Edited onPatch 2.1.2
[Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1
We all know that Beast Mastery is the king of DPS right now but there is a definite desire for Survival hunters since many of us are taking the sacrificial route for the benefit of our raid's overall DPS, (or a change of pace), or simply are interested in knowing if they should make the switch to this spec for raiding at all.
From testing Survival post 2.1 I've come to some conclusions from a few raids in SSC and TK.
WWS Logs for Hydross 2.1 kill:
Totals:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070522-Hydross2.1/
Breakdown:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070522.../howitzer.html
971 DPS sustained over a 10 minute period with an average 40% crit rate, (lotp was present for 1/2 the fight roughly). While I do agree that BM is probably the higher DPS on a single target if the pet can remain alive and attacking for the duration, the MM spec does not seem to have the umph that it used to after this patch. According to the logs, Survival gave me (Mana) 6,750 returned from Thrill of the Hunt in that Hydross fight which is the equivalent of 2 fel mana potions for free, not to mention the 200~ AP buff to the entire raid from Expose weakness being up almost 100% of the time.
My personal issue is spec as I can't warrant getting master tactician in its current form. I believe its not worth it over the benefit of improved aspect of the hawk, (maybe this is ignorance). My question is for the survival hunters here or those that are more prone to theorycrafting as to which talent can provide higher dps output, (has anyone crunched the numbers comparing the two talents)? I believe there is a crit threshold once you hit roughly 33% unbuffed where more isn't necessarily better. The only thing I really see as the most valuable aspect of this tree is EW and ToTH. My experiences with Readiness have been somewhat lackluster.
From testing Survival post 2.1 I've come to some conclusions from a few raids in SSC and TK.
WWS Logs for Hydross 2.1 kill:
Totals:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070522-Hydross2.1/
Breakdown:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070522.../howitzer.html
971 DPS sustained over a 10 minute period with an average 40% crit rate, (lotp was present for 1/2 the fight roughly). While I do agree that BM is probably the higher DPS on a single target if the pet can remain alive and attacking for the duration, the MM spec does not seem to have the umph that it used to after this patch. According to the logs, Survival gave me (Mana) 6,750 returned from Thrill of the Hunt in that Hydross fight which is the equivalent of 2 fel mana potions for free, not to mention the 200~ AP buff to the entire raid from Expose weakness being up almost 100% of the time.
My personal issue is spec as I can't warrant getting master tactician in its current form. I believe its not worth it over the benefit of improved aspect of the hawk, (maybe this is ignorance). My question is for the survival hunters here or those that are more prone to theorycrafting as to which talent can provide higher dps output, (has anyone crunched the numbers comparing the two talents)? I believe there is a crit threshold once you hit roughly 33% unbuffed where more isn't necessarily better. The only thing I really see as the most valuable aspect of this tree is EW and ToTH. My experiences with Readiness have been somewhat lackluster.
Last edited by Howitzer : 07/09/07 at 2:09 PM.
I believe there's already a thread discussion survival-specced hunters, along with several of the already-existing threads containing specks of discussion here and there. You might want to post this in one of those, instead of creating a brand new one. Survival's damage is always going to be contingent upon the amount of physical DPS present in the raid, but it is pretty apparent that the increased DPS from the other people, along with the increase in your own DPS, at least equals the damage loss from not being Marksmanship specced. It probably surpasses it. In addition to its superior damage, BM also gives its party a 3% damage increase, regardless of damage type. That can easily add an additional 100-150 DPS to the raid as a whole, depending upon the composition of your group.
That being said, Master Tactician is a waste of points. Your best bet is to put enough points (36) into Survival to get Expose Weakness, then leaving the tree entirely for Mortal Shots. Those last five points would be up to your discretion, although most would probably dump them in IAotH for "pure DPS" reasons. You could very easily justify spending those points to get Scatter Shot, Barrage, and Wyvern Sting instead. That's what I would do. =P
That being said, Master Tactician is a waste of points. Your best bet is to put enough points (36) into Survival to get Expose Weakness, then leaving the tree entirely for Mortal Shots. Those last five points would be up to your discretion, although most would probably dump them in IAotH for "pure DPS" reasons. You could very easily justify spending those points to get Scatter Shot, Barrage, and Wyvern Sting instead. That's what I would do. =P
Yeah, but is 5 points in IAotH > 5 in MT? I don't think anyone's covered this explicitly. I believe the math's been done awhile back to show that with the weapons most people use, MT is equivalent to just over 5% crit.
Right now, if you opt to max TotH and EW instead of getting focused fire, it looks like you've got three choices:
utility(wyvern, barrage or resourcefulness, ss), damage(5/5 IAotH), or damage option 2(5/5 MT).
Since crit %'s for survival hunters seem to vary quite a bit, and crit becomes less useful as your crit rate increase(as I understand it), it'd be nice to figure out if ~5% crit will be better than IAotH at 30%, and if it still will when you're at 45% crit.
Also, just came up with an idea. For those of you that don't care for TotH because you have the consumables and party comp to cover your mana needs, what about a 29/32 build?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZVVdRVzhLZchhRdfMhV0b
It gives 4% from RWS, Barrage, and Scatter shot, vs say a 7/20/34 or 7/21/33 build which will have Focused Fire(2% + KC bonus) and IAotH. To me at least, it seems like a posibly alternative, especially if IAotH is messing up your rotation at all.
Right now, if you opt to max TotH and EW instead of getting focused fire, it looks like you've got three choices:
utility(wyvern, barrage or resourcefulness, ss), damage(5/5 IAotH), or damage option 2(5/5 MT).
Since crit %'s for survival hunters seem to vary quite a bit, and crit becomes less useful as your crit rate increase(as I understand it), it'd be nice to figure out if ~5% crit will be better than IAotH at 30%, and if it still will when you're at 45% crit.
Also, just came up with an idea. For those of you that don't care for TotH because you have the consumables and party comp to cover your mana needs, what about a 29/32 build?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZVVdRVzhLZchhRdfMhV0b
It gives 4% from RWS, Barrage, and Scatter shot, vs say a 7/20/34 or 7/21/33 build which will have Focused Fire(2% + KC bonus) and IAotH. To me at least, it seems like a posibly alternative, especially if IAotH is messing up your rotation at all.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Thats what I'm wondering. If the crit rate is at 35 unbuffed and guessing 40% or so fully buffed / potted, then isn't MT almost totally useless? Then would the IAoTH be a greater dps boost than to pop points into barrage etc? And Gore, I just found thread [Hunter] The Survivor, but sadly there is no real information in there that breaks down the numbers.
Last edited by Howitzer : 05/26/07 at 10:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by Howitzer
Thats what I'm wondering. If the crit rate is at 35 unbuffed and guessing 40% or so fully buffed / potted, then isn't MT almost totally useless? Then would the IAoTH be a greater dps boost than to pop points into barrage etc? And Gore, I just found thread [Hunter] The Survivor, but sadly there is no real information in there that breaks down the numbers.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
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Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel
No numbers there yet, but hopefully that thread will blossom and bear the delicious fruit of theory. Now, if only people could back up anecdotal evidence with empirical and theoretical evidence in that thread, we'd be set.
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Here is Guyman's post on Survival and his thoughts on it:
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Hey Howitzer, I've been reading your various posts about both BM and Survival in 2.1. I was actually survival before 2.1 and I was able to do pretty solid DPS. I don't exactly have charts readily available, but I was around 700+ dps on Gruul using a 0/20/41 build. My gear was sub-par, mostly heavy-agi blues and a few epics. Unbuffed I was around 30-31% crit. In my opinion, I believe that once you reach an unbuffed level of 34-35% crit, improved hawk surpasses Master Tactician. Putting out more shots with that level of critting is going to be more effective than a few seconds of virtually guaranteed crits. I'm not sure myself if Master Tactician is really able to compare to improved aspect of the hawk, recently checking your armory, I see that you've respecced into 0/21/40 so hopefully you can verify that for yourself. Also, do you think 3 points in expose weakness is really necessary? I was thinking of just 2 points for my survival build, given the duration of the debuff, I figured, there would be a pretty good chance of reproccing it. |
Last edited by Howitzer : 05/26/07 at 12:18 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
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Originally Posted by Howitzer
Do you need a solid 45% crit to have EW up 100% of the time with only 2/3 EW?
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Other than that...
Uptime = 1 - (ChanceNotToProc^Attacks)
Uptime is a value between 0 and 1, ratio of how much it's up. Uptime*100 = Uptime in percentage.
Attacks = Number of attacks you make in 7 seconds. Most likely this is not an integer, i.e. you might have 5.5 shots each 7 second cycle. If so, averaging out the uptime for 5 and 6 should be a close enough approximation.
With 3/3, ChanceNotToProc = 1-Crit%
With 2/3, ChanceNotToProc = 1-( (Crit%)*(2/3) )
With 1/3, ChanceNotToProc = 1-( (Crit%)*(1/3) )
Some superfluous parenthesis there, but it's to avoid confusion. This, along with a rough knowledge of how often you attack, should be sufficient for determining your average uptime.
Last edited by Lactose : 05/26/07 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Defined 'Attacks'
In response to questions specifically related to iAotH, keep in mind that haste won't be an easy thing to model with Survival or Marks. Even with a relatively slow bow (say the 3.0 bow from Vashj), when iAotH procs you've got a 3.0/(1.15*1.15)=2.27 attack speed. At this speed you probably will be forced to change your rotation, meaning you can't simply model iAotH as a uptime percentage based haste increase (i.e. increase base damage by a percentage equal to the percentage haste). Given that Survival and Marks are probably using an on-availability 2 special per auto rotation, this complicates matters.
What I would suggest doing is determine the average dps for each of the two rotations (a rotation for use with quick shots and for use without quick shots) and then do a weighted average of the two based on uptime for QS. This won't be perfect, as it would be exceptionally difficult to have a smooth transition between the two without dropping a shot, but this would give you a theoretical maximum dps (i.e. the dps if you were a cyborg who never screwed up transitioning from one rotation to another). I don't have time this weekend to jump into much math, but Lactose's post gives the basic equation for uptime (which can be modified to work with iAotH very easily).
What I would suggest doing is determine the average dps for each of the two rotations (a rotation for use with quick shots and for use without quick shots) and then do a weighted average of the two based on uptime for QS. This won't be perfect, as it would be exceptionally difficult to have a smooth transition between the two without dropping a shot, but this would give you a theoretical maximum dps (i.e. the dps if you were a cyborg who never screwed up transitioning from one rotation to another). I don't have time this weekend to jump into much math, but Lactose's post gives the basic equation for uptime (which can be modified to work with iAotH very easily).
Rather interested in what people come up with, as a well geared hunter I just specced 21/marks and the rest in survival, so far it seems pretty good.
For the build search Jbale on the armory
For the build search Jbale on the armory
I'm not sure this had been covered. Tell me if it has. Between hunters, rogues, warriors, shamans, druids etc we say 9 physical DPS in a raid. Count the pets and tanks as another 1, so 10 Physical DPS.
So every point of agi on a SV hunter (1.25 agi with BoK and LR) becomes:
1.3 AP on the Hunter
3.125 AP on the group
So:
1 agi gives 4.425 AP
2 AP gives 2.08 AP (with survival instincts)
For the same item point cost.
Some quick math gives
http://thottbot.com/i25838 - Warden's Hawberk = 296.5 AP
better than:
http://thottbot.com/i29082 - Demonstalker T4 Chest = 294.0 AP
That's not even counting better crit on the Warden's. Gear choices are hard to make general statements about. But some quick math show to me that for raiding a lvl 62 rep reward is better than the first tier raiding set. It's pretty hard to justify sacrificing almost any agi for any other stat when looking at raid-wide DPS.
So every point of agi on a SV hunter (1.25 agi with BoK and LR) becomes:
1.3 AP on the Hunter
3.125 AP on the group
So:
1 agi gives 4.425 AP
2 AP gives 2.08 AP (with survival instincts)
For the same item point cost.
Some quick math gives
http://thottbot.com/i25838 - Warden's Hawberk = 296.5 AP
better than:
http://thottbot.com/i29082 - Demonstalker T4 Chest = 294.0 AP
That's not even counting better crit on the Warden's. Gear choices are hard to make general statements about. But some quick math show to me that for raiding a lvl 62 rep reward is better than the first tier raiding set. It's pretty hard to justify sacrificing almost any agi for any other stat when looking at raid-wide DPS.
Be wary of using situational raid composition buffs to justify gear choices. They are a consideration, yes, but not the sole determinant of gear worth (particularly as raid composition tends to be highly variable for many guilds). Personal dps is likely more important than 2.5 AP worth of situational raid buffs, in my opinion, but that's just me (boundary cases like that are really judgment calls, IMO, but if you can prove it with math that it's not be my guest). Frankly, if you make a gear decision based on raid composition you may find yourself in a bad position (if you're having a physical dps-light raid, your contributed dps has plummeted with the Warden's versus T4, in the scenario presented).
For example, if we used raid buffed damage as justification for raid spots, there'd be little reason not to take only shadow priests and warlocks.
For example, if we used raid buffed damage as justification for raid spots, there'd be little reason not to take only shadow priests and warlocks.
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Originally Posted by Norwest
I'm not sure this had been covered. Tell me if it has. Between hunters, rogues, warriors, shamans, druids etc we say 9 physical DPS in a raid. Count the pets and tanks as another 1, so 10 Physical DPS.
So every point of agi on a SV hunter (1.25 agi with BoK and LR) becomes: 1.3 AP on the Hunter 3.125 AP on the group So: 1 agi gives 4.425 AP 2 AP gives 2.08 AP (with survival instincts) For the same item point cost. Some quick math gives http://thottbot.com/i25838 - Warden's Hawberk = 296.5 AP better than: http://thottbot.com/i29082 - Demonstalker T4 Chest = 294.0 AP That's not even counting better crit on the Warden's. Gear choices are hard to make general statements about. But some quick math show to me that for raiding a lvl 62 rep reward is better than the first tier raiding set. It's pretty hard to justify sacrificing almost any agi for any other stat when looking at raid-wide DPS. |
And take EW uptime in consideration.
Third thing... gain of DPS from this AP varies among classes.
Forth tanks generate more threat, allowing for more dps.
Interesting thing to think about. (goes to wowhead, searching fro blue leather)
Yes some blues are far better than some epics. Im using BP of Rapid Striking... 68lvl AH item for 30g. And intended upgrade is Hydoss drop (ranger general) + minor hit rating changes in other gear. Mmm AH vs SSC.
2 interesting things:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31286 - BP of Rapid Striking
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29147 - Talbuk Hide Spaulders
Drawback of these blue items most of times is lack of stamina or other important stat. Dead DPS doesn't dps some like to say.
Edit:
And like Colonel said. Its situational, we had 2 rogues, 1 hunter and 4tanks on morgrim 2 weeks ago :/
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Originally Posted by Sapa
And like Colonel said. Its situational, we had 2 rogues, 1 hunter and 4tanks on morgrim 2 weeks ago :/
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I'm not sure why you guys are running with little melee, but I guess its a recuitment issue. Since the changes, rogues are worth 3 spots. So is an enhancement shaman and on some fights a dps warrior.
I'd say its largely a matter of group composition aswell.
The perfect melee groups is Dps warr, rogue, rogue, enh shaman, feral druid.
If you take much more than that as melee dps you'll have one of them sitting out of that group.
So while they might be worth more after the changes it just isnt that clearcut.
Sorry for a slight derail.
The perfect melee groups is Dps warr, rogue, rogue, enh shaman, feral druid.
If you take much more than that as melee dps you'll have one of them sitting out of that group.
So while they might be worth more after the changes it just isnt that clearcut.
Sorry for a slight derail.
I'm not so much concerned with WHY you'd be light on melee, just pointing out that when you have variable group composition you'll have issues with the model presented. Sometimes you just can't get everyone together and you are heavy on casters (scheduling, w/e). Totally didn't mean to derail this thread, but you have to be careful when you assume that you'll have X players that you're adding AP to, because that is something outside of your control.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Gear:
Gems
All normal sockets are assumed to be +10 Agility : [Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Alternatively you can use the +8 Agility version : [Delicate Living Ruby]
All Meta sockets are assumed to be +12 Agility : [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Some combination gems:
* [Glinting Noble Topaz] (Crafted)
* [Glinting Pyrestone] (Crafted)
* [Shifting Nightseye] (Crafted)
* [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] (Crafted)
Gear
Values listed are : (total value) : (base value+gems+socket bonus) [Item 'itemname' not found!]
1h melee :
15 : [Claw of the Netherwing Flight] (Quest)
19 : [Guile of Khoraazi] (Vendor)
20 : [Mounting Vengeance] (Sunwell trash)
21 : [Stellaris] (Mechanar)
21 : [Retainer's Blade] (Vendor)
21 : [Dagger of Bad Mojo] (Zul'Aman)
21 : [Claw of the Phoenix] (The Eye)
22 : [Messenger of Fate] (Black Temple)
23 : [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
24 : [Searing Sunblade] (Vendor)
25 : [Shiv of Exsanguination] (Sunwell)
25 : [Fang of Kalecgos] (Sunwell)
25 : [Netherbane] (The Eye)
26 : [Felsteel Longblade] (Crafted)
28 : 18+10 [Breeching Comet] (Sunwell)
28 : 18+10 [Item 'crux of the apocalypse' not found!] (Sunwell)
28 : [Blade of Infamy] (Hyjal)
30 : [Blade of the Unrequited] (Karazhan)
30 : 10+20 [Rage] (Zul'Aman)
32 : 12+20 [Umbral Shiv] (Zul'Aman)
2h melee :
26 : [Blackened Spear] (Vendor)
30 : [Item 'apolyon, the soul-render' not found!] (Sunwell)
35 : [Sonic Spear] (Shadow Labs)
40 : [Legacy] (Karazhan)
44 : [Lionheart Executioner] (Crafted)
49 : [Staff of Primal Fury] (ZA Hex lord)
51 : [Halberd of Desolation] (Black Temple - High Warlord Naj'entus)
54 : [Terokk's Quill] (Quest)
56 : [Deepforge Broadaxe] of Agility (World Drop)
59 : 39+20 [Trollbane] (Zul'Aman)
62 : 52+10 [Shivering Felspine] (Sunwell)
75 : [Stanchion of Primal Instinct] (Sunwell)
Head :
42 : 20+12+10 [Opportunist's Leather Helm]
54 : 32+12+10 [Mask of the Deceiver] (Vendor)
55 : 33+12+10 [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] (Arena)
57 : 35+12+10 [Demon Stalker Greathelm] (Karazhan)
59 : 37+12+10 [Merciless Gladiator's Chain Helm] (Arena)
60 : [Fiery Beholder Eye] of Agility
61 : 31+30 [Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight] (Quest)
61 : 39+12+10 [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] (BT)
62 : 40+12+10 [Rift Stalker Helm] (Serpentshrine Cavern)
64 : 42+12+10 [Forest Prowler's Helm] (Black Temple)
65 : 43+12+10 [Duplicitous Guise] (sunwell)
66 : 36+30 [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] (Zul'Aman)
67 : 45+12+10 [Gronnstalker's Helmet] (Hyjal)
70 : 40+30 [Grimgrin Faceguard] (Zul'Aman)
72 : 50+12+10 [Mask of the Fury Hunter] (Sunwell)
Neck :
18 : [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
20 : [Worgen Claw Necklace] (Karazhan)
20 : [Choker of Vile Intent] (Badge vendor)
21 : [Saberclaw Talisman] (Karazhan)
23 : [Earthen Mark of Razing] (Quest)
25 : [Prestor's Talisman of Connivery] (Blackwing Lair)
25 : [Clutch of Demise] (Sunwell)
26 : [Jagged Bark Pendant] (Botanica)
27 : [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] (The Eye)
41 : 21+20 [Necklace of the Deep] (Crafted)
Shoulder :
? : [Felstone Epaulets] of Agility
22 : [Mantle of the Tireless Tracker]
24 : [Beastmaw Pauldrons]
33 : 13+20 [Opportunist's Leather Spaulders]
33 : [Shoulderpads of Vehemence] (Sunwell)
35 : [Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer] (Sunwell)
38 : [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] (BT - Akama)
39 : [Beast-tamer's Shoulders] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
39 : [Mantle of Shadowy Embrace] (Blood Furnace)
43 : 23+20 [Pauldrons of Desolation]
48 : 28+20 [Item 'sunrage shoulderpads' not found!] (Sunwell)
45 : 33+10+2 [Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
45 : 25+20 [Shoulderpads of Assassination] (Sethekk halls)
45 : 25+20 [Beast Lord Mantle] (Steamvault)
46 : 26+20 [Rift Stalker Mantle] (TKE - Void reaver)
47 : 27+20 [Gladiator's Chain Spaulders] (pvp)
48 : 28+20 [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] (ZA)
52 : 32+20 [Merciless Gladiator's Chain Spaulders] (pvp)
54 : 34+20 [Gronnstalker's Spaulders] (BT - Shaz)
55 : 35+20 [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Spaulders]
58 : 38+20 [Demontooth Shoulderpads] (Sunwell)
63 : 40+20+3 [Mantle of the Golden Forest] (Sunwell)
Cloak :
14 : [Delicate Green Poncho]
15 : [Auchenai Death Shroud]
15 : [Crystalweave Cape]
16 : [Terokk's Might]
20 : [Cloak of Fiends] (ZA)
21 : [Cloak of Malice]
23 : [Blood Knight War Cloak] (Badge vendor)
24 : [Drape of the Dark Reavers] (KZ - Aran)
25 : [Cloak of the Craft]
28 : [Thalassian Wildercloak] (TK - Kael)
32 : [Amber Cape] of Agility
33 : [Illidari Cloak] of Agility
Chest :
45 : [Tunic of the Ranger Lord]
49 : [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] ( Hyjal archimonde)
50 : 20+30 [Opportunist's Leather Tunic]
54 : 24+30 [Hauberk of the War Bringer]
54 : 44+10 [Tunic of the Dark Hour]
56 : 26+30 [Felstalker Breastplate]
56 : 26+30 [Demon Stalker Harness]
57 : 27+30 [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Armor] (ovo)
57 : 47+10 [Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard]
60 : [Drakescale Hauberk] of Agility
61 : 31+30 [Merciless Gladiator's Chain Armor] (pvp)
66 : 36+30 [Nether Shadow Tunic] (BT - Supremus)
66 : 36+30 [Ranger-General's Chestguard] (SSC - Hydross)
69 : 39+30 [Warden's Hauberk] (Vendor)
70 : 40+30 [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted)
70 : 40+30 [Gronnstalker's Chestguard] (BT - illidan)
72 : 42+30 [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] (Sunwell)
72 : 42+30 [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (Sunwell)
73 : 44+30 [Embrace of the Phoenix] (Sunwell)
74 : 44+30 [Harness of Carnal Instinct] (Sunwell)
Wrists :
? : [Ravager's Bands] of Agility
18 : [Steadying Bracers]
19 : [Wraps of Precise Flight]
27 : 17+10 [Master Assassin Wristwraps] (Badge vendor)
28 : 18+10 [Felstalker Bracers] (Crafted)
28 : 18+10 [Marshal's Chain Bracers] (pvp)
30 : 20+10 [Veteran's Chain Bracers] (pvp)
30 : 20+10 [Shard-bound Bracers]
33 : [Illidari Wristguards] of Agility
33 : 23+10 [Vindicator's Chain Bracers] (pvp)
34 : 24+10 [Vambraces of Ending] (TKE - Solarian)
35 : 25+10 [Bracers of the Pathfinder] (Hy - Rage winterchill)
35 : 22+10+2 [Gronnstalker's Bracers] (Sunwell)
38 : 28+10 [Insidious Bands] (BT - Teron gorefiend)
Hands :
28 : [Demon Stalker Gauntlets]
? : [Nethersteel Gauntlets] of Agility
40 : 20+20 [Gauntlets of Sniping]
44 : 24+20 [Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer]
44 : 34+10 [Gauntlets of Rapidity]
45 : 25+20 [Beast Lord Handguards]
45 : 35+10 [Gronnstalker's Gloves] (Hy)
50 : 30+20 [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
50 : 30+20 [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix]
52 : 32+20 [Wastewalker Gloves]
54 : 34+20 [Gloves of the Forest Drifter] (Sunwell)
55 : 35+20 [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] (KZ)
61 : 41+20 [Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm] (Sunwell)
Waist :
25 : [Girdle of the Prowler]
30 : [Veteran's Chain Girdle]
33 : [Vindicator's Chain Girdle]
35 : 25+10 [Bladeangel's Money Belt] (ZA)
37 : 17+20 [Belt of the Black Eagle] (Crafted)
38 : 18+20 [Felstalker Belt]
38 : [Boneweave Girdle]
39 : 29+10 [Gronnstalker's Belt] (Sunwell)
41 : 21+20 [Dunewind Sash]
41 : 18+20+3 [Girdle of Treachery] (KZ)
44 : 34+10 [Belt of the Silent Path]
49 : 29+20 [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] (Hyjal)
49 : 29+20 [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (SSC - Vashj)
52 : 32+20 [Belt of Deep Shadow] (Crafted)
55 : [Lurker's Belt] of Agility
Legs :
34 : [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Leggings]
40 : [Demon Stalker Greaves]
49 : 37+10+2 [Gronnstalker's Leggings]
60 : [Chimaerascale Legguards] of Agility
61 : 31+30 [Wastewalker Leggings]
62 : 32+30 [Skulker's Greaves]
63 : 43+20 [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer]
64 : 44+20 [Leggings of the Pursuit]
67 : 37+30 [Void Reaver Greaves] (TKE - VR)
71 : 37+30+4 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]
72 : 42+30 [Bow-stitched Leggings]
75 : 41+30+4 [Leggings of the Immortal Night] (Sunwell)
76 : 46+30 [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] (Sunwell)
87 : 57+30 [Starstalker Legguards] (Sunwell)
Feet :
? : [Glider's Sabatons] of Agility
? : [Abyssal Mail Greaves] of Agility
27 : [Softstep Boots of Tracking] (BT)
33 : [Vindicator's Chain Sabatons] (pvp)
40 : 30+10 [Gronnstalker's Boots] (Sunwell)
46 : 26+20 [Fiend Slayer Boots] (KZ)
48 : 28+20 [Quickstrider Moccasins]
49 : 29+20 [Edgewalker Longboots] (KZ - Moroes)
49 : 29+20 [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] (Badge vendor)
50 : 30+20 [Shadowmaster's Boots]
53 : 33+20 [Star-Strider Boots]
53 : 33+20 [Cobra-Lash Boots] (SSC - Vashj)
Finger :
20 : [Garona's Signet Ring] (KZ - Curator)
20 : [Ravenclaw Band]
21 : [Truestrike Ring] (World drop)
22 : [Averinn's Ring of Slaying]
24 : [Ring of Lethality] (SSC - Hydross)
25 : [Pathfinder's Band]
25 : [Delicate Eternium Ring]
27 : [Band of Eternity] (Hy Rep)
28 : [Signet of Primal Wrath] (ZA)
29 : Sunwell Badge melee ring
30 : [Hard Khorium Band] (Crafted)
32 : [Amber Band] of Agility
33 : [Arcane Loop] of Agility
Trinket :
9 : [Figurine - Dark Iron Scorpid] (Crafted)
15 : [Alchemist's Stone] (Crafted)
25 : [Badge of Tenacity] (Blade's Edge)
Ranged :
12 : [Marksman's Bow] / [Veteran's Musket] (Vendor)
12 : [Crystalline Crossbow] (Vendor)
14 : [Wrathtide Longbow] (Steamvault)
14 : [Ornate Khorium Rifle] (Crafted)
15 : [Adamantine Repeater] (Blood Furnace)
15 : [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] (Karazhan)
17 : [Item 'thori'dal, the stars' fury' not found!] (Sunwell)
18 : [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas] (Sunwell)
19 : [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] (Karazhan)
20 : [Arcanite Steam-Pistol] (The Eye)
21 : [Legionkiller] (BT)
36 : 16+20 [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] (Doomwalker)
Totals from gear : 778
------------------------
Enchants:
1h melee : +40 : +20+20 : +20 Major Agility -or- 2h melee : +35 Greater Agiity
Legs : +12 [Nethercleft Leg Armor]
Feet : +12 [Formula: Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
Fingers : +8 : +4+4 [Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
Hands : +15 [Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
Cloak : +12 [Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
Chest : +6 [Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
Wrist : +4 [Enchant Bracer - Stats]
Head : +8 [Lesser Arcanum of Voracity]
Total from enchants : 117
------------------------
Base stats:
Base at lvl 70 : ~150 (varies slightly per race)
--------------------------
Buffs:
Buff : +89 : Improved Agility Totem (Shaman)
Buff : +19 : Improved Mark of the Wild (Druid)
Buff : +15 : Songflower Serenade (Felwood)
Buff : +50 : Spirit of Zandalar (Zone buff)
Potion : +35 : [Elixir of Major Agility] (Battle Elixir)
Food : +20 : [Oronok's Tuber of Agility] / [Warp Burger] / [Grilled Mudfish]
Scroll : +20 : [Scroll of Agility V]
Buffs total : 248
-----------------------------
Total + Modifiers:
Buff : +15% : Lightning Reflexess (*1.15) (Talent)
Buff : +10% : Blessing of Kings (*1.10) (Paladin)
Buff : +10% : Sayge's Dark Fortune of Agility (*1.10) (Darkmoon Faire)
Grand total : (778 + 117 + 150 + 248) * 1.15 * 1.10 * 1.10 = ~1799,2095 Agility
--
Related posts :
* Random Ravings of Warcraft: Survival hunter gear
Gems
All normal sockets are assumed to be +10 Agility : [Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Alternatively you can use the +8 Agility version : [Delicate Living Ruby]
All Meta sockets are assumed to be +12 Agility : [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Some combination gems:
* [Glinting Noble Topaz] (Crafted)
* [Glinting Pyrestone] (Crafted)
* [Shifting Nightseye] (Crafted)
* [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] (Crafted)
Gear
Values listed are : (total value) : (base value+gems+socket bonus) [Item 'itemname' not found!]
1h melee :
15 : [Claw of the Netherwing Flight] (Quest)
19 : [Guile of Khoraazi] (Vendor)
20 : [Mounting Vengeance] (Sunwell trash)
21 : [Stellaris] (Mechanar)
21 : [Retainer's Blade] (Vendor)
21 : [Dagger of Bad Mojo] (Zul'Aman)
21 : [Claw of the Phoenix] (The Eye)
22 : [Messenger of Fate] (Black Temple)
23 : [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
24 : [Searing Sunblade] (Vendor)
25 : [Shiv of Exsanguination] (Sunwell)
25 : [Fang of Kalecgos] (Sunwell)
25 : [Netherbane] (The Eye)
26 : [Felsteel Longblade] (Crafted)
28 : 18+10 [Breeching Comet] (Sunwell)
28 : 18+10 [Item 'crux of the apocalypse' not found!] (Sunwell)
28 : [Blade of Infamy] (Hyjal)
30 : [Blade of the Unrequited] (Karazhan)
30 : 10+20 [Rage] (Zul'Aman)
32 : 12+20 [Umbral Shiv] (Zul'Aman)
2h melee :
26 : [Blackened Spear] (Vendor)
30 : [Item 'apolyon, the soul-render' not found!] (Sunwell)
35 : [Sonic Spear] (Shadow Labs)
40 : [Legacy] (Karazhan)
44 : [Lionheart Executioner] (Crafted)
49 : [Staff of Primal Fury] (ZA Hex lord)
51 : [Halberd of Desolation] (Black Temple - High Warlord Naj'entus)
54 : [Terokk's Quill] (Quest)
56 : [Deepforge Broadaxe] of Agility (World Drop)
59 : 39+20 [Trollbane] (Zul'Aman)
62 : 52+10 [Shivering Felspine] (Sunwell)
75 : [Stanchion of Primal Instinct] (Sunwell)
Head :
42 : 20+12+10 [Opportunist's Leather Helm]
54 : 32+12+10 [Mask of the Deceiver] (Vendor)
55 : 33+12+10 [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] (Arena)
57 : 35+12+10 [Demon Stalker Greathelm] (Karazhan)
59 : 37+12+10 [Merciless Gladiator's Chain Helm] (Arena)
60 : [Fiery Beholder Eye] of Agility
61 : 31+30 [Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight] (Quest)
61 : 39+12+10 [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] (BT)
62 : 40+12+10 [Rift Stalker Helm] (Serpentshrine Cavern)
64 : 42+12+10 [Forest Prowler's Helm] (Black Temple)
65 : 43+12+10 [Duplicitous Guise] (sunwell)
66 : 36+30 [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] (Zul'Aman)
67 : 45+12+10 [Gronnstalker's Helmet] (Hyjal)
70 : 40+30 [Grimgrin Faceguard] (Zul'Aman)
72 : 50+12+10 [Mask of the Fury Hunter] (Sunwell)
Neck :
18 : [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
20 : [Worgen Claw Necklace] (Karazhan)
20 : [Choker of Vile Intent] (Badge vendor)
21 : [Saberclaw Talisman] (Karazhan)
23 : [Earthen Mark of Razing] (Quest)
25 : [Prestor's Talisman of Connivery] (Blackwing Lair)
25 : [Clutch of Demise] (Sunwell)
26 : [Jagged Bark Pendant] (Botanica)
27 : [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] (The Eye)
41 : 21+20 [Necklace of the Deep] (Crafted)
Shoulder :
? : [Felstone Epaulets] of Agility
22 : [Mantle of the Tireless Tracker]
24 : [Beastmaw Pauldrons]
33 : 13+20 [Opportunist's Leather Spaulders]
33 : [Shoulderpads of Vehemence] (Sunwell)
35 : [Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer] (Sunwell)
38 : [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] (BT - Akama)
39 : [Beast-tamer's Shoulders] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
39 : [Mantle of Shadowy Embrace] (Blood Furnace)
43 : 23+20 [Pauldrons of Desolation]
48 : 28+20 [Item 'sunrage shoulderpads' not found!] (Sunwell)
45 : 33+10+2 [Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
45 : 25+20 [Shoulderpads of Assassination] (Sethekk halls)
45 : 25+20 [Beast Lord Mantle] (Steamvault)
46 : 26+20 [Rift Stalker Mantle] (TKE - Void reaver)
47 : 27+20 [Gladiator's Chain Spaulders] (pvp)
48 : 28+20 [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] (ZA)
52 : 32+20 [Merciless Gladiator's Chain Spaulders] (pvp)
54 : 34+20 [Gronnstalker's Spaulders] (BT - Shaz)
55 : 35+20 [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Spaulders]
58 : 38+20 [Demontooth Shoulderpads] (Sunwell)
63 : 40+20+3 [Mantle of the Golden Forest] (Sunwell)
Cloak :
14 : [Delicate Green Poncho]
15 : [Auchenai Death Shroud]
15 : [Crystalweave Cape]
16 : [Terokk's Might]
20 : [Cloak of Fiends] (ZA)
21 : [Cloak of Malice]
23 : [Blood Knight War Cloak] (Badge vendor)
24 : [Drape of the Dark Reavers] (KZ - Aran)
25 : [Cloak of the Craft]
28 : [Thalassian Wildercloak] (TK - Kael)
32 : [Amber Cape] of Agility
33 : [Illidari Cloak] of Agility
Chest :
45 : [Tunic of the Ranger Lord]
49 : [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] ( Hyjal archimonde)
50 : 20+30 [Opportunist's Leather Tunic]
54 : 24+30 [Hauberk of the War Bringer]
54 : 44+10 [Tunic of the Dark Hour]
56 : 26+30 [Felstalker Breastplate]
56 : 26+30 [Demon Stalker Harness]
57 : 27+30 [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Armor] (ovo)
57 : 47+10 [Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard]
60 : [Drakescale Hauberk] of Agility
61 : 31+30 [Merciless Gladiator's Chain Armor] (pvp)
66 : 36+30 [Nether Shadow Tunic] (BT - Supremus)
66 : 36+30 [Ranger-General's Chestguard] (SSC - Hydross)
69 : 39+30 [Warden's Hauberk] (Vendor)
70 : 40+30 [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted)
70 : 40+30 [Gronnstalker's Chestguard] (BT - illidan)
72 : 42+30 [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] (Sunwell)
72 : 42+30 [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (Sunwell)
73 : 44+30 [Embrace of the Phoenix] (Sunwell)
74 : 44+30 [Harness of Carnal Instinct] (Sunwell)
Wrists :
? : [Ravager's Bands] of Agility
18 : [Steadying Bracers]
19 : [Wraps of Precise Flight]
27 : 17+10 [Master Assassin Wristwraps] (Badge vendor)
28 : 18+10 [Felstalker Bracers] (Crafted)
28 : 18+10 [Marshal's Chain Bracers] (pvp)
30 : 20+10 [Veteran's Chain Bracers] (pvp)
30 : 20+10 [Shard-bound Bracers]
33 : [Illidari Wristguards] of Agility
33 : 23+10 [Vindicator's Chain Bracers] (pvp)
34 : 24+10 [Vambraces of Ending] (TKE - Solarian)
35 : 25+10 [Bracers of the Pathfinder] (Hy - Rage winterchill)
35 : 22+10+2 [Gronnstalker's Bracers] (Sunwell)
38 : 28+10 [Insidious Bands] (BT - Teron gorefiend)
Hands :
28 : [Demon Stalker Gauntlets]
? : [Nethersteel Gauntlets] of Agility
40 : 20+20 [Gauntlets of Sniping]
44 : 24+20 [Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer]
44 : 34+10 [Gauntlets of Rapidity]
45 : 25+20 [Beast Lord Handguards]
45 : 35+10 [Gronnstalker's Gloves] (Hy)
50 : 30+20 [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
50 : 30+20 [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix]
52 : 32+20 [Wastewalker Gloves]
54 : 34+20 [Gloves of the Forest Drifter] (Sunwell)
55 : 35+20 [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] (KZ)
61 : 41+20 [Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm] (Sunwell)
Waist :
25 : [Girdle of the Prowler]
30 : [Veteran's Chain Girdle]
33 : [Vindicator's Chain Girdle]
35 : 25+10 [Bladeangel's Money Belt] (ZA)
37 : 17+20 [Belt of the Black Eagle] (Crafted)
38 : 18+20 [Felstalker Belt]
38 : [Boneweave Girdle]
39 : 29+10 [Gronnstalker's Belt] (Sunwell)
41 : 21+20 [Dunewind Sash]
41 : 18+20+3 [Girdle of Treachery] (KZ)
44 : 34+10 [Belt of the Silent Path]
49 : 29+20 [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] (Hyjal)
49 : 29+20 [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (SSC - Vashj)
52 : 32+20 [Belt of Deep Shadow] (Crafted)
55 : [Lurker's Belt] of Agility
Legs :
34 : [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Leggings]
40 : [Demon Stalker Greaves]
49 : 37+10+2 [Gronnstalker's Leggings]
60 : [Chimaerascale Legguards] of Agility
61 : 31+30 [Wastewalker Leggings]
62 : 32+30 [Skulker's Greaves]
63 : 43+20 [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer]
64 : 44+20 [Leggings of the Pursuit]
67 : 37+30 [Void Reaver Greaves] (TKE - VR)
71 : 37+30+4 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]
72 : 42+30 [Bow-stitched Leggings]
75 : 41+30+4 [Leggings of the Immortal Night] (Sunwell)
76 : 46+30 [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] (Sunwell)
87 : 57+30 [Starstalker Legguards] (Sunwell)
Feet :
? : [Glider's Sabatons] of Agility
? : [Abyssal Mail Greaves] of Agility
27 : [Softstep Boots of Tracking] (BT)
33 : [Vindicator's Chain Sabatons] (pvp)
40 : 30+10 [Gronnstalker's Boots] (Sunwell)
46 : 26+20 [Fiend Slayer Boots] (KZ)
48 : 28+20 [Quickstrider Moccasins]
49 : 29+20 [Edgewalker Longboots] (KZ - Moroes)
49 : 29+20 [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] (Badge vendor)
50 : 30+20 [Shadowmaster's Boots]
53 : 33+20 [Star-Strider Boots]
53 : 33+20 [Cobra-Lash Boots] (SSC - Vashj)
Finger :
20 : [Garona's Signet Ring] (KZ - Curator)
20 : [Ravenclaw Band]
21 : [Truestrike Ring] (World drop)
22 : [Averinn's Ring of Slaying]
24 : [Ring of Lethality] (SSC - Hydross)
25 : [Pathfinder's Band]
25 : [Delicate Eternium Ring]
27 : [Band of Eternity] (Hy Rep)
28 : [Signet of Primal Wrath] (ZA)
29 : Sunwell Badge melee ring
30 : [Hard Khorium Band] (Crafted)
32 : [Amber Band] of Agility
33 : [Arcane Loop] of Agility
Trinket :
9 : [Figurine - Dark Iron Scorpid] (Crafted)
15 : [Alchemist's Stone] (Crafted)
25 : [Badge of Tenacity] (Blade's Edge)
Ranged :
12 : [Marksman's Bow] / [Veteran's Musket] (Vendor)
12 : [Crystalline Crossbow] (Vendor)
14 : [Wrathtide Longbow] (Steamvault)
14 : [Ornate Khorium Rifle] (Crafted)
15 : [Adamantine Repeater] (Blood Furnace)
15 : [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] (Karazhan)
17 : [Item 'thori'dal, the stars' fury' not found!] (Sunwell)
18 : [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas] (Sunwell)
19 : [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] (Karazhan)
20 : [Arcanite Steam-Pistol] (The Eye)
21 : [Legionkiller] (BT)
36 : 16+20 [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] (Doomwalker)
Totals from gear : 778
------------------------
Enchants:
1h melee : +40 : +20+20 : +20 Major Agility -or- 2h melee : +35 Greater Agiity
Legs : +12 [Nethercleft Leg Armor]
Feet : +12 [Formula: Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
Fingers : +8 : +4+4 [Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
Hands : +15 [Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
Cloak : +12 [Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
Chest : +6 [Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
Wrist : +4 [Enchant Bracer - Stats]
Head : +8 [Lesser Arcanum of Voracity]
Total from enchants : 117
------------------------
Base stats:
Base at lvl 70 : ~150 (varies slightly per race)
--------------------------
Buffs:
Buff : +89 : Improved Agility Totem (Shaman)
Buff : +19 : Improved Mark of the Wild (Druid)
Buff : +15 : Songflower Serenade (Felwood)
Buff : +50 : Spirit of Zandalar (Zone buff)
Potion : +35 : [Elixir of Major Agility] (Battle Elixir)
Food : +20 : [Oronok's Tuber of Agility] / [Warp Burger] / [Grilled Mudfish]
Scroll : +20 : [Scroll of Agility V]
Buffs total : 248
-----------------------------
Total + Modifiers:
Buff : +15% : Lightning Reflexess (*1.15) (Talent)
Buff : +10% : Blessing of Kings (*1.10) (Paladin)
Buff : +10% : Sayge's Dark Fortune of Agility (*1.10) (Darkmoon Faire)
Grand total : (778 + 117 + 150 + 248) * 1.15 * 1.10 * 1.10 = ~1799,2095 Agility
--
Related posts :
* Random Ravings of Warcraft: Survival hunter gear
Last edited by Zurgat : 03/31/08 at 5:00 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Zurgat
personally i'm not sure a survival hunter will be a great benefit, unless you have a lot of melee in the raid. i'd prefer a BM hunter really. but that can just be a matter of opinion. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Lumi
I'm not sure why you guys are running with little melee, but I guess its a recuitment issue. Since the changes, rogues are worth 3 spots. So is an enhancement shaman and on some fights a dps warrior.
|
Gruul can be tricky if you have cave-ins on the melee. it also adds extra risk for the tank.
they produce loads of damage, but some of our mages can keep up fairly well.
its very situational though. but at least for gruul,, i prefer to keep the amount of melee to a minimum.
personally i'm not sure a survival hunter will be a great benefit, unless you have a lot of melee in the raid.
i'd prefer a BM hunter really. but that can just be a matter of opinion.
|
Originally Posted by Superkaj
I'd say its largely a matter of group composition aswell.
The perfect melee groups is Dps warr, rogue, rogue, enh shaman, feral druid. If you take much more than that as melee dps you'll have one of them sitting out of that group. So while they might be worth more after the changes it just isnt that clearcut. Sorry for a slight derail. |
and 1 with the tanks, offtanks, a warlock for imp buff, and some extras.
|
Originally Posted by Howitzer
Its kinda funny hearing that from a rogue. I'd figure you'd prefer an extra 200~ AP on your target compared to what a BM hunter offers which is nothing if you aren't grouped with him. I think Survival is pretty damn gear dependent and isn't going to shine unless you've done your homework.
|
The new 2.1 buff to Hunter's Mark gives a nice ammount of AP to the raid to begin with.
But, what kind of gear are we looking at for +-200 AP, and with what kind of uptime for that buff? your gear + agi totem, perhaps a better melee weapon, myeh, i'd say 200 is definitely possible, perhaps a bit more even.
i don't think your average ex. MM hunter will have anywhere near enough Agi gear to get such a large turnout from most epics though. but it might be worth considering on a longer term.
As i tend to lead raids i usually look for sticking BM hunters with a few mages + shadowpriest, or another BM hunter. 5x 2% damage to our top damage dealers generally adds more damage than (at this time) 100-150 AP to the melee classes would. it's very situational / how many melee are in the raid to begin with though.
Ferocious inspiration stacks with other hunters in the group, while find weakness only takes the highest one.. but 1 hunter should be plenty with that talent spec.
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/03/07 at 9:09 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Zurgat
i Don't think you'll hear that from many rogues, but i have a lvl 70 hunter as well.
The new 2.1 buff to Hunter's Mark gives a nice ammount of AP to the raid to begin with. But, what kind of gear are we looking at for +-200 AP, and with what kind of uptime for that buff? your gear + agi totem, perhaps a better melee weapon, myeh, i'd say 200 is definitely possible, perhaps a bit more even. i don't think your average ex. MM hunter will have anywhere near enough Agi gear to get such a large turnout from most epics though. but it might be worth considering on a longer term. As i tend to lead raids i usually look for sticking BM hunters with a few mages + shadowpriest, or another BM hunter. 5x 2% damage to our top damage dealers generally adds more damage than (at this time) 100-150 AP to the melee classes would. it's very situational / how many melee are in the raid to begin with though. Ferocious inspiration stacks with other hunters in the group, while find weakness only takes the highest one.. but 1 hunter should be plenty with that talent spec. |
Yes, expose weakness doesn't stack like ferocious inspriration does. Technically, if you had 5 BM hunters in a group that would be some pretty sick damage output. Too bad 40 man raids are gone gone forever and you'll be hard pressed to ever see 5 hunters in a 25 man unless you're raiding Hogger. 200 AP from EW buff is very easy if you're 800 agi raid buffed which is very possible and easy to get.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Howitzer
I hate to break it to you, mate, but the 2.1 hunters mark buff is a buff only to the hunter and not the raid. Putting 5 points in improved Hunter's mark still only gives 110 ap to the raid, but stacking the mark with shots gives up to 440 "RAP" to "you" and any other Hunters shooting the target. Would be nice though if it wasn't that way right? eheh
|
"base" attack power.
too bad, lol
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/03/07 at 9:09 AM.
i suppose my last and biggest question is.. at what point should you stop stacking agi or what would a solid blance of agi / ap / crit be for a survival hunter? whats the best ration of "this" to "that" for dps?
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
So my question is, is there any viable reason to stay marksman now (2.1) and if so where is a good place I could start with looking to balance my gems / enchants? (PVE DPS)
I would LIKE to stay marksman, if it is still a max dps spec, or can be. Not having to worry about my pet in Magtheridon raids is a HUGE relief considering all the tasks I'm put on.
My Armory:http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...utus&n=Luminae
Is there anything that can save my build from the too-little crit woes?
I would LIKE to stay marksman, if it is still a max dps spec, or can be. Not having to worry about my pet in Magtheridon raids is a HUGE relief considering all the tasks I'm put on.
My Armory:http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...utus&n=Luminae
Is there anything that can save my build from the too-little crit woes?
Last edited by Tonezorz : 05/30/07 at 4:02 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Tonezorz
So my question is, is there any viable reason to stay marksman now (2.1) and if so where is a good place I could start with looking to balance my gems / enchants? (PVE DPS)
I would LIKE to stay marksman, if it is still a max dps spec, or can be. Not having to worry about my pet in Magtheridon raids is a HUGE relief considering all the tasks I'm put on. My Armory:http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...utus&n=Luminae Is there anything that can save my build from the too-little crit woes? |
If you need more crit,
- you can put 35 agi on your spear,
- 15 agi on gloves.
- get a +28 crit rating scope on your bow.
- cat's swiftness or +12 agi on boots.
- use bladefist's breadth instead of the poison vial.
- replace the violet signet with garona's once it drops for you.
- improve your aldor reputation for better shoulder enchant.
that should get you above 20% at the very least.
You seem to have very high "hit" rating, is this intentional?
i was always under the impression that hunters only need about 8-9% hit, in order to never miss.
(like 0.01%)
Regarding MM viability:
MM does slightly more DPS than it did before 2.1. Survival and BM both got larger bumps. BM will handily out damage MM. All that adds up to going BM if you want to focus on your personal DPS or lack the agility gear to do Survival properly.
Regarding gems:
8 agility gems have been and will continue to be the best gems for any spec. Multiple people have posted multiple times in multiple threads about this.
Edit:
As the poster above me said, you have WAY too much hit rating. If you are determined to max out your hit rating you only need enough for 8.6%. My personal opinion is that most hunters over value hit rating, I prefer crit.
MM does slightly more DPS than it did before 2.1. Survival and BM both got larger bumps. BM will handily out damage MM. All that adds up to going BM if you want to focus on your personal DPS or lack the agility gear to do Survival properly.
Regarding gems:
8 agility gems have been and will continue to be the best gems for any spec. Multiple people have posted multiple times in multiple threads about this.
Edit:
As the poster above me said, you have WAY too much hit rating. If you are determined to max out your hit rating you only need enough for 8.6%. My personal opinion is that most hunters over value hit rating, I prefer crit.
Thanks for the replies. The massive hit rating really wasn't done on purpose. I just stacked AP gear and it came along with it. Would it be wise to just put 8 agil gems into every socket I can?
I also have a Crystalforged War Axe with 35 agility on it already, so I suppose that will have to become my new PVE wep. (+2.1% crit vs +.88 on spear)
I also have a Crystalforged War Axe with 35 agility on it already, so I suppose that will have to become my new PVE wep. (+2.1% crit vs +.88 on spear)
There's a decent list of melee weapons on : http://www.wowwiki.com/Hunter_weapon
Our raid has decided we want a Survival specialized Hunter. Currently the best DPS spec for raiding is generally accepted to be BM. I'd like to restart this thread and ask a couple of questions that don't seem to have been answered yet.
Where is the point, I guess in terms of Agi for EW buff, that Surv spec becomes a better DPS spec than BM for that Hunter? That is, naturally the Surv Hunter will have lower DPS than the BM one, but there should be a cutoff point where the EW buff provided gives the Surv Hunter better total DPS contributions. Also, is my assumption even correct: that Surv with raid buff counted a better DPS spec than BM? Remembering that BM is high DPS and gives a 3% total/all type party damage buff.
Also, what kind of ranged weapon would be good to use? If I was to be that Hunter, could I effectively use the season two arena crossbow? I play at distance from servers such that I have an average constant latency of 400-500ms.
Another question is, while the Surv Hunter should be getting as many Agi gems as possible, what metagem would be best? I'm thinking either the Haste one or the Agi/crit dmg bonus.
Lastly, how good are hastes for this spec? Currently hastes do more bad than good for the most part due to our broken mechanics. But I wonder if perhaps some haste, for example IAotH, might be useful for such a Surv Hunter.
Hope to read some good replies
Where is the point, I guess in terms of Agi for EW buff, that Surv spec becomes a better DPS spec than BM for that Hunter? That is, naturally the Surv Hunter will have lower DPS than the BM one, but there should be a cutoff point where the EW buff provided gives the Surv Hunter better total DPS contributions. Also, is my assumption even correct: that Surv with raid buff counted a better DPS spec than BM? Remembering that BM is high DPS and gives a 3% total/all type party damage buff.
Also, what kind of ranged weapon would be good to use? If I was to be that Hunter, could I effectively use the season two arena crossbow? I play at distance from servers such that I have an average constant latency of 400-500ms.
Another question is, while the Surv Hunter should be getting as many Agi gems as possible, what metagem would be best? I'm thinking either the Haste one or the Agi/crit dmg bonus.
Lastly, how good are hastes for this spec? Currently hastes do more bad than good for the most part due to our broken mechanics. But I wonder if perhaps some haste, for example IAotH, might be useful for such a Surv Hunter.
Hope to read some good replies
is there any way to really theorcraft MT vs IAoTH?
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
is there any way to really theorcraft MT vs IAoTH?
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The only reason to get MT is to open up for readiness, but its the same sorta deal with IAotH and Focused Fire.
If I where going the surv route I would go something like 7/20/34.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cxZVVbRVZIh0GzfMhVhh
theres really no way i can to get FF without sacraficing 3/3 TOTH and at least 2/3 or 3/3 EW
though i usually kept a 0/20/41, would the IAoTH without FF be worth it over readiness?
theres really no way i can to get FF without sacraficing 3/3 TOTH and at least 2/3 or 3/3 EW
though i usually kept a 0/20/41, would the IAoTH without FF be worth it over readiness?
Would haste really screw up your shot rotation enough so that it became more of a burden rather then a benefit? That just seems so broken in terms of game mechanics. So in general, would haste mechanics from things like abacus/dragonspine do more bad then good if you have a fairly clean shot rotation in a low lag environment? Really curious now .
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cxZVVbRVZIh0GzfMhVhh
theres really no way i can to get FF without sacraficing 3/3 TOTH and at least 2/3 or 3/3 EW though i usually kept a 0/20/41, would the IAoTH without FF be worth it over readiness? |
I would take survivalist instead of clever traps and imp wing clip.
I'm playing around with http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZVVdRVzhhZIho0pcrhV0h, or a 0/28/33, and it seems pretty solid to me. Works pretty well in arenas too, and i can't really tell any difference in DPS, might be just that IAotH was messing up a bit on my rotations.
So basically, how much difference in terms of DPS you think is there between 5 points in IAotH and 12% extra damage on multishots, if mana is not an issue?
So basically, how much difference in terms of DPS you think is there between 5 points in IAotH and 12% extra damage on multishots, if mana is not an issue?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
Would haste really screw up your shot rotation enough so that it became more of a burden rather then a benefit? That just seems so broken in terms of game mechanics. So in general, would haste mechanics from things like abacus/dragonspine do more bad then good if you have a fairly clean shot rotation in a low lag environment? Really curious now .
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Originally Posted by Ture
I'm playing around with http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZVVdRVzhhZIho0pcrhV0h, or a 0/28/33, and it seems pretty solid to me. Works pretty well in arenas too, and i can't really tell any difference in DPS, might be just that IAotH was messing up a bit on my rotations.
So basically, how much difference in terms of DPS you think is there between 5 points in IAotH and 12% extra damage on multishots, if mana is not an issue? |
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cxZVVbRVZIh0GzfMhVhh
theres really no way i can to get FF without sacraficing 3/3 TOTH and at least 2/3 or 3/3 EW though i usually kept a 0/20/41, would the IAoTH without FF be worth it over readiness? |
I personally think readiness is a great talent, but having it hidden behind the utterly lackluster MT just ruins it for my purposes.
Re entering a more important topic than spec, at what point does survival become more viable than BM dps wise. Obviously in pet unfreidnly fights but im just talking about raw dps wise.
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Originally Posted by Sympa
Re entering a more important topic than spec, at what point does survival become more viable than BM dps wise. Obviously in pet unfreidnly fights but im just talking about raw dps wise.
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Originally Posted by Ladwenae
I think readiness is a matter of how you use it, and especially if you often find a (significant) use of it. Im fairly sure MT panned out to be around 3% crit compared to IAotH a avg 6% haste increase or something like that.
I personally think readiness is a great talent, but having it hidden behind the utterly lackluster MT just ruins it for my purposes. |
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
i don't think its possible to be honest if both people are equally geared. long as the BM can use his pet.
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Originally Posted by Spades
Expose Weakness scales (very, very slightly, as crit and hit get added) with the gear of everyone in the raid who benefits from it. The RDPS contribution of a survival hunter is difficult to waive aside!
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or unfriendly... i havent seen a fight yet where i cant use my fight atleast partially... leo probebly beeing the least friendly currently.
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
yes the survival contributes more to the raid, but in terms of personal DPS, i dont think surv will ever beat BM in a pet friendly fight
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Zek (5/20/36) spec vs Partyzan (41/20/0)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=am2phfzh5hsqk
(We had more or less same damage as BM and are generally in same group)
I don't know how long the Scorpid madness will go on, but let say cat vs cat / ravager vs ravager. SV hunter has all the chances to push forward.
Im mostly using max specials rotation (Arcane > Multi due 13% cos), and after being BM for long long im still having some problems with clipping atm.
To answer haste question: Yes they f*** up your standard (max) rotation, but adapting to it with switching to 1 special per auto is rewarding, it takes more focus than one macro button thats for sure.
I wonder how BM - SV difference will grow/wane with better and better gear. (to me, it seems difference in personal dps is getting smaller with upgrades, while raid support grows more for SV)
Well or I'm just getting better at playing it.
I agree with Sapa in that given the right circumstances a SV hunter's personal DPS can challenge that of a BM hunter, the biggest problem is with consistency. If you are looking at personal DPS a SV hunter's will vary greatly depending on crit-streaks, both in burst and endurance. However, I also think it's a moot issue because the RDPS of a SV hunter can be through the roof compared to other specs if your raid is heavy on the physical damage (which mine is ). 2500 AP added across the raid is pretty hard to surmount
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Originally Posted by Groggan
I agree with Sapa in that given the right circumstances a SV hunter's personal DPS can challenge that of a BM hunter, the biggest problem is with consistency. If you are looking at personal DPS a SV hunter's will vary greatly depending on crit-streaks, both in burst and endurance. However, I also think it's a moot issue because the RDPS of a SV hunter can be through the roof compared to other specs if your raid is heavy on the physical damage (which mine is ). 2500 AP added across the raid is pretty hard to surmount
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Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel
Don't forget that BM has FI. Depending on your raid composition, 3% FI damage may be more than the AP added from EW (in your case, with 2500 AP, the dps per person in the FI group would have to be very very high to surpass it - I figure around ~1785 dps per person). Just remember, EW is not universally better than FI and FI is not universally better than EW; it depends on raid and group composition.
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I don't have a good collection of screenshots to show, but I've played around with every spec and they all seem to do about the same damage on pet friendly, standstill fights. For instance on the Teron Gorefiend encounter:
With LoTP
MM: roughly 1k DPS myself , pet putting out 200 DPS
SURV: roughly 1.1k DPS myself, pet putting out a lil bit more than 200 DPS, due to the expose bonus
With BS + SoE (No LoTP)
BM: roughly 800 DPS myself, pet putting out 450dps
I'll get some screens up of surv's performance in the near future, but my claims are pretty accurate.
I've pretty much decided I'm going to stay with survival. I keep up just fine with the other two hunters in the raid, who are MM and BM. And as far as master tact goes, I like it. It certainly seems to go off more than 6% of the time. I'm not really a fan of improved aoth unless I am BM spec. There just aren't any bows fast enough to where the 15% haste lowers your autoshot speed to near universal (+ latency of course). I don't even use rapid fire either, unless I am bloodlusted, but I am using a pretty slow bow! It doesn't lower my autoshot speed to the point where waiting for the autoshot nets more dps.
0 start steady-->1.5 steady/GCD finishes + special starts --> 2.70 auto finishes-->3.0 GCD from special finishes, start new steady
With LoTP
MM: roughly 1k DPS myself , pet putting out 200 DPS
SURV: roughly 1.1k DPS myself, pet putting out a lil bit more than 200 DPS, due to the expose bonus
With BS + SoE (No LoTP)
BM: roughly 800 DPS myself, pet putting out 450dps
I'll get some screens up of surv's performance in the near future, but my claims are pretty accurate.
I've pretty much decided I'm going to stay with survival. I keep up just fine with the other two hunters in the raid, who are MM and BM. And as far as master tact goes, I like it. It certainly seems to go off more than 6% of the time. I'm not really a fan of improved aoth unless I am BM spec. There just aren't any bows fast enough to where the 15% haste lowers your autoshot speed to near universal (+ latency of course). I don't even use rapid fire either, unless I am bloodlusted, but I am using a pretty slow bow! It doesn't lower my autoshot speed to the point where waiting for the autoshot nets more dps.
0 start steady-->1.5 steady/GCD finishes + special starts --> 2.70 auto finishes-->3.0 GCD from special finishes, start new steady
Last night Solarian (first night, great kill)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...xu&s=4195-4479
Got beaten by BM Hunter in presence
But..
SV (0/20/41) DPS: 1310
BM (41/20/0) DPS: 1281
Both in same group. Lotp+GoA+SoE
SV is ok I guess.
"Tried" to use max special rotation, was to hyped and was watching more on warnings who got wrath (in case pet gets it) than on Quartz bars.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...xu&s=4195-4479
Got beaten by BM Hunter in presence
But..
SV (0/20/41) DPS: 1310
BM (41/20/0) DPS: 1281
Both in same group. Lotp+GoA+SoE
SV is ok I guess.
"Tried" to use max special rotation, was to hyped and was watching more on warnings who got wrath (in case pet gets it) than on Quartz bars.
How is 5/21/35 vs 0/20/41 for dps It seems like Mt and readinees arn't really that worth it?
It's still widely discussed if MT, IAotH or Barrage are the better options for a Survival build.
Myself being 5/20/36 I still get a bit annoyed over AotH procs as it changes my rotation and thus need even more focus than before. In addition to leading raids this can be a pain to get right, and already having around 43% crit in raids I don't really think MT is worth 5 points.
Something like 0/27/34 (2 points RWS, 2 in both TotH and EW) might also be a good option but theorycrafting the differences is way out of my league.
Looking at Zek and his 0/20/41 build it's no question that build can dish out some serious damage too.
Myself being 5/20/36 I still get a bit annoyed over AotH procs as it changes my rotation and thus need even more focus than before. In addition to leading raids this can be a pain to get right, and already having around 43% crit in raids I don't really think MT is worth 5 points.
Something like 0/27/34 (2 points RWS, 2 in both TotH and EW) might also be a good option but theorycrafting the differences is way out of my league.
Looking at Zek and his 0/20/41 build it's no question that build can dish out some serious damage too.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Deadzone
How is 5/21/35 vs 0/20/41 for dps It seems like Mt and readiness arn't really that worth it?
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I love Readiness thats for sure. Was tanking some stray trash / bosses / triple trapping mobs... fun stuff, helps sometimes to. 2x Misdirection really kicks, as only hunter in yesterday raid it was quite simple to pull for 2 tanks. (not really required, but possible to do)
(came in handy on mag)
And i don't miss Iaoth. With 7/21/33 I had to adjust rotation to Quick Shots procs but damage seems to be same with just max special rotation and no hastes for me.
Got some crazy crit numbers like ~50% on auto/multi and such while on paperdoll was clearly 38-40%.
I stopped using KC also and it looks like it helps to.
Overall I'm happy with build, lots of "massive" crits and lots of focus for pet.
For DPS alone I don't know for sure, seems same/better with 0/20/41. Maybe i had more clipping issues when i was using Imp.Hawk+KC. :/ (200-300ms last night)
I guess ill need to log some more raids and analyze data. Or go on few hour Dr.Boom rampage.
Will be posting WWS logs here. This one is from last night, they are quite off on lurker (im missing 330k damage...), precise on Hydross, and bit off for me and Zaborg on Mag (we clicked cube at the entrance)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=fsr1u6fq2f5w1
I recommend to everyone tinkering with SV spec to try Readiness, even if in theory you only gain 15sec of rapid and 1 multi-shot more ever 5 minutes .
Last edited by Sapa : 06/23/07 at 5:03 AM.
I just recently respec'd survival for more utility. As the Class Leader of my guild, I got a spot in raids more often then the other hunters, so I felt I would be the best candidate for it. I'm not 100% of the way there gear wise (using T4 shoulders which have no agility what-so-ever), but I am getting there. With Leader of the Pack/Grace of Air/Kings I had about 850 agility and about 41.5% chance to crit. I am currently 0/25/36 spec. On Tidewalker last night, I was doing about 900 DPS (I was also dropping frost trap for entrapment, so that hurt my DPS a little), give or take (don't have WWS for last night, got screwed up). Not to mention, I have Improved Hunter's Mark and Expose weakness, so i was giving the raid around 325 melee Attack power, which isn't too shabby.
Beast Mastery is definitely the king of DPS for raiding, but I do like having a bit more utility, and seeing crit after crit is fun. And a well played Survival hunter can still do a good amount of DPS on any given fight, not to mention the added damage they are giving to all melee, even the MT. Granted, it is a much more gear dependent spec then BM by far, I think having a survival hunter in a raid isn't a bad idea, which is why I decided to spec into it after much debate. I know the melee appreciated it.
Beast Mastery is definitely the king of DPS for raiding, but I do like having a bit more utility, and seeing crit after crit is fun. And a well played Survival hunter can still do a good amount of DPS on any given fight, not to mention the added damage they are giving to all melee, even the MT. Granted, it is a much more gear dependent spec then BM by far, I think having a survival hunter in a raid isn't a bad idea, which is why I decided to spec into it after much debate. I know the melee appreciated it.
My main is Cloudhoof on the Arygos server, not this Paladin anymore.
Anyhow I just switched from a 0/24/37 to a 6/21/34 build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cxoZVVbRVzZchhGzfMhVzh) for max DPS i would have gotten the 2nd point in focused fire instead of scatter but I PvP some too.
I did a few tests over the past few days asking myself the same sort of questions this thread does. Although I have never had MT, I feel pretty sure now IAoTH and FF is better than Thrill and Barrage.
This was after thinking about how I can overcome the mana problems losing thrill brings but its harder to replace IAoTH.
So I tested out on Dr. Boom, haven't gotten to raid since making the switch:
I did 2 mana bars worth for the tests basically, no buffs to myself and no HM
1. With Dragonspine : 697 personal DPS 1:50 avg. until OOM
2. With Blackhands: 617 personal DPS 2:00 avg. until OOM
I was using a full Multi/Arcane rotation with Blackhands and using a full rotation on the other until dragonspine proc'd and then I'd go Steady/Auto.
So once I saw I could handle the rotation switching and saw how much the haste seemed to help I went for IAotH to see if I could increase the damage more.
3. With Dspine and IAotH: 769 personal DPS 1:30 avg. until OOM
Granted more tests need to be run, but after seeing this I wanted to try out in the real world and I'll try to get some of those kind of results soon. I should also end up in some groups with or without shadow priest and can relay what sort of difference that makes.
Anyhow I just switched from a 0/24/37 to a 6/21/34 build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cxoZVVbRVzZchhGzfMhVzh) for max DPS i would have gotten the 2nd point in focused fire instead of scatter but I PvP some too.
I did a few tests over the past few days asking myself the same sort of questions this thread does. Although I have never had MT, I feel pretty sure now IAoTH and FF is better than Thrill and Barrage.
This was after thinking about how I can overcome the mana problems losing thrill brings but its harder to replace IAoTH.
So I tested out on Dr. Boom, haven't gotten to raid since making the switch:
I did 2 mana bars worth for the tests basically, no buffs to myself and no HM
1. With Dragonspine : 697 personal DPS 1:50 avg. until OOM
2. With Blackhands: 617 personal DPS 2:00 avg. until OOM
I was using a full Multi/Arcane rotation with Blackhands and using a full rotation on the other until dragonspine proc'd and then I'd go Steady/Auto.
So once I saw I could handle the rotation switching and saw how much the haste seemed to help I went for IAotH to see if I could increase the damage more.
3. With Dspine and IAotH: 769 personal DPS 1:30 avg. until OOM
Granted more tests need to be run, but after seeing this I wanted to try out in the real world and I'll try to get some of those kind of results soon. I should also end up in some groups with or without shadow priest and can relay what sort of difference that makes.
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Originally Posted by Alidien
It's still widely discussed if MT, IAotH or Barrage are the better options for a Survival build.
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When I was MM and had IAotH I more or less always switched to my steady macro and when the proc was down used max specials and that gave me satisfying results.
Im currently 41/20/0 but with emphasis on PvP and its quite a significant drop in DPS without IAotH, but thats not really a surprise.
Assuming 55 shots in 60 seconds MT will proc 3.3 times in a minute. As each shot is space out approximately 1.09s appart, this means that after a proc the next 7 shots fired have a chance of causing overlapping MT procs. So there is a 42% chance each time MT procs that an average of 3.81 seconds of the procis wasted. Thus, on average 1.6 seconds of each MT is wasted, meaning that the 3.3 procs every minute average an uptime of 21.11 seconds in that minute. This averages out to 3.52% crit (just to be sure I checked and increasing your crit by 10% for 21.11 seconds every minute is an equivalent DPS increase to 3.52% crit all the time). Assuming you have a crit rate of 40% and using a 130% damage increase (for a total of 230% damage on a crit) this increases your DPS by 3%.
Was gonna work on IAotH next, but ran out of time. Will come back late tonight and try it out if no one else has posted anything on it.
Was gonna work on IAotH next, but ran out of time. Will come back late tonight and try it out if no one else has posted anything on it.
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Originally Posted by Jamuka
Assuming 55 shots in 60 seconds MT will proc 3.3 times in a minute. As each shot is space out approximately 1.09s appart, this means that after a proc the next 7 shots fired have a chance of causing overlapping MT procs. So there is a 42% chance each time MT procs that an average of 3.81 seconds of the procis wasted. Thus, on average 1.6 seconds of each MT is wasted, meaning that the 3.3 procs every minute average an uptime of 21.11 seconds in that minute. This averages out to 3.52% crit (just to be sure I checked and increasing your crit by 10% for 21.11 seconds every minute is an equivalent DPS increase to 3.52% crit all the time). Assuming you have a crit rate of 40% and using a 130% damage increase (for a total of 230% damage on a crit) this increases your DPS by 3%.
Was gonna work on IAotH next, but ran out of time. Will come back late tonight and try it out if no one else has posted anything on it. |
Debating the following spec for raiding
Build 1 The Spec
Build 2 The Spec
Build 1
With this spec i would have Imp AOTH aswell as most of the benefits from Surv and Most of the benefits from Marks. Also have some mana regen from the crit talents.
Build 2
With the second spec (also surv) i traded the mana regen talents in surv out to extra damage from multi shot in MM. Honestly.. if hunters keep getting wisdom + judged mob/spriest... mana isnt an issue with minimum consumable usage
Build 1 The Spec
Build 2 The Spec
Build 1
With this spec i would have Imp AOTH aswell as most of the benefits from Surv and Most of the benefits from Marks. Also have some mana regen from the crit talents.
Build 2
With the second spec (also surv) i traded the mana regen talents in surv out to extra damage from multi shot in MM. Honestly.. if hunters keep getting wisdom + judged mob/spriest... mana isnt an issue with minimum consumable usage
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
So many specs in here but what would be really interesting is the rotation used as survival hunter to get high dps, if any.
A rotation depends on many facts and I would appreciate if we could gather them to get some rotation to work for any bow-speed.
- Haste buffs can be bad for rotations because cooldowns are not affected.
- Latency is a very big issue. Does latency affect the auto shot aswell while only shooting auto shots?
- You cannot fire specials faster than 1.5 seconds cause of the global cooldown, is this true or not?
- Specials delay the next auto shot by 0.5 seconds, is this true?
- Is it a good decision to use multishot against single targets as a survival hunter?
Lets take a 3.0spd bow for example. With only a 15% quiver its speed goes down to 2.6.
As said in the rotation thread the auto shot is your best shot and should never be delayed.
Steady shot is affected by the quiver and will be fired in 1.3 seconds. Its questionable if the casting speed of multi shot is affected by the quiver aswell.
To sum this up: Is it possible to find a rotation that will allow us to fire multi, arcane, steady and auto shots without delaying anything?
If find it hard to fit in multi shot cause of its cooldown and long castime. But I give it a try. Here is my sequence for a 3.0 speed bow with 15% quiver. I do not know how to handle latency in this sequence and haste buffs will mostly ruin the sequence cause of cooldown usage.
A rotation depends on many facts and I would appreciate if we could gather them to get some rotation to work for any bow-speed.
- Haste buffs can be bad for rotations because cooldowns are not affected.
- Latency is a very big issue. Does latency affect the auto shot aswell while only shooting auto shots?
- You cannot fire specials faster than 1.5 seconds cause of the global cooldown, is this true or not?
- Specials delay the next auto shot by 0.5 seconds, is this true?
- Is it a good decision to use multishot against single targets as a survival hunter?
Lets take a 3.0spd bow for example. With only a 15% quiver its speed goes down to 2.6.
As said in the rotation thread the auto shot is your best shot and should never be delayed.
Steady shot is affected by the quiver and will be fired in 1.3 seconds. Its questionable if the casting speed of multi shot is affected by the quiver aswell.
To sum this up: Is it possible to find a rotation that will allow us to fire multi, arcane, steady and auto shots without delaying anything?
If find it hard to fit in multi shot cause of its cooldown and long castime. But I give it a try. Here is my sequence for a 3.0 speed bow with 15% quiver. I do not know how to handle latency in this sequence and haste buffs will mostly ruin the sequence cause of cooldown usage.
Last edited by zork : 06/26/07 at 8:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by zork
1. Haste buffs can be bad for rotations because cooldowns are not affected.
2. Latency is a very big issue. Question is does latency affect the auto shot aswell while only shooting auto shots? 3. You cannot fire specials faster than 1.5 seconds cause of the global cooldown, is this true or not? 4. Specials delay the next auto shot by 0.5 seconds, is this true? 5.- Is it a good decision to use multishot against single targets as a survival hunter? |
1. Disregarding how it is to shift into the newly hasted rotation (i.e. user error), I don't think haste can ever make you fire less shots. Proccing hastes are very prone of disrupting your rhythm, though, which might be somewhat bad for your overall DPS.
2. Nope, not as far as I've seen.
3. True, excepting while under the influence of Bloodlust / Heroism.
4. Specials can delay your next Auto Shot by 0.5 seconds. Auto Shot basically has a 0.5 cast time.
5. If your average Multi-Shot damage is higher than your average [other special you'd fire], and using Multi-Shot won't leave you mana starved, yes.
I'm currently BM spec for arena, however I have come to enjoy 0/28/33 aka http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZqVbRVzhhZIhb0tcMhV0h while thrill of the hunt is an excellent talnet I believe it needs to be similar to the t3 6piece bonus so that it gives mana back from autoshots, I also have no mana problems so I decided against using it.
I have read that MT is ~3.9% crit on these forums, however I don't find it's worth it since raid buffed i push 42% crit (with druid) without MT.
90% of the time I will be grouped with a feral druid and shaman for goa hitting 106X agil and giving a nice ap buff to the target. with this setup im pushing almost 1200dps with scorpid on fights like mag, and around 900dps on gruul.
I have trialed 5/20/36 and found the haste procs required more effort to keep up the same dps as 0/25/36 or 0/28/33, however I do play with a 400ms ping.
saying this I do around 100 more dps with bm spec but its much more effort to keep up the dps and I rather just be survival and be able to pay extra attention to the fight.
I have read that MT is ~3.9% crit on these forums, however I don't find it's worth it since raid buffed i push 42% crit (with druid) without MT.
90% of the time I will be grouped with a feral druid and shaman for goa hitting 106X agil and giving a nice ap buff to the target. with this setup im pushing almost 1200dps with scorpid on fights like mag, and around 900dps on gruul.
I have trialed 5/20/36 and found the haste procs required more effort to keep up the same dps as 0/25/36 or 0/28/33, however I do play with a 400ms ping.
saying this I do around 100 more dps with bm spec but its much more effort to keep up the dps and I rather just be survival and be able to pay extra attention to the fight.
I keep seeing variations on Marksman/Survival specs with very few points in BM for iAotH. I'm curious to know what I might be missing out on specced as 7/20/34. Granted, I dropped iAotH due to not being able to keep up with the haste buff, but I have to wonder if I'm trading away some DPS by taking up FF instead of going deeper into MM/SV.
I've also played around with the Hunter spreadsheets, which show I should be reaching and/or breaking 1300 DPS, I'm nowhere near that; more along the lines of 6-700 DPS. I'm wondering if maybe my rotations are off, or if there's something else I'm missing.
Here's my WWS log from my guild's run at Voidreaver last night (copy/pasted, as I haven't been able to talk to the guy running the logs to see if he wants it semi-public). Granted, I know I'm losing some DPS due to moving around, but it still seems rather low.
Another from Lurker Below; while I did improve my rotation from our first kill, I still did not post any memorable damage:
Any ideas as to why I'm not performing anywhere near the DPS mark listed in either spreadsheet, and what I could possibly do better to start pushing more damage?
I've also played around with the Hunter spreadsheets, which show I should be reaching and/or breaking 1300 DPS, I'm nowhere near that; more along the lines of 6-700 DPS. I'm wondering if maybe my rotations are off, or if there's something else I'm missing.
Here's my WWS log from my guild's run at Voidreaver last night (copy/pasted, as I haven't been able to talk to the guy running the logs to see if he wants it semi-public). Granted, I know I'm losing some DPS due to moving around, but it still seems rather low.
Present from 20:13 to 20:21 (100 %) DPS time : 7mn (97 % of presence), DPS : 590 Damage dealt to foes : 279,965 (6 %) Dmg. Out Total % Hits Avg Max Ticks Avg Max Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% Auto Shot 131,361 47 % 106 602 732 48 1407 1687 31 % 0.4 % Steady Shot 110,457 39 % 93 611 764 37 1448 1678 28 % 0.1 % Arcane Shot (Arcane) 36,517 13 % 30 698 960 9 1729 2283 23 % 3.7 % Multi-Shot 1,630 1 % 1 1630 1630 100 %
Present from 23:01 to 23:11 (92 %) DPS time : 7mn (73 % of presence), DPS : 691 Damage dealt to foes : 301,980 (6 %) Dmg. Out Total % Hits Avg Max Ticks Avg Max Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% Auto Shot 133,561 44 % 86 650 810 48 1617 1982 36 % 0.1 % Steady Shot 110,548 37 % 68 678 825 40 1610 1900 37 % 0.1 % Arcane Shot (Arcane) 40,299 13 % 36 716 926 9 1612 2027 20 % 3.4 %
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Originally Posted by shinobi
Any ideas as to why I'm not performing anywhere near the DPS mark listed in either spreadsheet, and what I could possibly do better to start pushing more damage?
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Also, is Hunter's Mark up and refreshed? My spreadsheet assumes it is kept at +440 RAP.
Your shots aren't hitting for any less than mine, but I have 300+ DPS coming from my pet, which makes up the difference in our numbers.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Where is your pet? Even as a Survival spec your pet should be doing 100+ DPS. Also, most spreadsheets (I know mine does) provide numbers against a 0 armor target. You can fiddle with armor values to see how that effects the damage outputs. Once you get an armor value that matches your average shot damage you'll have a better idea what your personal DPS is.
Also, is Hunter's Mark up and refreshed? My spreadsheet assumes it is kept at +440 RAP. Your shots aren't hitting for any less than mine, but I have 300+ DPS coming from my pet, which makes up the difference in our numbers. |
MT vs Imp AotH:
For purposes of this discussion, R = average shot rate. (So 1.25 if you tend to shoot twice every 2.5 seconds. OK, so technically this is average time per shot rather than shots per time. Sue me. It'll work.)
MASTER TACTICIAN
This is the easier of the two. In a given period of 8 seconds prior to the shot you are taking, there is a 1 - (.94)^(8/R) chance of MT being up. Other than the "1-" part, that is the chance to not activate in any of those shots. So if you can pull off one shot every second, Master Tactician will be up about 39% of the time, for an average contribution of 3.9%.
Of course, that's best case scenario. In intermittent or short fights, the advantage is much less, but since we're comparing it to Improved Hawk, we'll disregard this.
A 3.9% increase is +3.9% of your non-crit DPS added overall, or 5.1% with Mortal Shots. If you've got 30% crit and Mortal Shots, you're already doing ~139% of non-crit, so jumping to 144% is an actual increase of about 3.6% total damage.
By contrast, if you're shooting every 1.25 seconds, you'll get an uptime of about 32.6%, an effective crit rate of 3.3%. If you're somehow shooting every 0.75 seconds, you'd get an uptime around 48%, or a boon of 4.8%. As you can infer from the previous example, whatever percentage you DO have, is probably slightly less of a percent of your total damage with Mortal Shots.
IMPROVED ASPECT OF THE HAWK
Because the probability is dependent on if we are hasted or not, we have to break this in half.
If hawk is not active, it will take 10 shots to retrigger on average. This takes 10R seconds.
Once it is active, it will last 12 seconds if it is not retriggered. You will fire 12/R shots in that time, each with a 10% chance of reinitiating Hawk. The chance of none of those succeeding is 0.9^(12 / R/1.15) = 0.9^(13.8/R)...so one minus that is the chance of retriggering.
However, we could retrigger off the retrigger, and retrigger off of that...we end up with the sum of a geometric series. So the average number of retriggers is going to be 0.9^(-13.8/R). (Sum of a geometric series is 1 / 1-P.) This number includes the original trigger.
Time to make a few assumptions so the math is relatively simple:
1) Assume that on average a reproc will add 6 seconds (half the duration) to the active period. This is slightly faulty, since the shot it activates on will be front-heavy, but it can't activate for at least R/1.15 time, so we'll pretend that balances out.
2) Assume that a 15% haste will increase your damage by 15%. Theoretically, it should. Work = Rate * Time, so +15% rate in the same time should be +15% work. In practice, it might not.
Then we have an uptime of...6+6*[0.9^(-13.8/R)]...31.7 seconds if you were attacking once per second without Quick Shots. The downtime was 10R, or 10 seconds. So the effect will be active 31.7 out of 41.7 seconds, or 76% of the time. That's an effective 11.4% haste increase, for 11.4% damage!
If we assume a slower attack rate, say 1.25, then the result is 25.2 up, 12.5 down, active on average 67%, for a 10% increase.
There's really no question which one is better, until the haste starts screwing with your shot cycles. If maintaining a 1 second shot speed as a non-BM hunter requires a slow weapon with a tight specials cycle, 15% haste very well might F you up. However, even for straight auto-steady, it's still a very good increase. We're talking a magnitude of about 3:1 in value, unless you start putting in contingencies like "but I like to use Aspect of the Viper," "I mostly PvP and so I never use autoshot," or "but the extra crit adds more than just raw damage for a survival hunter."
In fact, if I did the math right...and I've done it before and don't remember it being THIS good, so maybe I haven't...this is better damage than all other talents except SS or maybe MS.
For purposes of this discussion, R = average shot rate. (So 1.25 if you tend to shoot twice every 2.5 seconds. OK, so technically this is average time per shot rather than shots per time. Sue me. It'll work.)
MASTER TACTICIAN
This is the easier of the two. In a given period of 8 seconds prior to the shot you are taking, there is a 1 - (.94)^(8/R) chance of MT being up. Other than the "1-" part, that is the chance to not activate in any of those shots. So if you can pull off one shot every second, Master Tactician will be up about 39% of the time, for an average contribution of 3.9%.
Of course, that's best case scenario. In intermittent or short fights, the advantage is much less, but since we're comparing it to Improved Hawk, we'll disregard this.
A 3.9% increase is +3.9% of your non-crit DPS added overall, or 5.1% with Mortal Shots. If you've got 30% crit and Mortal Shots, you're already doing ~139% of non-crit, so jumping to 144% is an actual increase of about 3.6% total damage.
By contrast, if you're shooting every 1.25 seconds, you'll get an uptime of about 32.6%, an effective crit rate of 3.3%. If you're somehow shooting every 0.75 seconds, you'd get an uptime around 48%, or a boon of 4.8%. As you can infer from the previous example, whatever percentage you DO have, is probably slightly less of a percent of your total damage with Mortal Shots.
IMPROVED ASPECT OF THE HAWK
Because the probability is dependent on if we are hasted or not, we have to break this in half.
If hawk is not active, it will take 10 shots to retrigger on average. This takes 10R seconds.
Once it is active, it will last 12 seconds if it is not retriggered. You will fire 12/R shots in that time, each with a 10% chance of reinitiating Hawk. The chance of none of those succeeding is 0.9^(12 / R/1.15) = 0.9^(13.8/R)...so one minus that is the chance of retriggering.
However, we could retrigger off the retrigger, and retrigger off of that...we end up with the sum of a geometric series. So the average number of retriggers is going to be 0.9^(-13.8/R). (Sum of a geometric series is 1 / 1-P.) This number includes the original trigger.
Time to make a few assumptions so the math is relatively simple:
1) Assume that on average a reproc will add 6 seconds (half the duration) to the active period. This is slightly faulty, since the shot it activates on will be front-heavy, but it can't activate for at least R/1.15 time, so we'll pretend that balances out.
2) Assume that a 15% haste will increase your damage by 15%. Theoretically, it should. Work = Rate * Time, so +15% rate in the same time should be +15% work. In practice, it might not.
Then we have an uptime of...6+6*[0.9^(-13.8/R)]...31.7 seconds if you were attacking once per second without Quick Shots. The downtime was 10R, or 10 seconds. So the effect will be active 31.7 out of 41.7 seconds, or 76% of the time. That's an effective 11.4% haste increase, for 11.4% damage!
If we assume a slower attack rate, say 1.25, then the result is 25.2 up, 12.5 down, active on average 67%, for a 10% increase.
There's really no question which one is better, until the haste starts screwing with your shot cycles. If maintaining a 1 second shot speed as a non-BM hunter requires a slow weapon with a tight specials cycle, 15% haste very well might F you up. However, even for straight auto-steady, it's still a very good increase. We're talking a magnitude of about 3:1 in value, unless you start putting in contingencies like "but I like to use Aspect of the Viper," "I mostly PvP and so I never use autoshot," or "but the extra crit adds more than just raw damage for a survival hunter."
In fact, if I did the math right...and I've done it before and don't remember it being THIS good, so maybe I haven't...this is better damage than all other talents except SS or maybe MS.
Couple things:
1) Auto shot is the only thing that triggers hawk. You will never be firing one every 1.0 seconds, especially as a survival hunter.
2) Since this is the case it's value varies greatly based on weapon speed. I did some simulations and pulled some trend lines out of the numbers in the spreadsheet thread if you want to see the exact numbers. I believe Cheeky ended up using it.
Edit:
3) As you alluded to, 15% != 15% increase in damage. You can only cast one steady every 1.5 seconds. This rate is fixed and should be accounting for at least 30% of your damage. Same with the rate of fire for multi and arcane. Really the only value hawk has is if you have dead time to trim out of whatever rotation you use.
So in practice a 15% haste could add up to ~5% increase in dps if you are using a non-optimal rotation or a non-optimal weapon speed.
1) Auto shot is the only thing that triggers hawk. You will never be firing one every 1.0 seconds, especially as a survival hunter.
2) Since this is the case it's value varies greatly based on weapon speed. I did some simulations and pulled some trend lines out of the numbers in the spreadsheet thread if you want to see the exact numbers. I believe Cheeky ended up using it.
Edit:
3) As you alluded to, 15% != 15% increase in damage. You can only cast one steady every 1.5 seconds. This rate is fixed and should be accounting for at least 30% of your damage. Same with the rate of fire for multi and arcane. Really the only value hawk has is if you have dead time to trim out of whatever rotation you use.
So in practice a 15% haste could add up to ~5% increase in dps if you are using a non-optimal rotation or a non-optimal weapon speed.
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Originally Posted by Arcazua
MT vs Imp AotH:
... IMPROVED ASPECT OF THE HAWK ... Then we have an uptime of...6+6*[0.9^(-13.8/R)]...31.7 seconds if you were attacking once per second without Quick Shots. The downtime was 10R, or 10 seconds. So the effect will be active 31.7 out of 41.7 seconds, or 76% of the time. That's an effective 11.4% haste increase, for 11.4% damage! If we assume a slower attack rate, say 1.25, then the result is 25.2 up, 12.5 down, active on average 67%, for a 10% increase. |
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Originally Posted by shinobi
Aye; I keep a close eye on Hunter's Mark to make sure it stays up at all times. You do bring up a good point though; I do underutilize my pet, and it sounds like I might be able to push a bit more out with him on the target instead of by my side.
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Yes i know you will very likely clip rotation when doing "Auto, Steady+Multi, Auto" part of it. But will increase your damage (and mana usage), and sometimes when you get used to it you might execute it perfectly.
I don't use Iaoth and other hastes under 30% since they screw me over two times.
First it's demanding on focus and adaptation to proc. (going from max special rotation to one special per auto in any given combat situation ).
Second my max rotation has bigger dps as one special per auto.
I do use rapid fire tho. Its more mana conserve move than dps and fitting MS+Arcane in rotation all the time is costly.
Regarding the MT vs IAotH stuff:
There's some interesting posts on the matter here, ~page 7 / post 151 and onwards.
There's some interesting posts on the matter here, ~page 7 / post 151 and onwards.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
2) Since this is the case it's value varies greatly based on weapon speed. I did some simulations and pulled some trend lines out of the numbers in the spreadsheet thread if you want to see the exact numbers. I believe Cheeky ended up using it.
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| 1) Auto shot is the only thing that triggers hawk. You will never be firing one every 1.0 seconds, especially as a survival hunter. |
Alright, so if I fire auto at a rate of once per 2.5 (outside Quick Shots), that's 16.7 up and 25 down for an average of 40%. That works out to a 6% increase, which is more in-line with what I was expecting.
| 2) Since this is the case it's value varies greatly based on weapon speed. I did some simulations and pulled some trend lines out of the numbers in the spreadsheet thread if you want to see the exact numbers. I believe Cheeky ended up using it. |
| 3) As you alluded to, 15% != 15% increase in damage. You can only cast one steady every 1.5 seconds. This rate is fixed and should be accounting for at least 30% of your damage. |
But that's if you're using a strict steady rotation, and I'm sure others will be quick to point out they feel that is sub-optimal for non-BM. I'm not a member of the mana potion fanclub, and until recently I was still using a blue with a faster shot speed, so I still think in terms of auto-steady. With the increasing amounts of haste items emerging, I don't think it's completely unfair of me to do so.
Can someone link any interesting WWS report(s) along with spec used.
I'm bit struggling with rotation / speeds / builds. And would like to see more data - hunter logs if possible. (checking entire WWS thread for SV hunters, but can't figure out build used for most)
Lady Vashj - wipefest:
0/28/33 build - 2 specials per auto rotation
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...na3myosq&a=100
3.3k multi shot crits just made me O.O (barrage, pvp gloves, mortal shots, slaying, relentless)
(was on Vashj only so full report shows combined data from all 7 tries for me)
Also learning Vashj and being on elemental duty. Any hunter tips?
Few mine:
*get dive/dash pet, not having it blows
*stop using arcane-multi 10sec before tainted spawn (you can solo it with fast response)
*41y range recommended for learning, hunting bats in f3
I'm bit struggling with rotation / speeds / builds. And would like to see more data - hunter logs if possible. (checking entire WWS thread for SV hunters, but can't figure out build used for most)
Lady Vashj - wipefest:
0/28/33 build - 2 specials per auto rotation
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...na3myosq&a=100
3.3k multi shot crits just made me O.O (barrage, pvp gloves, mortal shots, slaying, relentless)
(was on Vashj only so full report shows combined data from all 7 tries for me)
Also learning Vashj and being on elemental duty. Any hunter tips?
Few mine:
*get dive/dash pet, not having it blows
*stop using arcane-multi 10sec before tainted spawn (you can solo it with fast response)
*41y range recommended for learning, hunting bats in f3
From log:
2.54 (2.9) speed - no hastes ever
Multi Shot:
Multi-Auto combo on end puzzles me a bit. This is clipped shotting but auto dealt damage 15-120ms later? What I am missing here? Combatlog reading lesion??
0.5 delay, where is it?
Steady + Arcane:
This doesn't make sense either. See auto-auto difference its 2.375 ? From where? I don't get it I had 0 hastes during entire fight.
I expected something like this:
Its delayed auto and it fits with numbers, 2.6 between autos, 0.5 delay arcane > auto.
Anyone with ideas?
2.54 (2.9) speed - no hastes ever
Multi Shot:
22:46'33.695 Zek's Auto Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2023 22:46'35.377 Zek's Steady Shot hits Lady Vashj for 993 22:46'36.883 Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 3036 898 Zek's Auto Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2252
22:47'02.633 Zek's Auto Shot hits Lady Vashj for 884 22:47'04.180 Zek's Steady Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2326 22:47'05.461 Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2905 586 Zek's Auto Shot hits Lady Vashj for 870
0.5 delay, where is it?
Steady + Arcane:
22:47'22.267 Zek's Auto Shot hits Lady Vashj for 939 22:47'23.486 Zek's Steady Shot hits Lady Vashj for 952 830 Zek's Arcane Shot hits Lady Vashj for 1004 Arcane damage 22:47'24.642 Zek's Auto Shot hits Lady Vashj for 928
I expected something like this:
22:46'45.408 Zek's Auto Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2017 22:46'46.992 Zek's Steady Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2111 22:46'47.486 Zek's Arcane Shot hits Lady Vashj for 1004 Arcane damage 22:46'48.008 Zek's Auto Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2105
Anyone with ideas?
A little speculation: is there a flight time / reporting time issue going on? I know there have also been cases of slow/client lagged machines issuing bad timestamps (see Juggernaut's pre-2.1 1300 dps melee thread). Otherwise, not sure. The times don't appear to conform to expectations.
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Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel
A little speculation: is there a flight time / reporting time issue going on? I know there have also been cases of slow/client lagged machines issuing bad timestamps (see Juggernaut's pre-2.1 1300 dps melee thread). Otherwise, not sure. The times don't appear to conform to expectations.
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And why some are correct while some are unexpected?
Its not crazy clock issue (Juggernaut) checked that first.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
22:47'02.633 Zek's Auto Shot hits Lady Vashj for 884 22:47'04.180 Zek's Steady Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2326 22:47'05.461 Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2905 586 Zek's Auto Shot hits Lady Vashj for 870 0.5 delay, where is it? |
I suspect it varies a fair amount because it is initiated by the server and latency is variable. So you could have situations like the following.
000ms - Multi-Shot fires on the server
000ms - Server sends results of Multi-Shot to client
000ms - Auto shot begins casting
300ms - Client gets results of Multi-Shot (300ms traversing the internet)
500ms - Auto shot fires on the server
500ms - Server sends results of Auto shot to client
600ms - Client gets the message (100ms traversing the internet)
In this situation the delay would appear to be 300ms when in fact it was 500ms.
You should always keep this in mind when reading/parsing your combat logs. Every time stamp has some latency added to it. That latency is variable from one time stamp to the next.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Lactose
Numbered for ease of answering.
1. Disregarding how it is to shift into the newly hasted rotation (i.e. user error), I don't think haste can ever make you fire less shots. Proccing hastes are very prone of disrupting your rhythm, though, which might be somewhat bad for your overall DPS. |
Last edited by Howitzer : 07/09/07 at 2:47 PM.
Haste benefit largely depends on the rotation being used. Pure auto/steady benefits from haste until you run into the user-error / GCD problem. Priority replacement will eventually run into cooldown issues (you simply CAN'T fire arcane and multi faster than the cooldown). Auto shot is pretty straightforward to calculate. If you've got a 3% haste mod, it's base damage / (attack speed / 1.03), which is the same as (1.03*base damage) / attack speed (so it's a straight 3% increase in dps). Until you reach the user error/gcd threshold, steady is the same way. Again with 3% haste, Damage / (Cast Time / 1.03) = (1.03*Damage) / Cast Time. Again, a 3% increase in dps.
It's somewhat unsatisfying, but for auto/steady, until you screw things up or reach the GCD barrier, haste is a linear damage increase. For Arcane/Multi, it's harder to determine (it largely depends on where the cooldown falls in your rotation - either it comes up in the middle of a window and you can fire it or it doesn't; if it doesn't, you have to determine if the added haste now moves the window such that it does...etc). I'm speaking very generally, of course, but for the specific case of auto and steady, this should be accurate.
Just remember, though, that haste is not a purely linear increase in dps (unless you just cast steady/auto). Arcane and Multi get little to no benefit from haste (largely dependant upon whether the haste repositions the window to cast with the cooldown such that they coincide better than they currently do).
It's somewhat unsatisfying, but for auto/steady, until you screw things up or reach the GCD barrier, haste is a linear damage increase. For Arcane/Multi, it's harder to determine (it largely depends on where the cooldown falls in your rotation - either it comes up in the middle of a window and you can fire it or it doesn't; if it doesn't, you have to determine if the added haste now moves the window such that it does...etc). I'm speaking very generally, of course, but for the specific case of auto and steady, this should be accurate.
Just remember, though, that haste is not a purely linear increase in dps (unless you just cast steady/auto). Arcane and Multi get little to no benefit from haste (largely dependant upon whether the haste repositions the window to cast with the cooldown such that they coincide better than they currently do).
Yep, I get what you're saying. Testing 2 haste items, (Mukoa gloves and Valestalker girdle 7% passive haste about), has benefited the Survival / Marks tree for me on rotations where you'll get that brief moment that you're waiting for the autoshot to fire while arcane / multi are on cooldown and starting another steady will result in an autoshot clip. In this scenario the haste value helped lessen the gap where I am simply doing no DPS waiting for the AS timer. What I'm very curious to see is a MM hunter with a X/4X/X or variant-type build with about 20% passive haste in itemization and then see his DPS compared to a BM hunter. Both would technically have Serpent's Swiftness.
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Originally Posted by Howitzer
Yep, I get what you're saying. Testing 2 haste items, (Mukoa gloves and Valestalker girdle 7% passive haste about), has benefited the Survival / Marks tree for me on rotations where you'll get that brief moment that you're waiting for the autoshot to fire while arcane / multi are on cooldown and starting another steady will result in an autoshot clip. In this scenario the haste value helped lessen the gap where I am simply doing no DPS waiting for the AS timer. What I'm very curious to see is a MM hunter with a X/4X/X or variant-type build with about 20% passive haste in itemization and then see his DPS compared to a BM hunter. Both would technically have Serpent's Swiftness.
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Yeah, I've been curious about possibly itemizing MM/SV to match BM's haste too. Unfortunately, it appears to be both a non-trivial task to acquire said items (in terms of progression and luck with drops) and that you would be sacrificing substantial upgrades to RAP and Crit in order to pursue such a dream. Perhaps you could simulate it with a spreadsheet and avoid the potential heartbreak of getting gear and being disappointed.
Also, given that multishot is a major component of MM's dps (and talent base, at 6 points of investment), you'd be left with the choice of either not using it (and wasting talent points) or using it and essentially forgoing the large mana advantage that an auto/steady rotation has. Remember, it's not just the haste that makes auto/steady viable, but the relative mana economy over mm/sv style priority replacement rotations.
As it stands, I DO see a large advantage to having a single SV hunter in the raid (provided, obviously, that they have the gear to support the spec and aren't brain dead at the keyboard). Of course, this is largely dependant upon your raid composition, but I'd wager that most raids will have the 5-10 physical dpsers requisite to make SV worthwhile for the raid. MM, on the other hand, simply doesn't have the tools to make it appealing (of course, this is well discussed and documented, so I won't go into it more).
Does anyone have an appreciable amount of static haste gear (at least 10-15%) who would be willing to comment on the topic?
Also, given that multishot is a major component of MM's dps (and talent base, at 6 points of investment), you'd be left with the choice of either not using it (and wasting talent points) or using it and essentially forgoing the large mana advantage that an auto/steady rotation has. Remember, it's not just the haste that makes auto/steady viable, but the relative mana economy over mm/sv style priority replacement rotations.
As it stands, I DO see a large advantage to having a single SV hunter in the raid (provided, obviously, that they have the gear to support the spec and aren't brain dead at the keyboard). Of course, this is largely dependant upon your raid composition, but I'd wager that most raids will have the 5-10 physical dpsers requisite to make SV worthwhile for the raid. MM, on the other hand, simply doesn't have the tools to make it appealing (of course, this is well discussed and documented, so I won't go into it more).
Does anyone have an appreciable amount of static haste gear (at least 10-15%) who would be willing to comment on the topic?
Actually, I think Djinn has 3 pieces of it and is at or above 10% passive haste. I'll try to badger him to reply.
I was looking at some loots and found http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29924 if we dual wield those would they be better than http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28587 for surv?
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Originally Posted by Sapa
Also learning Vashj and being on elemental duty. Any hunter tips?
Few mine: *get dive/dash pet, not having it blows *stop using arcane-multi 10sec before tainted spawn (you can solo it with fast response) *41y range recommended for learning, hunting bats in f3 |
1) Oddly enough, the elementals aren't elementals at all. Use track humanoids to see them on radar.
2) Get a shadowpriest. I normally have one all the time (I'm usually the only hunter), but on some of our learning tries I didn't have one. Chain potting, double mana oils, mageblood, BoW, and even viper, I was unable to maintain enough mana to keep up with spawns. Granted, this is the survival thread (TotH might be the difference maker), but as deep MM and now BM, I found it untenable without a shadowpriest. I'm not normally one to bitch and moan about party make-up, but this is the one fight (we just killed Kael) where I insist on having one.
3) Try and stay near the top of the stairs, but not so close to the top as to get feared by a strider. Less chasing and eliminating that whole LoS thing with the top of the stairs.
4) Since we're not like warlocks (ie DoT it and forget it), I find communication pretty key to getting to tainteds as fast as possible. My roving healer normally says in vent or whispers me if there is a tainted in my area that I am not already running to.
Once you get used to the rhythm, a dive/dash pet isn't absolutely necessary. I learned the fight with my cat, but now feel comfortable enough to do it with my scorp. Just send it on to the next one as you finish that one off. While the elementals are immune to scorpid poison, it really does a number on Vash'j herself.
Good hunting and hopefully you'll get the bow on your first kill like I did.
| Also, given that multishot is a major component of MM's dps (and talent base, at 6 points of investment), you'd be left with the choice of either not using it (and wasting talent points) or using it and essentially forgoing the large mana advantage that an auto/steady rotation has. |
Off the top of my head, you could max out both Efficiency and Imp. Hunter's Mark, then put the final three points into Careful Aim rather than putting six points into scatter shot.
Havn't looked to much into it yet, but is it worth looking into the old Haste to gloves enchant? for a additional 10 rating to gloves? The main downfall would be losing +15 agi though.
If you're doing 1000 personal DPS then 1% haste translate into 10 dps. 15 Agility is ~1 dps on auto shot alone and 15*0.2/2=1.5 dps on steady shot (using approximate autoshot timer as period between steadies - not strictly accurate but close enough for government work). 15 Agi is also ~0.67% to crit. Can 0.67% translate into 7.5 dps? Using (again) a simplisitic methodology, 1002.5+0.0067*1002.5 ~ 1009, which is close (and also fails to account for mortal shots and GftT, of which you almost certainly have mortal shots if you're MM or SV). With mortal shots, it's 1002.5+0.0067*1002.5*1.3 ~ 1011. Honestly, there probably aren't that many hunters who are doing 1k personal dps (I know of a few, but I would wager they are the minority). In all likelihood, 15 AGI will be superior to 1% haste (even this extremely simplistic example was able to show rough equivalence, if nothing else).
As for replacing the multishot talents with talents lower in the tree, that's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much testing with MM since I switched to BM - primarily due to work/school time restrictions and quirky raid scheduling. While I'm not going to make a hard and fast statement about that approach to MM, I would wager that would make you even more dependent upon haste gear to be competitive with other specs. Just my speculative $0.02 though.
As for replacing the multishot talents with talents lower in the tree, that's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much testing with MM since I switched to BM - primarily due to work/school time restrictions and quirky raid scheduling. While I'm not going to make a hard and fast statement about that approach to MM, I would wager that would make you even more dependent upon haste gear to be competitive with other specs. Just my speculative $0.02 though.
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
I was looking at some loots and found http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29924 if we dual wield those would they be better than http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28587 for surv?
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78 agi, 38 stam, 76 AP
Legacy with 35 agi:
75 agi, 46 stam, 80 AP, 8 mp5
This makes Legacy look better, because ~0.1% crit and ~1 AP more EW isn't worth the loss of 8 mp5. Netherbanes become better when using 2 mana oils or crit stones, though.
Biggest problem with Netherbane is prying it from the cold dead hands of an enhancement shaman. It's definitely worth getting if you have access to it, use crit stones regularly, and can't get something better. Given where it comes from, you might have been better off comparing it to Twin Blade of the Phoenix (though I realize the quoted post referred to Legacy).
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel
Biggest problem with Netherbane is prying it from the cold dead hands of an enhancement shaman. It's definitely worth getting if you have access to it, use crit stones regularly, and can't get something better. Given where it comes from, you might have been better off comparing it to Twin Blade of the Phoenix (though I realize the quoted post referred to Legacy).
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But Twin Blade... huh we downed Al'ar ~6 or 7 times now by the time it will drop it might take a while. And will start on Kael in 2 days now that we downed Lady Vashj yesterday.
Woot Vashj down:
http://www.vinlacvicek.com/images/ar...y_down_big.jpg
Definitely one of best fights i saw so far.
*FD+Drinking is quite possible for first ~40sec into phase 2 since all dps is "free".
*Don't use group loot, bugged tainted elementals once
WWS:
Zek - WWS
***
Currently using 0/28/33 spec and decided to switch to 0/24/36 +1 somewhere or back to 0/20/41.
Extra dps from 3/5 RWS just can't cover for TotH mana regain in my opinion with SV spec on most longer fights. 3/3 Barrage well i like 3k+ multi shot crits and quite good ~9 DPM with r6 multi.
I don't use KC at all and my mana goes down the drain too fast for pots, dual oils and mageblood with max special usage without TotH. Only exception would be having guaranteed place with SP, but arcane mages and BM hunters group better with them. And I kinda like GoA if possible.
And with "new improved" rotation my mana usage will increase again. (planning to start using KC in same way as arcane and multi shots - after steady and manually)
Last edited by Sapa : 07/11/07 at 4:39 AM.
I still can't decide whether 2/3 TOTH and 3/3 EW is better or worse then 3/3 TOTH and 2/3 EW ><
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm trying to make a quick list of agility items (didn't see anyone make one yet), to see how high i can get my agility with gear alone.
But i'm missing a certain detail, what is the base agility at lvl 70?
Note: I'm still lacking Tier 5/6 on the list below, but they'll be added as well eventually.
Edit: Updated list is on the next page.
But i'm missing a certain detail, what is the base agility at lvl 70?
Note: I'm still lacking Tier 5/6 on the list below, but they'll be added as well eventually.
Edit: Updated list is on the next page.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/12/07 at 10:41 AM.
I hope this is the correct place for this sort of discussion.
First, thanks to everyone for their input to this threat, and the forum as a whole. Some amazing tools to help us all.
I'm having trouble getting my head round some screenshots I see on the forums, and some stories I read. Seeing some hunters with normal autoshots hitting for over 800 damage each, and approaching 1000dps in some fights. Very impressive things. I'm very jealous.
Cheeky's spreadsheet is certainly an impressive and very useful tool, and helps us model what we could be aiming for. But it's quite hard to tell how much of that theoretical representation we can carry into the game. There are so many different mobs with different resistances and armor values. Different requirements in terms of movement which disturbs shot rotation. It's hard, when I see people claiming to have got ***dps, to know how and under what circumstances. What buffs they had and what role that person was asked to play in the fight. And even knowing all those factors, how do I compare those to what I and others have recorded for ourselves?
I'm in a guild that does weekly visits to Kara, but hasn't yet been as far as Gruul. Our server is still very young. So there is, of course, a cap on the quality of gear I can obtain. That said, I feel im fairly well equiped.
I was hoping people could provide some critique, and perhaps present their own data, on how their specs/builds perform on a normalized Dr.Boom testing. It would be really interesting to see how we all compare to each other when all other factors are normalized. To see what really is achievable. Theorycrafting on paper is all very well, but It would be very beneficial to be able to look at peoples profiles and specs and compare Dr.Boom stats, to see what more is achievable, and how to achieve it.
I going to take a trip to see MR.Boom himself just now. Using only a simple spamming macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();
Only self buffs(only hawk for me, others might have TA) and hunters mark. I'll have my pet active for FF. Apart from that, no pots or food or any other fancy spells
My profile is The Armory so people can see my gear.
My spec is 7-20-34 (also viewable in my profile)
I'll do 4 mana bars to hopefully even out any randomness.
I'll post my boom results shortly. Hopefully others would like to take 5 minutes to do the same. It would make interesting reading for me personally, and I'm sure others too.
First, thanks to everyone for their input to this threat, and the forum as a whole. Some amazing tools to help us all.
I'm having trouble getting my head round some screenshots I see on the forums, and some stories I read. Seeing some hunters with normal autoshots hitting for over 800 damage each, and approaching 1000dps in some fights. Very impressive things. I'm very jealous.
Cheeky's spreadsheet is certainly an impressive and very useful tool, and helps us model what we could be aiming for. But it's quite hard to tell how much of that theoretical representation we can carry into the game. There are so many different mobs with different resistances and armor values. Different requirements in terms of movement which disturbs shot rotation. It's hard, when I see people claiming to have got ***dps, to know how and under what circumstances. What buffs they had and what role that person was asked to play in the fight. And even knowing all those factors, how do I compare those to what I and others have recorded for ourselves?
I'm in a guild that does weekly visits to Kara, but hasn't yet been as far as Gruul. Our server is still very young. So there is, of course, a cap on the quality of gear I can obtain. That said, I feel im fairly well equiped.
I was hoping people could provide some critique, and perhaps present their own data, on how their specs/builds perform on a normalized Dr.Boom testing. It would be really interesting to see how we all compare to each other when all other factors are normalized. To see what really is achievable. Theorycrafting on paper is all very well, but It would be very beneficial to be able to look at peoples profiles and specs and compare Dr.Boom stats, to see what more is achievable, and how to achieve it.
I going to take a trip to see MR.Boom himself just now. Using only a simple spamming macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();
Only self buffs(only hawk for me, others might have TA) and hunters mark. I'll have my pet active for FF. Apart from that, no pots or food or any other fancy spells
My profile is The Armory so people can see my gear.
My spec is 7-20-34 (also viewable in my profile)
I'll do 4 mana bars to hopefully even out any randomness.
I'll post my boom results shortly. Hopefully others would like to take 5 minutes to do the same. It would make interesting reading for me personally, and I'm sure others too.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
OK so these are my numbers here. I did 5 mana bars on Boom. Each one lasting 2 mins(I feigned when hunters mark timed out...coincidentally the same time as my mana lasts).
If anyone more in the know than I can provide any critique, that would be great. Or if people would like to do similar to see how we compare with the same buffs/macros/target but different builds/talents/gears etc.
The bottom box is SWS showing the DPS over the 5 sessions.
I'm feeling that my average shots are hitting for a lot less than other peoples arre(that I read on the forum). Also a lot less than Cheekys SS suggests I could be. Any constructive criticism?
EDIT: I just remembered that I forgot to have my pet active. Which is 2% extra damage I could have got. So it should read a fraction under 700dps.
EDIT2: Does anyone know the armour rating of Dr.Boom so I can plug the numbers into Cheeky's SS and see what it thinks I should be getting?
If anyone more in the know than I can provide any critique, that would be great. Or if people would like to do similar to see how we compare with the same buffs/macros/target but different builds/talents/gears etc.
The bottom box is SWS showing the DPS over the 5 sessions.
I'm feeling that my average shots are hitting for a lot less than other peoples arre(that I read on the forum). Also a lot less than Cheekys SS suggests I could be. Any constructive criticism?
EDIT: I just remembered that I forgot to have my pet active. Which is 2% extra damage I could have got. So it should read a fraction under 700dps.
EDIT2: Does anyone know the armour rating of Dr.Boom so I can plug the numbers into Cheeky's SS and see what it thinks I should be getting?
Last edited by Carlaena : 07/11/07 at 4:37 PM.
A quick search (boom+armor) gave a post stating a 38% armor reduction.
Keep in mind if you're using the spreadsheet, the RAP gain from the mark won't be 440 (like the spreadsheet lists it as) before you've fired 30 shots.
In other words, your average damage will be lower since the spreadsheet is using a 440 RAP bonus instead of the 110 --> 440 RAP bonus.
Keep in mind if you're using the spreadsheet, the RAP gain from the mark won't be 440 (like the spreadsheet lists it as) before you've fired 30 shots.
In other words, your average damage will be lower since the spreadsheet is using a 440 RAP bonus instead of the 110 --> 440 RAP bonus.
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Originally Posted by Lactose
A quick search (boom+armor) gave a post stating a 38% armor reduction.
Keep in mind if you're using the spreadsheet, the RAP gain from the mark won't be 440 (like the spreadsheet lists it as) before you've fired 30 shots. In other words, your average damage will be lower since the spreadsheet is using a 440 RAP bonus instead of the 110 --> 440 RAP bonus. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
0/24/37 spec and TK 3/4 farm day.
Used Major Agility Elixir and Warp Burger each fight + had totem (1043agi)
(void reaver shows try1, should be death as it definitely did fall )
Zek - WWS
3/3 TotH mana regain is just great.
Used Major Agility Elixir and Warp Burger each fight + had totem (1043agi)
(void reaver shows try1, should be death as it definitely did fall )
Zek - WWS
3/3 TotH mana regain is just great.
Last edited by Sapa : 07/11/07 at 6:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Carlaena
Thanks for the 38%. A big help. Wow, the first time I've been able to model the spreadsheet and test it fully. It's almost spot on with my DPS once I plug in armour rating and the correct rotation.
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What Lactose said about the Hunter's Mark is correct. You can adjust for it in the spreadsheet by setting the spell rank to 0, and not casting it in your tests. This may not give you "true" DPS numbers, but if you can verify the spreadsheet is accurate without it, we can assume adding +440 RAP will be accurate too. (In most boss fights, especially 25 man raids, you'll spend 90+% of the time with HM maxed out.)
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
I'm trying to make a quick list of agility items (didn't see anyone make one yet), to see how high i can get my agility with gear alone.
But i'm missing a certain detail, what is the base agility at lvl 70? Note: I'm still lacking Tier 5/6 on the list below, but they'll be added as well eventually. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi all,
After extensive reading I've decided it is time to try Survival. I am yet to have optimal gear, but with some re-gemming and re-enchanting of select gear I aim to hit ~850 agility, raid buffed.
This is the first time I have specced Survival since TBC and am looking for advice on my build.
Link below.
Thanks in advance.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Not sure about Expose Weakness and ToTH? Contemplating having 2/3 in both talents. With the high crit rate of Survival, is it safe to assume that EW will be procced for the majority of an encounter?
I anticipate I'll be providing ~320AP and ~650RAP for the raid.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that this is primarily a EW "Martyr" spec, maximising agility. Is Combat Experience and Efficiency worth it? I was contemplating iAoTH and Focused Fire (and dropping Scatter Shot).
After extensive reading I've decided it is time to try Survival. I am yet to have optimal gear, but with some re-gemming and re-enchanting of select gear I aim to hit ~850 agility, raid buffed.
This is the first time I have specced Survival since TBC and am looking for advice on my build.
Link below.
Thanks in advance.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Not sure about Expose Weakness and ToTH? Contemplating having 2/3 in both talents. With the high crit rate of Survival, is it safe to assume that EW will be procced for the majority of an encounter?
I anticipate I'll be providing ~320AP and ~650RAP for the raid.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that this is primarily a EW "Martyr" spec, maximising agility. Is Combat Experience and Efficiency worth it? I was contemplating iAoTH and Focused Fire (and dropping Scatter Shot).
Last edited by Reebz : 07/12/07 at 2:41 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
Don't be afraid to add the appropriate leather pieces as well. Some of them are quite good early on, such as the gloves from attumen or boots from moroes.
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Edit: Found it http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t9274-hu...nics_v2_0_tbc/
The "Band of eternity" is actually 27 Agility, it just shows weird because there are multiple items with the same name.
If the base value at lvl 70 is 150, then 1400 agility fully buffed would be possible it seems. (350 ap from buff)
If you notice anything else missing please let me know and i'll add it.
Edit: Moved to post #17 : http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html
Last edited by Zurgat : 11/27/07 at 8:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
Don't be afraid to add the appropriate leather pieces as well. Some of them are quite good early on, such as the gloves from attumen or boots from moroes.
|
I fully expect this approach to gearing to hold true as I unlock more powerful bosses.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Some slots have items with higher agility.
Back : green [Amber Cape] of of Agility, 32 agi
Twohander [Deepforge Broadaxe] of Agility, 56 Agi
Ring [Amber Band] of Agility, 32 agi
Trinket : [Alchemist's Stone], 15 agi
Hard to count metagem in tier6 because we fill all gemslots with red only.
Good endgame survival ranged is [Legionkiller] with 21 agi.
For belt, being survival hunter I still have not decided between [Belt of Deep Shadow] and [Belt of the Black Eagle] (17+20).
Back : green [Amber Cape] of of Agility, 32 agi
Twohander [Deepforge Broadaxe] of Agility, 56 Agi
Ring [Amber Band] of Agility, 32 agi
Trinket : [Alchemist's Stone], 15 agi
Hard to count metagem in tier6 because we fill all gemslots with red only.
Good endgame survival ranged is [Legionkiller] with 21 agi.
For belt, being survival hunter I still have not decided between [Belt of Deep Shadow] and [Belt of the Black Eagle] (17+20).
Last edited by Hunterlin : 07/12/07 at 10:48 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Added Alchemist's Stone, belt of the black and Legionkiller.
Also added socket bonus for some items with only red sockets.
Greens, oh boy.
I doubt anyone would actually end up using those, but if you have exact stats on which ones would provide certain ammounts of Agility, i can add them into the list.
For some items you can use dual color gems that give agi + hit.
Since the socket bonus from some items is +3/4 crit or agility combined with the +12 from the metagem you'd still end up on top.
And the +3% damage from crits will count for quite a heavy bonus also.
Like these:
[Glinting Noble Topaz]
[Shifting Nightseye]
[Glinting Fire Opal]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
Also added socket bonus for some items with only red sockets.
Greens, oh boy.
I doubt anyone would actually end up using those, but if you have exact stats on which ones would provide certain ammounts of Agility, i can add them into the list.
For some items you can use dual color gems that give agi + hit.
Since the socket bonus from some items is +3/4 crit or agility combined with the +12 from the metagem you'd still end up on top.
And the +3% damage from crits will count for quite a heavy bonus also.
Like these:
[Glinting Noble Topaz]
[Shifting Nightseye]
[Glinting Fire Opal]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/12/07 at 11:06 AM.
Changed item names with tags now.
Rings and cape +32 agi, any lvl70 green twohander 56 agi.
I added them just for discussion about theoretical limit, as some of these blues will no one use too(like [Terokk's Quill]).
Rings and cape +32 agi, any lvl70 green twohander 56 agi.
I added them just for discussion about theoretical limit, as some of these blues will no one use too(like [Terokk's Quill]).
Socketing not red gems you lose 20 AGI from 4 gems to fit to metagem requirements. Good thing, that 12 from metagem and 4+4 from socket bonuses from [Ranger-General's Chestguard] and [Void Reaver Greaves] equals this.
So overall fitting socket requirements may be good thing from gained other stats.
So overall fitting socket requirements may be good thing from gained other stats.
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
I'm trying to make a quick list of agility items (didn't see anyone make one yet), to see how high i can get my agility with gear alone.
|
As an extreme example, the +8 AGI libram on helm is never useful compared to the Cenarion Glyph of Ferocity. It would provide 10.12 buffed AGI, or 2.53 AP per raider generously assuming 100% uptime. At an equally generous 15 people in the raid to benefit from it, the overall raid benefit would be 37.95 + 10.12 = 48.07 AP which is worse than 34 AP 16 hit rating you could provide by yourself.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Trohck
An obvious caveat is that stacking agility completely over other stats (particularly crit rating, but also hit rating and attack power) is not worthwhile. I like your list as a good reference for high-AGI items, but in several cases, items with higher AGI are actually worse overall, even considering buffs.
As an extreme example, the +8 AGI libram on helm is never useful compared to the Cenarion Glyph of Ferocity. It would provide 10.12 buffed AGI, or 2.53 AP per raider generously assuming 100% uptime. At an equally generous 15 people in the raid to benefit from it, the overall raid benefit would be 37.95 + 10.12 = 48.07 AP which is worse than 34 AP 16 hit rating you could provide by yourself. |
Take [Ring of Lethality] vs [Pathfinder's Band], for example.
There's an obvious increase in stats by downranking your agility in some cases. (not all epics will be immediately available to everyone)
By adding lower rank items along the list, people will be able to pick out items as they progress from blues to tier 4 - tier 6.
In the end it's up for personal preferences, i can't decide for others what to use.
I could add AEP values to make the quality of items clearer.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/13/07 at 3:01 AM.
How would [Badge of Tenacity] work with Expose Weakness?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by malavel
How would [Badge of Tenacity] work with Expose Weakness?
|
It'd overwrite the highest value of the buff currently active, and when tenacity runs out it wil be unable to refresh it until the expose weakness run out.
Over time it works out to about 25 agility. Quite a nice find actually.
2 Minute cooldown.
120/20 = 6
150/6 = 25 Agility
Added to the list, along with the greens.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/13/07 at 2:48 AM.
Only one fix
(819 + 150 + 183) * 1.15 * 1.10 = ~1457 Agility
Kings and LR stack multiplicativily.
(819 + 150 + 183) * 1.15 * 1.10 = ~1457 Agility
Kings and LR stack multiplicativily.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
Only one fix
(819 + 150 + 183) * 1.15 * 1.10 = ~1457 Agility Kings and LR stack multiplicativily. |
Also :
* Added a leather chest from 2.2 (violet eye faction)
* Added some 1h weapons due to the new +20 agi enchant for 1 handers coming in 2.2
* Added itemlinks to food buffs and agility potion.
* Added some ranged weapons.
* Moved enchants to seperate subsection
* Listed modifiers
Now having this list, i wonder what the highest total agility is that any survival hunter's had in-game.
(Obviously night elves will be the highest ones)
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/13/07 at 9:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
Now having this list, i wonder what the highest total agility is that any survival hunter's had in-game.
(Obviously night elves will be the highest ones) |
PS: On a side note, with regard to the comment earlier about stacking agi not being worth it, that is true if you are talking about using say a green "of agility" item over an epic item, but if you are meaning stacking agi gems then you are dead wrong. Even for BM/MM, if you can assume the presence of Kings the 8agi gems will almost 100% of the time beat out anyother gem choice for a kara+ geared hunter, and for SV hunters they are far and wide the better choice.
Edit: For reference armory profile here.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
I'm about to hit 1100 agi with just kings, agi elixir, and agi food. I picked up the Void Reaver Greaves last night and need to get 2 more Living Rubies and another cobra patch before I use them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are hunters out there that have broken 1200agi (getting the boots from astromancer/vashj and getting the doomwalker gun would almost be enough to get me there now). And, yummy yummy gronnstalker will make it even easier for us to reach even higher levels of agi.
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And would you mind posting any WWS?
Doing max special rotation:
Last night Tidewalker data says that I:
Do 1 shot per: 1.43 seconds
= 2.86 seconds for 2 shots seems just terrible
Well with Frost Trap duty and 2 graves... maybe its ok.
But Lady Vashj (with MD, 2x fd, 1 static) phase1.
1 shot per: 1.265
= 2.53 seconds witch actually is gain of "whooping" 0.1 second. (over 1:1 rotation with no hastes) But its gain regardless of disturbances in rotation.
Wow Web Stats - WWS
Guess I'll have to test on Dr.Boom since I always get something (fd/md/traps) in rotation in raids.
But still question for SV / MM hunters:
1. Stack haste (BT itemization, trinkets, iaoth...) and go to 1:1 rotation
or
2. Get slower bow(3.0), polish max special rotation
Anyone crunched numbers and compared those or thought about those two options. I'm trying to figure out if its worth to go in polishing... All those bars with all the CDs can make person tired rather fast.
Posting some MM/SV WWS would be really helpful
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Originally Posted by Sapa
Having similar gear(same weapon speed, 1k+ agi), i wonder what's your shot rotation with 5/20/36?
And would you mind posting any WWS? |
As for what shot rotation I try to keep up, I use a max special except when quick shots proc, then I tend to do a steady only (though if I am not distracted I'll try and do a replacement-rotation with mutli when quick shots is up).
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Shot rotation is actually one area that I've been thinking on lately myself. I'm not convinced I am doing an optimal one at all (particularly since I generally relegate myself to keeping scorpid up on most boss fights). About the only fight I ever get to just go full max-special rotations is on Astromancer (WWS, though that's colored a bit by the aoe phases (woot for stronger explosive traps :P ).
As for what shot rotation I try to keep up, I use a max special except when quick shots proc, then I tend to do a steady only (though if I am not distracted I'll try and do a replacement-rotation with mutli when quick shots is up). |
Zek - WWS
Using 0 hastes (except bloodlust), just max special rotation. (+frost traps / scorpid / mark...)
Wow, that scorpid poison is friggen godly :P
Now this might not be the right place to ask this, but one thing I've been thinking about is what is actually the best max special rotation. From what I can come up with, there are two options:
1) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-mutli-auto-steady repeat
and
2) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat
or there's also the option to plan on some cilp and do:
3) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady repeat
I'm fairly certain the 2nd one would be a net loss because you'd waste time when arcane is off cooldown waiting to launch another before using multi again, however, 3 just might be best for SV. I get the feeling of this because you get more shots in the over a given period of time (at the cost eventually of auto shots). Anyone more familiar with shot timings able to help me with the actual numeric values for these cycles?
Now this might not be the right place to ask this, but one thing I've been thinking about is what is actually the best max special rotation. From what I can come up with, there are two options:
1) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-mutli-auto-steady repeat
and
2) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat
or there's also the option to plan on some cilp and do:
3) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady repeat
I'm fairly certain the 2nd one would be a net loss because you'd waste time when arcane is off cooldown waiting to launch another before using multi again, however, 3 just might be best for SV. I get the feeling of this because you get more shots in the over a given period of time (at the cost eventually of auto shots). Anyone more familiar with shot timings able to help me with the actual numeric values for these cycles?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Wow, that scorpid poison is friggen godly :P
Now this might not be the right place to ask this, but one thing I've been thinking about is what is actually the best max special rotation. From what I can come up with, there are two options: 1) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-mutli-auto-steady repeat and 2) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat or there's also the option to plan on some cilp and do: 3) auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady repeat I'm fairly certain the 2nd one would be a net loss because you'd waste time when arcane is off cooldown waiting to launch another before using multi again, however, 3 just might be best for SV. I get the feeling of this because you get more shots in the over a given period of time (at the cost eventually of auto shots). Anyone more familiar with shot timings able to help me with the actual numeric values for these cycles? |
22:23'15.390 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 722 22:23'17.109 Zek's Steady Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 669 390 Zek's Arcane Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 876 Arcane damage 22:23'18.078 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 652 22:23'20.296 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1737 22:23'21.203 Zek's Multi-Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 914 593 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 691 22:23'23.562 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1810 828 Zek's Arcane Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 924 Arcane damage 22:23'24.828 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 691 22:23'26.812 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1615 22:23'27.406 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 622 22:23'29.140 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1709 --- End of rotation 984 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 608 22:23'31.515 Zek's Steady Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 705 890 Zek's Arcane Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 2134 Arcane damage 22:23'32.484 Zek's Auto Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1564 22:23'34.078 Zek's Multi-Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 2087 22:23'35.109 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 685 22:23'36.406 Zek's Steady Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 679 22:23'37.640 Zek's Auto Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1541 22:23'39.968 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1700 22:23'40.234 Zek's Arcane Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 2237 Arcane damage 22:23'41.234 Zek's Auto Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1691
*Auto, Steady+Arcane, Auto, Multi, Auto, Steady+Arcane, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady
24 shots in 26 (25.8) seconds. 45% crit (3% more than paperdoll)
29.263damage (~1134 dps)
If only I was able to keep this ratio up...
It seems I skipped 1 steady shot. I had 1 sec GDC after auto shot (due arcane) witch doesn't go well with steady+multi.
I don't have set rotation. I use Arcane and Multi when they are up and its possible to add after steady, or just replace steady if GDC is in the way. Seems to work, but i can't shake the feeling it can be improved. (with proper rotation)
I just imagined doing it without Quartz or any other cast bars. :s
Blizzard should really look into "hunter mechanics for newbies" I'm shooting Dr.Boom with each new recruit we get and with all that hunter alts that wish to "do dps".
Last edited by Sapa : 07/17/07 at 4:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
I don't have set rotation. I use Arcane and Multi when they are up and its possible to add after steady, or just replace steady if GDC is in the way. Seems to work, but i can't shake the feeling it can be improved. (with proper rotation)
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Originally Posted by Sapa
I just imagined doing it without Quartz or any other cast bars. :s
Blizzard should really look into "hunter mechanics for newbies" I'm shooting Dr.Boom with each new recruit we get and with all that hunter alts that wish to "do dps". |
MT Equation...
I've seen a lot of numbers out there, and I've been working with an "average" of 3.5 whenever I make quick assumptions on MT. I put together a spreadsheet earlier, and used the following equation:
FWS = Final Weapon Speed (after quiver, etc.)
MTP = Master Tactician Percentage (2% per point; 0.02 - 0.10)
SPC = Shots per Cycle (This gets rough, but it's your average shots per cycle based on rotation. I figured mine - steady + instant rotation - as being right at 2.7 damaging shots per cycle. This has to include 1x Auto and any damaging shots before the next auto, averaged out over time. Obviously there will be cycles with only steady. KC does not figure in since it can't proc MT.)
0.06 = Proc %
8 = Seconds of Uptime
( ( ( 0.06 * 8 ) / FWS ) * MTP ) * SPC
For the record, I simplified this after using a variety of "total shots tested" and it always ended up with the same results, so the simplified version should be solid.
So here's the question: Is there anything I'm missing here?
I have a feeling I am, but I've tested this for like 2 hours today, and played around with plugging in actual numbers (I used like 8 pcs of paper, woot analog) and then put together the spread sheet (which I'll put up when it's finalized).
Thing is, at a 2.34 speed (my current) I'm ending up with about 5.5% crit over time from MT using this formula, and while that actually seems correct with what I was seeing while I had MT, it's well above what most assumptions are. Even at a speed of 2.7 (3.1 with quiver) it's still at 4.7% over time.
FWS = Final Weapon Speed (after quiver, etc.)
MTP = Master Tactician Percentage (2% per point; 0.02 - 0.10)
SPC = Shots per Cycle (This gets rough, but it's your average shots per cycle based on rotation. I figured mine - steady + instant rotation - as being right at 2.7 damaging shots per cycle. This has to include 1x Auto and any damaging shots before the next auto, averaged out over time. Obviously there will be cycles with only steady. KC does not figure in since it can't proc MT.)
0.06 = Proc %
8 = Seconds of Uptime
( ( ( 0.06 * 8 ) / FWS ) * MTP ) * SPC
For the record, I simplified this after using a variety of "total shots tested" and it always ended up with the same results, so the simplified version should be solid.
So here's the question: Is there anything I'm missing here?
I have a feeling I am, but I've tested this for like 2 hours today, and played around with plugging in actual numbers (I used like 8 pcs of paper, woot analog) and then put together the spread sheet (which I'll put up when it's finalized).
Thing is, at a 2.34 speed (my current) I'm ending up with about 5.5% crit over time from MT using this formula, and while that actually seems correct with what I was seeing while I had MT, it's well above what most assumptions are. Even at a speed of 2.7 (3.1 with quiver) it's still at 4.7% over time.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Zeisha
I've seen a lot of numbers out there, and I've been working with an "average" of 3.5 whenever I make quick assumptions on MT. I put together a spreadsheet earlier, and used the following equation:
FWS = Final Weapon Speed (after quiver, etc.) MTP = Master Tactician Percentage (2% per point; 0.02 - 0.10) SPC = Shots per Cycle (This gets rough, but it's your average shots per cycle based on rotation. I figured mine - steady + instant rotation - as being right at 2.7 damaging shots per cycle. This has to include 1x Auto and any damaging shots before the next auto, averaged out over time. Obviously there will be cycles with only steady. KC does not figure in since it can't proc MT.) 0.06 = Proc % 8 = Seconds of Uptime ( ( ( 0.06 * 8 ) / FWS ) * MTP ) * SPC For the record, I simplified this after using a variety of "total shots tested" and it always ended up with the same results, so the simplified version should be solid. So here's the question: Is there anything I'm missing here? I have a feeling I am, but I've tested this for like 2 hours today, and played around with plugging in actual numbers (I used like 8 pcs of paper, woot analog) and then put together the spread sheet (which I'll put up when it's finalized). Thing is, at a 2.34 speed (my current) I'm ending up with about 5.5% crit over time from MT using this formula, and while that actually seems correct with what I was seeing while I had MT, it's well above what most assumptions are. Even at a speed of 2.7 (3.1 with quiver) it's still at 4.7% over time. |
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat
Once you find a fully repeatable cycle (aka, can always be done, over and over again), take the number of shots and divide it by the duration. With that cycle and my current weapon I would get about .992 shots per second (2.52 speed * 4 autoshot-long cycle gives me 10.08 second cycle with 10 shots per cycle).
This actually kinda relates to our shot-cycle discussion, it would seem with MT that a cycle like:
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady
might get you more shots, let's see...(2.52*5 =12.6, but with the slight auto-delay needed to pull this off it's really 13.04, with 13 shots gets you .996 shots per second). So it would seem, that if you can keep it up perfectly this second rotation gets you more shots per second (and thus more damage, more MTs, more EW, etc). At least, it's true w/ my current gun and haste effects.
Did Cheeky or anyone ever finalize a MT equation that takes re-procs into account?
EDIT: btw, taking my shot rotation questions to the shot rotation thread here.
Last edited by Groggan : 07/17/07 at 1:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
The thing to confirm would be your shots per second. To find it did you take a fully repeatable cycle and average it out? For instance, one typical fully repeatable cycle is:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat Once you find a fully repeatable cycle (aka, can always be done, over and over again), take the number of shots and divide it by the duration. With that cycle and my current weapon I would get about .992 shots per second (2.52 speed * 4 autoshot-long cycle gives me 10.08 second cycle with 10 shots per cycle). This actually kinda relates to our shot-cycle discussion, it would seem with MT that a cycle like: auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady might get you more shots, let's see...(2.52*5 =12.6, but with the slight auto-delay needed to pull this off it's really 13.04, with 13 shots gets you .996 shots per second). So it would seem, that if you can keep it up perfectly this second rotation gets you more shots per second (and thus more damage, more MTs, more EW, etc). At least, it's true w/ my current gun and haste effects. Did Cheeky or anyone ever finalize a MT equation that takes re-procs into account? |
In any case, that doesn't change the actual equation, which is what I'm trying to figure out if it is accurate. Re-procs I did not take into account, though really they "should" only account for about 0.009% overall give or take. I'll see if I can put together a realistic inclusion of that though.
Edit: Bad #
I think the key to accurately finding MT's worth is to find the %uptime, and use that to then find the effective crit increase. It seems to me the best way to do this would be to figure out the expected uptime of MT for a given time period. Since we can create repeatable cycles it would seem ideal to use a shot cycle as our time period (or more likely a string of shot-cycles to have a bit larger of a window). But, then you get into how many shots are going to fire while MT is up, which will rely on where in your cycle it procs (if it procs say on the first auto in an auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady section that would be 11 shots w/ +10% crit, as opposed to say procing on the first arcane in an arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady which would get you only 9 shots at +10% crit). Hmm...it would seem for MT a simulation really would be the best way to find it's average crit increase.
Has anyone done an MT simulation? I know there was talk about doing one for IAotH. Or is there some form of equation that could take these variable states into account?
Has anyone done an MT simulation? I know there was talk about doing one for IAotH. Or is there some form of equation that could take these variable states into account?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Groggan
I think the key to accurately finding MT's worth is to find the %uptime, and use that to then find the effective crit increase. It seems to me the best way to do this would be to figure out the expected uptime of MT for a given time period. Since we can create repeatable cycles it would seem ideal to use a shot cycle as our time period (or more likely a string of shot-cycles to have a bit larger of a window). But, then you get into how many shots are going to fire while MT is up, which will rely on where in your cycle it procs (if it procs say on the first auto in an auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady section that would be 11 shots w/ +10% crit, as opposed to say procing on the first arcane in an arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady which would get you only 9 shots at +10% crit). Hmm...it would seem for MT a simulation really would be the best way to find it's average crit increase.
Has anyone done an MT simulation? I know there was talk about doing one for IAotH. Or is there some form of equation that could take these variable states into account? |
Thing is, I didn't, in any way, record up-time of MT, just the end results for damage & dps.
I think I figured out the way of determining the re-proc average btw... trying to simplify it right now, but basically I came up with ~1%-1.5% less overall crit due to reprocs. That puts the results far more in line with our estimates.
Last edited by Zeisha : 07/17/07 at 2:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Did Cheeky or anyone ever finalize a MT equation that takes re-procs into account?
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Unless you really, really want Readiness, or your weapon speed is less that 15% ineffecient, you are always better off putting 6 points in low BM talents (IAotH and FF) than MT & Readiness.
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Originally Posted by Zeisha
Well, I did multiple in-game tests... what I did was set myself at 0/20/35 and fired off 200 shot intervals at full rotation. Then I would mana up and repeat. I did this 5 times (1000 shots fired). I then went to 0/20/41 (readiness doesn't matter for this test) and did the same thing. I ended up with ~6% higher overall dps. At the time I had the same weapon I do now, though slightly lower stats. Worth noting though also, I missed 1 shot more after I had MT, but I accounted for that. In any case, that was well over a month ago, and I didn't keep a log of it (my bad). So those numbers are approximations.
Thing is, I didn't, in any way, record up-time of MT, just the end results for damage & dps. I think I figured out the way of determining the re-proc average btw... trying to simplify it right now, but basically I came up with ~2% less overall crit due to reprocs. That puts the results far more in line with our estimates. |
Of course, tracking uptime is an even better method. If you have a combat log of the tests I can write a perl script to determine uptime of the Master Tactician effect.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Yep, it's correctly (to my knowledge) modeled based on the specified shot rotation in the spreadsheet. The numbers are accurate for any point after 8 seconds from the start of combat. It is a simple uptime calculation.
Unless you really, really want Readiness, or your weapon speed is less that 15% ineffecient, you are always better off putting 6 points in low BM talents (IAotH and FF) than MT & Readiness. |
I think I've got it damned near perfect on my spread sheet though, and the #'s are starting to seem a lot more in line with everyone's assumptions.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
You are going to have sample size issues with those tests. Total DPS doesn't matter so much as change to crit%. The difference between the two is the effect of MT. And even over 1000 shots there is going to be some variance. I did 4K shot tests for the hit rating stuff, and saw crit variances that were significant.
Of course, tracking uptime is an even better method. If you have a combat log of the tests I can write a perl script to determine uptime of the Master Tactician effect. |
I think I figured out where I was making an error in the formula though, and I think I've got down how to include re-proc correctly... at my current weapon speed and rotation I'm ending up with 3.2% crit over time using my setup. That seems dead on accurate with what I've experienced in-game in general.
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Originally Posted by Zeisha
Oh, I know... I was just providing one small example is all. I wouldn't trust those numbers for anything more than an approximated example anyway.
I think I figured out where I was making an error in the formula though, and I think I've got down how to include re-proc correctly... at my current weapon speed and rotation I'm ending up with 3.2% crit over time using my setup. That seems dead on accurate with what I've experienced in-game in general. |
Did you also catch my comment about not being able to fit 1.7 specials inside a 2.4s cycle? That's going to make a difference too, in reducing your chances to proc the buff.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
So how are you modeling it in your spreadsheet? The equation you posted to the official forums isn't really that accurate.
Did you also catch my comment about not being able to fit 1.7 specials inside a 2.4s cycle? That's going to make a difference too, in reducing your chances to proc the buff. |
Note: Brain is fried, and I need food... I just realized even in the new version I've got something bass ackwards. Starting from scratch after lunch. More and more though, 3.5 is still sounding like a solid average. :P
Last edited by Zeisha : 07/17/07 at 2:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Yep, it's correctly (to my knowledge) modeled based on the specified shot rotation in the spreadsheet. The numbers are accurate for any point after 8 seconds from the start of combat. It is a simple uptime calculation.
Unless you really, really want Readiness, or your weapon speed is less that 15% ineffecient, you are always better off putting 6 points in low BM talents (IAotH and FF) than MT & Readiness. |
The next question is has anyone ever modeled out the value of double rapid fires from readiness (aka, finding an optimal use-cycle for readiness and rapid fire and seeing how much it would improve your dps compared to a single rapid fire w/ IAotH)?
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Thanks for the response Cheeky, I'll poke around the formula page to satisfy my curiosity
The next question is has anyone ever modeled out the value of double rapid fires from readiness (aka, finding an optimal use-cycle for readiness and rapid fire and seeing how much it would improve your dps compared to a single rapid fire w/ IAotH)? |
You can then compute the DPS gain from Rapid Fire, and average that over the uptime/cooldown ratio. My gut feeling is Readiness would make it worth while in a fight where you can use it twice and the fight is over in 2-3 minutes, but in a 10-15 minute encounter IAotH is probably still going to be better. Rapid Killing might even be better over time than Readiness for that.
(Also not sure if I modeled RF to use a GCD or not.)
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
It may take some time, but you can "select" Rapid Fire as an ability in the Shot Rotation tab. It then speeds up everything until the effect wears off. With the way the Shot Rotation makes everything a true cycle by timeing back to the first shot, leave the first one as None.
You can then compute the DPS gain from Rapid Fire, and average that over the uptime/cooldown ratio. My gut feeling is Readiness would make it worth while in a fight where you can use it twice and the fight is over in 2-3 minutes, but in a 10-15 minute encounter IAotH is probably still going to be better. Rapid Killing might even be better over time than Readiness for that. (Also not sure if I modeled RF to use a GCD or not.) |
I'll take that over AIotH any day. FTR - I haven't had the opportunity for any 25-mans at this point, so all of my L70 raiding experience is in Kara. The few "longer" fights in there I have managed 3x Rapid Fires and 2x Abacus before, which was a ton of extra dps.
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Originally Posted by Zeisha
Important to note though.. if a fight was, for example, 7 minutes long, and you used your rapid/readi in the first minute, you could effectively have 5 rapid fires with Readiness and Rapid Killing. That's a lot of 40% speed boost. Combine that with having Abacus (if you use it) 3 times, and you've got yourself a CONTROLLED speed boost for around 25% of the fight.
I'll take that over AIotH any day. FTR - I haven't had the opportunity for any 25-mans at this point, so all of my L70 raiding experience is in Kara. The few "longer" fights in there I have managed 3x Rapid Fires and 2x Abacus before, which was a ton of extra dps. |
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
So do you drop down into a 1:1 rotation with Rapid Fire, or the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? If so, is the damage from just Auto/Steady superior to the Auto/Steady/Arcane/Multi? I know, for me, Auto Shot seems to be my least damaging shot these days (Kara+ gear).
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Of course... if AotV ends up being as good as it might be after 2.2... I may have to completely change how I do things. If it gets to the point where you're literally firing "free steady" at <10%, it could make for some very interesting changes.
Hi guys, first time poster, long time reader.
I'm a few days too late but on the issue of Zurgat's highest agility items the Ravager's Wrist Wraps of Agility (Karazhan Animal boss) have 41 Agility on them. I may or may not have them on in my Armory profile (depending on if I logged in PvP/PvE gear).
I'm a few days too late but on the issue of Zurgat's highest agility items the Ravager's Wrist Wraps of Agility (Karazhan Animal boss) have 41 Agility on them. I may or may not have them on in my Armory profile (depending on if I logged in PvP/PvE gear).
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Sup' guys, just want to contribute to this nice thread. ;D
I respecced survival and started getting the gear for it a couple of weeks ago and some days ago i tried the 5/20/36 build with iaoth, but I didnt like it very much. I felt that when aoth procced it totally messed up my rotations and was hard to adjust to it every time it popped. Especially when my computer isn't top notch so I dont have the best fps always. Now i use 0/27/34. My gear isn't totally awesome for survival just yet, but I have about 840ish agility fully raidbuffed, just need better luck with the epix.
I respecced survival and started getting the gear for it a couple of weeks ago and some days ago i tried the 5/20/36 build with iaoth, but I didnt like it very much. I felt that when aoth procced it totally messed up my rotations and was hard to adjust to it every time it popped. Especially when my computer isn't top notch so I dont have the best fps always. Now i use 0/27/34. My gear isn't totally awesome for survival just yet, but I have about 840ish agility fully raidbuffed, just need better luck with the epix.
Last edited by eulcon : 07/19/07 at 4:01 AM.
2/3 TOTH and 3/3 EW or 3/3 TOTH and 2/3 EW? Based on Cheeky's spreadsheet, with 3/3 TOTH the average recovery is about 19.03%, while 2/3 is 12.56%, with EW, 3/3 is 258.51 average +AP and 2/3 is 240.93.
I'm kinda at a lost at what the mana average recovery is, so if somebody more enlightened can explain it to me, that'd be great so I can decide whether 3/3 TOTH is more worth it over 3/3 EW.
I'm kinda at a lost at what the mana average recovery is, so if somebody more enlightened can explain it to me, that'd be great so I can decide whether 3/3 TOTH is more worth it over 3/3 EW.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
2/3 TOTH and 3/3 EW or 3/3 TOTH and 2/3 EW? Based on Cheeky's spreadsheet, with 3/3 TOTH the average recovery is about 19.03%, while 2/3 is 12.56%, with EW, 3/3 is 258.51 average +AP and 2/3 is 240.93.
I'm kinda at a lost at what the mana average recovery is, so if somebody more enlightened can explain it to me, that'd be great so I can decide whether 3/3 TOTH is more worth it over 3/3 EW. |
As for mana recovery, if you're in the group with a shadow priest then you'll have to worry about this less, but chances are that a BM hunter or mage will be put there instead.
I think this build covers everything you and the raid need fairly well, plus you get 3/3 + 3/3 :
* http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VxZVxbRVZIhhMhcMhVhh
* http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZVgbRV0GZIhhMhcMhVbb (Not sure about this one)
If you still end up with mana problems, and have another hunter in the raid(with imp mark) then you can switch the imp mark with Efficiency.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/18/07 at 10:58 AM.
I had this dilemma at one point. Tried 2/3 TotH and it was almost useless. 3/3 TotH is a lot better than 2/3 in practice.
You should take 3/3 in both talents, for now.
You should take 3/3 in both talents, for now.
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
I had this dilemma at one point. Tried 2/3 TotH and it was almost useless. 3/3 TotH is a lot better than 2/3 in practice.
You should take 3/3 in both talents, for now. |
Sorry if this has been answered before, but is there a spreadsheet around that calculates the amount of EW downtime you will get with 2/3 and a varying crit rate? For example with a 30% crit rate and 2/3 EW you will have on average X% uptime and Y% downtime.
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Originally Posted by Tweeti
I had 2/3 TotH for a long time because I was Readiness specced. The only thing I could say about it is that it was 33% less effective 3/3 TotH, which I am now specced. 3/3 TotH is great but I wouldn't give up a point in Mortal Shots for it.
Sorry if this has been answered before, but is there a spreadsheet around that calculates the amount of EW downtime you will get with 2/3 and a varying crit rate? For example with a 30% crit rate and 2/3 EW you will have on average X% uptime and Y% downtime. |
| Sorry if this has been answered before, but is there a spreadsheet around that calculates the amount of EW downtime you will get with 2/3 and a varying crit rate? For example with a 30% crit rate and 2/3 EW you will have on average X% uptime and Y% downtime. |
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Originally Posted by soulesschild
Cheeky's spreadsheet does it.
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I would say that 2/3 EW is enough at around 41% buffed. Perhaps someone smarter than me can spread some light on this with some mathskills.
This is my current build, for reference.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I've dropped surefooted completely - I'm over the hit-cap in my regular gear. I don't think any hunter who has cleared Kara/Gruul should have TOO much of an issue in that respect.
I'm a fairly newly specced Surv hunter and only have about ~850agi raid buffed, so I've kept 3/3 in both EW and ToTH.
In the future I plan to remove one point from EW and place it in GFTT, probably around 950-1000agi raid buffed.
I have 5/5 Imp. Mark also - basically this build is purely "EW Martyr... plus more".
I generally sit in the Top 5 for Gruul, which is nice, 660-720dps is the norm (fluctuates a little when I'm RL!). We're a newly progressed guild (yet to venture into SSC) so I look forward to getting my hands on some more agi-centric gear.
Unfortunately I've had terrible luck with Midnight Leggings and Hourglass of the Unraveller, hopefully once those shortcomings are addressed I MAY be able to move that extra point into GFTT a bit earlier than anticipated (as I'm usually with LOTP in raids, putting me at ~40% crit).
I hope that helps you Eulcon. I recommend you go back to the iAoTH build and lower your graphics settings or turn off some mods or make yourself an auto/steady/arcane macro to spam, if you're seriously having difficulty.
You're missing out on good opportunity to crit for your raid and keep EW up. Ever since I've specced 5/5 Imp. Mark and 3/3 EW, Rogues have been sitting atop our WWS logs and grinning all the way there!
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I've dropped surefooted completely - I'm over the hit-cap in my regular gear. I don't think any hunter who has cleared Kara/Gruul should have TOO much of an issue in that respect.
I'm a fairly newly specced Surv hunter and only have about ~850agi raid buffed, so I've kept 3/3 in both EW and ToTH.
In the future I plan to remove one point from EW and place it in GFTT, probably around 950-1000agi raid buffed.
I have 5/5 Imp. Mark also - basically this build is purely "EW Martyr... plus more".
I generally sit in the Top 5 for Gruul, which is nice, 660-720dps is the norm (fluctuates a little when I'm RL!). We're a newly progressed guild (yet to venture into SSC) so I look forward to getting my hands on some more agi-centric gear.
Unfortunately I've had terrible luck with Midnight Leggings and Hourglass of the Unraveller, hopefully once those shortcomings are addressed I MAY be able to move that extra point into GFTT a bit earlier than anticipated (as I'm usually with LOTP in raids, putting me at ~40% crit).
I hope that helps you Eulcon. I recommend you go back to the iAoTH build and lower your graphics settings or turn off some mods or make yourself an auto/steady/arcane macro to spam, if you're seriously having difficulty.
You're missing out on good opportunity to crit for your raid and keep EW up. Ever since I've specced 5/5 Imp. Mark and 3/3 EW, Rogues have been sitting atop our WWS logs and grinning all the way there!
HI,
I have looked around here more than a few times.
For Surv in a raid any opinions on the best Trinkets to use?
I have looked around here more than a few times.
For Surv in a raid any opinions on the best Trinkets to use?
After about a week's worth of time raiding with it I can attest to the fact that the Tsunami Talisman is pretty much amazing. With the high crit rate enjoyed by SV hunters the Fury of the Crashing Waves buff is up a lot (I'd give you some numbers but the WWS of our last Kael kill isn't up right now). The Hourglass is also quite good. I sadly am stuck switching my second slot between Bladefist's Breadth and the Mark of Conquest.
But it still has an internal cooldown like the Hourglass doesn't it?
So you either use Tsunami and the Hourglass for double procs or it's a tiny upgrade over your Hourglass slot.
So you either use Tsunami and the Hourglass for double procs or it's a tiny upgrade over your Hourglass slot.
Does it have an internal cooldown? I thought it didn't. I do know it stacks with hourglass at least (me thinks I need to do some BM runs).
Thrill of the Hunt
Just respecced to survival last night (I'd been wanting too for so long now!! ) and I realised that Thrill of the Hunt returns 40% mana cost of the BASE mana cost of shot used. Which is pretty nifty if you go for 5/5 Efficiency, meaning you get more than 40% of the FINAL mana cost of the shot you used. Here's a pic of final mana costs and mana return values from our shots (I have 5/5 Efficiency):
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3...anacostby5.jpg
This means that if you have 5/5 Efficiency and 3/3 TotH:
5/5 Efficiency:
BaseManaCost * 0.9 = FinalManaCost
3/3 TotH:
ManaReturned = 0.4 * BaseManaCost = ( 0.4 / 0.9 ) * FinalManaCost ~= 44.5% * FinalManaCost
So TotH returns close to 45% of the final mana cost of the shot used.
As an example, lets take steady shot:
With 5/5 Efficiency, the mana cost of steady shot goes from 110 to 99. With 3/3 TotH you'd expect 39-40 mana returned, which is 40% of 99 mana. However in reality, you get 44 mana in return, which is 40% of 110 mana, or just over 44% of 99 mana.
So yeah, TotH is even nicer than I thought for mana return
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3...anacostby5.jpg
This means that if you have 5/5 Efficiency and 3/3 TotH:
5/5 Efficiency:
BaseManaCost * 0.9 = FinalManaCost
3/3 TotH:
ManaReturned = 0.4 * BaseManaCost = ( 0.4 / 0.9 ) * FinalManaCost ~= 44.5% * FinalManaCost
So TotH returns close to 45% of the final mana cost of the shot used.
As an example, lets take steady shot:
With 5/5 Efficiency, the mana cost of steady shot goes from 110 to 99. With 3/3 TotH you'd expect 39-40 mana returned, which is 40% of 99 mana. However in reality, you get 44 mana in return, which is 40% of 110 mana, or just over 44% of 99 mana.
So yeah, TotH is even nicer than I thought for mana return
Interesting, I did not know this. Might be something to check for in Cheeky's spreadsheet.
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Originally Posted by Lactose
Interesting, I did not know this. Might be something to check for in Cheeky's spreadsheet.
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In an attempt to derail this thread, I was hoping to get some advice regarding Surv spec.
I just switched over from the powerhouse 41/20/0 BM build in hopes of providing more of a support/utility role in my guild's progression group. We currently have 2 excellent BM hunters who would consistantly outperform me (ranking 1-3 in raid dps, while I was 4-7 generally).
My current spec is 0/24/37 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft .
Gear: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen'jin&n=Miruman
Roughly 810 unbuffed agi and about 34% crit.
Shot cycle: Trying- Auto, Steady, Multi, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady but having trouble figuring out a good macro for it and timing my KCs right. With BM I had a great, spammable Auto/Steady/KC macro that worked really well for me.
My only raiding experience with Surv so far was the A'lar encounter last night on adds basically the whole fight.
Things I noticed:
- My personal DPS was way down.
- Switching targets constantly caused a lot of downtime on EW.
- The physical DPS group didn't seem to benefit enough from EW for me to justify the DPS gimp.
I definately intend on testing this spec further on some stand and shoot type fights (Mag, Gruul, Tidewalker, etc.) to see if last night was just a bad encounter to judge off of, but in the meantime I'd love any feedback I could get about my build, gear choices, shot cycle and macros I could be using.
I just switched over from the powerhouse 41/20/0 BM build in hopes of providing more of a support/utility role in my guild's progression group. We currently have 2 excellent BM hunters who would consistantly outperform me (ranking 1-3 in raid dps, while I was 4-7 generally).
My current spec is 0/24/37 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft .
Gear: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen'jin&n=Miruman
Roughly 810 unbuffed agi and about 34% crit.
Shot cycle: Trying- Auto, Steady, Multi, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady but having trouble figuring out a good macro for it and timing my KCs right. With BM I had a great, spammable Auto/Steady/KC macro that worked really well for me.
My only raiding experience with Surv so far was the A'lar encounter last night on adds basically the whole fight.
Things I noticed:
- My personal DPS was way down.
- Switching targets constantly caused a lot of downtime on EW.
- The physical DPS group didn't seem to benefit enough from EW for me to justify the DPS gimp.
I definately intend on testing this spec further on some stand and shoot type fights (Mag, Gruul, Tidewalker, etc.) to see if last night was just a bad encounter to judge off of, but in the meantime I'd love any feedback I could get about my build, gear choices, shot cycle and macros I could be using.
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Originally Posted by miruman
My only raiding experience with Surv so far was the A'lar encounter last night on adds basically the whole fight.
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Originally Posted by Malthes
I feel like this is your problem. Were both BM's also on adds? Ideally, a surv hunter should be hitting something that lots of other people are hitting as well, to take advantage of EW.
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Do you have a WWS of the Al'ar fight miruman?
In general, you will feel weak when it comes to personal DPS (except perhaps if you can get yourself a pocket feral drood and bm hunter). The strength of an SV build comes when you take into consideration the value of Expose Weakness. Really, it's hard to accurately get a feel for just how good Expose Weakness is, but to give a reference the BM hunter in my raid calculated out that he gets around 101DPS from my Expose Weakness (he gets about .37DPS per AP, and I am now running at 1100 agi raid-buffed with an elixir and food). That's just him, from what I can gather rogues typically get about .3DPS per AP (so 82DPS from my EW). I've yet to get any sense of warrior gain from AP, but I imagine for fury warriors it should be at least close to the rogues. Then you can factor in slight gains in DPS for the tanks, as well the resulting gain in TPS that allows for more DPS from threat-capped classes. Overall, it starts to become clear that EW is exceedingly powerful.
The question is, are you and your raid prepared to see your personal DPS appearing to be lack-luster compared to what it would be if you went back to BM?
In general, you will feel weak when it comes to personal DPS (except perhaps if you can get yourself a pocket feral drood and bm hunter). The strength of an SV build comes when you take into consideration the value of Expose Weakness. Really, it's hard to accurately get a feel for just how good Expose Weakness is, but to give a reference the BM hunter in my raid calculated out that he gets around 101DPS from my Expose Weakness (he gets about .37DPS per AP, and I am now running at 1100 agi raid-buffed with an elixir and food). That's just him, from what I can gather rogues typically get about .3DPS per AP (so 82DPS from my EW). I've yet to get any sense of warrior gain from AP, but I imagine for fury warriors it should be at least close to the rogues. Then you can factor in slight gains in DPS for the tanks, as well the resulting gain in TPS that allows for more DPS from threat-capped classes. Overall, it starts to become clear that EW is exceedingly powerful.
The question is, are you and your raid prepared to see your personal DPS appearing to be lack-luster compared to what it would be if you went back to BM?
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Do you have a WWS of the Al'ar fight miruman?
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Originally Posted by Groggan
The question is, are you and your raid prepared to see your personal DPS appearing to be lack-luster compared to what it would be if you went back to BM?
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I recall my first few raids as Survival were terrible. Now I'm back up there pushing the BM guys.
There's nothing really wrong with your gear and if you stick at it you will improve.
There's nothing really wrong with your gear and if you stick at it you will improve.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by miruman
In an attempt to derail this thread, I was hoping to get some advice regarding Surv spec.
I just switched over from the powerhouse 41/20/0 BM build in hopes of providing more of a support/utility role in my guild's progression group. We currently have 2 excellent BM hunters who would consistantly outperform me (ranking 1-3 in raid dps, while I was 4-7 generally). Shot cycle: Trying- Auto, Steady, Multi, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady but having trouble figuring out a good macro for it and timing my KCs right. With BM I had a great, spammable Auto/Steady/KC macro that worked really well for me. My only raiding experience with Surv so far was the A'lar encounter last night on adds basically the whole fight. Things I noticed: - My personal DPS was way down. - Switching targets constantly caused a lot of downtime on EW. - The physical DPS group didn't seem to benefit enough from EW for me to justify the DPS gimp. |
Skip KC for raid or two, use it when you get the "feel" of SV and will see gaps where KC can be sneaked in. SV 1:1.5 rotation is something you must get used to. You can't macro it.
Steady+auto macro can still be used, but multi / arcane need to be added manually.
On Al'ar you should really be on him not adds (p1 Al'ar, p2 Hit what rogues are hitting).
Al'ar is one of fights where I beat our BM hunters every time.
@Groggan
I asked our folks to give me feedback on ~250ap gain.
MT said: 30-40TPS
DpsWarrior (arms!): 70-80dps
Rogue: 70-90dps (depends on spec)
Enh.Shaman: 60-80
Missing bear tps/cat dps
WWS of 5x Al'ar wipe... (3 new people + fury specced OT = win)
Wow Web Stats
I'm SV. Others are BM.
Last edited by Sapa : 07/31/07 at 4:26 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by miruman
Shot cycle: Trying- Auto, Steady, Multi, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady but having trouble figuring out a good macro for it and timing my KCs right. With BM I had a great, spammable Auto/Steady/KC macro that worked really well for me.
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Macro 1 (castsequence): Auto/Steady (mash Arcane or Multi during the Steady Cast when they come up)
Macro 2 (castsequence): Auto/Kill Command/Steady (mash this macro during your Steady cast when KC comes up, feed in Arcane/Multi like above. After KC fired immediately mash macro 1 during the next steady shot cast)
Pros:
- your autoshots wont get pushed back by the KC and hidden 0.5s Autoshot casttime even when hasted. (because KC will fire before the steady)
- you can switch targets with no problems because you fit in multi/arcane manually
Cons:
- takes time to get used to switch between the 2 macros at the right time
Last edited by Emilykane : 07/31/07 at 5:05 AM.
@Miruman
Take your time to get used to the survival playstyle.
Once you got solid equipment you won't be too much lower in dmg compared to a BM.
At the moment I'm completely skilled for raid support, i.e. 5/5 in imp. marks, agi gear and no mana saving skills in favor for dmg skills.
I really like it, because it gives some solid dmg boost to all melees and hunters and it is by far not as boring as BM playstyle from my point of view.
Disadvantages are, that I have to drink mana pots on cooldown on every try and also on most bosses we farm.
Take your time to get used to the survival playstyle.
Once you got solid equipment you won't be too much lower in dmg compared to a BM.
At the moment I'm completely skilled for raid support, i.e. 5/5 in imp. marks, agi gear and no mana saving skills in favor for dmg skills.
I really like it, because it gives some solid dmg boost to all melees and hunters and it is by far not as boring as BM playstyle from my point of view.
Disadvantages are, that I have to drink mana pots on cooldown on every try and also on most bosses we farm.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
@Groggan
I asked our folks to give me feedback on ~250ap gain. MT said: 30-40TPS DpsWarrior (arms!): 70-80dps Rogue: 70-90dps (depends on spec) Enh.Shaman: 60-80 Missing bear tps/cat dps |
From the sound of it, most "pure" dps classes are gaining around .3DPS:1AP in SSC/TK level gear (hybrid dpsers seem to be a bit lower, lowest proly being feral droods). I suspect it will go up some as well with hyjal/BT gear (haste rating for instance should increase the value of AP). I'd be willing to bet a good conservative equation for raid-dps-contribution of EW may be something along the lines of:
N=number of physical dpsers A=your agi N * A * .0625
I'm a bit late to the thread, but on the topic of the value of Improved Aspect of the Hawk I did some DPS modeling and found it to be one of the worst talents you can take for DPS unless you are a BM specced Hunter. The thread where I break it down is over at tkasomething.com, so many of you may have already seen it.
It reduced my overall damage with MM by close to 100 DPS when I added AotH in to pretty much any build. The problem is when it causes you to go into a quick shot rotation, you use nothing more than Steady/Auto (or you can use Multi in place of a steady shot when it is up). Now for MM, that actually reduces damage a very large amount because the build counts on both Multishot and Arcane shot being woven in on top of steady shots to do good damage.
If you are curious to see what happens to your DPS when you remove all haste abilities and trinkets, load your gear and either a MM or survival spec into cheeky's spreadsheet. Put 5 points into Imp. AotH, load up on haste trinkets and/or end-game haste gear, and model your DPS. Then take the 5 points out and place them somewhere else, replace the haste items with the Hourglass and Bloodlust broach (or whatever you happen to have for your character) and take a look at your DPS with no quick shots and a max special rotation.
Now I did not do this for a suvival build, but if it is anything like the MM builds I think Imp. AotH should only be specced for BM hunters. When I get some time I will model the survival builds in the DPS sheet.
It reduced my overall damage with MM by close to 100 DPS when I added AotH in to pretty much any build. The problem is when it causes you to go into a quick shot rotation, you use nothing more than Steady/Auto (or you can use Multi in place of a steady shot when it is up). Now for MM, that actually reduces damage a very large amount because the build counts on both Multishot and Arcane shot being woven in on top of steady shots to do good damage.
If you are curious to see what happens to your DPS when you remove all haste abilities and trinkets, load your gear and either a MM or survival spec into cheeky's spreadsheet. Put 5 points into Imp. AotH, load up on haste trinkets and/or end-game haste gear, and model your DPS. Then take the 5 points out and place them somewhere else, replace the haste items with the Hourglass and Bloodlust broach (or whatever you happen to have for your character) and take a look at your DPS with no quick shots and a max special rotation.
Now I did not do this for a suvival build, but if it is anything like the MM builds I think Imp. AotH should only be specced for BM hunters. When I get some time I will model the survival builds in the DPS sheet.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
I'm a bit late to the thread, but on the topic of the value of Improved Aspect of the Hawk I did some DPS modeling and found it to be one of the worst talents you can take for DPS unless you are a BM specced Hunter. The thread where I break it down is over at tkasomething.com, so many of you may have already seen it.
It reduced my overall damage with MM by close to 100 DPS when I added AotH in to pretty much any build. The problem is when it causes you to go into a quick shot rotation, you use nothing more than Steady/Auto (or you can use Multi in place of a steady shot when it is up). Now for MM, that actually reduces damage a very large amount because the build counts on both Multishot and Arcane shot being woven in on top of steady shots to do good damage. If you are curious to see what happens to your DPS when you remove all haste abilities and trinkets, load your gear and either a MM or survival spec into cheeky's spreadsheet. Put 5 points into Imp. AotH, load up on haste trinkets and/or end-game haste gear, and model your DPS. Then take the 5 points out and place them somewhere else, replace the haste items with the Hourglass and Bloodlust broach (or whatever you happen to have for your character) and take a look at your DPS with no quick shots and a max special rotation. Now I did not do this for a suvival build, but if it is anything like the MM builds I think Imp. AotH should only be specced for BM hunters. When I get some time I will model the survival builds in the DPS sheet. |
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Originally Posted by Kaber
It reduced my overall damage with MM by close to 100 DPS when I added AotH in to pretty much any build. The problem is when it causes you to go into a quick shot rotation, you use nothing more than Steady/Auto (or you can use Multi in place of a steady shot when it is up). Now for MM, that actually reduces damage a very large amount because the build counts on both Multishot and Arcane shot being woven in on top of steady shots to do good damage.
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If you kept the same rotation under the effects of haste, what is the worst possible thing that could happen? At worst, your autos would fire exactly as if they were unhasted. This would mean no change in DPS, not a decrease. With haste, odds are you will see anywhere from a slight to significant DPS increase depending on how well you are able to adapt your rotation.
Trohck is right. If dropping to a 1-special rotation causes you to lose 100dps under IAotH, then the correct rotation for under IAotH is not a 1-special rotation (I'd guess it's the normal MM rotation with auto-clips being expected and accepted, your DPS gain will come during the auto-steady-auto portions of your rotation).
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Originally Posted by Trohck
This has come up a lot lately. Haste does not reduce overall damage, ever. The only thing that reduces overall damage is you making poor decisions due to haste.
If you kept the same rotation under the effects of haste, what is the worst possible thing that could happen? At worst, your autos would fire exactly as if they were unhasted. This would mean no change in DPS, not a decrease. With haste, odds are you will see anywhere from a slight to significant DPS increase depending on how well you are able to adapt your rotation. |
Compare these two:
0.0 Auto 0.0-1.3 Steady 1.5 Arcane 2.0-2.5 Auto 3.0-4.3 Steady 4.5-5.0 Auto 5.0-6.3 Steady 6.5-7.0 Multi 7.0-7.5 Auto 8.0-9.3 Steady 9.5-10.0 Goto 0.0 VS. 0.0 Auto 0.0-1.2 Steady 1.5 Arcane 1.75-2.25 Auto 3.0-4.2 Steady 4.2-4.7 Auto 4.7-5.2 Steady 6.2-6.7 Multi 6.7-7.2 Auto 7.7-8.9 Steady 8.95-9.45 Goto 0.0
The bottom one is again a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9 speed weapon and ~27% haste.
It looks good on paper, you adjust the rotation, cut some dead time and you finished your rotation in about a half second less time. However what happens when you get to the multi-shot the second time through that rotation? Your cool down isn't up, what do you do? If you slot a steady instead you will push the next auto back nearly a full 1.5s and all your gains (and then some) are gone. If you let the Auto fire and then slot a multi you just blew your opportunity to let an auto fire while your GC is ticking (again you lost all your gains and more). There is no good solution here. If you include variable latency the situation worsens.
However if you can get enough haste to take you down to a 1:1 rotation the gains are massive. There is also some room to improve if your 1:1.5 rotation is slower than your multi shot cool down, which can happen if your latency/reaction time is bad.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Haste/IAotH is viable for MM/SV but you need to have stacked haste of at least 10% and be using a [Barrel-Blade Longrifle]. That takes you down to the ~2 second rate of fire a BM hunter will have with a 2.8/2.9 weapon. Sadly there are no upgrades for that gun if you choose this route. The two endgame weapons are pretty terrible in terms of speed/itemization for everyone really. I guess they really were designed to say "You win PvE, go PvP!"
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Now you are asking, "why would that be?" Yes, you shoot as fast as a BM. Your pet, however, doesnt swing as fast as the BM's pet. That is one of the primary reasons a hasted MM build does not work. Believe me, I tried as hard as I could to make the DPS of a hasted MM build work since I thought it might allow me to take a good PvP spec for raiding (since it would be mana efficient as well). In the end it does not work. If you want to debate this point, begin modeling the DPS and maybe you will catch something I missed.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
This has come up a lot lately. Haste does not reduce overall damage, ever. The only thing that reduces overall damage is you making poor decisions due to haste.
If you kept the same rotation under the effects of haste, what is the worst possible thing that could happen? At worst, your autos would fire exactly as if they were unhasted. This would mean no change in DPS, not a decrease. With haste, odds are you will see anywhere from a slight to significant DPS increase depending on how well you are able to adapt your rotation. |
If you force it to meet your max special rotation, you gain absolutely nothing, nor do you lose anything. However you did just waste 5 talent points, so you DID essentially lose something. For a survival hunter you essentialy choose AotH or mortal shots. You can shave a tiny amount off your max special rotation assuming 0 latency (which I find to be completely unrealistic), or you can boost crit damage by 30%. For a MM you dont really lose anything, since there arent many other DPS abilities that AotH is taking from, but I'd rather spend them somewhere that they dont just get wasted entirely.
If you instead switch to a steady/auto rotation for the hasted shots, you DO lose DPS vs your standard max special rotation.
If you do not believe me, feel free to model the DPS in Cheeky's spread sheet to see what I am talking about.
| However if you can get enough haste to take you down to a 1:1 rotation the gains are massive. |
Last edited by Kaber : 07/31/07 at 2:05 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
To give you guys an idea of what I did, here's a copy/paste of an earlier post I made on the subject.
The following specs are the ones I used for MM (AotH vs non AotH):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
And my standard BM build:
The Armory
Using my current gear (with the exception that I swapped around bows based on speed to maximize the DPS and replaced my cloak with the Heroic one as I only own the crystalweave at the moment). I went with a Serpent Spine bow (Vashj) for the following set as it is the optimum ranged weapon and did a max special attack shot rotation:
-the spec without Imp AotH does 2037 DPS
-the one with it does 1975 DPS.
-Attempting a steady/auto rotation drops DPS to 1768.
Swapping to a BM spec with the same setup I got 1967 DPS with imp. AotH. Switching to the Barrel-Bladed gun from doomwalker bumped my DPS up to 2024.
I then went back to the MM spec and added the Crystal Weave Cloak, Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, 2 band's of Devastation, and a haste enchant on the gloves. I had the following results with the Barrel-Bladed gun (doomwalker) using a rotation with Multi-shot replacing steady every time it is up:
-the spec with Imp AotH Does 1949 DPS
-the spec without does 1866 DPS
-switching to the bow from Vashj does 1835 DPS.
I switched it to my BM build with the above setup and got 2107 DPS. When swapping to the Vashj bow I got 2066 DPS.
So haste is a BM stat, and unfortauntely won't do much to make MM/survival comparable. I did find it interesting that with no haste that MM build has an edge on BM.
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After doing that initial test, I found more haste gear from the end-game, plugged it in comparing it to basically T6 level gear (since the haste gear is on that level) and kept coming back to the same results. No matter how I adjusted the shot rotation, Marksman just does more DPS without AotH than it does with it (or for people that want to try and force the hasted speed to a max special rotation, roughly the same DPS).
A hasted MM spec does lower DPS than a non-hasted spec. Yes, I said lower. Why? Because while you could try and force a max special rotation, you just wasted a ton of stats on haste that you aren't using. Or you are using a steady/auto rotation which inherantly does lower DPS for MM than a max special rotation.
The following specs are the ones I used for MM (AotH vs non AotH):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
And my standard BM build:
The Armory
Using my current gear (with the exception that I swapped around bows based on speed to maximize the DPS and replaced my cloak with the Heroic one as I only own the crystalweave at the moment). I went with a Serpent Spine bow (Vashj) for the following set as it is the optimum ranged weapon and did a max special attack shot rotation:
-the spec without Imp AotH does 2037 DPS
-the one with it does 1975 DPS.
-Attempting a steady/auto rotation drops DPS to 1768.
Swapping to a BM spec with the same setup I got 1967 DPS with imp. AotH. Switching to the Barrel-Bladed gun from doomwalker bumped my DPS up to 2024.
I then went back to the MM spec and added the Crystal Weave Cloak, Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, 2 band's of Devastation, and a haste enchant on the gloves. I had the following results with the Barrel-Bladed gun (doomwalker) using a rotation with Multi-shot replacing steady every time it is up:
-the spec with Imp AotH Does 1949 DPS
-the spec without does 1866 DPS
-switching to the bow from Vashj does 1835 DPS.
I switched it to my BM build with the above setup and got 2107 DPS. When swapping to the Vashj bow I got 2066 DPS.
So haste is a BM stat, and unfortauntely won't do much to make MM/survival comparable. I did find it interesting that with no haste that MM build has an edge on BM.
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After doing that initial test, I found more haste gear from the end-game, plugged it in comparing it to basically T6 level gear (since the haste gear is on that level) and kept coming back to the same results. No matter how I adjusted the shot rotation, Marksman just does more DPS without AotH than it does with it (or for people that want to try and force the hasted speed to a max special rotation, roughly the same DPS).
A hasted MM spec does lower DPS than a non-hasted spec. Yes, I said lower. Why? Because while you could try and force a max special rotation, you just wasted a ton of stats on haste that you aren't using. Or you are using a steady/auto rotation which inherantly does lower DPS for MM than a max special rotation.
Last edited by Kaber : 07/31/07 at 2:26 PM.
I would counter with 2 arguments.
1) Efficiency and TotH do not increase burst DPS on paper, but for DPS over time we need it. IAotH saves mana if you switch to 1.3(from 1.5) special or 1:1 rotation during haste.
2) Latency slows 1.5 special rotation a lot. Haste partially compensates it.
If haste hastens rotation so that special is not up, leave it to next steady-auto. You may lose some dps by firing arcane or multi one steady-auto later, but gain mana efficiency by not delaying auto-steady.
1) Efficiency and TotH do not increase burst DPS on paper, but for DPS over time we need it. IAotH saves mana if you switch to 1.3(from 1.5) special or 1:1 rotation during haste.
2) Latency slows 1.5 special rotation a lot. Haste partially compensates it.
If haste hastens rotation so that special is not up, leave it to next steady-auto. You may lose some dps by firing arcane or multi one steady-auto later, but gain mana efficiency by not delaying auto-steady.
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
I would counter with 2 arguments.
1) Efficiency and TotH do not increase burst DPS on paper, but for DPS over time we need it. IAotH saves mana if you switch to 1.3(from 1.5) special or 1:1 rotation during haste. 2) Latency slows 1.5 special rotation a lot. Haste partially compensates it. If haste hastens rotation so that special is not up, leave it to next steady-auto. You may lose some dps by firing arcane or multi one steady-auto later, but gain mana efficiency by not delaying auto-steady. |
As for survival needing better mana efficiency, I think we can all agree that with TotH and Efficiency, Survival is not mana starved by any stretch. Many argue that it is more mana efficient than BM, which is the ultimate mana friendly max DPS raid build.
Now to make the argument for going to a steady/auto hasted rotation for MM based on mana efficiency - I make the argument that if your goal is to last longer and have high Raid DPS, MM is certainly not the way to go. And I think my numbers prove that. To say, "well you have better efficiency with the hasted build" while cutting your potential DPS a signifigant amount gives more credence to BM being the only really good DPS raid spec.
But back on the topic of survival - it is arguably the least mana hungry build a Hunter can take. To further reduce your DPS by taking hastes in the name of mana conservation strikes me as... well... unnecessary.
So, now I have some time and I'm playing with a survival build using gearing available to me at my current progression point. Its mostly the gear I currently have on my armory profile, only gladiator/pvp gear swapped in for the ebon set, and the heroic cloak in place of my crystalweave to boost my agility for a survival build.
For all specs I tried every weapon available through karazhan and found the Sunfury was heads and shoulders above everything else. I set my standard server latency at 0.3, which I think is fairly average for most people.
I did a standard 0/21/40 raid DPS build and dropped all points from MM to see what happened with DPS for survival when you add in AotH, so I compared 5/0/40 and 0/0/40. The DPS increased by roughly 30 with AotH no matter which weapon I picked.
Then I looked at the total DPS of a 0/21/40 build vs a 15/5/40 build vs a 5/15/40 build (yes im aware the last 2 are missing 1 point each).
0/21/40: 1760 DPS
15/5/40: 1665 DPS
5/15/40: 1669 DPS
No matter how I try to look at this, going for Mortal Shots far surpasses anything that Imp. AotH could possibly do for you. My next post will evaluate those builds at the T6 level of gearing with passive haste gear for a 1:1 shot rotation vs. the 1:1.5 rotation.
For all specs I tried every weapon available through karazhan and found the Sunfury was heads and shoulders above everything else. I set my standard server latency at 0.3, which I think is fairly average for most people.
I did a standard 0/21/40 raid DPS build and dropped all points from MM to see what happened with DPS for survival when you add in AotH, so I compared 5/0/40 and 0/0/40. The DPS increased by roughly 30 with AotH no matter which weapon I picked.
Then I looked at the total DPS of a 0/21/40 build vs a 15/5/40 build vs a 5/15/40 build (yes im aware the last 2 are missing 1 point each).
0/21/40: 1760 DPS
15/5/40: 1665 DPS
5/15/40: 1669 DPS
No matter how I try to look at this, going for Mortal Shots far surpasses anything that Imp. AotH could possibly do for you. My next post will evaluate those builds at the T6 level of gearing with passive haste gear for a 1:1 shot rotation vs. the 1:1.5 rotation.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
No matter how I try to look at this, going for Mortal Shots far surpasses anything that Imp. AotH could possibly do for you. My next post will evaluate those builds at the T6 level of gearing with passive haste gear for a 1:1 shot rotation vs. the 1:1.5 rotation.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Remember you need to fire off the macro to re-align shots every time you change haste values. I forgot to do this when I was tinkering around and it really screwed me up.
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But here comes some info on T6 gearing:
I plugged in all the best drops I could find on the armory for a non-hasted Survival build and got the following numbers for 1:1.5 shot rotations (with 1:1 during hasted intervals):
0/21/40: 2021 DPS
15/5/40: 1892 DPS
5/15/40: 1894 DPS
Then I went and plugged in every last piece of haste gear I could find and used the same builds (switching to the Barrel Bladed rifle reduced dps by an average of 15 vs. the serpent spine). Shot time dropped to about 2.1s, and I used a 1:1 shot rotation.
0/21/40: 1968 DPS
15/5/40: 1945 DPS
5/15/40: 1946 DPS
So the only conclusion I can come to is, once again, haste is only beneficial for a BM spec. On a slightly different note, the Dragonspine trophy is the worst trinket a hunter can have whether MM, Surv, or BM. It boosts DPS by less than just about any end-game hunter trinket.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
On a slightly different note, the Dragonspine trophy is the worst trinket a hunter can have whether MM, Surv, or BM. It boosts DPS by less than just about any end-game hunter trinket.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Careful there, I have only just begun to model this trinket. It provides nothing but +40 AP in the current version of the spreadsheet. Give me some more time to come up with a way to present the data and manage the shot rotations (up time calculations are done) and then look at it again.
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If Survival, you don't use IAotH, since Mortal Shots is obviously better.
If BM, you use IAotH unless you have so much haste that it hurts you.
Arguing about IAotH being useful is really only relevant for Marks specs, which is silly since you could contribute more to your raid by spec'ing BM or Survival (please send WWS if you disagree ).
If BM, you use IAotH unless you have so much haste that it hurts you.
Arguing about IAotH being useful is really only relevant for Marks specs, which is silly since you could contribute more to your raid by spec'ing BM or Survival (please send WWS if you disagree ).
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Originally Posted by Trohck
If Survival, you don't use IAotH, since Mortal Shots is obviously better.
If BM, you use IAotH unless you have so much haste that it hurts you. Arguing about IAotH being useful is really only relevant for Marks specs, which is silly since you could contribute more to your raid by spec'ing BM or Survival (please send WWS if you disagree ). |
But like I said, AotH is just plain bad for everyone but BM specs. I am curious why you are so ready to dismiss it when there was a lot of talk about AotH earlier in the thread and it is obvious people have been considering using it. I simply came along to try and alleviate any misconceptions about AotH being good for survival (or MM). Why exactly do you have a problem with that?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Kaber
How do you gain efficiency by firing more shots in a set period of time?
As for survival needing better mana efficiency, I think we can all agree that with TotH and Efficiency, Survival is not mana starved by any stretch. Many argue that it is more mana efficient than BM, which is the ultimate mana friendly max DPS raid build. Now to make the argument for going to a steady/auto hasted rotation for MM based on mana efficiency - I make the argument that if your goal is to last longer and have high Raid DPS, MM is certainly not the way to go. And I think my numbers prove that. To say, "well you have better efficiency with the hasted build" while cutting your potential DPS a signifigant amount gives more credence to BM being the only really good DPS raid spec. But back on the topic of survival - it is arguably the least mana hungry build a Hunter can take. To further reduce your DPS by taking hastes in the name of mana conservation strikes me as... well... unnecessary. |
- At 40% crit 3/3 TotH is only returning 16% of mana used (40% return on 40% of shots)
- 1:1.5 rotations utilize more mana costly shots (multi & arcane) unless you down rank
- TBW offers BM hunters 20% mana cost reduction 13% of the time (18 secs with 2min CD) 3% effectively.
- Easy to spec BM with Efficiency
BM example: Average 1:1 mana cost over 10 shots: 550
Surv/MM example: Average 1:1.5 mana cost over 10 shots: 945
Even if the BM hunter is firing 25% more in the time period that the Surv/MM hunter fires 10 shots, we are still talking 688 vs. 945 before talents.
Assuming both have 5/5 efficiency, BM hunter uses TBW every time it's up, Surv hunter has 3/3 TotH...
BM: (688*0.9)*0.97= 600 mana used
Surv: (945*0.9)*0.84= 714 mana used
In an equal period of time.
Granted I am not taking into account KC, Mend Pet or Rez Pet... but those are things ALL hunters use and while BM is the most depend on the above, they are also able to spec into mana cost reducing talents to accommodate.
Additionally, most Surv specced hunters are using off class gear with item value stacked toward Agi, which generally results in smaller mana pool and lower MP5 tick than traditional hunter gear.
Correct me here if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Surv is not the most mana efficient... It should however beat out MM. Regarding haste effects and savings they could result in, I would be interested to hear more.
Last edited by miruman : 07/31/07 at 5:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
hmmm. That would have been good to know :p
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Originally Posted by miruman
Having just switched from BM to Surv, I have noticed much more significant mana pool depletion. Even with 3/3 TotH and 5/5 Efficiency.
- At 40% crit 3/3 TotH is only returning 16% of mana used (40% return on 40% of shots) - 1:1.5 rotations utilize more mana costly shots (multi & arcane) unless you down rank - TBW offers BM hunters 20% mana cost 13% of the time (18 secs with 2min CD) 3% effectively. - Easy to spec BM with Efficiency BM example: Average 1:1 mana cost over 10 shots: 550 Surv/MM example: Average 1:1.5 mana cost over 10 shots: 945 Even if the BM hunter is firing 25% more in the time period that the Surv/MM hunter fires 10 shots, we are still talking 688 vs. 945 before talents. Assuming both have 5/5 efficiency, BM hunter uses TBW every time it's up, Surv hunter has 3/3 TotH... BM: (688*0.9)*0.97= 600 mana used Surv: (945*0.9)*0.84= 714 mana used In an equal period of time. Granted I am not taking into account KC, Mend Pet or Rez Pet... but those are things ALL hunters use and while BM is the most depend on the above, they are also able to spec into mana cost reducing talents to accommodate. Additionally, most Surv specced hunters are using off class gear with item value stacked toward Agi, which generally results in smaller mana pool and lower MP5 tick than traditional hunter gear. Correct me here if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Surv is not the most mana efficient... It should however beat out MM. Regarding haste effects and savings they could result in, I would be interested to hear more. |
That leaves me at 550 for BM vs 582 as survival. Now for BM I use rapid fire and berserk every time they are up (on their own if I can) and I have Imp. AotH which puts me up at a hasted shot time about 40-50% of the time. In general I use something more like 660+ mana per 10s as BM (from the looks of it your number of 688 is accounting for hastes). So I will take your numbers as representative of what I could see if I maximized everything. 688 with no efficiency (and I have zero mana problems) vs 714. I really don't see the need to drop your DPS by 10% to switch over to haste gear as a Survival spec in the name of efficiency. But thats just me.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
688 with no efficiency (and I have zero mana problems) vs 714. I really don't see the need to drop your DPS by 10% to switch over to haste gear as a Survival spec in the name of efficiency. But thats just me.
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I suppose I should investigate down ranking my shots and ditching Efficiency, but I still need the points in the lower tiers of MM to get Mortal Shots and it's always seemed like one of the better uses of MM points at that level.
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Originally Posted by miruman
Agreed, a 10% DPS drop would not justify the mana conservation. I must have missed that part :P.
I suppose I should investigate down ranking my shots and ditching Efficiency, but I still need the points in the lower tiers of MM to get Mortal Shots and it's always seemed like one of the better uses of MM points at that level. |
But yeah, for survival if you downrank to multi-shot 1 that only reduces damage by ~200-300 per 10s cycle or 20-30 DPS which is a smaller loss to get better mana efficiency than BM at 582 vs the 688 we are probably currently burning. Comparatively you would have to completely switch up your gear to allow for haste gear, which rarely has good agility/crit stats.
Anyway, I'm off to try survival next week. This thread has actually helped a lot in my decision.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
Why exactly do you have a problem with that?
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Originally Posted by Kaber
But there are still people who do, and the 15/43/3 spec allows them incredible DPS.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
So the only conclusion I can come to is, once again, haste is only beneficial for a BM spec.
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BM (41/20/0) nominal dps: 1829 MAX DPS: 1983 at additional haste +225
MM (18/43/0) nominal dps: 1777 MAX DPS: 2230 at additional haste +486
MM (18/43/0) DPS: 2060 at haste +225
Note the shot rotation is the same for all dps cases above. (Tweaking the shot rotation for MM gets me to around 1787 but not much more.)
I'd say that haste is beneficial for ALL specs, and once you have enough haste MM will easily dominate BM. That even makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Apologies, I didn't mean to sound dismissive. I'm agreeing with you, I feel the choice of Mortal Shots over IAotH is completely obvious as a Survival spec.
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here is a build with both. It doesn't concede any DPS talents to get there either. The choice is between IAotH and Master Tactician or IAotH and Barrage w/ 2 more points for fluff elsewhere. Of those choices I am beginning to think the Barrage build may be best after seeing the % of my damage made up by multi-shot on boss-fights. This may be a good build now that I think about it (hmm...perhaps some Dr. Boom testing is in order on the test realm).
Really, it is a shame that MT is such a horrible investment.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Apologies, I didn't mean to sound dismissive. I'm agreeing with you, I feel the choice of Mortal Shots over IAotH is completely obvious as a Survival spec.
I'm assuming your analysis here is using Cheeky's spreadsheet? Anyone able to provide a WWS or three to support this? |
Basically he said Thott is always top DPS with the version of the 15/43/3 spec with AotH (which after modeling it in Cheeky's DPS sheet I found to reduce DPS below a spec without it, but hey, it works for him I guess), and that their BM hunter has never been able to pass Thott. At the pre-Hyjal/BT gear level I see why that is the case because that is precisely what Cheeky's DPS sheet is showing. And they do group him with a Shadowpriest from what my friend says, so mana with a MM spec wouldn't be an issue. I did try it for a very short time. Needless to say I do not get the luxury of a shadowpriest, and ran myself out of mana very quickly which led to a very subpar performance. People that regularly raid as MM might be more capable of using their mana wisely than I did since I normally raid as BM.
Now to try and get the WWS.
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Originally Posted by Cranch
Funny, I get a very different conclusion. Using my gear (Karazhan level, 1 TK item)
BM (41/20/0) nominal dps: 1829 MAX DPS: 1983 at additional haste +225 MM (18/43/0) nominal dps: 1777 MAX DPS: 2230 at additional haste +486 MM (18/43/0) DPS: 2060 at haste +225 Note the shot rotation is the same for all dps cases above. (Tweaking the shot rotation for MM gets me to around 1787 but not much more.) I'd say that haste is beneficial for ALL specs, and once you have enough haste MM will easily dominate BM. That even makes sense. |
Did you take your current gear and just randomly add a bunch of haste rating? If you took your current gear and replaced it with the T6 haste gear, I would expect your DPS to go up some simply by the merrits of going from T4 to T6 quality gear.
It would help a lot to know more about your methods for coming to those numbers.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
Did you reset the shot rotations? With different shot speeds it will create very different results, and to get accurate results you need to reset the shot rotation every time you switch specs/gear. You said you used the same rotation for all of them, am I to assume you went with steady/auto for all 3? Did you account for latency? Also, keep in mind you cannot actually do a max special rotation with MM and count it towards your DPS when it is fully hasted.
Did you take your current gear and just randomly add a bunch of haste rating? If you took your current gear and replaced it with the T6 haste gear, I would expect your DPS to go up some simply by the merrits of going from T4 to T6 quality gear. It would help a lot to know more about your methods for coming to those numbers. |
I used the same steady/auto rotation for all cases. As I mentioned, I could change the rotation for MM and get somewhat higher dps for the unhasted case. I didn't do that because I was interested in the hasted case, where I only have time to do a steady/auto.
Ya, I set latency to 50ms, which is what I get.
"you cannot do a max special rotation with MM" ? if you mean I can't mix multi and arcane in with the steady, well I can actually, but I didn't.
Yes, I kept the gear fixed and added haste rating only. I was addressing your original statement, "Haste is beneficial only for a BM spec."
I claim that haste can never hurt you -- if that is the only thing that changes. Of course, if you are replacing an item with better stats with a haste item, then the haste ITEM can hurt. But haste ITSELF can NEVER hurt you. At the worst, it doesn't change your dps.
Once we get more haste items, we'll all be switching back to MM...
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Originally Posted by Cranch
Once we get more haste items, we'll all be switching back to MM...
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Haste will benefit SV as much or more than MM btw, more shots means more crits (means better efficiency and more solid ew uptime).
"Yes, I kept the gear fixed and added haste rating only. I was addressing your original statement"
This explains your results. You are so busy nitpicking over semantics you lost sight of the realistic applications of haste. Had you kept yourself grounded in gear selections that are actually available, you would see my statement is correct. When you choose haste you are picking it over other stats, and thus hurting yourself. I feel I have adequately proven that by analyzing the best possible gear selections and comparing them across the board for both hasted and unhasted builds.
Not only is using steady/auto only for an un-hasted MM unrealistic, but randomly adding in haste on top of your current gear looks as though you are purposefully trying to skew things merely for the sake of argument.
I have to question your methods and goals based on the way you approached the topic.
Now if You actually go back and compare the T6 gearing available for the builds and place them in the spread sheet, analyzing both Hasted and unhasted for MM and BM, then we can see what you actually get for DPS. I can randomly throw things like crit on top of builds and claim that Crit is going to be the best end-game stats, but that would not actually be proving anything beyond my ability to pick a stat and add it to my gear in ways that aren't actually possible.
This explains your results. You are so busy nitpicking over semantics you lost sight of the realistic applications of haste. Had you kept yourself grounded in gear selections that are actually available, you would see my statement is correct. When you choose haste you are picking it over other stats, and thus hurting yourself. I feel I have adequately proven that by analyzing the best possible gear selections and comparing them across the board for both hasted and unhasted builds.
Not only is using steady/auto only for an un-hasted MM unrealistic, but randomly adding in haste on top of your current gear looks as though you are purposefully trying to skew things merely for the sake of argument.
I have to question your methods and goals based on the way you approached the topic.
Now if You actually go back and compare the T6 gearing available for the builds and place them in the spread sheet, analyzing both Hasted and unhasted for MM and BM, then we can see what you actually get for DPS. I can randomly throw things like crit on top of builds and claim that Crit is going to be the best end-game stats, but that would not actually be proving anything beyond my ability to pick a stat and add it to my gear in ways that aren't actually possible.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I raid with Mark of Conquest + 2x oil + Major Mageblood + super/fel mana pots.
I get oom even with 5/5 efficiency and 3/3 toth without outside help (shaman or sp or healed pet)
It's one of reasons I dare not to even try MM atm.
@Kaber
Just curious, what raid buffs did you use for calculations? If any?
I have some spare time and will try to "beat" your results
Just need data on buffs, mob type and possible armor.
Also I use 200ms latency (~75ms connection, ~125ms reflex) and I feel I'm generous here.
Edit:
Just plugged my gear in v24 spreadsheet.
Added standard raid buffs (motw, kings, might, agi pot, warp burger)
Target: 0 armor, humanoid/beast/dragon/giant
All made with 1.5 rotation, 0 lag
I usually have LotP or improved GoA but not always same one so... not included.
shrani.si - slovenski strežnik za gostovanje datotek - Sometimes both ^^
1. My gear:
7/20/33 build: 2056 dps - 1.5 + steady at quick shots
0/24/37 build: 2078 dps
0/20/41 build: 2114 dps
2. Plugging in haste gear (126 rating only from: Fists, Wrist, 2xRing):
7/20/33: 2164 dps
0/24/37: 2146 dps
0/20/41: 2193 dps
3. Changing that 4 haste gear items with t6 quality things I would use (higher agility, 1 procs AP thats not modeled yet)
7/20/33: 2129 dps
0/24/37: 2151 dps
0/20/41: 2188 dps
@200 ms and :
1. (haste gear)
7/20/33: 2079 dps (1:1 rotation closes on 1.5 only in this case with 2035 dps steady spam)
0/24/37: 1996 dps
0/20/41: 2036 dps
2. (haste equivalent t6 agi gear)
7/20/33: 2089 dps
0/24/37: 2083 dps
0/20/41: 2117 dps
@200 ms and 6000 armor (kinda standard?):
1. haste
7/20/33: 1405 dps
2. agi
0/24/37: 1415 dps
0/20/41: 1438 dps
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My personal conclusion:
Getting haste and start spamming macro would be far easier and less error prone than sticking to 1.5 rotation and providing as big EW as possible (due having max agi gear instead of haste). See 7/20/33 with 200ms lag... steady spam there can be improved with more haste...
0/24/37 build is something that has "utilities" other 2 don't. Meaning Scatter Shot that I'm not ready to give it up. Saves my or someone else butt to many times. Or in case of 7/20/33 that lacks TotH and Scatter :/
I get oom even with 5/5 efficiency and 3/3 toth without outside help (shaman or sp or healed pet)
It's one of reasons I dare not to even try MM atm.
@Kaber
Just curious, what raid buffs did you use for calculations? If any?
I have some spare time and will try to "beat" your results
Just need data on buffs, mob type and possible armor.
Also I use 200ms latency (~75ms connection, ~125ms reflex) and I feel I'm generous here.
Edit:
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I plugged in all the best drops I could find on the armory for a non-hasted Survival build and got the following numbers for 1:1.5 shot rotations (with 1:1 during hasted intervals): 0/21/40: 2021 DPS 15/5/40: 1892 DPS 5/15/40: 1894 DPS |
Added standard raid buffs (motw, kings, might, agi pot, warp burger)
Target: 0 armor, humanoid/beast/dragon/giant
All made with 1.5 rotation, 0 lag
I usually have LotP or improved GoA but not always same one so... not included.
shrani.si - slovenski strežnik za gostovanje datotek - Sometimes both ^^
1. My gear:
7/20/33 build: 2056 dps - 1.5 + steady at quick shots
0/24/37 build: 2078 dps
0/20/41 build: 2114 dps
2. Plugging in haste gear (126 rating only from: Fists, Wrist, 2xRing):
7/20/33: 2164 dps
0/24/37: 2146 dps
0/20/41: 2193 dps
3. Changing that 4 haste gear items with t6 quality things I would use (higher agility, 1 procs AP thats not modeled yet)
7/20/33: 2129 dps
0/24/37: 2151 dps
0/20/41: 2188 dps
@200 ms and :
1. (haste gear)
7/20/33: 2079 dps (1:1 rotation closes on 1.5 only in this case with 2035 dps steady spam)
0/24/37: 1996 dps
0/20/41: 2036 dps
2. (haste equivalent t6 agi gear)
7/20/33: 2089 dps
0/24/37: 2083 dps
0/20/41: 2117 dps
@200 ms and 6000 armor (kinda standard?):
1. haste
7/20/33: 1405 dps
2. agi
0/24/37: 1415 dps
0/20/41: 1438 dps
---
My personal conclusion:
Getting haste and start spamming macro would be far easier and less error prone than sticking to 1.5 rotation and providing as big EW as possible (due having max agi gear instead of haste). See 7/20/33 with 200ms lag... steady spam there can be improved with more haste...
0/24/37 build is something that has "utilities" other 2 don't. Meaning Scatter Shot that I'm not ready to give it up. Saves my or someone else butt to many times. Or in case of 7/20/33 that lacks TotH and Scatter :/
Last edited by Sapa : 08/01/07 at 5:10 AM.
@ Miruman
Your right.. Mana efficiency for Surv Hunters also for me seems to be worse than BM or MM. No doubt about that.
Also, most of the "dedicated" surv gear doest not have any mana reg.
At some point, I skipped TotH completely for more dmg in the MM tree because I have to drink potions like mad anyway ;-) And I did not regret it; 3% more damage to all shots is really nice.
In my raid I usually manage to get Wisdom + mana seal on the mob + mana oil on weapon. In fight, from time to time I place myself in the group of our Shadowpriest for some 20 seks, be it for pet healing oder mana reg. For pet unfriendly fights like lurker or void reaver, usually a druid helps a bit with healing.
So, as long as the fight is no longer than 10 minutes, I just come around with mana without having to skip specials.
@ Kaber
Do not underestimate the trophy. Even for me as Surv it has a proc chance of some 1.3 ppm. The damage you gain by the haste is far superior than with hourglass for example. Also, it helps to to improve the uptime of EW. Usually, with trophy equipped, I equal the dmg of our BM hunter. With hourglass equiped my colleague gets the lead with some 50 DPS or so ahead of me.
I only use a auto/steady macro for the rotation. KC, multi and arcance I usually weave in according to cooldowns, so changing the rotation is not really a problem after some time to praxis.
Your right.. Mana efficiency for Surv Hunters also for me seems to be worse than BM or MM. No doubt about that.
Also, most of the "dedicated" surv gear doest not have any mana reg.
At some point, I skipped TotH completely for more dmg in the MM tree because I have to drink potions like mad anyway ;-) And I did not regret it; 3% more damage to all shots is really nice.
In my raid I usually manage to get Wisdom + mana seal on the mob + mana oil on weapon. In fight, from time to time I place myself in the group of our Shadowpriest for some 20 seks, be it for pet healing oder mana reg. For pet unfriendly fights like lurker or void reaver, usually a druid helps a bit with healing.
So, as long as the fight is no longer than 10 minutes, I just come around with mana without having to skip specials.
@ Kaber
Do not underestimate the trophy. Even for me as Surv it has a proc chance of some 1.3 ppm. The damage you gain by the haste is far superior than with hourglass for example. Also, it helps to to improve the uptime of EW. Usually, with trophy equipped, I equal the dmg of our BM hunter. With hourglass equiped my colleague gets the lead with some 50 DPS or so ahead of me.
I only use a auto/steady macro for the rotation. KC, multi and arcance I usually weave in according to cooldowns, so changing the rotation is not really a problem after some time to praxis.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
Had you kept yourself grounded in gear selections that are actually available, you would see my statement is correct.
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| So the only conclusion I can come to is, once again, haste is only beneficial for a BM spec. |
Now I just took a shortcut and looked at the partial derivative, agreed. So, in detail:
Haste build:
Gear: Halberd of Desolation, Forest Prowler's Helm, Choker of Endless Nightmares, Swiftstrike Shoulders, Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, Mail of Fevered Pursuit, Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, Grips of Damnation, Shadow-walker's Cord, Bow-stitched Leggings, Shadowmaster's Boots, Ring of Deceitful Intent, Band of the Ranger-General, Tsunami Talisman, Bloodlust Brooch, Bristleblitz Striker, 15% quiver, 37 dps arrows.
(Note: I avoid the issue of modelling the dragonspine and abacus haste.)
Total dps 2291 MM build 18/43/0, 0.1sec latency, 1 multi then steady/auto/steady/steady/auto mix
Total dps 2306 BM build 41/20/0, 0.1sec latency, 1 multi then steady/auto
Non haste builds have lower dps for both MM and BM. E.g., the best replacements are Gronnstalker gloves, shoulders of the hidden predator, don alejandro's money belt, and insidious bands.
That drops the MM dps to 2183 (shot rotation was adjusted for lack of haste.) Clearly, haste benefits the MM build, even including the effect of actual items. The equivalent BM dps appears to be 2106 (it's late though, I might have an error somewhere.)
I admit I was wrong about MM exceeding BM when you take actual gear with max haste into account. However, I suspect when we model the dragonspine and abacus haste properly, we'll see MM exceeding BM.
(Oh ya, buffs were: kings, might, warp burger, elixir of major agility. Best possible gems used (+10 agi).)
| Or in case of 7/20/33 that lacks TotH and Scatter :/ |
Though when I tried Kara as BM(for guild test) died often on trap duty due trap resists and no good escape (no deterrance, no scatter, pet on current raid target).
Back to Surv and no problems even without SS.
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
I have 7/20/34 with 1 point in TotH, we have 61 talent point at lvl 70. Scatter might not be that important past Kara.
Though when I tried Kara as BM(for guild test) died often on trap duty due trap resists and no good escape (no deterrance, no scatter, pet on current raid target). Back to Surv and no problems even without SS. |
7/20/34 - 2/3 EW + 2/3 TotH - possible
7/21/33 - 3/3 EW - 0 toth or only 1/3. :/
Still don't look better to me
Scatter lets see.
Almost all trash "not important", but raids go faster with less deaths - less deaths is usually good morale. While dying on trash multiple times = bad for some people (and we have enough of them). You can "see" how bosses are going to go simply to have death counter on. And if specific people are high on it, its better to give them "easier" tasks if possible.
TK
Alar - 0
Solarian - saved people, helps stop multiple (4+) mobs that go on AR Tanks Healer
Void - 0
Kael - no idea, was there 1x for first and only try we had, probably 0 use.
SSC
Hydross - Elementals?
Tidewalker - saved people (aoe)
Phantom Lord - 0?
Lurker - 0
Leo - Inner Demon
Vashj - elementals sometimes go trough DZ or are at ~200hp left... had few KBs with scatter
I would remind people on Kael trash... its easier if one hunter grabs 1-2 whirlwinders and kites them. (Void room = big playground / Al'ar room = ramps)
Initial pulls of that mobs went so far that I killed my mob before raid wiped on rest Got /gchat jokes how raid is going to wait 20 minutes outside or go pvp while hunters go and clear the trash. Its fun to be hunter.
And there is this... VLC (guild) thing.
AllyX: "zomg, vlc member. Gank!"
Happens all the time, you can't do daily quests without some incident. Witch is perfectly cool for me I got scatter
I might be missing something here, but I don't quite understand why some people are saying haste is only good for BM.
From what I understand haste is one of the larger benefits of the BM spec (ignoring FI, TBW and pet damage for the purpose of this discussion). More shots in shorter time period should result in more damage.
The primary reason for the 1:1 shot cycle BM hunters use is to effectively accommodate their attack speed without clobbering auto-shots (generally around 2.0).
The primary reason for Surv and MM hunters using a 1:1.5 cycles is because of their slower, non-hasted attack speed. 1:1 would result in sub-optimal output with an attack speed around 2.5.
From my understanding, the reason that SOME haste effects are detrimental are:
- For the BM hunter it can reduce attack speed below the 2.0 threshold and (correct me if I am wrong here) result in the inability to get an auto-shot off (dependant on whether or not haste effect speeds up cast time on specials).
- Surv/MM hunters with 1:1.5 cycles haste effects create a need to adjust cycle to match attack speed creating management issues.
Given those assumptions, why would a Surv/MM hunter not want a consistently hasted cycle (1:1) where they are firing more shots? I can understand not wanting to constantly adjust for a procing haste effect, but consistent haste seems beneficial to any build as long as they can match a shot cycle to their attack speed.
From what I understand haste is one of the larger benefits of the BM spec (ignoring FI, TBW and pet damage for the purpose of this discussion). More shots in shorter time period should result in more damage.
The primary reason for the 1:1 shot cycle BM hunters use is to effectively accommodate their attack speed without clobbering auto-shots (generally around 2.0).
The primary reason for Surv and MM hunters using a 1:1.5 cycles is because of their slower, non-hasted attack speed. 1:1 would result in sub-optimal output with an attack speed around 2.5.
From my understanding, the reason that SOME haste effects are detrimental are:
- For the BM hunter it can reduce attack speed below the 2.0 threshold and (correct me if I am wrong here) result in the inability to get an auto-shot off (dependant on whether or not haste effect speeds up cast time on specials).
- Surv/MM hunters with 1:1.5 cycles haste effects create a need to adjust cycle to match attack speed creating management issues.
Given those assumptions, why would a Surv/MM hunter not want a consistently hasted cycle (1:1) where they are firing more shots? I can understand not wanting to constantly adjust for a procing haste effect, but consistent haste seems beneficial to any build as long as they can match a shot cycle to their attack speed.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
The statement that haste only affects helps only BM is IMO false. I have done nothing but better dps ever since I built my SV spec based on haste type affects: abacus, IAOTH, rapid fire, Drums etc. At least 100 DPS more on the fights I have been tracking. You obviously need to be smart on using them (unless they are passive like dragonspine) but they are definite DPS increases for SV and MM builds. I am not gonna waver on that statement. Now of course there might be a situation where a haste item vs a non haste item is not the advantage. Take the crystalwave cape over some cape with tons of ag and ap. I am sure those situations exist. But by and by haste is our best stat when used in a correctly weaved rotation.
T
T
Last edited by tict : 08/01/07 at 12:03 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Sapa
@Kaber
Just curious, what raid buffs did you use for calculations? If any? |
I'll go over the numbers again and plug things back in to the spread sheet to see what, if anything, I may have missed. My survival sets were done with a latency of 300 ms, but normally I'm down under 200ms. I think 100-200 seems to be fairy average, so I will give it another run at 200ms.
Something I want to make a bit more clear for other people: for survival to haste up you begin giving up large amounts of agility. Personally, I don't find that worth doing since the point of survival is buffing the DPS of everyone else, rather than yourself. Plus, as Sapa's numbers indicate, hasting would actually reduce your DPS at the 200ms mark over a standard 1.5 shot rotation with max agility. Its a lose-lose for survival in my opinion. Now to find the MM thread to begin remodeling the haste sets.
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Originally Posted by Ascoline
@ Kaber
Do not underestimate the trophy. Even for me as Surv it has a proc chance of some 1.3 ppm. The damage you gain by the haste is far superior than with hourglass for example. Also, it helps to to improve the uptime of EW. Usually, with trophy equipped, I equal the dmg of our BM hunter. With hourglass equiped my colleague gets the lead with some 50 DPS or so ahead of me. I only use a auto/steady macro for the rotation. KC, multi and arcance I usually weave in according to cooldowns, so changing the rotation is not really a problem after some time to praxis. |
Last edited by Kaber : 08/01/07 at 12:38 PM.
Why is it lose lose? Most of the T6 items (gloves being the exception imo) and many of the non-set BT/Hyjal items have the maximum agility for a given slot in the game (except those stupid Hyjal boots, wtf is up with those being worse than Vashj/Astromancer boots?). If your BM/MM hunters benefit so much from the haste items then all the easier to deck out your SV hunter in agi items
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Cranch
which you concluded by looking at only survival builds, as you have posted, and where you showed higher dps for a non-hasted build.
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MM hasted did lower DPS than MM unhasted.
BM hasted did higher DPS than BM unhasted.
MM did higher DPS than BM until BM was hasted.
So, as I said before - haste is a BM stat. Once cheeky gets the Dragonspine trophy modeled, it might change things up, I really couldn't say. But with every gear set I tried the above statements are true.
I think we need to take this to a MM thread, or maybe start a new one on haste, I dont know. But I will remodel the BM vs MM hasting and see what I come up with.
I think a large part of the issue is the amount of damage Multi-Shot does for MM. You can weave it in place of a steady shot when its up, but it seems like there is just something about that 1.5 rotation for MM.
@ Miruman
The reason BM is doing so much more damage at the same haste level is because of the pet. It gains 20% haste, while the MM pet does not, which increases the up-time of a number of the pet's abilities further boosting DPS. It makes sense for BM to scale up better with haste at a 1:1 shot ratio since they already out DPS MM and Survival if they were to use a 1:1 rotation in the same gear.
Last edited by Kaber : 08/01/07 at 12:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
@ Miruman
The reason BM is doing so much more damage at the same haste level is because of the pet. It gains 20% haste, while the MM pet does not, which increases the up-time of a number of the pet's abilities further boosting DPS. It makes sense for BM to scale up better with haste at a 1:1 shot ratio since they already out DPS MM and Survival if they were to use a 1:1 rotation in the same gear. |
Theoretically, any hunter should be able to benefit from haste as long as they are not sacrificing a more valuable stat to get it or reducing their attack speed to a point at which they cannot at least do an Auto/Special shot combo.
I did however model this out on Cheeky's spreadsheet with identical gear, just comparing a 2.4 speed bow (2.0 after quiver) with same DPS to my 2.9, using Max Special rotations for each and the slower bow with the 1:1.5 was coming out on top by about 7%. So, I guess I am wrong.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
If you look at the numbers I posted, 15/43/3 out DPSes BM.
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Firstly I'd like to say you made some rather weird choices in your BM spec and lost a small amout of damage by doing so, which might be what led to your conclusion. Be it as it may, I also modeled an endgame gear hunter in Cheekys spreadsheet and I cant find any kind of combination where an MM would outdamage a BM. (only if you skip damage multiplier talents of course).
Endgame items are easily named, its mostly the 4 regular haste items (gloves/bracers/ring/belt) as not everyone can get the shoulders and the haste cape sucks.
Choose one of the 3.0 speed weapons and fill the rest with obvious items.
On paper it really gets close, I have to give you that, but on a serious note, you wont be able to keep up anything else besides a 1:1 rotation even as an MM if you go below 2.2 speed in a stable way. Whoever claims he can shall post a WWS.
And accepting the fact that you will have to go for 1:1 as an MM with 4 or more haste items widens the gap by a big margin again in favour of a BM.
I was thinking about haste today.
If you order shots according to how much damage they do you get:
Auto < Steady <= Arcane < Multi.
A typical 1:1.5 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies, 1 Other. These 5 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.5 is a typical x.
A typical 1:1 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies. These 4 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.0 is a typical x.
Both rotations have the same rate of fire (1 shot per second), the difference is a 1:1.5 rotation has a higher average shot damage and a higher special per second rate of fire. Then again, if you go with a priority queue for the 1:1 rotation these differences mostly go away (average shot damage will still be slightly lower as a higher percentage of your shots are auto shot).
So if you could take a hunter with no talents and give his gear enough free haste to take his weapon speed from 2.5 to 2.0, what do you get?
-You get the same rate of fire (1 shot per second).
-You get lower mana usage (2 specials per 4 seconds vs 3 specials per 5).
-You get lower average shot damage (more of your shots are autos).
-You get a simpler rotation.
So what does the same rate of fire and lower average damage mean?! Lower DPS.
If you order shots according to how much damage they do you get:
Auto < Steady <= Arcane < Multi.
A typical 1:1.5 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies, 1 Other. These 5 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.5 is a typical x.
A typical 1:1 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies. These 4 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.0 is a typical x.
Both rotations have the same rate of fire (1 shot per second), the difference is a 1:1.5 rotation has a higher average shot damage and a higher special per second rate of fire. Then again, if you go with a priority queue for the 1:1 rotation these differences mostly go away (average shot damage will still be slightly lower as a higher percentage of your shots are auto shot).
So if you could take a hunter with no talents and give his gear enough free haste to take his weapon speed from 2.5 to 2.0, what do you get?
-You get the same rate of fire (1 shot per second).
-You get lower mana usage (2 specials per 4 seconds vs 3 specials per 5).
-You get lower average shot damage (more of your shots are autos).
-You get a simpler rotation.
So what does the same rate of fire and lower average damage mean?! Lower DPS.
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Originally Posted by Breakerone
I'm sorry if I missed something, but I dont seem to be able to get the same result. I went back through all your posts cause I just started reading this thread and had a look at the specs you used.
Firstly I'd like to say you made some rather weird choices in your BM spec and lost a small amout of damage by doing so, which might be what led to your conclusion. Be it as it may, I also modeled an endgame gear hunter in Cheekys spreadsheet and I cant find any kind of combination where an MM would outdamage a BM. (only if you skip damage multiplier talents of course). Endgame items are easily named, its mostly the 4 regular haste items (gloves/bracers/ring/belt) as not everyone can get the shoulders and the haste cape sucks. Choose one of the 3.0 speed weapons and fill the rest with obvious items. On paper it really gets close, I have to give you that, but on a serious note, you wont be able to keep up anything else besides a 1:1 rotation even as an MM if you go below 2.2 speed in a stable way. Whoever claims he can shall post a WWS. And accepting the fact that you will have to go for 1:1 as an MM with 4 or more haste items widens the gap by a big margin again in favour of a BM. |
As for the rest of your post, I'm 99% sure you just agreed with me that in hasted gear BM > MM.
For the 2 MM specs I posted, the one without AotH in non-hasted gear using a 1.5 rotation out DPSes the unhasted BM spec (rather than using end-game gear, try it in your current gear since in the end-game hasted BM pretty much out DPSes everything). What you need to keep in mind are the gear choices you make help determine what is going on, especially which ranged weapon and its speed.
I dont see why you chose a 3.0s ranged weapon, by the way, as the Serpent Spine bow is 2.9s (bows of that speed are the optimum for damage at a 1.5 special rotation, 3.0, 2.8, and anything else does much lower damage for a MM/Survival build). That is partially why the Sunfury bow out damages the Gladiator one for MM/Surv despite having 6 DPS less on the weapon itself.
A big part of the issue here I believe is the choice you made for the bow. When it comes to bows I have always found Bow Speed > Bow DPS > Bow Stats when it comes to determining the actual damage you will do for your spec. Now, we are fairly off topic with this MM vs BM stuff, so my next reply will be a link to a new thread I post on haste.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
So what does the same rate of fire and lower average damage mean?! Lower DPS.
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Has anyone ever tested a 1:1.5 rotation w/ delays as BM to see if it can beat the 1:1 rotation for dps?
I think I agree that a haste thread should be started and this discussion moved there btw This is the SURVIVAL thread after all
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
-You get the same rate of fire (1 shot per second).
-You get lower mana usage (2 specials per 4 seconds vs 3 specials per 5). -You get lower average shot damage (more of your shots are autos). -You get a simpler rotation. So what does the same rate of fire and lower average damage mean?! Lower DPS. |
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Correct, but I would argue the point of the haste items in-game aren't to get you down to a 1:1 rotation, but to tighten up your 1:1.5 rotation. I'd be willing to bet the optimal DPS for any in-game haste-item-wearing MM/SV hunter will be the result of a 1:1.5 rotation which expects to delay autos on any of the steady-special phases. At what speed does 1:1 priority cycle beat out 1:1.5 rotation w/ delays? Is it even ever?
Has anyone ever tested a 1:1.5 rotation w/ delays as BM to see if it can beat the 1:1 rotation for dps? I think I agree that a haste thread should be started and this discussion moved there btw This is the SURVIVAL thread after all |
(this is kinda on the topic of survival with the 1.5 rotation so ummm... this shall be my last post in this thread about haste. i hope.)
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Originally Posted by Kaber
I dont see why you chose a 3.0s ranged weapon, by the way, as the Serpent Spine bow is 2.9s
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Sorry if this thread got a little derailed. I was just interested in hearing what people had to say about haste being viable for Surv specced hunters.
I think it's been concluded:
- In terms of EW and TotH uptime/return: Yes
- In terms of optimal shot cycle for maximum dps: No
Next question, do you think the uptime of Master Tactitian justifies the point expenditure or are those 5 points better used in the MM tree?
I think it's been concluded:
- In terms of EW and TotH uptime/return: Yes
- In terms of optimal shot cycle for maximum dps: No
Next question, do you think the uptime of Master Tactitian justifies the point expenditure or are those 5 points better used in the MM tree?
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Originally Posted by Kaber
You can actually see this by changing your ranged slot. For some reason, despite the actual DPS of the items, 2.9s weapons out damage pretty much everything else according to cheeky's spread sheet when a 1.5 shot rotation is involved, so I dont know that it is really possible to successfully tighten your 1.5 rotation because it would likely lead to a large amount of clipping. It might changed based on where you set your latency, so keep that in mind as well.
(this is kinda on the topic of survival with the 1.5 rotation so ummm... this shall be my last post in this thread about haste. i hope.) |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi guys, while the haste debate is interesting I think your discussion stopped having relevance to Surv or at least you are not linking it to survival. As such it has become yet another BM/MM debate. Would you mind terribly taking into the haste thread kaber posted.
Last edited by Tazrach : 08/02/07 at 9:54 AM.
Stop signing your posts. We can see who you are via your profile.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I've been following this thread closely and have learned a lot and decided to try the 1:1.5 rotation without haste effects
For whats its worth - 2 WWS logs, one of gruuls using the 5/20/36 with improved hawk, DST, & Haste on gloves...switching between 1:1.5 rotation and going to a steady/auto spam when haste effects were stacked.
The Other Gruul i'm using 1.1.5 rotation the whole fight with 0/24/37 spec, no haste on gloves and DST replaced by the hourglass.
The key differences buff wise was in the 24/37 fight i got leader of the pack buff and gave my scorpid an AP buff at the beginning via Bloodlust Brooch. This resulted the scorpid doing 44 more dps than the first fight. In the 5/20/36 fight I had a shadow priest and BM Hunter.
974 dps
Gruul using 5/20/36 spec, IAoTH, Haste on Gloves, & DST (Group Buffs = FI & Shadow Priest)
Wow Web Stats
1197
Gruul using 0/24/37 spec with 1:1.5 rotation (Group Buffs = LotP, plus we had a Hemo rogue in the raid)
Wow Web Stats
Some difference is the scorpid and the buffs, but I still believe unhasted 1:1.5 rotation will win out, the only question now for survival is to use the 0/20/41 spec or the 0/24/37, my biggest problem with 0/20/41 is that you either have to do 2/3 ToTH or 2/3 EW.
- Vas
For whats its worth - 2 WWS logs, one of gruuls using the 5/20/36 with improved hawk, DST, & Haste on gloves...switching between 1:1.5 rotation and going to a steady/auto spam when haste effects were stacked.
The Other Gruul i'm using 1.1.5 rotation the whole fight with 0/24/37 spec, no haste on gloves and DST replaced by the hourglass.
The key differences buff wise was in the 24/37 fight i got leader of the pack buff and gave my scorpid an AP buff at the beginning via Bloodlust Brooch. This resulted the scorpid doing 44 more dps than the first fight. In the 5/20/36 fight I had a shadow priest and BM Hunter.
974 dps
Gruul using 5/20/36 spec, IAoTH, Haste on Gloves, & DST (Group Buffs = FI & Shadow Priest)
Wow Web Stats
1197
Gruul using 0/24/37 spec with 1:1.5 rotation (Group Buffs = LotP, plus we had a Hemo rogue in the raid)
Wow Web Stats
Some difference is the scorpid and the buffs, but I still believe unhasted 1:1.5 rotation will win out, the only question now for survival is to use the 0/20/41 spec or the 0/24/37, my biggest problem with 0/20/41 is that you either have to do 2/3 ToTH or 2/3 EW.
- Vas
Last edited by Vasilii : 08/02/07 at 11:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
the only question now for survival is to use the 0/20/41 spec or the 0/24/37, my biggest problem with 0/20/41 is that you either have to do 2/3 ToTH or 2/3 EW.
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I've actually been debating switching from my current 0/24/37: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to putting some points into MT (which originally seemed a bit worthless, but I am beginning to think I misjudged).
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Originally Posted by miruman
Mind linking the specific builds (I realize that much of it can be assumed)?
I've actually been debating switching from my current 0/24/37: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to putting some points into MT (which originally seemed a bit worthless, but I am beginning to think I misjudged). |
my 0/24/37 (very similar to yours) -->
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The extra rapid fires from Readiness are more of a dps boost than MT IMO, if you time it right can't you get 5 rapid fies in one boss fight? once you are hitting 33% unbuffed crit you really start seeing diminishing returns on stacking more of it... especially considering you usually will get a LotP.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I've been following this thread closely and have learned a lot and decided to try the 1:1.5 rotation without haste effects
For whats its worth - 2 WWS logs, one of gruuls using the 5/20/36 with improved hawk, DST, & Haste on gloves...switching between 1:1.5 rotation and going to a steady/auto spam when haste effects were stacked. The Other Gruul i'm using 1.1.5 rotation the whole fight with 0/24/37 spec, no haste on gloves and DST replaced by the hourglass. The key differences buff wise was in the 24/37 fight i got leader of the pack buff and gave my scorpid an AP buff at the beginning via Bloodlust Brooch. This resulted the scorpid doing 44 more dps than the first fight. In the 5/20/36 fight I had a shadow priest and BM Hunter. 974 dps Gruul using 5/20/36 spec, IAoTH, Haste on Gloves, & DST (Group Buffs = FI & Shadow Priest) Wow Web Stats 1197 Gruul using 0/24/37 spec with 1:1.5 rotation (Group Buffs = LotP, plus we had a Hemo rogue in the raid) Wow Web Stats Some difference is the scorpid and the buffs, but I still believe unhasted 1:1.5 rotation will win out, the only question now for survival is to use the 0/20/41 spec or the 0/24/37, my biggest problem with 0/20/41 is that you either have to do 2/3 ToTH or 2/3 EW. - Vas |
So with all other buffs canceling out, save for the obvious benefits of having a shadowpriest for your mana pool, the rogue boosted your damage by somewhere in the range of 6-7% (unless I missed something and Hemo only applies to auto shots).
I believe this shows that the difference in raid buffs available to you in no way, shape, or form could have caused a 20% DPS difference. Between the scorpid's higher damage and the Hemo rogue, you should have seen a 9-10% boost in DPS at the very most. This supports the theory that haste is a poor choice for Survival hunters.
Thanks for posting the logs.
I have been browsing through this thread, but admittedly I have skipped over some parts in the middle. After checking out the links for the 0/24/37 build posted above, I have just a few questions about a 0/20/41 build I've been trying to plan out for a while.
I guess my question would be for a crit rate that is (unbuffed) < 30%, is MT worth it? I really like the readiness skill, it seems to add to my overall usefullness in PvE raids when you can open with an Aimed Shot MD, rapid fire, readiness, MD, rapid fire right off the bat. I'm just curious as to the cutoff point to where the 5 points in MT are no longer worth it and I should think about dropping readiness for improved DPS.
On that note, assuming that I benefit more from MT, I have been trying to find a decent build that allows me to get Wyvern Sting, 3/3 EW and at least 2/3 TotH (I currently only have 1/3). Just wondering if any of you can help me out. Maybe some of you have some sample build of this spec kicking around that I have been unable to find for some reason.
Thanks for all your help in advance (and I appologize if this sounds like it belongs more on the WoW Hunter forums, but frankly you don't often get much help over there)
I guess my question would be for a crit rate that is (unbuffed) < 30%, is MT worth it? I really like the readiness skill, it seems to add to my overall usefullness in PvE raids when you can open with an Aimed Shot MD, rapid fire, readiness, MD, rapid fire right off the bat. I'm just curious as to the cutoff point to where the 5 points in MT are no longer worth it and I should think about dropping readiness for improved DPS.
On that note, assuming that I benefit more from MT, I have been trying to find a decent build that allows me to get Wyvern Sting, 3/3 EW and at least 2/3 TotH (I currently only have 1/3). Just wondering if any of you can help me out. Maybe some of you have some sample build of this spec kicking around that I have been unable to find for some reason.
Thanks for all your help in advance (and I appologize if this sounds like it belongs more on the WoW Hunter forums, but frankly you don't often get much help over there)
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Originally Posted by Dmok
I guess my question would be for a crit rate that is (unbuffed) < 30%, is MT worth it?
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Groggan
MT is arguably _never_ worth it. The only build I would really consider taking MT with is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, and that's just cause of how bad IAotH is w/o maxing it (and I don't care about scatter/wyvren).
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
With a 2.5s autoshot cycle and a 1:1.5 rotation you get a 1 shot a second frequency. The uptime would then be 1 - 0.94^8 = 39.04%, for a 3.9% average gain, for 5 talent points.
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2/5 - 4% crit boost (1.56% effective)
3/5 - 6% crit boost (2.34% effective)
4/5 - 8% crit boost (3.12% effective)
5/5 - 10% crit boost (3.9% effective)
If you look at it that way, it's really not too different from Killer Instincts, which is a staple to Survival builds. A bit less benefit for higher tier of points, but still, not bad IMO.
Last edited by miruman : 08/02/07 at 5:44 PM. Reason: Incorrect Calculations
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by miruman
I've been very skeptical of MT as well, as it seems like a very low return for that tier of talent points. However, when I trade Barrage and Wyvern Sting out of my existing build and put those 4pts into MT on Cheeky's sheet, I get a pretty decent gain. And yes I know WS does nothing for my DPS... so don't even bother to point that out.
In theory: With a 1:1.5 cycle we are firing a little less than 1 shot per second. With a 6% proc rate, it should proc once every 17 seconds or so. With the 8 second buff duration, we are looking at about 47% uptime. 1/5 - 2% crit boost (0.95% effective) 2/5 - 4% crit boost (1.88% effective) 3/5 - 6% crit boost (2.82% effective) 4/5 - 8% crit boost (3.76% effective) 5/5 - 10% crit boost (4.7% effective) If you look at it that way, it's really not too different from Killer Instincts, which is a staple to Survival builds. Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot and correct my calculations if I'm totally off... |
Last edited by Cheeky : 08/02/07 at 5:22 PM. Reason: math typo
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Originally Posted by miruman
I've been very skeptical of MT as well, as it seems like a very low return for that tier of talent points. However, when I trade Barrage and Wyvern Sting out of my existing build and put those 4pts into MT on Cheeky's sheet, I get a pretty decent gain. And yes I know WS does nothing for my DPS... so don't even bother to point that out.
In theory: With a 1:1.5 cycle we are firing a little less than 1 shot per second. With a 6% proc rate, it should proc once every 17 seconds or so. With the 8 second buff duration, we are looking at about 47% uptime. 1/5 - 2% crit boost (0.95% effective) 2/5 - 4% crit boost (1.88% effective) 3/5 - 6% crit boost (2.82% effective) 4/5 - 8% crit boost (3.76% effective) 5/5 - 10% crit boost (4.7% effective) If you look at it that way, it's really not too different from Killer Instincts, which is a staple to Survival builds. Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot and correct my calculations if I'm totally off... |
edit: never mind, I see Cheeky got to it before I could hit the post button.
Interesting reads, I speced a0/20/41 build (went 5 points in MT) for our first few weeks of TK/SSC, but found that I have been the only hunter showing up for raids, and we are currently a VERY caster heavy raid that my the AP Buff wouldnt give back the extra DPS I would be giving as BM.
Regardless of personal dps saying im sitting @ ~900agi raid buffed, what sorta dps would I give back to a raid if we had 5 non tank melee dps (rogues/war/shammy)
Regardless of personal dps saying im sitting @ ~900agi raid buffed, what sorta dps would I give back to a raid if we had 5 non tank melee dps (rogues/war/shammy)
First time member at this site...i've read alot of great as well as bad posts on this site but for the most part you guys are "elite" hunters.
My question regards speccs...I've seen some of the links you guys posted earlier and the discussions of buffing the raid members with EW or FI...as for my raid compositions there are always 1 rogue and one warrior dps for 25 men...very rare there will be 2 rogues 1 warrior and one feral dps...so as for the case where there's only 1 rogue and 1 warrior dps do you guys think that it's extremely viable for me to drop the three points in EW? i'd rather have those three points in barrage...so it'll be...
5/23/33...for bm tree the 5 points is for iaoth...MsM tree 23 points for imp barrage. and 33 points in survival for TotH.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
...is prolly better than describing it.
My question regards speccs...I've seen some of the links you guys posted earlier and the discussions of buffing the raid members with EW or FI...as for my raid compositions there are always 1 rogue and one warrior dps for 25 men...very rare there will be 2 rogues 1 warrior and one feral dps...so as for the case where there's only 1 rogue and 1 warrior dps do you guys think that it's extremely viable for me to drop the three points in EW? i'd rather have those three points in barrage...so it'll be...
5/23/33...for bm tree the 5 points is for iaoth...MsM tree 23 points for imp barrage. and 33 points in survival for TotH.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
...is prolly better than describing it.
Can someone explain to me what the 1:1.5 rotation is?
1:1 is 1 auto, 1 special, right?
So 1:1.5 is 1 auto, 1 and half special? how does that work?
Or is it 1 auto, 1 steady + multi/arcne, then wouldn't that be 1:2?
1:1 is 1 auto, 1 special, right?
So 1:1.5 is 1 auto, 1 and half special? how does that work?
Or is it 1 auto, 1 steady + multi/arcne, then wouldn't that be 1:2?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
This thread points towards a simple conclusion -
For MM / SV, significant haste is not a +damage stat - it is a mana efficiency stat.
Where a 1:1.5 rotation is an incredible mana burn, something that requires (no, demands) a shadow priest and mana pots to sustain, 15% hasted 1:1 is around half the mana cost over time...
So in essence, the debate between 7/20/33 +1 (variants) and 0/20/40 +1 really comes down to mana sustainability, or more pointedly "do you have a shadow priest, or not?" Going 1:1 while IAOTH is procced is somewhat better mana efficiency than 2/3 ToTH (at Kara/Gruul gearing levels). This also points to the DSP being more of a warped MP5 trinket for MM/SV in a raid DPS situation. 5/20/36 would be the most "mana efficient" EW spec we have, following this logic to its conclusion.
For Female Tauren,
1:1 is exactly what you said - auto-steady
1:1.5 might be best expressed as this -
auto-steady-special
auto-steady
(repeat)
The delimiter in the 1:1.5 rotation (and why it is not a 1:2 rotation) is the GCD. You cannot sustain auto-steady-special indefinantly as the GCD will block your attempt to cast a steady shot immediately after the second auto has fired in the above listed example. You still have time to cast the steady before clipping the third auto shot, but not enough time to cast steady then fire another special.
For MM / SV, significant haste is not a +damage stat - it is a mana efficiency stat.
Where a 1:1.5 rotation is an incredible mana burn, something that requires (no, demands) a shadow priest and mana pots to sustain, 15% hasted 1:1 is around half the mana cost over time...
So in essence, the debate between 7/20/33 +1 (variants) and 0/20/40 +1 really comes down to mana sustainability, or more pointedly "do you have a shadow priest, or not?" Going 1:1 while IAOTH is procced is somewhat better mana efficiency than 2/3 ToTH (at Kara/Gruul gearing levels). This also points to the DSP being more of a warped MP5 trinket for MM/SV in a raid DPS situation. 5/20/36 would be the most "mana efficient" EW spec we have, following this logic to its conclusion.
For Female Tauren,
1:1 is exactly what you said - auto-steady
1:1.5 might be best expressed as this -
auto-steady-special
auto-steady
(repeat)
The delimiter in the 1:1.5 rotation (and why it is not a 1:2 rotation) is the GCD. You cannot sustain auto-steady-special indefinantly as the GCD will block your attempt to cast a steady shot immediately after the second auto has fired in the above listed example. You still have time to cast the steady before clipping the third auto shot, but not enough time to cast steady then fire another special.
Last edited by Jaimaster : 08/06/07 at 2:08 AM.
1:1.5 is a steady/auto rotation with an arcane or multi thrown in after every other steady. So steady->arcane->auto->steady->auto, thats 2 auto/3 special. 2/3=1/1.5
Edit: Jaimaster beat me to it.
Edit: Jaimaster beat me to it.
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Originally Posted by Female Tauren
Can someone explain to me what the 1:1.5 rotation is?
1:1 is 1 auto, 1 special, right? So 1:1.5 is 1 auto, 1 and half special? how does that work? Or is it 1 auto, 1 steady + multi/arcne, then wouldn't that be 1:2? |
Auto Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Multi-Shot
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Auto Shot
...
Basically 1 special in-between each Auto Shot.
Example 1:1.5 rotation
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Multi-Shot
Auto Shot
Basically, trying to fit e.g. Steady + 1 instant cast between 2 Auto Shots, then 1 special before the next. Trying to fit in 2 specials between each Auto Shot wouldn't be possible due to global cooldown forcing delaying Auto Shots. The 1:1.5 rotation would probably make more sense to some if it were named the 2:3 rotation.
EDIT: Curse you, Jaimaster!
Totally forgot about the GCD there, thanks all.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Long time reader, first time poster...
I'm the token survival hunter in my guild. My DPS is lower than the BM hunters in the guild. I'm roughly 700-800 depending, whereas the others can do up to 1K
No complaints, I figure the AP others gain from me makes up for my lower DPS, and survival is fun.
What i would like to know, has anyone done figures with a raid buffed survival hunter with tsunami, and hourglass - and a high crit rate. With a LotP and other standard buffs, I am roughly 48-50% crit. Would love to hear what feedback i can get on this... just trying to maximise my raid dps.
currently im running hourglass with dragonspine.... Proc rate on DST is crazy according to wws, but im sure with high crit, the tsunami is going to go off.
EDIT. Grammar fixed. Posted in wrong section.
I'm the token survival hunter in my guild. My DPS is lower than the BM hunters in the guild. I'm roughly 700-800 depending, whereas the others can do up to 1K
No complaints, I figure the AP others gain from me makes up for my lower DPS, and survival is fun.
What i would like to know, has anyone done figures with a raid buffed survival hunter with tsunami, and hourglass - and a high crit rate. With a LotP and other standard buffs, I am roughly 48-50% crit. Would love to hear what feedback i can get on this... just trying to maximise my raid dps.
currently im running hourglass with dragonspine.... Proc rate on DST is crazy according to wws, but im sure with high crit, the tsunami is going to go off.
EDIT. Grammar fixed. Posted in wrong section.
Last edited by Muzelf : 08/06/07 at 11:35 PM.
What rotation do you guys use as survival? I've been using the auto + steady + KC rotation, wich i know is very effective for BM hunters, but i didn't find anything about a survival rotation.
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Originally Posted by Muzelf
What i would like to know, has anyone done figures with a raid buffed survival hunter with tsunami, and hourglass - and a high crit rate.
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Tsunami Talisman has a 45s internal cooldown. Later in the thread there is some discussion about Tsunami Talisman and Hourglass of the Unraveller that suggests that they share the internal cooldown, meaning that they can both proc at the same time, but if only one procs, it will be 45s before either can proc again. Simply put only one can proc except on those rare occasions that they both proc at the same time. So without that information it seems like those two trinkets stacked would be very nice, but it appears that in practice that's not quite the case.
I'm using Tsunami and Bladefist's Breadth for my crit trinkets so that one can proc when the internal cooldown is up and I can activate the other when able, and not run into that problem.
Nervouso,
the 1:1.5 rotation is standard for SV/MM. 1 auto shot per 1.5 special shots, ergo -
Auto-steady-special
auto steady
(repeat)
Where "special" is Multishot, Arcane Shot, or any other GCD action.
While it is possible to macro such a rotation, I have a quite biased dislike of /castrotation in general, so I wont give you pointers. Perhaps someone else might. Alternatively, you could download Quartz (or Z-Hunter, or Littletrouble), configure the swing timer and manual time your shots
the 1:1.5 rotation is standard for SV/MM. 1 auto shot per 1.5 special shots, ergo -
Auto-steady-special
auto steady
(repeat)
Where "special" is Multishot, Arcane Shot, or any other GCD action.
While it is possible to macro such a rotation, I have a quite biased dislike of /castrotation in general, so I wont give you pointers. Perhaps someone else might. Alternatively, you could download Quartz (or Z-Hunter, or Littletrouble), configure the swing timer and manual time your shots
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Originally Posted by Jaimaster
So in essence, the debate between 7/20/33 +1 (variants) and 0/20/40 +1 really comes down to mana sustainability, or more pointedly "do you have a shadow priest, or not?" Going 1:1 while IAOTH is procced is somewhat better mana efficiency than 2/3 ToTH (at Kara/Gruul gearing levels). This also points to the DSP being more of a warped MP5 trinket for MM/SV in a raid DPS situation. 5/20/36 would be the most "mana efficient" EW spec we have, following this logic to its conclusion.
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I'm currently 0/24/37 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for those who want to see it and want something faster than armoury) with barrel-blade longrifle and do end up using a lot of mana pots, or end up trying to find chances to feign and drink during encounters where it won't effect my DPS/contribution (Adds cleared before Lurker repops, holding DPS during Hydross transition etc). While it's pretty clear that iAoTH for SV reduces your mana burn rate when it procs - does this mean for mana's sake, it could be desirable to stack up as many haste procs as possible? (Not at once)
Rapid fire, iAoTH procs, DSP, Abacus, Beserking, Haste pots (!). There are certainly enough options out there, that you could keep a haste effect running a lot of the time? 38% of the time just from the controllable effects listed above. Procs will stack with other effects often of course, but with reduced cast time on steady, maintaining 1:1 with no clipping is a lot less of an issue?
It's EU maintenance time, so I might be horribly wrong here, or does seem like a route that could be an interesting way to use the SV spec?
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Originally Posted by kultheel
One place following this logic could go is trinket selection. Specifically does the mana efficency make Abacus of Violent Odds worth considering over Hourglass of the Unraveller or Bloodlust Brooch (my two current trinkets)?
I'm currently 0/24/37 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for those who want to see it and want something faster than armoury) with barrel-blade longrifle and do end up using a lot of mana pots, or end up trying to find chances to feign and drink during encounters where it won't effect my DPS/contribution (Adds cleared before Lurker repops, holding DPS during Hydross transition etc). While it's pretty clear that iAoTH for SV reduces your mana burn rate when it procs - does this mean for mana's sake, it could be desirable to stack up as many haste procs as possible? (Not at once) Rapid fire, iAoTH procs, DSP, Abacus, Beserking, Haste pots (!). There are certainly enough options out there, that you could keep a haste effect running a lot of the time? 38% of the time just from the controllable effects listed above. Procs will stack with other effects often of course, but with reduced cast time on steady, maintaining 1:1 with no clipping is a lot less of an issue? It's EU maintenance time, so I might be horribly wrong here, or does seem like a route that could be an interesting way to use the SV spec? |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Jaimaster
Nervouso,
the 1:1.5 rotation is standard for SV/MM. 1 auto shot per 1.5 special shots, ergo - Auto-steady-special auto steady (repeat) Where "special" is Multishot, Arcane Shot, or any other GCD action. While it is possible to macro such a rotation, I have a quite biased dislike of /castrotation in general, so I wont give you pointers. Perhaps someone else might. Alternatively, you could download Quartz (or Z-Hunter, or Littletrouble), configure the swing timer and manual time your shots |
Thanks a lot for the help.
Btw, i made this macros:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
I'm not good at macros, so idk if it's good or not. lol
It seems they are working very well, since the arcane shot is always up when i try to cast it.
Btw, i have another question. What's the hit cap for hunters to don't miss lvl 73 targets?
Last edited by Nervouso : 08/08/07 at 2:55 PM.
First your macro
is bad, because of wrong order of spells auto gets delayed by second steady. Second macro may be ok.
I am using just
for myself and weave auto or multi by hand if and when needed.
Place to weave arcane/multi is after steady, before auto. Auto then gets shot whole GCD is cooling off.
| Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot |
I am using just
| /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot |
Place to weave arcane/multi is after steady, before auto. Auto then gets shot whole GCD is cooling off.
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Originally Posted by Nervouso
And no KC in the rotation?
Thanks a lot for the help. Btw, i made this macros: #showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot #showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot |
When I have done a simple BM macro such as:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot
It's worked fine...
But things like this don't work so well:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
The above doesn't seem to complete under many circumstances. Maybe because I am not including a reset value. For BM, it seems very simple to make a spammable 1:1 macro with KC included. For 1:1.5 Surv cycles...
Auto/Steady/Multi
Auto/Steady
Auto/Steady/Arcane
Auto/Steady
Manually seems to be the best bet. If anyone has a foolproof macro for this, I'd love to hear about it.
I have decided on giving survival a try, but want a build that will still be viable in PVP.
This is what I've come up with so far:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Any suggestions from someone more experienced with the spec?
This is what I've come up with so far:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Any suggestions from someone more experienced with the spec?
I would probably go with
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
You lose some personal DPS and some HP but Improved Stings is just so good in PvP it is hard to run without.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
You lose some personal DPS and some HP but Improved Stings is just so good in PvP it is hard to run without.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
The problem with doing that is it reduces your over-all DPS. Personally I prefer to avoid screwing with 1:1.5 rotations by using hastes. Now with the Dragonspine trophy, iAotH, and some passive haste with that fast gun, I would say take the abacus and go at it with a full-time 1:1 rotation.
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Why would you be screwing with a 1:1.5 rotation using hastes? You can still fire the auto,steady,special,auto part of the shot cycle under haste although you won't get much of a dps increase from it - the auto,special,auto part of the cycle will still recieve the full haste benefit so I would have thougt you should still see an overall increase in dps.
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Originally Posted by rudedog
Why would you be screwing with a 1:1.5 rotation using hastes? You can still fire the auto,steady,special,auto part of the shot cycle under haste although you won't get much of a dps increase from it - the auto,special,auto part of the cycle will still recieve the full haste benefit so I would have thougt you should still see an overall increase in dps.
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Originally Posted by miruman
Under haste effects, your shot time is sped up making it impossible (in the majority of cases) to fit 2 specials in between autos. The same reason fully hasted BM hunters use a 1:1 cycle. There are quite a few posts in the Hunter Haste Rating Analysis thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h..._game_builds/) that can explain this better than I can.
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Think of it this way, by dropping down to a 1:1 rotation you are delaying your special attacks, which for a SV/MM hunter should do more damage per shot than your auto by a significant amount (particularly multi if you have barrage).
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Damn it, I'm going to have to install Excel and crunch the numbers in Cheeky's spreadsheet to quell this argument once and for all, aren't I? There is a likely chance that purposefully delaying auto-shots and sticking with a 1:1.5 rotation even when hasted will better serve a properly geared MM/SV hunter. If the damage values of steady/arcane/multi shots are sufficiently higher than that of auto shot then a 1:1.5 rotation _should_ do more damage even with delayed autos.
Think of it this way, by dropping down to a 1:1 rotation you are delaying your special attacks, which for a SV/MM hunter should do more damage per shot than your auto by a significant amount (particularly multi if you have barrage). |
Unless you have Barrage, the ratios between specials vs. auto damage are basically identical when comparing a 41/20/0 BM build and pretty standard Surv build (w/o 3/3 Barrage). Granted I didn't go to the trouble of changing my gear out. But spec-wise, Barrage is the only instance in which the above is true for Survival and not everyone takes that talent.
So, if sticking to a 1:1.5 rotation under haste is better, would the same logic also say that it is inefficient for BM hunters to use a 1:1 rotation?
I'm pretty sure the lost autoshot damage will not be worth it. Regardless, I am interested in seeing what the end result is of a hasted 1:1.5 with clobbered autos.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
I would probably go with
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft You lose some personal DPS and some HP but Improved Stings is just so good in PvP it is hard to run without. |
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Originally Posted by Darklighter
That's the same build I linked.
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Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
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Are you saying there is a larger delta between the damage of autos and specials for a SV hunter than there is for a BM hunter? Unless you have Barrage, the ratios between specials vs. auto damage are basically identical when comparing a 41/20/0 BM build and pretty standard Surv build (w/o 3/3 Barrage). Granted I didn't go to the trouble of changing my gear out. But spec-wise, Barrage is the only instance in which the above is true for Survival and not everyone takes that talent. So, if sticking to a 1:1.5 rotation under haste is better, would the same logic also say that it is inefficient for BM hunters to use a 1:1 rotation? I'm pretty sure the lost autoshot damage will not be worth it. Regardless, I am interested in seeing what the end result is of a hasted 1:1.5 with clobbered autos. |
Basically, you have two opportunity costs, one associated with dropping to a 1:1 rotation created by the delay of specials (not launching them as soon as possible) and one associated with staying at a 1:1.5 rotation created by the delay of auto-shots on the steady-special-auto portions of the rotation. If the opportunity cost of the first is more than that of the second then a 1:1.5 rotation would remain better. Another way to think of it is that if the damage lost during the haste by not using each special as soon as they are up is more than the damage you lose by causing the autos to not fire as soon as possible, then 1:1.5 is better.
It would be a pretty easy comparison to make just by filing out the spreadsheet twice with two manual shot rotations for the hasted case, I just haven't done it yet cause I am lazy and don't really want to install excel :P
I guess I'll take the time to track down my excel cd and install it over the weekend. And yes, I fully expect there to be in-game gearing situations where remaining in a 1:1.5 rotation will beat out a 1:1 rotation (probably associated mainly with adjusted-weapon-speeds and just how much haste is being applied on the haste-procs).
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Originally Posted by Groggan
I'm saying there could be. I also left out the part of the issue regarding how much of the auto shot you lose by delaying it compared to how much of the special you lose by delaying it.
Basically, you have two opportunity costs, one associated with dropping to a 1:1 rotation created by the delay of specials (not launching them as soon as possible) and one associated with staying at a 1:1.5 rotation created by the delay of auto-shots on the steady-special-auto portions of the rotation. If the opportunity cost of the first is more than that of the second then a 1:1.5 rotation would remain better. Another way to think of it is that if the damage lost during the haste by not using each special as soon as they are up is more than the damage you lose by causing the autos to not fire as soon as possible, then 1:1.5 is better. |
Clearly you don't want to drop to a 1:1 if you are around 2.5 hasted, but below 2.0 I am pretty sure a 1:1 is the most shots you can squeeze in without clobbering.
Correct me if I am wrong, but clobbering an auto-shot doesn't "delay" it but rather you lose that individual shot altogether until the next cycle...
It might be possible to squeeze in more damage from specials while clipping autos, but I would think that Lactose must have evaluated that quite some time ago with the old aimed shot cycles.
Note: We keep getting back on the subject of haste rates and shot cycles... This probably belongs in the Haste thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h...d_game_builds/
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Originally Posted by miruman
It might be possible to squeeze in more damage from specials while clipping autos, but I would think that Lactose must have evaluated that quite some time ago with the old aimed shot cycles.
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For some weapons / rotations, the better option used to be clipping the Auto Shot, firing the special as soon as possible instead. For other setups, this was suboptimal.
I used to brute-force it in my spreadsheet, the calculations were easy enough for me to simply calculate both permutations, then compare them and see which one had the highest DPS.
With all the changes our shot mechanics have seen since then, as well as more proc-based effects, etc, this isn't as easy to compare as it was back then.
I would reccommend using Cheeky's spreadsheet, and comparing the various options in that. It is, as far as I know, one of the most accurate measures of DPS based on gear, etc, we have.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by miruman
Are you saying there is a larger delta between the damage of autos and specials for a SV hunter than there is for a BM hunter?
Unless you have Barrage, the ratios between specials vs. auto damage are basically identical when comparing a 41/20/0 BM build and pretty standard Surv build (w/o 3/3 Barrage). Granted I didn't go to the trouble of changing my gear out. But spec-wise, Barrage is the only instance in which the above is true for Survival and not everyone takes that talent. So, if sticking to a 1:1.5 rotation under haste is better, would the same logic also say that it is inefficient for BM hunters to use a 1:1 rotation? I'm pretty sure the lost autoshot damage will not be worth it. Regardless, I am interested in seeing what the end result is of a hasted 1:1.5 with clobbered autos. |
In the short term, I would expect a 1:1.5 rotation to also increase an unhasted BM specs dps, perhaps not by a lot - at what point mana would become a limiting factor would depend entirely on the length of fight, group compositon, available consumeables and I suppose to a lesser extent, gear choices.
Last edited by rudedog : 08/10/07 at 7:37 PM.
Take this idea to the extreme:
If you have any slack in your rotation at all and your steady shot does at least as much damage as your auto, won't you gain dps by firing a steady shot if both multi/arcane are on cooldown? A true 2:1 rotation.
Auto, Special, Special, Auto - 4 shots every 3.5 seconds (2 global cools and 0.5s auto firing time). It seems this yields the highest possible shot per second numbers.
If you have any slack in your rotation at all and your steady shot does at least as much damage as your auto, won't you gain dps by firing a steady shot if both multi/arcane are on cooldown? A true 2:1 rotation.
Auto, Special, Special, Auto - 4 shots every 3.5 seconds (2 global cools and 0.5s auto firing time). It seems this yields the highest possible shot per second numbers.
Your rotation shows just 3 shots in 3.5 seconds
(rotation : auto - special - special )
(rotation : auto - special - special )
Thats a 1:1.5 rotation, not a 2:1 rotation, or am i missing something?
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
If you have any slack in your rotation at all and your steady shot does at least as much damage as your auto, won't you gain dps by firing a steady shot if both multi/arcane are on cooldown?
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Even if your Steady Shot does more damage than your Auto Shot, and if you have some dead time where you're just waiting, adding a Steady Shot there might still reduce your DPS.
With [Steady Shot damage] being higher than [Auto Shot damage], yes, you will increase your damage. With [Steady Shot cast time] being higher than [Auto Shot cast time & dead time], the time needed to deal this damage is also increased.
I.e. you might deal 200 damage instead of 150, but you might require 2.5 seconds to do so instead of 1.5, resulting in a lowered DPS.
In some cases, delaying your next Auto Shot would be optimal for highest DPS, in other cases not.
In addition, your shot rotation might suffer in the long term even with a short term gain - burst vs sustained.
Then there's also the issue with the mana intensity of such a setup, although it, in some cases, is a non-issue. Again, sustainability.
So, no, you won't automatically gain DPS by slotting in another special, even if it does more damage and you have some dead time in your rotation.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I specced
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
and I'm very successfull with it.
Keeping my old MM-Rotation with Multi rocks the E-peen AND the Specc pushed our Rogues far enough to shine as the spear of our dps. Followed by me on place 2 or 3 or, depending on encounter, by Warlocks and Mages.
The last time even I got exited about SV-Dps. Placed second at Lurker without pet (don't ask me why i didn't use it...was sleepy this time ^_^). SW_Stats pronounced 750 dps, WWS 992.
At the time, BM has the most promising talents to shine as DD, MM will loose due to lack of synergies and scaling.
Netherless, SV will overcome BM due to better scaling with equip and buffs. Not mentioning Raidsupport.
att, I'm at 2032 AP and 35% crit with AotH up. 692 agility.
There's much space and I'm looking forward to all the changings blizzard will bring down on us.
About rotations. How about this rotation? ^_^
Steady-auto-multi-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-....
4 Auto, 6 specials. Another version of 1:1,5 but max-Specials.
only wotrking with 5/5 imp. arcane.
10 Shots in 10 seconds without delaying autoshots with AS of ~2,5. Beat it
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
and I'm very successfull with it.
Keeping my old MM-Rotation with Multi rocks the E-peen AND the Specc pushed our Rogues far enough to shine as the spear of our dps. Followed by me on place 2 or 3 or, depending on encounter, by Warlocks and Mages.
The last time even I got exited about SV-Dps. Placed second at Lurker without pet (don't ask me why i didn't use it...was sleepy this time ^_^). SW_Stats pronounced 750 dps, WWS 992.
At the time, BM has the most promising talents to shine as DD, MM will loose due to lack of synergies and scaling.
Netherless, SV will overcome BM due to better scaling with equip and buffs. Not mentioning Raidsupport.
att, I'm at 2032 AP and 35% crit with AotH up. 692 agility.
There's much space and I'm looking forward to all the changings blizzard will bring down on us.
About rotations. How about this rotation? ^_^
Steady-auto-multi-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-....
4 Auto, 6 specials. Another version of 1:1,5 but max-Specials.
only wotrking with 5/5 imp. arcane.
10 Shots in 10 seconds without delaying autoshots with AS of ~2,5. Beat it
Last edited by Jintra : 08/11/07 at 1:48 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
Your rotation shows just 3 shots in 3.5 seconds
(rotation : auto - special - special ) |
Edit: Although, with SS and a 1s steady shot cast (and minimal latency) you get 3 shots in 3 seconds ...
Last edited by Glaurong : 08/11/07 at 3:09 PM.
Help me spec survival
I am currently bm, the dmg output is great, the playstyle is boring. I would like to spec survival and this is the current gear i have in my hands for use:
Head
[Steelspine Faceguard]
[Beast Lord Helm]
[Helm of Desolation]
[Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight]
Neck
[Saberclaw Talisman]
[Choker of Vile Intent]
Shoulders
[Demon Stalker Shoulderguards]
[Beastmaw Pauldrons]
[Beast Lord Mantle]
[Pauldrons of Desolation]
Back
[Blood Knight War Cloak]
[Farstrider Wildercloak]
Chest
[Shard Encrusted Breastplate]
[Scaled Breastplate of Carnage]
[Beast Lord Cuirass]
Wrist
[Stalker's War Bands]
Waist
[Girdle of the Prowler]
Leggings
[Rip-Flayer Leggings]
[Midnight Legguards]
[Beast Lord Leggings]
[Emerald-Scale Greaves]
[Scaled Greaves of Patience]
Hands
[Demon Stalker Gauntlets]
[Handguards of the Steady]
[Beast Lord Handguards]
[Gauntlets of Desolation]
Boots
[Fiend Slayer Boots]
[Ferocious Swift-Kickers]
[Rapscallion Boots]
[Greaves of Desolation]
Rings:
[Garona's Signet Ring]
[Ring of Arathi Warlords]
[Violet Signet of the Master Assassin]
[Lightwarden's Band]
Trinkets
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
[Bloodlust Brooch]
Weapons
[Sonic Spear]
[Axe of the Gronn Lords]
[Emerald Ripper]
[Guile of Khoraazi]
[Borak's Reminder]
[Crystalforged War Axe]
2x[Stellaris]
Bow
[Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]
What would you use from these and with what enchants/gems?
Since this is a bit time consuming to answer, i would like to thank you in advance.
Head
[Steelspine Faceguard]
[Beast Lord Helm]
[Helm of Desolation]
[Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight]
Neck
[Saberclaw Talisman]
[Choker of Vile Intent]
Shoulders
[Demon Stalker Shoulderguards]
[Beastmaw Pauldrons]
[Beast Lord Mantle]
[Pauldrons of Desolation]
Back
[Blood Knight War Cloak]
[Farstrider Wildercloak]
Chest
[Shard Encrusted Breastplate]
[Scaled Breastplate of Carnage]
[Beast Lord Cuirass]
Wrist
[Stalker's War Bands]
Waist
[Girdle of the Prowler]
Leggings
[Rip-Flayer Leggings]
[Midnight Legguards]
[Beast Lord Leggings]
[Emerald-Scale Greaves]
[Scaled Greaves of Patience]
Hands
[Demon Stalker Gauntlets]
[Handguards of the Steady]
[Beast Lord Handguards]
[Gauntlets of Desolation]
Boots
[Fiend Slayer Boots]
[Ferocious Swift-Kickers]
[Rapscallion Boots]
[Greaves of Desolation]
Rings:
[Garona's Signet Ring]
[Ring of Arathi Warlords]
[Violet Signet of the Master Assassin]
[Lightwarden's Band]
Trinkets
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
[Bloodlust Brooch]
Weapons
[Sonic Spear]
[Axe of the Gronn Lords]
[Emerald Ripper]
[Guile of Khoraazi]
[Borak's Reminder]
[Crystalforged War Axe]
2x[Stellaris]
Bow
[Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]
What would you use from these and with what enchants/gems?
Since this is a bit time consuming to answer, i would like to thank you in advance.
To evaluate gear I usually use Cheeky's spreadsheet to get AEP values for the stats I care about. Plug those values into lootzor and finally verify the results in the spreadsheet again.
In a raid environment for a SV hunter, Agility trumps both crit rating and attack power. I've found that plugging in 3.1 for Agility 1.9 for crit rating and 1 for attack power worked for me at my current level of gear. You may want to assign values for hit rating, sta etc. to suit your preferences, but I know I am hit capped with my current gear and just take whatever incidental stamina and int I get on the best dps gear.
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
In a raid environment for a SV hunter, Agility trumps both crit rating and attack power. I've found that plugging in 3.1 for Agility 1.9 for crit rating and 1 for attack power worked for me at my current level of gear. You may want to assign values for hit rating, sta etc. to suit your preferences, but I know I am hit capped with my current gear and just take whatever incidental stamina and int I get on the best dps gear.
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
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Originally Posted by Intenso
I am currently bm, the dmg output is great, the playstyle is boring. I would like to spec survival and this is the current gear i have in my hands for use
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Originally Posted by Jander
To evaluate gear I usually use Cheeky's spreadsheet to get AEP values for the stats I care about. Plug those values into lootzor and finally verify the results in the spreadsheet again.
In a raid environment for a SV hunter, Agility trumps both crit rating and attack power. I've found that plugging in 3.1 for Agility 1.9 for crit rating and 1 for attack power worked for me at my current level of gear. You may want to assign values for hit rating, sta etc. to suit your preferences, but I know I am hit capped with my current gear and just take whatever incidental stamina and int I get on the best dps gear. lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character |
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Originally Posted by Zedd
doesnt 100% belong here, awnsered in a pm though
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Thanks a lot both of you and sorry for putting it here. Didn't know where to post it.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I took the dive and went survival last night for Mag since we had an incredibly melee heavy group at the time. My personal DPS went down at least 200, and I didn't notice a real increase in everyone else's DPS. We had no enhance shammy, so it was tough to tell how much I was helping the rogues since this was our first ever raid without windfury.
My initial observation is this: in order for people to get anything out of Expose weakness they need to be getting the most out of their class they can be in the first place. Unfortunately, a lot of our people aren't doing that, and unless we have most of our "A team" on, we don't do very well because so many of our DPSers dont seem to care. . I am going to keep going with survival for about a week to see how things progress, but so far I am dissatisfied with it. EW seems to lend itself to a raid where people are maximizing themselves, but in a raid where they aren't it didn't seem to make any difference.With full buffs I had something like 830 agility.
Here's our WWS for last night (I was SV, top rogue was Combat maces):
Wow Web Stats
And the WWS from a week ago (BM, top rogue Hemo):
Wow Web Stats
My personal DPS last week was up about 55 more than usual as BM because our rogue took a Hemo build, giving me +50 damage per shot (1 shot every second, plus the pet getting 50 per swing), while the rogue's personal DPS was down more than 100 from he usually gets that fight as combat.
My initial observation is this: in order for people to get anything out of Expose weakness they need to be getting the most out of their class they can be in the first place. Unfortunately, a lot of our people aren't doing that, and unless we have most of our "A team" on, we don't do very well because so many of our DPSers dont seem to care. . I am going to keep going with survival for about a week to see how things progress, but so far I am dissatisfied with it. EW seems to lend itself to a raid where people are maximizing themselves, but in a raid where they aren't it didn't seem to make any difference.With full buffs I had something like 830 agility.
Here's our WWS for last night (I was SV, top rogue was Combat maces):
Wow Web Stats
And the WWS from a week ago (BM, top rogue Hemo):
Wow Web Stats
My personal DPS last week was up about 55 more than usual as BM because our rogue took a Hemo build, giving me +50 damage per shot (1 shot every second, plus the pet getting 50 per swing), while the rogue's personal DPS was down more than 100 from he usually gets that fight as combat.
Last edited by Kaber : 08/13/07 at 1:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
I took the dive and went survival last night for Mag since we had an incredibly melee heavy group at the time. My personal DPS went down at least 200, and I didn't notice a real increase in everyone else's DPS. We had no enhance shammy, so it was tough to tell how much I was helping the rogues since this was our first ever raid without windfury.
My initial observation is this: in order for people to get anything out of Expose weakness they need to be getting the most out of their class they can be in the first place. Unfortunately, a lot of our people aren't doing that, and unless we have most of our "A team" on, we don't do very well because so many of our DPSers dont seem to care. . I am going to keep going with survival for about a week to see how things progress, but so far I am dissatisfied with it. EW seems to lend itself to a raid where people are maximizing themselves, but in a raid where they aren't it didn't seem to make any difference.With full buffs I had something like 830 agility. Here's our WWS for last night (I was SV, top rogue was Combat maces): Wow Web Stats And the WWS from a week ago (BM, top rogue Hemo): Wow Web Stats My personal DPS last week was up about 55 more than usual as BM because our rogue took a Hemo build, giving me +50 damage per shot (1 shot every second, plus the pet getting 50 per swing), while the rogue's personal DPS was down more than 100 from he usually gets that fight as combat. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Groggan
You only did 38 multi shots and 27 arcane shots, that's why your personal DPS dropped so drastically (it'll drop, but not necessarily that drastically). Work on your 1:1.5 rotation between now and your next Mag raid and see how your DPS goes up.
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All that aside, I still see a loss of over 200 DPS, and little gain for the rest of our raid. That was more the point I was trying to show in posting those WWS.
Last edited by Kaber : 08/13/07 at 5:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
Part of the issue here is I'm on cube rotation. I spam my 1:1.5 macro full time, save for when I hit rapid fire+berzerk to regen mana while I auto shoot for about 10-15 seconds. If you look at when I was actually using my macro, I have 88 Steady Shots, and a combined 46 specials, which is about right for a 1:1.5. I had about 50 auto shots with nothing on them, so with both Berserk and RF up that gives me ~10-15 shots with nothing. Doing that (I believe) 3 times put me at ~40 auto shots, the other ~10 I believe are when I ran out of mana and just had to sit there until my mana pot came up.
Granted, I could stop using the rapid fire/berserk combo and see how I do, but I like giving myself a short rest from that intensive rotation. All that aside, I still see a loss of over 200 DPS, and little gain for the rest of our raid. That was more the point I was trying to show in posting those WWS. |
I would note that the raid-wide gain isn't one you are likely to feel. The individual dps gain for an individual character from a 250AP EW is only going to be around 75 dps most likely (and that would be the theorycrafted dps gain). As a result, it isn't very easy to "feel" how much it is helping your raid.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Is this the correct thread to speak about personal evaluations and how to get better as a SV hunter or is simply an evaluation of SV Raiding?
Sorry, been reading here at EJ only for about a month now, so I am unsure how to interact properly with the people here, i.e. where to post as a SV hunter and how to get better.
Rakan - WWS
sorry, this will prolly help.
Sorry, been reading here at EJ only for about a month now, so I am unsure how to interact properly with the people here, i.e. where to post as a SV hunter and how to get better.
Rakan - WWS
sorry, this will prolly help.
Last edited by Rakan : 08/13/07 at 5:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rakan
Is this the correct thread to speak about personal evaluations and how to get better as a SV hunter or is simply an evaluation of SV Raiding?
Sorry, been reading here at EJ only for about a month now, so I am unsure how to interact properly with the people here, i.e. where to post as a SV hunter and how to get better. |
Back onto the topic of the WWS: I noticed our BM hunter had the same DPS from raid 1 and raid 2, while the MM dropped over 200 DPS for no good reason. With expose weakness I would assume our BM would see an increase in DPS. Our rogue did decent DPS this time (I think he was the only rogue in with a resto shaman, and he convinced the shammy to drop WF), but that should be more of a function of going from Hemo back to combat. The other rogues seem to be sitting in about the same place. As far as I can tell, people really did not gain all that much from expose weakness in practice, though in theory they should have all seen at least a 70 DPS improvement.
The fight took 10% longer with me as survival as well. Survival is very difficult for me to figure out in terms of value. I can see the potential gains, but the potential keeps somehow getting lost in practice.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
There is a WWS thread to post on for personal improvement, this is where we discuss the mechanics of survival and how it performs (this got slightly derailed when I posted my WWS to try and show the difference in raid DPS with survival when personal improvement was brought up). Any WWS that gets posted here is for the purpose of analyzing survival itself and the contribution it does or does not bring to a raid, not the person in question.
Back onto the topic of the WWS: I noticed our BM hunter had the same DPS from raid 1 and raid 2, while the MM dropped over 200 DPS for no good reason. With expose weakness I would assume our BM would see an increase in DPS. Our rogue did decent DPS this time (I think he was the only rogue in with a resto shaman, and he convinced the shammy to drop WF), but that should be more of a function of going from Hemo back to combat. The other rogues seem to be sitting in about the same place. As far as I can tell, people really did not gain all that much from expose weakness in practice, though in theory they should have all seen at least a 70 DPS improvement. The fight took 10% longer with me as survival as well. Survival is very difficult for me to figure out in terms of value. I can see the potential gains, but the potential keeps somehow getting lost in practice. |
What macro are you using for your shot cycle? BM 1:1 + KC macros are super spammable and efficient, but I am yet to find any long cycle 1:1.5 shot cycle macros that really seem to work as intended.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
There is a WWS thread to post on for personal improvement, this is where we discuss the mechanics of survival and how it performs (this got slightly derailed when I posted my WWS to try and show the difference in raid DPS with survival when personal improvement was brought up). Any WWS that gets posted here is for the purpose of analyzing survival itself and the contribution it does or does not bring to a raid, not the person in question.
Back onto the topic of the WWS: I noticed our BM hunter had the same DPS from raid 1 and raid 2, while the MM dropped over 200 DPS for no good reason. With expose weakness I would assume our BM would see an increase in DPS. Our rogue did decent DPS this time (I think he was the only rogue in with a resto shaman, and he convinced the shammy to drop WF), but that should be more of a function of going from Hemo back to combat. The other rogues seem to be sitting in about the same place. As far as I can tell, people really did not gain all that much from expose weakness in practice, though in theory they should have all seen at least a 70 DPS improvement. The fight took 10% longer with me as survival as well. Survival is very difficult for me to figure out in terms of value. I can see the potential gains, but the potential keeps somehow getting lost in practice. |
2. I couldn't agree more that it is very difficult to figure out the actual value of EW. I would think it would come down to personal play style, which as you noted for your MM hunter, was down 200 dps for no good reason. More specifically what I mean by this, is that the contribution from EW is only roughly 70 dps, while nothing to sneeze at, can be easily overlooked/dismissed/missed in the natural ebb and flow of a persons play style. I could be mistaken, but I don't really think anybody can keep up the exact same dps every time, even on a Gruul or Void Reaver fight, because of the random nature of the cave ins/orbs.
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Originally Posted by miruman
Surv definitely takes a lot more refining and finesse than BM and the initial personal DPS drop is a bit of a system shock, but I have definitely seen WWS logs posted that prove it viable.
What macro are you using for your shot cycle? BM 1:1 + KC macros are super spammable and efficient, but I am yet to find any long cycle 1:1.5 shot cycle macros that really seem to work as intended. |
My rotation is setup for a 2.35-2.45 shot speed:
/castsequence reset=5/combat Multi-Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
In fact I recommend the above macro for any shot speed slower than 2.4s to avoid any heavy shot clipping. But you really need good latency to use macros like this, otherwise timing it yourself and casting the abilities as they come up is going to be better for DPS.
For SV hunters (and MM) I would highly advise against using a macro. They are nice for farming, but in a fight where you need to optimize DPS you need to be manually triggering your steady shots to minimize auto-shot delay. This unfortunately makes KC usage very difficult in practice (I think the best solution is probably two steady shot hot-keys, one of them being a KC-steady macro). The downside of this is you have to notice that KC is ready and use the appropriate key (or can you craft a KC-steady macro that uses KC before the steady if KC is up, otherwise just uses the steady?).
I may be missing something, but it appears that the second report you link to, Kaber, is bugged. I'm pretty sure Xeak is not a rogue. Plus, there are no Hellfire Channelers listed, so you're missing out on their damage.
I'm pretty sure that would affect DPS and total damage values greatly. It also will help account for that missing 10 minute gap between reports.
Plus, I think it's an unfortunate comparison to compare a week to one where the previous #1 damage source (and a physical damage dealer) was not present. You also had just plain fewer damage dealers the second run (16 versus 18).
All in all, I'd definitely give it another week.
I'm pretty sure that would affect DPS and total damage values greatly. It also will help account for that missing 10 minute gap between reports.
Plus, I think it's an unfortunate comparison to compare a week to one where the previous #1 damage source (and a physical damage dealer) was not present. You also had just plain fewer damage dealers the second run (16 versus 18).
All in all, I'd definitely give it another week.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Just a comment on the Shot Rotation Macro Vs Manual timing. we are currently working on Kael'Thas, in our 2nd week. working on p4-p5 changeover at the moment.
In the fight, I find myself very busy through the different phases. manually timing my shots is a whole lot more to think about. Therefore I feel a shot rotation macro is the way to go. As fights from now on will surely become more involved, how can you overlook a shot macro without damaging your raid performance. Discuss.
Im still playing with Different Rotations to find optimal DPS, im not using KC in my Macro, as alot of the time, my pet is not being used, On Engineer(LoS problems where our tank hold him), mage etc.
Heres a link to last nights attempts. Had 4 Hunters in raid, 3BM and myself as survival.
Wow Web Stats
Here is a link to my Armory if Required.
The Armory
EDIT. Using Bladefist trinket over DST for the extra crit with netherstrand bow
Raid Buffed.. About 1100 Agi, 45% crit, 2400AP, with Major Agi, Warp burger, Kings, Might, GoW, Air Totem, Sharpening Stone.
PS. Does anybody know of somebody working on a way to guage the Benefit of EW to a raid. we have roughly 8 Physical in a raid, and i figure forking out 2kap between them is a good buff
In the fight, I find myself very busy through the different phases. manually timing my shots is a whole lot more to think about. Therefore I feel a shot rotation macro is the way to go. As fights from now on will surely become more involved, how can you overlook a shot macro without damaging your raid performance. Discuss.
Im still playing with Different Rotations to find optimal DPS, im not using KC in my Macro, as alot of the time, my pet is not being used, On Engineer(LoS problems where our tank hold him), mage etc.
Heres a link to last nights attempts. Had 4 Hunters in raid, 3BM and myself as survival.
Wow Web Stats
Here is a link to my Armory if Required.
The Armory
EDIT. Using Bladefist trinket over DST for the extra crit with netherstrand bow
Raid Buffed.. About 1100 Agi, 45% crit, 2400AP, with Major Agi, Warp burger, Kings, Might, GoW, Air Totem, Sharpening Stone.
PS. Does anybody know of somebody working on a way to guage the Benefit of EW to a raid. we have roughly 8 Physical in a raid, and i figure forking out 2kap between them is a good buff
Last edited by Muzelf : 08/13/07 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Explanation on using Bladfists Bredth over DST
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Originally Posted by Muzelf
As fights from now on will surely become more involved, how can you overlook a shot macro without damaging your raid performance. Discuss.
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As far as something that tells you benefit to the raid, it'd be nice to see a mod that told you how much AP expose was adding to the raid and how high Hunter's Mark had stacked. Here's hoping they add the Hunter's Mark thing to the icon as a number.
I think what he meant was, that with the complexity of fights increasing, it's beneficial to just use a spammable macro (and possibly even take a slight DPS hit?) if it enables you to learn the intricacies of the encounter, handle transitions, etc. I think it's a pretty valid point -- the less you are consciously worrying about, the better.
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Originally Posted by ugla
As far as something that tells you benefit to the raid, it'd be nice to see a mod that told you how much AP expose was adding to the raid and how high Hunter's Mark had stacked. Here's hoping they add the Hunter's Mark thing to the icon as a number.
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A = your agility
N = number of physical damagers in raid
A/4*N = Total AP contribution
Don't forget that pets count as individual physical damagers for the purpose of N.
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Originally Posted by Muzelf
In the fight, I find myself very busy through the different phases. manually timing my shots is a whole lot more to think about. Therefore I feel a shot rotation macro is the way to go. As fights from now on will surely become more involved, how can you overlook a shot macro without damaging your raid performance. Discuss.
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Also, directly comparing to the only WWS I have for Kael (WWS), you should be using more steady shots.
As SV I am using this macro:
Multi Shot will be triggered manually.
Big plus is that you do not have to care about your bow speed.
I know about the auto shot delay but just give it a try it works out really well. Ravager should be the pet of your choice imo.
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command; /castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot; /castrandom Arcane Shot;
Big plus is that you do not have to care about your bow speed.
I know about the auto shot delay but just give it a try it works out really well. Ravager should be the pet of your choice imo.
hey, havent read the entire post but got a question for u theorycraft-lovers !
how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ?
i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ?
(atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones)
sorry for bad english
how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ?
i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ?
(atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones)
sorry for bad english
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Originally Posted by Niouk
hey, havent read the entire post but got a question for u theorycraft-lovers !
how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ? i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ? (atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones) sorry for bad english |
Because there is a thread called [Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1. And it's a question about SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1.
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Originally Posted by zork
As SV I am using this macro:
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command; /castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot; /castrandom Arcane Shot; Big plus is that you do not have to care about your bow speed. I know about the auto shot delay but just give it a try it works out really well. Ravager should be the pet of your choice imo. |
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Originally Posted by Niouk
Because there is a thread called [Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1. And it's a question about SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1.
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I'd say there are definate draw-backs to trying to stack too much crit, and personally I think 35% pre-raid buffs is about right. No math to back it up, just a gut feeling and some experience with diminishing returns on crit. Maybe a mathmagician can work that one out for you.
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Originally Posted by Niouk
how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ?
i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ? (atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones) sorry for bad english |
As far as I know, the reason you have 2-3% crit less in damage meters than your char sheet says is not cause you have too much of it, but instead because the boss is 3 levels higher than you.
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Originally Posted by Barbon
As far as I know, the reason you have 2-3% crit less in damage meters than your char sheet says is not cause you have too much of it, but instead because the boss is 3 levels higher than you.
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I have had nights were my crit rate was 7-8% higher than expected, times it has been 7-8% lower, but generally it is within 0.5% of what it should be.
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Originally Posted by Howitzer
I tend to believe that while crit scales very well up to about 45%, anything past that point has deminishing returns. Even 40% crit is enough in my opinion. Once you get to that point you should start focusing on RAP. Its basically a balancing act no matter which tree you spec into. Survival hunters usually just stack the hell out of agility and focus on their EW proc's strength knowing that their DPS never is going to be greater than full-marks or full-BM spec.
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The value of crit, and of rap (and thus of agi) varies based on your weapon damage, weapon speed, RAP, crit, hit, and shot cycle. All 6 of these elements have to be considered when trying to decide if X crit rating is better than Y rap or Z agi at any given time. For that matter, all these questions of "how much crit is too much" or "how much rap is too much" are moot when you actually look at in-game itemization. The only part of the game where a hunter should ask themselves the question of "do I want crit, ap, or agi" is in gem selection. All other item choices are much more complicated and if it is really a question of it being an upgrade should just be switched out in the spreadsheet to see the result to DPS.
For those of you wanting to find which gem selections to make, you can use this spreadsheet to find the incremental differences made by crit/rap/agi under various circumstances based on your current pertinent stats. Fill out the yellow fields, look at the changes in shot damage, and use those to decide what to do (if all shots increase in damage more for one stat then that is your best choice). I'll tell you now though, for SV and BM agi is going to win out the vast majority of the time, especially if you assume the presence of BoK.
Sorry if I sound snide, I'm just tired of people tossing around mis-information with regard to "diminishing returns" for crit, rap, and agi.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
There is no "diminishing returns" on crit, rap, or any other stat. You can't get so much that getting more won't increase your DPS. And, furthermore, there is no magic RAP value where crit is suddenly all you should strive for. Nor is there some magic crit value when RAP is all you should strive for.
... Sorry if I sound snide, I'm just tired of people tossing around mis-information with regard to "diminishing returns" for crit, rap, and agi. |
If you have 0 crit, and 5/5 mortal shots and 100% hit rate, the first point of crit will increase your DPS by 1.3%. The second point increases it ~1.28%, thus a "diminished" return from the first one. As Crit rises relative to RAP (or vice versa), it becomes less valuable RELATIVE to RAP(and thus diminishing relative returns).
And if you've got on-crit procs like the Hourglass of the Unraveller, it actually can add less total damage per point due to hidden cooldowns on that proc, independent of RAP. You also aren't getting much more Expose Weakness up-time(those first 40% crit give you something like 90% uptime. The next 40 points add < 10% uptime) or more useful go for the throat focus, etc
So yes, the more crit you have, the less useful each additional point of crit is. It's never *bad* for you, but it certainly was less useful for you than the previous point of crit.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
There is no "diminishing returns" on crit, rap, or any other stat. You can't get so much that getting more won't increase your DPS. And, furthermore, there is no magic RAP value where crit is suddenly all you should strive for.
Sorry if I sound snide, I'm just tired of people tossing around mis-information with regard to "diminishing returns" for crit, rap, and agi. |
If you don't believe me, Groggan, thats fine, but in practice, I've proved the point to myself with my own WWS results.
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Originally Posted by Harwin
Diminishing returns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you have 0 crit, and 5/5 mortal shots and 100% hit rate, the first point of crit will increase your DPS by 1.3%. The second point increases it ~1.28%, thus a "diminished" return from the first one. As Crit rises relative to RAP (or vice versa), it becomes less valuable RELATIVE to RAP(and thus diminishing relative returns). And if you've got on-crit procs like the Hourglass of the Unraveller, it actually can add less total damage per point due to hidden cooldowns on that proc, independent of RAP. You also aren't getting much more Expose Weakness up-time(those first 40% crit give you something like 90% uptime. The next 40 points add < 10% uptime) or more useful go for the throat focus, etc So yes, the more crit you have, the less useful each additional point of crit is. It's never *bad* for you, but it certainly was less useful for you than the previous point of crit. |
*shrug* Math is good enough for me when it comes to seeing if incremental ap, crit, or agi are more valuable at any given time than general theories.
And, as I said, the whole argument is a non-issue when you ground yourself in in-game itemization. Show me an item selection choice where you honestly are choosing between increasing your crit by X or using another item and increasing your rap by Y. Itemization choices are much too complex to paint in black and white terms of "get the crit item" or "get the rap item". The only realm that these choices are an issue is gem selection, and it has been shown rather solidly (particularly with BoK) that agi is king of gems (if you are ignoring socket bonuses, if not then some of the ap/crit gems would probably be more useful than the agi/whatever gems for non SV hunters). Either way, the tools are there to get real valuations for gem selections.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
By that definition everything has diminishing returns. And again, crit value is not based solely on RAP, it is based on weapon damage, weapon speed, haste effects, hit, rap, and even crit itself. If you change your weapon the valuation of both crit and rap will change.
*shrug* Math is good enough for me when it comes to seeing if incremental ap, crit, or agi are more valuable at any given time than general theories. And, as I said, the whole argument is a non-issue when you ground yourself in in-game itemization. Show me an item selection choice where you honestly are choosing between increasing your crit by X or using another item and increasing your rap by Y. Itemization choices are much too complex to paint in black and white terms of "get the crit item" or "get the rap item". The only realm that these choices are an issue is gem selection, and it has been shown rather solidly (particularly with BoK) that agi is king of gems (if you are ignoring socket bonuses, if not then some of the ap/crit gems would probably be more useful than the agi/whatever gems for non SV hunters). Either way, the tools are there to get real valuations for gem selections. |
It is a issue of semantics but I don't think diminishing returns is an accurate description either.
At any given time, given your spec and current gear, a relative weighting of stats is only valid for that snapshot of your character.
If I sat down and crunched the numbers for my character right now I might come up with 2 Agi = 4 AP = 2.2 HR = 2.1 CR. However those numbers are only valid while my stats and spec remain constant. If I treated these like absolutes and stacked the hell out of CR these relative weights change and might be 2 Agi = 4 AP = 2.2 HR = 1.5 CR. Now my gear is out of whack, I've treated a snapshot of my character like it was true for any spec/gearing.
This is what people mean when they say gear selection is a balancing act and there isn't one solution across all levels of gear, even within the same spec.
All of the numbers I used were purely for illustrations sake and should not be treated as anything but made up crap
Edit: what I was really trying to say is let the whole diminishing returns thing go!
At any given time, given your spec and current gear, a relative weighting of stats is only valid for that snapshot of your character.
If I sat down and crunched the numbers for my character right now I might come up with 2 Agi = 4 AP = 2.2 HR = 2.1 CR. However those numbers are only valid while my stats and spec remain constant. If I treated these like absolutes and stacked the hell out of CR these relative weights change and might be 2 Agi = 4 AP = 2.2 HR = 1.5 CR. Now my gear is out of whack, I've treated a snapshot of my character like it was true for any spec/gearing.
This is what people mean when they say gear selection is a balancing act and there isn't one solution across all levels of gear, even within the same spec.
All of the numbers I used were purely for illustrations sake and should not be treated as anything but made up crap
Edit: what I was really trying to say is let the whole diminishing returns thing go!
Ok, having read through all the pages and attempting to oblige Glaurong, may I pose a question?
As a SV hybrid spec ( and i love it) I am trying to decide what to do for my raiding guild. I went the sacrifice route and basically damaged my DPS by getting improved Hunters mark and exposed weakness.
My mana regen is awful cause I need Scatter shot to get myself out of bad situations and Its rare I will get any SP love or Shaman love in 25 mans.
So one says chug posts, make sure rotation is good so on and so forth, which I do..I still manage to get in top 3-5 but am struggling against rogues and locks and one SP
So I have designed this somewhat selfish, personal DPS boost spec but still keeping EW
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Shall I go for this?
Clipping my shots will not happen as I have a AS timer and I watch my rotations with an eagle eye ( well very occasionally it happens )
so I made another spec which still benefits the raids etc but once again severe mana problems on long fights, issues with no healing for my pet and so on
The Armory
Thats my current spec...
So wondering if combining the haste rating from the trophy trinket and IAOTH and if i put points in mana efficiency and sacrifice scatter shot (cry) , will it be better since raid buffed i can rwach 37-38% and 42% with LOTP and I can have EW a lot and I wont go OOM?
As a SV hybrid spec ( and i love it) I am trying to decide what to do for my raiding guild. I went the sacrifice route and basically damaged my DPS by getting improved Hunters mark and exposed weakness.
My mana regen is awful cause I need Scatter shot to get myself out of bad situations and Its rare I will get any SP love or Shaman love in 25 mans.
So one says chug posts, make sure rotation is good so on and so forth, which I do..I still manage to get in top 3-5 but am struggling against rogues and locks and one SP
So I have designed this somewhat selfish, personal DPS boost spec but still keeping EW
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Shall I go for this?
Clipping my shots will not happen as I have a AS timer and I watch my rotations with an eagle eye ( well very occasionally it happens )
so I made another spec which still benefits the raids etc but once again severe mana problems on long fights, issues with no healing for my pet and so on
The Armory
Thats my current spec...
So wondering if combining the haste rating from the trophy trinket and IAOTH and if i put points in mana efficiency and sacrifice scatter shot (cry) , will it be better since raid buffed i can rwach 37-38% and 42% with LOTP and I can have EW a lot and I wont go OOM?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Have you made it clear to your guild you have gimped your mana in order to buff the melee dps? If I was going to swap efficiency for imp hunters mark I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask to be grouped with a shadow priest to make up for the mana loss.
What does your normal shadow priest group look like?
Also, your proposed build isn't that selfish as your are still giving the raids physical dps a pretty good AP buff from EW
What does your normal shadow priest group look like?
Also, your proposed build isn't that selfish as your are still giving the raids physical dps a pretty good AP buff from EW
Last edited by rudedog : 08/16/07 at 8:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by rudedog
Have you made it clear to your guild you have gimped your mana in order to buff the melee dps? If I was going to swap efficiency for imp hunters mark I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask to be grouped with a shadow priest to make up for the mana loss.
What does your normal shadow priest group look like? Also, your proposed build isn't that selfish as your are still giving the raids physical dps a pretty good AP buff from EW |
I have been gently explaining hunter mechanics to my offficers and tried to show them how much more efficient i can be when allowed a SP
However, the healers and melee DPS need the Shamans more and the healers/casters want the SP. Being the only hunter now in the guild I feel a bit concious all the time and I get really stressed about improving my DPS. I have to focus so hard to ensure everything is just right.
On another note, when I went the MT route my Crit jumped to 51% ( i kid you not) with raid buffs and LOTP , DPS was grand but oh boy when up close and personal in instances I really missed scatter.Now, I read this bit in the thread that more crit is not necessarily better which has me a bit worried. Did that high crit rating not count?
Any clues on what is the cap on crit then? What is the ideal balance then for Crit/AP . Is there a ratio which one can aim for?
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Originally Posted by Jemsky
Well, we have one shadow priest and two shamans as we had our top two SP's leave us for a better guild and that was painful to say the least
I have been gently explaining hunter mechanics to my offficers and tried to show them how much more efficient i can be when allowed a SP However, the healers and melee DPS need the Shamans more and the healers/casters want the SP. Being the only hunter now in the guild I feel a bit concious all the time and I get really stressed about improving my DPS. I have to focus so hard to ensure everything is just right. On another note, when I went the MT route my Crit jumped to 51% ( i kid you not) with raid buffs and LOTP , DPS was grand but oh boy when up close and personal in instances I really missed scatter.Now, I read this bit in the thread that more crit is not necessarily better which has me a bit worried. Did that high crit rating not count? Any clues on what is the cap on crit then? What is the ideal balance then for Crit/AP . Is there a ratio which one can aim for? |
I'm also in the same position where I'm usually thrown in the paladin/warlock groups instead of shaman/feral druid/spriest. While mana is a problem for us, other classes *might* be able to make better use out of shaman/SP than us. The melee group definitely needs windfury, and my raid group has a few arcane mages that can dump all the mana from shadow priests faster than I could. Mana problem can be mostly countered with chain chugging mana pots, but I'm bitter that I don't get GoA/LotP though =(
Again, there is no "cap" on crit, only reduced effectiveness of it if you neglect AP. The question to ask yourself is, do you have quality alternative gears that can boost your AP without sacrificing too much crit? If not, start collecting items that's end up giving you more AP than crit and slowly make the transition. In my opinion, I'd think 2k RAP and 35% crit is a rough example of balanced ratio for survival.
You won't be beating many rogues on the meters. After all, you're buffing them with some 350-400 AP =) To sum up survival raiding in my own words, I'd say one should focus on maximize the AP buff to the raid while remaining competitive in damage.
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Originally Posted by Jemsky
Well, we have one shadow priest and two shamans as we had our top two SP's leave us for a better guild and that was painful to say the least
I have been gently explaining hunter mechanics to my offficers and tried to show them how much more efficient i can be when allowed a SP However, the healers and melee DPS need the Shamans more and the healers/casters want the SP. Being the only hunter now in the guild I feel a bit concious all the time and I get really stressed about improving my DPS. I have to focus so hard to ensure everything is just right. On another note, when I went the MT route my Crit jumped to 51% ( i kid you not) with raid buffs and LOTP , DPS was grand but oh boy when up close and personal in instances I really missed scatter.Now, I read this bit in the thread that more crit is not necessarily better which has me a bit worried. Did that high crit rating not count? Any clues on what is the cap on crit then? What is the ideal balance then for Crit/AP . Is there a ratio which one can aim for? |
I think the point about crit is that unless you keep it somewhat balanced with AP its worth can be lessened. If you stack lots of crit at the expense of AP, each % crit gained will suffer from an ammount of diminishing returns. The exact same can be said for stacking AP at the expense of crit though. Personaly, I don't believe there is such a thing as a crit cap as long as you keep it balanced with AP increases.
I would like to think that there is some optimum AP to Crit ratio (gear aside) but so far I haven't seen anyone have a stab at working out what it might be. The only thing I can suggest is trying different builds and gear/gem combinations in Cheeky's spreadsheet and seeing what is optimum for you.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
More crit is always better, more ap is always better. 16 more attack power may be better than 8 crit rating at one point, where it may be worse at another.
A while ago, I graphed each individual shot's average damage based on crit and attack power, which gave me a 3D curve, and it wasn't too hard to eyeball a line which would represent the ideal ap/crit curve. I combined the three graphs into one using a standard 1:1.5 rotation, to get the seperate graphs combined into one. Once I had that graph, I didn't really know what to do with it, and I think I eventually deleted or misplaced them all. You can see where you sit on the graph, and whether you are on the crit side, or ap side of the ideal curve, but what does that really accomplish? The graph would only be good for a certain spec, and a specific shot rotation. After everything was done, I started to wonder if it was even useful, aside from pretty colors. I started to wonder about the item budget and how that played in to gear choice, and managed to confuse myself pretty thoroughly. I might try to track it down if there is interest, but I've yet to figure out what I'd really want it for.
(e) There is an optimum crit/ap ratio, but it varies depending on your current crit and ap. So even if you did find it, every time you changed gear, changed spec, received a buff, or didnt receive a buff it would change. Thinking about this gives me a headache, maybe I'll try to get my thoughts straight over the weekend. I think someone mentioned that this ratio could be expressed as an equation, basically combine your shot rotation in the right ratio into one equation, keeping ap and crit as variables, TotalDamage = multi + 2 arcane + 3 steady + 4 auto, or whatever your rotation works out to.
Differentiate this in terms of crit, and then ap. Get a ratio d(crit)/d(ap), and solve for one of the other. This -should- give you an equation for the worth of crit vs. ap, and it work for where ever you are in the scale. This equation would change depending on spec, and I'm not sure if I remembered it exactly right.
A while ago, I graphed each individual shot's average damage based on crit and attack power, which gave me a 3D curve, and it wasn't too hard to eyeball a line which would represent the ideal ap/crit curve. I combined the three graphs into one using a standard 1:1.5 rotation, to get the seperate graphs combined into one. Once I had that graph, I didn't really know what to do with it, and I think I eventually deleted or misplaced them all. You can see where you sit on the graph, and whether you are on the crit side, or ap side of the ideal curve, but what does that really accomplish? The graph would only be good for a certain spec, and a specific shot rotation. After everything was done, I started to wonder if it was even useful, aside from pretty colors. I started to wonder about the item budget and how that played in to gear choice, and managed to confuse myself pretty thoroughly. I might try to track it down if there is interest, but I've yet to figure out what I'd really want it for.
(e) There is an optimum crit/ap ratio, but it varies depending on your current crit and ap. So even if you did find it, every time you changed gear, changed spec, received a buff, or didnt receive a buff it would change. Thinking about this gives me a headache, maybe I'll try to get my thoughts straight over the weekend. I think someone mentioned that this ratio could be expressed as an equation, basically combine your shot rotation in the right ratio into one equation, keeping ap and crit as variables, TotalDamage = multi + 2 arcane + 3 steady + 4 auto, or whatever your rotation works out to.
Differentiate this in terms of crit, and then ap. Get a ratio d(crit)/d(ap), and solve for one of the other. This -should- give you an equation for the worth of crit vs. ap, and it work for where ever you are in the scale. This equation would change depending on spec, and I'm not sure if I remembered it exactly right.
Last edited by Kolusius : 08/16/07 at 1:44 PM.
Is there a way to identify actual raid benefit of EW based on WWS logs?
From what I can tell you cannot, short of trying to have the exact same raid twice (one with and one without EW) and compare physical damagers dps and damage done at the end of the runs.
It shows up as a debuff in WWS parses, but no hard data appears to be attributed to it.
Wow Web Stats
It sure would be nice not having to caveat explainations of the raid benefit of EW with an "In Theory..."
Any advice?
From what I can tell you cannot, short of trying to have the exact same raid twice (one with and one without EW) and compare physical damagers dps and damage done at the end of the runs.
It shows up as a debuff in WWS parses, but no hard data appears to be attributed to it.
Wow Web Stats
It sure would be nice not having to caveat explainations of the raid benefit of EW with an "In Theory..."
Any advice?
"Hi, whenever my Expose Weakness is up, every ranged / melee attacker against that target gains [Agility]/4 Attack Power. Most ranged / melee attackers gain somewhere between 0.2 and 0.3 effective DPS per Attack Power (dependant of class / spec, most are closer to 0.3).
This means that, whenever Expose Weakness is up, the raid's DPS increases by [Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3.
Additionally, the tank is able to produce more threat, possibly allowing for more damage to be dealt by e.g. our casters, who do not benefit directly from Expose Weakness."
For example, with 900 Agility and 7 Melee & Ranged attackers on target, 225 AP gained, 67.5 DPS gained per attacker (roughly), ~470 DPS gained for raid.
This means that, whenever Expose Weakness is up, the raid's DPS increases by [Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3.
Additionally, the tank is able to produce more threat, possibly allowing for more damage to be dealt by e.g. our casters, who do not benefit directly from Expose Weakness."
For example, with 900 Agility and 7 Melee & Ranged attackers on target, 225 AP gained, 67.5 DPS gained per attacker (roughly), ~470 DPS gained for raid.
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Originally Posted by Lactose
"Hi, whenever my Expose Weakness is up, every ranged / melee attacker against that target gains [Agility]/4 Attack Power. Most ranged / melee attackers gain somewhere between 0.2 and 0.3 effective DPS per Attack Power (dependant of class / spec, most are closer to 0.3).
This means that, whenever Expose Weakness is up, the raid's DPS increases by [Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3. Additionally, the tank is able to produce more threat, possibly allowing for more damage to be dealt by e.g. our casters, who do not benefit directly from Expose Weakness." For example, with 900 Agility and 7 Melee & Ranged attackers on target, 225 AP gained, 67.5 DPS gained per attacker (roughly), ~470 DPS gained for raid. |
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Originally Posted by Acedude
To sum up survival raiding in my own words, I'd say one should focus on maximize the AP buff to the raid while remaining competitive in damage.
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The tough itemization range is T5, I just got my 4th piece, but I don't think I am going to be able to use it without significantly lowering the effectiveness of my EW.
And, @ Lactose, that's pretty much exactly what I've been finding in my surveys for DPS:AP ratios. Really, I get the feeling that a well geared SV hunter may be one of the single largest raid-dps contributors in the game if you have a respectable amount of physical damagers in your raid.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
And, @ Lactose, that's pretty much exactly what I've been finding in my surveys for DPS:AP ratios. Really, I get the feeling that a well geared SV hunter may be one of the single largest raid-dps contributors in the game if you have a respectable amount of physical damagers in your raid.
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For example, when i respecced survival, our hunters should have all seen an increase in DPS. Instead, they are all hovering exactly where they have been. 1 refuses to respec from his MM pvp build, while the other honestly tries but is quite simply not that good a player and has to be pushed to get good DPS. Most of our current rogues are doing very subpar DPS as well, and despite all the help we try to give people, a lot of the DPSers either can't or won't take advantage of the buffs raid help specs bring them. When our "A team" is on, I feel speccing survival is beneficial, unfortunately we are a casual family style raiding guild and we can't all be there for a hard-core 24/7 raid schedule, which means our "A team" is always at about half strength, with the occasional full showing.
Without our top people blowing up the DPS charts, that sense of competition does not kick in and our people that are low on DPS get lazy and do worse damage than before (which really shouldn't be possible).
Where EW/Hemo/etc... really shine is when you have a great core of DPSers. Its been my experience thus far that survival isn't that great in the T4-5 areas of the game, since people are still learning and coming into their own.
To quote, EW is good when the rogues know how to benefit on it
Then you get people telling you, ones who dont know you've gimped your own talent sheet that you cant DPS and your jaw drops to the floor.
Anyways, bitter comment aside,
I have decided to spec for Mana efficiency and keep EW 5/5 Efficiency & 2/3 TOTH. Lets see if I can OutDPS warlocks with this Spec and no Shaman and SP in the group.
Secondly, I found that having an approximate unbuffed 31.4% Crit Chance and 2k+ AP works well , so perhaps balancing AP/Crit in that ratio is a good guesstimate..
Any takers on the Math workout for this?
Then you get people telling you, ones who dont know you've gimped your own talent sheet that you cant DPS and your jaw drops to the floor.
Anyways, bitter comment aside,
I have decided to spec for Mana efficiency and keep EW 5/5 Efficiency & 2/3 TOTH. Lets see if I can OutDPS warlocks with this Spec and no Shaman and SP in the group.
Secondly, I found that having an approximate unbuffed 31.4% Crit Chance and 2k+ AP works well , so perhaps balancing AP/Crit in that ratio is a good guesstimate..
Any takers on the Math workout for this?
as with the above posters i dont feel i can make very good use of survival. I have around 3 actual melee, plus an enhancement shaman who is lowering his own dmg to WF his group, and our feral tanks who sometimes dps when they arent needed in bearform. Allup the total people benefitting from my EW would number around 7, including the hunters. Just doesn't feel justified, although i do understand that 7 people benefiting from EW is still a raid-contribution of around 1500+ AP.
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Originally Posted by Ishmaael
the total people benefitting from my EW would number around 7, including the hunters. Just doesn't feel justified, although i do understand that 7 people benefiting from EW is still a raid-contribution of around 1500+ AP.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ive read most pages ( up to 6-7) and ive have some questions of my own. im assuming that when i mention survival build, EW is automatically assumed
1. What is the general consensus on EJ forums? On the wowforums, its important to have balanced amounts of agi and AP, but on the first few pages of this topic, someone linked gears that had the most AGI, but little AP ( if any) , which leads me to conclude that EJ promotes going as much agi , sacrificing AP for the good of the whole, which im completely fine with.
2. Ive read that keeping your AP high enough yet have high agi is important for the EW build. ive seen 600 agi, 800 agi being points that you need to be at least for EW to benefit. However, i never found out what was a good AP to go with the agi, which translates into me not knowing how much agi i should be sacrificing for a gear change.
2. Im currently raiding Karazhan with a guild, and there is a different turn out rate each time. Is there a minimum amount of physical DPS to justify going survival, or is the fact that 1 prot tank and 1 rogue is enough reason to use EW
3. Just a small question, but my shot rotation is
auto
steady
arcane
auto
<SOMETHING>
usually when i get to the SOMETHING part, i start spamming the steady shot key, and most of the time steady shot will barely finish. Should i be using multishot ( CC pending ) for something , or is what im doing correct. Also, is forcing that steady shot out of the norm? ive noticed that i cannot consistently do this, which leads me to believe that it requires really good timing, or a display bug with my autoshoot add on
4. Is there some sort of website that lets you insert gear, and it will give a character sheet of what your character would have? ive seen the spreadsheet ( way over my head), is that a text version of what im talking about?
5. Ive worked out a build in my head which maximizes agi from both MM and suv tree and it looks like this
0/28/33
i never saw the appeal of readiness. It allows for 30 second hasted attack, ( and if i interpreted what ive read so far correctly, controlled haste = good, proc = bad) , more traps and oh **** resisted feign. If i were to go that build, that would give me a 17% agi increase, which is always good. However, am i passing up to many good talents in survival to do that?Is there general build that EJ has considered good ?
6. Ahoq. The godly hunter who goes 0/20/41. Is he doing the right thing? ive seen previous pages saying how when your base crit is as high as his is, MT is just a waste of points. Also, what is the reason behind savage strikes? I like it because when i get melee, chances are its about to be dead, and a nice crit or 2 will finish it off nicely, but is that the reason why? And why the heck is he missing a ring in his armory?
7. Survival pets. Ive been through a bunch of pets for raids, wolfs ( gimmick if anything) cats , scorpids ( never saw high ticks , though i dont have an hour glass) . What is considered a survival's pet, and what role does it do? I used to have a boar to charge adds off softies, but that soon changed when the boar got bored and i changed to a wolf for the nice ap bonus. But it hardly seemed useful because when im standing at max range, the wolf doesnt give bonus to the ones at the mob, and if i howled at the mob, i dont get the bonus, and this is all assuming im in the DPS group. should i just get a level 70 2.2 patch ravager and use him for straight DPS?
8. wyvern sting, how good is it? from this quote
This spec is just wrong. 4/5 in MT is a waste. The only reason you go for MT is to get readiness. Furthermore you skipped Survivalist which has obvious benefits. And no Wyvern Sting? It's one of the best moves a SV hunter gets...
is it really that good? ive only ever used it in pvp ( 1/2 the time i get LOS ) and once in Slabs right before the second boss with those tricky pulls. Is it really that worth it to put 1 point for?
9. Lastly, how does my gear look for karazhan raid The Armory
i personally think that i need the hourglass of whatever from BM, boots tfrom god knows where, and maybe a new ring. I do have some gear mentioned from previous pages , ( like the neck of the deep , the 2 socket neck, or the belt of gale force ) but ive switched it up with stuff that has around 10 less agi, but alot more AP. Some suggestions on that part would be nice too.
Thanks for reading my lengthly post, and now i head of to bed. Hopefully i followed most of the forum's rules
1. What is the general consensus on EJ forums? On the wowforums, its important to have balanced amounts of agi and AP, but on the first few pages of this topic, someone linked gears that had the most AGI, but little AP ( if any) , which leads me to conclude that EJ promotes going as much agi , sacrificing AP for the good of the whole, which im completely fine with.
2. Ive read that keeping your AP high enough yet have high agi is important for the EW build. ive seen 600 agi, 800 agi being points that you need to be at least for EW to benefit. However, i never found out what was a good AP to go with the agi, which translates into me not knowing how much agi i should be sacrificing for a gear change.
2. Im currently raiding Karazhan with a guild, and there is a different turn out rate each time. Is there a minimum amount of physical DPS to justify going survival, or is the fact that 1 prot tank and 1 rogue is enough reason to use EW
3. Just a small question, but my shot rotation is
auto
steady
arcane
auto
<SOMETHING>
usually when i get to the SOMETHING part, i start spamming the steady shot key, and most of the time steady shot will barely finish. Should i be using multishot ( CC pending ) for something , or is what im doing correct. Also, is forcing that steady shot out of the norm? ive noticed that i cannot consistently do this, which leads me to believe that it requires really good timing, or a display bug with my autoshoot add on
4. Is there some sort of website that lets you insert gear, and it will give a character sheet of what your character would have? ive seen the spreadsheet ( way over my head), is that a text version of what im talking about?
5. Ive worked out a build in my head which maximizes agi from both MM and suv tree and it looks like this
0/28/33
i never saw the appeal of readiness. It allows for 30 second hasted attack, ( and if i interpreted what ive read so far correctly, controlled haste = good, proc = bad) , more traps and oh **** resisted feign. If i were to go that build, that would give me a 17% agi increase, which is always good. However, am i passing up to many good talents in survival to do that?Is there general build that EJ has considered good ?
6. Ahoq. The godly hunter who goes 0/20/41. Is he doing the right thing? ive seen previous pages saying how when your base crit is as high as his is, MT is just a waste of points. Also, what is the reason behind savage strikes? I like it because when i get melee, chances are its about to be dead, and a nice crit or 2 will finish it off nicely, but is that the reason why? And why the heck is he missing a ring in his armory?
7. Survival pets. Ive been through a bunch of pets for raids, wolfs ( gimmick if anything) cats , scorpids ( never saw high ticks , though i dont have an hour glass) . What is considered a survival's pet, and what role does it do? I used to have a boar to charge adds off softies, but that soon changed when the boar got bored and i changed to a wolf for the nice ap bonus. But it hardly seemed useful because when im standing at max range, the wolf doesnt give bonus to the ones at the mob, and if i howled at the mob, i dont get the bonus, and this is all assuming im in the DPS group. should i just get a level 70 2.2 patch ravager and use him for straight DPS?
8. wyvern sting, how good is it? from this quote
This spec is just wrong. 4/5 in MT is a waste. The only reason you go for MT is to get readiness. Furthermore you skipped Survivalist which has obvious benefits. And no Wyvern Sting? It's one of the best moves a SV hunter gets...
is it really that good? ive only ever used it in pvp ( 1/2 the time i get LOS ) and once in Slabs right before the second boss with those tricky pulls. Is it really that worth it to put 1 point for?
9. Lastly, how does my gear look for karazhan raid The Armory
i personally think that i need the hourglass of whatever from BM, boots tfrom god knows where, and maybe a new ring. I do have some gear mentioned from previous pages , ( like the neck of the deep , the 2 socket neck, or the belt of gale force ) but ive switched it up with stuff that has around 10 less agi, but alot more AP. Some suggestions on that part would be nice too.
Thanks for reading my lengthly post, and now i head of to bed. Hopefully i followed most of the forum's rules
Last edited by matrixsage : 08/21/07 at 8:13 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by matrixsage
2. Im currently raiding Karazhan with a guild, and there is a different turn out rate each time. Is there a minimum amount of physical DPS to justify going survival, or is the fact that 1 prot tank and 1 rogue is enough reason to use EW |
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Originally Posted by matrixsage
my shot rotation is
auto steady arcane auto <SOMETHING> |
Auto->Steady+Multi
Auto->Steady
Auto->Steady+Arcane
Auto->Steady
Can be very difficult to do manually, so there are a lot of macros to use if you look around.
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Originally Posted by matrixsage
7. Survival pets.
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Originally Posted by matrixsage
9. Lastly, how does my gear look for karazhan
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Last edited by khel : 08/22/07 at 7:46 AM.
I would really question advising the 7/21/33 build. As has been mentioned before the value of haste to a MM or Survival hunter is at best questionable. It provides no benefit to the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 rotation will do less damage even if you switch to it with QS up. I have verified this for my own gear using Cheeky's spreadsheet however it could be somewhat gear dependent. Bottom line, unless you are BM haste is not really that great with the exception of rapid fire (and possibly Heroism/Bloodlust) which provides enough haste to make switch to a 1:1 rotation worth it.
Realistically, even though MT is not that great when compared head on to other options, it is still a better talent than IAotH for a Survival build. TotH, while obviously providing no dps increase, is still a very nice bonus to go with it too. Yes I agree FF is a great talent for two points but it's not so great for seven.
Just my $0.02.
Here is a raiding build I would recommand: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
If you really want to get IHM instead of efficiency.
Realistically, even though MT is not that great when compared head on to other options, it is still a better talent than IAotH for a Survival build. TotH, while obviously providing no dps increase, is still a very nice bonus to go with it too. Yes I agree FF is a great talent for two points but it's not so great for seven.
Just my $0.02.
Here is a raiding build I would recommand: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
If you really want to get IHM instead of efficiency.
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Originally Posted by Seipher
I would really question advising the 7/21/33 build. As has been mentioned before the value of haste to a MM or Survival hunter is at best questionable. It provides no benefit to the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 rotation will do less damage even if you switch to it with QS up. I have verified this for my own gear using Cheeky's spreadsheet however it could be somewhat gear dependent. Bottom line, unless you are BM haste is not really that great with the exception of rapid fire (and possibly Heroism/Bloodlust) which provides enough haste to make switch to a 1:1 rotation worth it.
Realistically, even though MT is not that great when compared head on to other options, it is still a better talent than IAotH for a Survival build. TotH, while obviously providing no dps increase, is still a very nice bonus to go with it too. Yes I agree FF is a great talent for two points but it's not so great for seven. Just my $0.02. Here is a raiding build I would recommand: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft If you really want to get IHM instead of efficiency. |
Each perk of any build could be talked about, each has its bonuses or some weakness. So I just went for talents that would be used as much time as possible. On end for SV is where to put last 7-8 points? IaotH+FF+Scatter / Barrage+rws+Scatter / TotH+MT+Readiness / TotH+Barrage+Scatter.
TotH, MT and RWS and Readiness are only ones here thats with you all the time no matter the situation and will work in your favor in those situations.
I would recommend 7/21/33 to hunters that have luxury of having DST or some pieces of haste gear. And to hunters that are new in shot rotations (and refuse to go BM). Maybe to hunters that have regular lag issues with ~400-500ms times. But for rest 0/20+/32+ is way to go, depends on your typical group and content you are doing. 0/20/41 is giving me pains on Kael, but it also saved 2 wipes at phase3 yesterday.
Best try Kael, p1-4(not good way to present build, but we are doing kael only last 14days): Wow Web Stats
Group: F.Druid, Shaman, 2xHunter, Paladin (had goa most of time, lotp was out of range mostly in p3 and not present in p1 at all)
Hm yeah maybe I was a bit presumptuous to recommend 7-21-33 to hunters just starting as survival, as the build's effectiveness truly depends heavily on your weaponspeed+rotation+hastes. Edited since survival isn't my specialty
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Originally Posted by Seipher
I would really question advising the 7/21/33 build. As has been mentioned before the value of haste to a MM or Survival hunter is at best questionable. It provides no benefit to the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 rotation will do less damage even if you switch to it with QS up. I have verified this for my own gear using Cheeky's spreadsheet however it could be somewhat gear dependent. Bottom line, unless you are BM haste is not really that great with the exception of rapid fire (and possibly Heroism/Bloodlust) which provides enough haste to make switch to a 1:1 rotation worth it.
Realistically, even though MT is not that great when compared head on to other options, it is still a better talent than IAotH for a Survival build. TotH, while obviously providing no dps increase, is still a very nice bonus to go with it too. Yes I agree FF is a great talent for two points but it's not so great for seven. Just my $0.02. Here is a raiding build I would recommand: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft If you really want to get IHM instead of efficiency. |
heres an example of a 1:1.5 rotaton:
auto/steady/multi/auto/steady/auto/steady/arcane/auto/steady/auto
The parts in bold will revieve the full benefit of haste. Its only the part of the rotation where you are squeezing 2 specials inbetween autos which wouldn't get the benefit from haste.
Its my belief that a MM or SV hunter with a slow(ish) ranged weapon would see a fairly good return from haste due the to large ammont of dead time between steady and auto.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by rudedog
What makes you think that haste provides no benefit to a 1:1.5 rotation? The way I see it, a good chunk of this rotation is made up of steady shot followed directly by auto which would recieve the full benefit of haste (unless you were using a super-fast ranged weapon).
heres an example of a 1:1.5 rotaton: auto/steady/multi/auto/steady/auto/steady/arcane/auto/steady/auto The parts in bold will revieve the full benefit of haste. Its only the part of the rotation where you are squeezing 2 specials inbetween autos which wouldn't get the benefit from haste. Its my belief that a MM or SV hunter with a slow(ish) ranged weapon would see a fairly good return from haste due the to large ammont of dead time between steady and auto. |
So while in your example haste will never "hurt" your dps, it in fact does, because the opportunity cost of getting IAoTH is giving up barrage or MT + Readines.
It's interesting, Cheeky's spreadsheet models IAoTH as dps loss compared to a 24/37 or 20/41 build, yet DST is modeled as a gain of 20 dps over the hourglass with the same builds. The spreadsheet uses a priority 1:1 rotation while DST is active and a 1:1.5 while it is not. I'm guessing some of the dps gain will be lost in user error switching between rotations, and personally I've never liked random haste effects, but since DST is sitting in my bank collecting dust, I'm going to give it a shot in raids.
With my gear the highest dps modeled survival build I found was 0/20/41 with DST replacing the hourglass, this is interesting considering readiness is not even modeled. Readiness is at least worth an extra rapid fire, maybe 2 --- probably allowing you get to 5 RFs in one boss fight (assuming a 10 minute battle)
The biggest problem I see is using 0/20/41 w/ a 1.1:5 rotation is only having 2/3 ToTH and no shadow priest... the mana situation could get really bad really quickly... if you get a shadow priest then it's all good
Last edited by Vasilii : 08/23/07 at 9:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
With my gear the highest dps modeled survival build I found was 0/20/41 with DST replacing the hourglass, this is interesting considering readiness is not even modeled. Readiness is at least worth an extra rapid fire, maybe 2 --- probably allowing you get to 5 RFs in one boss fight (assuming a 10 minute battle)
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Originally Posted by rudedog
heres an example of a 1:1.5 rotaton:
auto/steady/multi/auto/steady/auto/steady/arcane/auto/steady/auto The parts in bold will revieve the full benefit of haste. Its only the part of the rotation where you are squeezing 2 specials inbetween autos which wouldn't get the benefit from haste. Its my belief that a MM or SV hunter with a slow(ish) ranged weapon would see a fairly good return from haste due the to large ammont of dead time between steady and auto. |
I will add some modeling with numbers, lets say we have not hasted speed of auto to 2.4, steady to 1.3. I assume lag 0 and our reaction time instant.
0 auto
0 steady
1.3 steady
1.5 arcane
2.4 auto
<wait for GCD here>
3.0 steady begins
4.3 steady
4.8 auto
after some amount haste we have 1.1 steady, 2.0 auto
0.0 auto
0.0 steady
1.1 steady
1.5 arcane
2.0 auto
<wait for GCD here>
3.0 steady begins
4.1 steady
4.6 auto
All haste did made out full rotation just 0.2 seconds faster. Better results MM and Surv hunters will have if they switch to 1:1 rotation during bigger haste effects like rapid fire or DST.
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Originally Posted by rudedog
What makes you think that haste provides no benefit to a 1:1.5 rotation? The way I see it, a good chunk of this rotation is made up of steady shot followed directly by auto which would recieve the full benefit of haste (unless you were using a super-fast ranged weapon).
heres an example of a 1:1.5 rotaton: auto/steady/multi/auto/steady/auto/steady/arcane/auto/steady/auto The parts in bold will revieve the full benefit of haste. Its only the part of the rotation where you are squeezing 2 specials inbetween autos which wouldn't get the benefit from haste. Its my belief that a MM or SV hunter with a slow(ish) ranged weapon would see a fairly good return from haste due the to large ammont of dead time between steady and auto. |
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
Socketing not red gems you lose 20 AGI from 4 gems to fit to metagem requirements. Good thing, that 12 from metagem and 4+4 from socket bonuses from [Ranger-General's Chestguard] and [Void Reaver Greaves] equals this.
So overall fitting socket requirements may be good thing from gained other stats. |
So in theory you will loose 20 - 8 agi to get a +12 agi and crit damage meta working, and have some crit bonus and stamina for " free".
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Originally Posted by Zuktar
I dont know if anyone said this already, but you can use 2 * Jagged Talasite (4 agi + stamina) and it will count as two yellow AND two blue gems. I am fairly certain this works for other secondary colours as well, ie: 2 * orange gems count for 2 * red AND 2 * yellow etc.
So in theory you will loose 20 - 8 agi to get a +12 agi and crit damage meta working, and have some crit bonus and stamina for " free". |
More generally:
I've been trying to re-arrange my gear for awhile now. I'm at 800 Agility unbuffed, and I can get as much as 846 with gear I already have, but not without giving up too much of some other stat (often hit rating, believe it or not). A Belt of Deep Shadow, once that pattern drops for us, should let me swap out the stuff to break 850 Agility, so I'll have around 1k raid buffed. In the meantime, I think my RAP has suffered from my Agility obsession.
I do good DPS in most raids I'm in, even when filling in for more progressed runs. Of course, this is competing against other players on Earthen Ring (US), a server not well known for having superb raiders, to put it politely. Until recently, I was always ahead of the BM and MM Hunters I've grouped with. This is partly due to gear (our BM Hunter was very, very unlucky in KZ runs, whereas I have almost everything I want except for Aran's cape, Garona's ring, and the Hourglass from BM).
I do make more use of haste than most Survival Hunters, judging by this thread. What I usually to do is something like this:
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Bladefist's, Multi, Rapid Fire
Auto, Steady -- until Rapid fire wears off, then Abacus of Violent Odds
Auto, Steady -- until Abacus wears off
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Multi, Auto, Steady -- until Abacus or Rapid fire are on cooldown again
But that's all controlled haste. I tried a 5/20/36 build, and I didn't react to QuickShots well enough to keep it. MT seems okay, but I often wonder if I could spend those points better somewhere else. I don't use Multi as often as I would if I had better lag/framerate, so Barrage doesn't seem like a good choice for me.
In many ways, I have a compromise shot rotation. It's something I can do with my usual 300+ms of lag and (since the 2.1 patch) my whole screen freezing up every 5-15 seconds. I suspect lag and the periodic freezes are my main loss of DPS these days.
I have mostly KZ gear and am in a regular group that is just starting SSC. I am often grouped with the other Hunters (one of each flavor) and a Shadow Priest. I rarely have LotP or GoA. Also, our Paladins seem to value Salv > Might > Wisdom for Hunters instead of Kings > Might > Wisdom for reasons that have never made sense to me.
This all adds up to having somewhat unpredictable DPS. I'll have 700 one week and 950 the next. When I have low lag, a good group, the right buffs, and not too many screen lockups or weird UI issues (like Autoshots stopping until I go out of combat and re-start), I'm very happy with my personal DPS.
Debuff on combatlog subject to closer distance for logging !!?
Hi there
Does any one experience a strange behavior with the combatlog debuff logging?
Cause on our last Lurker down (Wow Web Stats), I’ve been unable to see the debuff Expose Weakness on the Lurker while I can see it on the adds (I checked the whole combatlog manually to be sure).
I’m standing in an external platform with another hunter (we are in charge of trapping one add while killing the other).
Does that mean that the debuffs logging mechanics on the combatlog are subject to closer distance!!?
PS: I’m having all range extended to 200 on my config file.
Thks in advance.
Does any one experience a strange behavior with the combatlog debuff logging?
Cause on our last Lurker down (Wow Web Stats), I’ve been unable to see the debuff Expose Weakness on the Lurker while I can see it on the adds (I checked the whole combatlog manually to be sure).
I’m standing in an external platform with another hunter (we are in charge of trapping one add while killing the other).
Does that mean that the debuffs logging mechanics on the combatlog are subject to closer distance!!?
PS: I’m having all range extended to 200 on my config file.
Thks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Zuktar
I dont know if anyone said this already, but you can use 2 * Jagged Talasite (4 agi + stamina) and it will count as two yellow AND two blue gems. I am fairly certain this works for other secondary colours as well, ie: 2 * orange gems count for 2 * red AND 2 * yellow etc.
So in theory you will loose 20 - 8 agi to get a +12 agi and crit damage meta working, and have some crit bonus and stamina for " free". |
Comparsion using blue quality gems:
8 agi (delicate living ruby), 4agi/4hit (glinting noble topaz), 4agi/6sta (shadow nightseye) +4agi socket bonus, total 20agi/4hit/6sta + 1yellow,blue for meta requirements vs
8agi x 2 (delicate living ruby), + 4cr/6sta, total 16agi/4cr/6sta + 1yellow,blue for meta vs
8agi x 3, total 24 agi.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Younsan
Hi there
Does any one experience a strange behavior with the combatlog debuff logging? Cause on our last Lurker down (Wow Web Stats), I’ve been unable to see the debuff Expose Weakness on the Lurker while I can see it on the adds (I checked the whole combatlog manually to be sure). I’m standing in an external platform with another hunter (we are in charge of trapping one add while killing the other). Does that mean that the debuffs logging mechanics on the combatlog are subject to closer distance!!? PS: I’m having all range extended to 200 on my config file. Thks in advance. |
You might want to start having multiple people logging your fights so that they can be uploaded simultaneously to get rid of some of the error. Aside from that, I could not tell you what's going on with WWS.
Last edited by Kaber : 08/27/07 at 6:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kaber
We've been having issues with our combat logs for WWS as well. Not the same issue mind you, but combat is showing up as shortened and some abilities have not been registering at all. We had a Gruul kill that came out with only 2 million damage done with the starting Misdirect showing in the log and random chunks missing here and there (8 million DPS worth was missing).
You might want to start having multiple people logging your fights so that they can be uploaded simultaneously to get rid of some of the error. Aside from that, I could not tell you what's going on with WWS. |
But my problem is combatlog not WWS, as I said the debuff are not registered on my combatlog, which is strange.
Younsan, try using Karthas's Hunter Timers, it will show you the times EW debuff is up as well as others...
On another point, I'm finding that DST + IAOTH (4/5) is working well for me , DPS has been good so far and timing it has been a bit difficult but using the simple Auto,Steady Macro when they both proc has worked great
On another point, I'm finding that DST + IAOTH (4/5) is working well for me , DPS has been good so far and timing it has been a bit difficult but using the simple Auto,Steady Macro when they both proc has worked great
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Originally Posted by Jemsky
Younsan, try using Karthas's Hunter Timers, it will show you the times EW debuff is up as well as others...
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You can't really count the number of procs by only looking at the debuffs. It can proc while already active, refreshing the timer.
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Originally Posted by Lactose
You can't really count the number of procs by only looking at the debuffs. It can proc while already active, refreshing the timer.
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It's a bug. Debuffs seem to have a range that is unaffected by current 'extend log range' commands.
I ran into this issue writing an Expose Weakness Uptime mod. Gave up in the the end. The mod works fine but not when you're too far away for debuffs to be logged. Hence the mod is useless for now.
I ran into this issue writing an Expose Weakness Uptime mod. Gave up in the the end. The mod works fine but not when you're too far away for debuffs to be logged. Hence the mod is useless for now.
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
It's a bug. Debuffs seem to have a range that is unaffected by current 'extend log range' commands.
I ran into this issue writing an Expose Weakness Uptime mod. Gave up in the the end. The mod works fine but not when you're too far away for debuffs to be logged. Hence the mod is useless for now. |
It could be a range reduction with the arena patch that prevent players from to seeing their opponents in the Combat Log before the combat start!!
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
survival
that's a lot of mana regen from toth.
Last edited by intrepidos : 09/03/07 at 5:47 AM.
I just have a few questions/comments after looking over this thread...
I do not understand how people justify getting 3/3 barrage and 2 points into some other talent over 5/5 IAotH. I was just curious how spending these 5 points not in IAotH is more beneficial to your role as a survival hunter. Also, as I sifted through this thread I noticed there was a list of potential gear for a survival hunter posted on one of the earlier pages. In this list there was no showing of Scaled Greaves of the Marksman. I thought of these legs to be at least on par with Void Reaver Leggings and I am curious as to why they were not added. Thanks for listening.
I do not understand how people justify getting 3/3 barrage and 2 points into some other talent over 5/5 IAotH. I was just curious how spending these 5 points not in IAotH is more beneficial to your role as a survival hunter. Also, as I sifted through this thread I noticed there was a list of potential gear for a survival hunter posted on one of the earlier pages. In this list there was no showing of Scaled Greaves of the Marksman. I thought of these legs to be at least on par with Void Reaver Leggings and I am curious as to why they were not added. Thanks for listening.
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Originally Posted by atalanta
I do not understand how people justify getting 3/3 barrage and 2 points into some other talent over 5/5 IAotH. I was just curious how spending these 5 points not in IAotH is more beneficial to your role as a survival hunter.
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If you use Cheeky's sheet with a Max Special rotation, you will see that there are other talents that you can choose which will offer more dps for a Surv build.
I am retarded and cannot get the spreadsheet to work properly. Does anyone have a link to a post or know the numbers on IAotH vs. Barrage?
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Originally Posted by atalanta
I am retarded and cannot get the spreadsheet to work properly. Does anyone have a link to a post or know the numbers on IAotH vs. Barrage?
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(unbuffed against 0 armor target)
5/20/36 - 1409 total dps
0/23/38 (barrage & 2/5 MT) - 1419 total dps
0/20/41 (5/5 MT, no barrage) - 1429 total dps
The point is, not only is IAotH a bit difficult to manage with a 1:1.5 cycle, but the talent points can also be better spent in the MM or Surv trees.
As far as the part about being retarded and not getting the spreadsheet to work... Did you enable the macros? You might have to change the security level on Excel.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ressurecting Badge of Tenacity theorycrafting
Ressurecting some old posts from page 5 here:
First of all i dont know if the above average gain is correct (25 agility). I'm assuming the normal modifiers apply on the on use effect as well?
If so it will be (with LR and Kings):
120/6 = 6
150*1.15*1.1/6 = 31,625 agility
31,625/40 = 0,79% crit
31,625*0.25 = 7,9ap EW contribution
If the passive benefit can be expressed as above the overall benefit would be:
38,9 ap
0,79% crit
- Along with a 20 sec raidwide ap bonus of 47,4ap from expose weakness
Now i havent had any luck with either the DST or the Tsunami talisman, so im currently using bloodlust broch and abacus of violent odds. Switching abacus for tenacity, assuming the above is correct, would produce:
38,9 - 64 + 260/12 = -46,76ap
+0.79% crit
+7,9ap raidbuff
With some creative trinket swapping the downtime of having no useful passive trinket stats can be brought down a little, but this seems highly situational so i didnt include anything about that.
As im far from the mathemathical level of genius seen among other theorycrafters, i'd like someone better qualified than myself to look over the numbers and mayhaps tweak and crunch them a bit.
Opinions?
| How would [Badge of Tenacity] work with Expose Weakness? |
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I don't think it could refresh the proc due to the value difference. It'd overwrite the highest value of the buff currently active, and when tenacity runs out it wil be unable to refresh it until the expose weakness run out. Over time it works out to about 25 agility. Quite a nice find actually. 2 Minute cooldown. 120/20 = 6 150/6 = 25 Agility Added to the list, along with the greens. |
If so it will be (with LR and Kings):
120/6 = 6
150*1.15*1.1/6 = 31,625 agility
31,625/40 = 0,79% crit
31,625*0.25 = 7,9ap EW contribution
If the passive benefit can be expressed as above the overall benefit would be:
38,9 ap
0,79% crit
- Along with a 20 sec raidwide ap bonus of 47,4ap from expose weakness
Now i havent had any luck with either the DST or the Tsunami talisman, so im currently using bloodlust broch and abacus of violent odds. Switching abacus for tenacity, assuming the above is correct, would produce:
38,9 - 64 + 260/12 = -46,76ap
+0.79% crit
+7,9ap raidbuff
With some creative trinket swapping the downtime of having no useful passive trinket stats can be brought down a little, but this seems highly situational so i didnt include anything about that.
As im far from the mathemathical level of genius seen among other theorycrafters, i'd like someone better qualified than myself to look over the numbers and mayhaps tweak and crunch them a bit.
Opinions?
Last edited by Ondskaben : 09/14/07 at 12:31 PM.
Zurgat:
Many of the items in your gear list need to be updated, as 10agi gems are only available for red sockets. Blue and yellow sockets have a maximum of 5.
Many of the items in your gear list need to be updated, as 10agi gems are only available for red sockets. Blue and yellow sockets have a maximum of 5.
You can use red gems in blue and yellow sockets.
You can put any color gem in any socket. The socket colors are only meaningful for the item bonus.
Color me noob. Thanks.
As long as one is aware of what they're doing in a raid, there should be no problem going from a 1.5:1 to a 1:1 as QS procs. In fact, it's a good dps increase and very mana efficent.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
So I'm a hunter
This much is obvious after all I'm a troll (racial == style!), but that's not the point of my post. I'm in a guild currently raiding TK and SSC (we've killed everything up to Kael'thass) and while I enjoy being a hunter, I've gotten tired of MM, but am not all that fond of BM. For now, the raid is slightly caster heavy (60-70%?), and everytime I try to go survival I get dropped from raids. When I asked about justifying my spot (since I add more than the MM hunter), I was told to find the hard math.
I realize this is alot of work, (I think it involves me checking our raid makeup for 2-3 weeks to see how much physical dps shows up and how often I crit and what my bonus ends up being) but I wonder where should I start or if anyone has any tips on how to go about this. I'm normally casual, but I've been reading this place since 'why some don't get it' and like to put in the math to optimize my character.
Also, EW seems like an obvious choice but I do less damage personally as survival. I would like to hear ideas to improve surv personal dps.
I realize this is alot of work, (I think it involves me checking our raid makeup for 2-3 weeks to see how much physical dps shows up and how often I crit and what my bonus ends up being) but I wonder where should I start or if anyone has any tips on how to go about this. I'm normally casual, but I've been reading this place since 'why some don't get it' and like to put in the math to optimize my character.
Also, EW seems like an obvious choice but I do less damage personally as survival. I would like to hear ideas to improve surv personal dps.
Last edited by Wunlastri : 09/17/07 at 10:19 AM. Reason: because I can't type for salt
For DPS gain, [Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 and onwards.
As for uptime, that's pretty easy to calculate as well, and with maxed Expose Weakness you can be fairly certain it's up at least 90-95% of the time, as long as you're just attacking the target and not doing random stuff.
As for uptime, that's pretty easy to calculate as well, and with maxed Expose Weakness you can be fairly certain it's up at least 90-95% of the time, as long as you're just attacking the target and not doing random stuff.
Just some quick pointers:
Calculate your EW chance of refreshing using your shots per 7 seconds and 1 - (1-CRIT)^SHOTS. This should approximate uptime.
Calculate your EW bonus AP and multiply it by uptime for an effective AP added to each melee.
Download class dps spreadsheets for your melee dps. Download threat per second spreadsheets for your tanks. Plug in their numbers and then modify them by your EW buff to get the dps/tps added by EW.
Calculate your EW chance of refreshing using your shots per 7 seconds and 1 - (1-CRIT)^SHOTS. This should approximate uptime.
Calculate your EW bonus AP and multiply it by uptime for an effective AP added to each melee.
Download class dps spreadsheets for your melee dps. Download threat per second spreadsheets for your tanks. Plug in their numbers and then modify them by your EW buff to get the dps/tps added by EW.
Lactose; the whole thread shows how to be a good survival hunter, but they don't show how to present the evidence to others. I'll still dip about it though.
Zure; Where can I find these spreadsheets and thank you very much.
Also, thoughts on Mortal Shots vs Master Tactician? This isn't my current build, just looking at it.
note; endurance is not iaoth because im being mana cautious.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Zure; Where can I find these spreadsheets and thank you very much.
Also, thoughts on Mortal Shots vs Master Tactician? This isn't my current build, just looking at it.
note; endurance is not iaoth because im being mana cautious.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Lactose; the whole thread shows how to be a good survival hunter, but they don't show how to present the evidence to others. I'll still dip about it though.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Also, thoughts on Mortal Shots vs Master Tactician?
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Mortal shots are lot better. For my gear one point in MS adds 19 dps, but MT 9. MS adds about 1.5%-2% to your DPS per point (of course depending from crit chance).
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
This much is obvious after all I'm a troll (racial == style!), but that's not the point of my post. I'm in a guild currently raiding TK and SSC (we've killed everything up to Kael'thass) and while I enjoy being a hunter, I've gotten tired of MM, but am not all that fond of BM. For now, the raid is slightly caster heavy (60-70%?), and everytime I try to go survival I get dropped from raids. When I asked about justifying my spot (since I add more than the MM hunter), I was told to find the hard math.
I realize this is alot of work, (I think it involves me checking our raid makeup for 2-3 weeks to see how much physical dps shows up and how often I crit and what my bonus ends up being) but I wonder where should I start or if anyone has any tips on how to go about this. I'm normally casual, but I've been reading this place since 'why some don't get it' and like to put in the math to optimize my character. Also, EW seems like an obvious choice but I do less damage personally as survival. I would like to hear ideas to improve surv personal dps. |
And 5/5 mortal shot is a must for a hunter, even moreso the case being survival.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi guys.
Recently my guild has been struggling with DPS issues. I took a few WWS parses recently and spent a long time going through each player and suggesting improvements, weeding out bad specs and getting slackers to enchant their gear etc...
We've already seen a good improvement in DPS which is great but as you can probably guess by me posting in this thread, I'm having difficulties with a survivalist hunter.
Now I've got nothing against this spec, its just I've got no experience with it. I've read through this thread fully now but still have a few questions. The guy seems to know what hes doing but a few problems arose:
1) He has pretty low personal DPS. Now I know your spec isn't reknowned for its high personal DPS in favour of the raid buff but even with that considered this seems low (from the dps stats posted in this thread)
2) At least 2 pieces of his gear don't have any agility on at all (Prince ring + T4 shoulders). I put it to him that he'd be better off swapping the shoulders for your D3 shoulders with 2x+8 agi gems but he won't hear about going from epic to blue. Am I right or is it worth the shoulders even though they have no agility? To note would be he would lose the 4 T4 bonus if he dropped the shoulders.
Also tied in with this point is that I don't think he has enough agility to pull this spec off. Figures thrown about in this thread seem to indicate an 800 agi unbuffed as the required agi for this spec. Hes about 700.
3) He is adamant that Aimed shot is the best shot to restart his shot cycle after hes had to move (the fight was gruul so moving from shatter/cave in). Now this goes againt everything I've read on hunters in this thread and the BM thread and it would seem to me he could get an auto and steady in place of the aimed. Again, whats the general opinion on this?
His armoury:
The Armory
The WWS for him:
Plavalaguna - WWS
His stats (that he posted in our priv forum thread):
Thanks for any replies.
Recently my guild has been struggling with DPS issues. I took a few WWS parses recently and spent a long time going through each player and suggesting improvements, weeding out bad specs and getting slackers to enchant their gear etc...
We've already seen a good improvement in DPS which is great but as you can probably guess by me posting in this thread, I'm having difficulties with a survivalist hunter.
Now I've got nothing against this spec, its just I've got no experience with it. I've read through this thread fully now but still have a few questions. The guy seems to know what hes doing but a few problems arose:
1) He has pretty low personal DPS. Now I know your spec isn't reknowned for its high personal DPS in favour of the raid buff but even with that considered this seems low (from the dps stats posted in this thread)
2) At least 2 pieces of his gear don't have any agility on at all (Prince ring + T4 shoulders). I put it to him that he'd be better off swapping the shoulders for your D3 shoulders with 2x+8 agi gems but he won't hear about going from epic to blue. Am I right or is it worth the shoulders even though they have no agility? To note would be he would lose the 4 T4 bonus if he dropped the shoulders.
Also tied in with this point is that I don't think he has enough agility to pull this spec off. Figures thrown about in this thread seem to indicate an 800 agi unbuffed as the required agi for this spec. Hes about 700.
3) He is adamant that Aimed shot is the best shot to restart his shot cycle after hes had to move (the fight was gruul so moving from shatter/cave in). Now this goes againt everything I've read on hunters in this thread and the BM thread and it would seem to me he could get an auto and steady in place of the aimed. Again, whats the general opinion on this?
His armoury:
The Armory
The WWS for him:
Plavalaguna - WWS
His stats (that he posted in our priv forum thread):
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I have unbuffed 700 agi on 33% crit chance. 1850 attack power resulting in 290 dps. That raid - it was by the way only - Expose Weakness - 214 ap and additionally Improved Hunters Mark - 110 ap = 324 ap buff bonus. Equipping Beast Lord's Mantle - hooray. Increase of 4 attack power in - expose weakness PvP gear? no way. Blizzards system is boring. |
Thanks for any replies.
Last edited by Vaccine : 09/22/07 at 7:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Vaccine
Hi guys.
Recently my guild has been struggling with DPS issues. I took a few WWS parses recently and spent a long time going through each player and suggesting improvements, weeding out bad specs and getting slackers to enchant their gear etc... We've already seen a good improvement in DPS which is great but as you can probably guess by me posting in this thread, I'm having difficulties with a survivalist hunter. Now I've got nothing against this spec, its just I've got no experience with it. I've read through this thread fully now but still have a few questions. The guy seems to know what hes doing but a few problems arose: 1) He has pretty low personal DPS. Now I know your spec isn't reknowned for its high personal DPS in favour of the raid buff but even with that considered this seems low (from the dps stats posted in this thread) 2) At least 2 pieces of his gear don't have any agility on at all (Prince ring + T4 shoulders). I put it to him that he'd be better off swapping the shoulders for your D3 shoulders with 2x+8 agi gems but he won't hear about going from epic to blue. Am I right or is it worth the shoulders even though they have no agility? To note would be he would lose the 4 T4 bonus if he dropped the shoulders. Also tied in with this point is that I don't think he has enough agility to pull this spec off. Figures thrown about in this thread seem to indicate an 800 agi unbuffed as the required agi for this spec. Hes about 700. 3) He is adamant that Aimed shot is the best shot to restart his shot cycle after hes had to move (the fight was gruul so moving from shatter/cave in). Now this goes againt everything I've read on hunters in this thread and the BM thread and it would seem to me he could get an auto and steady in place of the aimed. Again, whats the general opinion on this? His armoury: The Armory The WWS for him: Plavalaguna - WWS His stats (that he posted in our priv forum thread): Thanks for any replies. |
There are a few things he can do to improve his dps (well at least on Gruul):
1) From that Gruul WWS, it seems he doesnt use his pet whatsoever. Make him use it and call him back to his side if there's a cave in.
2) What aspect is he using? If he's using AotV make him swap to AotH and use mana pots, at least on DPS fights. If he's tight on mana on Gruul, he can always swap when he's getting Grasped and Stoned, that should give him a few seconds of mana regen I guess.
3) Serpent sting is a no-no. Its a lot of mana for very poor damage (minor detail, was only 1% of his total damage). Aimed shot should only be used for misdirection (i.e. max 3-4 on Gruul), since its very mana intensive and delays your autoshot too much.
4) He's not in a "buffed" group - SP or Feral druid or Shaman or BM/MM hunter, have you considered this while comparing his DPS to other members of the raid? And as such, have you considered giving him a spot in one of those groups?
5) Is he using agility pots + mana oils + buff food on boss fights? Make him do so.
6) Gear-wise, I would take other items for his shoulders and ring items that have at least some agility (BL shoulders + Pathfinder's band are good for example, they'd give him a good +50agi while losing a bit of crit and hit possibly). The 4pc T4 bonus is pretty useless to be honest, and he isn't even using multishot in his rotation on Gruul.
7) Give him BoMight instead of BoSalv next time... FD should be fine on a boss fight like Gruul. Giving his pet BoMight is also a good idea - if he actually uses it...
Thats about all I can think of for the moment, hope it helps
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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I have unbuffed 700 agi on 33% crit chance. 1850 attack power resulting in 290 dps. That raid - it was by the way only - Expose Weakness - 214 ap and additionally Improved Hunters Mark - 110 ap = 324 ap buff bonus. Equipping Beast Lord's Mantle - hooray. Increase of 4 attack power in - expose weakness PvP gear? no way. Blizzards system is boring. |
12*1.15*1.1 = 15.18 agility
15.18*0.25 = 3.795 EW contribution
19/22.1 + 15.18/40 = 1.24% crit
15.18+3.795+44 = 62.975 ap
Beast Lord Mantle with the same gem setup:
37*1.15*1.1 = 46.805 agility
46.805*0.25 = 11.7 EW contribution
46.805/40 = 1.17% crit
46.805+11.7+34 = 92.505 ap
All in all equipping the blue shoulders instead of the T4 ones, he would gain 29.53ap and lose only 0.07% crit while increasing the raid buff with 7.9ap in a raid environment.
As the poster above stated he should lose the ring of a thousand marks as well and get a proper agility oriented ring instead. Lastly, i see he is wearing belt of the black eagle. As survival he should be wearing belt of deep shadow.
Edit:
He should remember to see past the stats on an item and see the stats with lightning reflexes and blessing of kings scaling on top. Agility is worth more than it seems, especially as survival. In general he should be looking at each point of agility as being ~1.58ap and ~0.03% crit when buffed with blessing of kings.
Last edited by Ondskaben : 09/22/07 at 9:37 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Vaccine
1) He has pretty low personal DPS. Now I know your spec isn't reknowned for its high personal DPS in favour of the raid buff but even with that considered this seems low (from the dps stats posted in this thread)
2) At least 2 pieces of his gear don't have any agility on at all (Prince ring + T4 shoulders). I put it to him that he'd be better off swapping the shoulders for your D3 shoulders with 2x+8 agi gems but he won't hear about going from epic to blue. Am I right or is it worth the shoulders even though they have no agility? To note would be he would lose the 4 T4 bonus if he dropped the shoulders. Also tied in with this point is that I don't think he has enough agility to pull this spec off. Figures thrown about in this thread seem to indicate an 800 agi unbuffed as the required agi for this spec. Hes about 700. 3) He is adamant that Aimed shot is the best shot to restart his shot cycle after hes had to move (the fight was gruul so moving from shatter/cave in). Now this goes againt everything I've read on hunters in this thread and the BM thread and it would seem to me he could get an auto and steady in place of the aimed. Again, whats the general opinion on this? His armoury: The Armory The WWS for him: Plavalaguna - WWS |
1) Personal DPS
As other have pointed out, there is no pet listed there. Either his pet isn't being merged or he isn't using one. Even for a Survival Hunter, the pet is worth 100-175 DPS most fights. So he definitely should be using a pet. And for any fair comparison with other DPS classes, the pet needs to show up in WWS.
Ask him what consumables he's using. I generally use Major Agility, Mageblood, Mana Oil, and Warp Burgers, although this varies a bit from one fight to another.
He does not appear to be using any mana potions. That also makes a very big difference to Hunters of all kinds. Fel Mana pots are best, if those are available.
2) Gear
The ring and T4 shoulders aren't terrible for a Survival Hunter. In fact, I used those shoulders for almost a month (but I never did see any better alternatives drop). Survival Hunters need high crit as well as high Agility to keep Expose Weakness up. But if he has the Beast Lord Mantle, that is a better item for him. I admit, it doesn't look as cool as T4...
Edit: Also, Survival Hunters tend to have mostly +Agilty gems and ignore the set bonuses (unless it's 1 red, 1 other and a +Agility set bonus where a hybrid gem is not an Agility loss). He could improve his Agility some by using more red gems.
3) Aimed Shot...
This is generally a bad thing to see in a Hunter's WWS. I use it periodically for Misdirects on threat-sensitive fights, but you do NOT want Aimed Shot in your regular rotation. It is not a "good opener" as I've heard many Hunters claim.
Serpent Sting is also a waste of mana most of the time (although it can be useful right before a ground slam to keep up a little DPS).
And he doesn't seem to be using Multi-Shot at all. One of the big things that has improved my personal DPS is using Multi-Shot more often.
For comparison, my own stats from our last Gruul kill:
Nyidi - WWS
Even with a Shadow Priest this run, I had to use 2 Fel Mana pots.
Note how my hits are spread out more between Steady, Arcane, and Multt-Shot.
Note how I have a pet with a fairly high DPS time.
On the other hand, your Hunter beat my DPS time by a good margin. We use a "safe spot" strategy on Gruul, which can reduce DPS time a little, but it is something I clearly need to work on. And my pet may have been facing Gruul part of that run, given the miss rates.
Last edited by affamu : 09/22/07 at 3:35 PM.
I was wondering how good would 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot be? since 5 sec CD in a 1:1.5 rotation it would match it perfectly. Anyone has done some testing or something?
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
I was wondering how good would 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot be? since 5 sec CD in a 1:1.5 rotation it would match it perfectly. Anyone has done some testing or something?
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For SV 5/5 Imp Arcane means saccing one of several big dps boosts
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
For SV 5/5 Imp Arcane means saccing one of several big dps boosts
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I have 5/5 imp. arcane shot for some time now, and I like it.
With this talent, I can shot an arcane every two autoshots (instead of 3), it's a great dps boost.
My shot rotation:
Auto
- steady, arcane
Auto
- steady (or multi-shot if avaible)
Auto
- steady, arcane
and so on ...
I still use multishot. Most players seems to use multi after a steady shot. I perfer to replace the steady shot in the middle of my rotation by a multi, to avoid delaying the next auto.
Link to my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I suppose my current spec is ok, and the only talent I really miss is rapid killing. But my overall dps, and my ability to do burst damage has improved a bit, while TotH help with the insane mana consumption.
Before that I was using this spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm).
Last edited by Thalestris : 09/24/07 at 6:26 AM. Reason: added link to my current spec.
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Originally Posted by Thalestris
My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm).
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That's right, but Arcane shot can be partially resisted, like a spell.
I'm not sure how it works exactly, it seems to be related to the hit rating but I couldn't find exact numbers.
Also the extra damage from curse of shadow is great, as Arcane Shot is big part of my damage, it's a nice dps boost.
I'm not sure how it works exactly, it seems to be related to the hit rating but I couldn't find exact numbers.
Also the extra damage from curse of shadow is great, as Arcane Shot is big part of my damage, it's a nice dps boost.
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Originally Posted by Thalestris
That's right, but Arcane shot can be partially resisted, like a spell.
I'm not sure how it works exactly, it seems to be related to the hit rating but I couldn't find exact numbers. Also the extra damage from curse of shadow is great, as Arcane Shot is big part of my damage, it's a nice dps boost. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Thalestris
Could you be more precise please ?
I have 5/5 imp. arcane shot for some time now, and I like it. With this talent, I can shot an arcane every two autoshots (instead of 3), it's a great dps boost. My shot rotation: Auto - steady, arcane Auto - steady (or multi-shot if avaible) Auto - steady, arcane and so on ... I still use multishot. Most players seems to use multi after a steady shot. I perfer to replace the steady shot in the middle of my rotation by a multi, to avoid delaying the next auto. Link to my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I suppose my current spec is ok, and the only talent I really miss is rapid killing. But my overall dps, and my ability to do burst damage has improved a bit, while TotH help with the insane mana consumption. Before that I was using this spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm). |
Im missing how this is a dps boost over a normal rotation like this with Master Tact spec'd:
Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Doing that rotation I get 1000dps on Dr Boom in similar gear. Putting into Cheeky's sheet I get a 44 dps drop too. Am I missing something?
Something else to consider, you cant stick in a multi in the sequence right after an arcane without really getting screwed by the GCD. Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Multi doesnt work.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 09/24/07 at 6:08 PM.
Thalestris, going over builds real quick it looks like 5/5 imp. arcane shot will mostly affect the end of the survival tree. Assuming you go for barrage, SS, and GftT still, you'll no longer be able to max out TotH, so something like 2/3 TotH and 2/3 EW seems possible, with little dps loss. Also, if you normally went for RWS over TotH, then you wouldn't be able to put as many points into that.
So overall it looks like you're going to take a small dps hit in a couple places, but if you're really noticing a large benefit to your shot rotation by the lowered cd, it wouldn't be anything I would fret about.
So overall it looks like you're going to take a small dps hit in a couple places, but if you're really noticing a large benefit to your shot rotation by the lowered cd, it wouldn't be anything I would fret about.
Thanks for your answers
Actually I made this build to try to make the most out the talon of Al'ar. But it's still very bad even if the buff if up 100% of the time.
On the other hand, all my GCDs are fully used and there is no 'dead space' in my rotation. If I don't mess up I'm always under the GCD. There is no wasted time between shots, and I don't delay autoshots much. That's why I like it ... it 'fits' well to the hunter mecanisms.
Auto/steady/arcane/auto/multi/auto is a valid sequence of shots.
Even with 200ms ping, it won't delay any of the autoshots. If you replace multi by steady, the last autoshot will be delayed a bit. That's why I use this sequence when multi is not on cooldown.
I don't have WWS reports to show tho. I see bigger dps numbers on recount (I hit 950 dps on Lurker for the first time during our last SSC clean). It could de bue to my recent gear upgrades, hard to tell.
When I switched to 5/5 Impr. Arcane, I expected to see a dps drop, but it's not the case.
I think it happens mostly because I use more damaging shots in the same span of time. That means more mana used as well, but with TotH 3/3 and my high crit rate (a little less than 39% with only elixirs and blessings, 44% with feral aura) I use less mana pots than before for a overall better dps output. I didn't have TotH in my last build (I went for barrage and RWS 3/3) and it makes a huge difference.
I don't claim 5/5 ias is better than anything else. But it seems to be a very viable option in raids, while many players consider Impr. Arcane as a "pvp only" talent.
Actually I made this build to try to make the most out the talon of Al'ar. But it's still very bad even if the buff if up 100% of the time.
On the other hand, all my GCDs are fully used and there is no 'dead space' in my rotation. If I don't mess up I'm always under the GCD. There is no wasted time between shots, and I don't delay autoshots much. That's why I like it ... it 'fits' well to the hunter mecanisms.
Auto/steady/arcane/auto/multi/auto is a valid sequence of shots.
Even with 200ms ping, it won't delay any of the autoshots. If you replace multi by steady, the last autoshot will be delayed a bit. That's why I use this sequence when multi is not on cooldown.
I don't have WWS reports to show tho. I see bigger dps numbers on recount (I hit 950 dps on Lurker for the first time during our last SSC clean). It could de bue to my recent gear upgrades, hard to tell.
When I switched to 5/5 Impr. Arcane, I expected to see a dps drop, but it's not the case.
I think it happens mostly because I use more damaging shots in the same span of time. That means more mana used as well, but with TotH 3/3 and my high crit rate (a little less than 39% with only elixirs and blessings, 44% with feral aura) I use less mana pots than before for a overall better dps output. I didn't have TotH in my last build (I went for barrage and RWS 3/3) and it makes a huge difference.
I don't claim 5/5 ias is better than anything else. But it seems to be a very viable option in raids, while many players consider Impr. Arcane as a "pvp only" talent.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Hi guys,
I'm looking for some experienced eyes to analyze our WWS for some recent runs, as well as my armory profile for any advice that can help up my personal DPS.
I first started raiding survival with a 0/24/37 (3/3 ToTT and EW along with 3/3 Imp Barrage + Scatter Shot), however quickly switched to my current spec, with the idea that using Readiness during trash mobs allows for 2x Rapid Fire (on average, it'll take 2-3 minutes between our trash mob clears, so I can almost always have a Abacus activation up as well as a Rapid Fire activation up during fights).
Current spec: The Armory
Important to note: I believe my base agility is 768 (off the top of my head), logged out with Mark of the Wild on.
WWS Logs:
Wow Web Stats - Fathom Lord Karathess kill and trash (I have more DPS this attempt due to having GoA totems and Leader of the Pack buff about 90% of the raid, though this has only happened once or twice ever in our raids).
Wow Web Stats - Morogrim Tidewalker kill and Al'ar attempts
Wow Web Stats - Morogrim Tidewalker kill and Fathom Lord Karathess attempts
I've noticed I've averaged around 680 - 690 DPS since I've switched to my current spec (about 3 weeks now) and I'm trying valiantly to push higher then that, without sacrificing too much of any other base stat, or my contributions to the raid in terms of Expose Weakness.
Some other info;
-I attempt to use a 1/1:5 rotation, alternating between Arcane and Multi Shot, though the majority of the time it is Arcane because Multi Shot is not a feasible choice (usually due to crowd controlled mobs). I say attempt because I know just from tendency, I have a bad habit to hit both special shots when they're up and when I can safely use both shots (such on boss fights).
-I use AoH 99% of the time on trash. Boss fights will have AoV up for almost all of the right, save the DPS zerg's and we need to squeeze out all DPS that we can (such as Morogrim's Grouble spam phase).
-The only macro I use is a vanilla steady shot/auto shot macro with a castsequence=3 modifier; everything else is manually weaved in.
-I very, very rarely have class party buffs in terms of FI, Leader of the Pack, Shaman totems, etc. Our usual raid schema has the Shaman with 3 Rogues and a DPS warrior, and the Hunters spread out across different parties. It is common to have a Shadow Priest in our group, though that luxury seems to dissipate during boss fights *lol*.
EDIT: I use a cat with Bite/Claw on auto use, and manually hit Kill Command when it's up and not on cooldown (probably important to mention that, I blame lack of coffee *lol*)
Any other information that is needed I'd be happy to give, and thanks for any insight or advice that can be offered about shot rotations, gear, gems, or enchantments that can help me boost my sustained raid DPS for 700+ on a regular basis.
Cheers
I'm looking for some experienced eyes to analyze our WWS for some recent runs, as well as my armory profile for any advice that can help up my personal DPS.
I first started raiding survival with a 0/24/37 (3/3 ToTT and EW along with 3/3 Imp Barrage + Scatter Shot), however quickly switched to my current spec, with the idea that using Readiness during trash mobs allows for 2x Rapid Fire (on average, it'll take 2-3 minutes between our trash mob clears, so I can almost always have a Abacus activation up as well as a Rapid Fire activation up during fights).
Current spec: The Armory
Important to note: I believe my base agility is 768 (off the top of my head), logged out with Mark of the Wild on.
WWS Logs:
Wow Web Stats - Fathom Lord Karathess kill and trash (I have more DPS this attempt due to having GoA totems and Leader of the Pack buff about 90% of the raid, though this has only happened once or twice ever in our raids).
Wow Web Stats - Morogrim Tidewalker kill and Al'ar attempts
Wow Web Stats - Morogrim Tidewalker kill and Fathom Lord Karathess attempts
I've noticed I've averaged around 680 - 690 DPS since I've switched to my current spec (about 3 weeks now) and I'm trying valiantly to push higher then that, without sacrificing too much of any other base stat, or my contributions to the raid in terms of Expose Weakness.
Some other info;
-I attempt to use a 1/1:5 rotation, alternating between Arcane and Multi Shot, though the majority of the time it is Arcane because Multi Shot is not a feasible choice (usually due to crowd controlled mobs). I say attempt because I know just from tendency, I have a bad habit to hit both special shots when they're up and when I can safely use both shots (such on boss fights).
-I use AoH 99% of the time on trash. Boss fights will have AoV up for almost all of the right, save the DPS zerg's and we need to squeeze out all DPS that we can (such as Morogrim's Grouble spam phase).
-The only macro I use is a vanilla steady shot/auto shot macro with a castsequence=3 modifier; everything else is manually weaved in.
-I very, very rarely have class party buffs in terms of FI, Leader of the Pack, Shaman totems, etc. Our usual raid schema has the Shaman with 3 Rogues and a DPS warrior, and the Hunters spread out across different parties. It is common to have a Shadow Priest in our group, though that luxury seems to dissipate during boss fights *lol*.
EDIT: I use a cat with Bite/Claw on auto use, and manually hit Kill Command when it's up and not on cooldown (probably important to mention that, I blame lack of coffee *lol*)
Any other information that is needed I'd be happy to give, and thanks for any insight or advice that can be offered about shot rotations, gear, gems, or enchantments that can help me boost my sustained raid DPS for 700+ on a regular basis.
Cheers
Last edited by Tap : 09/25/07 at 11:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by Vaccine
Hi guys.
Recently my guild has been struggling with DPS issues. I took a few WWS parses recently and spent a long time going through each player and suggesting improvements, weeding out bad specs and getting slackers to enchant their gear etc... We've already seen a good improvement in DPS which is great but as you can probably guess by me posting in this thread, I'm having difficulties with a survivalist hunter. Now I've got nothing against this spec, its just I've got no experience with it. I've read through this thread fully now but still have a few questions. The guy seems to know what hes doing but a few problems arose: 1) He has pretty low personal DPS. Now I know your spec isn't reknowned for its high personal DPS in favour of the raid buff but even with that considered this seems low (from the dps stats posted in this thread) 2) At least 2 pieces of his gear don't have any agility on at all (Prince ring + T4 shoulders). I put it to him that he'd be better off swapping the shoulders for your D3 shoulders with 2x+8 agi gems but he won't hear about going from epic to blue. Am I right or is it worth the shoulders even though they have no agility? To note would be he would lose the 4 T4 bonus if he dropped the shoulders. Also tied in with this point is that I don't think he has enough agility to pull this spec off. Figures thrown about in this thread seem to indicate an 800 agi unbuffed as the required agi for this spec. Hes about 700. 3) He is adamant that Aimed shot is the best shot to restart his shot cycle after hes had to move (the fight was gruul so moving from shatter/cave in). Now this goes againt everything I've read on hunters in this thread and the BM thread and it would seem to me he could get an auto and steady in place of the aimed. Again, whats the general opinion on this? His armoury: The Armory The WWS for him: Plavalaguna - WWS His stats (that he posted in our priv forum thread): Thanks for any replies. |
I am 2/20/39 survival and I do ~800 DPS personal + ~250 DPS scorpid on gruul with only shaman for buffs.
-forget aimed shot- if you want to push tank's threat while MDing use distracting shot IMO
-T4 shoulders are TERRIBLE for survival hunters, as is the set bonus- ondskaben analyzed the numbers- BL mantle is far superior in spite of the blue/purple thing. this is a major crux for pre-T5 hunters to get over imo... many purples are terribly itemized- especially for survival hunters. the S2 arena stuff is fabulous though, imo (pre T5).
-ring of 100 marks is quite good imo, in spite of the lack of agility, however pathfinder's band is definitely better (AH buy). TBH I itemize to maximize my personal DPS first, including EW AP bonus, and whatever agility I have to support EW for raid- great. so my agil is only 720 unbuffed, ~900 fully raid buffed. when my guild has a stronger cadre of physical dps, maybe i will increase weight of pure agility then =p.
-belt of black eagle is great imo. OK if you have another 1-2k gold to drop on belt of deep shadow, assuming it is available to you, great. but given the issue with T4 shoulders it seems the least of his itemization worries...
-enchants: +4 stas to bracers: NO! so, 1 AP to physical DPS is worth more than 25AP (including survival talent boost to AP) to himself? textbook survival error imo. same with nethercleft armor patch to leggings- 3AP for physical DPS in raid vs ~42 AP and 12 CR for himself (and pet)? no way... maybe if you run with 15 pro rogues...
-most importantly: 100 shots in 330 seconds?!?!? he should be aiming for more like 170 shots in the same period imo. also the special:auto shot ratio is a bit low, ~1.25 including aimed shots (>.<), should aim for closer to 1.4:1 imo (obviously 1.5 is ideal). DPS time is a tremendous area of potential for him.
-obviously pet- even for non-BM is a big source of DPS improvement with proper pet management- although I am going to miss my scorpid after the patch... =*(
good luck vaccine!
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Originally Posted by Phalloidin
-forget aimed shot- if you want to push tank's threat while MDing use distracting shot IMO
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Distracting shot, with a flat ~900ish threat is the one to drop. When you average in critical hits just about every other shot ability (Auto, Steady, Multi, Arcane) are going to generate more threat. Distracting is only really useful if you need instant threat (at a phase transition) and Arcane is on cool down.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
I would disagree with this part. If you are MDing for threat, you want to generate as much threat as possible in absolute numbers. Aimed Shot may be slow, but in a fight where your DPS classes are threat capped it will mean more raid DPS. (In fact, it's the only legitimate use of Aimed Shot in raids.)
Distracting shot, with a flat ~900ish threat is the one to drop. When you average in critical hits just about every other shot ability (Auto, Steady, Multi, Arcane) are going to generate more threat. Distracting is only really useful if you need instant threat (at a phase transition) and Arcane is on cool down. |
For the same reason i always burn whatever i can of cooldowns (bloodlust broch, blood fury) before doing aimedshot/multi (if possible)/arcane MD.
I lose dps burning the cooldowns and using aimedshot, but the extra threat to the tank and the resulting extra possible raid dps towards the threat cap is far greater than my own loss =)
I lose dps burning the cooldowns and using aimedshot, but the extra threat to the tank and the resulting extra possible raid dps towards the threat cap is far greater than my own loss =)
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
I was wondering how good would 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot be? since 5 sec CD in a 1:1.5 rotation it would match it perfectly. Anyone has done some testing or something?
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I find the auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady rotation easy to use, and free of situational considerations (CC etc.). It's fine to say Multi is only restricted on trash, but when trash is half the meat of an encounter (Hyjal), this becomes important.
If Multi will hit 2 or 3 targets, can always switch to:
Auto - steady - arcane - auto - multi - auto - steady - arcane - auto - steady
I don't feel my DPS is suffering due to it either:
Winterchill WWS (just the boss)
I don't have a before or after WWS comparison to post, but anecdotally can say sustaining 1000 DPS was tricky before the respec, and now is standard. (Seeing 1150 DPS at Teron)
Kings or Might?
For all the number crunchers out there, let's assume the following:
2 hunters, 1 paladin, 10 raiders that can benefit from Expose Weakness in a 25 man raid.
One of the hunters is BM specced, the other Survival.
Survival hunter has 1068 AGI before kings, BM hunter has 589 AGI before kings, 1656AP, 29.34 crit.
10 raiders (warriors, rogues, and the 2 hunters benefit from EW)
Keeping in mind that kings gives the BM hunter agi and he benefits from the better EW AP..
Is Kings or might better for the hunters?
What if there are two BM hunters and one Survival hunter?
Thanks for the help...
2 hunters, 1 paladin, 10 raiders that can benefit from Expose Weakness in a 25 man raid.
One of the hunters is BM specced, the other Survival.
Survival hunter has 1068 AGI before kings, BM hunter has 589 AGI before kings, 1656AP, 29.34 crit.
10 raiders (warriors, rogues, and the 2 hunters benefit from EW)
Keeping in mind that kings gives the BM hunter agi and he benefits from the better EW AP..
Is Kings or might better for the hunters?
What if there are two BM hunters and one Survival hunter?
Thanks for the help...
Need a hand here:
I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... running numbers alone I can show them the boost in dps for regular attacks over X amount of time, but as great as this number is, they are of the opinion that if my name doesn't show up in the top 10 on the DM, then I am replaceable.
I do not have a hard time getting a raid spot now, I know all the fights and do my job quite well, but it is frustrating to feel as though I need to justify my raid spot and spec to my guildmates.
We are currently 3/5 through Hyjal and up to Gurtogg in BT. My armory page is: The Armory
Typically during boss fights, I am at 41% to crit and 982 agility. I can keep EW up for 95% of a boss fight. I have no shaman buffs, no feral buff, no shadow priests... on occassion I get a BM hunter in our group (he's our GM, and very good).
So basically what I am looking for here is some hardcore evidence I can present to them and show them exactly how beneficial it is to have me in the raid. Does anyone have any formula's they use for this? Any and all help is appreciated.
I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... running numbers alone I can show them the boost in dps for regular attacks over X amount of time, but as great as this number is, they are of the opinion that if my name doesn't show up in the top 10 on the DM, then I am replaceable.
I do not have a hard time getting a raid spot now, I know all the fights and do my job quite well, but it is frustrating to feel as though I need to justify my raid spot and spec to my guildmates.
We are currently 3/5 through Hyjal and up to Gurtogg in BT. My armory page is: The Armory
Typically during boss fights, I am at 41% to crit and 982 agility. I can keep EW up for 95% of a boss fight. I have no shaman buffs, no feral buff, no shadow priests... on occassion I get a BM hunter in our group (he's our GM, and very good).
So basically what I am looking for here is some hardcore evidence I can present to them and show them exactly how beneficial it is to have me in the raid. Does anyone have any formula's they use for this? Any and all help is appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
Need a hand here:
I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... running numbers alone I can show them the boost in dps for regular attacks over X amount of time, but as great as this number is, they are of the opinion that if my name doesn't show up in the top 10 on the DM, then I am replaceable. I do not have a hard time getting a raid spot now, I know all the fights and do my job quite well, but it is frustrating to feel as though I need to justify my raid spot and spec to my guildmates. We are currently 3/5 through Hyjal and up to Gurtogg in BT. My armory page is: The Armory Typically during boss fights, I am at 41% to crit and 982 agility. I can keep EW up for 95% of a boss fight. I have no shaman buffs, no feral buff, no shadow priests... on occassion I get a BM hunter in our group (he's our GM, and very good). So basically what I am looking for here is some hardcore evidence I can present to them and show them exactly how beneficial it is to have me in the raid. Does anyone have any formula's they use for this? Any and all help is appreciated. |
Your guild is pretty close to mine on progression. We are just now killing Archimonde and Essence of Souls, and I easily stay in the top 10 on pretty much every fight. Alot of those fights I can hang around top 1-5.
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Originally Posted by Zomghuntar
I can't look at your armory right now because it's blocked at work But I've been raiding as survival for some time now and I don't suffer any huge dps loss from it. We raid with 2 rogues, enhancement shaman, 1-2 dps warriors, and a feral druid or 2 so my EW definitely helps the raid's overall DPS.
Your guild is pretty close to mine on progression. We are just now killing Archimonde and Essence of Souls, and I easily stay in the top 10 on pretty much every fight. Alot of those fights I can hang around top 1-5. |
I use:
#showtooltip
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Then I manually weave Arcane shot in when I can.
Do you get grouped with feral's or the enhancement shammy?
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
Need a hand here:
I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... |
WWS: Loading...
SV can dps with 1.5:1 rotation quite ok.
In WWS Naj'etus kill is one of worst for me... but still its 974 personal dps (no pet dps).
And for those wondering about low dps time sometimes... I do 2xMD (Aimed, Multi, Arcane) on most fights.
Some time ago we got somewhere to 1ap = 0.3 dps per melee/hunter. (My 1.1k agi + imp mark... ~+385ap = ~+115dps per AP user)
Lately people report to me that maybe we have number wrong.
Maybe its gear jump or just Teron where both BM Hunters and Rogues report ~150 dps gone on their graph when I die (this needs more research, happened on last try Teron in this WWS).
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Originally Posted by Bags
For all the number crunchers out there, let's assume the following:
2 hunters, 1 paladin, 10 raiders that can benefit from Expose Weakness in a 25 man raid. One of the hunters is BM specced, the other Survival. Survival hunter has 1068 AGI before kings, BM hunter has 589 AGI before kings, 1656AP, 29.34 crit. 10 raiders (warriors, rogues, and the 2 hunters benefit from EW) Keeping in mind that kings gives the BM hunter agi and he benefits from the better EW AP.. Is Kings or might better for the hunters? What if there are two BM hunters and one Survival hunter? Thanks for the help... |
I.E. If hunters get GBoK, and you want might, click off GBOkings and get an individual might which will last the fight.
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
Hmm, then maybe it's my macros/shot rotation... do you mind if I ask what your shot rotation is and what if any macros you use?
I use: #showtooltip /assist [help, combat] /stopmacro [help] /castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot Then I manually weave Arcane shot in when I can. Do you get grouped with feral's or the enhancement shammy? |
As far as Shot rotation I basically plug my gear into Cheeky's spreadsheet and make my castsequence macro from it. Ex. I go to the shot rotation and click MaxSpecialsRotation and i get:
- Auto
- Steady
- Multi
- Auto
- Steady
- Auto
- Steady
- Arcane
- Auto
- Steady
- Auto
- Steady
- Multi
- Etc.
At shot 11 the rotation starts itself over again and I make my macro the first 10 shots. The macro might seem a bit bulky for some people, and I could probably weave in another Arcane shot if I wanted, but I normally push 1000-1400 DPS on most Hyjal/BT encounters.
The other thing you might want to look into is a lot of haste procs and Bloodlust/Heroism can screw this shot rotation up. For any major haste procs I usually drop down to a simple Steady/Auto macro for the duration.
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Originally Posted by Zomghuntar
Since our Melee group is usually Shaman/Druid/Rogue/Rogue/DPS Warrior I am usually thrown over into the Tank group, so pretty much the only buffs I get are Bloodpact and Battle Shout for my pet.
As far as Shot rotation I basically plug my gear into Cheeky's spreadsheet and make my castsequence macro from it. Ex. I go to the shot rotation and click MaxSpecialsRotation and i get:
At shot 11 the rotation starts itself over again and I make my macro the first 10 shots. The macro might seem a bit bulky for some people, and I could probably weave in another Arcane shot if I wanted, but I normally push 1000-1400 DPS on most Hyjal/BT encounters. The other thing you might want to look into is a lot of haste procs and Bloodlust/Heroism can screw this shot rotation up. For any major haste procs I usually drop down to a simple Steady/Auto macro for the duration. |
That's awesome, I was running numbers myself and found out what I was doing wrong. Thanks for the help, I'll post back here after our next raid and we can see how it went.
Tried to mess with this castsequence macro tonight and had a real hard time with it, seems that it would just stop dead after multishot.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
Need a hand here:
I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... running numbers alone I can show them the boost in dps for regular attacks over X amount of time, but as great as this number is, they are of the opinion that if my name doesn't show up in the top 10 on the DM, then I am replaceable. I do not have a hard time getting a raid spot now, I know all the fights and do my job quite well, but it is frustrating to feel as though I need to justify my raid spot and spec to my guildmates. We are currently 3/5 through Hyjal and up to Gurtogg in BT. My armory page is: The Armory Typically during boss fights, I am at 41% to crit and 982 agility. I can keep EW up for 95% of a boss fight. I have no shaman buffs, no feral buff, no shadow priests... on occassion I get a BM hunter in our group (he's our GM, and very good). So basically what I am looking for here is some hardcore evidence I can present to them and show them exactly how beneficial it is to have me in the raid. Does anyone have any formula's they use for this? Any and all help is appreciated. |
EW raid dps boost = ~[Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3
I can see you have imp mark 2/5 as well. Assuming no other hunters have a higher talented mark buff, you can add 40% of 110 to the contributing factor, ie 44ap.
With 982 agi your EW will be ~245ap.
A little rework could look like this: [Ranged+melee on target-you]*[attack power gained from ew+attackpoeer gained from imp mark]*0.3+your recorded dps
Plugging in your 982 raidbuffed agi and assuming you do at least 1000dps yourself (pet included) this would make the following:
Your contribution with 5 ap users:
((5-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (4*289*0.3)+1000 = 1346.8dps
Your contribution with 6 ap users:
((6-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (5*289*0.3)+1000 = 1433.5dps
Your contribution with 7 ap users:
((7-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (6*289*0.3)+1000 = 1520.2dps
Your contribution with 8 ap users:
((8-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (7*289*0.3)+1000 = 1606.9dps
(in other words EW+mark contributes 86.7dps extra on top of your own dps per ap user)
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
Tried to mess with this castsequence macro tonight and had a real hard time with it, seems that it would just stop dead after multishot.
Any ideas? |
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Originally Posted by Thalestris
Could you be more precise please ?
I have 5/5 imp. arcane shot for some time now, and I like it. With this talent, I can shot an arcane every two autoshots (instead of 3), it's a great dps boost. My shot rotation: Auto - steady, arcane Auto - steady (or multi-shot if avaible) Auto - steady, arcane and so on ... I still use multishot. Most players seems to use multi after a steady shot. I perfer to replace the steady shot in the middle of my rotation by a multi, to avoid delaying the next auto. Link to my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I suppose my current spec is ok, and the only talent I really miss is rapid killing. But my overall dps, and my ability to do burst damage has improved a bit, while TotH help with the insane mana consumption. Before that I was using this spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm). |
Survival build with 3/5 RWS
The rotation i was using was a 1,5:1 (6 specials, 4 autos)
Auto
-Multi
Auto
-Steady, Arcane
Auto
-Steady
Auto
-Steady-Arcane
I play with about 160-240ms and this is why i chose not to fire multi after a steady, tests confirmed this.
About the spec i mention, it worked fine for me on most fights, by using Elixir of Major Mageblood, Superior Mana Oil and Fel Mana potions.
Maybe give the build and spec a try for yourself, adjusting it according to the specific needs of your raid. For example, i didn't get Improved Hunter's Mark due to the fact that we were getting only 2 rogues and 2 hunters in the raid, as physical dps. No enhancement shamans, no DPS warrior. And i don't think it would be a good idea to leave out both Thrill of the Hunt and Efficiency.
I don't mean to completely derail this thread, but I can't make new topics yet, so here we are.
I understand that EW works off crit%, but one of the hunters in my raid group is INSISTING he get our lone feral druid in his group for this buff to proc more often, stating that the 200 AP for the other 4 melee (3 rogue and an enhance shammy) would be better off than those 4 melee getting the 5% crit. (We only bring 5 melee including the feral druid)
Now of course EW counts for tanks too, but they rely less on AP and more on shield block/parry, so they're inconsequential in my mind. This hunter is adamant that this is the best option for the raid (He usually sits in the group with the 3 tanks and an imp lock).
Opinions/numbers?
I understand that EW works off crit%, but one of the hunters in my raid group is INSISTING he get our lone feral druid in his group for this buff to proc more often, stating that the 200 AP for the other 4 melee (3 rogue and an enhance shammy) would be better off than those 4 melee getting the 5% crit. (We only bring 5 melee including the feral druid)
Now of course EW counts for tanks too, but they rely less on AP and more on shield block/parry, so they're inconsequential in my mind. This hunter is adamant that this is the best option for the raid (He usually sits in the group with the 3 tanks and an imp lock).
Opinions/numbers?
| I don't mean to completely derail this thread, but I can't make new topics yet, so here we are. |
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Originally Posted by Delita
I understand that EW works off crit%, but one of the hunters in my raid group is INSISTING he get our lone feral druid in his group for this buff to proc more often, stating that the 200 AP for the other 4 melee (3 rogue and an enhance shammy) would be better off than those 4 melee getting the 5% crit. (We only bring 5 melee including the feral druid)
Now of course EW counts for tanks too, but they rely less on AP and more on shield block/parry, so they're inconsequential in my mind. This hunter is adamant that this is the best option for the raid (He usually sits in the group with the 3 tanks and an imp lock). Opinions/numbers? |
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Originally Posted by Delita
I understand that EW works off crit%, but one of the hunters in my raid group is INSISTING he get our lone feral druid in his group for this buff to proc more often, stating that the 200 AP for the other 4 melee (3 rogue and an enhance shammy) would be better off than those 4 melee getting the 5% crit. (We only bring 5 melee including the feral druid)
Now of course EW counts for tanks too, but they rely less on AP and more on shield block/parry, so they're inconsequential in my mind. This hunter is adamant that this is the best option for the raid (He usually sits in the group with the 3 tanks and an imp lock). Opinions/numbers? |
You use
Group1: 3x Tank(war), affl lock(imp), sv hunter
Group2: 3x Rogue, FeralDps, Enh.shaman
1 tank warrior should respec in dps and switch place with feral
Trade: 5% crit for improved BS in rogue group, 2x tanks (mt+ot1) gain 5% crit for more TPS and lose nothing. Hunter gains 5% crit. FeralDPS looses STR totem and gains BS+CS.
Feral should be OT2 and DPS where tanking is not needed.
Single boss tank n spank (one tank - Naj'etenus/Winterchil/...). Give resto shaman in group 1 instead of OT. For WF(if MT has aggro issues) or GoA (if extra avoidance/resists are needed). Hunter gains GoA, raid gains AP (~23ap from totem, trough hunters EW).
Opinion2 (hunter):
Hunter does not need +5% crit if he has 3/3 EW and ~35% crit buffed. Uptime change will be minimal. (DL Cheeky's spreadsheet, plug gear in and you can check precise effect of group buffs on hunter EW uptime/DPS etc.)
I have ~35% crit unbuffed and I have 2/3 EW since uptime really doesn't suffer even if I'm given no group buffs (goa/lotp).
Your hunter should be more concerned about his mana management, witch might be one of "extra" reasons that he insists on +5% crit. TotH is returning lots of mana and its crit dependent (check WWS few posts back that I posted).
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that even thought the 5% crit is nice, it's more beneficial to have the druid in the rogue/rogue/shaman/dps warrior group. Now, having two feral druids in the raid I am all for ^_^b
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Originally Posted by Zomghuntar
If you can post me the macro you were trying to use and I can take a look at it.
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It was basically the same I posted before
#showtooltip
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Then I changed the shot order around from Cheeky's sheet... did I do this wrong? I will fully admit that I am not the most technically savvy person out there. I am flat out terrible with macros.
Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Delita
I don't mean to completely derail this thread, but I can't make new topics yet, so here we are.
I understand that EW works off crit%, but one of the hunters in my raid group is INSISTING he get our lone feral druid in his group for this buff to proc more often, stating that the 200 AP for the other 4 melee (3 rogue and an enhance shammy) would be better off than those 4 melee getting the 5% crit. (We only bring 5 melee including the feral druid) Now of course EW counts for tanks too, but they rely less on AP and more on shield block/parry, so they're inconsequential in my mind. This hunter is adamant that this is the best option for the raid (He usually sits in the group with the 3 tanks and an imp lock). Opinions/numbers? |
On a fight like Kazzak when you only have a minute anyway and can do it with 40 peeps, I do get a feral and usually TSA from a MM as well as FI from a BM hunter... 3 hunters in the top 5 damage spots every time.
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Originally Posted by Ondskaben
An approximation formula was posted earlier in this thread:
EW raid dps boost = ~[Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3 I can see you have imp mark 2/5 as well. Assuming no other hunters have a higher talented mark buff, you can add 40% of 110 to the contributing factor, ie 44ap. With 982 agi your EW will be ~245ap. A little rework could look like this: [Ranged+melee on target-you]*[attack power gained from ew+attackpoeer gained from imp mark]*0.3+your recorded dps Plugging in your 982 raidbuffed agi and assuming you do at least 1000dps yourself (pet included) this would make the following: Your contribution with 5 ap users: ((5-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (4*289*0.3)+1000 = 1346.8dps Your contribution with 6 ap users: ((6-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (5*289*0.3)+1000 = 1433.5dps Your contribution with 7 ap users: ((7-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (6*289*0.3)+1000 = 1520.2dps Your contribution with 8 ap users: ((8-1)*(245+44)*0.3)+1000 = (7*289*0.3)+1000 = 1606.9dps (in other words EW+mark contributes 86.7dps extra on top of your own dps per ap user) |
This was an awesome help, I'm currently scrolling through this thread to see where the .3 AP number came from... have we confirmed that this is indeed correct?
I wish I could force one of our tanks to go fury, but all 4 warriors we carry insist they want to remain protection ;_;. That aside, thanks, that spread helped alot, I raed the first 3 pages before posting my quesry as I couldn't see anything relevant to my question. Thanks alot
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
It was basically the same I posted before
#showtooltip /assist [help, combat] /stopmacro [help] /castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot Then I changed the shot order around from Cheeky's sheet... did I do this wrong? I will fully admit that I am not the most technically savvy person out there. I am flat out terrible with macros. Thanks in advance. |
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
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Originally Posted by Beovylf
This was an awesome help, I'm currently scrolling through this thread to see where the .3 AP number came from... have we confirmed that this is indeed correct?
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Useful numbers
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Originally Posted by Ondskaben
assuming you do at least 1000dps yourself (pet included)
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These numbers are really useful. This assumption is a little high based on what I have seen.
Thanks for doing the math.
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Originally Posted by bumpistador
These numbers are really useful. This assumption is a little high based on what I have seen.
Thanks for doing the math. |
I am delighted that you found the calculations useful =)
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Originally Posted by Ondskaben
Sorry if i chose too high a number. I'm the only survival hunter in my guild as thus have nooelse else to compare with specwise but myself. Normally im at 800-1500dps (pet included) depending on the encounter, group setup and wether or not i have to keep scorpid up.
I am delighted that you found the calculations useful =) |
So lost.
I'm understanding the basic concepts I THINK atleast. From what I've seen, since we rely on EW and burst damage, logic leads me to believe that haste is a good thing. Much like BM, a steady, auto, KC macro with arcane and multi tossed in when feeling gutsy will net the best returns. From reading this thread, the BM thread, AND the [hunters just dont get it] thread, that is what I have discerned is the best for survival. High agi, high haste rating, low special shot percentage, and decent mana regen so it can go on forever.
But then I look at the posts and it contradicts what logic is bringing to my head. Specials are good and haste is bad for survival. No, not bad as in negative returns, but bad as in you will get more dps if you focus more on specials than haste if specced survival.
Then the spreadsheets. Oh lordy dii the spreadsheets. How do you people DO it? I'm reading it and I can understand most of it, but according to this thing, at my current spec (surv) my dps should be around 1400. ANd that's JUST using steady/auto. I'm not even sure if it's weaving KCs in there automatically or assuming using cooldowns (i assume it believes you will proc in the calculations). Despite this, I have never seen myself get that high on SWstats. I mean, I've never even broken 1k dps. Is it my macro? My latency? My fps? It's all GOOD. Hell, I got a new computer for bioshock and wow runs beautifully.
I just don't know what I am doing wrong here. *deep breath* Incidentally. Outside of raiding, what could be done to improve my toon for survival.
The Armory
Is there a way to load my saved spreadsheet in a post here?
But then I look at the posts and it contradicts what logic is bringing to my head. Specials are good and haste is bad for survival. No, not bad as in negative returns, but bad as in you will get more dps if you focus more on specials than haste if specced survival.
Then the spreadsheets. Oh lordy dii the spreadsheets. How do you people DO it? I'm reading it and I can understand most of it, but according to this thing, at my current spec (surv) my dps should be around 1400. ANd that's JUST using steady/auto. I'm not even sure if it's weaving KCs in there automatically or assuming using cooldowns (i assume it believes you will proc in the calculations). Despite this, I have never seen myself get that high on SWstats. I mean, I've never even broken 1k dps. Is it my macro? My latency? My fps? It's all GOOD. Hell, I got a new computer for bioshock and wow runs beautifully.
I just don't know what I am doing wrong here. *deep breath* Incidentally. Outside of raiding, what could be done to improve my toon for survival.
The Armory
Is there a way to load my saved spreadsheet in a post here?
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Just a quick note on the spreadsheet DPS values:
Have you set armor against target?
Have you set armor against target?
Last edited by Lactose : 10/03/07 at 3:11 PM.
Ah! No. Where can I find Karathress's armor rating?
Ah this thing also always assumes Quick Shots is up.
Ah this thing also always assumes Quick Shots is up.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Ah! No. Where can I find Karathress's armor rating?
Ah this thing also always assumes Quick Shots is up. |
Ok, I'm less lost on the spreadsheet. But where do I go to find boss armor ratings. I saw it in passing but can't recall if it was a thread or within the spreadsheet.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Ok, I'm less lost on the spreadsheet. But where do I go to find boss armor ratings. I saw it in passing but can't recall if it was a thread or within the spreadsheet.
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Ok, now it's looking right. Tack on raid buffs and I'm around 800+ on VOid Reaver. Way less worried than I was .
Still. That leaves me wondering how to improve my character outside of raids so he can be better within raids.
Still. That leaves me wondering how to improve my character outside of raids so he can be better within raids.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Ok, now it's looking right. Tack on raid buffs and I'm around 800+ on VOid Reaver. Way less worried than I was .
Still. That leaves me wondering how to improve my character outside of raids so he can be better within raids. |
* You are troll, +5 bow skill means +3% hit against +3lvl mobs.
* You are SV, you get +3% hit from talents.
= you need 3% hit from gear (you have 7.9%, 2/3 surefooted and gun = 9.9% hit = .9% to much and expensive on gear choices)
2. Deciding on 2 things
* Slack or Work (1:1 rotation or 1.5:1)
* Chain pot or not (1.5:1 rotation or 1:1)
This is big, probably the biggest decision with SV. I chose 1.5:1 and chain pot since it produces best results for me. Downside is that mana usage is greater than chain pots and consumables are able to cover. Teaching paladins to JoW and having Alchemy Stone fixed this issue somewhat and I can use KC on some fights now.
3. Talents
* 2/5 deflection + 2/3 monster slaying?
* 3/5 mortal shots? :/ MS is probably best dps increasing talent for SV.
Depending what you decided in #2. Your spec should look more 7/20/34 or 0/20+/33+
I recommend my spec (+- points in early tiers) for trying to play with 1.5:1.
4. Your gear.
Sadly I can't see what you have socketed since gear refuses to show properly. Use +agi gems (+8agi / +4hit&+4agi / +4agi&+6sta / 12agi meta). Engi head is nice but not so nice for SV since it lacks agi. Belt I presume is PvP one, try and get one of 2 crafted ones. Cloak could be changed with heroics one.
5. Group & Pet
Try to get LotP or GoA. SP is not bad either and use your pet. Even SV pet can reach 250dps.(still 300dps behind BM but... its nice) Comparing non-group buffed hunter to WF+BS Rogues is somewhat "fancy to do" here.
6. Give me your Tsunami Talisman
woot 2 more!
A few quick questions on playing the Survival Hunter, please.
My unbuffed agility is at 705 - I have a few upgrades I am aiming for to get that up higher, namely in the helm, rings and necklace department. Just waiting for drops.
The shot rotation I aim for is 1.5:1 with the following order. Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Arcane - Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Multi .... If we are on trash with CC, or on bosses with adds. (Tidewalker during murloc run) I don't use Multi, and instead do another auto/steady until arcane is up.
I have a WWS report of our raid this week on Tidewalker and Lurker. What should I be capable of as far as dps output, and if I am not reaching it, can anyone spot what is holding me back?
Lurker WWS - Wow Web Stats
Tidewalker WWS - Wow Web Stats
I know there is a help me thread here, but I have had no luck getting answers there. So as this is specifically Surv related, I was hoping the experts on /this/ spec could lend some suggestions.
Thanks all.
My unbuffed agility is at 705 - I have a few upgrades I am aiming for to get that up higher, namely in the helm, rings and necklace department. Just waiting for drops.
The shot rotation I aim for is 1.5:1 with the following order. Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Arcane - Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Multi .... If we are on trash with CC, or on bosses with adds. (Tidewalker during murloc run) I don't use Multi, and instead do another auto/steady until arcane is up.
I have a WWS report of our raid this week on Tidewalker and Lurker. What should I be capable of as far as dps output, and if I am not reaching it, can anyone spot what is holding me back?
Lurker WWS - Wow Web Stats
Tidewalker WWS - Wow Web Stats
I know there is a help me thread here, but I have had no luck getting answers there. So as this is specifically Surv related, I was hoping the experts on /this/ spec could lend some suggestions.
Thanks all.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
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Originally Posted by Sapa
1. Weapon, get bow and nerf hit rating in favor of agi/ap/crit/int/sta
* You are troll, +5 bow skill means +3% hit against +3lvl mobs. * You are SV, you get +3% hit from talents. = you need 3% hit from gear (you have 7.9%, 2/3 surefooted and gun = 9.9% hit = .9% to much and expensive on gear choices) |
Thanks in advance-
Leighlu
*edit* Found it on page 8 of the Help me Please Thread.
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Originally Posted by Lactose
Surefooted doesn't add +Hit Rating. Surefooted adds pure +Hit Chance.
The character sheet does not show +Hit Chance. Surefooted works, you just don't see the gain in your character sheet, due to how it's set up. |
Last edited by Leighlu : 10/04/07 at 1:49 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
A few quick questions on playing the Survival Hunter, please.
My unbuffed agility is at 705 - I have a few upgrades I am aiming for to get that up higher, namely in the helm, rings and necklace department. Just waiting for drops. The shot rotation I aim for is 1.5:1 with the following order. Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Arcane - Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Multi .... If we are on trash with CC, or on bosses with adds. (Tidewalker during murloc run) I don't use Multi, and instead do another auto/steady until arcane is up. I have a WWS report of our raid this week on Tidewalker and Lurker. What should I be capable of as far as dps output, and if I am not reaching it, can anyone spot what is holding me back? Lurker WWS - Wow Web Stats Tidewalker WWS - Wow Web Stats I know there is a help me thread here, but I have had no luck getting answers there. So as this is specifically Surv related, I was hoping the experts on /this/ spec could lend some suggestions. Thanks all. |
Last edited by Gruknok : 10/04/07 at 4:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
A few quick questions on playing the Survival Hunter, please.
My unbuffed agility is at 705 - I have a few upgrades I am aiming for to get that up higher, namely in the helm, rings and necklace department. Just waiting for drops. The shot rotation I aim for is 1.5:1 with the following order. Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Arcane - Auto/Steady - Auto/Steady/Multi .... If we are on trash with CC, or on bosses with adds. (Tidewalker during murloc run) I don't use Multi, and instead do another auto/steady until arcane is up. I have a WWS report of our raid this week on Tidewalker and Lurker. What should I be capable of as far as dps output, and if I am not reaching it, can anyone spot what is holding me back? Lurker WWS - Wow Web Stats Tidewalker WWS - Wow Web Stats I know there is a help me thread here, but I have had no luck getting answers there. So as this is specifically Surv related, I was hoping the experts on /this/ spec could lend some suggestions. Thanks all. |
From your gear, you should get the BoE rings aforementioned, and definitely get the relentless earthstorm diamond for your meta socket.
You have virtually the same spec as me. You can afford to replace some pieces of your gear with leather for superior stats, i.e. attumen belt, shadow deep belt, etc etc.
How do I get to the better parts of surv w/o wasting those points then? Where is a better place to stuff points?
And WoW won't let me see your talent tree
And WoW won't let me see your talent tree
Since the general consensus seems to be that MT isn't all that great, would it be worth trying to pick up combat experience in the MM tree? Assuming you decide to stay away from iAotH because of shot rotation concerns, you could do something like:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I've seen some builds that put the points into RWS but it seems like CE would fit better with the SV build for the extra 2% agi. Thoughts?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I've seen some builds that put the points into RWS but it seems like CE would fit better with the SV build for the extra 2% agi. Thoughts?
Vilyah instead of CE wich at 800 agility it would give you +16, getting 3/3 TotH would be a great boost. Also I believe Imp. Hunter's Mark should be BM hunter business.
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
Vilyah instead of CE wich at 800 agility it would give you +16, getting 3/3 TotH would be a great boost. Also I believe Imp. Hunter's Mark should be BM hunter business.
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The one whos not doing scorpid sting should take the IHM imo. Depends on raid activity too.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
The one whos not doing scorpid sting should take the IHM imo. Depends on raid activity too.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
The one whos not doing scorpid sting should take the IHM imo. Depends on raid activity too.
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Also, I'm generally the one who does both Scorpid and Mark. Mark is easy in most fights we've done since there are obvious times during the fight when you are naturally reminded to reset it (or you can't use regular shots). Like when running back from a Shatter on Gruul, during the quake on Mag, when Lurker resurfaces, transitions on Hydross, running from orbs on Void Reaver, etc. You either can't or don't want to do DPS for awhile, so there's often a great window to hit Hunter's Mark. Scorpid is tougher since it has to be done more often.
In general, I have more trouble remembering to keep Scorpid and Mark up than putting them in my rotation somewhere.
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Originally Posted by affamu
I don't think I've been hurt too much by taking IHM instead of Efficiency. ToTH and Fel Mana is usually enough to get me through most fights. There are only a few fights where I run out of both mana and potion cooldowns before the end. And in those cases, when I don't have JoW of a Shadow Priest, I can always use AotV as a last resort.
Also, I'm generally the one who does both Scorpid and Mark. Mark is easy in most fights we've done since there are obvious times during the fight when you are naturally reminded to reset it (or you can't use regular shots). Like when running back from a Shatter on Gruul, during the quake on Mag, when Lurker resurfaces, transitions on Hydross, running from orbs on Void Reaver, etc. You either can't or don't want to do DPS for awhile, so there's often a great window to hit Hunter's Mark. Scorpid is tougher since it has to be done more often. In general, I have more trouble remembering to keep Scorpid and Mark up than putting them in my rotation somewhere. |
Youre obviously using Alchemists stone, it changes things alot.
I got one question, we are starting to do TK and SSC and I still got the Opera gun, that damn bow wont drop from Prince so Im stuck with it.
I got a bad rating 2v2 team doing the 10 fights per week only to stack some points since we raid most of the week... Is the S2 xbow a good upgrade for me or I should buy another arena piece (legs or chest) and wait until we can kill Al'ar and hopefully he will drop the gun and I'll get it?
Any other tip on my gear is welcome too...
And I have master tactician only because I was trying it, didnt like it so, Im respeccing again this week...
BTW, I logged out with PVP gear, I dont use that axe, head, rings, bracer and trinkets on raid.
I got a bad rating 2v2 team doing the 10 fights per week only to stack some points since we raid most of the week... Is the S2 xbow a good upgrade for me or I should buy another arena piece (legs or chest) and wait until we can kill Al'ar and hopefully he will drop the gun and I'll get it?
Any other tip on my gear is welcome too...
And I have master tactician only because I was trying it, didnt like it so, Im respeccing again this week...
BTW, I logged out with PVP gear, I dont use that axe, head, rings, bracer and trinkets on raid.
I am usually the designated scorpid sting keeper-upper in raids and don't have many problems with mana except on extremely long fights. On those select long fights I use aspect of the viper and chug fel mana pots--sometimes I end up being stuck in a 1:1 rotation, but not often.
And now, for something completely different...
Armor penetration gear has been piquing my interest lately, and was wondering if anyone had come up with general values for the state. I realize that armor penetration will have a varying effect on your damage due to differing base armor of your target, but I'm thinking that for a crit-heavy build like survival with 230% crit damage that a bit of armor penetration would be a very good thing. I also remember seeing in another post on these forums that most raid bosses seem to hover around similar armor values.
So has anyone compared damage output between their regular gear and armor penetration gear and noticed a marked difference?
And now, for something completely different...
Armor penetration gear has been piquing my interest lately, and was wondering if anyone had come up with general values for the state. I realize that armor penetration will have a varying effect on your damage due to differing base armor of your target, but I'm thinking that for a crit-heavy build like survival with 230% crit damage that a bit of armor penetration would be a very good thing. I also remember seeing in another post on these forums that most raid bosses seem to hover around similar armor values.
So has anyone compared damage output between their regular gear and armor penetration gear and noticed a marked difference?
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
Heres a question that I have.
[Bristleblitz Striker]
vs
[Black Bow of the Betrayer]
Okay, first their damage range, speed, and DPS is the same. Only difference is their equip bonus.
Now my question is, which one will over time on a boss fight give you back more mana? This is of course if you are specced into TOTH.
[Bristleblitz Striker]
vs
[Black Bow of the Betrayer]
Okay, first their damage range, speed, and DPS is the same. Only difference is their equip bonus.
Now my question is, which one will over time on a boss fight give you back more mana? This is of course if you are specced into TOTH.
Last edited by Junipar : 10/06/07 at 5:47 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
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Originally Posted by Junipar
Heres a question that I have.
[Bristleblitz Striker] vs [Black Bow of the Betrayer] Okay, first their damage range, speed, and DPS is the same. Only difference is their equip bonus. Now my question is, which one will over time on a boss fight give you back more mana? This is of course if you are specced into TOTH. |
25 crit rating on [Bristleblitz Striker] will increase chance to crit by ~1.1%. 60% of shots use mana so the chance to triger the talent is increased by 0.6*1.1 = 0.66%. 40% of mana spent will be 472.5 * 0.4 = 189. This means you get 0.66% chance to restore 189 mana over 5 secs with the striker. 189 * 0.007 = 1.3 mp5.
Not what ive expected either but well [Bristleblitz Striker] gives HP and ~7 dps more. And [Black Bow of the Betrayer] drops from the very las boss so...
Id go MM with the [Black Bow of the Betrayer] tbh. Its a free 3/3 ToTH.
Last edited by Gruknok : 10/06/07 at 6:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
You do ~1 shot every sec on 1:1.5 rotation so [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will give ~8*5 mp5 = 40 mp5. Base mana cost of double 1:1.5 rotation to use both multi and arcane shot (duration ~10 secs) is 945. 945 /2 = 472.5 mana used in 5 secs.
25 crit rating on [Bristleblitz Striker] will increase chance to crit by ~1.1%. 60% of shots use mana so the chance to triger the talent is increased by 0.6*1.1 = 0.66%. 40% of mana spent will be 472.5 * 0.4 = 189. This means you get 0.66% chance to restore 189 mana over 5 secs with the striker. 189 * 0.007 = 1.3 mp5. Not what ive expected either but well [Bristleblitz Striker] gives HP and ~7 dps more. And [Black Bow of the Betrayer] drops from the very las boss so... Id go MM with the [Black Bow of the Betrayer] tbh. Its a free 3/3 ToTH. |
But then again...with [Black Bow of the Betrayer] plus TOTH would be nice. I guess in the end it all depends on what crit % you are at fully buffed.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
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Originally Posted by Junipar
I don't think calculating TOTH based on just the bow is a good comparison imo, if you're fully raid buffed you should be around 40-50% crit (depending on spec and group comp).
But then again...with [Black Bow of the Betrayer] plus TOTH would be nice. I guess in the end it all depends on what crit % you are at fully buffed. |
Maybe youre interested if its better to have [Black Bow of the Betrayer] and 0/3 toth or 3/3 toh and [Bristleblitz Striker] then yes it may vary depending on raid setup. Mana return will be simmilar i guess, but dps gained from these 3 talents might be worth it.
Survival with 3/3 toth and [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will most likely have too much mana. RWS in that case would be better imo.
Last edited by Gruknok : 10/07/07 at 6:56 AM.
Survival with 3/3 toth and [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will most likely have too much mana. RWS in that case would be better imo.
This is so not true tbh. If you use AoTh all the time i am atm running out of mana after about 4 minutes (taking no pots). a lot of the important fights in this game are 10+ minutes long so tbh you cant get to a point where you have too much mana!
This is so not true tbh. If you use AoTh all the time i am atm running out of mana after about 4 minutes (taking no pots). a lot of the important fights in this game are 10+ minutes long so tbh you cant get to a point where you have too much mana!
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
Survival with 3/3 toth and [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will most likely have too much mana. RWS in that case would be better imo.
This is so not true tbh. If you use AoTh all the time i am atm running out of mana after about 4 minutes (taking no pots). a lot of the important fights in this game are 10+ minutes long so tbh you cant get to a point where you have too much mana! |
Wouldnt it be better to have less mana, more dps on short fights and switch to aotv when needed?
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Originally Posted by ugla
And now, for something completely different...
Armor penetration gear has been piquing my interest lately, and was wondering if anyone had come up with general values for the state. I realize that armor penetration will have a varying effect on your damage due to differing base armor of your target, but I'm thinking that for a crit-heavy build like survival with 230% crit damage that a bit of armor penetration would be a very good thing. I also remember seeing in another post on these forums that most raid bosses seem to hover around similar armor values. So has anyone compared damage output between their regular gear and armor penetration gear and noticed a marked difference? |
Question on the shot rotation for survival hunters. What speed ranges are ideal for the 1.5:1 rotation (unhasted), and are macros helpful for ensuring you are getting the rotation down right?
I am finding that even on nights when I think I am nailing it, that I am missing horribly. I use quartz bars to time the shots, but the amount of varying lag I get is making my head hurt. For ten shots, auto shot will be nice and smooth, then getting into that rhythmn, I fire off my steady or whatever, only to find that suddenly the auto shot lagged, or what not...
My latency can go from hovering at 118, to jumping to 300, to going back to 120 something, all in the manner of 15 seconds, so manually timing things never gives me the perfection I want.
I am finding that even on nights when I think I am nailing it, that I am missing horribly. I use quartz bars to time the shots, but the amount of varying lag I get is making my head hurt. For ten shots, auto shot will be nice and smooth, then getting into that rhythmn, I fire off my steady or whatever, only to find that suddenly the auto shot lagged, or what not...
My latency can go from hovering at 118, to jumping to 300, to going back to 120 something, all in the manner of 15 seconds, so manually timing things never gives me the perfection I want.
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
Survival with 3/3 toth and [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will most likely have too much mana. RWS in that case would be better imo.
This is so not true tbh. If you use AoTh all the time i am atm running out of mana after about 4 minutes (taking no pots). a lot of the important fights in this game are 10+ minutes long so tbh you cant get to a point where you have too much mana! |
Now, seriously, unpotted and with hawk always up (and i'm assuming without mana oils) it's normal for you to run out of mana, even with TOTH, because it will only return 40% of the mana cost, and only 30-50% of the time. Unstable mana potions are quite cheap, and they're more than enough for a survival hunter with TOTH and buffed with wisdom. Mana oils straight off the AH are quite expensive, but the mats for them are reasonably cheap, and surely a guild enchanter can make you a few if you need them. They last quite a lot too, for a full stack of netherbloom and 3 stacks of arcane dust, you get (20x5chargesx30mins) 3000 minutes of mana regeneration at the rate of 14/5 sec.
A [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will probably amount to 40 mps at most, depending on hasted speed and shot rotations , which is still only the rough equivalent of the mana oil and wisdom. It will not under any circumstances spare you from using mana potions But indeed, it will save you quite a bit on the cost of consumables for farm content. And seeing how it drops off Illidan, i'd say every raid will be farm content.
So, after this quick (and may i say shallow) estimation, i'd venture a guess that you will not end a fight at 100% mana.
Now, RWS may indeed be better for pure hunter dps, but i can see the mana coming in handy for other purposes (such as misdirecting, mending the pet, even feigning, which were all issues for the time i was a MM). The 5% extra damage on the ranged attacks may not be worth it if you lose your pet's damage early in a fight (although i take it that there are some seriously unfriendly fights for pets in BT/MH)
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Which bow ?: Things are quite simple in my opinion, first you should get whichever (bow) you can get and then get the other one too. Switch between these two bows, depending on the nature of the boss fight. Using Black Bow of the Betrayer when you know that you'll need the extra mana.
To Thrill or not to Thrill ?: No analysis needed really, you should go up to 3/5 RWS to maximize DPS and if for some reason you realize that you can't sustain your mana in a considerable amount of boss fights that your guild is working on, then change to TotH and hate yourself when the white numbers are big and the yellow small.
Which consumables ?: Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, Superior mana Oil, Drums of Restoration (if you are LW), Agility food and Fel mana potions are the best choice in my opinion for most boss fights as a Survival hunter with no Shadow priest in your group.
What to do when farming Hyjal/BT ?: If the raid is physical DPS heavy, then as a Survival hunter you can get a shadow priest in your group for "cheaper" raiding. If the raid is not physical DPS heavy, you can as well respec to BM (your raid won't really miss your EW) and save gold for your WotlK mount. This is a better choice in my opinion than to go to a raid using crappy mana pots, or not having Barrage + 3/5 RWS and not using Multi-Shot.
Finally:
1. Pets don't die to lack of mana, but to mis-use and sometimes due to bad luck
2. How can TotH be better than RWS, when it will give you some mana back in an unreliable way and lower your DPM value, when you can sustain your mana in other ways, like by using the appropriate consumables.
To Thrill or not to Thrill ?: No analysis needed really, you should go up to 3/5 RWS to maximize DPS and if for some reason you realize that you can't sustain your mana in a considerable amount of boss fights that your guild is working on, then change to TotH and hate yourself when the white numbers are big and the yellow small.
Which consumables ?: Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, Superior mana Oil, Drums of Restoration (if you are LW), Agility food and Fel mana potions are the best choice in my opinion for most boss fights as a Survival hunter with no Shadow priest in your group.
What to do when farming Hyjal/BT ?: If the raid is physical DPS heavy, then as a Survival hunter you can get a shadow priest in your group for "cheaper" raiding. If the raid is not physical DPS heavy, you can as well respec to BM (your raid won't really miss your EW) and save gold for your WotlK mount. This is a better choice in my opinion than to go to a raid using crappy mana pots, or not having Barrage + 3/5 RWS and not using Multi-Shot.
Finally:
1. Pets don't die to lack of mana, but to mis-use and sometimes due to bad luck
2. How can TotH be better than RWS, when it will give you some mana back in an unreliable way and lower your DPM value, when you can sustain your mana in other ways, like by using the appropriate consumables.
Last edited by orsraunia : 10/09/07 at 9:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by orsraunia
Which bow ?: Things are quite simple in my opinion, first you should get whichever (bow) you can get and then get the other one too. Switch between these two bows, depending on the nature of the boss fight. Using Black Bow of the Betrayer when you know that you'll need the extra mana.
To Thrill or not to Thrill ?: No analysis needed really, you should go up to 3/5 RWS to maximize DPS and if for some reason you realize that you can't sustain your mana in a considerable amount of boss fights that your guild is working on, then change to TotH and hate yourself when the white numbers are big and the yellow small. Which consumables ?: Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, Superior mana Oil, Drums of Restoration (if you are LW), Agility food and Fel mana potions are the best choice in my opinion for most boss fights as a Survival hunter with no Shadow priest in your group. What to do when farming Hyjal/BT ?: If the raid is physical DPS heavy, then as a Survival hunter you can get a shadow priest in your group for "cheaper" raiding. If the raid is not physical DPS heavy, you can as well respec to BM (your raid won't really miss your EW) and save gold for your WotlK mount. This is a better choice in my opinion than to go to a raid using crappy mana pots, or not having Barrage + 3/5 RWS and not using Multi-Shot. Finally: 1. Pets don't die to lack of mana, but to mis-use and sometimes due to bad luck 2. How can TotH be better than RWS, when it will give you some mana back in an unreliable way and lower your DPM value, when you can sustain your mana in other ways, like by using the appropriate consumables. |
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
might be me but WTF is RWS?
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by orsraunia
2. How can TotH be better than RWS, when it will give you some mana back in an unreliable way and lower your DPM value, when you can sustain your mana in other ways, like by using the appropriate consumables.
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Here's a WWS showing 1050-1150dps, 80-85% dps time and ~6k mana per fight from TotH
Hydross/Lurker/Tidewalker
Last edited by QuiggyB : 10/10/07 at 9:35 AM.
Hi guys and gals. The question that I have is in regards to Expose Weakness in raids. I was just wanting to find out if anyone knows of a mod or a way to find out exactly how much damage exspose weakness is adding to other melee classes in your raid.
Ive used Cheeky's Datasheet to work out what ap I would be contributing to the raid but what I wouldnt mind knowing is the actual damage output and dps it is providing to that individual with that increase to there ap so it could give me a rough idea as to the effect it is having on the raid as a whole.
Our guild uses the WWS report on each run and I have looked at myself and the other melee types and there is nothing there in the way as to show how much exspose weakness has added to there damage or mine.
If this was possible we could then compare out BM/MM damage with that of SV to see how much of a difference there is. Even though you might slightly be decreasing your own personal dps you may be increasing it elsewhere with others and wouldnt mind knowing how much more
Just something that I have been thinking about and wanted to see if anyone else could help me and others out
Cheers Blinard
Ive used Cheeky's Datasheet to work out what ap I would be contributing to the raid but what I wouldnt mind knowing is the actual damage output and dps it is providing to that individual with that increase to there ap so it could give me a rough idea as to the effect it is having on the raid as a whole.
Our guild uses the WWS report on each run and I have looked at myself and the other melee types and there is nothing there in the way as to show how much exspose weakness has added to there damage or mine.
If this was possible we could then compare out BM/MM damage with that of SV to see how much of a difference there is. Even though you might slightly be decreasing your own personal dps you may be increasing it elsewhere with others and wouldnt mind knowing how much more
Just something that I have been thinking about and wanted to see if anyone else could help me and others out
Cheers Blinard
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Originally Posted by Blinard
Hi guys and gals. The question that I have is in regards to Expose Weakness in raids. I was just wanting to find out if anyone knows of a mod or a way to find out exactly how much damage exspose weakness is adding to other melee classes in your raid.
Ive used Cheeky's Datasheet to work out what ap I would be contributing to the raid but what I wouldnt mind knowing is the actual damage output and dps it is providing to that individual with that increase to there ap so it could give me a rough idea as to the effect it is having on the raid as a whole. Our guild uses the WWS report on each run and I have looked at myself and the other melee types and there is nothing there in the way as to show how much exspose weakness has added to there damage or mine. If this was possible we could then compare out BM/MM damage with that of SV to see how much of a difference there is. Even though you might slightly be decreasing your own personal dps you may be increasing it elsewhere with others and wouldnt mind knowing how much more Just something that I have been thinking about and wanted to see if anyone else could help me and others out Cheers Blinard |
have a look at page 16 of this thread
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
First post, this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16943-h...ycraft_within/
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Based on this, the DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as (Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3 |
Last edited by QuiggyB : 10/11/07 at 9:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
First post, this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16943-h...ycraft_within/
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(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3
Psysical DPS=hunters (including yourself i guess)?? rogues. And what more ? We normally have one 2h warr and one dual wield warr. and 2 tanks and 2 druid tanks. Should have of thee druids/warriors be a part of the [Physical DPS in Raid ?
Yes, you count as physical DPS for that equation, since you benefit from EW just as much as any other physical damage dealer. Also, this includes hunter pets and felguards, if for some reason you have one. And last but not least, this includes tanks, either feral or warriors, (who, more importantly, gain tps increase via the extra AP).
I don't suppose it will do that much for paladins tanks, since they gain threat through spelldamage more, unless i'm mistaken.
I don't suppose it will do that much for paladins tanks, since they gain threat through spelldamage more, unless i'm mistaken.
i specced 7/20/34 recently and i can say that im loveing it, im outputting more dps as surv then i did as BM tho im not hitcapped yet i need some more testing but im liking it so far
this is my spec
my profile
this is my spec
my profile
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Originally Posted by eclipsedk
i specced 7/20/34 recently and i can say that im loveing it, im outputting more dps as surv then i did as BM tho im not hitcapped yet i need some more testing but im liking it so far
this is my spec my profile |
dude you are hitcapped ! only need 90 hit rating as surv! cuzz you get 3 % from talents!
I've been a Survival hunter for about two months now, and have had no problem maintaining a consistent hit rating cap (right now I'm over the cap ceiling), and have been able to pick out a few pieces of equipment that do not have hit rating on them to help bolster some other stats (namely my critical strike rating). What I was curious about; is it a feasible thought to NOT take Surefooted as a Survival Talent and place it in other area's of the Survival Tree? With 3/3 in Surefooted, 3% to Hit Chance is nice, however can be compensated for with the appropriate gear (however, would it hurt other stats, named agility and critical strike rating?) I'm also not sure if a 15% increased resist rate to ensnaring effects is viable in a raid setting (considering that my current spec uses 3/3 Hawkeye, so I am quite far from the actual fight).
Any thoughts, or any prior experience NOT taking Surefooted, as well as the pro's and con's of it? Right now I'm neutral on the idea, and would theorize that the idea behind not taking Surefooted directly correlates to the amount of gear you have available (More gear choices can lend more versatility).
Any thoughts, or any prior experience NOT taking Surefooted, as well as the pro's and con's of it? Right now I'm neutral on the idea, and would theorize that the idea behind not taking Surefooted directly correlates to the amount of gear you have available (More gear choices can lend more versatility).
Well, i've been thinking about that for a while, since, with no gear change whatsoever, after changing from MM and BM to SV, i 've been stuck with lots of +hit rating that are taking up stat points from my gear.
However, i decided against it. Why? because you probably want to go for EW, LR and TOTH higher in the tree, and you will basically need those points there. Sure, you can invest them somewhere else, if it pleases you, but the really low tier survival talents are pretty much crap for raiding (except Hawk Eye and the 2 Slaying talents). You will not need any of the following EVER for raids: Savage Strikes, Improved Wing Clip, Deflection or anything more than 1 point in Trap mastery.
On the other hand, Survivalist is decent, but, personally, i found that the times i DO die during a raid is during wipes or disconnects.
So, as it stands right now, i'm basically waiting for the alternative SV items i want to finally drop so i can cut some of that excess hit rating.
However, i decided against it. Why? because you probably want to go for EW, LR and TOTH higher in the tree, and you will basically need those points there. Sure, you can invest them somewhere else, if it pleases you, but the really low tier survival talents are pretty much crap for raiding (except Hawk Eye and the 2 Slaying talents). You will not need any of the following EVER for raids: Savage Strikes, Improved Wing Clip, Deflection or anything more than 1 point in Trap mastery.
On the other hand, Survivalist is decent, but, personally, i found that the times i DO die during a raid is during wipes or disconnects.
So, as it stands right now, i'm basically waiting for the alternative SV items i want to finally drop so i can cut some of that excess hit rating.
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
dude you are hitcapped ! only need 90 hit rating as surv! cuzz you get 3 % from talents!
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
Based on this, the DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as
(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3 Psysical DPS=hunters (including yourself i guess)?? rogues. And what more ? We normally have one 2h warr and one dual wield warr. and 2 tanks and 2 druid tanks. Should have of thee druids/warriors be a part of the [Physical DPS in Raid ? |
Basically, anything that isn't magic or poison.
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Originally Posted by eclipsedk
i specced 7/20/34 recently and i can say that im loveing it, im outputting more dps as surv then i did as BM tho im not hitcapped yet i need some more testing but im liking it so far
this is my spec my profile |
Nice Eclipsedk ! What are you doing rotation wise? I'm still trying to settle into a strong survival rotation after being BM for a long time. I don't have any points in Imp AotH since I tend to botch up on my shots enough without random haste procs. :P
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Originally Posted by eclipsedk
i specced 7/20/34 recently and i can say that im loveing it, im outputting more dps as surv then i did as BM tho im not hitcapped yet i need some more testing but im liking it so far
this is my spec my profile |
fwiw I dont think those 5 points in IAotH are getting you anything. If you modify your shot rotation to take advantage of it you will lose dps, and if you dont its not really doing much. Putting 3 points in Humanoid Slaying would get you more than 2% from focused fire on most of the fights too. Even though its not the most broadly loved talent putting those points into MT would actually net you a DPS increase while IAotH doesnt.
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Originally Posted by Enova
Well, i've been thinking about that for a while, since, with no gear change whatsoever, after changing from MM and BM to SV, i 've been stuck with lots of +hit rating that are taking up stat points from my gear.
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As deep as you are in SV you might consider freeing up one point from any of a number of places and getting Readiness. Extra MD, FD, Rapid Fire, Deterrence, Trap. Nice little get out of jail free card on several levels. Even more so in an arena.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
As deep as you are in SV you might consider freeing up one point from any of a number of places and getting Readiness. Extra MD, FD, Rapid Fire, Deterrence, Trap. Nice little get out of jail free card on several levels. Even more so in an arena.
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However, i doubt i'll go anywhere near an arena any time soon; i've set my mind on PVEing with PVE gear exclusively - sort of a matter of pride for me.
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Originally Posted by Enova
Yes, you count as physical DPS for that equation, since you benefit from EW just as much as any other physical damage dealer. Also, this includes hunter pets and felguards, if for some reason you have one. And last but not least, this includes tanks, either feral or warriors, (who, more importantly, gain tps increase via the extra AP).
I don't suppose it will do that much for paladins tanks, since they gain threat through spelldamage more, unless i'm mistaken. |
We have this full geared T5 rogue and a full t5 TANK. they both get a 200 exstra ap. The rogue is gonna do way more dps, but the tank is tank he wont do as much more as the rogue or am i wrong?
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
OKay might be me being a bit tired but.
We have this full geared T5 rogue and a full t5 TANK. they both get a 200 exstra ap. The rogue is gonna do way more dps, but the tank is tank he wont do as much more as the rogue or am i wrong? |
And, as a side note, if you're reffering to Expose Weakness, it's not a flat 200 AP, it's 25% of the hunter's total buffed agility.
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Originally Posted by Enova
You are right; the tank will still do a lot less damage than the rogue. BUT, and i capitalized that on purpose, 200 AP also increases the threat the warrior generates. In fights where threat is an issue, that makes quite a difference, helping the tank keep up with that overaggroing warlock
And, as a side note, if you're reffering to Expose Weakness, it's not a flat 200 AP, it's 25% of the hunter's total buffed agility. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
OKay might be me being a bit tired but.
We have this full geared T5 rogue and a full t5 TANK. they both get a 200 exstra ap. The rogue is gonna do way more dps, but the tank is tank he wont do as much more as the rogue or am i wrong? |
Question is whats the diference in TPS gains from the buff. Would be nice if someone smart made some reasonable tests on warriors/druids to find the formula to count tps gained from AP, Windfury, Inspiration etc.
Last edited by Gruknok : 10/18/07 at 12:33 PM.
Longtime reader first post
If I want to keep 3/3 EW and TotH for now, what would provide the best DPS boost with the last 5 points other than MT and IatH?
(edit: I'm BM till I get home was doing arena)
If I want to keep 3/3 EW and TotH for now, what would provide the best DPS boost with the last 5 points other than MT and IatH?
(edit: I'm BM till I get home was doing arena)
MT. With a 1:1.5 rotation you will drop dps switching to a 1:1 rotation when IAotH is up, and if you dont swap rotations you will not see a dps gain from IAotH. Either way MT is a 30 dps upgrade if you dont swap rotations and a 50dps upgrade if you do. On top of that you can have readiness for 1 point after you get MT. FWIW once you get around 35% crit unbuffed you only really need 2 points in EW.
Depending on the speed of your weapon, you could also just put a point or two into Imp Hawk. Just enough so that you won't start clipping on your 1:1.5 rotation when it proc's.
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Originally Posted by Deathcabby
Depending on the speed of your weapon, you could also just put a point or two into Imp Hawk. Just enough so that you won't start clipping on your 1:1.5 rotation when it proc's.
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I believe with Quiver I'm at ~2.46 weapon speed from 2.9. 6% haste would bring me down to just above 2.3 correct? That would still be enough time for a 1:1.5 rotation with less wasted time.
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Originally Posted by Deathcabby
Depending on the speed of your weapon, you could also just put a point or two into Imp Hawk. Just enough so that you won't start clipping on your 1:1.5 rotation when it proc's.
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The max dps spec seems to be 3/5 RWS and 3/3 Expose Weakness (16 dps more than 5/5 MT). To get that you completely lose Thrill of the Hunt though. Either way we are debating +/- 20 dps on a number that is around 1200. I'd pick the talents that give you close to max dps + the utility you like to have. For me right now its 5/5 MT with readiness and with the impending troll weapon skill nerf the freedom to put 3 points in surefooted. I also get 2 points in TotH, 2 in EW, and a point left over for wyvern sting to avoid pvp respecs.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
According to the spreadsheet of love from Cheeky, 3/3 barrage + 3/5 IAotH using a 1:1.5 rotation all the way through (raid buffed) is still a 17dps drop vs 5/5 MT and you have to give up readiness and can have at most 1 point in surefooted or imp feign. Each point you stick in quick shots adds about 2dps over the previous point. These are extremely small gains for each talent point.
The max dps spec seems to be 3/5 RWS and 3/3 Expose Weakness (16 dps more than 5/5 MT). To get that you completely lose Thrill of the Hunt though. Either way we are debating +/- 20 dps on a number that is around 1200. I'd pick the talents that give you close to max dps + the utility you like to have. For me right now its 5/5 MT with readiness and with the impending troll weapon skill nerf the freedom to put 3 points in surefooted. I also get 2 points in TotH, 2 in EW, and a point left over for wyvern sting to avoid pvp respecs. |
Personally I love 3/3 TotH, not sure I could ever drop it
Looking through some information I do have a question. How do 2 EW's work in a raid? If a hunter with less agi proc's EW when a more powerful one is up, does it refresh it, override it or do nothing (more powerful spell is active)? Same thing if a more powerful EW proc's when a lesser one is up?
Last edited by Adenhart : 10/17/07 at 7:44 PM.
Hunter with less agi cant overwrite stronger EW. Mob will have just one best EW. If hunter do have temporary agi buff then makes him better than other survival hunters, like from [Badge of Tenacity], then while active he can get his EW up. After badge effect will expire, other hunters will overwrite this EW with theirs.
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Originally Posted by Adenhart
You bring up a good point. I'm thinking that at some point 3/3 Barrage and 2/5 IAotH would be better than MT.
I believe with Quiver I'm at ~2.46 weapon speed from 2.9. 6% haste would bring me down to just above 2.3 correct? That would still be enough time for a 1:1.5 rotation with less wasted time. |
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Originally Posted by Enova
Yes, you count as physical DPS for that equation, since you benefit from EW just as much as any other physical damage dealer. Also, this includes hunter pets and felguards, if for some reason you have one. And last but not least, this includes tanks, either feral or warriors, (who, more importantly, gain tps increase via the extra AP).
I don't suppose it will do that much for paladins tanks, since they gain threat through spelldamage more, unless i'm mistaken. |
some SU Advice on Shot rotations
hello, my guild is in a situation where we don't have any Survival hunters but instead we take two BM hunters (me included) instead. I want to spec survival because I feel that I can contribute more to our guild than I am at the moment with just my own personal DPS. i am aware of what sort of itemization survival spec requires and I have been working on my gear for the past few weeks getting agility items/gems to replace the items I have that don't have any agility buffs on them, and I'm happy to say that i am able to achieve 750agility un-buffed as a BM hunter
I have not raided with survival spec and I am wondering what sort of shot rotations would be best to use with survival spec.
if this is a double post of some sort i apologize, if there is already a post regarding this please forward me to it, it will be much appreciated thank you.
I have not raided with survival spec and I am wondering what sort of shot rotations would be best to use with survival spec.
if this is a double post of some sort i apologize, if there is already a post regarding this please forward me to it, it will be much appreciated thank you.
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Originally Posted by CrazYmonkeY
I have not raided with survival spec and I am wondering what sort of shot rotations would be best to use with survival spec.
if this is a double post of some sort i apologize, if there is already a post regarding this please forward me to it, it will be much appreciated thank you. |
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Multi-shot, Auto, Steady
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady
The first rotation works best if you sacrifice a couple points in TotH and get 2/3 Expose Weakness to get yourself Barrage. The second rotation really only works if you put some points into Imp. Arcane Shot. I prefer the second rotation on single targets due to arcane shot not being mitigated by armor, but use the first rotation on fights that involve multiple targets. The key with both rotations is getting your timing as tight as possible to delay your auto shot after two specials as little as possible. I suggest getting Quartz, which has an indicator of lag on the cast bar.
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Originally Posted by ugla
Survival shot rotation is just like a MM shot rotation, 1.5:1. That is, you use 1 special after an auto shot and then 2 specials after an auto shot. There are 2 common rotations I've seen used:
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Multi-shot, Auto, Steady Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady The first rotation works best if you sacrifice a couple points in TotH and get 2/3 Expose Weakness to get yourself Barrage. The second rotation really only works if you put some points into Imp. Arcane Shot. I prefer the second rotation on single targets due to arcane shot not being mitigated by armor, but use the first rotation on fights that involve multiple targets. The key with both rotations is getting your timing as tight as possible to delay your auto shot after two specials as little as possible. I suggest getting Quartz, which has an indicator of lag on the cast bar. |
Secondly, in general: I'm trying a 7/20/34 spec as Survival, and I'm finding that I like the spec, but I really feel as if my DPS has dropped off significantly from when I was 41/20, even considering the buff from EW I bring. I'm not sure if it's just that I'm not used to rotations (especially because the best weapon I was ever able to get was Sunfury, and I suspect Wolfslayer is too fast for a non-BM rotation) and screwing something up majorly (I really suspect part of it is this, because I couldn't even really accurately describe my rotation). I basically do a steady/auto rotation with an arcane or multishot thrown in after every other autoshot. It may also be that I simply don't have the gear to go survival: I was top 3 in the meters in my old guild before it died, but the DPS there was a lot worse than the guild I joined, and as I've always prided myself on being way above the average, being anywhere from 7-11th on damage meters really doesn't sit well with me. That being said, does my spec simply just not work; do I not have the gear to pull off survival right now? I'm sorry for such a vague question, but I've been trying to isolate the problem, but I just haven't been able to find any specific cause.
Thanks a lot in advance.
| I basically do a steady/auto rotation with an arcane or multishot thrown in after every other autoshot. |
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Originally Posted by ugla
Survival shot rotation is just like a MM shot rotation, 1.5:1. That is, you use 1 special after an auto shot and then 2 specials after an auto shot. There are 2 common rotations I've seen used:
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Multi-shot, Auto, Steady Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady |
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Originally Posted by Alaszun
First off, a more specific question: for the above rotations, what would a /castsequence macro for the above look like?
Secondly, in general: I'm trying a 7/20/34 spec as Survival, and I'm finding that I like the spec. Thanks a lot in advance. |
Cast sequence macros (1.5:1 rotations) and 5x/x/x SV spec don't work well together.
Every haste you get (rapid/zerk/trinkets/iaoth) breaks /castsequence that is CD dependent.
2.
Macro would look something like:
/castsequence reset=target Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot,*,*,*,*
reset=target - you can skip this or change "target" with other condition (time, modifier key etc..)
b)
*,*,* are extra Steady Shot, Auto Shots. number of them depends on your weapon speed and 10seconds of MS CD. (how many Steady-Auto +1x arcane +1x MS can you fire in 10 seconds?)
c)
Macro is not optimal. I'm currently working with it trying to perfect it as much as possible, with 2.1 I respecced all my hunters into BM and they all have serious problems with MM spec they use for some pet unfriendly encounters.
The one that I gave you is based on MS CD and therefore doesn't fire arcane with frequency it could. (looses almost 50% arcane shot damage... since it fires Arcane and Multi at 1:1 ratio).
d)
Its possible to go SV with IAoth but you will need to do 1.5:1 rotation manually then drop to 1:1 rotation when IAoth procs. Or use Steady-Auto macro, weave arcane/multi manually when on cd, when IAoth procs go Steady-Auto only.
This WWS is from last night raid and upper macro was used in fight. Rage Winterchill is good in raid test dummy. There was some Steady-Auto(+rapid/zerk) usage towards the end of encounter because mana issues. Witch pretty much shows main problem with 1.5:1 rotations. And I have alchemy stone.
Zek - WWS
Its not bad, but I can do better without macro.
I advise that you try 1.5:1 rotation with 0 haste first. Get hang of manual timing and then try 1.5:1 <-> 1:1 switching due haste procs.
Hi guys,
I'm taking up my hunter again seriously and may be playing as Survival spec. I'm in a unique position in that on Australian servers, ping makes 1.5:1 rotations quite difficult - or almost impossible - to execute properly. Starting steady ~0.2s before auto and then mashing arcane/multi will still clip my auto by 0.2-0.3s. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the timeline goes like this (S2 xbow 3.00 speed pre-haste). My calculations are likely wrong as I'm a druid foremost, so this is my intuitive grasping of hunter mechanics. If it's wrong I'd appreciate correction, but the goal is ultimately to illustrate that 1:1.5 strikes me as unviable in a raiding context.
-0.2s: Begin steady
0.0s: Auto fires
0.25s: Steady is registered, begins cast.
0.25s-1.75s: Steady casting [NB: I have forgotten if steady is effected by quiver haste], multi-mashing.
1.75s: Steady finishes cast
2.00s: Multi-mashing is registered on keyboard.
2.30s: Multi-mashing registered by server.
2.63s: Auto supposed to fire
2.80s: Multi fires
2.80s: Auto actually fires
Figures are intentionally 'fudged'. Time is lost in a few areas;
- Having to steady prior to auto, lag varies greatly so I must cast this 0.2s before auto to ensure I don't clip an auto if my ping is lower than usual.
- Multi-shot + steady shot registering some time after the server recognises my steady shot has finished casting. /stopcasting? (Oh please, god, no, make it stop...)
In sum: The top marks hunter in my guild, and on my server, simply use a priority system and fire one special between each auto. He claims to do reasonable DPS comparable to the BM hunter depending on fights, although I can't help but think the DPS loss would be significant. Does anyone have any views on the viability of this rotation (perhaps with a 2.7ish weapon), or should I just clip my shots slightly?
I'm taking up my hunter again seriously and may be playing as Survival spec. I'm in a unique position in that on Australian servers, ping makes 1.5:1 rotations quite difficult - or almost impossible - to execute properly. Starting steady ~0.2s before auto and then mashing arcane/multi will still clip my auto by 0.2-0.3s. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the timeline goes like this (S2 xbow 3.00 speed pre-haste). My calculations are likely wrong as I'm a druid foremost, so this is my intuitive grasping of hunter mechanics. If it's wrong I'd appreciate correction, but the goal is ultimately to illustrate that 1:1.5 strikes me as unviable in a raiding context.
-0.2s: Begin steady
0.0s: Auto fires
0.25s: Steady is registered, begins cast.
0.25s-1.75s: Steady casting [NB: I have forgotten if steady is effected by quiver haste], multi-mashing.
1.75s: Steady finishes cast
2.00s: Multi-mashing is registered on keyboard.
2.30s: Multi-mashing registered by server.
2.63s: Auto supposed to fire
2.80s: Multi fires
2.80s: Auto actually fires
Figures are intentionally 'fudged'. Time is lost in a few areas;
- Having to steady prior to auto, lag varies greatly so I must cast this 0.2s before auto to ensure I don't clip an auto if my ping is lower than usual.
- Multi-shot + steady shot registering some time after the server recognises my steady shot has finished casting. /stopcasting? (Oh please, god, no, make it stop...)
In sum: The top marks hunter in my guild, and on my server, simply use a priority system and fire one special between each auto. He claims to do reasonable DPS comparable to the BM hunter depending on fights, although I can't help but think the DPS loss would be significant. Does anyone have any views on the viability of this rotation (perhaps with a 2.7ish weapon), or should I just clip my shots slightly?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Maynard
Hi guys,
I'm taking up my hunter again seriously and may be playing as Survival spec. I'm in a unique position in that on Australian servers, ping makes 1.5:1 rotations quite difficult - or almost impossible - to execute properly. Starting steady ~0.2s before auto and then mashing arcane/multi will still clip my auto by 0.2-0.3s. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the timeline goes like this (S2 xbow 3.00 speed pre-haste). My calculations are likely wrong as I'm a druid foremost, so this is my intuitive grasping of hunter mechanics. If it's wrong I'd appreciate correction, but the goal is ultimately to illustrate that 1:1.5 strikes me as unviable in a raiding context. -0.2s: Begin steady 0.0s: Auto fires 0.25s: Steady is registered, begins cast. 0.25s-1.75s: Steady casting [NB: I have forgotten if steady is effected by quiver haste], multi-mashing. 1.75s: Steady finishes cast 2.00s: Multi-mashing is registered on keyboard. 2.30s: Multi-mashing registered by server. 2.63s: Auto supposed to fire 2.80s: Multi fires 2.80s: Auto actually fires Figures are intentionally 'fudged'. Time is lost in a few areas; - Having to steady prior to auto, lag varies greatly so I must cast this 0.2s before auto to ensure I don't clip an auto if my ping is lower than usual. - Multi-shot + steady shot registering some time after the server recognises my steady shot has finished casting. /stopcasting? (Oh please, god, no, make it stop...) In sum: The top marks hunter in my guild, and on my server, simply use a priority system and fire one special between each auto. He claims to do reasonable DPS comparable to the BM hunter depending on fights, although I can't help but think the DPS loss would be significant. Does anyone have any views on the viability of this rotation (perhaps with a 2.7ish weapon), or should I just clip my shots slightly? |
this is exactly what i have found to be true in my logs with 300ms ping. (and also exactly how its modeled in cheeky's spreadsheet.)
I've considered using stopcasting, but im not sure its possible to add on to a macro which you spam as much as possible, you'd have to start pushing your macro, then wait during steady cast, then push the macro again during the lag time....etc...etc.... it would end up being very difficult. (especially considering that NOT using a macro, makes this shot rotation next to impossible.)
Last edited by Krytos : 10/22/07 at 3:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
1.
Cast sequence macros (1.5:1 rotations) and 5x/x/x SV spec don't work well together. Every haste you get (rapid/zerk/trinkets/iaoth) breaks /castsequence that is CD dependent. d) Its possible to go SV with IAoth but you will need to do 1.5:1 rotation manually then drop to 1:1 rotation when IAoth procs. Or use Steady-Auto macro, weave arcane/multi manually when on cd, when IAoth procs go Steady-Auto only. I advise that you try 1.5:1 rotation with 0 haste first. Get hang of manual timing and then try 1.5:1 <-> 1:1 switching due haste procs. |
Would a spec something like:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
be a better spec for this, then, given it loses the complications of IAOTH? And, in that case, does the optimal 1.5:1 involve using Multi-Shot over Steady Shot? I really like both focused fire and IAOTH as talents in concept, but it seems like IAOTH is hurting a lot more than it's helping. If I dropped to a 1:1 whenever haste effects procced, would I be better off in the long run, or am I still hurting myself compared to a 1.5:1 rotation, even with the 40% improved attack speed? I'd try to set this up myself on the spreadsheets, but I run Open Office, and I have no idea how to actually set up the rotations in OO.
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Originally Posted by Alaszun
And, in that case, does the optimal 1.5:1 involve using Multi-Shot over Steady Shot? I really like both focused fire and IAOTH as talents in concept, but it seems like IAOTH is hurting a lot more than it's helping. If I dropped to a 1:1 whenever haste effects procced, would I be better off in the long run, or am I still hurting myself compared to a 1.5:1 rotation
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Dropping to a 1:1 rotation with 15% haste at best evens out with staying 1:1.5, but with IAotH you lose the dps from whatever else you would use those 5 points for.
I find I do more DPS using 1:1.5 than using Rapid Fire and 1:1. I generally only use Rapid Fire these days when Bloodlusted (or combined with other Haste effects in general).
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Originally Posted by Maynard
Hi guys,
I'm taking up my hunter again seriously and may be playing as Survival spec. I'm in a unique position in that on Australian servers, ping makes 1.5:1 rotations quite difficult - or almost impossible - to execute properly. Starting steady ~0.2s before auto and then mashing arcane/multi will still clip my auto by 0.2-0.3s. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the timeline goes like this (S2 xbow 3.00 speed pre-haste). My calculations are likely wrong as I'm a druid foremost, so this is my intuitive grasping of hunter mechanics. If it's wrong I'd appreciate correction, but the goal is ultimately to illustrate that 1:1.5 strikes me as unviable in a raiding context. -0.2s: Begin steady 0.0s: Auto fires 0.25s: Steady is registered, begins cast. 0.25s-1.75s: Steady casting [NB: I have forgotten if steady is effected by quiver haste], multi-mashing. 1.75s: Steady finishes cast 2.00s: Multi-mashing is registered on keyboard. 2.30s: Multi-mashing registered by server. 2.63s: Auto supposed to fire 2.80s: Multi fires 2.80s: Auto actually fires Figures are intentionally 'fudged'. Time is lost in a few areas; - Having to steady prior to auto, lag varies greatly so I must cast this 0.2s before auto to ensure I don't clip an auto if my ping is lower than usual. - Multi-shot + steady shot registering some time after the server recognises my steady shot has finished casting. /stopcasting? (Oh please, god, no, make it stop...) In sum: The top marks hunter in my guild, and on my server, simply use a priority system and fire one special between each auto. He claims to do reasonable DPS comparable to the BM hunter depending on fights, although I can't help but think the DPS loss would be significant. Does anyone have any views on the viability of this rotation (perhaps with a 2.7ish weapon), or should I just clip my shots slightly? |
To start with I had my auto/steady on a macro and my dps increased, but after a while and thinking about it I realised that with the latency that we get here in Oz that it would be even more dps for me to manually time my shots and once I started manually timing my auto/steady my dps climbed even higher and my fellow BM hunters were surprised how I improved my dps without improving my gear.
Manually timing your 1:1 rotation is very easy, particularly if you have an addon such as Quartz, which adds your latency onto the end of your cast bar. This, in conjunction with the autoshot timer bar (also provided by quartz), lets you see when you can cast your steadyshot again without clipping your autoshot.
I found that it does take a bit of getting used to, watching the castbar, autoshotbar and still be aware of everything in your environment, but it does make a difference.
Also with just a 1:1 rotation, I find that I almost never need mana With a raidbuffed crit of 40ish% and TotH and if youre lucky Blessing and Judgement of Wisdom the mana just keeps rolling in.
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Originally Posted by Adenhart
Use MS after Steady before auto.
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I'm sorry, I phrased my post wrong up there: I meant that with 3/3 Barrage, it becomes true that on all the fights I can (i.e. no CCed mobs around), I should be doing an auto steady auto steady multi rotation instead of an auto steady auto steady arcane, yes?
Thanks for the replies guys. Manual 1:1 it is. I'm just glad that I don't need a macro to top charts - would've been a dreary future.
Cheers!
Cheers!
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Originally Posted by Maynard
Thanks for the replies guys. Manual 1:1 it is. I'm just glad that I don't need a macro to top charts - would've been a dreary future.
Cheers! |
You're welcome. Don't get me wrong though, if our latency (yours and mine), was like our counterparts in the good ol' U.S of A then a macro would most probably help substantially.
The reason manually timing our rotations is better, is because with a macro eg auto/steady we have to wait for the server to send back the information that the auto has fired before the casting of the steady can begin. With latency as high as we get in Australia it means we have to wait up to 0.4 of a second extra on each shot for the server to send back the information.
If our latency was nice and low, say 50ms not 400, then timing our shots manually would become difficult as we would only have 0.05 of a second to react and hit the next shot instead of 0.4 seconds and this would be more easily achieved by mashing a macro (unless you have really really really super good reflexes). At least thats how i gather it works.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by butcherkk
Survival with 3/3 toth and [Black Bow of the Betrayer] will most likely have too much mana. RWS in that case would be better imo.
This is so not true tbh. If you use AoTh all the time i am atm running out of mana after about 4 minutes (taking no pots). a lot of the important fights in this game are 10+ minutes long so tbh you cant get to a point where you have too much mana! |
Also, since I'm rolling with a 3.0 speed weapon, I've begun to notice very frequently that Arcane Shot always comes up ~.1-.2 seconds after autoshot. My options for disposable fillers are scatter, wyvern, and possible one point out of EW. Currently I sit around 47% crit raid buffed. Is that enough to keep up 2/3 EW?
It seems like having Arcane Shot up earlier would improve the consistency of my rotation; there wouldn't be as many situations where multi comes up shortly after and I end up using multi instead, effectively starting the whole thing over. Could that increase in effectiveness make up for the second or two that melee doesn't have +260AP?
Last edited by Arvak- : 10/23/07 at 2:43 AM.
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Originally Posted by Arvak-
Also, since I'm rolling with a 3.0 speed weapon, I've begun to notice very frequently that Arcane Shot always comes up ~.1-.2 seconds after autoshot. My options for disposable fillers are scatter, wyvern, and possible one point out of EW. Currently I sit around 47% crit raid buffed. Is that enough to keep up 2/3 EW?
It seems like having Arcane Shot up earlier would improve the consistency of my rotation; there wouldn't be as many situations where multi comes up shortly after and I end up using multi instead, effectively starting the whole thing over. Could that increase in effectiveness make up for the second or two that melee doesn't have +260AP? |
As for mana, there are few fights that aspect of the viper and fel mana potions won't keep me in mana. Extremely long fights without breaks are the main ones, right now specifically Mother Shahraz (not a long fight but she has a mana drain that eats your mana quick) and Illidari Council, which is just exceptionally long. Basically once I'm out of mana I just go to a 1:1 rotation to regen mana and then use 1:1.5 when I use cooldowns.
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Originally Posted by Alaszun
I'm sorry, I phrased my post wrong up there: I meant that with 3/3 Barrage, it becomes true that on all the fights I can (i.e. no CCed mobs around), I should be doing an auto steady auto steady multi rotation instead of an auto steady auto steady arcane, yes?
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
I actually did some expirmenting with /stopcasting macros this week. and my ping hovering around 300ms
Normally this produces 2.8 seconds between autoshots durring the parts of the rotation where 2 specials are used. My logs show this.
Currently, I have a steady auto macro (like a bm hunter would) and i manually thread in arcane shot and multi-shot to produce the standard 1.5:1 rotation.
i changed my arcaneshot to a macro that reads
"/stopcasting
/cast arcane shot(rank9)"
using quartz i can see when the appropriate time to use my arcane stop casting macro should begin due to lag.
this greatly improved the portion of the rotation where there are 2 specials to 1 auto shot (the part where i used arcaneshot after a steadyshot, and before an autoshot).
However, it delays the next casting of steady shot, and produces a delay for the part of the rotation that is just steady shot auto shot. Under normal circumstances without stopcasting macro, this part of the rotation was performing as it should, with autoshots occuring ever 2.5-2.6 seconds.
long story short, it tightened the rotation portion with 2 specials, but ruined the rotation with just 1 special. For a net effect of 0 increase in dps.
06:10'16.107 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1402
06:10'17.565 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 621
06:10'18.082 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1859 Arcane damage
06:10'18.737 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1528
06:10'21.299 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 703
06:10'22.010 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 639
06:10'23.535 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 635
06:10'23.869 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1858 Arcane damage
06:10'24.814 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 674
06:10'26.955 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 581 (49 blocked)
06:10'27.682 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1406
06:10'29.156 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 652
06:10'29.523 Krytos's Arcane Shot hits Dr. Boom for 723 Arcane damage
06:10'30.158 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1553
06:10'33.056 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 661
06:10'33.376 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 584
06:10'34.915 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 643
06:10'35.231 Krytos's Arcane Shot hits Dr. Boom for 723 Arcane damage
06:10'35.888 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1412
06:10'38.499 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 575
06:10'39.309 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 582
06:10'40.794 Krytos's Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1454
06:10'41.506 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1742 Arcane damage
06:10'41.818 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 561
06:10'44.361 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 607
06:10'44.979 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 586
Normally this produces 2.8 seconds between autoshots durring the parts of the rotation where 2 specials are used. My logs show this.
Currently, I have a steady auto macro (like a bm hunter would) and i manually thread in arcane shot and multi-shot to produce the standard 1.5:1 rotation.
i changed my arcaneshot to a macro that reads
"/stopcasting
/cast arcane shot(rank9)"
using quartz i can see when the appropriate time to use my arcane stop casting macro should begin due to lag.
this greatly improved the portion of the rotation where there are 2 specials to 1 auto shot (the part where i used arcaneshot after a steadyshot, and before an autoshot).
However, it delays the next casting of steady shot, and produces a delay for the part of the rotation that is just steady shot auto shot. Under normal circumstances without stopcasting macro, this part of the rotation was performing as it should, with autoshots occuring ever 2.5-2.6 seconds.
long story short, it tightened the rotation portion with 2 specials, but ruined the rotation with just 1 special. For a net effect of 0 increase in dps.
06:10'16.107 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1402
06:10'17.565 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 621
06:10'18.082 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1859 Arcane damage
06:10'18.737 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1528
06:10'21.299 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 703
06:10'22.010 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 639
06:10'23.535 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 635
06:10'23.869 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1858 Arcane damage
06:10'24.814 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 674
06:10'26.955 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 581 (49 blocked)
06:10'27.682 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1406
06:10'29.156 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 652
06:10'29.523 Krytos's Arcane Shot hits Dr. Boom for 723 Arcane damage
06:10'30.158 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1553
06:10'33.056 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 661
06:10'33.376 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 584
06:10'34.915 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 643
06:10'35.231 Krytos's Arcane Shot hits Dr. Boom for 723 Arcane damage
06:10'35.888 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1412
06:10'38.499 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 575
06:10'39.309 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 582
06:10'40.794 Krytos's Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1454
06:10'41.506 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1742 Arcane damage
06:10'41.818 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 561
06:10'44.361 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 607
06:10'44.979 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 586
Last edited by Krytos : 10/24/07 at 7:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by Krytos
I actually did some expirmenting with /stopcasting macros this week. and my ping hovering around 300ms
Normally this produces 2.8 seconds between autoshots durring the parts of the rotation where 2 specials are used. My logs show this. Currently, I have a steady auto macro (like a bm hunter would) and i manually thread in arcane shot and multi-shot to produce the standard 1.5:1 rotation. i changed my arcaneshot to a macro that reads "/stopcasting /cast arcane shot(rank9)" using quartz i can see when the appropriate time to use my arcane stop casting macro should begin due to lag. this greatly improved the portion of the rotation where there are 2 specials to 1 auto shot (the part where i used arcaneshot after a steadyshot, and before an autoshot). However, it delays the next casting of steady shot, and produces a delay for the part of the rotation that is just steady shot auto shot. Under normal circumstances without stopcasting macro, this part of the rotation was performing as it should, with autoshots occuring ever 2.5-2.6 seconds. long story short, it tightened the rotation portion with 2 specials, but ruined the rotation with just 1 special. For a net effect of 0 increase in dps. 06:10'16.107 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1402 06:10'17.565 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 621 06:10'18.082 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1859 Arcane damage 06:10'18.737 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1528 06:10'21.299 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 703 06:10'22.010 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 639 06:10'23.535 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 635 06:10'23.869 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1858 Arcane damage 06:10'24.814 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 674 06:10'26.955 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 581 (49 blocked) 06:10'27.682 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1406 06:10'29.156 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 652 06:10'29.523 Krytos's Arcane Shot hits Dr. Boom for 723 Arcane damage 06:10'30.158 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1553 06:10'33.056 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 661 06:10'33.376 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 584 06:10'34.915 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 643 06:10'35.231 Krytos's Arcane Shot hits Dr. Boom for 723 Arcane damage 06:10'35.888 Krytos's Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1412 06:10'38.499 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 575 06:10'39.309 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 582 06:10'40.794 Krytos's Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1454 06:10'41.506 Krytos's Arcane Shot crits Dr. Boom for 1742 Arcane damage 06:10'41.818 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 561 06:10'44.361 Krytos's Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 607 06:10'44.979 Krytos's Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 586 |
I am looking for advice on Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes vs Rift Stalker Mantle socketed with 8 agi gems. I just can't figure out if the haste is worth it. I use 1:1.5 rotation if that's of any significance.
Thanks for your help in advance.
Thanks for your help in advance.
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Originally Posted by Thornbloom
I am looking for advice on Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes vs Rift Stalker Mantle socketed with 8 agi gems. I just can't figure out if the haste is worth it. I use 1:1.5 rotation if that's of any significance.
Thanks for your help in advance. |
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t9816-hu...s_development/
However, on a quick glance, i'd say go the 2/5 tier 5 bonus as much as possible; from what i've seen, that bonus is insane even for non-BM hunters;
Also, haste only seems viable if you stack a bit more than one item, maybe enough for a BM equivalent speed
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Originally Posted by Thornbloom
I am looking for advice on Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes vs Rift Stalker Mantle socketed with 8 agi gems. I just can't figure out if the haste is worth it. I use 1:1.5 rotation if that's of any significance.
Thanks for your help in advance. |
the fact is: to be worth you have to stack a LOT of haste (250+ rating), since you have to use 1:1.5 rotation untill you reach at least 15% speed. In that barcket dropping to 1:1 will gimp your dps, and staying 1:1.5 will clip your autoshot a lot resulting in a very minimal (if any) increase of dps.
not to mention this will come to a significant loss in terms of stats, being it agi, ap or crit.
For a survival hunter to reach use (effectively) a 1:1 rotation he would need to recoup the 20% haste gained from Serpent’s Swiftness, or 315 Haste Rating. (20% * 15.76 Haste / % )
The amount of haste needed for a BM hunter (or similarly hasted MM/Surv hunter) to bring a slower weapon down to 2.7 speed would be:
3.0 speed - > 175 haste rating
2.9 speed - > 116 haste rating
2.8 speed - > 58 haste rating
This puts the target number somewhere in the realm of 490 Haste rating (175+315). making it seem fairly unlikely that haste will be a major surv/mm stat; well, not in a full blown form at least.
Might see some BM hunters using it to make some end game weapons produce tighter rotations. But for now it seems like the lost ap/agi/crit from switching to haste gear can be a burden to dps. Especially in survival where we have a fairly unique set of itemization anyway.
The amount of haste needed for a BM hunter (or similarly hasted MM/Surv hunter) to bring a slower weapon down to 2.7 speed would be:
3.0 speed - > 175 haste rating
2.9 speed - > 116 haste rating
2.8 speed - > 58 haste rating
This puts the target number somewhere in the realm of 490 Haste rating (175+315). making it seem fairly unlikely that haste will be a major surv/mm stat; well, not in a full blown form at least.
Might see some BM hunters using it to make some end game weapons produce tighter rotations. But for now it seems like the lost ap/agi/crit from switching to haste gear can be a burden to dps. Especially in survival where we have a fairly unique set of itemization anyway.
I'm looking for advice on the viability of Wolfslayer as a survival spec. With a 15% ammo pouch, that comes down to 2.35 total speed. Take in 1.5 seconds for a steady shot. Multishot or arcane right after the steady shot, which should still give you enough time to get in autoshot without clipping, leaving .35 seconds total leeway in each rotation. Is my math wrong here? I know in any sort of even medicore lag this will probably cause some terrible clipping issues, but it appears to me like it should hypothetically work without problems with an attentive hunter and fairly low latency. Is there some other speed concern I'm not factoring in, or is the conventional wisdom about survival needing slower weapons than BM somewhat overvalued?
0.00 Auto Shot
0.00 Steady Shot
~1.30 Steady Shot finishes casting
1.50 GCD available
1.50 Arcane Shot
2.35 Auto Shot
3.00 GCD available
3.00 Steady Shot
~4.30 Steady Shot finishes casting
4.7 Auto Shot
In perfect latency and reaction time you can do this with .35-.4s of wiggle room. Now let's add latency of .2s:
0.00 Auto Shot
0.2 Steady Shot
~1.50 Steady Shot finishes casting
1.70 GCD available
1.90 Arcane Shot
2.35 Auto Shot CLIPS by 0.05s
3.40 GCD available
3.60 Steady Shot
~4.90 Steady Shot finishes casting
5.40 Auto Shot CLIPS by 0.7s
So Wolfslayer is going to see large clipping even with a small amount of latency - the problem is the latency will accumulate across GCDs. In 2.3 this will probably be more feasible.
0.00 Steady Shot
~1.30 Steady Shot finishes casting
1.50 GCD available
1.50 Arcane Shot
2.35 Auto Shot
3.00 GCD available
3.00 Steady Shot
~4.30 Steady Shot finishes casting
4.7 Auto Shot
In perfect latency and reaction time you can do this with .35-.4s of wiggle room. Now let's add latency of .2s:
0.00 Auto Shot
0.2 Steady Shot
~1.50 Steady Shot finishes casting
1.70 GCD available
1.90 Arcane Shot
2.35 Auto Shot CLIPS by 0.05s
3.40 GCD available
3.60 Steady Shot
~4.90 Steady Shot finishes casting
5.40 Auto Shot CLIPS by 0.7s
So Wolfslayer is going to see large clipping even with a small amount of latency - the problem is the latency will accumulate across GCDs. In 2.3 this will probably be more feasible.
Wow... based on suggestions from some people in this thread (Ugla specifically) I recently changed my spec from a normal 0/20/41 survival spec to a 0/28/33 hybrid with 5/5 Improved Arcane Shot and dropped multishot from my rotation. I now use:
/casesequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
as my primary dps macro, and it has worked INCREDIBLY well. As a survival hunter in an Illidan killing guild, I'm used to being ~7-9 on the dps meters, and had rationalized that because my expose weakness debuff added enough raid dps to make up for my lack of personal dps. Upon changing the spec and shot rotation, I jumped from ~1000 dps to ~1400 (literally) almost bridging the gap between myself and our (incredibly skilled) BM hunter. I'm now placing #2-4 in dps on fights where I don't have other obligations such as trapping adds (Illidan, Shade, etc).
While I miss the benefits of TotH, Master Marksman, and Readiness, I can't argue with the incredible dps boost due to the consistency of the shot rotation. Anyone have any suggestions/critiques on how I could improve this even more?
P.S. I play with approximately 200 ping, and haven't noticed any issues with /castsequence.
/casesequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
as my primary dps macro, and it has worked INCREDIBLY well. As a survival hunter in an Illidan killing guild, I'm used to being ~7-9 on the dps meters, and had rationalized that because my expose weakness debuff added enough raid dps to make up for my lack of personal dps. Upon changing the spec and shot rotation, I jumped from ~1000 dps to ~1400 (literally) almost bridging the gap between myself and our (incredibly skilled) BM hunter. I'm now placing #2-4 in dps on fights where I don't have other obligations such as trapping adds (Illidan, Shade, etc).
While I miss the benefits of TotH, Master Marksman, and Readiness, I can't argue with the incredible dps boost due to the consistency of the shot rotation. Anyone have any suggestions/critiques on how I could improve this even more?
P.S. I play with approximately 200 ping, and haven't noticed any issues with /castsequence.
Have you sen any noticeable drop in EW? I'm assuming you had 5/5 MT in your previous build.
re: Binky- No issues with expose weakness, but I'm running ~42% crit raid buffed, plus a possible feral druid. I never found master tactician that amazing in the first place- it was certainly better than improved hawk (due to needing to change shot rotations) but felt like overkill. The thing I miss the most by far is Thrill of the Hunt- that's a LOT of mana back. I've countered it by drinking more fel mana pots in raids, but I do tend to burn mana considerably faster than when I was running 2/3 Thrill of the Hunt. I wish I had WWS to illustrate but we're still setting that up.
Personally, I think 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt is a little overrated. Yes, it is good, but putting those 3 points into something else would probably be better, especially if you could guarantee yourself a shadow priest. From last nights WWS (Wow Web Stats), I only gained 3.5k on Vashj (died to static charge right when phase 3 started), 2.3k on Mag, 1.9k on King Maulgar and 2k on Gruul. I could just use 1 or 2 more pots and have gained more.
BTW, ignore our Kael tries. That was the first time we ever engaged him, so, those are pretty worthless as we had no idea what we were doing.
BTW, ignore our Kael tries. That was the first time we ever engaged him, so, those are pretty worthless as we had no idea what we were doing.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
Personally, I think 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt is a little overrated. Yes, it is good, but putting those 3 points into something else would probably be better, especially if you could guarantee yourself a shadow priest. From last nights WWS (Wow Web Stats), I only gained 3.5k on Vashj (died to static charge right when phase 3 started), 2.3k on Mag, 1.9k on King Maulgar and 2k on Gruul. I could just use 1 or 2 more pots and have gained more.
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3/3 TotH should not be dismissed as just a few mana pots. If you regen 2 mana pots worth then you could possibly use those cooldowns for health pots. As I typically am not gifted with a SPriest I find TotH a premium talent.
So I am thinking of slightly switching up my spec. Is 100% EW crit proc really that different from 66%? Because if not, I was thinking of stuffing a 4th point into RWS.
My personal feeling is that if you have a crit % of 44% or more raid buffed then dropping to 2/3 exposed weakness should be perfectly fine (rough guess is the EW will be available 90% of the time using Cheeky's spread sheet).
Hm, i'm at 32.5? unbuffed. Elixir of major agi, kings, wild mark. What other buffs increase crit?
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Hm, i'm at 32.5? unbuffed. Elixir of major agi, kings, wild mark. What other buffs increase crit?
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Not much you can do yourself aside from that. The rest would be determined by group and raid makeup (Feral Druid's Leader of the Pack, Judgement of Crusader from a Ret Pally, Grace of Air Totem from a Shaman)
That's all I can think of at the moment.
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Originally Posted by Iod
+20 Agi food (Mudfish/Warp burger)
Not much you can do yourself aside from that. The rest would be determined by group and raid makeup (Feral Druid's Leader of the Pack, Judgement of Crusader from a Ret Pally, Grace of Air Totem from a Shaman) That's all I can think of at the moment. |
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Originally Posted by brutish
Scroll of Agility V. I don't know why I don't see more people using these. You can usually find them on the AH for cheap.
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Originally Posted by Dibbler
My personal feeling is that if you have a crit % of 44% or more raid buffed then dropping to 2/3 exposed weakness should be perfectly fine (rough guess is the EW will be available 90% of the time using Cheeky's spread sheet).
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Depending on your reasoning for going SV, 90% may be (un)acceptable. I chose to make my raid buff the "priority" and not just a nice perk.
Personally, 90% is unacceptable. We've all been a part of 1%-2% wipes. That extra 10% of up time on EW may be enough to make the difference. Also, if you are going to expect the benefit of the "perfect" party to be in, I would think that it's not unreasonable of the RL to expect you bring the best raid buff. I may be a bit extreme in my commitment to maintaining and maximizing my raid buff, but it would drive me nuts to see 10% down time in EW. It bugs me enough to see it down the 1.78% (or so) that is down now
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Wow... based on suggestions from some people in this thread (Ugla specifically) I recently changed my spec from a normal 0/20/41 survival spec to a 0/28/33 hybrid with 5/5 Improved Arcane Shot and dropped multishot from my rotation. I now use:
/casesequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot as my primary dps macro, and it has worked INCREDIBLY well. As a survival hunter in an Illidan killing guild, I'm used to being ~7-9 on the dps meters, and had rationalized that because my expose weakness debuff added enough raid dps to make up for my lack of personal dps. Upon changing the spec and shot rotation, I jumped from ~1000 dps to ~1400 (literally) almost bridging the gap between myself and our (incredibly skilled) BM hunter. I'm now placing #2-4 in dps on fights where I don't have other obligations such as trapping adds (Illidan, Shade, etc). While I miss the benefits of TotH, Master Marksman, and Readiness, I can't argue with the incredible dps boost due to the consistency of the shot rotation. Anyone have any suggestions/critiques on how I could improve this even more? P.S. I play with approximately 200 ping, and haven't noticed any issues with /castsequence. |
I am considering speccing away from 41 in survival one to do more damage and two because now we are raiding with more pallys and am getting much more mana back than I am used to.
Wouldn't you get more dps out of going into barrage and keeping the same rotation with arcane and multi? Or, are you that much more efficient with the arcane rotation that it makes the difference? Also, how do you handle kill command, I have it into my macro?
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Originally Posted by binky
Depending on your reasoning for going SV, 90% may be (un)acceptable. I chose to make my raid buff the "priority" and not just a nice perk.
Personally, 90% is unacceptable. We've all been a part of 1%-2% wipes. That extra 10% of up time on EW may be enough to make the difference. Also, if you are going to expect the benefit of the "perfect" party to be in, I would think that it's not unreasonable of the RL to expect you bring the best raid buff. I may be a bit extreme in my commitment to maintaining and maximizing my raid buff, but it would drive me nuts to see 10% down time in EW. It bugs me enough to see it down the 1.78% (or so) that is down now |
I am all about helping the raid which is exactly why I moved over to Survival (I have to defend it over BM constantly). My point about the 2/3 vs 3/3 is when your crit rate gets at such a high rate your EW uptime is pretty much constant. You could essentially keep the same amount of EW uptime with 2/3 EW and put the points into RWS increasing your damage output as well.
The KEY point of Survival build that I often think is overlooked is that the Raid has to be DPS'ing the SAME mob as you. If your on Al'ar killing adds in phase 1 or 2, Vashj killing the spore bats or on Kael during phase 2 and 3, your adding ZERO or minimal raid buffs. However, you are increasing your damage output which has obvious benefits to the raid. That being said it becomes a real balancing act on talent point placement, much more so than BM and MM. I don't know the break point for Crit nor do I ever expect to get the perfect raid composition (Druids have been slacking of late) but I know I will look hard at changing my spec once I hit 38% crit without buffs.
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Long time listener first time caller, lol.
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| Wouldn't you get more dps out of going into barrage and keeping the same rotation with arcane and multi? |
| Or, are you that much more efficient with the arcane rotation that it makes the difference? |
auto->SS->arcane->auto->multi->auto->SS->arcane->auto->steady
Basically, the normal 1:1.5, but using 2 arcanes as the specials and replacing 1 steady with a multi. That raises my DPS by about 100 over the standard 1:1.5 rotation. Unfortunately, with my lag, I think I need a 3.0 bow to pull it off and none has dropped yet.
| Also, how do you handle kill command, I have it into my macro? |
I'm another survival hunter that respeced to benefit the raid but is now looking to increase his personal DPS for hyjal without loosing that benefit. From reading a few of the posts above I've put together a spec that would compliment a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9-3.00 speed weapon using a castsequence macro.
Would it be possible to get some feedback from some more hardcore theory crafters? The idea is drawn from the idea that having a lesser cooldown on arcane shot would benefit more with a 1:1.5 (rather than my current 1:1 /inc multi) than MT procs. I would rather not loose TotH if I can help it since I'm required to take iHM over efficiency.
0.25.36 SV Build
Would it be possible to get some feedback from some more hardcore theory crafters? The idea is drawn from the idea that having a lesser cooldown on arcane shot would benefit more with a 1:1.5 (rather than my current 1:1 /inc multi) than MT procs. I would rather not loose TotH if I can help it since I'm required to take iHM over efficiency.
0.25.36 SV Build
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
I'm another survival hunter that respeced to benefit the raid but is now looking to increase his personal DPS for hyjal without loosing that benefit. From reading a few of the posts above I've put together a spec that would compliment a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9-3.00 speed weapon using a castsequence macro.
Would it be possible to get some feedback from some more hardcore theory crafters? The idea is drawn from the idea that having a lesser cooldown on arcane shot would benefit more with a 1:1.5 (rather than my current 1:1 /inc multi) than MT procs. I would rather not loose TotH if I can help it since I'm required to take iHM over efficiency. 0.25.36 SV Build |
I don't see a need for imp FD, but there really aren't many other choices that make much of a difference. I just prefer clever traps, but whatever you like.
I thought about it but I needed to weigh up how I actually raid. For starters my Crit is high enough for 1 point to be enough for my purposes... secondly my guild refuses to raid if I don't bring my turtle (sounds noob I know, I have my raid DPS pets but I'm not allowed to bring them -.-) so my pet damage isn't as import as other talents for my purposes.
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
secondly my guild refuses to raid if I don't bring my turtle (sounds noob I know, I have my raid DPS pets but I'm not allowed to bring them -.-).
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I think the key of an Arcane Shot only rotation is its simplicity. You have one macro to use, and that macro isn't terribly long. Taking barrage is unfortunately out of the question for me if I grab 5/5 imp arcane shot, as I would have to drop both points out of Go For the Throat. I use a bird because my tanks love the -attack power it provides to the bosses (stacks with shouts) and keeping the debuff up requires spamming the attack.
MasterZeus, your talent tree is the same as mine, except I have thrill of the hunt (nice, but not necessary- fel mana pots are amazing) for 3/5 ranged weapon spec, increasing all damage I do by 3%. Also, you definitely want 2/2 Go for the Throat instead of 2/2 Rapid Killing.
Why I don't use multishot: without points in improved arcane shot, arcane shot is a 6 second cooldown while multishot is a 10 second cooldown. This means if your macro is going to be less than 1 minute long, you aren't going to be able to take full advantage of both of them. Speccing 5/5 imp arcane shot reduces arcane to a 5 second cooldown.
Assuming .2 seconds of latency with a 2.9 speed bow reduced to 2.5 (actually 2.44, but close enough) from quiver.
Option 1 (no multishot):
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
2.7 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires -
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
As you can see, this takes advantage of the synergy between the ~2.5 second cast of autoshot and the 5 second cooldown of arcane shot. 5 shots in 5 second: 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, 1 Arcane Shot. For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that these all do approximately the same damage (reference my WWS: Thoranir - WWS).
Option 2 (multishot) from MasterZeus:
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
2.7 Multishot
3.3 Multishot Fires -
5.0 Auto Shot Fires -
5.2 Steady Shot
6.7 Steady Shot Fires -
6.9 Arcane Shot
7.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
7.5 Auto Shot Fires -
7.8 Steady Shot
9.3 Steady Shot Fires -
10.0 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
Here you have fired 10 shots in 10 seconds: compared to the previous rotation, you fired -1 Steady Shot +1 Multishot. If you have 3/3 barrage, your multishot will do (weapon damage normalized to 2.8 + 205) * 1.12 for 275 mana. Steady Shot will deal (ranged attack power * .3)+150 damage for 110 mana. In my experience these are about equal- it's only when you pick up imp barrage that multishot begins to outshine steady shot in terms of dps. Someone feel free to correct me on this and provide the math.
Assume for a second that multishot provides a (slight) damage upgrade over steady shot. This means that in a fight where you never move, the multishot rotation will do more dps. Raiding in BC through Illidan, however, I've found only a couple of these situations. Quite the opposite has been the case in fact- for fights like Supremus, Illidari Council, Illidan, Azgalor, Archimonde, etc, moving around to either avoid AOEs or get back into range of the boss is the rule, not the exception. The shorter shot rotation means you are less likely to wait on a cooldown to complete the macro, and aren't tied to staying still quite as much.
I want to emphasize I'm not a hardcore theorycrafter, just a hunter who's doing what he can to improve his dps, and hopefully help others out in the process. If you want to talk about this in an easier setting, I'm online on Thoranir most evenings, feel free to hop on Kel'Thuzad and yell at me. :P
MasterZeus, your talent tree is the same as mine, except I have thrill of the hunt (nice, but not necessary- fel mana pots are amazing) for 3/5 ranged weapon spec, increasing all damage I do by 3%. Also, you definitely want 2/2 Go for the Throat instead of 2/2 Rapid Killing.
Why I don't use multishot: without points in improved arcane shot, arcane shot is a 6 second cooldown while multishot is a 10 second cooldown. This means if your macro is going to be less than 1 minute long, you aren't going to be able to take full advantage of both of them. Speccing 5/5 imp arcane shot reduces arcane to a 5 second cooldown.
Assuming .2 seconds of latency with a 2.9 speed bow reduced to 2.5 (actually 2.44, but close enough) from quiver.
Option 1 (no multishot):
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
2.7 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires -
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
As you can see, this takes advantage of the synergy between the ~2.5 second cast of autoshot and the 5 second cooldown of arcane shot. 5 shots in 5 second: 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, 1 Arcane Shot. For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that these all do approximately the same damage (reference my WWS: Thoranir - WWS).
Option 2 (multishot) from MasterZeus:
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
2.7 Multishot
3.3 Multishot Fires -
5.0 Auto Shot Fires -
5.2 Steady Shot
6.7 Steady Shot Fires -
6.9 Arcane Shot
7.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
7.5 Auto Shot Fires -
7.8 Steady Shot
9.3 Steady Shot Fires -
10.0 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
Here you have fired 10 shots in 10 seconds: compared to the previous rotation, you fired -1 Steady Shot +1 Multishot. If you have 3/3 barrage, your multishot will do (weapon damage normalized to 2.8 + 205) * 1.12 for 275 mana. Steady Shot will deal (ranged attack power * .3)+150 damage for 110 mana. In my experience these are about equal- it's only when you pick up imp barrage that multishot begins to outshine steady shot in terms of dps. Someone feel free to correct me on this and provide the math.
Assume for a second that multishot provides a (slight) damage upgrade over steady shot. This means that in a fight where you never move, the multishot rotation will do more dps. Raiding in BC through Illidan, however, I've found only a couple of these situations. Quite the opposite has been the case in fact- for fights like Supremus, Illidari Council, Illidan, Azgalor, Archimonde, etc, moving around to either avoid AOEs or get back into range of the boss is the rule, not the exception. The shorter shot rotation means you are less likely to wait on a cooldown to complete the macro, and aren't tied to staying still quite as much.
I want to emphasize I'm not a hardcore theorycrafter, just a hunter who's doing what he can to improve his dps, and hopefully help others out in the process. If you want to talk about this in an easier setting, I'm online on Thoranir most evenings, feel free to hop on Kel'Thuzad and yell at me. :P
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I think the key of an Arcane Shot only rotation is its simplicity.
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Option 1 (no multishot): 0.0 Auto Shot Fires - 0.2 Steady Shot 1.7 Steady Shot Fires - 1.9 Arcane Shot 2.1 Arcane Shot Fires - 2.5 Auto Shot Fires - 2.7 Steady Shot 4.2 Steady Shot Fires - 5.0 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts |
Granted, there aren't many times when you can sit there and go all out while repeating this sequence forever. Those times when you must move or stop DPSing is when your cooldowns catch back up.
There is definitely no arguing with your WWS. That is some impressive work. I will give imp arcane shot another try, but I think it will really shine once I get a 3.0 bow so I have more room for the global cooldowns.
I agree that barrage is a waste because of all the movement and CC making multishot not usable in too many places. The second rotation I posted is higher DPS if your multishot does more damage than your steady shot, but also because you are able to do a tiny bit less clipping. Since multishot takes 0.5 seconds to cast instead of 1.5 seconds, you can get that next auto off a little quicker and overlap the GCD with the 0.5 auto cast time.
BTW, fel mana pots on my server are 5 gold a pop when available, but they are almost never available.
Bah- that's what I get for theorycrafting when I should be working. Seems I made the same mistake on both rotations... lemme try that again.
Option 1:
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
3.4 Steady Shot
4.9 Steady Shot Fires -
5.1 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
Lost .1 seconds there.
Option 2:
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
3.6 Multishot
4.1 Multishot Fires -
5.0 Auto Shot Fires -
5.2 Steady Shot
6.7 Steady Shot Fires -
6.9 Arcane Shot
7.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
7.5 Auto Shot Fires -
8.4 Steady Shot
9.9 Steady Shot Fires -
10.1 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
This one isn't affected quite as much, losing only .1 seconds over 10 seconds compared to .2 seconds for the shorter rotation. You hit the nail on the head- the first one clips .1 seconds of the autoshot. I don't think this changes which I prefer, however- the shorter macro is still preferable for movement fights.
I feel for you with the fel mana pots. They run 15g/5 on my server, and I'm able to get a guildy to make them for slightly cheaper. Also, in fights where my personal dps isn't quite as important (notably farm bosses, stuff we're going to kill even if I die extremely early on) I'll use Aspect of the Viper (~100 mana/5) over Aspect of the Hawk. I know I'm a horrible person for doing so, but trading ~20 dps (according to the spreadsheet) for a considerable amount of gold is worth it when I know I don't need the dps. I only wish I could do this for Thrill of the Hunt too...
In any case, we're both on the right track, it seems down to a case of personal preference now. Trade slightly higher (theoretical) dps for more mobility and a shorter macro- it's your call.
Option 1:
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
3.4 Steady Shot
4.9 Steady Shot Fires -
5.1 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
Lost .1 seconds there.
Option 2:
0.0 Auto Shot Fires -
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires -
1.9 Arcane Shot
2.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
2.5 Auto Shot Fires -
3.6 Multishot
4.1 Multishot Fires -
5.0 Auto Shot Fires -
5.2 Steady Shot
6.7 Steady Shot Fires -
6.9 Arcane Shot
7.1 Arcane Shot Fires -
7.5 Auto Shot Fires -
8.4 Steady Shot
9.9 Steady Shot Fires -
10.1 Auto Shot Fires and sequence restarts
This one isn't affected quite as much, losing only .1 seconds over 10 seconds compared to .2 seconds for the shorter rotation. You hit the nail on the head- the first one clips .1 seconds of the autoshot. I don't think this changes which I prefer, however- the shorter macro is still preferable for movement fights.
I feel for you with the fel mana pots. They run 15g/5 on my server, and I'm able to get a guildy to make them for slightly cheaper. Also, in fights where my personal dps isn't quite as important (notably farm bosses, stuff we're going to kill even if I die extremely early on) I'll use Aspect of the Viper (~100 mana/5) over Aspect of the Hawk. I know I'm a horrible person for doing so, but trading ~20 dps (according to the spreadsheet) for a considerable amount of gold is worth it when I know I don't need the dps. I only wish I could do this for Thrill of the Hunt too...
In any case, we're both on the right track, it seems down to a case of personal preference now. Trade slightly higher (theoretical) dps for more mobility and a shorter macro- it's your call.
My experiences with raiding in Hyjal and Black Temple and the way I play, I have preferred a steady/arcane rotation. For one thing it's easier to use--you don't need to stare at cooldowns and focus on other things that become more important in later fights. It also works a little better with the 2.9 speed bow I was using for a long time, and works in a macro with my now slower 3.0 speed bow. It's also nice that arcane shot isn't mitigated by armor, just resistance.
Thrill of the Hunt is an indispensable talent for me. The further in raiding progression you go, the longer the fights tend to get--and the more damage you'll take randomly or as an entire raid. Mana potions are important and can help you out in a lot of fights, however they are not always an option. The Illidari Council encounter, for instance, can last an extremely long time, and you will randomly take burst damage that can come from multiple sources--you will take 5000+ burst damage, and can take much more. Healers can be preoccupied and you can easily have to chug a healing potion. To do your maximum damage, you'll be using Aspect of the Viper, mana oils, and hope you get a shadow priest!
Also as a little note, I do my cast sequence in my macro in a different order. It works out better for me when I'm changing targets on trash a lot because of the cooldown on arcane shot. Just something to think about if you're having problems with your macro.
Thrill of the Hunt is an indispensable talent for me. The further in raiding progression you go, the longer the fights tend to get--and the more damage you'll take randomly or as an entire raid. Mana potions are important and can help you out in a lot of fights, however they are not always an option. The Illidari Council encounter, for instance, can last an extremely long time, and you will randomly take burst damage that can come from multiple sources--you will take 5000+ burst damage, and can take much more. Healers can be preoccupied and you can easily have to chug a healing potion. To do your maximum damage, you'll be using Aspect of the Viper, mana oils, and hope you get a shadow priest!
Also as a little note, I do my cast sequence in my macro in a different order. It works out better for me when I'm changing targets on trash a lot because of the cooldown on arcane shot. Just something to think about if you're having problems with your macro.
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Originally Posted by ugla
It also works a little better with the 2.9 speed bow I was using for a long time, and works in a macro with my now slower 3.0 speed bow.
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| Also, in fights where my personal dps isn't quite as important (notably farm bosses, stuff we're going to kill even if I die extremely early on) I'll use Aspect of the Viper (~100 mana/5) over Aspect of the Hawk. |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post Wow... based on suggestions from some people in this thread (Ugla specifically) I recently changed my spec from a normal 0/20/41 survival spec to a 0/28/33 hybrid with 5/5 Improved Arcane Shot and dropped multishot from my rotation. I now use: /casesequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot |
I took the above spec suggestion to see if usage of a macro would improve my output. I have for a long time been a manual shot timer. I have my nights/moments of great timing, and times with less focus. With this spec, and with not having a spriest, this was my output from SSC this week. Wow Web Stats I had a TON of mana issues. I was on total pot cooldown, and forced to resort to viper usage as well. I was putting out a lot more TPS than usual, so I don't know if the numbers are reflecting the potential of the spec/rotation or not. The problem is, I won't always have a spriest, and am the last to get grouped with the ones we do have available. If this spec shines (provided the mana is there to maintain) then I'd like to keep trying it, but if it really really depends on the availability of a spriest, I think I need other options.
I'm not the best at number crunching or theorizing, but I love my hunter and she's been my main since playing the game. But I'm also one competitive chick and this lackluster output is really making me angry. I scour forums and posts and specs and builds, but I worry that something about my execution of it all is really messing me up.
I'm the hunter class lead (because I do spend all my time reading up on things and trying to learn) so I feel like a total jerk not performing better than I do. Can you survival pro's please help me figure out what will work best for my situation, and maybe spot where I am screwing up?
What do I need to do to get to, break and consistently sit at the 1K+ dps level? Please help! Thanks.
Intersting read about improved Arcane Shot. But still you are talking about single target dps, multishot is awesome when go for more targets, not to mention that on a fully sundered and faerie fired target usually do about 20% more dmg than an arcane.
Typical statement about multi is the fact that can break crowd control. This is true obviously, but this is typical a problem of thrash mobs where dps isn't that important anyway and yet it's really good when you can actually use it (aoe packs, or even boss adds), All in all i think that barrage is still a good talent to get.
I'm also interested in getting imptoved Arcane to test it out, still using a 2.9 bow, but upgrading to a 3.00 soon hopefully might allow me use less than 5 points in it and get the same benefits (or even season 1 crossbow for a even slower rotation).
Also to those using a pure arcane shot rotation, why not fitting multi in there too? 10 sec cooldown on multi and 5 sec cooldown on arcane means they will never overlap if properly spaced; final rotation would become something like this:
Steady Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Multishot
Autoshot
Steady Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Autoshot
Typical statement about multi is the fact that can break crowd control. This is true obviously, but this is typical a problem of thrash mobs where dps isn't that important anyway and yet it's really good when you can actually use it (aoe packs, or even boss adds), All in all i think that barrage is still a good talent to get.
I'm also interested in getting imptoved Arcane to test it out, still using a 2.9 bow, but upgrading to a 3.00 soon hopefully might allow me use less than 5 points in it and get the same benefits (or even season 1 crossbow for a even slower rotation).
Also to those using a pure arcane shot rotation, why not fitting multi in there too? 10 sec cooldown on multi and 5 sec cooldown on arcane means they will never overlap if properly spaced; final rotation would become something like this:
Steady Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Multishot
Autoshot
Steady Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Autoshot
After being BM for pretty much all of T5/T6, I tried out 0/24/37 using a macro'ed Arcane Shot this week, and I was very impressed by the results.
Here are the WWS's:
Hyjal and BT up to Akama
Rest of BT
Monco is a Survival hunter with significantly better Survival gear than I have. He manually times his shots and he is quite good at it, but I was generally able to keep up with him despite the inferior gear. All other hunters are in the WWS's are BM spec. On several fights, my DPS was slightly lower than what I used to do with BM spec. However, having a backup EW and a far more consistent output on pet-unfriendly fights is valuable and makes up for it in my opinion. Also, my BM gear is better than my Survival gear, so this accounts for some difference.
Some thoughts about it:
- Working Multishot into the rotation is advantageous pretty much anytime you can hit two or more targets. Clipping autoshot is okay for this, because you're effectively getting a free shot's worth of damage. I chose to continue using the macro but throw Multi in after the second Steady, clipping my auto a little in the process. It was pretty successful.
- One flaw of using the macro is that Arcane Shot is that it doesn't receive any benefit from Armor Penetration (thanks Monco). I think that the consistency of timing makes up for this.
- At the T6 gear level (also possible with ZA gear), you can optimize your weapon speed with haste gear so that it is almost exactly 2.5s, which makes it perfect for the macro. I ran most of the night with either 2.51 or 2.56 speed.
- I messed up my rotation a couple times by instinctively firing an Arcane Shot while moving, since in mobility fights this is a good way to increase damage. If you do that, you're committing to manual timing for the next 5s. Alternatively, come 2.3 you could use Serpent Sting as your "moving" shot.
Overall, I was quite satisfied with this spec and I think I may keep it for a while.
Here are the WWS's:
Hyjal and BT up to Akama
Rest of BT
Monco is a Survival hunter with significantly better Survival gear than I have. He manually times his shots and he is quite good at it, but I was generally able to keep up with him despite the inferior gear. All other hunters are in the WWS's are BM spec. On several fights, my DPS was slightly lower than what I used to do with BM spec. However, having a backup EW and a far more consistent output on pet-unfriendly fights is valuable and makes up for it in my opinion. Also, my BM gear is better than my Survival gear, so this accounts for some difference.
Some thoughts about it:
- Working Multishot into the rotation is advantageous pretty much anytime you can hit two or more targets. Clipping autoshot is okay for this, because you're effectively getting a free shot's worth of damage. I chose to continue using the macro but throw Multi in after the second Steady, clipping my auto a little in the process. It was pretty successful.
- One flaw of using the macro is that Arcane Shot is that it doesn't receive any benefit from Armor Penetration (thanks Monco). I think that the consistency of timing makes up for this.
- At the T6 gear level (also possible with ZA gear), you can optimize your weapon speed with haste gear so that it is almost exactly 2.5s, which makes it perfect for the macro. I ran most of the night with either 2.51 or 2.56 speed.
- I messed up my rotation a couple times by instinctively firing an Arcane Shot while moving, since in mobility fights this is a good way to increase damage. If you do that, you're committing to manual timing for the next 5s. Alternatively, come 2.3 you could use Serpent Sting as your "moving" shot.
Overall, I was quite satisfied with this spec and I think I may keep it for a while.
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
What do I need to do to get to, break and consistently sit at the 1K+ dps level? Please help! Thanks.
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Compared to Trohck's: Wow Web Stats
I am not familiar with the Rage fight, but it appears to be a stand and shoot, at least on the front page of the log.
Looking at these two, your rotations don't seem to match at all. Trohck is using a pure 5-sec 1:1.5 arcane shot rotation. You seem to be using more of a 1:1 rotation in places with 1:1.5 in others and then missing a few specials at places. If I had to guess, I would say that Trohck is using a macro and you aren't. But, that is just a guess and Trohck could just be a really great manual shooter.
Another suggestion that I like, but other hunters do not, is using a wind serpent in place of your cat. With such a high crit, my wind serpent does significantly more DPS than my cat. Of course, you would have to macro the Lightning Breadth since it is currently buggy on autocast. Good luck!
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Originally Posted by Gurth
Also to those using a pure arcane shot rotation, why not fitting multi in there too? 10 sec cooldown on multi and 5 sec cooldown on arcane means they will never overlap if properly spaced; final rotation would become something like this:
Steady Shot Arcane Shot Auto Shot Steady Shot Multishot Autoshot Steady Shot Arcane Shot Auto Shot Steady Shot Autoshot |
Then you would see why this is not possible without major clipping to the point where the multishot would probably lower your DPS.
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
What do I need to do to get to, break and consistently sit at the 1K+ dps level? Please help! Thanks.
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- Since you're having mana issues, spec out of Ranged Weapon Specialization and into 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt. If you always have a Shadow Priest you don't need this, but otherwise I would argue that 0/24/37 is a better spec for Survival hunters than 0/28/33.
- Start using a macro to ensure a clean 1.5:1 rotation. As posted before something like /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot should work.
- Get Cat's Swiftness on your boots and a Relentless Earthstorm Meta for your helm. Net trade is +6 AGI, -20ap and +3% critical strike damage (when it's not bugged).
- Be realistic. Understand that depending on group makeup and fight, you actually may not be able to hit 1k DPS on all fights until you get better gear. If you look at your WWS, very few of your raid members are consistently hitting 1k DPS.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Here are some concrete tips:
- Since you're having mana issues, spec out of Ranged Weapon Specialization and into 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt. If you always have a Shadow Priest you don't need this, but otherwise I would argue that 0/24/37 is a better spec for Survival hunters than 0/28/33. - Start using a macro to ensure a clean 1.5:1 rotation. As posted before something like /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot should work. - Get Cat's Swiftness on your boots and a Relentless Earthstorm Meta for your helm. Net trade is +6 AGI, -20ap and +3% critical strike damage (when it's not bugged). - Be realistic. Understand that depending on group makeup and fight, you actually may not be able to hit 1k DPS on all fights until you get better gear. If you look at your WWS, very few of your raid members are consistently hitting 1k DPS. |
Trohck- the armor penetration issue on arcane shot is something I hadn't considered. I'm only running a bit of penetration right now (T6 gloves) but as we continue farming BT/Hyjal I'm sure that'll be increasing. I do the same thing with multi, specifically in trash situations- it's also very nice to see several crits off a multishot, knowing I just EW'd all those mobs. It's good to hear I'm not the only one who's enjoying the rotation.
Lilwolfe- What sticks out to me (looking at your WWS) is that your steady shot and auto shot crit percent was absurdly low compared to your arcane shot percent, which is more like what I would expect based on your gear. Chock it up to pure luck (I can't think of anything else that'd affect auto/steady but not arcane), but that hurt your dps quite a bit. For the TPS question: I put out an insane amount of TPS and generally have to feign far more often than our BM hunters. An early feign at ~20 seconds into the fight, and another at ~50 are generally all that are needed, save a string of lucky crits later on.
Some Math on Tidewalker asuming a consistent 37% crit chance:
Auto Shot: Upping this to 37% means you would have another 9.6 crits. Assume off average auto shot damage that a crit would be (763x2.3) and subtracting the original 763 since it was already counted, you're adding 9522 damage from autoshots.
Steady Shot: Upping this to 37% means you would have another 11.2 crits. Assume off average steady shot damage that a crit would be (781x2.3) and subtracting the original 781 since it was already counted, you're adding 11371 damage from steady shots.
This is a total of 20893 damage over 7 minutes = an additional 50 dps.
Also, it looks like the only group buff you received was ferocious inspiration from 1 other BM hunter. Group stacking is a HUGE way to increase dps, and without support from your raid leader your dps is going to suffer. Speaking from my own experience, you're doing about as best as you can. Try to get a feral druid and potentially a resto shaman (enhancement shamans tend to be tied to rogues) and you'll see your dps go up. If you're having consistent mana issues, I'd recommend swapping to Aspect of the Viper for the entire fight- it'll cost you about 20 dps, and save you from any mana worries.
Also, an important note- assuming you're ~1000 agi raid buffed with a raid makeup as shown on WWS, you also added ~600-700 raid dps through expose weakness. I'm sure you already know this, but it is an important point you might bring up to your raid lead.
Not much more I can say, you seem to be doing a great job and you'll hit the 1k dps barrier soon enough.
Lilwolfe- What sticks out to me (looking at your WWS) is that your steady shot and auto shot crit percent was absurdly low compared to your arcane shot percent, which is more like what I would expect based on your gear. Chock it up to pure luck (I can't think of anything else that'd affect auto/steady but not arcane), but that hurt your dps quite a bit. For the TPS question: I put out an insane amount of TPS and generally have to feign far more often than our BM hunters. An early feign at ~20 seconds into the fight, and another at ~50 are generally all that are needed, save a string of lucky crits later on.
Some Math on Tidewalker asuming a consistent 37% crit chance:
Auto Shot: Upping this to 37% means you would have another 9.6 crits. Assume off average auto shot damage that a crit would be (763x2.3) and subtracting the original 763 since it was already counted, you're adding 9522 damage from autoshots.
Steady Shot: Upping this to 37% means you would have another 11.2 crits. Assume off average steady shot damage that a crit would be (781x2.3) and subtracting the original 781 since it was already counted, you're adding 11371 damage from steady shots.
This is a total of 20893 damage over 7 minutes = an additional 50 dps.
Also, it looks like the only group buff you received was ferocious inspiration from 1 other BM hunter. Group stacking is a HUGE way to increase dps, and without support from your raid leader your dps is going to suffer. Speaking from my own experience, you're doing about as best as you can. Try to get a feral druid and potentially a resto shaman (enhancement shamans tend to be tied to rogues) and you'll see your dps go up. If you're having consistent mana issues, I'd recommend swapping to Aspect of the Viper for the entire fight- it'll cost you about 20 dps, and save you from any mana worries.
Also, an important note- assuming you're ~1000 agi raid buffed with a raid makeup as shown on WWS, you also added ~600-700 raid dps through expose weakness. I'm sure you already know this, but it is an important point you might bring up to your raid lead.
Not much more I can say, you seem to be doing a great job and you'll hit the 1k dps barrier soon enough.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
Look at your combat log: Wow Web Stats
Compared to Trohck's: Wow Web Stats I am not familiar with the Rage fight, but it appears to be a stand and shoot, at least on the front page of the log. Looking at these two, your rotations don't seem to match at all. Trohck is using a pure 5-sec 1:1.5 arcane shot rotation. You seem to be using more of a 1:1 rotation in places with 1:1.5 in others and then missing a few specials at places. If I had to guess, I would say that Trohck is using a macro and you aren't. But, that is just a guess and Trohck could just be a really great manual shooter. Another suggestion that I like, but other hunters do not, is using a wind serpent in place of your cat. With such a high crit, my wind serpent does significantly more DPS than my cat. Of course, you would have to macro the Lightning Breadth since it is currently buggy on autocast. Good luck! |
I picked up a wind serpent last night, and soon as she hits 70, I'll give her a whirl. Can you tell me how to macro in the lightning breath and when it is used? (I am horrid with macros)
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Here are some concrete tips: - Since you're having mana issues, spec out of Ranged Weapon Specialization and into 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt. If you always have a Shadow Priest you don't need this, but otherwise I would argue that 0/24/37 is a better spec for Survival hunters than 0/28/33. - Start using a macro to ensure a clean 1.5:1 rotation. As posted before something like /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot should work. - Get Cat's Swiftness on your boots and a Relentless Earthstorm Meta for your helm. Net trade is +6 AGI, -20ap and +3% critical strike damage (when it's not bugged). - Be realistic. Understand that depending on group makeup and fight, you actually may not be able to hit 1k DPS on all fights until you get better gear. If you look at your WWS, very few of your raid members are consistently hitting 1k DPS. |
Thanks here too! I'll see who we have for spriests for tonights raid and if we are dry on them, I'll do the respec tonight. If not, I'll give this a shot with a priesty in my group and see how it goes. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll see about the gems and enchant too. I've been holding off on spending money on the helm because I keep praying for the T4 to drop. I may just go put in a few weeks grind in the arena for gladiator. This is getting nuts. :p
I am playing with the idea of dropping IaotH and picking up Imp arcane. Is this viable with my setup? I'm also looking for any other advice I can get.
- Last SSC run (first Vashj kill was Oct 29th)
Wow Web Stats
- Armory (Note, for raiding I use [Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer] (+agi enchant) and [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] (with [Clefthide Leg Armor] to boost my agility.)
The World of Warcraft Armory
* Note: I usually run with the 2nd point in savage strikes and 5/5 Imp Hawk (without Scatter shot) but we've had a lot of recruits and the shifted points help with our heroic trial runs.
I especially interested in any tips to help with Hydross and Leo (especially Leo).
- Last SSC run (first Vashj kill was Oct 29th)
Wow Web Stats
- Armory (Note, for raiding I use [Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer] (+agi enchant) and [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] (with [Clefthide Leg Armor] to boost my agility.)
The World of Warcraft Armory
* Note: I usually run with the 2nd point in savage strikes and 5/5 Imp Hawk (without Scatter shot) but we've had a lot of recruits and the shifted points help with our heroic trial runs.
I especially interested in any tips to help with Hydross and Leo (especially Leo).
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Trohck- the armor penetration issue on arcane shot is something I hadn't considered. I'm only running a bit of penetration right now (T6 gloves) but as we continue farming BT/Hyjal I'm sure that'll be increasing...It's good to hear I'm not the only one who's enjoying the rotation.
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Even if you had 1000 armor penetration you're only talking about losing 20 DPS or so. Let's take this as a fact. Another liberal estimate in favor of armor penetration is that your Auto Shot is doing a minimum of 700 damage per shot; this is more than reasonable even on a high-armor target. The trade-off is DPS lost by using Arcane instead of Multi (20 DPS) vs. DPS lost by clipping autos. I'm sure when doing manual timing we've all clipped an auto with a Steady by anticipating it too quickly. When you do this, you're effectively losing 500ish damage. More precisely, (700 - 700*((Steady cast time + .5) / WeaponSpeed) is what it costs you if you recover perfectly.
So you'll lose about 500 when you completely kill an auto with a Steady. Let's ignore the gradual DPS loss of smaller clips made with a manual rotation. What does it take to lose 20DPS (what you would gain by a manual rotation with Multi) in this fashion? The answer is that you mess up and fully clip an auto every (500 / 20) = 25 seconds
So if you full clip an auto 1 in every 5 rotations then using the macro is definitely better for you - and that's with 1000 armor penetration, very generous numbers, and not factoring in gradual clips. If you account for all of those factors I'd say the macro is better unless you're doing 14 out of 15 rotations perfectly - without a full clip and with minimal clipping on the end.
edit: if you can afford to sacrifice points in ToTH (due to having a spriest all the time), or EW (due to having a lot of survival hunters), then you could put points in to Barrage which would tilt the scales a little towards Multi/manual rotation.
Last edited by Trohck : 11/02/07 at 4:56 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
so......
now im not exactly sure what i should do atm i am the survival hunter with a 5/20/36 spec more than likely i will be changing to a 25/36 soon but thats a different story i use a 1:1.5 shot rot with vash's bow which dose amazing dmg but last night we killed Supremus and legion killer droped now with
vash bow it has crit and a 3.0 speed which is what makes it amazing imo
legionkiller">it has the pure agi but the 2.9 speed im just not sure going back to a 1:1 shot rot losing so much dmg is worth it..???
let me add aWWS
and an armory link if that will help eranowenn
vash bow it has crit and a 3.0 speed which is what makes it amazing imo
legionkiller">it has the pure agi but the 2.9 speed im just not sure going back to a 1:1 shot rot losing so much dmg is worth it..???
let me add aWWS
and an armory link if that will help eranowenn
Last edited by eranowenn : 11/02/07 at 5:32 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
Thanks for the advice. I actually was using the macro. But, as mentioned, I was having major mana issues. More fights than not, I was at no mana and flipping aspect of viper on until a pot cooldown came up. Also, I use Rapid Fire when it's up - should I not be? Or should I change the rotation during that time?
I picked up a wind serpent last night, and soon as she hits 70, I'll give her a whirl. Can you tell me how to macro in the lightning breath and when it is used? (I am horrid with macros) Thanks here too! I'll see who we have for spriests for tonights raid and if we are dry on them, I'll do the respec tonight. If not, I'll give this a shot with a priesty in my group and see how it goes. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll see about the gems and enchant too. I've been holding off on spending money on the helm because I keep praying for the T4 to drop. I may just go put in a few weeks grind in the arena for gladiator. This is getting nuts. :p |
In completely unrelated news: Essence of Anger makes me hot Wow Web Stats
First time doing that fight and 3500 DPS is pure sex.
Last edited by Glaurong : 11/02/07 at 5:34 PM.
Legion killer is perfect for a 1.5:1 rotation what's the doubt?
well i used sunfury previously and i i had never been able to get both shots off on the one auto shot possibley it has something to do with my lat but as i was looking i was not sure it was possible
I raid with 200-400ms and rarely fail on it. Just start spamming the special whille steady is beeing casted.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Even if you had 1000 armor penetration you're only talking about losing 20 DPS or so.
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I am going to give the Imp Arcane rotation a whirl though next clear to see how it compares, hopefully Azgalor doesn't feel the need to Doom me so I can compare with last weeks WWS of full DPS time on him. The macro timing still may give enough of an edge by removing some latency factors and the 0.5s cast of Multishot to make it worth it.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Another thing that immediately jumps out at me is the lack of Judgement of Wisdom.
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On that subject, I see several suggestions here about using Aspect of the Viper to deal with mana problems. Is it really better than AotH and feign+drink? It certainly wasn't worth it pre-2.2, and post-2.2 I can't image you'd want to use it while you're above 50% mana since it's actually worse in that scenario.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
I am curious about this statement. Do you mean it seems to work better with a 2.9 speed bow instead of a 3.0 speed bow? I am trying to get a 3.0 speed bow because I think it would work better than my 2.9 speed.
My guild is so competitve, that trading Hawk for Viper can mean the difference between 2th and 6th on the meters. I was 2nd for 95% of our last Karathess (sp?) kill and then ran out of mana when he was at ~25%. I switched to viper and did a steady/auto rotation for the rest of the fight and ended in 6th! We had another fight last week where a mage crit Lurker with the final blow and went from 5th to 2nd! We are all so close. When we are all that close, it really doesn't matter which spot you end up at, but, we all still try for the bragging rights! In reality, we are all fighting for #2 since no one can come anywhere close to our #1 rogue in his rogue optimized group (at least he is really cool and one of the few rogues I've ever met that doesn't brag about his DPS). |
I never got caught up with trying to be top damage. Once you're out of SSC and TK, rogue gear seems to scale better than others' and they start pulling ahead on single target fights. Part of their pulling ahead is due to your Expose Weakness debuff! Also because of this superior scaling they end up getting a group tailored to them well before you will. I don't get a shaman in my group until we get a 4th shaman in the raid, and rarely see a feral druid. When I get both, though, my damage is plenty competitive--and after that I'm giving the raid 300AP.
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Originally Posted by Monco
Sunder x 5 + Faerie Fire + COR is roughly 4000 armor reduction that Arcane Shot receives no benefit from and most raids should have. I wasn't specifying penetration on gear in our discussion but the fact that Arcane Shot can only increase with +AP debuffs where Multishot will increase both from +AP and -armor.
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Multishot scales with RAP at 20% (2.8/14). Arcane scales with RAP at 15%. I don't have strict numbers on the mitigation Arcane Shot suffers due to resists, but glancing through some WWS's it looks to be between 3-4%. Even with Sunder / Faerie Fire / COR you're looking at 17-26% Armor reduction on Multishot (depending on the intial armor of the mob). This has to be taken into account when you consider how the shots scale vs. each other.
If you're up against a 6200 armor mob with full debuffs you're look at around 17% reduction. Factoring that into to Multishot's RAP scaling, you get .2*.83 = 16.6% scaling with RAP. Arcane Shot gets .15*.965 = 14.5% scaling. So yes, Multi does scale slightly better with RAP, but not by much. The base damage of Multi is higher and it scales with weapon/ammo damage, but again this is mitigated by armor. Until Sunder / FF / COR start offering additional penetration, Arcane and Multi are pretty similar in terms of scaling because Arcane doesn't have to go through armor in the first place. Multi will still receive benefit from armor penetration on your gear but as pointed out above that benefit is a trade-off vs. your ability to manually time your rotation.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
She only had two Paladins in her raid, so for DPS purposes I'm guessing Blessing of Might and Blessing of Kings are better.
On that subject, I see several suggestions here about using Aspect of the Viper to deal with mana problems. Is it really better than AotH and feign+drink? It certainly wasn't worth it pre-2.2, and post-2.2 I can't image you'd want to use it while you're above 50% mana since it's actually worse in that scenario. |
At about 10% mana left Viper will provide 50% of your intellect in mp5. With Efficiency, Steady is about 245 mp5. Viper will take a 100-200 chunk out of that, other raid available mana regen should handle most of the rest.
Kicking Viper on while your pots are on cool and you are under 20% mana seems like the best choice. Although I would immediately switch back to hawk once I was able to down a pot.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Judgment not Blessing.
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Counterattack!
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Last night I was able to keep up Viper Sting on Bloodboil for most of the fight and never had mana problems.
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Originally Posted by brutish
Scroll of Agility V. I don't know why I don't see more people using these. You can usually find them on the AH for cheap.
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I think scrolls don't stack with class buffs like mark of the wild.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Kicking Viper on while your pots are on cool and you are under 20% mana seems like the best choice. Although I would immediately switch back to hawk once I was able to down a pot.
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As for using viper for the entire fight (was mentioned in some post, might not have been Glaurong), as viper is now so poor when you have a lot of mana, I'd always start hawk, drop a super mana as soon as I'm 3K mana down, which normally means you can pot once more, then hit viper for a minute or more, drop the fel mana, and back to hawk.
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Originally Posted by Tongaro
I think scrolls don't stack with class buffs like mark of the wild.
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I was wondering what a good dps SV spec would be. I'm torn between 0/21/40 or 0/24/37. Here is my current gear and talent setup
My armory
My armory
So we just downed Doomwalker and I got the barrel blade longrifle. Popped in 2 delicates and the crit scope and I was all happy. Until I realized it was 2dps more than wolfslayer and .1 second faster. I've been clipping so many more of my shots now with this gun. Any ideas. Was it a bad choice? Should I just stick to Auto Steady and weave in Arcane, forgetting multi?
Least I have a weapon if/when I go back to BM.
Least I have a weapon if/when I go back to BM.
| Another suggestion that I like, but other hunters do not, is using a wind serpent in place of your cat. With such a high crit, my wind serpent does significantly more DPS than my cat. Of course, you would have to macro the Lightning Breadth since it is currently buggy on autocast. Good luck! |
just add in /cast LightningBreath There may be a space before breath.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
barrel blade longrifle [...]Was it a bad choice?
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Weaving arcane only:
WolfSlayer Sniper Rifle gives 1225.05 dps
Barrel Blade Longrifle gives 1219.99 dps
Weaving arcane and multi:
WolfSlayer Sniper Rifle gives 1234.51 dps
Barrel Blade Longrifle gives 1229.90 dps
*dps includes pet damage, over 50-shot cycle, raid buffed (Gift, might, kings, Major Agility, Warp Burger), assuming 0.2 sec latency*
Based on these numbers, the WSR gives you better dps than the BBL. I also noticed that under the above latency conditions, your auto-shot frequency under either shot cycle was 2.7 seconds, meaning that you would "clip" more using BBL, thus attributing to its lower dps output.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Should I just stick to Auto Steady and weave in Arcane, forgetting multi?
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However, since the BBL gives you an additional 21.5 agi (raid-buffed), it translates to a ~5AP stronger EW. Whether or not this effect is worth taking the 5~6dps hit for you depends on how many physical dps you have in the raid.
Hope this helps, and please let me know if there's any discrepancies in the calculations.
I am saddened that I spent dkp on a downgrade. This is taking into account the gems and crit scope, true?
Well, I wouldn't worry about that very much. Using simple 1:1 rotations, (but working with somewhat different gear -t5shoulders+chest, 3/5 t4 and 2 [Netherbane] and the rest of the slots are similar), and my current Survival spec, [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] pulls ahead of [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle]
Here are the results with [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman]
Wolfslayer 1117.77 dps
Barrel-Blade 1139.36 dps
Here are the results with [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman]
Wolfslayer 1068.77 dps
Barrel Blade 1096.71 dps
Everything else was the same way, gems were [Delicate Living Ruby] after getting the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] prerequisites. I used a cat for testing, and all my usual raid buffs except shamans, since i never get grouped with one. I used a fully debuffed (5xsunder, Imp Hunter's mark EW) Lurker Below as a benchmark. The values i took into account are the hunter's personal dps, NOT the total (hunter+pet) dps.
Also, i used [Stabilized Eternium Scope], [Felbane Slugs] and [Smuggler's Ammo Pouch]
Now, obviously, this doesn't refer to your exact situation, but it does show that simply skipping all specials seems to benefit Barrel-Blade more, even as SV build. So, the DKP is not wasted completely.
Here are the results with [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman]
Wolfslayer 1117.77 dps
Barrel-Blade 1139.36 dps
Here are the results with [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman]
Wolfslayer 1068.77 dps
Barrel Blade 1096.71 dps
Everything else was the same way, gems were [Delicate Living Ruby] after getting the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] prerequisites. I used a cat for testing, and all my usual raid buffs except shamans, since i never get grouped with one. I used a fully debuffed (5xsunder, Imp Hunter's mark EW) Lurker Below as a benchmark. The values i took into account are the hunter's personal dps, NOT the total (hunter+pet) dps.
Also, i used [Stabilized Eternium Scope], [Felbane Slugs] and [Smuggler's Ammo Pouch]
Now, obviously, this doesn't refer to your exact situation, but it does show that simply skipping all specials seems to benefit Barrel-Blade more, even as SV build. So, the DKP is not wasted completely.
First off I don't play a hunter the survial hunter is my GF charcter, but i do alot of research on hunters,
I Saw earlier in the post that people were throwing around that GCD stops auto shot from casting when it doesn't from all the testing I've done and from other melee classes i play, things that are Effected by GCD are things that trigger it as well, that said if your doing a 1:1.5 shot rotation seems you have to put steady shot first because its cast time will stop auto shot from casting. A macro i played with on Dr. boom yeilded about a 1000 dps for 2 min and non epic ammo was used The World of Warcraft Armory
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot,
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath(Rank 6) '
another thing i seemed to notice is the value of agi for a SV hunter (ap wise) with
with 1000 agi =1000 ap *LR(1.15) 1150 Agi + kings (*1.10) 1265agi so thats now 1265 ap from the agi ad SI(1.04) gives the agi now 1315.6 ap finally adding on EW to your own ap assuming its up 30s/per 1 min the agility you have will give an additonal 158 ap to your own giveing you 1473ap so it seems like per point of AGI you get you fain 1.5 ap almost plus crit which allows EW to stay up more often increaseing the ratio further. so in the end would you really ever not want to put AGI in your gear (GEM, Enchant) to gain .5 more ap and no crit.
well thats my 2 cents
I Saw earlier in the post that people were throwing around that GCD stops auto shot from casting when it doesn't from all the testing I've done and from other melee classes i play, things that are Effected by GCD are things that trigger it as well, that said if your doing a 1:1.5 shot rotation seems you have to put steady shot first because its cast time will stop auto shot from casting. A macro i played with on Dr. boom yeilded about a 1000 dps for 2 min and non epic ammo was used The World of Warcraft Armory
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot,
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath(Rank 6) '
another thing i seemed to notice is the value of agi for a SV hunter (ap wise) with
with 1000 agi =1000 ap *LR(1.15) 1150 Agi + kings (*1.10) 1265agi so thats now 1265 ap from the agi ad SI(1.04) gives the agi now 1315.6 ap finally adding on EW to your own ap assuming its up 30s/per 1 min the agility you have will give an additonal 158 ap to your own giveing you 1473ap so it seems like per point of AGI you get you fain 1.5 ap almost plus crit which allows EW to stay up more often increaseing the ratio further. so in the end would you really ever not want to put AGI in your gear (GEM, Enchant) to gain .5 more ap and no crit.
well thats my 2 cents
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Originally Posted by Claps
A macro i played with on Dr. boom yeilded about a 1000 dps for 2 min and non epic ammo was used The World of Warcraft Armory
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath(Rank 6) ' |
I specced into improve arcane shot (took points out of barrage and rapid killing) and saw about a 100 dps improvement using this macro instead of the standard one above:
/castrandom reset=2 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Multi-shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Enova
Well, I wouldn't worry about that very much. Using simple 1:1 rotations, (but working with somewhat different gear -t5shoulders+chest, 3/5 t4 and 2 [Netherbane] and the rest of the slots are similar), and my current Survival spec, [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] pulls ahead of [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle]
Here are the results with [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman] Wolfslayer 1117.77 dps Barrel-Blade 1139.36 dps Here are the results with [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman] Wolfslayer 1068.77 dps Barrel Blade 1096.71 dps Everything else was the same way, gems were [Delicate Living Ruby] after getting the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] prerequisites. I used a cat for testing, and all my usual raid buffs except shamans, since i never get grouped with one. I used a fully debuffed (5xsunder, Imp Hunter's mark EW) Lurker Below as a benchmark. The values i took into account are the hunter's personal dps, NOT the total (hunter+pet) dps. Also, i used [Stabilized Eternium Scope], [Felbane Slugs] and [Smuggler's Ammo Pouch] Now, obviously, this doesn't refer to your exact situation, but it does show that simply skipping all specials seems to benefit Barrel-Blade more, even as SV build. So, the DKP is not wasted completely. |
Last edited by Gruknok : 11/06/07 at 12:21 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Now test sunfury, rank 1 multi, viper and 1.1:5 rotation with 5/5 MT instead of IAotH. Im sure youll see much higher dps and higher efficiency as survival.
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1. [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman]
Sunfury 1189.93 dps
Wolfslayer 1165.18 dps
Barrel-Blade 1171.71 dps
2. [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman] (and this was quite a big surprise for me, as a Dragonspine owner)
Sunfury 1200.00 dps
Wolfslayer 1152.21 dps
Barrel-Blade 1154.97 dps
Same setup as before, except using Viper and the 1:1.x rotation. I've used my talent spec (0/20/41 for both this and the previous tests, so there is no IAOTH), and default latency of 0.2
EDIT: Worth taking into account the Expose Weakness effects
214.31 AP for Sunfury
226,13 AP for Barrel Blade with 2x[Delicate Living Ruby]
228.80 AP for Barrel-Blade with 1x[Delicate Fire Ruby]
Last edited by Enova : 11/06/07 at 1:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Enova
2. [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman] (and this was quite a big surprise for me, as a Dragonspine owner)
Sunfury 1200.00 dps Wolfslayer 1152.21 dps Barrel-Blade 1154.97 dps Same setup as before, except using Viper and the 1:1.x rotation. I've used my talent spec (0/20/41 for both this and the previous tests, so there is no IAOTH), and default latency of 0.2 |
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
The [Dragonspine Trophy] no longer provides enough haste to make the 1:1 rotation under proc out-perform the 1:1.5 rotation without haste effects. For mana efficiency the DST is great for MM/Survival Hunters, for pure DPS isn't not good at all.
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Originally Posted by Enova
I have no idea how accurate the Viper calculations are, based on the new scaling with the mana pool percentages.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
I didn't change anything for Viper with the 2.2 changes. I just have no clue how to model it in any meaningful way.
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-0.35 * (Mana / Max) + 0.5
I'm attaching a spreadsheet that has some calculations.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Pretty sure the function for how much of your Intellect is returned in Mp5 is:
-0.35 * (Mana / Max) + 0.5 I'm attaching a spreadsheet that has some calculations. |
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Enova
Fair enough, I've been expecting Sunfury to be a better Survival dps weapon, and here are the results (Multishot is not rank 1, though)
1. [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman] Sunfury 1189.93 dps Wolfslayer 1165.18 dps Barrel-Blade 1171.71 dps 2. [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman] (and this was quite a big surprise for me, as a Dragonspine owner) Sunfury 1200.00 dps Wolfslayer 1152.21 dps Barrel-Blade 1154.97 dps Same setup as before, except using Viper and the 1:1.x rotation. I've used my talent spec (0/20/41 for both this and the previous tests, so there is no IAOTH), and default latency of 0.2 EDIT: Worth taking into account the Expose Weakness effects 214.31 AP for Sunfury 226,13 AP for Barrel Blade with 2x[Delicate Living Ruby] 228.80 AP for Barrel-Blade with 1x[Delicate Fire Ruby] |
I don't suppose you could do some testing with Tsunami Talisman and the Hourglass of the Unraveller for me since you already have the baseline?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
I don't suppose you could do some testing with Tsunami Talisman and the Hourglass of the Unraveller for me since you already have the baseline?
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EDIT: Using Aspect of the Hawk /EDIT
1:1 shot rotations:
Sunfury: 1025.78 dps
Wolfslayer 1051.79 dps
Barrel-Blade (with 2x[Delicate Living Ruby]) 1085.36 dps
1:1.x shot rotations: (but as i've stated before, i doubt in anything past optimal latency you could sustain this kind of rotation with a Barrel-Blade)
Sunfury: 1217.54
Wolfslayer: 1169.20
Barrel-Blade: 1162.83
EDIT: Subsequently, I've also introduced data using Aspect of the Viper /EDIT
1:1 rotation
Sunfury: 994.75
Wolfslayer: 1019.62
Barrel-Blade: 1052.34
1:1.5 rotation
Sunfury: 1181.43
Wolfslayer: 1134.09
Barrel-Blade: 1128.03
Last edited by Enova : 11/07/07 at 6:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
I don't suppose you could do some testing with Tsunami Talisman and the Hourglass of the Unraveller for me since you already have the baseline?
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ZA trinket will be by far the best trinket for hunters till sunwell i believe. Thus ZA trinket + Tsunami will be perfect for survival.
Hey all, just wanted to report back in and say thanks for the help. I seem to have improved a bit from last week already! Here's our night 1 in SSC. I had a shadowpriest for the back half of the night only. (Otherwise was grouped with healers and warlocks)
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Tidewalker afforded me the chance to break 1k! And a few of the other fights I was pretty satisfied as well. (Lurker for example) The others I still feel like I am underperforming, but maybe those fights are just not good to use a judge of my work ethic.
I can't tell if the Wind Serpent is doing decent damage or not, since I he was not afforded buffs, or any kind of solid grouping to boost up his damage. So for the time being he gets to stay and I'll see how it goes. Thanks again guys, and as always, if you see something I've missed, or need to change, please help me figure it out.
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Tidewalker afforded me the chance to break 1k! And a few of the other fights I was pretty satisfied as well. (Lurker for example) The others I still feel like I am underperforming, but maybe those fights are just not good to use a judge of my work ethic.
I can't tell if the Wind Serpent is doing decent damage or not, since I he was not afforded buffs, or any kind of solid grouping to boost up his damage. So for the time being he gets to stay and I'll see how it goes. Thanks again guys, and as always, if you see something I've missed, or need to change, please help me figure it out.
I fucking need to run Kara. I'm BM now because my weapon just sucks for survival and miss it so much. Glowing red sucks.
Well, Al'ar works too. [Arcanite Steam-Pistol] vs [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]. Personally, though, i'll take my chances on Vashj or the season 3 bow.
.
Hey, what are the 5 best weapons, or best weapon combos for survival hunters?
Halbred of Desolation, Netherbane, Legionkiller, sonic spear. IMO those have teh biggest gain chance.
Thw Twinblade of the Phoenix is not that bad either, it may seems it does not have agi, but in fact 3 sockets equals to 30 AGI with BT gems.
Not the best agi you can have on a weapon, but the amount of crit rating and raw attack power it has makes up for it.
Not the best agi you can have on a weapon, but the amount of crit rating and raw attack power it has makes up for it.
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Originally Posted by Gurth
Thw Twinblade of the Phoenix is not that bad either, it may seems it does not have agi, but in fact 3 sockets equals to 30 AGI with BT gems.
Not the best agi you can have on a weapon, but the amount of crit rating and raw attack power it has makes up for it. |
Also hit rating is easier to cap with Survival gear.
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Originally Posted by Claps
First off I don't play a hunter the survial hunter is my GF charcter, but i do alot of research on hunters,
I Saw earlier in the post that people were throwing around that GCD stops auto shot from casting when it doesn't from all the testing I've done and from other melee classes i play, things that are Effected by GCD are things that trigger it as well, that said if your doing a 1:1.5 shot rotation seems you have to put steady shot first because its cast time will stop auto shot from casting. A macro i played with on Dr. boom yeilded about a 1000 dps for 2 min and non epic ammo was used The World of Warcraft Armory /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath |
When I went to the cast sequence:
/castsequence reset=5/combat Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/use Bladefist's Breadth
I averaged 1061 dps until I went OOM which took about 3 minutes. Her gear has more attack power and she has a better ranged weapon than I (I have sunfury still because Vashj and Supremus hate me)
Perhaps that macro is meant for another weapon speed, if I were her, I'd at least try that cast sequence to see if it improves her performance. not that breaking 1k is bad...but there may be room to improve.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
I value Twin-blade over Desolation. Sure it has no agility by itself but has 3 sockets. Combined with Void Reaver -> Bow-Stiched leggings thats all you need to meet requirements on RED. And can gem everything else with pure agility and/or Agi+Hit gems.
Also hit rating is easier to cap with Survival gear. |
Also crit/AP based gear is ilvl inefficient (see Level (Item - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft))
40 agi costs "40" on item budget, and gives: 40 AP, 22 crit rating, or "42" item budget were you to buy the crit via other means. (not being anal on the .08 on crit rating)
Kings increases this to 44 AP and 24.2 crit rating, or "46.2" item budget points.
Adding LR increases this to "52.5" item budget points.
So in general agi gear >> AP/crit for SV (Well, Duh!).
Taking the specific items in question:
Desolation: 51 agi, 30 hit, 100 AP -> 35 crit rating, 30 hit, 163.75 AP raid buffed.
Twinblade (assuming 10 agi, 5 agi/5 hit, 5 agi/7 sta): 20 agi, 37 crit rating, 5 hit rating, 110 AP -> 50 crit rating, 5 hit rating, 143 AP raid buffed
Seems to boil down to: 25 hit rating, 20 AP versus 4 stamina, 15 crit rating
You do have half your meta requirements done, but still doesn't seem a tremendous deal to me.
I didn't even go near EW maths here, I think 30 additional agi wins over 15 crit rating though, as just read back through this thread and you'll see a lot of talk about how crit really slows in helping EW uptime somewhere around 40%.
(I am ignoring +4% AP talents, I don't think they make a significant difference)
Now, if twinblade is about to find a new home on a pile for void crystals, by all means. But don't be surprised if you raise some ire from your raid mates if you bid for and win the sword and pass on desolation .
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Originally Posted by kultheel
Now, if twinblade is about to find a new home on a pile for void crystals, by all means. But don't be surprised if you raise some ire from your raid mates if you bid for and win the sword and pass on desolation .
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Got first Twin-Blade that dropped. And I did pass Halberd 2x now to BM hunters, they need that extra hit rating far more than me for now. And there was no "hate" from our warrior, he had S2 and now jumps around with Cataclysm Edge.
I played allot with spreadsheet and Twin-Blade + Bow-Stiched leggings really made things easier on gemming, no socket bonuses skipped and care free upgrading of other gear for quite some time.
Armory doesn't show it right now (some stamina gear on me) but I'm at 97 hit rating + 3/3 surefooted. I'm about to get extra hit rating on ring (Akama). Desolation right now would not provide any hit rating for me because all the other gear is "best" I have and will have for some time.
Hey guys,
Thanks for the info on survival weapons.
I don't know how many of you guys have checked out my armory profile (I hope non), but you'll see that I have mostly just odd assortments of PvP gear and kara bullshit. I'm obviously not an endgame heavy raider like you guys, but for now, while we are in gruul, kara, mag and what not, I'd like to maximize my survival hunter and his AP buff.
I know survival isn't as good until 700 agi, but I'm working there so, please don criticize me on that yet. I'm looking into getting 2x stellaris with +20 agi enchants on them... that seems to be the most agi I can get at my stage in the game.
Also, the veteran's pvp gear seems to have better stats for me than anything out of kara, gruul, and mag. Is this so?
Well, sorry for the low-end questions, I'm open to any wisdom you guys got, and thanks again for helping out.
Thanks for the info on survival weapons.
I don't know how many of you guys have checked out my armory profile (I hope non), but you'll see that I have mostly just odd assortments of PvP gear and kara bullshit. I'm obviously not an endgame heavy raider like you guys, but for now, while we are in gruul, kara, mag and what not, I'd like to maximize my survival hunter and his AP buff.
I know survival isn't as good until 700 agi, but I'm working there so, please don criticize me on that yet. I'm looking into getting 2x stellaris with +20 agi enchants on them... that seems to be the most agi I can get at my stage in the game.
Also, the veteran's pvp gear seems to have better stats for me than anything out of kara, gruul, and mag. Is this so?
Well, sorry for the low-end questions, I'm open to any wisdom you guys got, and thanks again for helping out.
After looking at a couple of several different shot rotations i cant seem to find the one that best fits a 41/20/0 with the 15% from quiver the sunfury bow of the phoenix(2.90 speed).
The rotation I've been using consists of:
-steady auto arcane auto multi auto steady auto steady auto-
This is a link to my build:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Does that rotation seem right or should i change it?
The rotation I've been using consists of:
-steady auto arcane auto multi auto steady auto steady auto-
This is a link to my build:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Does that rotation seem right or should i change it?
.
Yeah, that shot rotation looks sweet. That's what I use.
The only thing I would change, if you use your pet much, you can throw a kill command in like this:
startcombat - auto, steady, arcane, auto, kill, multi, auto, steady, auto, steady auto, steady arcane auto...
so pretty much what you have there.
The only thing I would change, if you use your pet much, you can throw a kill command in like this:
startcombat - auto, steady, arcane, auto, kill, multi, auto, steady, auto, steady auto, steady arcane auto...
so pretty much what you have there.
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Originally Posted by hjm87
After looking at a couple of several different shot rotations i cant seem to find the one that best fits a 41/20/0 with the 15% from quiver the sunfury bow of the phoenix(2.90 speed).
The rotation I've been using consists of: -steady auto arcane auto multi auto steady auto steady auto- This is a link to my build: The World of Warcraft Armory Does that rotation seem right or should i change it? |
First off you are beast spec, and this is a survival spec thread. There is another thread for beast. To answer you question though, beast master hunters typically go with just a steady, auto rotation with kill command. All hasted up you cant really work in any other specials reliably. That rotation assumes your multi and arcane hit for substantially more than your steady as well. Probably any extra dmg they might add doesnt offset the substantial shift in mana cost.
Hey all, just a quick question here. I've been using the steady,arcane,auto,steady,auto (repeat) rotation with my survival hybrid spec. (I love it! And when I have a shadow priest, it's soooo great.)
But last night, after the patch, I got really thrown off. I kept getting the following:
You cast Arcane Shot on Target.
Your steady shot hits for .... on target.
Your arcane shot hits for .... on target.
Auto
Steady
Auto
You cast Arcane Shot...
repeat....
So it's telling me that I am casting Arcane, but its not really casting it? It gets the steady off first and THEN the arcane hits? (That is how it's supposed to go timing wise, but lordy, seeing it in my combat chat log was freaking me out.)
If it's just a messaging glitch, is there a way to get just the 'you cast' part out of the log? Also, I've heard people saying their macros are not working and I was concerned over whether or not this is a macro issue instead maybe.
Thanks.
But last night, after the patch, I got really thrown off. I kept getting the following:
You cast Arcane Shot on Target.
Your steady shot hits for .... on target.
Your arcane shot hits for .... on target.
Auto
Steady
Auto
You cast Arcane Shot...
repeat....
So it's telling me that I am casting Arcane, but its not really casting it? It gets the steady off first and THEN the arcane hits? (That is how it's supposed to go timing wise, but lordy, seeing it in my combat chat log was freaking me out.)
If it's just a messaging glitch, is there a way to get just the 'you cast' part out of the log? Also, I've heard people saying their macros are not working and I was concerned over whether or not this is a macro issue instead maybe.
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
Hey all, just a quick question here. I've been using the steady,arcane,auto,steady,auto (repeat) rotation with my survival hybrid spec. (I love it! And when I have a shadow priest, it's soooo great.)
But last night, after the patch, I got really thrown off. I kept getting the following: You cast Arcane Shot on Target. Your steady shot hits for .... on target. Your arcane shot hits for .... on target. Auto Steady Auto You cast Arcane Shot... repeat.... So it's telling me that I am casting Arcane, but its not really casting it? It gets the steady off first and THEN the arcane hits? (That is how it's supposed to go timing wise, but lordy, seeing it in my combat chat log was freaking me out.) If it's just a messaging glitch, is there a way to get just the 'you cast' part out of the log? Also, I've heard people saying their macros are not working and I was concerned over whether or not this is a macro issue instead maybe. Thanks. |
I'm in the same boat as lil wolf, my macro kept canceling or casting in the wrong order.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Does anyone know if this is a known bug with release? was working fine on the test server.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Does anyone know if this is a known bug with release? was working fine on the test server.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
First off you are beast spec, and this is a survival spec thread. There is another thread for beast. To answer you question though, beast master hunters typically go with just a steady, auto rotation with kill command. All hasted up you cant really work in any other specials reliably. That rotation assumes your multi and arcane hit for substantially more than your steady as well. Probably any extra dmg they might add doesnt offset the substantial shift in mana cost.
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Hehehe.....
Sorry i had like a million threads open looking for a rotation. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
I'm in the same boat as lil wolf, my macro kept canceling or casting in the wrong order.
#showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /script UIErrorsFrame:Show() Does anyone know if this is a known bug with release? was working fine on the test server. |
My Steady->Arcane->Auto->Multi->Auto->Steady->Arcane->Auto->Steady->Auto macro works perfectly with 2.3. But, my Steady->Auto does not (I get 2 steadys in between every auto). At one point, there was a bug that explained this behavior, but they fixed in the latest PTR build. I suspect that we didn't get that fix in the live 2.3. I believe it is because of downtime in my macro. The working macro has no downtime since it clips a little. Once I pop rapid fire (which eliminates the downtime), my steady->auto macro works again.
Edit: I just realized that there was a lot of complaints about the latest PTR castsequence behavior where you would have to press the macro at the right time in order for the autoshot to count. It is not acting that way in live 2.3, so I suspect that they reverted the fix that I mentioned above. So, now we have broken castsequences in live 2.3.
Edit: I just realized that there was a lot of complaints about the latest PTR castsequence behavior where you would have to press the macro at the right time in order for the autoshot to count. It is not acting that way in live 2.3, so I suspect that they reverted the fix that I mentioned above. So, now we have broken castsequences in live 2.3.
Hey all, new hunter to the forums here and i was just wondering what you all thought about a few things!
So we've got a ton of hunters in the guild, most of us are BM with a few rogue marksman (I don't know why). We are currently have downed Mag/Gruul Void and Lurker and are rapidly progressing through SSC and TK (its been 2 weeks).
I have this sick obsession with wanting to go ahead and be the DPS martyr of the guild and go survival, mainly because id like the be that one hunter that the raids finds "important" as it were. I usually out dps most if not all of the other hunters but id rather help the raid and down stuff rather than stroke my epeen.
http://wowarmory.com/character-sheet...zhul&n=Leneson
Theres a link to my armory, I'm missing some seriously big pieces of gear (Hourglass, WEAPON(getting s3 axe), garona's signet, better shoulders). But generally, do i have enough gear to go survival and make it worthwhile not only in personal dps but in raid help? Any gear suggestion would be welcome, Zul' Aman gear so far is terrible, with the biggest upgrade being a leather helm from the last boss , and of course the ring, thats how it seems anyways. I guess theres the bow and gun but its hard to say how much of a dps upgrade they are. When i go into the spreadsheet it looks as if the pvp non set epic would be an increase in dps, but thats as BM, so really i don't know if that holds true if i went survival.
Thanks in advance for the help! Looking forward to going survival soon!
So we've got a ton of hunters in the guild, most of us are BM with a few rogue marksman (I don't know why). We are currently have downed Mag/Gruul Void and Lurker and are rapidly progressing through SSC and TK (its been 2 weeks).
I have this sick obsession with wanting to go ahead and be the DPS martyr of the guild and go survival, mainly because id like the be that one hunter that the raids finds "important" as it were. I usually out dps most if not all of the other hunters but id rather help the raid and down stuff rather than stroke my epeen.
http://wowarmory.com/character-sheet...zhul&n=Leneson
Theres a link to my armory, I'm missing some seriously big pieces of gear (Hourglass, WEAPON(getting s3 axe), garona's signet, better shoulders). But generally, do i have enough gear to go survival and make it worthwhile not only in personal dps but in raid help? Any gear suggestion would be welcome, Zul' Aman gear so far is terrible, with the biggest upgrade being a leather helm from the last boss , and of course the ring, thats how it seems anyways. I guess theres the bow and gun but its hard to say how much of a dps upgrade they are. When i go into the spreadsheet it looks as if the pvp non set epic would be an increase in dps, but thats as BM, so really i don't know if that holds true if i went survival.
Thanks in advance for the help! Looking forward to going survival soon!
US Armoury is down, so I can't see you gear, but as SV I certainly won't want the S3 Axe. Agility is sooo much better than crit/AP items for Survival, particularly in raids with Kings (see my post a page back comparing Halberd to Twinblade). I would suspect even Legacy has a chance of being better than the S3 Axe for SV in PvE (if you don't need the hit), the Naj'entus stick certainly is better.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Leneson
Hey all, new hunter to the forums here and i was just wondering what you all thought about a few things!
So we've got a ton of hunters in the guild, most of us are BM with a few rogue marksman (I don't know why). We are currently have downed Mag/Gruul Void and Lurker and are rapidly progressing through SSC and TK (its been 2 weeks). I have this sick obsession with wanting to go ahead and be the DPS martyr of the guild and go survival, mainly because id like the be that one hunter that the raids finds "important" as it were. I usually out dps most if not all of the other hunters but id rather help the raid and down stuff rather than stroke my epeen. The World of Warcraft Armory Theres a link to my armory, I'm missing some seriously big pieces of gear (Hourglass, WEAPON(getting s3 axe), garona's signet, better shoulders). But generally, do i have enough gear to go survival and make it worthwhile not only in personal dps but in raid help? Any gear suggestion would be welcome, Zul' Aman gear so far is terrible, with the biggest upgrade being a leather helm from the last boss , and of course the ring, thats how it seems anyways. I guess theres the bow and gun but its hard to say how much of a dps upgrade they are. When i go into the spreadsheet it looks as if the pvp non set epic would be an increase in dps, but thats as BM, so really i don't know if that holds true if i went survival. Thanks in advance for the help! Looking forward to going survival soon! |
Armory is back up...
I've been survival for a while and playing with the spreadsheet there's some good upgrades between ZA and the new heroic rewards.... however there are some disappointing items from a survival PoV like the ZA chest and shoulders.
My recommendations:
Weapon:
Go for 2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo] or [Trollbane] both from ZA, the daggers are better if you can get them... put agility enchants on these... remember Agility>AP for any hunter build.
Helm:
Season 3 > [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] > Season 2 > T4... not sure how your current leather helm fits into the equation.
Shoulder:
Highly recommend getting Season 2 shoulders after they come down in price, they are on par with T5
Chest:
Hydross Chest if your guild is going to down him... in the meantime get a +6 to all stats enchant
Bracers:
New heroic reward [Steadying Bracers] > Stalker's war bands
Gloves:
T4 are the suck go for [Gauntlets of Sniping] (heroic reward) or [Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer] (gruul)
Belt:
[Bladeangel's Money Belt] from ZA is really sexy
Rings:
Garona's Signet & the new ZA ring... get rid of the master assassin ring ASAP! buy [Pathfinder's Band] off the AH if you can to replace it.
Trinket:
[Berserker's Call] from ZA and [Bloodlust Brooch]
Bow:
Get a +28 Crit Scope!
The ZA Bow is an upgrade over the Prince Bow
The Season 3 XBOW is a big upgrade from the Prince Bow
Spec:
Recommend switching to 0/24/37 or 0/20/41... IAoTH is not a good talent for maintaining a 1:1.5 SV shot rotation
- Vas
Last edited by Vasilii : 11/16/07 at 3:03 PM.
I've been messing around and from a Survival PoV for high end raidbuffing and quite a good dps what's the best gear combo avaiable?
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
I've been messing around and from a Survival PoV for high end raidbuffing and quite a good dps what's the best gear combo avaiable?
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Vasilli, I didn't want to quote your whole post for space but a couple of items I may add to that list are, bracers Master Assassins or the new PVP ones in addition to Gloves of Dextrous Manipulation are hawt from Kara.
I am posting this here since it has to do with Deterrence and I could not find a more appropriate thread to do so.
Basically, we are able to do MD+Deterrence pulls, but only after the first MD after logging in. Let me explain.
Last night we had our first Archimonde kill. We decided to tank Archimonde near a cliff with the MT standing with his back to the cliff. Therefore, it was my job to MD-pull Archimonde to the MT. I did the usual MD on the MT and since I did not want to risk anything, I popped Deterrence right after and ran towards Archimonde to initiate the pull. What happened next surprised me and the other hunter in the raid: Archimonde starts running towards me since his body-pull range is quite a lot bigger than my attack range, but before I could fire a shot, he started running towards the MT. It seems like the ticks of Deterrence counts as threat and it was misdirected to the MT.
I have to re-iterate though that this occurred only from the second MD onward after logging into the game world. The very first MD I used after logging in did not result in Archimonde running towards the MT after popping MD+Deterrence.
I am at work at the moment and cannot check if this is an Archimonde-specific issue or whether it can be reproduced against other mobs as well. It does give us some leeway in pulling to the tank in situations where the body-pull range can be higher than our attack range.
Basically, we are able to do MD+Deterrence pulls, but only after the first MD after logging in. Let me explain.
Last night we had our first Archimonde kill. We decided to tank Archimonde near a cliff with the MT standing with his back to the cliff. Therefore, it was my job to MD-pull Archimonde to the MT. I did the usual MD on the MT and since I did not want to risk anything, I popped Deterrence right after and ran towards Archimonde to initiate the pull. What happened next surprised me and the other hunter in the raid: Archimonde starts running towards me since his body-pull range is quite a lot bigger than my attack range, but before I could fire a shot, he started running towards the MT. It seems like the ticks of Deterrence counts as threat and it was misdirected to the MT.
I have to re-iterate though that this occurred only from the second MD onward after logging into the game world. The very first MD I used after logging in did not result in Archimonde running towards the MT after popping MD+Deterrence.
I am at work at the moment and cannot check if this is an Archimonde-specific issue or whether it can be reproduced against other mobs as well. It does give us some leeway in pulling to the tank in situations where the body-pull range can be higher than our attack range.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
My recommendations:
Weapon: Go for 2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo] or [Trollbane] both from ZA, the daggers are better if you can get them... put agility enchants on these... remember Agility>AP for any hunter build. |
2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo] =
82 Agility
80 Ap
280 Armor Ignore (in the neighborhood of 2% damage boost)
[Trollbane] =
89 Agi
100 Ap
65 Stam
OR
94 Agi
94 Ap
58 Stam
12 Agility and 14 attack power equate to a personal DPS gain of approximately 16dps, and additional Expose Weakness effect of a little over 1 dps per physical attacker.
Assuming 1k dps, these come out really equal. Except that the two hander has 58 (or 65, depending on gem preferrence) more stam, and significantly harder raptor strikes for when you just have to melee.
You've got to get your stam somewhere, and I really think this is the place to do it, you won't find a 58+ stam upgrade anywhere else for as cheap.
I think you're underestimating armor penetration, using the spreadsheet the daggers come out about 13 dps ahead, and that's assuming crimson spinels in Trollbane which might be in short supply unless you've been farming BT for a while. And personally I've never found stamina to be a problem as survival, between Survivalist and the fairly high stamina on most mail gear I have more HP than almost any non-tank in a raid, combined with 4% less damage taken surviving becomes almost a non-issue. Of course more stamina doesn't hurt but I wouldn't sacrifice DPS for it.
I've recently switched to Survival spec and as expected I've noticed a drop in personal dps (about 100dps drop from BM). Fully raid buffed I have 1024 agility. Before speccing SV I was 41/20 BM. SV utility in raids revolves largely around expose weakness. In my case that means giving all physical attackers a little more than a 250ap buff, but with all the BC content, there are so many bosses where dps is split ie. casters/ranged dps on one mob, and melee on another. This is where I find myself on the fence for the whole SV spec and the "benefit" it really has for raids.
Our raid make up runs pretty heavy on physical dmg. 3-4 tanks 2-3 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 2-3 hunters which is great for gaining full benefit of expose weakness, but again dps is all too many times split. So I guess my question is, how do I figure out if/when expose weakness is buffing the rest of the physical dps enough to surpass the loss in my own personal dps from not being BM with FI, and enough mana efficiency to run 5/5 imp Hunters Mark?
Our raid make up runs pretty heavy on physical dmg. 3-4 tanks 2-3 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 2-3 hunters which is great for gaining full benefit of expose weakness, but again dps is all too many times split. So I guess my question is, how do I figure out if/when expose weakness is buffing the rest of the physical dps enough to surpass the loss in my own personal dps from not being BM with FI, and enough mana efficiency to run 5/5 imp Hunters Mark?
If dps is split you should go with melees unless there is a major need of dps on the ranged target or you have other duties.
I haven't been able to upgrade my gear in about a month. With ZA and the new badge items, and with me waiting for the breastplate off hydross, i'm wondering what i could do to improve my gear as well.... here's to logging out on my surv gear... And as far as 25 man raiding goes, we've only cleared ssc:Hydoss, lurker, eye:the lootchicken and solarian, and we're about 1 run away from full clearing ZA with kara and grull on farm. ideas?
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Originally Posted by Gurth
If dps is split you should go with melees unless there is a major need of dps on the ranged target or you have other duties.
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If you hadn't shot yet, it could also have been the tank popping bloodrage that drew aggro.
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Originally Posted by Grappas
I've recently switched to Survival spec and as expected I've noticed a drop in personal dps (about 100dps drop from BM). Fully raid buffed I have 1024 agility. Before speccing SV I was 41/20 BM. SV utility in raids revolves largely around expose weakness. In my case that means giving all physical attackers a little more than a 250ap buff, but with all the BC content, there are so many bosses where dps is split ie. casters/ranged dps on one mob, and melee on another. This is where I find myself on the fence for the whole SV spec and the "benefit" it really has for raids.
Our raid make up runs pretty heavy on physical dmg. 3-4 tanks 2-3 rogues, 1 dps warrior, 2-3 hunters which is great for gaining full benefit of expose weakness, but again dps is all too many times split. So I guess my question is, how do I figure out if/when expose weakness is buffing the rest of the physical dps enough to surpass the loss in my own personal dps from not being BM with FI, and enough mana efficiency to run 5/5 imp Hunters Mark? |
your AP buff *0.3*(number of physical damage classes in raid-yourself)... so let's say you have 1000 agility and there are 8 total physical damage classes (not including pets).
250*0.3*7= 525 dps
This number is then added to your own personal dps... so let's say you are at ~950 dps you would add 525 onto that and see your total dps contribution to the raid. 1475... not too shabby.
Survival is absolutely a benefit and I have found it to be crucial during progression nights. The buff I give the raid is invaluable and you should take pride in it. I do not top the dps meters too often however, I consider my job well done if I can get the top five dps spots full of physical dps classes.
As for the other portion of your post, for any boss where dps is split, I absolutely stick with melee to provide them with the buff.
I"m trying to optimise my damage output aswell as maintain a high crit strike. I do realise I need replacements for my chest, legs, shoulder (currently using Merc Shoulders) and my helm.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Sorry I'm currently in PvP gear.
I was wondering if anyone had any tips as to how I could do what I"m trying to do, asides from respeccing. I like my spec, both pvp and pve wise
The World of Warcraft Armory
Sorry I'm currently in PvP gear.
I was wondering if anyone had any tips as to how I could do what I"m trying to do, asides from respeccing. I like my spec, both pvp and pve wise
So I'm reading through all this and wondering, does anyone have a new 2.3 decent working surv macro to spam?
Hey guys,
I was wondering if y'all could help me out here...
Basically, the only weapons I have access to right now for my survival hunter are Legacy(+35agi), 2x stellaris(+20agi each), and sonic spear(+35agi).
Which one would be better for a survival build? I figured Legacy, even though it has less agi than the twin stellaris. Are there any other weapons that are attainable outside of 25 man raids? (not a big raiding server)
I was wondering if y'all could help me out here...
Basically, the only weapons I have access to right now for my survival hunter are Legacy(+35agi), 2x stellaris(+20agi each), and sonic spear(+35agi).
Which one would be better for a survival build? I figured Legacy, even though it has less agi than the twin stellaris. Are there any other weapons that are attainable outside of 25 man raids? (not a big raiding server)
Legacy, unless you seriously lack hit rating, in that case sonic spear.
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Originally Posted by Jhagadurn
Hey guys,
I was wondering if y'all could help me out here... Basically, the only weapons I have access to right now for my survival hunter are Legacy(+35agi), 2x stellaris(+20agi each), and sonic spear(+35agi). Which one would be better for a survival build? I figured Legacy, even though it has less agi than the twin stellaris. Are there any other weapons that are attainable outside of 25 man raids? (not a big raiding server) |
Emerald ripper + blade of unrequited. DW ZA daggers.
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Originally Posted by Weebull
So I'm reading through all this and wondering, does anyone have a new 2.3 decent working surv macro to spam?
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/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(rank 1), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() ; script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Rank 6 multi if youre fine with mana
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Originally Posted by bodilly
Math on that doesn't line up at all.
2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo] = 82 Agility 80 Ap 280 Armor Ignore (in the neighborhood of 2% damage boost) [Trollbane] = 89 Agi 100 Ap 65 Stam OR 94 Agi 94 Ap 58 Stam 12 Agility and 14 attack power equate to a personal DPS gain of approximately 16dps, and additional Expose Weakness effect of a little over 1 dps per physical attacker. Assuming 1k dps, these come out really equal. Except that the two hander has 58 (or 65, depending on gem preferrence) more stam, and significantly harder raptor strikes for when you just have to melee. You've got to get your stam somewhere, and I really think this is the place to do it, you won't find a 58+ stam upgrade anywhere else for as cheap. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'm assuming that means trollabne is better than Legacy? I think I'm reading this right...
What about the new hunter axe in season 3?
On the same page, how does the new heroic badge cape Dory's Embrace compare to the other badge cape, Blood Knight's war cloak? And compared to Sergearnt's heavy cloak?
What about the new hunter axe in season 3?
On the same page, how does the new heroic badge cape Dory's Embrace compare to the other badge cape, Blood Knight's war cloak? And compared to Sergearnt's heavy cloak?
Last edited by Jhagadurn : 11/26/07 at 5:39 PM.
The new hunter axe, and both pvp capes offer zero agility, and therefore are not attractive to survival hunters in 25-man raids.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
The new hunter axe, and both pvp capes offer zero agility, and therefore are not attractive to survival hunters in 25-man raids.
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As for the axes, [Trollbane] vs [Legacy]... even ungemmed, Trollbane is slightly better than Legacy. Now, my advice would be to add 2[Delicate Living Ruby], ignoring the socket bonus, and get another 35 agility on it. However, if you need to fulfill the prerequisites for a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond], these should take priority over living rubies.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
The new hunter axe, and both pvp capes offer zero agility, and therefore are not attractive to survival hunters in 25-man raids.
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3 less agility than [Blood Knight War Cloak] but with the haste rating and AP it gives you a good DPS boost according to spreadsheet. And IMO if you are survival with your hit rating capped, which isnt hard to do, then [Trollbane], especially with option for two [Delicate Crimson Spinel] is better for survival than [Halberd of Desolation]
My guild farms Kara and Gruul, and while we wait for some of our members to get geared enough for SSC, I've been running Arena a bit. So far I've found S2 chest and shoulders to be great upgrades to my Raiding armor set, but I'm curious about the helm.
My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Armory's been flaky lately, but I have both T4 and Engineering Helm's. It seems that the S3 helm would be my best upgrade, out of all of the Arena items. I was all set to buy the S3 axe, for purely Arena use, but it seems the S3 helm would be a great PVP and Raid item. Am I on the right track?
I've had very good success with 0/28/33, coming in very close to my guild's BM hunters on Gruul. We have a pally who keeps up JoW full time, so mana is not an issue at all - we absolutely love Ret and Prot Pallys!
I've been using the following shot rotation macro:
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
For some reason, KC seemed to cause my macro to hang - other Hunters in my guild had the same issue, so after we removed it from our respective macro's, they seemed to work as normal.
My macro question is this: Since I'm literally swimming in mana, I'd like to add Multishot to my rotation. I have 4/5 Improved Arcane Shot, and I'm not sure how to optimally insert a Multishot into my macro. If I understand castsequence correctly, that is the number of seconds the macro will take to reset, and start from the beginning. If I added a second auto/steady/arcane sequence, would that be enough time for my Multishot cooldown to be up? Would a /castsequence=8 or 9 be more appropriate?
Hope my questions have not been answered before, I did search a bit, but always get sidetracked reading some informative post on another topic!
My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Armory's been flaky lately, but I have both T4 and Engineering Helm's. It seems that the S3 helm would be my best upgrade, out of all of the Arena items. I was all set to buy the S3 axe, for purely Arena use, but it seems the S3 helm would be a great PVP and Raid item. Am I on the right track?
I've had very good success with 0/28/33, coming in very close to my guild's BM hunters on Gruul. We have a pally who keeps up JoW full time, so mana is not an issue at all - we absolutely love Ret and Prot Pallys!
I've been using the following shot rotation macro:
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
For some reason, KC seemed to cause my macro to hang - other Hunters in my guild had the same issue, so after we removed it from our respective macro's, they seemed to work as normal.
My macro question is this: Since I'm literally swimming in mana, I'd like to add Multishot to my rotation. I have 4/5 Improved Arcane Shot, and I'm not sure how to optimally insert a Multishot into my macro. If I understand castsequence correctly, that is the number of seconds the macro will take to reset, and start from the beginning. If I added a second auto/steady/arcane sequence, would that be enough time for my Multishot cooldown to be up? Would a /castsequence=8 or 9 be more appropriate?
Hope my questions have not been answered before, I did search a bit, but always get sidetracked reading some informative post on another topic!
To include multi you can use it in place of any steady shot or in place of arcane in every second 2:3 rotation.
Reset timer if you include multi should be at least 10, because that is CD time for it.
Sample rotation:
/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Reset timer if you include multi should be at least 10, because that is CD time for it.
Sample rotation:
/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
To include multi you can use it in place of any steady shot or in place of arcane in every second 2:3 rotation.
Reset timer if you include multi should be at least 10, because that is CD time for it. Sample rotation: /castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot |
The reset timer isn't a timer on the whole macro, it resets if you don't cast any of the abilities in that time. Ten seconds is an extremely long timer and unnecessary. In a 1:1.5 rotation you have a couple options for a shot rotation, but none of the good ones involve replacing a steady shot with a multi-shot.
If you use multi-shot in your rotation, you don't need to spec into Imp. Arcane Shot. Your points would be better spent on Barrage.
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Originally Posted by ugla
This is pretty much wrong other than the sequence.
The reset timer isn't a timer on the whole macro, it resets if you don't cast any of the abilities in that time. Ten seconds is an extremely long timer and unnecessary. In a 1:1.5 rotation you have a couple options for a shot rotation, but none of the good ones involve replacing a steady shot with a multi-shot. If you use multi-shot in your rotation, you don't need to spec into Imp. Arcane Shot. Your points would be better spent on Barrage. |
- It does equal or more dps (from personal expirience and others that have posted WWS).
- Has better mana efficiency.
- Is a generally shorter macro which means you can complete a full rotation in less time allowing more mobility.
I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this I can't think why anyone would do it any other way.
I've edited post #17 in this thread to make a list of available gear.
http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html
Seemed a better idea than posting a new reply, and not being able to find it again 4 weeks later. Enjoy.
http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html
Seemed a better idea than posting a new reply, and not being able to find it again 4 weeks later. Enjoy.
After some extensive work with Cheeky's Spreadsheet, the S3 Helm gave me the most bang for my Arena point buck, so to speak, that will be my first upgrade.
For a DPS-per-Arena Point ratio, the S3 Bow was exactly as good as the S3 Helm, just takes twice the points - and a 1850 Raiting. The ZA Bow actually came out on top, even over the S3 bow, so I will track my guild's progression in ZA - if the ZA bow is in reach, I'll find other places to spend my Arena points.
Oddly enough, the S3 pants and gloves were downgrades in DPS, based on the spreadsheet. The S3 Chest and Shoulders were upgrades, but I doubt my casual team will earn a 2K ranking anytime soon.
Glad to know I can stick with my 1:1.5 shot rotation. I had worried that I was leaving DPS on the table, since I was finishing Gruul with quite a bit of mana on my bar - I may just cast Mend Pet more often, instead of having my pet at 50-75% health, and risking an early death from a cave-in.
Thanks for the help all!
For a DPS-per-Arena Point ratio, the S3 Bow was exactly as good as the S3 Helm, just takes twice the points - and a 1850 Raiting. The ZA Bow actually came out on top, even over the S3 bow, so I will track my guild's progression in ZA - if the ZA bow is in reach, I'll find other places to spend my Arena points.
Oddly enough, the S3 pants and gloves were downgrades in DPS, based on the spreadsheet. The S3 Chest and Shoulders were upgrades, but I doubt my casual team will earn a 2K ranking anytime soon.
Glad to know I can stick with my 1:1.5 shot rotation. I had worried that I was leaving DPS on the table, since I was finishing Gruul with quite a bit of mana on my bar - I may just cast Mend Pet more often, instead of having my pet at 50-75% health, and risking an early death from a cave-in.
Thanks for the help all!
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Originally Posted by Lumphoof
After some extensive work with Cheeky's Spreadsheet, the S3 Helm gave me the most bang for my Arena point buck, so to speak, that will be my first upgrade.
For a DPS-per-Arena Point ratio, the S3 Bow was exactly as good as the S3 Helm, just takes twice the points - and a 1850 Raiting. The ZA Bow actually came out on top, even over the S3 bow, so I will track my guild's progression in ZA - if the ZA bow is in reach, I'll find other places to spend my Arena points. Oddly enough, the S3 pants and gloves were downgrades in DPS, based on the spreadsheet. The S3 Chest and Shoulders were upgrades, but I doubt my casual team will earn a 2K ranking anytime soon. Glad to know I can stick with my 1:1.5 shot rotation. I had worried that I was leaving DPS on the table, since I was finishing Gruul with quite a bit of mana on my bar - I may just cast Mend Pet more often, instead of having my pet at 50-75% health, and risking an early death from a cave-in. Thanks for the help all! |
For my 0/20/41 Survival Build the Season 3 Bow comes out as a gain of 25 dps while the ZA Bow is only a gain of 9 (currently using the Prince Bow)... its interesting to note that the season 3 bow is even better than the vashj bow which came out as a gain of 20 dps
You are correct to say that the helm is by far the biggest upgrade in terms of dps for the season 3 armor.... the rest is very moderate in terms of dps gains over the season 2 or equivalent gear.
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html. Seemed a better idea than posting a new reply, and not being able to find it again 4 weeks later. Enjoy.
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1h melee : 21 [Messenger of Fate]
Head : 64 : 42+22 [Forest Prowler's Helm]
Waist : 38 [Boneweave Girdle]
Wrist : 19 [Wraps of Precise Flight]
Wrist : 35 : 25+10 [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Bow-stitched Leggings]
And one from Kazzak:
Legs : 71 41+34 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]
The leg slots increase the total (pre-buffs) by 5.
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
QFT. The point of the 4/5 iAS build is to time your 1:1.5 SS/AS macro so that its perfect down to a few milliseconds without using multishot. If you are going to use multishot anyway then you have 8 seconds or so between arcaneshots so a reduced cooldown is not necessary. That means you never need to change your macro for CC fights to avoid breaking sheep and you have better mana efficiency for single target dps. Also I'd say that the macro given in post 597 would be better if it started with steadyshot, generally it gives a better tighter rotation. To be honest you're better just not using multishot and sticking to the 5 shot 1:1.5 macro.
I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this I can't think why anyone would do it any other way. |
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Is this a better macro then? I'm not sure if I should put an Auto Shot after the last Steady Shot.
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this [improved arcane 5-shot macro] I can't think why anyone would do it any other way.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Nice post. Here are a few (relevant) T6 pieces you're missing:
1h melee : 21 [Messenger of Fate] Head : 64 : 42+22 [Forest Prowler's Helm] Waist : 38 [Boneweave Girdle] Wrist : 19 [Wraps of Precise Flight] Wrist : 35 : 25+10 [Bracers of the Pathfinder] Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Bow-stitched Leggings] And one from Kazzak: Legs : 71 41+34 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] The leg slots increase the total (pre-buffs) by 5. |
A few values seem to be different from the tooltip, i presume the tooltip is the correct value?
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
A few values seem to be different from the tooltip, i presume the tooltip is the correct value?
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
Cheers, added and updated.
A few values seem to be different from the tooltip, i presume the tooltip is the correct value? |
Legs : 71 : 41+30+4 [Bow-stitched Leggings] => 42 + 30
Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] => 37 + 30 + 4
And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15% = x1.25, not 1.1 * 1.15 = x1.265 but I might be wrong
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Originally Posted by Muarf
There are a few errors like these two:
Legs : 71 : 41+30+4 [Bow-stitched Leggings] => 42 + 30 Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] => 37 + 30 + 4 And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15% = x1.25, not 1.1 * 1.15 = x1.265 but I might be wrong |
I have no way to check stacking at this time as my hunter is BM specced.
It's quite possible i'm wrong though. Perhaps somebody could verify this?
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
Fixed the items, looks like i swapped them somehow.
I have no way to check stacking at this time as my hunter is BM specced. It's quite possible i'm wrong though. Perhaps somebody could verify this? |
I supposed it was confirmed
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Originally Posted by Thalestris
According to Cheeky's Spreadsheet, the correct formulae is (agi * 1.10 * 1.15)
I supposed it was confirmed |
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Originally Posted by ugla
Cheeky is correct. The percentage increases are multiplicative.
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thanks for the clarification
In a stream of biasness, I've never looked at Arena bows as all that great. Currently I am using the barrel bladed longrifle as BM and am looking into what I can obtain outside of raiding that brings allows me to switch back over to SV. Seeing as I don't pvp much/ever, how many weeks of 2 hour pvp/ 3-4 days a week would the S1 or S3 bow take? And how much of an improvement would the S1 or S3 bow be over my current?
Also, why don't pvp bows/guns ever have agi?
Also, why don't pvp bows/guns ever have agi?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Lumphoof
/castsequence reset=5 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Is this a better macro then? I'm not sure if I should put an Auto Shot after the last Steady Shot. |
Pretty sure KC will delay the shots, its even has too low DPM to be used as MM / Survival. I only use it with rapid fire+trinket and BM macro in encounters where i can afford the mana wasting.
Last edited by Gruknok : 11/28/07 at 5:18 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
QFT. The point of the 4/5 iAS build is to time your 1:1.5 SS/AS macro so that its perfect down to a few milliseconds without using multishot. If you are going to use multishot anyway then you have 8 seconds or so between arcaneshots so a reduced cooldown is not necessary. That means you never need to change your macro for CC fights to avoid breaking sheep and you have better mana efficiency for single target dps. Also I'd say that the macro given in post 597 would be better if it started with steadyshot, generally it gives a better tighter rotation. To be honest you're better just not using multishot and sticking to the 5 shot 1:1.5 macro.
I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this I can't think why anyone would do it any other way. |
Last edited by Gruknok : 11/29/07 at 5:03 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
I've edited post #17 in this thread to make a list of available gear.
http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html Seemed a better idea than posting a new reply, and not being able to find it again 4 weeks later. Enjoy. |
[Illidari Cloak] of Agility - 33
[Lurker's Belt] of Agility - 55
[Arcane Loop] of Agility - 33
Together they give 6 more agi from gear than the current max value.
EDIT: And [Umbral Shiv] for 32=12+10+10, 4 more than the Blade of Infamy in offhand. [Rage], at 30=20+10 is of note, but not a new maximum.
Last edited by Tsook : 11/28/07 at 9:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Pretty sure KC will delay the shots, its even has too low DPM to be used as MM / Survival. I only use it with rapid fire+trinket and BM macro in encounters where i can afford the mana wasting.
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otherwise with auto steady kc auto there is no delay
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Tsook
Nice list. You're missing a few max agi items, though. They're not really relevant for dps purposes, and relatively difficult to get, but I believe if you're going to take things to extremes, you should go all the way. >.>
[Illidari Cloak] of Agility - 33 [Lurker's Belt] of Agility - 55 [Arcane Loop] of Agility - 33 Together they give 6 more agi from gear than the current max value. EDIT: And [Umbral Shiv] for 32=12+10+10, 4 more than the Blade of Infamy in offhand. [Rage], at 30=20+10 is of note, but not a new maximum. |
[Ravager's Bands] of Agility
[Glider's Sabatons] of Agility
And several blue items that could be added more for the sake of completion than actual max agility listing.
The illidari cloak is only lvl 66, so if there is a lvl 70 version it would give more agility.
Same goes for the arcane loop.
Edit : Added a number of such random suffix items. Haven't been able to find the exact values for all of them however.
Also added : http://www.wowwiki.com/Sayge%27s_Fortunes
For another 10% buff, though this is only possible during a short time each month.
I presume this buff stacks in the same manner as the talent and Blessing of Kings?
Cleaned up the buff section, and added some zone and other buffs. ~1700 max agility now.
Last edited by Zurgat : 11/29/07 at 5:00 AM.
If you wanted to see the highest agility possible, wouldn't you consider double mongoose on weapon instead of 20+20. I know that its not a thing you use since its melee, and its totally useless in raid but for a highest agility, those are 200 more agility than 20+20 enchant.
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Originally Posted by minoshei
If you wanted to see the highest agility possible, wouldn't you consider double mongoose on weapon instead of 20+20. I know that its not a thing you use since its melee, and its totally useless in raid but for a highest agility, those are 200 more agility than 20+20 enchant.
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So I imagine mongoose enchants aren't included very purposefully.
that is why i stated as only if you wanted to see the highest agility
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by minoshei
If you wanted to see the highest agility possible, wouldn't you consider double mongoose on weapon instead of 20+20. I know that its not a thing you use since its melee, and its totally useless in raid but for a highest agility, those are 200 more agility than 20+20 enchant.
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The main intention to the list is to give you a list which can help you provide as high an agility bonus as possible in order to apply a reliable debuff.
Having to run into melee, wait until 2x mongoose is active, then running out is pretty pointless.
It's a nice idea to get an extra which could give you an extra ~300 agility in total, and i'd absolutely love to see somebody make a screenshot of them having 2000 agility on their paperdoll. Not to mention the huge crit chance they'd then have.
I don't think their personal DPS would actually suffer all that much with good gear.
2000 agi = 2000 AP and over 50% crit.
Plus an extra 500 AP due to the debuff, and 400 AP when hunter's mark is active.
You'd lack immense amounts of stamina and int though, so you would be pretty squishy and useless in raids.
Still, would be interesting to see it actually done at least once.
Last edited by Zurgat : 11/29/07 at 7:19 AM.
You might consider removing most of the "X item of agility" items (basically all of the green and blue ones) if you're aiming this at raiding purposes. The blow to your personal DPS from wearing items that have only agility doesn't outweigh the gain to raid DPS from a slightly stronger EW. There are dungeon blues that are better for raiding than any green or blue "of Agility" item.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
You might consider removing most of the "X item of agility" items (basically all of the green and blue ones) if you're aiming this at raiding purposes. The blow to your personal DPS from wearing items that have only agility doesn't outweigh the gain to raid DPS from a slightly stronger EW. There are dungeon blues that are better for raiding than any green or blue "of Agility" item.
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Like Zurgat stated, if you used the highest agility items in every slot you'd be squishy and not worth a whole lot to a raid. If you have a couple pieces of gear lingering with no agility from your filthy BM days, though, this list will help you find a placeholder while you wait for a raid drop.
There may be some minor exceptions, but it seems to me they will be incredibly rare. It's okay to wear a piece without Agility on it so long as the other stats make up for it, and there are dungeon blues and 5-man quest rewards that exceed the BoE's - in your case [Slayer's Mark of the Redemption], [Ravenclaw Band], and others.
I'm not saying there is universally no situation where "of Agility" items can be used for a net positive, I'm suggesting those situations will be so rare that adding them just clutters the list. If you have items "of Agility", you may as well add items "of the Bandit", because they're nearly as good.
I'm not saying there is universally no situation where "of Agility" items can be used for a net positive, I'm suggesting those situations will be so rare that adding them just clutters the list. If you have items "of Agility", you may as well add items "of the Bandit", because they're nearly as good.
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Originally Posted by Muarf
With a 3.00 speed bow (bristleblitz), I noticed that if I put a KC just after a steady/arcane it delays the next auto by ~500ms. it's maybe more after a steady/multi since multi shot has a small hidden cast time
otherwise with auto steady kc auto there is no delay |
Ofc there is no delay in a 1:1 rotation, but there is delay in the auto->steady->KC part of 1:1.5 rotation because the steady is pushed due to GCD.
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Originally Posted by ugla
Those items are still useful to raiders, I think. I, for instance, have had awful luck with rings. Currently in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, the only instances my guild does with any sort of regularity, there is exactly 1 ring that drops that has a high amount of agility. It has dropped twice, and I let it go because both were within our first few kills of Shade of Akama. It now hasn't dropped in about 3 months and I'm kicking myself. I'm also starting to eye up of agility greens in the auction house to use during raids until I actually get another decent ring.
Like Zurgat stated, if you used the highest agility items in every slot you'd be squishy and not worth a whole lot to a raid. If you have a couple pieces of gear lingering with no agility from your filthy BM days, though, this list will help you find a placeholder while you wait for a raid drop. |
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Are you out of your mind? Seriously. Why would you use green agi items in t6 content?
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Hey all, I have a quick pet question with regards to SV spec. I notice many people (myself included) have chosen 2/2 GftT. Looking at my and others' pets miss %, I am questioning wether this is the best choice for those points. On BT and Hyjal bosses, my pet WS has about a 30% miss rate. Looking at the other hunters in guild, I see about the same situation. What do yall think?
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Originally Posted by binky
Hey all, I have a quick pet question with regards to SV spec. I notice many people (myself included) have chosen 2/2 GftT. Looking at my and others' pets miss %, I am questioning wether this is the best choice for those points. On BT and Hyjal bosses, my pet WS has about a 30% miss rate. Looking at the other hunters in guild, I see about the same situation. What do yall think?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by binky
Hey all, I have a quick pet question with regards to SV spec. I notice many people (myself included) have chosen 2/2 GftT. Looking at my and others' pets miss %, I am questioning wether this is the best choice for those points. On BT and Hyjal bosses, my pet WS has about a 30% miss rate. Looking at the other hunters in guild, I see about the same situation. What do yall think?
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Some will crit, which means more Frenzy and Ferocious Inspiration up-time.
Last edited by Cheeky : 11/30/07 at 6:04 PM. Reason: Added note about crit
If you're Survival spec'ced like the poster is saying, you won't have Frenzy or Ferocious Inspiration.
However, GFTT is probably the best choice of talents regardless, unless you are already spec'cing 5/5 Imp. Mark, in which case efficiency could be argued for.
However, GFTT is probably the best choice of talents regardless, unless you are already spec'cing 5/5 Imp. Mark, in which case efficiency could be argued for.
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Originally Posted by binky
Hey all, I have a quick pet question with regards to SV spec. I notice many people (myself included) have chosen 2/2 GftT. Looking at my and others' pets miss %, I am questioning wether this is the best choice for those points. On BT and Hyjal bosses, my pet WS has about a 30% miss rate. Looking at the other hunters in guild, I see about the same situation. What do yall think?
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Originally Posted by binky
Hey all, I have a quick pet question with regards to SV spec. I notice many people (myself included) have chosen 2/2 GftT. Looking at my and others' pets miss %, I am questioning wether this is the best choice for those points. On BT and Hyjal bosses, my pet WS has about a 30% miss rate. Looking at the other hunters in guild, I see about the same situation. What do yall think?
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Two WWS for my Windserpent at Winterchill:
Mac - WWS
Mac - WWS
Seems to average about 15% miss. Yeah, it's not great, but GFFT is fuelling most of that Lightning breath DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by kultheel
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As lightning breath is considered a spell, i'd expect it to have ~17% miss rate unless a boss is partially immune to nature spells.
As described here http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit
I'm not sure if the "Animal Handler" talent has any effect on it.
Your WWS also shows nicely : http://wowwebstats.com/lgpx5wsromzoy?s=548-789&c=pet
Ravager doing the most dps, Cat next, and lastly the windserpent.
Unless there were some special events during that fight?
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/03/07 at 10:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lumphoof
/castsequence reset=5 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Is this a better macro then? I'm not sure if I should put an Auto Shot after the last Steady Shot. |
The macro I'm using now :
/castsequence reset=2.48 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
Subtle difference moving the Arcane shot to a cast random
My 2.48 is the speed of my autoshot (have a little bit of haste gear) - your may be a little different
To be perfectly honest it works pretty much exactly the same way as your 5 second reset ... but it's a bit more elegant (to my way of looking at it)
The only other thing I've got to enable is a macro for "under the influence of rapid fire" now that I'm actually planning on using it frequently
Same thing as above but with a 2.xy second reset time.
with all *that* said ... I'm also thinking of going back to manual (as someone else in this thread has mentioned) going from BM to Surv it feels so *slow* Like I've got hours between shots ... no need for the milisecond level precision of a BM hunter macro.
Note that if you're not running with a Windserpent, you're obviously going to delete the last line ... but turning LB off autocast and adding it to your macro will help with that pathing issue where the pet flies out to shoot LB
Hey everyone!
I am still trying to figure out what the heck I am doing wrong, or what needs changing. When I browse through other WWS reports I get really frustrated because I can't seem to get up to where I should be DPS-wise.
I am Survival Spec'd still. I use a macro to handle my shot rotations (my latency hops all over the place) - Going for Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, Auto, Repeat - Use a windserpent, with lightning breath tucked into the macro, and use kill command when it is available.
I run with the highest Agi Pot, and use warpburgers or grilled mudfish. My blessing priorities are Kings, Might, Wisdom for trash, - Kings, Wisdom, Might for bosses. We only ran with 2 paladins last night, so I had Kings and Wisdom for boss fights. We only run with 1 shadow priest, and that is given to the mages. Last night, my group was: 3 Warlocks, Holy Paladin and myself.
I need to fish up a few more upgrades. I only just bought the Season 1 Gladiator hat last night after Vashj failed (again) to drop T5. I had been using the beast lord helm (T4 never dropped for me.) I was looking to find a meta for the helm, but I don't have any source for the agi one, nor do I have the right gems socketed elsewhere for the meta to work.
Here is the WWS report: Loading...
I'd love some advice, even if it's just looking at where I am gear wise, and how I am grouped and being told 'you can't reach 1k dps with that setup'. Thing is, the officers really want everyone pushing 1k, and so I am starting to get really paranoid.
Thanks.
Also, as I don't get a feral druid in my group ever, or a shaman, (and usually not an spriest) - would it benefit me more to spec out of RWS and back to TotH for mana help? And should I go back to using a cat or ravager since I don't crit enough to get a solid show on lightning breath?
I am still trying to figure out what the heck I am doing wrong, or what needs changing. When I browse through other WWS reports I get really frustrated because I can't seem to get up to where I should be DPS-wise.
I am Survival Spec'd still. I use a macro to handle my shot rotations (my latency hops all over the place) - Going for Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, Auto, Repeat - Use a windserpent, with lightning breath tucked into the macro, and use kill command when it is available.
I run with the highest Agi Pot, and use warpburgers or grilled mudfish. My blessing priorities are Kings, Might, Wisdom for trash, - Kings, Wisdom, Might for bosses. We only ran with 2 paladins last night, so I had Kings and Wisdom for boss fights. We only run with 1 shadow priest, and that is given to the mages. Last night, my group was: 3 Warlocks, Holy Paladin and myself.
I need to fish up a few more upgrades. I only just bought the Season 1 Gladiator hat last night after Vashj failed (again) to drop T5. I had been using the beast lord helm (T4 never dropped for me.) I was looking to find a meta for the helm, but I don't have any source for the agi one, nor do I have the right gems socketed elsewhere for the meta to work.
Here is the WWS report: Loading...
I'd love some advice, even if it's just looking at where I am gear wise, and how I am grouped and being told 'you can't reach 1k dps with that setup'. Thing is, the officers really want everyone pushing 1k, and so I am starting to get really paranoid.
Thanks.
Also, as I don't get a feral druid in my group ever, or a shaman, (and usually not an spriest) - would it benefit me more to spec out of RWS and back to TotH for mana help? And should I go back to using a cat or ravager since I don't crit enough to get a solid show on lightning breath?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
Your WWS also shows nicely : Pets - WWS
Ravager doing the most dps, Cat next, and lastly the windserpent. Unless there were some special events during that fight? |
Edit: lilwolfe:
You might want to remove Kill Command from your macros. While it doesn't consume a GCD, it will push back your Auto Shot cast-time, so it introduces a lot of clipping into a 1:1.5 rotation. I can't really speak to your spec, because I've only tried 5/20/36 and 0/20/41, but your gear and mine are pretty similar. The chief difference, and probably the salient DPS indicator, is I wear a Dragonspine Trophy. There's not a whole lot you can do about not having a DST, though.
Last edited by Tibor : 12/03/07 at 12:26 PM.
I'm going to be doing some wolf DPS comparisons over the next month of raiding to see how ferocious howl stacks up. If anyone has done this in the past I'd love to see your findings. If that fails I think I'm gonna go tame a wind serpent.
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Originally Posted by Alumatine
I'm going to be doing some wolf DPS comparisons over the next month of raiding to see how ferocious howl stacks up. If anyone has done this in the past I'd love to see your findings. If that fails I think I'm gonna go tame a wind serpent.
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Each Furious Howl is: 51 extra damage, each 10 seconds, per target.
So if everyone can stand 15 yards from all of the wolves: 5.1 dps x 10 = 51 dps.
Wolves are still less than ideal because they do not have an instant focus dump only limited by GCD (claw/gore/screech); they only have bite on a 10 sec cooldown. Also, wolves have no +damage modification, further limiting the DPS of the pet itself when compared to other DPS pets (ravager, cat, wind serpent). It would result in a loss in overall DPS because of these factors, just for the sake of a buff gimmick that has a very tight window of usable circumstance.
Wolf is just for +style points if you're using one of those fancy Dustwallow ghost wolves.
Wolf is just for +style points if you're using one of those fancy Dustwallow ghost wolves.
Ok so wolves are out heh, saves me time. Thank ye muchly. Now to find a cool wind serpent or go back to my ravager.
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
As lightning breath is considered a spell, i'd expect it to have ~17% miss rate unless a boss is partially immune to nature spells.
As described here Spell hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft I'm not sure if the "Animal Handler" talent has any effect on it. Your WWS also shows nicely : Pets - WWS Ravager doing the most dps, Cat next, and lastly the windserpent. Unless there were some special events during that fight? |
Heh. Both cat and ravager where BM pets so you cant compare it to suvival wind serpent any way.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Tibor
Edit: lilwolfe:
You might want to remove Kill Command from your macros. While it doesn't consume a GCD, it will push back your Auto Shot cast-time, so it introduces a lot of clipping into a 1:1.5 rotation. I can't really speak to your spec, because I've only tried 5/20/36 and 0/20/41, but your gear and mine are pretty similar. The chief difference, and probably the salient DPS indicator, is I wear a Dragonspine Trophy. There's not a whole lot you can do about not having a DST, though. |
Also for those that didnt try it, use BM macro when rapid fire popped, remove kill command line on mana intence fights.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/03/07 at 5:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by lythrdskynrd
Having just broken 600 agility unbuffed this week I'm newly surv (yay!)
The macro I'm using now : /castsequence reset=2.48 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath Subtle difference moving the Arcane shot to a cast random My 2.48 is the speed of my autoshot (have a little bit of haste gear) - your may be a little different To be perfectly honest it works pretty much exactly the same way as your 5 second reset ... but it's a bit more elegant (to my way of looking at it) The only other thing I've got to enable is a macro for "under the influence of rapid fire" now that I'm actually planning on using it frequently Same thing as above but with a 2.xy second reset time. with all *that* said ... I'm also thinking of going back to manual (as someone else in this thread has mentioned) going from BM to Surv it feels so *slow* Like I've got hours between shots ... no need for the milisecond level precision of a BM hunter macro. Note that if you're not running with a Windserpent, you're obviously going to delete the last line ... but turning LB off autocast and adding it to your macro will help with that pathing issue where the pet flies out to shoot LB |
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot,Steady Shot,Multi-shot(rank 1),auto shot,steady shot,auto shot,steady shot,arcane shot,auto shot,steady shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:show()
Adjust multi rank to your needs. Switching it to rank 1 from rank 6 gives me ~25% efficiency at a cost of 30-40 dps or less.
2.2k ap, ~840 agi, ~34,5% crit chance, 88 hit rating on pve survival gear by the way.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot,Steady Shot,Multi-shot(rank 1),auto shot,steady shot,auto shot,steady shot,arcane shot,auto shot,steady shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:show() Adjust multi rank to your needs. Switching it to rank 1 from rank 6 gives me ~25% efficiency at a cost of 30-40 dps or less. 2.2k ap, ~840 agi, ~34,5% crit chance, 88 hit rating on pve survival gear by the way. |
Maybe on specific fights like Kazrogal downranking would be useful but shadow priests, totems and TotH make it easy.
and:
2191 ap, 852 agi, 39.73% crit chance, 102 hit rating on pve survival gear by the way
Been raiding with Survival for some time now, and last week i was able to upgrade my comp to a relative powerhouse 4x better then what i previously have. Needless to say, the difference from 7 to 60 FPS in a raid as a hunter is simply astounding. I was able to keep up and get into Top 5 , but now i am regulalrly top 3.
I use a rotation of:
Steady, Arcane, Auto
Steady, Multy, Auto
And i find mana to be an absolute problem. My stats are 2300 AP, 98 hit rating + 3% talent and 47% crit raidbuffed (57% when MT procs) and i could improve allot my gear, given i find the will to farm Curator again for the ring i passed long time ago. Mana returned per crit is something i don't even think to give up atm.
I simply switched to AOTV, because i dont usually get a shadowpriest. With AoTV and a melee (or resto, he switches specs like crazy) shammy who has the mercy to put down a m/5s totem, i am able to keep myself floating at 50% by chugging pots all the time.
I use a rotation of:
Steady, Arcane, Auto
Steady, Multy, Auto
And i find mana to be an absolute problem. My stats are 2300 AP, 98 hit rating + 3% talent and 47% crit raidbuffed (57% when MT procs) and i could improve allot my gear, given i find the will to farm Curator again for the ring i passed long time ago. Mana returned per crit is something i don't even think to give up atm.
I simply switched to AOTV, because i dont usually get a shadowpriest. With AoTV and a melee (or resto, he switches specs like crazy) shammy who has the mercy to put down a m/5s totem, i am able to keep myself floating at 50% by chugging pots all the time.
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Originally Posted by Brunhilda
Been raiding with Survival for some time now, and last week i was able to upgrade my comp to a relative powerhouse 4x better then what i previously have. Needless to say, the difference from 7 to 60 FPS in a raid as a hunter is simply astounding. I was able to keep up and get into Top 5 , but now i am regulalrly top 3.
I use a rotation of: Steady, Arcane, Auto Steady, Multy, Auto And i find mana to be an absolute problem. My stats are 2300 AP, 98 hit rating + 3% talent and 47% crit raidbuffed (57% when MT procs) and i could improve allot my gear, given i find the will to farm Curator again for the ring i passed long time ago. Mana returned per crit is something i don't even think to give up atm. I simply switched to AOTV, because i dont usually get a shadowpriest. With AoTV and a melee (or resto, he switches specs like crazy) shammy who has the mercy to put down a m/5s totem, i am able to keep myself floating at 50% by chugging pots all the time. |
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Originally Posted by Laif
How far along are you in progression? [Ring of Lethality] drops off Hydross and [Ring of Deceitful Intent] drops off Shade of Akama. Both slightly edge out [Garona's Signet Ring]. If you're having mana problems, try dual-wielding ([Emerald Ripper], [Netherbane], [Blade of Infamy]) for 2x mana oils and don't forget Elixir of Major Mageblood, which is a guardian elixir and can be used with Elixir of Major Agility (since that is preferable to a flask anyway as SV spec).
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Indeed, i've been using the elixir, not the flask and i'm starting to build up on oil/mageblood mats, since they're no longer a luxury (as they where when i was BM), but a necesity.
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Originally Posted by Escort
I don't know where you intend to put the points (even if it's not very good, which I'm not ready to concede). The 1:1.5 ratio does not need imp arcane shot, so you're gonna drop points in Imp Mark?
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So, I've been BM for awhile, topping meters and all that, but I miss SV grossly. I want to switch back now but we have a problem. My gun speed is 2.6. Adding on the 15% quiver haste that's like ...*doing it in his head* 2.21 w/o RF in SV. I assume that is how long shots will take. Steady takes 1.5, so that leaves me .71 seconds to toss in an Arcane. Is it worth it to do so if I switch back to SV, or is even considering it with my current gun a bag of fail and perhaps AIDS?
Man, the composition of that paragraph blows. I feel like a spammer, but the two questions are different and properly placed, so...
Man, the composition of that paragraph blows. I feel like a spammer, but the two questions are different and properly placed, so...
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Originally Posted by Muarf
I never needed to use a lower rank of Multi-Shot, since I often raid with a shadowpriest. And even without SP, due to thrill of the hunt (yesterday when I got a feral in my group I was somewhere around 53% crit), mana is never a problem that a mana pot can't solve ([Fel Mana Potion] <3)
Maybe on specific fights like Kazrogal downranking would be useful but shadow priests, totems and TotH make it easy. and: 2191 ap, 852 agi, 39.73% crit chance, 102 hit rating on pve survival gear by the way |
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Another BM, ench shamy or feral druid in that group would be so much better than the spriest which has its utility simply wasted in hunter group. Id say that if a spriest has no caster group to go, he shouldnt be in the raid at all.
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Wow. There is no synergie in the game that ups my damage more than a shadow priest. The only thing that comes remotely close is a resto shaman dropping agi/str/mana spring/tide. If you're struggling to go OOM as a hunter you're probably BM and you're probably not using KC, arcane shot, and multi-shot much or at all. You should be using them every time the CD is up as applicable. Even with a shadow priest I tend to chain chug mana pots if it's a fight that allows me to be stationary and DPS. If you're still wearing the crafted LW gear then it has a lot of MP5 on it and once you grow out of it you'll begin to appreciate any chance you get to be grouped with a SPriest.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
So, I've been BM for awhile, topping meters and all that, but I miss SV grossly. I want to switch back now but we have a problem. My gun speed is 2.6. Adding on the 15% quiver haste that's like ...*doing it in his head* 2.21 w/o RF in SV. I assume that is how long shots will take. Steady takes 1.5, so that leaves me .71 seconds to toss in an Arcane.
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Auto Shot: 2.6 / 1.15 = 2.26
Steady Shot: 1.5 / 1.15 = 1.30
Emptiness: 2.26 - 1.30 = 0.96 (note that 0.2 seconds of this is global cooldown)
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
i just want to delete my post...
Last edited by Wunlastri : 12/04/07 at 9:56 PM. Reason: Forgot to...save DPS meters. But I was number Wun...because dps nub'd annnd got DND'd
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
Wow. There is no synergie in the game that ups my damage more than a shadow priest. The only thing that comes remotely close is a resto shaman dropping agi/str/mana spring/tide. If you're struggling to go OOM as a hunter you're probably BM and you're probably not using KC, arcane shot, and multi-shot much or at all. You should be using them every time the CD is up as applicable. Even with a shadow priest I tend to chain chug mana pots if it's a fight that allows me to be stationary and DPS. If you're still wearing the crafted LW gear then it has a lot of MP5 on it and once you grow out of it you'll begin to appreciate any chance you get to be grouped with a SPriest.
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What mana potions do you use every CD? Also use major agi+major mageblood, mana oils if you realy have mana problems? Whos else usualy is in your group? 1:1 rotation with arcane / multi for BM is a very minor dps increase vs 1:1 steady rotation, it even becomes a downgrade at high attack power. Another BM in the same group will easily cover the dps loss if you switch to 1:1 steady rotation in addition hell buff other group members that dont benefit from spriest that much It simply isnt worth puting spriest in a physical dps group, especialy if you have rogues / warr in it. Not even mentioning mages and locks that lose mana and hp regeneration if theres no spriest left for them. Group synergy is for maximising raid dps not for maximising some BM hunters dps who cant manage his mana.
Also theres a loss of focus on enviroment when using manual 1:1 multi, arcane, steady rotation, i believe it cant be macroed because of random cooldowns on arcane and multi.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/05/07 at 2:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
What mana potions do you use every CD? Also use major agi+major mageblood, mana oils if you realy have mana problems? Whos else usualy is in your group? 1:1 rotation with arcane / multi for BM is a very minor dps increase vs 1:1 steady rotation, it even becomes a downgrade at high attack power. Another BM in the same group will easily cover the dps loss if you switch to 1:1 steady rotation in addition hell buff other group members that dont benefit from spriest that much It simply isnt worth puting spriest in a physical dps group, especialy if you have rogues / warr in it. Not even mentioning mages and locks that lose mana and hp regeneration if theres no spriest left for them. Group synergy is for maximising raid dps not for maximising some BM hunters dps who cant manage his mana.
Also theres a loss of focus on enviroment when using manual 1:1 multi, arcane, steady rotation, i believe it cant be macroed because of random cooldowns on arcane and multi. |
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Originally Posted by ugla
After 2.3, one of our paladins who had been getting the gear for it switched to ret. The threat reduction made them a viable source of DPS, and so suddenly we have 2-3 Paladin judgements up on raid bosses entire fights. Judgement of Wisdom has become a huge source of mana for me in raids, and in fights like Illidari Council where I used to have mana problems because they're so lengthy, I now use Aspect of the Hawk for a much bigger chunk of the fight. Getting 3% crit and chance to restore health and/or mana on every ranged attack has almost alone been worth bringing a retribution paladin to a raid.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Holy pala can do JoW too. Its the uptime of the judgement that makes sence probably, retribution pala refreshes the judgements i believe. Dont know how exatcly is good ret pala to the group / raid so i didnt mention it. 3% crit would still be better that spriest id say. Whats the main type of damage done by the retriadin?
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Crusader Strike
8% of Base Mana 5 yd range
Instant cast 6 sec cooldown
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that causes weapon damage plus 40% of your Holy spell damage and refreshes all Judgements on the target.
That's basically on a cooldown equivalent to arcane shot... You can have all the holy paladins just put a judgement up at the start of combat, and a single paladin will keep them all up. Otherwise, a paladin's judgements can only be refreshed by his own melee attacks, if i remember right.
The damage a paladin does is, as the tooltip hints, is mostly holy and physical damage.
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Originally Posted by Enova
I'm straying off topic a bit, but here's the tooltip for Crusader Strike (41 point retri talent):
Crusader Strike 8% of Base Mana 5 yd range Instant cast 6 sec cooldown Requires Melee Weapon An instant strike that causes weapon damage plus 40% of your Holy spell damage and refreshes all Judgements on the target. That's basically on a cooldown equivalent to arcane shot... You can have all the holy paladins just put a judgement up at the start of combat, and a single paladin will keep them all up. Otherwise, a paladin's judgements can only be refreshed by his own melee attacks, if i remember right. The damage a paladin does is, as the tooltip hints, is mostly holy and physical damage. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Huh? 8% base mana cost?
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But yes, the whole spiel about a retribution paladin is to point out how valuable it is to keep 3 judgements up on a boss in a single target fight indefinitely.
Last edited by ugla : 12/07/07 at 5:48 PM.
1st time post.
Looking over the spreadsheet and my available trinkets, it seems that by removing my [Dragonspine Trophy] and replacing it will benefit me. Accoring to raw data, the best combo I have is:
[Berserker's Call]
[Bloodlust Brooch]
If I replace the brooch with [Hourglass of the Unraveller] it shows me a 2DPS loss. Should I use the hourglass and hope for more procs or rely on the constant of the brooch?
I think this would help maximize my personal DPS while not affecting EW at all. Am I missing something?
Looking over the spreadsheet and my available trinkets, it seems that by removing my [Dragonspine Trophy] and replacing it will benefit me. Accoring to raw data, the best combo I have is:
[Berserker's Call]
[Bloodlust Brooch]
If I replace the brooch with [Hourglass of the Unraveller] it shows me a 2DPS loss. Should I use the hourglass and hope for more procs or rely on the constant of the brooch?
I think this would help maximize my personal DPS while not affecting EW at all. Am I missing something?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Numitor
1st time post.
Looking over the spreadsheet and my available trinkets, it seems that by removing my [Dragonspine Trophy] and replacing it will benefit me. Accoring to raw data, the best combo I have is: [Berserker's Call] [Bloodlust Brooch] If I replace the brooch with [Hourglass of the Unraveller] it shows me a 2DPS loss. Should I use the hourglass and hope for more procs or rely on the constant of the brooch? I think this would help maximize my personal DPS while not affecting EW at all. Am I missing something? |
You might lose the theoretical on use trinket dps if its ready on an unlucky moment when you need to do something else. Or you can get unlucky with the hourglass / tsunami proccs. Personaly im using bloodlust brooch (+hourglass, cant wait till i can get tsunami ) every 3 minutes in conjunction with berserking and rapid fire so the 2 on use trinket coolups most likely will interfere. In this case the trinket dps loss can be huge. For BM it is a good combo but it requires constant tracking of coolups. Else in longer fights the same coolup interfering will accur and again you lose theoretical trinket dps. Or you can screw up the coolups in fights where major raid nuking is needed and you need to keep the trinket unused for few tenths of seconds.
In my oppinion the best combos are:
Berserkers call + Madness of the Betrayer (which should be passed to melee to be honest)
Berserkers call + Tsunami
Bloodlust Brooch + Madness / Tsunami
Tsunami + Madness
Berserkers call + Hourglass
Bloodlust Brooch + Hourglass
Tsunami + Hourglass
All of these beeing in range of about 65-100 theoretical dps bonus with the gear im aiming for. And its going from heroic 5 mans drop to the high end game drop. So having the trinket i want is the last thing i worry about. Also the best trinkets will most likely be used on guildies main specces and doubt will be disenchanted before WotLK.
The worst thing is that both of the hunter class trinkets are a joke for survival. Exalted t6 faction item theoreticaly worse than NORMAL dificulty 5 mans drop? ...
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/11/07 at 5:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
What mana potions do you use every CD? Also use major agi+major mageblood, mana oils if you realy have mana problems? Whos else usualy is in your group? 1:1 rotation with arcane / multi for BM is a very minor dps increase vs 1:1 steady rotation, it even becomes a downgrade at high attack power. Another BM in the same group will easily cover the dps loss if you switch to 1:1 steady rotation in addition hell buff other group members that dont benefit from spriest that much It simply isnt worth puting spriest in a physical dps group, especialy if you have rogues / warr in it. Not even mentioning mages and locks that lose mana and hp regeneration if theres no spriest left for them. Group synergy is for maximising raid dps not for maximising some BM hunters dps who cant manage his mana.
Also theres a loss of focus on enviroment when using manual 1:1 multi, arcane, steady rotation, i believe it cant be macroed because of random cooldowns on arcane and multi. |
With that said, I can think of exactly one fight in all of TBC raiding which allows for this scenario. Terron Gorefiend, and only if you're lucky. Every other will see you moving on a fairly regular basis, some more than others. You might choose to stand still for VR and eat the orbs while you steady/auto but most of the fights don't have an option to stand still and eat the damage. The requirement for mobility and DPS in short spurts vastly increases the value of the instant arcane shot and the .5s cast multi shot. There are no great ways to measure this other than a WWS of a boss like Vashj or Kael where you move often. Get two WWS of the different shot rotations and you will notice a jump in DPS assuming you can manage the more complex 1:1 priority rotation. If you can't handle it, then stick to your 1:1 steady/auto.
I use super mana oil and super mana potions every 2 minutes. I also use drums of battle every 2 minutes. If I don't have a shadow priest I go OOM and have to resort to the lesser DPS rotation of steady/auto and in a desperate situation where my spriest is dead I will have to switch to viper. Using agi/mageblood elixirs would drop my DPS even more to 1568. Another BM hunter in the group would change nothing. He gives 3% dps to all group members no matter what group he is in, as long as it's a 5 DPS group and as long as his pet stays alive and on target. Few things keep a pet alive better than a shadow priest.
My groups usually have one of two configurations.
Possiblity one:
Mage
Warlock
Shadow Priest
Ele Shaman
BM Hunter
Generally group 4 and 5 will be mirror images of this group.
Possibility two doesn't change much:
Shadow Priest
Mage/Warlock
Mage/Warlock
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
The group with the ele shaman, while not a big boost to hunter DPS, is the higher DPS group.
Why would you put a hunter in a physical DPS group?
Our melee group is normally full of a 5 melee DPS and has no room for a hunter. If I were in this group I would see a 5% crit bonus but I would benefit from the WF, Str totem, Battle Shout less than any other melee DPS and I would at times be out of range for these benefits as well. As you said, group synergy is for maximizing raid DPS. Sticking a mana user with other mana users and boosting their damage by 3% while returning mana to that person to boost his dps in return is great use of group synergy. Hunters don't get a lot from most groups unless it's a group built specificly for hunters. Considering the ideal group for a hunter includes a healer (resto shaman) I'd say synergies are at their peak in groups similar to mine.
At the end of a 5 minute fight, I will be OOM. At the end of a 20 minute fight, I will be OOM. Nowhere in between, no matter my group makeup, will I be OOM unless something drastic changes mid fight. I manage my mana quite well, and if you are unable to dump your mana in exchange for extra DPS, then you are doing something wrong. This is especially true if you are in a group without a shadow priest.
Slightly of topic, but along the same lines.
We have a survival hunter in our guild that insists that he is better of using Elixir of Major Agility over Flask of Relentless Assault.
The following is his logic::
Flask of relentless assault for survival = 120 AP and uses both the battle and guardian spot
Elixir of Major agility = 35 agility + 20 Crit for survival... mutiply the agility by 1.15 for lightning reflexes = 40.25 Agility + 20 crit
1 Agility = 1 AP
every 44 agility=22 crit = 1%crit
so 44 Agility = 44AP + 1%Crit.... or 44 AP + 44 AP.... thats 88,
so to simplify.... 1 Agility is really equal to 2 AP
40.25 agility = 80.5 AP and then you get an extra 20 crit on that which is roughly 40 or so extra AP
So......... that is 120.5 AP as opposed to the 120 from the flask...... AND i can still use a guardian Elixir... Elixir of Draenic Wisdom to increase my mana pool
Is his arguement correct.
We have a survival hunter in our guild that insists that he is better of using Elixir of Major Agility over Flask of Relentless Assault.
The following is his logic::
Flask of relentless assault for survival = 120 AP and uses both the battle and guardian spot
Elixir of Major agility = 35 agility + 20 Crit for survival... mutiply the agility by 1.15 for lightning reflexes = 40.25 Agility + 20 crit
1 Agility = 1 AP
every 44 agility=22 crit = 1%crit
so 44 Agility = 44AP + 1%Crit.... or 44 AP + 44 AP.... thats 88,
so to simplify.... 1 Agility is really equal to 2 AP
40.25 agility = 80.5 AP and then you get an extra 20 crit on that which is roughly 40 or so extra AP
So......... that is 120.5 AP as opposed to the 120 from the flask...... AND i can still use a guardian Elixir... Elixir of Draenic Wisdom to increase my mana pool
Is his arguement correct.
So long as he doesn't die lots, the elixirs are better than flasks. Fights not to use it on. Archimonde.
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Originally Posted by Adeathria
Slightly of topic, but along the same lines.
We have a survival hunter in our guild that insists that he is better of using Elixir of Major Agility over Flask of Relentless Assault. The following is his logic:: Flask of relentless assault for survival = 120 AP and uses both the battle and guardian spot Elixir of Major agility = 35 agility + 20 Crit for survival... mutiply the agility by 1.15 for lightning reflexes = 40.25 Agility + 20 crit 1 Agility = 1 AP every 44 agility=22 crit = 1%crit so 44 Agility = 44AP + 1%Crit.... or 44 AP + 44 AP.... thats 88, so to simplify.... 1 Agility is really equal to 2 AP 40.25 agility = 80.5 AP and then you get an extra 20 crit on that which is roughly 40 or so extra AP So......... that is 120.5 AP as opposed to the 120 from the flask...... AND i can still use a guardian Elixir... Elixir of Draenic Wisdom to increase my mana pool Is his arguement correct. |
Not exactly, major agility is quite a bit better as survival, 1 agility is better than 2 AP, even for personal dps, without even considering the increase in Expose Weakness. So, the elixir is better for personal dps and provides about 10 extra raid-wide AP. For some concrete numbers, using Cheeky's spreadsheet, my personal DPS without either is 1323, flask puts it at 1351, and elixir and 1360, again without considering EW benefits. So, survival hunters should always be using the elixir over a flask, they're pretty cheap so it's not a big deal even if you wipe alot (you can't use marks of the illidari though). Also, major mageblood is much better than draenic wisdom.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Doko
Not exactly, major agility is quite a bit better as survival, 1 agility is better than 2 AP, even for personal dps, without even considering the increase in Expose Weakness. So, the elixir is better for personal dps and provides about 10 extra raid-wide AP. For some concrete numbers, using Cheeky's spreadsheet, my personal DPS without either is 1323, flask puts it at 1351, and elixir and 1360, again without considering EW benefits. So, survival hunters should always be using the elixir over a flask, they're pretty cheap so it's not a big deal even if you wipe alot (you can't use marks of the illidari though). Also, major mageblood is much better than draenic wisdom.
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So major agility elixir becomes worth of 4 * 35 + 2 * 20 = 180 AP for raid contribution. And i use mageblood too. 30 int gives 495 mana. Major mageblood will give 1344 mana in a 7 mins fight. 960 mana in 5 mins fight.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/12/07 at 2:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
Fully raid buffed, using a 1:1 multi/arcane priority rotation and not moving or using any non DPS abilities (ie FD, traps, MD's pet heals/rezzes) for an entire boss fight I have the potential to do 1,603 DPS. That's assuming I don' go OOM. If I had bloodlust, totems, or a feral druid that potential would be higher. With a 1:1 auto/steady rotation my potential DPS is 1,586 DPS. In a perfect world there is a small difference which does in fact go away with higher AP and T5/6 4 piece bonuses.
With that said, I can think of exactly one fight in all of TBC raiding which allows for this scenario. Terron Gorefiend, and only if you're lucky. Every other will see you moving on a fairly regular basis, some more than others. You might choose to stand still for VR and eat the orbs while you steady/auto but most of the fights don't have an option to stand still and eat the damage. The requirement for mobility and DPS in short spurts vastly increases the value of the instant arcane shot and the .5s cast multi shot. There are no great ways to measure this other than a WWS of a boss like Vashj or Kael where you move often. Get two WWS of the different shot rotations and you will notice a jump in DPS assuming you can manage the more complex 1:1 priority rotation. If you can't handle it, then stick to your 1:1 steady/auto. I use super mana oil and super mana potions every 2 minutes. I also use drums of battle every 2 minutes. If I don't have a shadow priest I go OOM and have to resort to the lesser DPS rotation of steady/auto and in a desperate situation where my spriest is dead I will have to switch to viper. Using agi/mageblood elixirs would drop my DPS even more to 1568. Another BM hunter in the group would change nothing. He gives 3% dps to all group members no matter what group he is in, as long as it's a 5 DPS group and as long as his pet stays alive and on target. Few things keep a pet alive better than a shadow priest. My groups usually have one of two configurations. Possiblity one: Mage Warlock Shadow Priest Ele Shaman BM Hunter Generally group 4 and 5 will be mirror images of this group. Possibility two doesn't change much: Shadow Priest Mage/Warlock Mage/Warlock BM Hunter BM Hunter The group with the ele shaman, while not a big boost to hunter DPS, is the higher DPS group. Why would you put a hunter in a physical DPS group? Our melee group is normally full of a 5 melee DPS and has no room for a hunter. If I were in this group I would see a 5% crit bonus but I would benefit from the WF, Str totem, Battle Shout less than any other melee DPS and I would at times be out of range for these benefits as well. As you said, group synergy is for maximizing raid DPS. Sticking a mana user with other mana users and boosting their damage by 3% while returning mana to that person to boost his dps in return is great use of group synergy. Hunters don't get a lot from most groups unless it's a group built specificly for hunters. Considering the ideal group for a hunter includes a healer (resto shaman) I'd say synergies are at their peak in groups similar to mine. At the end of a 5 minute fight, I will be OOM. At the end of a 20 minute fight, I will be OOM. Nowhere in between, no matter my group makeup, will I be OOM unless something drastic changes mid fight. I manage my mana quite well, and if you are unable to dump your mana in exchange for extra DPS, then you are doing something wrong. This is especially true if you are in a group without a shadow priest. |
Wheres the survival hunter?
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
So long as he doesn't die lots, the elixirs are better than flasks. Fights not to use it on. Archimonde.
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@Adeathria: In all spreadsheets or calculations I've seen, Agility Elixir provides more DPS than a Flask of Relentless Assault to a survival hunter. Not to mention that it allows an Elixir of Major Mageblood to be had as well.
Thank you very much for all your replies. They were most helpful.
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
Fully raid buffed, using a 1:1 multi/arcane priority rotation and not moving or using any non DPS abilities (ie FD, traps, MD's pet heals/rezzes) for an entire boss fight I have the potential to do 1,603 DPS. That's assuming I don' go OOM. If I had bloodlust, totems, or a feral druid that potential would be higher. With a 1:1 auto/steady rotation my potential DPS is 1,586 DPS. In a perfect world there is a small difference which does in fact go away with higher AP and T5/6 4 piece bonuses.
With that said, I can think of exactly one fight in all of TBC raiding which allows for this scenario. Terron Gorefiend, and only if you're lucky. Every other will see you moving on a fairly regular basis, some more than others. You might choose to stand still for VR and eat the orbs while you steady/auto but most of the fights don't have an option to stand still and eat the damage. The requirement for mobility and DPS in short spurts vastly increases the value of the instant arcane shot and the .5s cast multi shot. There are no great ways to measure this other than a WWS of a boss like Vashj or Kael where you move often. Get two WWS of the different shot rotations and you will notice a jump in DPS assuming you can manage the more complex 1:1 priority rotation. If you can't handle it, then stick to your 1:1 steady/auto. I use super mana oil and super mana potions every 2 minutes. I also use drums of battle every 2 minutes. If I don't have a shadow priest I go OOM and have to resort to the lesser DPS rotation of steady/auto and in a desperate situation where my spriest is dead I will have to switch to viper. Using agi/mageblood elixirs would drop my DPS even more to 1568. Another BM hunter in the group would change nothing. He gives 3% dps to all group members no matter what group he is in, as long as it's a 5 DPS group and as long as his pet stays alive and on target. Few things keep a pet alive better than a shadow priest. My groups usually have one of two configurations. Possiblity one: Mage Warlock Shadow Priest Ele Shaman BM Hunter Generally group 4 and 5 will be mirror images of this group. Possibility two doesn't change much: Shadow Priest Mage/Warlock Mage/Warlock BM Hunter BM Hunter The group with the ele shaman, while not a big boost to hunter DPS, is the higher DPS group. Why would you put a hunter in a physical DPS group? Our melee group is normally full of a 5 melee DPS and has no room for a hunter. If I were in this group I would see a 5% crit bonus but I would benefit from the WF, Str totem, Battle Shout less than any other melee DPS and I would at times be out of range for these benefits as well. As you said, group synergy is for maximizing raid DPS. Sticking a mana user with other mana users and boosting their damage by 3% while returning mana to that person to boost his dps in return is great use of group synergy. Hunters don't get a lot from most groups unless it's a group built specificly for hunters. Considering the ideal group for a hunter includes a healer (resto shaman) I'd say synergies are at their peak in groups similar to mine. At the end of a 5 minute fight, I will be OOM. At the end of a 20 minute fight, I will be OOM. Nowhere in between, no matter my group makeup, will I be OOM unless something drastic changes mid fight. I manage my mana quite well, and if you are unable to dump your mana in exchange for extra DPS, then you are doing something wrong. This is especially true if you are in a group without a shadow priest. |
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Wheres the survival hunter?
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Originally Posted by LanceLink
The statement about Archimonde is misleading. We are wiping 20 times a night on Archimonde and I manage to run away and FD in safety on at least half of those attempts..
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I suppose this can be largely attributed to where my group is positioned, which is near Nordrassil. Thus, once things go upside down (and you know this becomes very clear very quickly) I just run to the tower behind Nordrassil which is out of range of soul charges. 1 or 2 would hit me but I usually don't die and I've gained enough distance from Archimonde to be safe from other soul charges and also safe from fear. Guesstimate - it works 50% of the time for me. And I don't do it to save on consumables, it's just that the incessant corpse-running on Archimonde really irritates me, and I'd rather have a real break between the wipes.
So I tried ROS as SV and it was horrid. Like steadying is nigh impossible, but it feels weak just weaving in specials and my feelings are supported as looking at my meter. Anything that can be done as non BM to make it not suck so?
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Originally Posted by LanceLink
I suppose this can be largely attributed to where my group is positioned, which is near Nordrassil. Thus, once things go upside down (and you know this becomes very clear very quickly) I just run to the tower behind Nordrassil which is out of range of soul charges. 1 or 2 would hit me but I usually don't die and I've gained enough distance from Archimonde to be safe from other soul charges and also safe from fear. Guesstimate - it works 50% of the time for me. And I don't do it to save on consumables, it's just that the incessant corpse-running on Archimonde really irritates me, and I'd rather have a real break between the wipes.
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I use the elixirs instead of the flask as well. A 20 stack of elixirs is about 35-40 gold on my server, which is about the same price as a flask. So, it is usually cheaper to go with elixirs, even for Archimonde. Our first full night of attempts, we got about 40 attempts in about 4 hours (we killed him on our 5th attempt on the second night and I got my bow! yeah!), so that is about equivalent to 2 flasks. As someone else said, ranged DPSers really don't do much DPS to him when we are kiting the fires, so it really isn't that important what we use on him.
No SV hunters fight Reliquary of Souls? Or do you need me to actually start saving SWS logs before you can even begin to find what my problem in phase 2 is.
I haven't done this fight personally but from my understanding the push back is a beast. Some hunters spec MM over BM for this fight. I suspect for the same reasons SV will be better than BM too. You'll either do a 1:1 priority rotation (if you can get a steady off w/o clipping auto shot) or only fire autos with arcane, serpent, and multi shots.
On a side note, I just thought of a question. If a mob is immune to wyvern sting, is the dot still applied?
On a side note, I just thought of a question. If a mob is immune to wyvern sting, is the dot still applied?
I'm a SV hunter that does RoS. Unfortunately WWS is horrible at parsing RoS logs or I would post one for you. Here are some tips:
1. Generally speaking, use a 1:1 rotation. With Steady getting pushed back 0.5-0.9 seconds most of the time, 1.5:1 isn't offering you many advantages.
2. Auto + 2.4-second-cast-time Steady + Auto is still better than just 2 Autos.
3. Priority for your 1:1 rotation is: Arcane, Multi, Serpent Sting, Steady Shot.
4. When it's almost time for Deaden, let your Arcane and Multi cooldown and just use Steady for a couple rounds. That way when Deaden goes up, you can unload.
5. Imp. Arcane shot is nice to have for P2.
1. Generally speaking, use a 1:1 rotation. With Steady getting pushed back 0.5-0.9 seconds most of the time, 1.5:1 isn't offering you many advantages.
2. Auto + 2.4-second-cast-time Steady + Auto is still better than just 2 Autos.
3. Priority for your 1:1 rotation is: Arcane, Multi, Serpent Sting, Steady Shot.
4. When it's almost time for Deaden, let your Arcane and Multi cooldown and just use Steady for a couple rounds. That way when Deaden goes up, you can unload.
5. Imp. Arcane shot is nice to have for P2.
Ok, so I had the idea right, just I shouldn't expect to be pushing too many limits on the meters during this phase. Why Arcane over Multi first? Multi has a long CD so if that's is cast first between autos it'd go like mult, aut, arc, aut, sting, aut (somewhere between before and after this auto it should be back up...right?), steady or multi depending.
Are you seriously telling me that steady is a good idea in this phase? That just..doesn't sound right.
For deaden, is it an utter waste to have haste effects as they'd be better used during non deadens? Does it lower damage taken by her or nullify it completely. If the former, I'd think haste up and auto spam with a serpent tossed in until it's over.
My current spec is on my profile, I have IAS, but I think my spec may be a little too diversified. I'm not getting good uptime out of EW. Didn't know the difference between 33 and 66 was so large as the diff between 66 and 100 appears <- (keyword as I'm a soft theorist who is too lazy to run numbers that don't fit in my head) negligible.
Are you seriously telling me that steady is a good idea in this phase? That just..doesn't sound right.
For deaden, is it an utter waste to have haste effects as they'd be better used during non deadens? Does it lower damage taken by her or nullify it completely. If the former, I'd think haste up and auto spam with a serpent tossed in until it's over.
My current spec is on my profile, I have IAS, but I think my spec may be a little too diversified. I'm not getting good uptime out of EW. Didn't know the difference between 33 and 66 was so large as the diff between 66 and 100 appears <- (keyword as I'm a soft theorist who is too lazy to run numbers that don't fit in my head) negligible.
You can do a reasonable amount of damage in P2 as a survival hunter. Many other DPS classes (mage, warlock, shadow priest, elem shaman) have pushback on at least some of their abilities, so you should be comparable with them at the minimum.
Steady is a good idea when you have nothing else to do. Even if it takes you 3.5 seconds to fire one steady and one auto, consider that if you just autoshotted during this time you would fire (3.5 / attack speed) autos in the same amount of time. As SV this is going to be less than two autos, guaranteed. So, using steady is more DPS when Arcane and Multi are on CD and Serpent Sting is applied.
Use all of your cooldowns, meaning haste effects, +AP trinkets, and anything else, during Deaden. You simply will get better results because the effects are multiplied by 2 (provided your healers can keep you alive). Haste only buys you a minimal amount of Steady pushback avoidance, and you're not using steady that much anyway, so it's much less effective outside of Deaden.
As for why Arcane over Multi first, the answer is that it doesn't matter that much, DPS-wise.
Steady is a good idea when you have nothing else to do. Even if it takes you 3.5 seconds to fire one steady and one auto, consider that if you just autoshotted during this time you would fire (3.5 / attack speed) autos in the same amount of time. As SV this is going to be less than two autos, guaranteed. So, using steady is more DPS when Arcane and Multi are on CD and Serpent Sting is applied.
Use all of your cooldowns, meaning haste effects, +AP trinkets, and anything else, during Deaden. You simply will get better results because the effects are multiplied by 2 (provided your healers can keep you alive). Haste only buys you a minimal amount of Steady pushback avoidance, and you're not using steady that much anyway, so it's much less effective outside of Deaden.
As for why Arcane over Multi first, the answer is that it doesn't matter that much, DPS-wise.
Ok, the steady thing is just going to take me not switching to pure auto when I see the pushback on quartz. Doable just will take me keeping this in mind during then. And I'm retarded for forgetting what deaden does (I just remember the raid leader saying 'Deaden's up, please God don't kill yourself')
Wait I should be comparable...oh I don't kill trash on the way to ROS, so that may be why I'm so low.
So, as a fellow SV user could you critique my spec or tell me if 33 to 66 is really a larger gap than 66-100.
Wait I should be comparable...oh I don't kill trash on the way to ROS, so that may be why I'm so low.
So, as a fellow SV user could you critique my spec or tell me if 33 to 66 is really a larger gap than 66-100.
On RoS I tend to keep my normal 1:1.5 rotation of Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Repeat. I almost always get a paladin for the interruption aura. Here's some WWS for you to compare:
Wow Web Stats
If you take a look at the Essence of Anger parses, I'm definitely middle of the pack dps, ~2400. It's obvious that the BM serpents swiftness + 1:1 rotation is superior for the fight, as Boduar and Feliann (our BM hunters) wipe the floor with me here. I'll try out a 1:1 rotation as survival on our next RoS fight (2 weeks away), not sure whether the increased dps is due to the rotation or to serpents swiftness making your casts short enough to avoid interruption.
Wunlastri- I've found 1/3 is far too rare for raid use. Honestly, I've been asking myself if 2/3 is enough- I definitely notice it drop at times on tank & spank fights, and I notice it takes a while to proc at times on fights where we switch targets (Illidan and shadowfiends comes to mind). And this is when running a 45% crit rate without feral druid.
Wow Web Stats
If you take a look at the Essence of Anger parses, I'm definitely middle of the pack dps, ~2400. It's obvious that the BM serpents swiftness + 1:1 rotation is superior for the fight, as Boduar and Feliann (our BM hunters) wipe the floor with me here. I'll try out a 1:1 rotation as survival on our next RoS fight (2 weeks away), not sure whether the increased dps is due to the rotation or to serpents swiftness making your casts short enough to avoid interruption.
Wunlastri- I've found 1/3 is far too rare for raid use. Honestly, I've been asking myself if 2/3 is enough- I definitely notice it drop at times on tank & spank fights, and I notice it takes a while to proc at times on fights where we switch targets (Illidan and shadowfiends comes to mind). And this is when running a 45% crit rate without feral druid.
During phase 2 of RoS, it helps me a lot if I stand as close to the boss as I can. I don't stand just outside of melee range, I just stand about 5y closer than the rest of the ranged/healers (so I still catch chain heals, etc). The interrupts will come closer to the beginning of steady shot and not get a full 1s push-back, instead getting about 1/3 of a second. I sustain my 1:1.5 rotation, being careful during deadens. What really hurts Survival hunters during the phase, though, is not getting the 20% haste to steady shot.
One thing that made the survival transition easier, though, was first accepting my role as a utility raid member. There aren't really any utility classes in Warcraft, so it's hard to see it sometimes. At first I was appalled at my lowered damage output--from top 3 to bottom 3 DPS in the beginning. But damage meters don't count the overall damage contribution of any class, or damage reduction to the tank for that matter. A healthy expose weakness debuff, combined with Imp. Hunter's Mark and Scorpid Sting make for a large raid contribution. Nearly 300AP for the raid, an extra 110AP for the melee, and around 12% damage reduction to the main tank on many fights is significant. No other class can do quite as much.
One thing that made the survival transition easier, though, was first accepting my role as a utility raid member. There aren't really any utility classes in Warcraft, so it's hard to see it sometimes. At first I was appalled at my lowered damage output--from top 3 to bottom 3 DPS in the beginning. But damage meters don't count the overall damage contribution of any class, or damage reduction to the tank for that matter. A healthy expose weakness debuff, combined with Imp. Hunter's Mark and Scorpid Sting make for a large raid contribution. Nearly 300AP for the raid, an extra 110AP for the melee, and around 12% damage reduction to the main tank on many fights is significant. No other class can do quite as much.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
There's no doubt that Survival hunters have an excellent contribution to raid DPS. The EW debuff is very powerful and scalable. BM Hunters will almost always beat you on "personal" DPS, but if you consider the value that EW adds, Survival is probably a higher overall contributor. This is, of course, dependent on your raid configuration and a number of other factors so it's hard to prove this for all cases.
As far as 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 EW: if you search the hunter threads you'll find some math for EW uptime. The general conclusion is, with a reasonable crit rate (35%+) 1/3 = low-medium uptime, 2/3 = high uptime (70%+), and 3/3 = very high uptime (85%+). The thing you need to keep in mind is that this math assumes infinite time on a single target. Similar to BM hunter math that supports 4/5 Frenzy, this type of math really downplays the time it takes for the buff to go up when you switch targets or stop-and-restart. In the vast majority of boss fights you will spend time switching DPS targets or stopping DPS on your primary target. A fight like RoS is a typical example. You are letting EW debuff fall off your primary target twice due to the phase transitions. So your actual uptime is significantly less than your theoretical "infinite-time" uptime.
This is why, in my opinion, 3/3 EW is a necessity.
As far as 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 EW: if you search the hunter threads you'll find some math for EW uptime. The general conclusion is, with a reasonable crit rate (35%+) 1/3 = low-medium uptime, 2/3 = high uptime (70%+), and 3/3 = very high uptime (85%+). The thing you need to keep in mind is that this math assumes infinite time on a single target. Similar to BM hunter math that supports 4/5 Frenzy, this type of math really downplays the time it takes for the buff to go up when you switch targets or stop-and-restart. In the vast majority of boss fights you will spend time switching DPS targets or stopping DPS on your primary target. A fight like RoS is a typical example. You are letting EW debuff fall off your primary target twice due to the phase transitions. So your actual uptime is significantly less than your theoretical "infinite-time" uptime.
This is why, in my opinion, 3/3 EW is a necessity.
Last edited by Trohck : 12/15/07 at 3:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
This is why, in my opinion, 3/3 EW is a necessity (and 5/5 Frenzy for BM hunters).
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To me, the most logical talent to drop is 1 from frenzy rather than 1 from FI, AH, or other higher tier bm talents...Theoretically with the high crit rate of pets, and frequently being able to use kill command/focus dumps, frenzy should still almost always be up.
The same is not true of EW.
Anthalis, you are right and I've edited my original post to reflect this. 4/5 Frenzy is not optimal for a 41/20 build (though there are other reasonable BM raid builds such as 46/12/3 that put more than 41 points in BM)
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Wait I should be comparable...oh I don't kill trash on the way to ROS, so that may be why I'm so low.
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If EW was a 5 point talent and you had a high crit rate I'd agree that 4/5 would probably be acceptable... although if it was a 5 point talent it would be a lower dps build. As it stands, I've tried 2/3 and 3/3. Since your crit rate is already random with dips and peaks is time between crits, its not a good idea to try your luck to add another random chance to the effect. There were times when I would crit 20 times in a row... EW would stay up perfectly, then I wouldn't crit for another 20 with 1 crit in the middle. If that crit in the middle lucks out and doesn't proc EW then your effectiveness drops considerably over the numerous times this will happen in a raid.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
@Wunlastri & RoS company.
0/20/41, doing 1:1.5 if possible. Standing 5-6y away from RoS (enrage tanking in p1 with 2xdetterence, snake trap in p2 -- if needed).
No trash in wws apart from 1-2 that we picked along on pull.
Wow Web Stats
Aura works on our shots? (Steady) This is something new to me. Anyone able to confirm?
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Concentration Aura
As far as I know, aura never worked on Aimed/Steady.
Edit:
As far as 2/3 - 3/3 EW is concerned. I support 3/3 at any crit rating. All % of uptime we know currently is derived from spreadsheet that is assuming 100% of dps time with "perfect" rotation. In real raid situations we know thats not the case... moving away from fire, drinking pots, FD for aggro, mend pet, etc. They all lower the EW uptime.
0/20/41, doing 1:1.5 if possible. Standing 5-6y away from RoS (enrage tanking in p1 with 2xdetterence, snake trap in p2 -- if needed).
No trash in wws apart from 1-2 that we picked along on pull.
Wow Web Stats
| I almost always get a paladin for the interruption aura. |
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Concentration Aura
As far as I know, aura never worked on Aimed/Steady.
Edit:
As far as 2/3 - 3/3 EW is concerned. I support 3/3 at any crit rating. All % of uptime we know currently is derived from spreadsheet that is assuming 100% of dps time with "perfect" rotation. In real raid situations we know thats not the case... moving away from fire, drinking pots, FD for aggro, mend pet, etc. They all lower the EW uptime.
Last edited by Sapa : 12/17/07 at 8:15 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Sapa
As far as 2/3 - 3/3 EW is concerned. I support 3/3 at any crit rating. All % of uptime we know currently is derived from spreadsheet that is assuming 100% of dps time with "perfect" rotation. In real raid situations we know thats not the case... moving away from fire, drinking pots, FD for aggro, mend pet, etc. They all lower the EW uptime.
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In a previous post (Hunter Lounge: Theory craft within Page 3)
You suggested 2/3 EW & 3/3 ToTH... have you changed your position on this?
Depending on Crit Rate... with my current gear, the spreadsheet models my EW uptime:
2/3 at 87% (standard raid buffs, no LoTP)
2/3 at 90% (standard raid buffs w/ LoTP)
3/3 at 97% (standard raid buffs)
As you suggested the real time of EW is lower for the factors you mentioned above but I can't see raiding with only 2/3 ToTH at current gear levels (we just downed Vashj and I burnt through 26 mana pots during the night)
I also switch Mark of Conquest in for the Hourglass for Boss Fights... I still seem to be chain chugging pots to keep up the 1:1.5 rotation.
Switching specs to 0/24/37 results in a loss of 14 DPS plus no Readiness /cry. [edited for accuracy]
Any suggestions Zek? Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Vasilii : 12/17/07 at 10:25 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
A quick question regarding pets. Whats the best pet for a Surv/MM hunter (41/20)?
I've seen a lot of discussion across the hunter forums about Wind serpents and the LB damage - I had a wind serpent but scrapped it; there didn't seem to be enough focus for the LB to do much damage. Even though I have a good %crit (30+% with hourglass equipped) and Go for the throat I still couldn't give the pet enough focus to keep LB going. Compared to gore and claw LB is a very slow attack and seems to even do less damage than scorpid sting, so how valuable is it really?
Currently I have a cat (frost/nature resist), a ravager (fire/arcane resist) and a scorpid (balanced resistances). The focus dump of Gore is great for BM (I gather) but how does that scale for surv/mm? Seen multiple posts about the value of scorpid sting and its stacking ability, but how much of a difference does that really make as some of the nature damage will be mitigated? Should I toss my ravager for a wind serpent, or just give up on the scorpid? My cat is a rare spawn from WS so I'd hate to loose it, but will do what is necessary to even get that extra 1dps on a boss.
I've seen a lot of discussion across the hunter forums about Wind serpents and the LB damage - I had a wind serpent but scrapped it; there didn't seem to be enough focus for the LB to do much damage. Even though I have a good %crit (30+% with hourglass equipped) and Go for the throat I still couldn't give the pet enough focus to keep LB going. Compared to gore and claw LB is a very slow attack and seems to even do less damage than scorpid sting, so how valuable is it really?
Currently I have a cat (frost/nature resist), a ravager (fire/arcane resist) and a scorpid (balanced resistances). The focus dump of Gore is great for BM (I gather) but how does that scale for surv/mm? Seen multiple posts about the value of scorpid sting and its stacking ability, but how much of a difference does that really make as some of the nature damage will be mitigated? Should I toss my ravager for a wind serpent, or just give up on the scorpid? My cat is a rare spawn from WS so I'd hate to loose it, but will do what is necessary to even get that extra 1dps on a boss.
Last edited by Talrunya : 12/17/07 at 3:47 PM.
When all else fails, stick with a cat
Personally, i have a wind serpent stabled and fully trained, but my current 38ish raid buffed crit seems a bit too low for LB to be properly spammed. So, for now a cat works for me, but I'll probably give the serpent another try.
As for a scorpid, it's likely probably worse than every other PVE pet at the moment. The reason is that scorpid poison has been... ahem... normalized.
Personally, i have a wind serpent stabled and fully trained, but my current 38ish raid buffed crit seems a bit too low for LB to be properly spammed. So, for now a cat works for me, but I'll probably give the serpent another try.
As for a scorpid, it's likely probably worse than every other PVE pet at the moment. The reason is that scorpid poison has been... ahem... normalized.
Wind serpents do the best DPS for high crit and AP builds (MM and SV). The problem is that you need to make sure that lightning breath is written into your macro since the caster AI for pets is stupid. Also you need GftT and an insane crit rate to make it worth it. I use a wind serpent and I'll never go back now that I've seen what it can do.
Too lazy to quote, so a few replies to a few things:
Use a Wind Serpent for pretty similar reasons - I push to about 42% crit in raids without LoTP or GoA, and hit nearly 49% with (and I'd consider my gear/build to be slanted towards maximising my AP over crit).
As for RoS, standing close sounds like an interesting option - might give that a try. The pushback is a pain (I'd personally never touch Serpent sting in P2 unless I was abandoning Steady shot entirely, and I don't think that's the best option). Improved arcane shot is very good here too ofc. Main thing for P2 is do whatever it takes to keep EW up - as melee DPS are the only ones completely unaffected by pushback issues, and unload at Deadens.
I've seen the arguments for 2/3 EW and they just don't wash with me. SV spec is about giving a very high contribution to raid DPS, as well as TPS boosts for tanks. Particularly fights with multiple targets/periods of no DPS, you want EW up on each new target asap, and you want it to stay there. Off the top of my head: Hydross, Morogrim, Lurker, Leothoras, Karathress, A'lar, Solarion, Kael'thas, RoS, Mother, Illidan and Archimonde all have significant potential gaps in your DPS time.
Use a Wind Serpent for pretty similar reasons - I push to about 42% crit in raids without LoTP or GoA, and hit nearly 49% with (and I'd consider my gear/build to be slanted towards maximising my AP over crit).
As for RoS, standing close sounds like an interesting option - might give that a try. The pushback is a pain (I'd personally never touch Serpent sting in P2 unless I was abandoning Steady shot entirely, and I don't think that's the best option). Improved arcane shot is very good here too ofc. Main thing for P2 is do whatever it takes to keep EW up - as melee DPS are the only ones completely unaffected by pushback issues, and unload at Deadens.
I've seen the arguments for 2/3 EW and they just don't wash with me. SV spec is about giving a very high contribution to raid DPS, as well as TPS boosts for tanks. Particularly fights with multiple targets/periods of no DPS, you want EW up on each new target asap, and you want it to stay there. Off the top of my head: Hydross, Morogrim, Lurker, Leothoras, Karathress, A'lar, Solarion, Kael'thas, RoS, Mother, Illidan and Archimonde all have significant potential gaps in your DPS time.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Zek,
In a previous post (Hunter Lounge: Theory craft within Page 3) You suggested 2/3 EW & 3/3 ToTH... have you changed your position on this? As you suggested the real time of EW is lower for the factors you mentioned above but I can't see raiding with only 2/3 ToTH at current gear levels (we just downed Vashj and I burnt through 26 mana pots during the night) I also switch Mark of Conquest in for the Hourglass for Boss Fights... I still seem to be chain chugging pots to keep up the 1:1.5 rotation. Switching specs to 0/24/37 results in a loss of 14 DPS plus no Readiness /cry. [edited for accuracy] Any suggestions Zek? Thanks in advance. |
If you check my spec, you should find it bit unusual for a raider, improved traps and no ToTH.
What I accepted is that my utility is more important than my damage. Meaning that never lack of my damage was cause for a wipe (I'm usually among top5 anyway). It was always dead tank, dead aoe, dead healers... so I do my best to prevent those things.
So I try to have Scorpid Sting up 100% among other things. I believe math was done quite some time ago that scorpid sting reduces incoming damage taken by T5 tank by ~12-13% on non dual wield boss. And more avoidance = better scorpid gain.
As you can imagine even with 3/3 toth, MoC, Alchemy Stone and all consumables 1:1.5 rotation with scorpid sting (+mend pet, misdirects, traps...) is impossible to handle with AotH. So I began switching to Viper when on 30-40% mana. At that time I noticed that doing that fixes all the problems. 1:1.5 rotation + scorpid + viper/hawk switching (and lots of mend pet) = 1.3-1.4k dps on 10minute Council fight. GG?
Hawk is big (~50dps) chunk of damage, but that damage is only needed on few fights in Hyall/BT all of witch can be done without TotH.
Other fights are all about survival, keeping up the pace and good execution of certain tasks (like shock interrupting on RoS that held us back for 2-3 raids). Being able to drink Health or in my case Mad Alchemist pot with 40% bonus instead Super/Fel mana is godsend on those fights. Dead people don't dps... or eat damage instead MT healer.
I dare to say that on long fights switching to Viper is doing far more for me in terms of Raid Damage than trying to keep hawk up (and having toth) would.
* I can keep EW up at near maximum uptime, all the time (at start and at end of 15minute fight). Since I very rarely go OOM till next pot I very rarely drop rotation. Keeping EW up for 6-7 people I'm sure closes 50dps loss gap if it doesn't surpass it. Didn't really go trough my WWS and check "real uptime of EW" before and now - added to ToDo list.
* Scorpid up is saving healer mana and more important their gdcs, they can afford to heal random raid members more.
It works for me. I'm among top damage dealers (more due top1 activity than actual dps). I die rarely if ever and usually as last dps standing. We wipe less due random crap and our raids are faster. Plus spec is fun, I was always fan of trapping stuff especially dangerous ones. (BT Archmages, Whirlwinding mobs...).
Maybe Survival is named so for a reason, people around you have bigger chance at it?
Zek, I have to say, the build looks great for what it's supposed to do. I've been considering something similar for a while. Of course, the lower tier talents are about as useful as third leg when it comes to utility, but that's survival for us
Probably, when I'll get mp5 back on my gear I'll give one of these builds a try myself. I already thought of myself as having great utility, with Readiness, EW and being the raid's scorpid battery. I've had some good experiences with an 0/21/40 build for heroics, before they were toned down. The thing is, the 40 points in survival included all trap enhancing talents, 3/3 TOTH, 3/3 EW, 3/3 resourcefulness and Wyvern sting, but no readiness. I suppose it's nowhere near a dps build, but there are lots of silly wipes or situations in Hyjal where better CC could have made a difference. BUT, on the other hand, there are lots more situations where an extra MD helped me recover the raid from premature tank deaths. Looking back at it, dropping TOTH instead of MD is just the thing I needed but didn't think of it.
However, I'd like to see how Wyvern sting handles in a raid. Now that it's instant, it's basically a bigger, badder scatter shot. The only problem is shadow priests are in short supply, and right now my gear has 0 mp5, and I honestly don't think I can afford dropping TOTH just yet. Now, given that you're playing without it at the moment, my question is: are there any situations where mana suddenly became an issue? and if so, did you find a way around it?
EDIT: Damn, I didn't see the Alchemist Stone thing. I'm guessing it makes up for quite a bit of extra mana on a long fight. I suppose I'll have to use [Dark Rune] instead of the Mad Alchemist potions, cause of my professions. Still, I'd like to know if there are any encounters where you really run OOM (ahem, except Kaz'rogal). Knowing that, i could get into a SP group for just that particular fight.
Probably, when I'll get mp5 back on my gear I'll give one of these builds a try myself. I already thought of myself as having great utility, with Readiness, EW and being the raid's scorpid battery. I've had some good experiences with an 0/21/40 build for heroics, before they were toned down. The thing is, the 40 points in survival included all trap enhancing talents, 3/3 TOTH, 3/3 EW, 3/3 resourcefulness and Wyvern sting, but no readiness. I suppose it's nowhere near a dps build, but there are lots of silly wipes or situations in Hyjal where better CC could have made a difference. BUT, on the other hand, there are lots more situations where an extra MD helped me recover the raid from premature tank deaths. Looking back at it, dropping TOTH instead of MD is just the thing I needed but didn't think of it.
However, I'd like to see how Wyvern sting handles in a raid. Now that it's instant, it's basically a bigger, badder scatter shot. The only problem is shadow priests are in short supply, and right now my gear has 0 mp5, and I honestly don't think I can afford dropping TOTH just yet. Now, given that you're playing without it at the moment, my question is: are there any situations where mana suddenly became an issue? and if so, did you find a way around it?
EDIT: Damn, I didn't see the Alchemist Stone thing. I'm guessing it makes up for quite a bit of extra mana on a long fight. I suppose I'll have to use [Dark Rune] instead of the Mad Alchemist potions, cause of my professions. Still, I'd like to know if there are any encounters where you really run OOM (ahem, except Kaz'rogal). Knowing that, i could get into a SP group for just that particular fight.
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Originally Posted by Enova
* Probably, when I'll get mp5 back on my gear I'll give one of these builds a try myself.
* However, I'd like to see how Wyvern sting handles in a raid. * EDIT: Damn, I didn't see the Alchemist Stone thing. * Still, I'd like to know if there are any encounters where you really run OOM (ahem, except Kaz'rogal). Knowing that, i could get into a SP group for just that particular fight. |
* Waste of talent point from my personal experience. Easier (and safer for healers) to grab aggro and trap or deterrence tank snare/trap immune mobs. Readiness gives you ability to tank anything for 20 seconds. Like RoS enrage in phase1 if rogues mess something up. And it doesn't work ok -> Wyvern -> TrapSleeped -> Scorpid... trap breaks from 0 damage?!
* Alchemist Stone. Best piece of my gear easy. Can't describe greatness of this trinket, dropping mining and screwing my "mine ore - be rich" enterprise was so worth it. 4480 mana from FelMana pot in case of extreme emergency. Yes please.
* Viper does wonders at low mana, so you are never truly OOM. Worst thing that happens at 300 raid buffed intellect is 1:1 steady rotation with scorpid sting up (and mana rises slowly). And that usually doesn't last longer than 20seconds. (this reset had this only on enraged council - 15minutes+ happen to me).
Kazrogal... SR > ManaDrain. Had kills where I resisted all drains with 3 pieces of BT SR gear + SR buff.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
delete...
Last edited by Sapa : 12/18/07 at 10:35 AM. Reason: reposted previous somehow...
Thanks for the feedback on the wind serpent, suppose I will try one again later when my +crit gets a bit higher. Right now I don't think my 30% unbuffed will cut it.
Zek... just a question about Wyvern sting. I know quite a few mobs are immune but yet I find it a very valuable form of CC in raids, especially if its just to keep a mob off one of the healers until the tank/dps gets one of the others down. Based on your build (which is pretty similar to mine) I noticed you gave that up for increased time on the traps.. not a bad idea by any means, but is it then that Wyvern is comepletely useless in higher level raids. Right now I'm in gruuls/SSC/TK and find it a very quick and effective CC for when groups of trash start to get out of control. Will it be any less useful later on?
Also, I know counterattack doesn't do much unless you have 5/5 deflection, but it has saved me more than once when I ended up tanking trash for a few seconds. Is that not worth the point either?
General question - i've been struggling to get my +crit to that magical 35% or better for a while now and just can't get it. I know Survivalists should focus on +agi gear, but I've thrown in a few +crit/+ap gems to try and get my +crit up. My gear -
WoW armory
Should I trade those in for pure +crit gems, or go back to the +agi stuff. The +crit/+ap help my personal dps somewhat (based on cheeky's spreadsheet) but I do feel that my +crit should be a bit higher. I just wondering even with +1000agi how much of a benefit will I be to a raid if I cant keep expose weekness up?
Zek... just a question about Wyvern sting. I know quite a few mobs are immune but yet I find it a very valuable form of CC in raids, especially if its just to keep a mob off one of the healers until the tank/dps gets one of the others down. Based on your build (which is pretty similar to mine) I noticed you gave that up for increased time on the traps.. not a bad idea by any means, but is it then that Wyvern is comepletely useless in higher level raids. Right now I'm in gruuls/SSC/TK and find it a very quick and effective CC for when groups of trash start to get out of control. Will it be any less useful later on?
Also, I know counterattack doesn't do much unless you have 5/5 deflection, but it has saved me more than once when I ended up tanking trash for a few seconds. Is that not worth the point either?
General question - i've been struggling to get my +crit to that magical 35% or better for a while now and just can't get it. I know Survivalists should focus on +agi gear, but I've thrown in a few +crit/+ap gems to try and get my +crit up. My gear -
WoW armory
Should I trade those in for pure +crit gems, or go back to the +agi stuff. The +crit/+ap help my personal dps somewhat (based on cheeky's spreadsheet) but I do feel that my +crit should be a bit higher. I just wondering even with +1000agi how much of a benefit will I be to a raid if I cant keep expose weekness up?
Talrunya,
You really need to put agi into every slot available. You get a 15% bonus to your agi, along with the 10% from blessing of kings. Few things will raise your personal DPS/Crit better than AGI. At lower levels of crit you just need to ensure you keep 3 points in EW. By socketing crit/ap over AGI you nerf yourself, you nerf your pet, and you nerf your EW debuff. Don't do it.
You really need to put agi into every slot available. You get a 15% bonus to your agi, along with the 10% from blessing of kings. Few things will raise your personal DPS/Crit better than AGI. At lower levels of crit you just need to ensure you keep 3 points in EW. By socketing crit/ap over AGI you nerf yourself, you nerf your pet, and you nerf your EW debuff. Don't do it.
@Talrunya
Gem +Agi where possible. (just ensure you have Meta requirements and your hit rating settled).
As Wyvern sting goes. I had more success with trapping(or in SSC/TK with kiting) far more. 26sec Frezze and 26sec keeps some troublesome mobs permanently freezed if their primary CC dies. Concussive Shot(to cover trap activation time)/Retrap. Also it gives me ability to have specific area permanently heavily entrapment-frosted myself (when second frost goes off, first is still up for 13 seconds). Hyall trash trembles (well when they see protection paladin, covered in frost).
Wyvern is too short term solution witch requires someone to tank mob after sleep is over. And shit usually hits the fan when one of tanks die, requiring second/third tank to take over. If Scorpid Sting would properly rewrite Wyvern Sting I would probably take it.
Counterattack no, just no. You counter, step away, unwary person near mob gets the pain. Low proc rate (5% - Deflection can be better spent on other talents) that works usually only when you use deterrence... and remember IF it can be Counterattacked it can be Frozen/Wing Clipped... 2 better solutions really. Frozen mob is CCed, Wing Cliped mob can be kited most of time and CCed this way.
And if you need to use Deterrence, then mob probably can't be trapped/counterattacked at all.
On fun factor. 8-12k hits (+dots) with explosive trap, and taunting rogues to keep up with your melee can be fun.
Gem +Agi where possible. (just ensure you have Meta requirements and your hit rating settled).
As Wyvern sting goes. I had more success with trapping(or in SSC/TK with kiting) far more. 26sec Frezze and 26sec keeps some troublesome mobs permanently freezed if their primary CC dies. Concussive Shot(to cover trap activation time)/Retrap. Also it gives me ability to have specific area permanently heavily entrapment-frosted myself (when second frost goes off, first is still up for 13 seconds). Hyall trash trembles (well when they see protection paladin, covered in frost).
Wyvern is too short term solution witch requires someone to tank mob after sleep is over. And shit usually hits the fan when one of tanks die, requiring second/third tank to take over. If Scorpid Sting would properly rewrite Wyvern Sting I would probably take it.
Counterattack no, just no. You counter, step away, unwary person near mob gets the pain. Low proc rate (5% - Deflection can be better spent on other talents) that works usually only when you use deterrence... and remember IF it can be Counterattacked it can be Frozen/Wing Clipped... 2 better solutions really. Frozen mob is CCed, Wing Cliped mob can be kited most of time and CCed this way.
And if you need to use Deterrence, then mob probably can't be trapped/counterattacked at all.
On fun factor. 8-12k hits (+dots) with explosive trap, and taunting rogues to keep up with your melee can be fun.
First of all this is my first time posting on these boards , I just had a few questions about survival dps. I just recently got into a guild who is clearing tk,ssc, and workin on hyal and bt. I have been raiding survival for a while, as i am not really a big fan of mm, and bm isnt my favorites of spec. I do sometimes switch to bm to see how my dmg increases. I have not seen a big jump in numbers when I spec bm then when im survival. I spec 5/20/36, imp aspect of the hawk, 3/3 expose weakness and thrill of the hunt. For my numbers im also going to be using a Hydross kill. I managed to keep 934dps for 9minutes.
My questions were, 1: What theoritacly(i probably spelled tha wrong) is the best survival dps spec? When should you stop stacking agi? I have 847unbuffed with 2080ap, 35percent crit. Is there going to be a new 2.3 survival raiding guide? Should I loose some agi/crit to gain more ap? I am wearing 2vengefull pieces that I can replace with t5 shoulders and chest from ssc.
I dont know what else, i'll try and think and make another post but thanks for reading
My questions were, 1: What theoritacly(i probably spelled tha wrong) is the best survival dps spec? When should you stop stacking agi? I have 847unbuffed with 2080ap, 35percent crit. Is there going to be a new 2.3 survival raiding guide? Should I loose some agi/crit to gain more ap? I am wearing 2vengefull pieces that I can replace with t5 shoulders and chest from ssc.
I dont know what else, i'll try and think and make another post but thanks for reading
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Originally Posted by Sapa
If Scorpid Sting would properly rewrite Wyvern Sting I would probably take it.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Just wait until the sleep ends to apply Scorpid, it should work.
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The purpose of using sleep in a raid would generally be so that it can be CC'd by a more reliable CC (ice trap) shortly after. Unless the hunter has aggro on the mob (which one distracting shot may or may not be enough for) then dropping the ice trap and then waiting for sleep to end before applying scorpid sting won't really be effective.
It's not usually going to be a planned and viable means of CC. It can be nice for emergencies, but I'm a strong believer that individuals should spec for boss fights, not for trash. The boss encounters where you might find a use for Wyvern Sting are few and far between.
It's a PvP ability in my opinion, or a Heroic/10 man ability at best.
Wyvern Sting is mostly a PvP ability (and it's not even a very good PvP ability, mostly due to the very large cooldown). I've used it with limited success during raids - typically Wyvern->Scorpid->Freezing Trap.
On a related note I'd point out that most raids spend 50%+ of their time on trash, so optimizing for trash isn't necessarily a bad idea, so long as you can kill the bosses.
On a related note I'd point out that most raids spend 50%+ of their time on trash, so optimizing for trash isn't necessarily a bad idea, so long as you can kill the bosses.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Thanks for the feedback, it is greatly appreciated.
Taking Hamaa's point, I was not suggesting that it be used as a regular CC method, just in emergency cases. Quite a few of us are still regulars to the 10 man/heroic scene, especially with the appearance of ZA, so don't count that out just yet.
On a unrelated note, i've been trying to work out my shot rotation macro but not having much luck. Based on cheeky's spreadsheet i've been trying to create a macro for a 1:1 (priority) arcane/multi rotation but somehow I just cant seem to make it work... i'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong. Is this shot rotation just not workable or is it that I should go arcane/steady instead? I would really appreciate anyone that can point me in the right direction.
Taking Hamaa's point, I was not suggesting that it be used as a regular CC method, just in emergency cases. Quite a few of us are still regulars to the 10 man/heroic scene, especially with the appearance of ZA, so don't count that out just yet.
On a unrelated note, i've been trying to work out my shot rotation macro but not having much luck. Based on cheeky's spreadsheet i've been trying to create a macro for a 1:1 (priority) arcane/multi rotation but somehow I just cant seem to make it work... i'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong. Is this shot rotation just not workable or is it that I should go arcane/steady instead? I would really appreciate anyone that can point me in the right direction.
Last edited by Talrunya : 12/18/07 at 5:59 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Wyvern Sting is mostly a PvP ability (and it's not even a very good PvP ability, mostly due to the very large cooldown). I've used it with limited success during raids - typically Wyvern->Scorpid->Freezing Trap.
On a related note I'd point out that most raids spend 50%+ of their time on trash, so optimizing for trash isn't necessarily a bad idea, so long as you can kill the bosses. |
The ammount of time you spend on trash is only more than that spent on a boss when the boss is on farm status. At that point, all of this becomes a moot point. Many guilds could clear all of the trash in any given instance in 100% PvP specs, but they could not clear those bosses in the same specs. Spec for bosses, or spec for failure.
Minor adjustments that have a big impact on Hyjal trash might be understandable, but at the end of the day, it's the purples you want, and for that you need to kill bosses. (Yes I know there is trash loot, but let's not entertain that silly argument please.)
Even if you're working on a lot of new bosses, you will have to reclear trash. Having some talents aimed at trash in your spec can still be good. Clearing trash may be easy to do without wipes, but doing it faster will inevitably give you more time to work on a new boss. Even if you wipe an extra time or two because you are not the absolute optimal boss-killing spec, you might spend less total time getting your first kill because you saved time clearing trash.
All I'm saying is there is a balance to be struck. You shouldn't take exclusively boss talents and ignore trash talents, since the majority of your time will be spend "farming" whether you're clearing Karazhan or Black Temple. Likewise, your spec shouldn't be solely aimed at trash clearing. Fortunately, many talents cover both cases well.
All I'm saying is there is a balance to be struck. You shouldn't take exclusively boss talents and ignore trash talents, since the majority of your time will be spend "farming" whether you're clearing Karazhan or Black Temple. Likewise, your spec shouldn't be solely aimed at trash clearing. Fortunately, many talents cover both cases well.
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Originally Posted by Talrunya
Thanks for the feedback, it is greatly appreciated.
Taking Hamaa's point, I was not suggesting that it be used as a regular CC method, just in emergency cases. Quite a few of us are still regulars to the 10 man/heroic scene, especially with the appearance of ZA, so don't count that out just yet. On a unrelated note, i've been trying to work out my shot rotation macro but not having much luck. Based on cheeky's spreadsheet i've been trying to create a macro for a 1:1 (priority) arcane/multi rotation but somehow I just cant seem to make it work... i'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong. Is this shot rotation just not workable or is it that I should go arcane/steady instead? I would really appreciate anyone that can point me in the right direction. |
As for the shot rotation macro... Aren't you survival? If you are then I suspect you should be using a 1:1.5 shot rotation. I can't look at your armory from work, but with a fast weapon and some haste gear/procs you could get down to a 1:1 rotation I suppose. It's probably not worth it but, again, to each their own.
A good 1:1 rotation that includes arcane.
#showtooltip Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=6 Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#showtooltip Multi-Shot /castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Multi-Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() <<<< This line may or may not be needed.
Thanks Kamaa.
My original sequence was -
/castsequence reset=10 auto shot, arcane shot, auto shot, multi shot, auto shot, steady shot, auto shot, arcane shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] kill command
The rotation I was trying to capture was -
auto, arcane, auto, multi, auto, steady, auto, arcane, auto, steady, auto, steady, [repeat]
Dont know what was happening, think it was clipping an auto shot or something.
Yes I am survival, and based on the reading here I should be using a 1:1.5, but working the shot rotations in Cheeky's spreadsheet I see an ~50 dps increase with 1:1 over 1:1.5. I'm not sure where(if) the bug is here but I did notice with the 1:1 rotation my auto shot was 2.35 as opposed to 3.15 with a 1:1.5 rotation. I'm new to macros so i'm not sure how much that has to do with it, but I gather 2.35 is what my auto shot should be as I'm using the Wolfslayer with the +15% attack speed ammo pouch.
Button smashing... been loving it since day 1; but as I read more of the forums I see hunters getting over 1kdps while the best I've been able to get is ~800dps. My gear isn't all that bad, and I know Cheeky's spreadsheet incorporates a lot of theoretical stuff, but I do feel that I should be able to get that extra 100 dps at least and macros seems to be the only thing I'm missing.
My original sequence was -
/castsequence reset=10 auto shot, arcane shot, auto shot, multi shot, auto shot, steady shot, auto shot, arcane shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] kill command
The rotation I was trying to capture was -
auto, arcane, auto, multi, auto, steady, auto, arcane, auto, steady, auto, steady, [repeat]
Dont know what was happening, think it was clipping an auto shot or something.
Yes I am survival, and based on the reading here I should be using a 1:1.5, but working the shot rotations in Cheeky's spreadsheet I see an ~50 dps increase with 1:1 over 1:1.5. I'm not sure where(if) the bug is here but I did notice with the 1:1 rotation my auto shot was 2.35 as opposed to 3.15 with a 1:1.5 rotation. I'm new to macros so i'm not sure how much that has to do with it, but I gather 2.35 is what my auto shot should be as I'm using the Wolfslayer with the +15% attack speed ammo pouch.
Button smashing... been loving it since day 1; but as I read more of the forums I see hunters getting over 1kdps while the best I've been able to get is ~800dps. My gear isn't all that bad, and I know Cheeky's spreadsheet incorporates a lot of theoretical stuff, but I do feel that I should be able to get that extra 100 dps at least and macros seems to be the only thing I'm missing.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Talrunya
Thanks Kamaa.
My original sequence was - /castsequence reset=10 auto shot, arcane shot, auto shot, multi shot, auto shot, steady shot, auto shot, arcane shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] kill command The rotation I was trying to capture was - auto, arcane, auto, multi, auto, steady, auto, arcane, auto, steady, auto, steady, [repeat] Dont know what was happening, think it was clipping an auto shot or something. Yes I am survival, and based on the reading here I should be using a 1:1.5, but working the shot rotations in Cheeky's spreadsheet I see an ~50 dps increase with 1:1 over 1:1.5. I'm not sure where(if) the bug is here but I did notice with the 1:1 rotation my auto shot was 2.35 as opposed to 3.15 with a 1:1.5 rotation. I'm new to macros so i'm not sure how much that has to do with it, but I gather 2.35 is what my auto shot should be as I'm using the Wolfslayer with the +15% attack speed ammo pouch. Button smashing... been loving it since day 1; but as I read more of the forums I see hunters getting over 1kdps while the best I've been able to get is ~800dps. My gear isn't all that bad, and I know Cheeky's spreadsheet incorporates a lot of theoretical stuff, but I do feel that I should be able to get that extra 100 dps at least and macros seems to be the only thing I'm missing. |
/castsequence reset=3 auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, auto shot, steady shot, auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot
no kill command
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/19/07 at 4:48 PM.
Does a macro so long really not clip shots? In my experience I've seen longer macros result in clips. This could be due to the fact that I only seem to get fast weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Get 2.9+ speed weapon for survival. Heroic SV bow could be a good start. The main reason you see a drop in dps is the weapon speed. And get truestrike ring from ah to replace the arathig warlords ring
/castsequence reset = 3 auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, auto shot, steady shot, auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot no kill command |
First,
"reset = 3"
"reset=3"
Second, will that macro even function properly with a reset of 3? You need at least a reset of 10 for multi-shot and if you insist on having multi-shot and arcane on the same macro then I'd advise a reset of 12 and weaving two arcane's into the one macro, but this will delay your multi shot by 1.5 seconds each rotation.
Last, even for an SV hunter (using What of Havoc from Cheeky's Spreadsheet as the baseline) the kill comand ability alone still provides ~80 theoretical DPS. Is there really any benefit to not using this ability?
I'm not out to flame or troll anybody, but there are more than enough "huntards" in the game. The last thing we need is young hunters coming to EJ forums for advice, and walking away with information that is less than accurate.
Edit: It's worth mentioning that Gruknok is absolutely correct about the 2.9 speed weapon. Get a slower weapon (Heroic SV, Exalted Thrallmar, Attumen, ZA) and use a 1:1.5 shot rotation and you should see a DPS boost.
Last edited by Kamaa : 12/19/07 at 10:56 AM.
Arsenal seems to be buggy these days for European characters. Sapa, would you mind posting your specc by using some kind of talent calculator? Thanks in advance.
Man this thread is getting long and it's really hard to read through all of it in one sitting and walk away with any useful information. I have been trying to read it in small burst when I have a moment at work or before raids, and I have been unsuccessful. What is typically the procedure for tanking such a long thread that has potentially every bit of information needed and starting a new thread with the the key points summarized?
I ask because I think it's about time.
Anyway, I am trying to gleam what I can as I can since I am considering switching to Survival for the raid benefit it potentially brings or what it theoretically brings from what I have read so far.
Here's the spec I am thinking of doing: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Can grab my gear from Armory as I am always in PvE gear. ;-P
I ask because I think it's about time.
Anyway, I am trying to gleam what I can as I can since I am considering switching to Survival for the raid benefit it potentially brings or what it theoretically brings from what I have read so far.
Here's the spec I am thinking of doing: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Can grab my gear from Armory as I am always in PvE gear. ;-P
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Get 2.9+ speed weapon for survival. Heroic SV bow could be a good start. The main reason you see a drop in dps is the weapon speed. And get truestrike ring from ah to replace the arathig warlords ring
/castsequence reset = 3 auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, auto shot, steady shot, auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot no kill command |
"Oops, my Multi-Shot broke that sheep."
"Oops, I pulled aggro on some of Morogrim's Murlocs."
etc.
Any situation where you have the potential to shoot multiple mobs and don't have complete control over when Multi-Shot does or doesn't fire is a bad situation.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
First,
"reset = 3" "reset=3" Second, will that macro even function properly with a reset of 3? You need at least a reset of 10 for multi-shot and if you insist on having multi-shot and arcane on the same macro then I'd advise a reset of 12 and weaving two arcane's into the one macro, but this will delay your multi shot by 1.5 seconds each rotation. Last, even for an SV hunter (using What of Havoc from Cheeky's Spreadsheet as the baseline) the kill comand ability alone still provides ~80 theoretical DPS. Is there really any benefit to not using this ability? I'm not out to flame or troll anybody, but there are more than enough "huntards" in the game. The last thing we need is young hunters coming to EJ forums for advice, and walking away with information that is less than accurate. Edit: It's worth mentioning that Gruknok is absolutely correct about the 2.9 speed weapon. Get a slower weapon (Heroic SV, Exalted Thrallmar, Attumen, ZA) and use a 1:1.5 shot rotation and you should see a DPS boost. |
not sure about the spaces in reset=3, wrote the macro not pasted it so it might be good to change it to reset=3. but i dont believe spaces can change anything other than the character count in the macro.
3 has nothing to do with the lenght of the macro. Never had any problems with arcane or multi beeing on cooldown after stoping the spam to move or do something else.
After feign, mend or scorpid sting you still need to manualy finish the sequence, if you dont want the global cooldown and the macro to mess up the rotation and while manualy doing the rest of the shots the macro resets and when multishot is reached in the sequence its up again.
The closest what can happen is:
|--------------macroed----------------| |-------------------------manual-------------------
auto->steady->multi->auto->steady->mend(or what ever is needed)->auto->steady-
-----------------------||----------------------------macro--------------------------...
>arcane->auto->steady->auto->steady->multi(ready just before its needed)...
Multi is ready because 3 delayed autoshot swings passed + 1 steady shot cast till the multi is needed to be up again.
Kill command has very low DPM for Survival hunters and especialy MM and in my oppinion isnt worth using unless its in the BM macro which i use when rapid fire or bloodlust is up. In the 1:1.5 rotation it will most likely will cause even higher autoshot clipping. So the theoretical KC dps is just traded for autoshot DPS.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/19/07 at 3:51 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Laif
It's not really a good idea to include Multi-Shot in a long shot rotation macro. Why?
"Oops, my Multi-Shot broke that sheep." "Oops, I pulled aggro on some of Morogrim's Murlocs." etc. Any situation where you have the potential to shoot multiple mobs and don't have complete control over when Multi-Shot does or doesn't fire is a bad situation. |
Ofc you dont want to use the macro on trash but who cares about dps there.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/19/07 at 3:11 PM.
Kamaa,
With your post in mind wouldn't it be better if you are a button smasher like myself to use...
This way you get the Kill Command if it's up during your smashing as well? I don't use a /castsequence macro for my rotation I manually weave in the Arcane and Multi Shots... but I never considering making a macro like you did. Anyways, made me think these would be even better for my case.
With your post in mind wouldn't it be better if you are a button smasher like myself to use...
#showtooltip Multi-Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Multi-Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() #showtooltip Arcane Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=6 Auto Shot, Arcane Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Thanks for the feedback on the shot rotation.
Gurk and Kamaa... I have the wrathtide (heroic SV) bow in my bank. I had been messing with Cheeky's spreadsheet and saw some weird results on the shot rotations, well weird to me as I couldn't quite figure how a lower rated weapon gave me more dps. I've since dug through the forums and found some clarification on that (thanks again Cheeky) so i'll rework that back into my gear until I can get something from ZA/TK or by some miracle get Prince to drop that stupid bow. The arena bow looks like a good option as well, so I'll keep my eyes on that as an alternative as well.
Who cares about dps on trash... exactly, I dont. Trash are usually dead before you can pop a trinket most times so for me there is nothing wrong with button smashing at that point. What I'm really looking for is to get max dps on a boss so they go down faster. Nothing frustrates me more than getting them to 1-2% and then wipe because we just couldn't get the extra dps out. I can't help but think that if I could have gotten that extra 100-200 extra dps on him for the entire fight then it would be screenshot time, not run back and do it again time.
Working the 1.15 shot rotation without multi looks fine, a lot smoother with less clipping (it seems). I can't ignore the value of a good multi-shot though as its single target damage is still significantly higher than a steady shot. Working up a shot rotation without multi-shot I got -
/castsequence reset=6 auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] kill command
If thats wrong please let me know. I'd love to have it working for tonight as we're supposed to be hitting a 25man.
If Kill command does not affect the gcd why would it cause auto shot clipping?
Gurk and Kamaa... I have the wrathtide (heroic SV) bow in my bank. I had been messing with Cheeky's spreadsheet and saw some weird results on the shot rotations, well weird to me as I couldn't quite figure how a lower rated weapon gave me more dps. I've since dug through the forums and found some clarification on that (thanks again Cheeky) so i'll rework that back into my gear until I can get something from ZA/TK or by some miracle get Prince to drop that stupid bow. The arena bow looks like a good option as well, so I'll keep my eyes on that as an alternative as well.
Who cares about dps on trash... exactly, I dont. Trash are usually dead before you can pop a trinket most times so for me there is nothing wrong with button smashing at that point. What I'm really looking for is to get max dps on a boss so they go down faster. Nothing frustrates me more than getting them to 1-2% and then wipe because we just couldn't get the extra dps out. I can't help but think that if I could have gotten that extra 100-200 extra dps on him for the entire fight then it would be screenshot time, not run back and do it again time.
Working the 1.15 shot rotation without multi looks fine, a lot smoother with less clipping (it seems). I can't ignore the value of a good multi-shot though as its single target damage is still significantly higher than a steady shot. Working up a shot rotation without multi-shot I got -
/castsequence reset=6 auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] kill command
If thats wrong please let me know. I'd love to have it working for tonight as we're supposed to be hitting a 25man.
If Kill command does not affect the gcd why would it cause auto shot clipping?
Last edited by Talrunya : 12/19/07 at 3:14 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Talrunya if you have troubles with 1:1.5 rotation recommend trying 4/5 imp arcane build with 3.00 speed weapon or 5/5 imp arcane with 2.9.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
and /castsequence reset=3 auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot
It has lower cliping on mediocre latency is abit more mana efficient than with multi rank 6 and isnt that complicated.
But It requires curse of shadows to be viable. And doesnt have the ability to be downranked for extra mana efficiency like you could do with multi rank 1.
Just leave the imp arcane shot talents not spend and go to dr boom. And spam the macro. You should notice that when you should shoot arcane its not ready. Put talents in imp arcane shot one by one till you lower the cooldown of arcane shot to a propper lvl.
With curse of shadows i get ~10 dps drop on the spreadsheet when switching from full 1:1.5 rotation with multi and arcane with
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
to the one ive just mentioned with
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
Thats with 672 penetration. So if you have much less or 0 the arcane build should work fine.
In practice you wont notice the diference because its much easier to manage so the 10 dps most likely come back with a bonus once you do everything properly, when paying more attenction on the fight rather than rotation.
About the kill command ive noticed reports of it clipping autoshots and experience strange anomalies myself, Mostly when pet is moving i think. Gonna test it again tonight but still it has very low DPM and high miss chance.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
and /castsequence reset=3 auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot
It has lower cliping on mediocre latency is abit more mana efficient than with multi rank 6 and isnt that complicated.
But It requires curse of shadows to be viable. And doesnt have the ability to be downranked for extra mana efficiency like you could do with multi rank 1.
Just leave the imp arcane shot talents not spend and go to dr boom. And spam the macro. You should notice that when you should shoot arcane its not ready. Put talents in imp arcane shot one by one till you lower the cooldown of arcane shot to a propper lvl.
With curse of shadows i get ~10 dps drop on the spreadsheet when switching from full 1:1.5 rotation with multi and arcane with
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
to the one ive just mentioned with
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
Thats with 672 penetration. So if you have much less or 0 the arcane build should work fine.
In practice you wont notice the diference because its much easier to manage so the 10 dps most likely come back with a bonus once you do everything properly, when paying more attenction on the fight rather than rotation.
About the kill command ive noticed reports of it clipping autoshots and experience strange anomalies myself, Mostly when pet is moving i think. Gonna test it again tonight but still it has very low DPM and high miss chance.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/19/07 at 3:48 PM.
*sigh*
Talrunya
I give up. Yes your macro is wrong. I've already provided you with the macro you're asking for. KC does not effect the GCD and for the most part it will not clip your auto shots if you use the macro I posted above. Gruk has been playing his hunter for a long time. For that he should get a cookie. Unfortunately it would seem a majority of his experience comes from before TBC. He can safely be ignored. You're a survival hunter and will therefore crit more than most of us. Use KC at every opportunity unless you are OOM.
Koroishya,
I don't really use arcane shots anymore unless I'm on the run so I wouldn't use that macro, but there is certainly no harm in adding KC to either of the macros.
Talrunya
I give up. Yes your macro is wrong. I've already provided you with the macro you're asking for. KC does not effect the GCD and for the most part it will not clip your auto shots if you use the macro I posted above. Gruk has been playing his hunter for a long time. For that he should get a cookie. Unfortunately it would seem a majority of his experience comes from before TBC. He can safely be ignored. You're a survival hunter and will therefore crit more than most of us. Use KC at every opportunity unless you are OOM.
Koroishya,
I don't really use arcane shots anymore unless I'm on the run so I wouldn't use that macro, but there is certainly no harm in adding KC to either of the macros.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
*sigh*
Talrunya I give up. Yes your macro is wrong. I've already provided you with the macro you're asking for. KC does not effect the GCD and for the most part it will not clip your auto shots if you use the macro I posted above. Gruk has been playing his hunter for a long time. For that he should get a cookie. Unfortunately it would seem a majority of his experience comes from before TBC. He can safely be ignored. You're a survival hunter and will therefore crit more than most of us. Use KC at every opportunity unless you are OOM. Koroishya, I don't really use arcane shots anymore unless I'm on the run so I wouldn't use that macro, but there is certainly no harm in adding KC to either of the macros. |
KC has much lower dpm than any of the shots, it has low crit rate, it has high miss rate, it doesnt triger toth, expose, gftt. There are much better ways than KC to spend the mana as survival.
And yes my macro is wrong because of reset=3 with spaces. The rest of it works just fine.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/19/07 at 5:02 PM.
Numerous survival hunters seem to disagree about KC, for instance (a reply by Zek, since it is unclear in the quote):
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Originally Posted by Sapa
SV Spec. Can I get EW dps gain from our raid.
Picture > 1000 words. http://shrani.si/f/2C/qw/4TVnJfTL/survivalspec.jpg GoA (non improved), BoM (5/5), BoK, LotP, Agi Elixir, Mageblood Elixir, Mana Oil, Warp Burger. 5x Sunder, FF, CoR, CoS, my HM, my EW No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5) With 7700 custom target instead Rage Winterchill DPS drops to 1866. PS. Lurker is a Beast, Trolls +5% damage... (not sure if its in spreadsheet?) |
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
KC has much lower dpm than any of the shots, it has low crit rate, it has high miss rate, it doesnt triger toth, expose, gftt. There are much better ways than KC to spend the mana as survival.
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Escort,
From reading posts here, people who don't use macros to fire their shots are able to eek out a little more dps than those of us who do use macros. The ammount of DPS gained by manual weaving increases as client side lag increases. People who macro their shot rotation do have one minor advantage in that they can easily send multiple commands at once. (ie steady/kc, or multi/kc, or arcane/kc) Unless I'm mistaken Zek is a manual weaver. He says using KC is unrealistic in his shot rotation, and if he's manually weaving every one of his shots, that is probably true. For anybody using a macro there is no reason not to use KC. The benefits are reflected quite obviously in Cheeky's spreadsheet.
If Zek reads this later perhaps he'd be willing to clear it up for us.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
None of these are relevant unless you are going OOM. I already said you should use KC unless you are going OOM. What exactly are you arguing?
Escort, From reading posts here, people who don't use macros to fire their shots are able to eek out a little more dps than those of us who do use macros. The ammount of DPS gained by manual weaving increases as client side lag increases. People who macro their shot rotation do have one minor advantage in that they can easily send multiple commands at once. (ie steady/kc, or multi/kc, or arcane/kc) Unless I'm mistaken Zek is a manual weaver. He says using KC is unrealistic in his shot rotation, and if he's manually weaving every one of his shots, that is probably true. For anybody using a macro there is no reason not to use KC. The benefits are reflected quite obviously in Cheeky's spreadsheet. If Zek reads this later perhaps he'd be willing to clear it up for us. |
But id say group buffs access determine wether you can afford that kind of DPM or not.
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/19/07 at 6:14 PM.
Thanks for feedback everyone. Kamaa, will work with what you posted.
Picture worth are worth a thousand words indeed.
Manual vs macro...hmmm.
Picture worth are worth a thousand words indeed.
Manual vs macro...hmmm.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Ok. Ill stick with scorpid sting instead.
But id say group buffs access determine wether you can afford that kind of DPM or not. |
As for using scorpid sting instead of KC. You can use them both, at the exact same time. Mana is the only limiting factor.
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
Yeah. It really depends on what kind of support you're getting from your guild and your raid design. I joined a guild that had little to no faith in hunters. I've slowly managed to turn this around and now myself and the SV hunter in the guild are often between 1-5 on the meters. Our raid design doesn't really allow for us to be in a melee group or even to get a shaman for agi. If we're in with a shaman he's almost guaranteed to be dropping WoA for the primarily caster group. One thing that we do have top priority on is a shadow priest. With a spriest and chain potting I never go OOM and am able to maintain max DPS. The same can be said of our SV hunter who often does similar damage as I do depending on the fight. (He excels in fights that require a lot of movement.) I am confident without KC he would be lower in DPS.
As for using scorpid sting instead of KC. You can use them both, at the exact same time. Mana is the only limiting factor. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
Last, even for an SV hunter (using What of Havoc from Cheeky's Spreadsheet as the baseline) the kill comand ability alone still provides ~80 theoretical DPS. Is there really any benefit to not using this ability?
I'm not out to flame or troll anybody, but there are more than enough "huntards" in the game. The last thing we need is young hunters coming to EJ forums for advice, and walking away with information that is less than accurate. |
1. What happens with mana usage if you do 1:1.5 + KC when on CD.?
You run out faster. Witch can be serious problem before you get geared up and got used to managing you mana pool.
2. What happens with 1:1.5 rotation if you use KC?
You will most likely mess it up (doing less damage). Especially if you macro KC and in such case 1. (up) will happen even faster.
3. Is there any possible way to use KC as Survival with 1:1.5 rotation?
Yes. 1:1.5 has openings where KC could be used. (BUT same GDC opening is better used on MendPet, Hunters Mark, Trinket/Racial Activation, Scorpid Sting and now even Serpent Sting)
4. How frequent are this "openings"?
From experience once or twice per 20 seconds. Depends on how "perfect" execution of rotation you have, coupled with your lag and reaction time. Most times its once for me.
It looks liker: steady+multi, auto, steady, auto, steady+arcane, auto, steady+opening, auto, steady...
5. Is Cheeky's Spreadsheet correct on theoretical KC damage gain for Survival(any) hunters.
No. Because it would be modeling hell. Entire 1:1.5 rotation is "chaotic". So Cheeky has modeled KC with no GDC. Just frequency based on your critical hits (added in v12 of spreadsheet). And that is causing KC to show bigger DPS gain than actual.
For young hunters to try 1:1.5 with KC... Sure TRY, maybe they figure out something new (like 4xt3.5 set bonus)
But I recommend that they do it after they have played with 1:1.5 rotation for some time.
Edit: I say GDC for KC, because it's approximately how much it costs you (KC delays auto).
And I remembered, some people had some success with "auto. KC/Steady. auto. KC/Steady+Arcane, auto..." witch is still unexplored by me. Mostly because I use "Auto shot, Steady Shot + LB" macro and weave all other things manually.
Last edited by Sapa : 12/20/07 at 9:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
Next few answers are my personal observations and should not be taken as facts. (apart from how KC is modeled in spreadsheet).
1. What happens with mana usage if you do 1:1.5 + KC when on CD.? You run out faster. Witch can be serious problem before you get geared up and got used to managing you mana pool. 2. What happens with 1:1.5 rotation if you use KC? You will most likely mess it up (doing less damage). Especially if you macro KC and in such case 1. (up) will happen even faster. 3. Is there any possible way to use KC as Survival with 1:1.5 rotation? Yes. 1:1.5 has openings where KC could be used. (BUT same GDC opening is better used on MendPet, Hunters Mark, Trinket/Racial Activation, Scorpid Sting and now even Serpent Sting) 4. How frequent are this "openings"? From experience once or twice per 20 seconds. Depends on how "perfect" execution of rotation you have, coupled with your lag and reaction time. Most times its once for me. It looks liker: steady+multi, auto, steady, auto, steady+arcane, auto, steady+opening, auto, steady... 5. Is Cheeky's Spreadsheet correct on theoretical KC damage gain for Survival(any) hunters. No. Because it would be modeling hell. Entire 1:1.5 rotation is "chaotic". So Cheeky has modeled KC with no GDC. Just frequency based on your critical hits (added in v12 of spreadsheet). And that is causing KC to show bigger DPS gain than actual. For young hunters to try 1:1.5 with KC... Sure TRY, maybe they figure out something new (like 4xt3.5 set bonus) But I recommend that they do it after they have played with 1:1.5 rotation for some time. Edit: I say GDC for KC, because it's approximately how much it costs you (KC delays auto). And I remembered, some people had some success with "auto. KC/Steady. auto. KC/Steady+Arcane, auto..." witch is still unexplored by me. Mostly because I use "Auto shot, Steady Shot + LB" macro and weave all other things manually. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
KC can be used in 1:1.5 if you do use manual rotation (not castsequence) witn macro that contains just KC+steady, but even then I doubt it's mana effectiveness. Since 2.3 I am weaving shots manually so I might try my BM macro with survival spec too.
Macro that I use as BM for KC+Steady:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
#show Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
I do not use /castsequence since 2.3 because it often jams. Manual weaving took time to get used to(both 1:1, 1:1.5), but I am up to my usual DPS again.
Edit : Also with castsequence about half time KC gets used after steady, thus delaying next auto. Macro I posted do not delay auto, but this macro is not spammable, you have to time it right manually.
Macro that I use as BM for KC+Steady:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
#show Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
I do not use /castsequence since 2.3 because it often jams. Manual weaving took time to get used to(both 1:1, 1:1.5), but I am up to my usual DPS again.
Edit : Also with castsequence about half time KC gets used after steady, thus delaying next auto. Macro I posted do not delay auto, but this macro is not spammable, you have to time it right manually.
Last edited by Hunterlin : 12/31/07 at 1:48 PM. Reason: Edited to add #show and #showtooltip to macro.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Survival hunter getting spriest too?
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Zek,
As I've said several times before, and based on the things you posted, I continue to agree that KC is a valuable tool to any hunter as long as you can use it without going OOM. Cheeky's spread sheet does not give KC a GCD for one very simple reason. It does not have a GCD. If you're trying to sneak in KC's in between shots then with a seperate keybind then I suspect it will slow down your DPS. People keep talking about trading one shot or another for KC. Unless mana is the primary concern, this is not neccessary.
You can use KC in conjunction with ANY shot other than auto shot. Auto shot is the only shot that is delayed by KC. If you use KC in conjunction with any other shot you have the full 1.5s you would normally have from the GCD. No more. No less. Auto shot will not be delayed.
Does KC offer as much DPS as Cheeky's spreadsheet suggests? No. If you used KC every time it was up, you would indeed delay your auto shots on occasion. With bad luck you could end up delaying near half of them. However if you are using intelligent macros and keybinds that allow you to use KC in conjunction with your other specials and avoid clipping auto shot, KC should provide a marginal DPS upgrade.
I challenge Zek and other 1:1.5 to give it a whirl. A macro similar to Hunterlin's post is a good show of a macro that shouldn't clip auto shot. You could even create a macro for all of the special shots used in your rotation.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Orly? Your experience in TBC as hunter isnt that great either. couple thousands rep with t6 factions and you think youve gone through everything?
KC has much lower dpm than any of the shots, it has low crit rate, it has high miss rate, it doesnt triger toth, expose, gftt. There are much better ways than KC to spend the mana as survival. And yes my macro is wrong because of reset=3 with spaces. The rest of it works just fine. |
Maybe you can find some empirical evidence to back up your claim?
There's some debate about the chosen build I have put together in the "[Hunter] Help me" thread here on EJ. I was wondering if anyone over here in this world that doesn't watch that thread could weigh in.
The important part starts here: [Hunter]Help me please
I'd like to make sure that I don't misrepresent what I have gleamed from this thread, and steer newer hunters down a bad path, as I have primarily been a BM hunter in the past.
The important part starts here: [Hunter]Help me please
I'd like to make sure that I don't misrepresent what I have gleamed from this thread, and steer newer hunters down a bad path, as I have primarily been a BM hunter in the past.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
3. Is there any possible way to use KC as Survival with 1:1.5 rotation?
Yes. 1:1.5 has openings where KC could be used. (BUT same GDC opening is better used on MendPet, Hunters Mark, Trinket/Racial Activation, Scorpid Sting and now even Serpent Sting) |
0.00 Auto
0.00 Steady
1.50 Arcane
2.61 Auto (still on Arcane GCD)
2.61 KC (still on Arcane GCD)
3.00 Steady
5.22 Auto
Note that this rotation roughly corresponds to the cooldown of KC which is 5s. Perfect! The only problem is how to actually execute this rotation. The combination of the fact that it's not always available (so you can't use it in a castsequence) but it will delay auto (so you can't /cast it in the same macro as your castsequence) means that if you want to do optimal DPS you will have to fire at least the KC manually.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
Edit: I say GDC for KC, because it's approximately how much it costs you (KC delays auto).
And I remembered, some people had some success with "auto. KC/Steady. auto. KC/Steady+Arcane, auto..." witch is still unexplored by me. Mostly because I use "Auto shot, Steady Shot + LB" macro and weave all other things manually. |
I rarely use kill command. If it didn't delay auto shot or could be used while casting steady shot it might be more useful. Or if it cost no mana I'd work harder to find a place for it.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
As of 2.3 KC no longer requires or triggers the GCD. So if you can afford the mana it is free DPS. You just need to be careful not to do it at a time where it will clip autoshot. Here is an example:
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Originally Posted by ugla
I believe they intended to say that kill command delays auto shot, as far as I know the normal 0.5 seconds most abilities delay auto shot by.
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I would contend that linking KC with Arcane or Multishot is the worst possible place because Auto shot follows immediately after these shots. Thus any delay in hitting KC will delay your Auto shot.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
I would contend that linking KC with Arcane or Multishot is the worst possible place because Auto shot follows immediately after these shots. Thus any delay in hitting KC will delay your Auto shot.
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If you manually weave, a macro that /cast Kill Command before the /cast <whatever shot> is extra DPS. I have a macro for arcane, multi, and steady that does nothing but add the /cast Kill Command before the cast of the intended shot.
If you spam a castsequence, yeah, it's not going to work as well. But that's one of the tradeoffs you take for reducing your interaction to spamming a button--it's less precise.
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Originally Posted by Tsook
KC delays auto shot by exactly as much as arcane shot and multi shot delays auto shot. Macroing them together has no net effect on your auto shot delay.
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I was looking for some help, hoping to find someone who can answer a question who has a better grasp on how macros work than I do. What happens if, to address the KC "dilemma", we put KC in between steady-multi and steady-arcane in the macro (for those of us who macro). My questions being, what happens to the macro when KC comes up if it is not ready for use? Does the macro pause and wait for it? Break completely? etc... Also, (I just thought about it) is it possible to insert the "/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command" into the cast sequence in some way, so that it only activated between steady-->Multi/Arcane if KC was actually available?
Thanks for any help,
Escort
Thanks for any help,
Escort
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Originally Posted by Escort
I was looking for some help, hoping to find someone who can answer a question who has a better grasp on how macros work than I do. What happens if, to address the KC "dilemma", we put KC in between steady-multi and steady-arcane in the macro (for those of us who macro). My questions being, what happens to the macro when KC comes up if it is not ready for use? Does the macro pause and wait for it? Break completely? etc... Also, (I just thought about it) is it possible to insert the "/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command" into the cast sequence in some way, so that it only activated between steady-->Multi/Arcane if KC was actually available?
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Unfortunately neither of these ideas will work quite like you might hope. Inserting KC between shots will function exactly as you feared and lock the macro in place until KC is available. As for inserting kill command into the cast sequence, this too will not work if you want just one macro. However, if you manually weave your shots, or perhaps just your arcane shot then you can do a macro that will allow to you use KC almost every time it's up. (Arcane has 6s CD and KC 5s if I recall correctly.)
#showtooltip Arcane Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /cast Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
Just tested it, works with just single press. I was a bit in doubt so did test.
Some rare times it may require two presses, but I think that it may require two presses is when your GCD is still cooling. First press will do KC, second time you need to press after GCD is over to shoot Steady.
(Just did remembered rare times from last raid when steady did not start with single press, so just speculating why. May be it happened just 1% times, but may happen)
/cast Steady Shot
Just tested it, works with just single press. I was a bit in doubt so did test.
Some rare times it may require two presses, but I think that it may require two presses is when your GCD is still cooling. First press will do KC, second time you need to press after GCD is over to shoot Steady.
(Just did remembered rare times from last raid when steady did not start with single press, so just speculating why. May be it happened just 1% times, but may happen)
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Maybe I'm missing something here. Is there any way to macro KC and Arcane shot such that one button press casts both? I was under the impression this required two button presses. Thus, if you have to press it twice and you have 0.5s until your Auto Shot, you've just delayed your Auto by the time it takes between those two presses.
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Here's my macros for manual weaving:
MACRO 16777277 " " INV_Misc_QuestionMark
#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Arcane Shot
END
MACRO 16777278 " " INV_Misc_QuestionMark
#showtooltip Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Multi-Shot
END
MACRO 16777273 " " INV_Misc_QuestionMark
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
I don't do all the complicated checks for if the pet is alive or any of that stuff. If the pet is dead or unsummoned pettarget is null. This also means if I've got my pet on passive he doesn't go charging off to execute that Kill Command. If he's attacking something, he does Kill Command on it -- even if I'm attacking something else.
Just as proof of concept, here's my other macro that I got to take a lot of /stopcasting calls out of when 2.3 launched:
MACRO 16777246 "Victory" Ability_Creature_Cursed_04
#showtooltip
/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast Berserking(Racial)
/cast Rapid Fire
/use 14
/use [button:2] 13
END
Speaking of macros has anyone been on the PTR today. My normal SS-Autoshot macro isnt work well at all.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show()
It seems to be hanging up the autshots, i think there was an issue during 2.3 PTR with autoshot being toggled on and off
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show()
It seems to be hanging up the autshots, i think there was an issue during 2.3 PTR with autoshot being toggled on and off
You may try castsequence like this on PTR
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
I am not on PTR myself so can not test it.
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
I am not on PTR myself so can not test it.
Yeah, read the PTR patch notes. If you don't add an exclamation mark (!) before Auto Shot, it will then become a toggle.
The real question is: do macros still "skip" and "hang" (pretty much making them unusable) when !Auto Shot is involved?
There is no issues with the macro when placing a ! before the autoshot. I have another question as i was working on a couple different specs on the PTR. How important do you guys place Imp arcane shot when running a SV spec. When running some test 5/5 Imp AS in a 1/1.5 rotation did every good DPS. SV out DPS your standard MM and BM specs on Dr.Boom but not being able to us Multishot hurts MM by a good bit. Tomorrow i will work in a 5/20/36 and a 0/25/36(with and without 5/5 Imp AS). It is hard to get a real feel for DPS on Dr.Boom because it dont use trinkets or Rapid shot for any build and use BW when testing BM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Delete please.
Last edited by CSM-EH : 12/23/07 at 9:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaladian
There is no issues with the macro when placing a ! before the autoshot. I have another question as i was working on a couple different specs on the PTR. How important do you guys place Imp arcane shot when running a SV spec. When running some test 5/5 Imp AS in a 1/1.5 rotation did every good DPS. SV out DPS your standard MM and BM specs on Dr.Boom but not being able to us Multishot hurts MM by a good bit. Tomorrow i will work in a 5/20/36 and a 0/25/36(with and without 5/5 Imp AS). It is hard to get a real feel for DPS on Dr.Boom because it dont use trinkets or Rapid shot for any build and use BW when testing BM.
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On Dr. Boom SV will typically out DPS a BM spec and should be close to MM or slightly better. However, when you figure in the pet damage a BM spec hunter will typically win the DPS war. I have 1 pt in Improved Arcane only to help with any lag issues. If I was into more PvP I would spec 5/5 but I dont see a huge need for more points than 1.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kamaa
I challenge Zek and other 1:1.5 to give it a whirl. A macro similar to Hunterlin's post is a good show of a macro that shouldn't clip auto shot. You could even create a macro for all of the special shots used in your rotation.
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Didn't watch whole Fraps or analyzed shot frequency on WWS yet.
Always had Shaman in group for GoA, Spring, Mana Tide. Used MoC + Alchemy Stone. Had 70ms / 30 or 60
fps(30=frapsing). Pet was Wind Serpent without Cobra Reflexes.
Macros used:
1. Castsequence macro for Auto, Steady + LB
2. castrandom KC + cast Arcane
3. castrandom KC + cast Multi-Shot
4. castrandom KC + cast Scorpid Sting
Things I dare to say without even looking at WWS/Fraps.
* Was using Viper more
* Drank more Fel Mana pots.
* Used Scorpid Sting less (far less)
Bigger mana issues... Without SP group adding KC to rotation requires near perfect mana managment via consumables. And short fights.
* Clobbered more shots
It's observable with eye. KC sometimes "lags", it looks like macro button activates twice. I also had more "macro stuck" moments on primary macro.
Rough DPS numbers from yesterday Council (recount data, no wws yet).
Pet DPS = ~154 (quite normal Survival pet DPS)
65% was white = ~100 dps
18% was LB (much resisted due 250 chromatic aura) = ~28 dps
17% was KC (Shatterer has "low" 6200armor (7440 when he has devotion aura), had 5xsunder, FF(30-40% uptime) and CoR up) = ~26 dps
If you are willing to include KC in your 1:1.5 rotation as Survival for +1/4 of your pet white dps well you be the judge.
To be 100% sure I plan to do some more testing (whole Hyall, BT up to RoS).
I don't see me using it anywhere but on RoS as Survival for now. It's simply to much mana.
Well maybe I'm doing something wrong. Any suggestions?
Edit:
Best result on Council (KC = 33 dps)
PocketSnake - WWS
Last edited by Sapa : 12/25/07 at 6:07 AM.
Thanks for that Zek. Let us know when you have come to your final conclusions. Without a shadow priest it looks like it's a complete waste. It may be too problematic even with a shadow priest if it's breaking your shot rotation. In theory it should not break shot rotation, but if in practice it's less DPS then obviously it shouldn't be used.
With any luck patch 2.3.2 will come soon, and hopefully it will fix the broken macros.
With any luck patch 2.3.2 will come soon, and hopefully it will fix the broken macros.
I did went away from /castsequence after 2.3 exactly because was frustated with macro getting stuck when weaving in Arcane or Multi.
I do all shots manually for 1:1.5 rotation, except Kill Command.
I did not used Kill Command while specced Survival for raids, just as BM. Currently with MM PvP spec for raid holidays, it is hard to keep enough mana when just farming with Viper... If I have to choose to use 1:1 steady rotation+KC as MM or 1:1.5, second is better.
On other hand in PvP I am glad that I have macroed it for max dps.
Probably kill command will stay just for BM spec or hybrid/MM with talents in focused fire.
I do all shots manually for 1:1.5 rotation, except Kill Command.
I did not used Kill Command while specced Survival for raids, just as BM. Currently with MM PvP spec for raid holidays, it is hard to keep enough mana when just farming with Viper... If I have to choose to use 1:1 steady rotation+KC as MM or 1:1.5, second is better.
On other hand in PvP I am glad that I have macroed it for max dps.
Probably kill command will stay just for BM spec or hybrid/MM with talents in focused fire.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Koroshiya
Yeah I am going to have to disagree with you man. I just switched from a BM hunter to a Survival hunter and already I can tell you if KC was worth it in BM, DPM-wise, it's worth it in Survival. Survival mana is like an endless pool compared to that of a BM hunter. As far as the damage since some of my crit rate carries through to my pet and I have 15% more crit as a survival hunter I am finding the damage from using it is is well worth it.
Maybe you can find some empirical evidence to back up your claim? |
10% KC crits with LotP, 28% miss rate,
WWS
again ~10% crited with LotP, 20% miss.
WWS
0 crits. 28% missed.
WWS
0 crits, very low damage in caster group. Low miss rate this time.
note: all these done with KC only when trinket is popped, so the average damage will get even lower if using it all the time. That is enough for me atleast.
I believe cheekys spreadsheed has it accurate enough to judge. Rank 1 multishot will have 5 times higher dpm than KC in the spreadsheet, even higher than steady. Not to mention expose and GftT triggering. Also dont know if TotH is already counted when calculating the final DPM value. Even arcane shot has 50% more DPM on fully sundered mobs. Arcane shot DPM will get much higher if there are random adds in the encounter which most likely have much higher armor.
Endless survival mana? 1:1 rotation maybe?
Last edited by Gruknok : 12/27/07 at 3:04 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Long time reader first time poster.
Searched from start too finish in this thread and have heard it mentioned before, it seems like there is no officially agreed upon full cycle shot rotation macro, I have most macros listed in the last 30+ pages in my macro book in game and I have used most all of them and I think
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot(rank 6), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Has worked out best for me but would really like reassurance from other raiding survival hunters that this is best and if not what are our top survival hunters using as macros these days?
The World of Warcraft Armory
If this has been recently addressed feel free too delete this post
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot(rank 6), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Has worked out best for me but would really like reassurance from other raiding survival hunters that this is best and if not what are our top survival hunters using as macros these days?
The World of Warcraft Armory
If this has been recently addressed feel free too delete this post
Last edited by Koto : 12/29/07 at 6:14 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Koto
Searched from start too finish in this thread and have heard it mentioned before, it seems like there is no officially agreed upon full cycle shot rotation macro, I have most macros listed in the last 30+ pages in my macro book in game and I have used most all of them and I think
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot(rank 6), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show() Has worked out best for me but would really like reassurance from other raiding survival hunters that this is best and if not what are our top survival hunters using as macros these days? The World of Warcraft Armory If this has been recently addressed feel free too delete this post |
Now I'm just theorycrafting, but if you were to put the 3 points you have in Barrage into 3/5 Arcane shot instead, you will only have 1 Steady shot > Auto shot (1:1) per ~12 seconds because of the extra Arcane shot you were able to weave into your rotation.
That's more ideal, isn't it?
Now, I was just messing with some numbers, and I could be wrong. The main idea I'm trying to confirm is that 3/5 Imp Arcane Shot provides you with more DPS potential than 3/3 Barrage.
Going by a WWS report from Gorefiend, if an average Arcane shot hits for 949, and an average Multi-shot is 1097...
949 extra dmg per ~12 seconds from 3/5 Imp Arcane Shot.
vs
131.64 extra dmg from Multi-shot with 3/3 Barrage every 10 seconds.
Imp Arcane shot wins, right ?
Last edited by intrepidos : 12/29/07 at 7:14 PM.
Yeah I have noticed it for sure, I just always thought 3/3 imp barrage was better then 3/5 imp arc but honestly I never really gave much thought to it after that, You are probably rite. I will have too try it out, thanks for the tip.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by intrepidos
That is a nice macro. I was trying it out, and then I noticed that it wasn't casting Arcane shot when it was available. I don't know if you noticed or not, and you don't need a macro to realize it. If you time your shots manually as survival, or decide to use a macro like this, and do not have points into Imp Arcane Shot. You will notice that you are forced to use Steady shot > Auto shot twice in a row because of cooldowns on Multi-shot and Arcane shot. This is just a guess, but I think this happens about every 12 seconds.
Now I'm just theorycrafting, but if you were to put the 3 points you have in Barrage into 3/5 Arcane shot instead, you will only have 1 Steady shot > Auto shot (1:1) per ~12 seconds because of the extra Arcane shot you were able to weave into your rotation. That's more ideal, isn't it? Now, I was just messing with some numbers, and I could be wrong. The main idea I'm trying to confirm is that 3/5 Imp Arcane Shot provides you with more DPS potential than 3/3 Barrage. Going by a WWS report from Gorefiend, if an average Arcane shot hits for 949, and an average Multi-shot is 1097... 949 extra dmg per ~12 seconds from 3/5 Imp Arcane Shot. vs 131.64 extra dmg from Multi-shot with 3/3 Barrage every 10 seconds. Imp Arcane shot wins, right ? |
Theres nothing wrong with the arcane shot timing either. It is not supposed to be used every time its ready. It is used when the global cooldown allows the additional shot without clipping. Thats about every 11-13 secs for both arcane and multi depending on someones latency and fps. Thats why the special shots are used after every second steady shot. After lets say multi shot global cooldown delays the next steady shot so that its close to clipping the autoshot after it or even is clipping at higher latencies.
You can do auto->steady->arcane->auto->steady->multi->auto->steady->arcane->auto->steady even without points in imp arcane. The gap betwean the arcane shots is more than 6 secs because of the huge clipping which is caused by global cooldown. It greatly decreases DPM and is barely a dps buff. The points in the arcane only reduce 1 out of 4 autoshots clipping.
Its possible that imp arcane will win if you go 4 or 5 points in it and switch to 1:1.5 rotation with only arcane shots after every second steady. Depends on your latency and fps and requires curse of shadows.
Last edited by Gruknok : 01/02/08 at 3:52 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
If you mean auto->steady->auto->steady->auto->steady->multi then no, it never happens because of cooldowns. Possibly because of inserted scorpid sting or smth, but never caused by multi or arcane cooldown. both multi and arcane are used oncve every ~12 secs or so so its ready whenever its needed.
Theres nothing wrong with the arcane shot timing either. It is not supposed to be used every time its ready. It is used when the global cooldown allows the additional shot without clipping. Thats about every 11-13 secs for both arcane and multi depending on someones latency and fps. Thats why the special shots are used after every second steady shot. After lets say multi shot global cooldown delays the next steady shot so that its close to clipping the autoshot after it or even is clipping at higher latencies. You can do auto->steady->arcane->auto->steady->multi->auto->steady->arcane->auto->steady even without points in imp arcane. The gap betwean the arcane shots is more than 6 secs because of the huge clipping which is caused by global cooldown. It greatly decreases DPM and is barely a dps buff. The points in the arcane only reduce 1 out of 4 autoshots clipping. Its possible that imp arcane will win if you go 4 or 5 points in it and switch to 1:1.5 rotation with only arcane shots after every second steady. Depends on your latency and fps and requires curse of shadows. |
Last edited by intrepidos : 12/30/07 at 11:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by intrepidos
You may have misunderstood. I was just saying that if you can fire an arcane shot after a steady shot without clipping your autoshot, why wouldn't you? Also, you don't need 4/5+ Imp Arcane Shot to maintain a 1:1.5 shot rotation and to get that extra Arcane shot in every 4 Auto-shots or so. I haven't tried 2/5 Imp Arcane shot yet., but 3/5 seems to do the job nonetheless.
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You're right ! I forgot to mention bow speed.
BM hunter here switching to Survival.
Used a 1:1 w/KC macro on a G15
My survival macro now is:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I ran Survival w/ this macro on Illidan this evening.
This was my shot chart after the fight -
Auto Shots - 97
Steady Shots - 100
Arcane Shot - 50
Multi-Shot - 24
Kill Commands -17
My pet died extremely early because I was more intested in watching my combat text then his life.
Aside from losing 3 Auto-Shots to my Steady Shots that 1:1.5 looks to be pretty solid yeah? Can I have this macro written to be more beneficial?
I also used Rapid Fire twice and a Heroism.
I've read through these pages - There are alot of things in regards to playing the Survival hunter that are not yet written into stone.
Here are my questions regarding this spec -
KC - What is the problem with using this exactly? For the short period of time the pet was alive the shot rotation was still correct. If it was right for the first 20% of the boss' life, the macro is gonna work for the other 80%? Based off the information above, would taking KC off my macro increase the numbers of shots I fire during the battle?
Haste - I took off my DST and replaced it with my Tsunami Talisman after reading through here. I understand that wearing haste items, or a DST is not as good as wearing non-haste specific items and not to build my character around it however, what exactly is wrong with using Rapid Fire on cooldowns, taking Drums of Battle or Heroism? This is free haste. There is nothing really else to use in place of them so wouldn't using them still increase your overall DPS? Yes, you are gonna clip when Arcane and Multi-shot come off cooldown, but when infact Arcane/Multi are on cooldown you would still benefit from the haste since your rotation is Auto/Steady at that point right? Am I incorrect here to say that while Heroism, Drums, Rapid Fire may not have the same effect on your DPS as it does BM, there is still a benefit to using these even if it is for a couple of shots out of the time these buffs are up.
Improved Arcane - I didn't spec into this at all - I'm spec'd 0/20/41 atm and I have 2 into GFTT which is essential using a Wind Serpent and then two into Rapid Killings. What real gains are we talking from switching 2 points out of Rapid Killings and putting them into Improved Arcane Shot?
Master Tactician - This proc'd alot and my crit ran close to 50% which is alot more then when I was BM which was generally around 33-34%. Crits win on the meters, has it been proven yet that going into Barrage or 5/5 Improved Arcane and not getting 5/5 Master Tactician improve DPS?
Used a 1:1 w/KC macro on a G15
My survival macro now is:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I ran Survival w/ this macro on Illidan this evening.
This was my shot chart after the fight -
Auto Shots - 97
Steady Shots - 100
Arcane Shot - 50
Multi-Shot - 24
Kill Commands -17
My pet died extremely early because I was more intested in watching my combat text then his life.
Aside from losing 3 Auto-Shots to my Steady Shots that 1:1.5 looks to be pretty solid yeah? Can I have this macro written to be more beneficial?
I also used Rapid Fire twice and a Heroism.
I've read through these pages - There are alot of things in regards to playing the Survival hunter that are not yet written into stone.
Here are my questions regarding this spec -
KC - What is the problem with using this exactly? For the short period of time the pet was alive the shot rotation was still correct. If it was right for the first 20% of the boss' life, the macro is gonna work for the other 80%? Based off the information above, would taking KC off my macro increase the numbers of shots I fire during the battle?
Haste - I took off my DST and replaced it with my Tsunami Talisman after reading through here. I understand that wearing haste items, or a DST is not as good as wearing non-haste specific items and not to build my character around it however, what exactly is wrong with using Rapid Fire on cooldowns, taking Drums of Battle or Heroism? This is free haste. There is nothing really else to use in place of them so wouldn't using them still increase your overall DPS? Yes, you are gonna clip when Arcane and Multi-shot come off cooldown, but when infact Arcane/Multi are on cooldown you would still benefit from the haste since your rotation is Auto/Steady at that point right? Am I incorrect here to say that while Heroism, Drums, Rapid Fire may not have the same effect on your DPS as it does BM, there is still a benefit to using these even if it is for a couple of shots out of the time these buffs are up.
Improved Arcane - I didn't spec into this at all - I'm spec'd 0/20/41 atm and I have 2 into GFTT which is essential using a Wind Serpent and then two into Rapid Killings. What real gains are we talking from switching 2 points out of Rapid Killings and putting them into Improved Arcane Shot?
Master Tactician - This proc'd alot and my crit ran close to 50% which is alot more then when I was BM which was generally around 33-34%. Crits win on the meters, has it been proven yet that going into Barrage or 5/5 Improved Arcane and not getting 5/5 Master Tactician improve DPS?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by intrepidos
You may have misunderstood. I was just saying that if you can fire an arcane shot after a steady shot without clipping your autoshot, why wouldn't you? Also, you don't need 4/5+ Imp Arcane Shot to maintain a 1:1.5 shot rotation and to get that extra Arcane shot in every 4 Auto-shots or so. I haven't tried 2/5 Imp Arcane shot yet., but 3/5 seems to do the job nonetheless.
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Last edited by Gruknok : 01/02/08 at 3:50 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
BM hunter here switching to Survival.
Used a 1:1 w/KC macro on a G15 My survival macro now is: /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command /castsequence reset=3/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() I ran Survival w/ this macro on Illidan this evening. This was my shot chart after the fight - Auto Shots - 97 Steady Shots - 100 Arcane Shot - 50 Multi-Shot - 24 Kill Commands -17 My pet died extremely early because I was more intested in watching my combat text then his life. Aside from losing 3 Auto-Shots to my Steady Shots that 1:1.5 looks to be pretty solid yeah? Can I have this macro written to be more beneficial? I also used Rapid Fire twice and a Heroism. I've read through these pages - There are alot of things in regards to playing the Survival hunter that are not yet written into stone. Here are my questions regarding this spec - KC - What is the problem with using this exactly? For the short period of time the pet was alive the shot rotation was still correct. If it was right for the first 20% of the boss' life, the macro is gonna work for the other 80%? Based off the information above, would taking KC off my macro increase the numbers of shots I fire during the battle? Haste - I took off my DST and replaced it with my Tsunami Talisman after reading through here. I understand that wearing haste items, or a DST is not as good as wearing non-haste specific items and not to build my character around it however, what exactly is wrong with using Rapid Fire on cooldowns, taking Drums of Battle or Heroism? This is free haste. There is nothing really else to use in place of them so wouldn't using them still increase your overall DPS? Yes, you are gonna clip when Arcane and Multi-shot come off cooldown, but when infact Arcane/Multi are on cooldown you would still benefit from the haste since your rotation is Auto/Steady at that point right? Am I incorrect here to say that while Heroism, Drums, Rapid Fire may not have the same effect on your DPS as it does BM, there is still a benefit to using these even if it is for a couple of shots out of the time these buffs are up. Improved Arcane - I didn't spec into this at all - I'm spec'd 0/20/41 atm and I have 2 into GFTT which is essential using a Wind Serpent and then two into Rapid Killings. What real gains are we talking from switching 2 points out of Rapid Killings and putting them into Improved Arcane Shot? Master Tactician - This proc'd alot and my crit ran close to 50% which is alot more then when I was BM which was generally around 33-34%. Crits win on the meters, has it been proven yet that going into Barrage or 5/5 Improved Arcane and not getting 5/5 Master Tactician improve DPS? |
Rapid fire is fine, it gives enough haste to effectively switch to 1:1, heroism is only efficiency buff for survival in my experience. And the drums might have close to 0 effect or even dps drop if you switch to 1:1 rotation. 1:1.5 shoting rate is very close to beeing the same as 1:1 for BM without any haste items it just costs much more mana. Low amounts of haste will barely give you dps as survival while BM will get noticable buff in shoting rate. 1:1.5 rotation is tight enough with current speeds on PvE wepaons.
The ammount of multi shots in your rotation is abit low id say. Are you using 1:1 steady or priority rotation with rapid fire and heroism?
Last edited by Gruknok : 01/02/08 at 3:53 AM.
No a bit low multi, but arcane is cast to much.
On 100 steadies in ideal rotation there must be 100 auto, 25 arcane, 25 multi ( or just 50 arcane, 0 multi with imp arcane ).
Try to use /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot
or add arcane and multi to rotation manually just after every second steady before auto is shot.
1:1.5 rotation can not be done effectively with single macro by adding shots with /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot.
Timing is very important when to cast them, not just on every CD.
On 100 steadies in ideal rotation there must be 100 auto, 25 arcane, 25 multi ( or just 50 arcane, 0 multi with imp arcane ).
Try to use /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot
or add arcane and multi to rotation manually just after every second steady before auto is shot.
1:1.5 rotation can not be done effectively with single macro by adding shots with /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot.
Timing is very important when to cast them, not just on every CD.
Quick question - as survival spec i know the bottom line is more +Agiility (be it from leather or mail) so....
Shallow-Grave Trousers vs Shifting Camouflage Pants
Thoughts?
[sorry for not knowing how to link armory items so they show in the thread]
Shallow-Grave Trousers vs Shifting Camouflage Pants
Thoughts?
[sorry for not knowing how to link armory items so they show in the thread]
Well, personally, it depends on what you see your Survival build as: a raid AP battery, or a personal DPS spec with mild raid dps buffs. If it's the first, I'd say the leather ones. If it's the latter, go for the mail. Intellect still helps, and armor penetration is currently miles ahead of haste for SV, sadly. Personally, I'd say mail, here.
Also, use [ item] and [ /item] brackets around the item's exact name to insert a link to it, next time
Also, use [ item] and [ /item] brackets around the item's exact name to insert a link to it, next time
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Slightly safer speaking from a clipping stand point would be to put all shots in the castsequence. As a side note you do not really need the Hide()
I run with something like:
#showtooltip Multi-Shot (Just for peace of mind so I know not to use this hot key if CC is around)
/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot (The reset is at 10 so my rotation never hangs if I have to stop and then come back to it; CD on multi shot)
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command (Honestly I see no difference with this as a /cast vs /castrandom I will look into this)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
As someone mentioned above this will depend on your bow speed (also latency to a degree). If your latency isnt bad (under 200 max) a 2.8 bow will work with the 15% quiver... If you sit with more latency better go with a 2.9 or higher (recommended).
PS: This will blow up if you pop rapid or your shammy pops heroism. Switch to 1:1 at that point.
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Slightly safer speaking from a clipping stand point would be to put all shots in the castsequence. As a side note you do not really need the Hide()
I run with something like:
#showtooltip Multi-Shot (Just for peace of mind so I know not to use this hot key if CC is around)
/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot (The reset is at 10 so my rotation never hangs if I have to stop and then come back to it; CD on multi shot)
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command (Honestly I see no difference with this as a /cast vs /castrandom I will look into this)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
As someone mentioned above this will depend on your bow speed (also latency to a degree). If your latency isnt bad (under 200 max) a 2.8 bow will work with the 15% quiver... If you sit with more latency better go with a 2.9 or higher (recommended).
PS: This will blow up if you pop rapid or your shammy pops heroism. Switch to 1:1 at that point.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
My survival macro now is:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command /castsequence reset=3/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() This was my shot chart after the fight - Auto Shots - 97 Steady Shots - 100 Arcane Shot - 50 Multi-Shot - 24 Kill Commands -17 |
And this is with heroism, Rapid Fire you say. You didn't just missed 3 auto shots. You missed at least 19 auto shots.
116 autos - 174 specials = 1:1.5 (perfect rotation in spreadsheet).
In same time/conditions(rapid/heroism) I would do ~25 autoshots more, and ~10 specials less on good night. (122 / 164 = 1:1.34 - jumping to 1:1 when hasted, waiting with arcane/multi for 1 steady cast for better weave) -> Far more damage for less mana. If you provide WWS and I don't cough myself to unconsciousness I can provide better data.
And I didn't count KC to your specials witch I should since in your macro at least half of them count as GDC special.
This is direct result of your macro witch does castsequence with priority KC and 2 castrandoms (witch have higher priority than rest regardless where they are in macro).
So your macro basically is:
1. Cast Arcane if on CD
2. Cast Multi if on CD
3. Cast KC if available
4. Castsequence Steady
1. Cast Arcane if on CD
2. Cast Multi if on CD
3. Cast KC if available
5. Castsequence Auto
And that's bad as you might notice and with it one can expect something like: "Arcane, Multi, KC, Steady, Auto, Arcane, Steady, KC, Auto, Multi" in your logs.
Learn to add Arcane and Multi-Shot manually to rotation (after Steady). You should notice improvement in DPS and in mana management also. And remove KC from castsequence macro, add it to specials if you must use it.
The 2nd Kill Command in the macro I posted is Lightning Breath - I do not have Kill Command written to go off 2x in the macro, I typed it improperly on this thread.
My apologies, my shot chart was a little off once all of the logs were merged -
Illidan - Using the Macro w/ early pet death
Kurkis - WWS
Illidari Council - Early pet death and a vague attempt at manual weaving.
Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council - This is a week before as my previous BM spec w/ 1902 dps.
Wow Web Stats
I guess the question is being a longtime BM spec hunter - 100 Auto Shots : 100 Steady Shots was ideal. If you are adding Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot on cooldowns and still keeping a 1:1 Steady Shot rotation so to speak how is that wrong? To hold onto that rotation and be able to fit Arcanes/Multi-Shots inbetween your Steady and next Auto seems right to me? Running out of mana is the last thing I am worried about.
From what I am reading you are saying that I should always have more Auto-Shots then I should Steady Shots?
I understand being hasted, I should change my rotation - My primary concern right now is ensuring that my shots are being ran in the proper order.
My apologies, my shot chart was a little off once all of the logs were merged -
Illidan - Using the Macro w/ early pet death
Kurkis - WWS
Illidari Council - Early pet death and a vague attempt at manual weaving.
Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council - This is a week before as my previous BM spec w/ 1902 dps.
Wow Web Stats
I guess the question is being a longtime BM spec hunter - 100 Auto Shots : 100 Steady Shots was ideal. If you are adding Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot on cooldowns and still keeping a 1:1 Steady Shot rotation so to speak how is that wrong? To hold onto that rotation and be able to fit Arcanes/Multi-Shots inbetween your Steady and next Auto seems right to me? Running out of mana is the last thing I am worried about.
From what I am reading you are saying that I should always have more Auto-Shots then I should Steady Shots?
I understand being hasted, I should change my rotation - My primary concern right now is ensuring that my shots are being ran in the proper order.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
I guess the question is being a longtime BM spec hunter - 100 Auto Shots : 100 Steady Shots was ideal. If you are adding Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot on cooldowns and still keeping a 1:1 Steady Shot rotation so to speak how is that wrong? To hold onto that rotation and be able to fit Arcanes/Multi-Shots inbetween your Steady and next Auto seems right to me? Running out of mana is the last thing I am worried about.
From what I am reading you are saying that I should always have more Auto-Shots then I should Steady Shots? I understand being hasted, I should change my rotation - My primary concern right now is ensuring that my shots are being ran in the proper order. |
Ideally with survival if you do 100 auto shots, you will have 100 steady shots and either 50 arcane shots or 25 arcane and 25 multi-shots. This is ideal, though, and won't always happen. Many fights have movement components, refreshing Hunter's Mark and Scorpid Sting if the boss hits hard and many other factors will keep you from doing your ideal rotation--but it should still be rather close to the ideal.
| Ideally with survival if you do 100 auto shots, you will have 100 steady shots and either 50 arcane shots or 25 arcane and 25 multi-shots. |
I had 80 Auto Shots, 79 Steady Shots (Close to 1:1) and then I had 37 Arcane Shots and 15 Multi-Shots that is a total of 52 Arcane/Multi-Shots while holding onto a 1:1 Rotation.
On Illidari Council I was fresh in as Survival just trying to run a manual rotation and I was 68 Auto Shots, 67 Steady Shots, 27 Arcane Shots, 19 Multi-Shots which is a total of 46 Arcane/Multi-Shots.
My Arcane shot count is a little more then 100% higher them Multi-Shot because after moving into the proper phases etc on Illidan the ARcane shot will be refreshed when the damage begins again, thus firing over Multi-Shot.
However, even if it balanced out the right way it seems that it is possible to create a 1:1.75 rotation.
Auto/Steady always needs to be 1:1 - If it is 1:1 then you can't be losing Auto Shots right? I would have to be clipping BOTH Auto/Steady Shots for the above shot chart to be wrong yes?
It may sound as if I have downs but everywhere on here it says you want the same number of Auto Shots as you do Steady Shots. I have this, but in addition to it I also have more Arcanes/Multi-Shots giving me basically a 1:1.75 rotation as opposed to a 1:1.5. So then it is possible to successfully create a 1:1.75 rotation as both a Survival and MM hunter provided you do not run out of mana? The above logs indicate yes.
Sure its possible. you could make a 1:15 rotation if you wanted to, the idea is to maximise your damage.
Ok, probably we need to stop arguing much about rotations and redirect discussion there
[Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated
Basicaly there are 2 optimal shot rotations that maximize damage: 1:1 and 1:1.5.
1:1 is standard BM rotation. It can be used with MM or Surv too with 2.4 speed weapon, just endgame do not have such weapons past [Consortium Blaster]. (BBL is to fast for 1:1.5, but to slow to be optimal for this rotation too for not BM)
1:1.5 rotation is invented to pack maximum amount of shots with slower weapons while just minimally interfering with auto shot. It is minmaxed rotation to include 3 specials over 2 autshots without lowering auto shot dps. We can not do more special shots,even instants, over 2 auto shots because of GCD and because steady have cast time that need to be timed correctly between autoshots. Basic 1:1.5 rotation : auto/steady/(instant)/auto/steady.
[Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated
Basicaly there are 2 optimal shot rotations that maximize damage: 1:1 and 1:1.5.
1:1 is standard BM rotation. It can be used with MM or Surv too with 2.4 speed weapon, just endgame do not have such weapons past [Consortium Blaster]. (BBL is to fast for 1:1.5, but to slow to be optimal for this rotation too for not BM)
1:1.5 rotation is invented to pack maximum amount of shots with slower weapons while just minimally interfering with auto shot. It is minmaxed rotation to include 3 specials over 2 autshots without lowering auto shot dps. We can not do more special shots,even instants, over 2 auto shots because of GCD and because steady have cast time that need to be timed correctly between autoshots. Basic 1:1.5 rotation : auto/steady/(instant)/auto/steady.
Does anyone care to go over what are good/bad DPS numbers for a T6 SV Hunter?
Edit: Whoops, didn't notice discussion went onto the next page.
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Originally Posted by intrepidos
Does anyone care to go over what are good/bad DPS numbers for a T6 SV Hunter?
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Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
The group comp in the above WWS are 3 hunters + 2 casters. No GoA or LotP. Ugly IC kill (1.1 million damage done, oy).
These 2 are a bit over a month old, thought I believe my gear was virtually identical to what I wear now. Also, I believe I had GoA and LotP for most/all of these.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
It seems 1.7-1.9k is excellent for stand-and-deliver fights like Rage and GF. 1.1-1.4k for Shahraz, depending on mana drains, pot use and ports. 1.3-1.5k for BB depending on rages. Note that long fights like Azgalor and IC favour TotH builds by permitting full and/or upranked multishot rotations with hawk running for longer periods. Hell, with a ret paladin, mana spring and BoW, I don't have to pot at all on IC while burning mana as fast as possible.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
The 2nd Kill Command in the macro I posted is Lightning Breath - I do not have Kill Command written to go off 2x in the macro, I typed it improperly on this thread.
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| I had 80 Auto Shots, 79 Steady Shots (Close to 1:1) and then I had 37 Arcane Shots and 15 Multi-Shots that is a total of 52 Arcane/Multi-Shots while holding onto a 1:1 Rotation. |
Whats wrong is 52 Arcane/Multi-Shots. Such large number of specials indicate MUCH clipping of auto shot.
*Whoa looked WWS you stated only normal shots and forgot about crits! /bonk
Ideal (0 lag, 0 reflex...) 1:1.5 rotation has 100 Auto Shots and 150 specials.
100 Auto Shots, 100 Steady shots and 50 other specials (arcane/multi and in your macro half of KCs also).
Due movement, mend pet, HM refresh, Scorpid Sting, getting parasite, placing trap, switching targets, getting heroism, popping rapid fire... and human reactions+lag number of specials per auto shot drops.
80 normal + 64 crits = 144 auto shots
79 normal + 53 crits = 132 steady shots
37 normal + 27 crits = 64 arcane shots
15 normal + 21 crits = 36 multi-shots
144:232 = 1:1:61 rotation
This ratio alone tells me that you clip(delay) auto shot. Glaurong I believe has special parser for this.
Here this is from your Ilidian log. 29 seconds of fight, 7 autoshots. That's 4.2 "speed" on your bow... after quiver and possible hastes gained.
You have Arcane and Mulit-Shots before Steady casts, that's big loss already. And pet was alive in this period and KC I'm sure delayed some of these shots too.
05:52'41.139 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1864 181 Kurkis's Arcane Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 852 Arcane damage 05:52'44.149 Kurkis's Steady Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 840 05:52'47.392 Kurkis's Multi-Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 938 05:52'49.446 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2126 05:52'50.088 Kurkis's Arcane Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1912 Arcane damage 900 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1896 05:52'53.102 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1945 931 Kurkis's Auto Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 812 05:52'55.588 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2107 05:52'56.424 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1892 424 Kurkis's Arcane Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2027 Arcane damage 05:52'58.899 Kurkis's Steady Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 950 05:53'00.165 Kurkis's Multi-Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 1061 314 Kurkis's Auto Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 900 05:53'03.446 Kurkis's Auto Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 898 05:53'05.243 Kurkis's Steady Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 844 05:53'06.009 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2095 009 Kurkis's Arcane Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2110 Arcane damage 05:53'08.792 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2164
# Action Damage Mana Start Stop 1 Auto 1,031.50 0 0.00 0.50 2 Steady 1,060.64 88 0.70 2.00 3 Multi 1,180.50 220 2.40 2.90 4 Auto 1,031.50 0 2.90 3.40 5 Steady 1,060.64 88 4.10 5.40 6 Auto 1,031.50 0 5.51 6.01 7 Steady 1,060.64 88 6.21 7.51 8 Arcane 1,136.88 184 7.91 7.91 9 Auto 1,031.50 0 8.12 8.62 10 Steady 1,060.64 88 9.61 10.91 11 Auto 1,031.50 0 10.91 11.41 12 Steady 1,060.64 88 11.61 12.92 13 Multi 1,180.50 220 13.31 13.81 14 Auto 1,031.50 0 13.81 14.31 15 Steady 1,060.64 88 15.01 16.32 16 Auto 1,031.50 0 16.42 16.92 17 Steady 1,060.64 88 17.12 18.43 18 Arcane 1,136.88 184 18.82 18.82 19 Auto 1,031.50 0 19.03 19.53 20 Steady 1,060.64 88 20.52 21.83 21 Auto 1,031.50 0 21.83 22.33 22 Steady 1,060.64 88 22.53 23.83 23 Multi 1,180.50 220 24.23 24.73 24 Auto 1,031.50 0 24.73 25.23 25 Steady 1,060.64 88 25.93 27.23 26 Auto 1,031.50 0 27.33 27.83 27 Steady 1,060.64 88 28.03 29.34 28 Arcane 1,136.88 184 29.73 29.73 29 Auto 1,031.50 0 29.94 30.44 30 Steady 1,060.64 88 31.43 32.74
Edited 1 million times, sorry.
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Last edited by Sapa : 01/04/08 at 7:34 AM.
ah seems you corrected your last "theoric" sequence ... because just when I wanted to post, the autoshot speed was 2.1, which means a 2.9 weapon in a BM hands :p
what's the weapon base speed now ? 3.0 ?
otherwise, your data would be wrong again, because 2.9 base + quiver don't give a 2.9 autoshot cycle
what's the weapon base speed now ? 3.0 ?
otherwise, your data would be wrong again, because 2.9 base + quiver don't give a 2.9 autoshot cycle
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Originally Posted by hebus
ah seems you corrected your last "theoric" sequence ... because just when I wanted to post, the autoshot speed was 2.1, which means a 2.9 weapon in a BM hands :p
what's the weapon base speed now ? 3.0 ? otherwise, your data would be wrong again, because 2.9 base + quiver don't give a 2.9 autoshot cycle |
Edit: And survival rotation.
__________________
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Originally Posted by intrepidos
Does anyone care to go over what are good/bad DPS numbers for a T6 SV Hunter?
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I'm at 954 agility unbuffed now, pretty much need only an Illidan/Archimonde bow and a Madness of the Betrayer to finish off my gearset (as well as a few more spinels... damn those things).
Note: Saggies (new hunter to the guild) is comparatively undergeared compared to Boduar (BM hunter) and myself, our primary hunters. This'll explain his apparent lack of dps, even though he is BM.
I'm a 0/28/33 build using an Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady rotation.
I am a new poster on these forums and appreciate all of the good information in this thread. Please keep it coming...
Although I have not yet been able to read every reply in this thread (have read about 70%), one item that I have noticed is the continual debate over which build is optimal for a Survival hunter. Some hunters have indicated that a IAtH/FF build is optimal, while others have stated that a MT/Readiness build is better, and yet others have stated that a barrage build is best.
After seeing all this discussion and having done extensive analysis using my character and tools like Cheeky's spreadsheet, I have arrived at the answer to the ultimate hunter question, and that answer is:
IT DEPENDS
I realize that this answer may be obvious to many, but it does not seem obvious to all as can be seen from the intense discussions. Hence, I just wanted to point this out and provide some rationale for it.
Which build is optimal depends on many factors, such as:
- Which is more important to you, maximizing personal DPS, maximizing your EW contributions to the raid, or a balance of both? Some builds will provide better personal DPS but at the cost of your average EW contributions, while other builds may have the opposite effect. I personally prefer trying to find a balance between the two.
- What gear you currently are wearing. I know that most people are already aware that build and gear are interdependent. Most people realize that what build you are influences your gear choices to maximize that build. However, what I have noticed that people often do not realize is that the interdependency goes both ways. What gear you currently have available also influences which builds are more effective for you. For instance, if you are wearing 4 arena pieces with the 1s reduced cooldown for multishot with one of the pieces being the arena 3 gloves with the 5% damage bonus for multishot, a barrage build may be better for you with that gear. Other gear choices such as whether your best ranged weapon is relatively fast or slow influences the optimal Survival build as well. In addition, the mana pool and regen capability of your gear influences whether you need to forgo some talents that would directly improve your DPS and/or EW contributions for talents that increase your time to OOM, which allows you to maintain your more effective rotations longer and, thus, indirectly improving your DPS and/or EW contributions. I personally have found that as my gear has changed that a different build is sometimes more effective than the one I had been using.
Thus, the moral is to not take anyone else's word on which build is best. What build is best for them, may not be the ideal build for your character at the current time. Listen to their insights, but explore for yourself what builds work best for you.
====================
As an example to how gear affects your optimal build, here is an example using my hunter. Prior to the availability of the ZA and T6 equivalent arena and PvP gear, I had found from previous analysis that a 7/20/34 (5/5 IAtH, 2/2 FF, standard 20 in MM to get 5/5 Mortal Shots, and then 3/3 EW and 1/3 TotH) was the most effective for my Survival hunter with the gear he had and my desire for a balance between personal DPS and EW contribution maximizing. After the availability of the new gear and acquiring of much of it, I redid my build analysis. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, I tried out about 11 different builds and 5 different shot rotations for each to see which build/shot rotations were most effective for my hunter with his current gear. The different builds all had at least 20 points in MM talents to have 5/5 Mortal Shots and at least 32 points in Survival talents to have 2/3 EW with experimenting with various IAtH, MT, barrage, and RWS builds for the remaining 9 points. From this analysis, I discovered that the currently optimal build for my hunter was 0/20/41 with 2/3 TotH, 3/3 EW, 5/5 MT, and Readiness.
Although I have not yet been able to read every reply in this thread (have read about 70%), one item that I have noticed is the continual debate over which build is optimal for a Survival hunter. Some hunters have indicated that a IAtH/FF build is optimal, while others have stated that a MT/Readiness build is better, and yet others have stated that a barrage build is best.
After seeing all this discussion and having done extensive analysis using my character and tools like Cheeky's spreadsheet, I have arrived at the answer to the ultimate hunter question, and that answer is:
IT DEPENDS
I realize that this answer may be obvious to many, but it does not seem obvious to all as can be seen from the intense discussions. Hence, I just wanted to point this out and provide some rationale for it.
Which build is optimal depends on many factors, such as:
- Which is more important to you, maximizing personal DPS, maximizing your EW contributions to the raid, or a balance of both? Some builds will provide better personal DPS but at the cost of your average EW contributions, while other builds may have the opposite effect. I personally prefer trying to find a balance between the two.
- What gear you currently are wearing. I know that most people are already aware that build and gear are interdependent. Most people realize that what build you are influences your gear choices to maximize that build. However, what I have noticed that people often do not realize is that the interdependency goes both ways. What gear you currently have available also influences which builds are more effective for you. For instance, if you are wearing 4 arena pieces with the 1s reduced cooldown for multishot with one of the pieces being the arena 3 gloves with the 5% damage bonus for multishot, a barrage build may be better for you with that gear. Other gear choices such as whether your best ranged weapon is relatively fast or slow influences the optimal Survival build as well. In addition, the mana pool and regen capability of your gear influences whether you need to forgo some talents that would directly improve your DPS and/or EW contributions for talents that increase your time to OOM, which allows you to maintain your more effective rotations longer and, thus, indirectly improving your DPS and/or EW contributions. I personally have found that as my gear has changed that a different build is sometimes more effective than the one I had been using.
Thus, the moral is to not take anyone else's word on which build is best. What build is best for them, may not be the ideal build for your character at the current time. Listen to their insights, but explore for yourself what builds work best for you.
====================
As an example to how gear affects your optimal build, here is an example using my hunter. Prior to the availability of the ZA and T6 equivalent arena and PvP gear, I had found from previous analysis that a 7/20/34 (5/5 IAtH, 2/2 FF, standard 20 in MM to get 5/5 Mortal Shots, and then 3/3 EW and 1/3 TotH) was the most effective for my Survival hunter with the gear he had and my desire for a balance between personal DPS and EW contribution maximizing. After the availability of the new gear and acquiring of much of it, I redid my build analysis. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, I tried out about 11 different builds and 5 different shot rotations for each to see which build/shot rotations were most effective for my hunter with his current gear. The different builds all had at least 20 points in MM talents to have 5/5 Mortal Shots and at least 32 points in Survival talents to have 2/3 EW with experimenting with various IAtH, MT, barrage, and RWS builds for the remaining 9 points. From this analysis, I discovered that the currently optimal build for my hunter was 0/20/41 with 2/3 TotH, 3/3 EW, 5/5 MT, and Readiness.
a thought
hello
I'm new to posting like many, but avid reader, I was wondering about my spec. I'm SV right now, I've done a lot of reading, but I'm just not sure my gear is ready for it. I have about 825Agil unbuffed. I have a good guild, i run with 2 other hunters, 2 rogues and 1 enhan. Shammy. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little advice as to what i should do to maybe pick up the slack a tad. I really enjoy being an SV hunter, but not sure if my EW is really helping the raid. I do normally rank in the top 1-5 of our runs, but our casters are not that smart or care. So i would like to challenge myself like i always do. Thank you for your time.
I'm new to posting like many, but avid reader, I was wondering about my spec. I'm SV right now, I've done a lot of reading, but I'm just not sure my gear is ready for it. I have about 825Agil unbuffed. I have a good guild, i run with 2 other hunters, 2 rogues and 1 enhan. Shammy. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little advice as to what i should do to maybe pick up the slack a tad. I really enjoy being an SV hunter, but not sure if my EW is really helping the raid. I do normally rank in the top 1-5 of our runs, but our casters are not that smart or care. So i would like to challenge myself like i always do. Thank you for your time.
lockebelmont,
825 agility unbuffed is plenty for starting out survival. If you're competitive with damage with a survival build, you're doing fine. Most of the talents to pick up are fairly obvious, and only a few are subjective to play style or preference.
825 agility unbuffed is plenty for starting out survival. If you're competitive with damage with a survival build, you're doing fine. Most of the talents to pick up are fairly obvious, and only a few are subjective to play style or preference.
So as SV I gave up my Saberclaw Talisman for the latest PVP neck and popped in the 10 crit gem.....I feel like I've broken a tenant rule of survival giving up so much agility.
Whitefyst, interesting post and I agree with what you say. I've mainly gone the MT route but I'll be testing the IAotH/FF soon because it is a significant dps increase according to cheeky's spreadsheet. I'm certain that one reason it is a larger dps increase now is that when I first made the decision to go to MT I was using a 2.70 speed bow. I just aquired a 3.0 speed bow and Haste would work better for me now because there will be less clipping. I really hope that a ret pally makes most of my raids or i'll be chugging pots.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
So as SV I gave up my Saberclaw Talisman for the latest PVP neck and popped in the 10 crit gem.....I feel like I've broken a tenant rule of survival giving up so much agility.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
I agree, you have. The best survival neck pre-[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] is, hilariously, a level 65 blue, [Necklace of the Deep]
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In the big picture, a single item isn't worth that much, but personally, I've been tempted to replace [Saberclaw Talisman] myself, but I just don't see the PVP one as an upgrade...
EDIT: fixed the AP estimate
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http://www.blizzard.com/wow/screensh...dex=170&Set=64
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/screensh...dex=164&Set=64
http://www.igloolounge.net/pictures/...ike_parody.jpg
Kael is the real end game. Nothing else before, not that much after...
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Originally Posted by Enova
As for the second best, I feel I need to disagree. I mean, it depends if EW takes priority, or if EW is just a perk for going the high crit % route for you. But one has to look after his own damage output as well, after all...
EDIT: fixed the AP estimate |
Subtracting 21 Agi and 20 Stam off each item, it's 3 hit plus socket contents vs 13 stam plus 46 AP.
Socket contents for me are 16 Agi = 22 Agi after LR+Kings. So I lose 24 AP to make EW 5.5 AP stronger. If there are at least 5 physical DPS in the raid (including myself), which there always are, then that's more total AP for the whole raid, plus I get half a percent of crit from those 22 Agility. The 13 stam and 3 hit are both pretty minor, so the difference in their contributions to neckpiece attractiveness is negligible. Use BT gems and Necklace of the Deep looks even better.
Of course, we're free to simply disagree. I feel like I strike a fairly good balance between personal DPS and EW strength (my current unbuffed [+hawk] stats are 846 Agi, 2044 AP, 35.7% crit, and my guild is 1/6 SSC, 1/4 TK). I'm also not really running Kara anymore, and Saberclaw never dropped.
here is a link of wws report from my guilds karathress try and kill.
Wow Web Stats
i am playing 0/20/41 with readyness using the standard atuo>steady>multi>auto>steady>auto>steady>arcane
when under 2 second attack speed (eg from haste) i switch to just auto>steady.
my gear isnt the best for survival having only respec to it today, to much hit rating.
having feral druid 2 shaman 1 bm hunter in my group (shaman add tank group)
my question is this at my gear level is my dps where it should be and also is there anyway i can improve my dps throught changing spec or gear?
Wow Web Stats
i am playing 0/20/41 with readyness using the standard atuo>steady>multi>auto>steady>auto>steady>arcane
when under 2 second attack speed (eg from haste) i switch to just auto>steady.
my gear isnt the best for survival having only respec to it today, to much hit rating.
having feral druid 2 shaman 1 bm hunter in my group (shaman add tank group)
my question is this at my gear level is my dps where it should be and also is there anyway i can improve my dps throught changing spec or gear?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Is it not utterly retarded to anyone else that Necklace of the Deep is one of the best in slot for ...the entire game up to this point?
Since we don't really do TK much anymore, I'm torn between replacing it with said blue. Even the neck gorefiend drops isn't better? Seriously. I can plug it in the spreadsheet if need be, but hearing such assuredness is disconcerting.
Sidenote; The other hunters in my guild are historically better than me, however I've noticed that I as SV can overtake them now. I know it's because I use a windserpent on boss unfriendly fights with LB in the macro and consumables (dual elixirs, sometimes mageblood, pot away) and expensive ammo, but still the goal is to max out truth? Anyways, everytime I try to enlighten them just a little bit they wall up and change topics or something. Granted their dps isn't ass, but they outgear me and I don't expect to be able to catch up/overtake them in fights they have more experience on.
EJ, how can I get them to let go of their old ways and step their game up?
Since we don't really do TK much anymore, I'm torn between replacing it with said blue. Even the neck gorefiend drops isn't better? Seriously. I can plug it in the spreadsheet if need be, but hearing such assuredness is disconcerting.
Sidenote; The other hunters in my guild are historically better than me, however I've noticed that I as SV can overtake them now. I know it's because I use a windserpent on boss unfriendly fights with LB in the macro and consumables (dual elixirs, sometimes mageblood, pot away) and expensive ammo, but still the goal is to max out truth? Anyways, everytime I try to enlighten them just a little bit they wall up and change topics or something. Granted their dps isn't ass, but they outgear me and I don't expect to be able to catch up/overtake them in fights they have more experience on.
EJ, how can I get them to let go of their old ways and step their game up?
Last edited by Wunlastri : 01/07/08 at 10:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
[Necklace of the Deep] vs [Saberclaw Talisman]
Subtracting 21 Agi and 20 Stam off each item, it's 3 hit plus socket contents vs 13 stam plus 46 AP. Socket contents for me are 16 Agi = 22 Agi after LR+Kings. So I lose 24 AP to make EW 5.5 AP stronger. If there are at least 5 physical DPS in the raid (including myself), which there always are, then that's more total AP for the whole raid, plus I get half a percent of crit from those 22 Agility. The 13 stam and 3 hit are both pretty minor, so the difference in their contributions to neckpiece attractiveness is negligible. Use BT gems and Necklace of the Deep looks even better. Of course, we're free to simply disagree. I feel like I strike a fairly good balance between personal DPS and EW strength (my current unbuffed [+hawk] stats are 846 Agi, 2044 AP, 35.7% crit, and my guild is 1/6 SSC, 1/4 TK). I'm also not really running Kara anymore, and Saberclaw never dropped. |
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Originally Posted by Enova
I've been tempted to replace [Saberclaw Talisman] myself, but I just don't see the PVP one as an upgrade...
EDIT: fixed the AP estimate |
However, I need to add Necklace of the Deep to the analysis, but from Gearknights quick analysis, it appears to be a possible option.
I've long since realized I'm never going to see a telonicus neck, and I will proudly wear my necklace of the deep into sunwell (*hopefully* not beyond though). The two things I pray for in sunwell are a usable gun, and an agility necklace. Anyways, not sure if armory's working yet (it's been up and down), but I'd love a critique of my gear- aside from telonicus neck and madness of the betrayer, I *think* I'm done with gear. Anyone see things I'm missing?
Okay, I am sold on [Necklace of the Deep]. I have done the analysis, and for my current gear and talents versus the Saberclaw Necklace, it provides a little more DPS, about 0.5, and a significant more EW AP proc, 5.2, when fully raid buffed at a cost of only 143 health.
Looks like I will be contacting my JC to make me one (luckily, I have the mats already).
Looks like I will be contacting my JC to make me one (luckily, I have the mats already).
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Has anyone worked out the 1:1.5 shot rotation macro since 2.3.2 came out? Do you think adding the ! in front of the autoshot will fix toggle?
Last edited by Dibbler : 01/08/08 at 9:21 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Last edited by Trohck : 01/08/08 at 10:11 PM.
I was just coming to check on this. I use the cast sequence macro for my 1:1.5 rotation and there are auto shots getting in between.
Thank god it's not just me. At least I know I am not crazy. Is there anyway to work around it, or back to manual timing for now?
Thank god it's not just me. At least I know I am not crazy. Is there anyway to work around it, or back to manual timing for now?
will have too wait for WWS too be posted but I didn't notice any clipping on tonights raid with
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot(rank 6), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot(rank 6), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
I've discussed this (the castsequence bug) with hunters in my guild. Here's the best workaround we've been able to come up with:
Bind to Mousewheel:
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
Bind to Shift-Mousewheel:
Arcane Shot
Bind to Ctrl-Mousewheel:
Multi Shot
What you will do is spam mouse will until you the Steady shot that goes before Arcane/Multi. Once Steady Shot begins casting, press and hold your modifier key (ex. Shift) and continue spamming. Once you see Arcane/Multi cast, let go of the modifier.
This way your spam will cover the two tighest places in the 1.5 : 1 rotation:
1. The time between Steady and your special
2. Casting Steady as soon as it is available after autos
I've tested it and it works better than a straight manual weave, though obviously it still requires a decent bit of concentration. Another advantage is that you can also weave other instants like Scorpid Sting in the place of the special by spamming them - but mousewheel should be used for the frequent shots because it is a much faster spam that you can on a keyboard (unless your keyboard is fancy).
It's still not as good as an actual working /castsequence macro, but I think it's the best you can do given the situation.
Bind to Mousewheel:
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
Bind to Shift-Mousewheel:
Arcane Shot
Bind to Ctrl-Mousewheel:
Multi Shot
What you will do is spam mouse will until you the Steady shot that goes before Arcane/Multi. Once Steady Shot begins casting, press and hold your modifier key (ex. Shift) and continue spamming. Once you see Arcane/Multi cast, let go of the modifier.
This way your spam will cover the two tighest places in the 1.5 : 1 rotation:
1. The time between Steady and your special
2. Casting Steady as soon as it is available after autos
I've tested it and it works better than a straight manual weave, though obviously it still requires a decent bit of concentration. Another advantage is that you can also weave other instants like Scorpid Sting in the place of the special by spamming them - but mousewheel should be used for the frequent shots because it is a much faster spam that you can on a keyboard (unless your keyboard is fancy).
It's still not as good as an actual working /castsequence macro, but I think it's the best you can do given the situation.
Last edited by Trohck : 01/09/08 at 1:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Koto
will have too wait for WWS too be posted but I didn't notice any clipping on tonights raid with
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-shot(rank 6), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot |
Were you able to look at the WWS data to see if you did clip shots?
94 auto shots
91 steadies
23 arcanes
20 multis
and I am using a 2.9 speed weapon with only 3 of 5 in imp arcane which would explain the three extra arcanes and the three clipped steadies. (am I wrong?)
So imo that macro is a working cast sequence macro for a 1:1.5.
91 steadies
23 arcanes
20 multis
and I am using a 2.9 speed weapon with only 3 of 5 in imp arcane which would explain the three extra arcanes and the three clipped steadies. (am I wrong?)
So imo that macro is a working cast sequence macro for a 1:1.5.
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Originally Posted by Koto
94 auto shots
91 steadies 23 arcanes 20 multis and I am using a 2.9 speed weapon with only 3 of 5 in imp arcane which would explain the three extra arcanes and the three clipped steadies. (am I wrong?) So imo that macro is a working cast sequence macro for a 1:1.5. |
on a side note, i don't care much for the !auto shot feature... i changed my macro to steady, arcane, steady, steady, multi, steady, and just made sure that i waited for the autoshot to automatically fire before i scrolled my mousewheel another click. yes, sometimes i would clip, but with the !auto shot, it gets way screwy if i'm not mad spamming...
I use /castsequence Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, and had modified it with !Auto Shot. I noticed during raids (somewhat consistently) that at times the second auto shot would fire BEFORE the arcane shot, leading me to have to wait on another auto shot to continue the macro.
Normal Behavior: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady...
Problem Behavior: Auto Steady Auto Arcane ........................... Auto Steady...
Pretty sure this is the behavior many of you are describing as the issue, I know it certainly is mine.
I can't explain the behavior, going to have to do more testing with it. One possible solution is that I just switched from Arcanite Steam Pistol (2.9 speed) to Archimonde bow (3.0 speed), which might be messing things up. I'm not sure what else could cause this behavior, since the shots should be firing in the order described by the macro, and not any other.
Interestingly enough, it seemed tied to the frequency of which I pressed my macro. On a long boss fight, if I got into a rhythm and kept the same frequency of macro presses, I didn't run into the issue at all. On others (like Illidan) where I was moving around and using other shots, I definitely noticed it a lot.
Normal Behavior: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady...
Problem Behavior: Auto Steady Auto Arcane ........................... Auto Steady...
Pretty sure this is the behavior many of you are describing as the issue, I know it certainly is mine.
I can't explain the behavior, going to have to do more testing with it. One possible solution is that I just switched from Arcanite Steam Pistol (2.9 speed) to Archimonde bow (3.0 speed), which might be messing things up. I'm not sure what else could cause this behavior, since the shots should be firing in the order described by the macro, and not any other.
Interestingly enough, it seemed tied to the frequency of which I pressed my macro. On a long boss fight, if I got into a rhythm and kept the same frequency of macro presses, I didn't run into the issue at all. On others (like Illidan) where I was moving around and using other shots, I definitely noticed it a lot.
Yes, that's exactly the behavior described in the bug on the WoW forums.
Hey all. So I've messed around some more and tried manually timing the shots, and the same thing happens. Unless I start mad spamming the hotkey for arcane right after steady, that auto shot STILL slips in before the arcane.
Back to Black Temple tonight and I have no idea what to do to get a somewhat decent rotation going. Do I just go with the old macro (edited with !autoshot) and hope for the best? Or, if that auto is firing with arcane, just go for more of a 1:1 rotation using arcane when it is up?
Back to Black Temple tonight and I have no idea what to do to get a somewhat decent rotation going. Do I just go with the old macro (edited with !autoshot) and hope for the best? Or, if that auto is firing with arcane, just go for more of a 1:1 rotation using arcane when it is up?
Lilwolfe-
Using the old macro with !Auto Shot is going to be a *slight* dps loss, but it's in no way going to stop you from performing in BT/Hyjal. I felt I was ~100 or so dps below where I usually am, but 1300 instead of 1400 dps (my numbers from this week) is much preferable to trying to do a 1:1 rotation, or even worse trying to manually time your shots.
Using the old macro with !Auto Shot is going to be a *slight* dps loss, but it's in no way going to stop you from performing in BT/Hyjal. I felt I was ~100 or so dps below where I usually am, but 1300 instead of 1400 dps (my numbers from this week) is much preferable to trying to do a 1:1 rotation, or even worse trying to manually time your shots.
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
Back to Black Temple tonight and I have no idea what to do to get a somewhat decent rotation going. Do I just go with the old macro (edited with !autoshot) and hope for the best?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Look on this page >< post #803.
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Yeah I saw it earlier Trohck, but I don't think I can adjust to using the mouse wheel, with a shift modifier so fast as one night and still be supporting the raid with dps output. In honesty, I am a macro dummy and stuff - so I'm not even sure at what point I would be pressing shift, and what point I wouldn't be.
Edit: Well no, you explain when, I just don't think I can hack that much new timing and pushing of stuff on top of Black Temple learning (pretty new in there guildwise).
I'll try it though.
Last edited by lilwolfe : 01/11/08 at 4:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
I've discussed this (the castsequence bug) with hunters in my guild. Here's the best workaround we've been able to come up with:
Bind to Mousewheel: /castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot Bind to Shift-Mousewheel: Arcane Shot Bind to Ctrl-Mousewheel: Multi Shot What you will do is spam mouse will until you the Steady shot that goes before Arcane/Multi. Once Steady Shot begins casting, press and hold your modifier key (ex. Shift) and continue spamming. Once you see Arcane/Multi cast, let go of the modifier. This way your spam will cover the two tighest places in the 1.5 : 1 rotation: 1. The time between Steady and your special 2. Casting Steady as soon as it is available after autos I've tested it and it works better than a straight manual weave, though obviously it still requires a decent bit of concentration. Another advantage is that you can also weave other instants like Scorpid Sting in the place of the special by spamming them - but mousewheel should be used for the frequent shots because it is a much faster spam that you can on a keyboard (unless your keyboard is fancy). It's still not as good as an actual working /castsequence macro, but I think it's the best you can do given the situation. |
It's not as hard or complicated as it looks in my post. I just posted a lot of detail so that it's 100% obvious what I meant. Spend 20 minutes on Dr. Boom before the raid and I bet you will be in good shape.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Nice, very good info here.
I found a lot of great tweaks here, i also have the clip problem.
I will try a few things and post if it's worth talking about.
Thanks
I will try a few things and post if it's worth talking about.
Thanks
Last edited by five : 01/15/08 at 7:19 PM. Reason: Grammar
Question regarding shot macro's post 2.3.2 and the rolling restart.
For a long time, I've been a staunch supporter of manual weaving, but I've begun to be interested in trying out macro's to see if I can get an increase in my DPS by removing any human error from the equation.
I've read my way through the majority of this thread and can see that there's no real agreed upon shot rotation for Survival (the recent mess with the unlinked autoshot hasn't seemed to have helped), currently these are the one's I'm thinking about trying out.
1:1.5
/castsequence reset=X Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
where x=reset timer on autoshot
1:1 (for when hasted)
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I have a few questions regarding the above that I'd love to get some feedback on from the more theorycraft gifted among us.
1. I currently have a 2.8 speed bow, is the 1:1.5 speed macro above possible with this weapon speed, or should I wait until I can get my hands on a weapon 2.9 speed or greater?
2. Is speccing 4/5 into improved arcane shot necessary to truly make the 1:1.5 work? I'm assuming with a 2.8 speed weapon it will be, but will it still be necessary for a 3.0 or 3.2 speed?
3. Could multi-shot be added along with Arcane shot successfully on the castrandom line? If so, that would negate the need for speccing into improved arcane, correct?
Any other advice regarding Survival shot-macros from those with experience would also be greatly appreciated.
For a long time, I've been a staunch supporter of manual weaving, but I've begun to be interested in trying out macro's to see if I can get an increase in my DPS by removing any human error from the equation.
I've read my way through the majority of this thread and can see that there's no real agreed upon shot rotation for Survival (the recent mess with the unlinked autoshot hasn't seemed to have helped), currently these are the one's I'm thinking about trying out.
1:1.5
/castsequence reset=X Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
where x=reset timer on autoshot
1:1 (for when hasted)
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I have a few questions regarding the above that I'd love to get some feedback on from the more theorycraft gifted among us.
1. I currently have a 2.8 speed bow, is the 1:1.5 speed macro above possible with this weapon speed, or should I wait until I can get my hands on a weapon 2.9 speed or greater?
2. Is speccing 4/5 into improved arcane shot necessary to truly make the 1:1.5 work? I'm assuming with a 2.8 speed weapon it will be, but will it still be necessary for a 3.0 or 3.2 speed?
3. Could multi-shot be added along with Arcane shot successfully on the castrandom line? If so, that would negate the need for speccing into improved arcane, correct?
Any other advice regarding Survival shot-macros from those with experience would also be greatly appreciated.
The issue I have been seeing since 2.3.2 is that my macro will hang and I have to drop then re-select my target to get it to start up again. I use a simple Steady, Auto with Kill Command. Anyone else getting this hang problem?
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I use /castsequence Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady, and had modified it with !Auto Shot. I noticed during raids (somewhat consistently) that at times the second auto shot would fire BEFORE the arcane shot, leading me to have to wait on another auto shot to continue the macro.
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From testing that me and a friend (also on his alt Hunter) a few things were determined:
1) If you're Survival or Marksman primary, haste is useless (not so for BMs though). My friend noticed this and when I started paying attention I was seeing it as well. The most preferable setup for a Survival or Marksman would be to have a 2.9 speed bow without any haste (kinda wishing we had Quivers/Pouchs with 0 speed improvements) and fire 2 Steadys between the Autos (a minor clip of about 0.1s or so). In order to make Haste actually useful for Survival and Marksman primary you would need enough speed to reach 1.4s with haste, pretty much an impossibility except when using Rapid Fire.
2) Fully Improved Arcane Shot helps greatly in maximizing DPS as AS can break up clipping that can occur with Steady/Auto rotations (I found optimal rotation with 5/5 IAS was Steady, AS, Auto, Steady, Auto, repeat with a 3.0 speed bow, 2.62 with Quiver). This change in rotation literally lead to a 150 to 170 DPS increase with Heroic level items (nothing from Kara or beyond) and a couple badge items through just eyeballing the autoshot bar timing.
Now, the big question, is this truly a bug or was this intentional on Blizzard's part.
For those of you using a full 1:1.5 macro and are having issues with it hanging because auto going off before the special, change your macro to this:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Steady Shot
Notice, it is the normal 1:1.5 macro, but I removed the two auto shots after the specials. Now, it doesn't matter if the auto goes off before or after the special. It will still definitely go off because of the GCD preventing the next steady from casting. I kept the auto in between the steadys because if you cast two steadys back-to-back, the auto sometimes doesn't go off.
Add in the rest of the lines and a reset timer as you see fit.
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Steady Shot
Notice, it is the normal 1:1.5 macro, but I removed the two auto shots after the specials. Now, it doesn't matter if the auto goes off before or after the special. It will still definitely go off because of the GCD preventing the next steady from casting. I kept the auto in between the steadys because if you cast two steadys back-to-back, the auto sometimes doesn't go off.
Add in the rest of the lines and a reset timer as you see fit.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
For those of you using a full 1:1.5 macro and are having issues with it hanging because auto going off before the special, change your macro to this:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Steady Shot Notice, it is the normal 1:1.5 macro, but I removed the two auto shots after the specials. Now, it doesn't matter if the auto goes off before or after the special. It will still definitely go off because of the GCD preventing the next steady from casting. I kept the auto in between the steadys because if you cast two steadys back-to-back, the auto sometimes doesn't go off. Add in the rest of the lines and a reset timer as you see fit. |
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(rank 6), Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
In particular is the reset timer correct?
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
I dont think so, it should have either reset=6for arcane, unless you have 5/5 IAS, or reset=10 for multi.
Last edited by Talrunya : 01/14/08 at 7:28 PM. Reason: Correction
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Reset timer is irrelevant. Reset does reset sequence if you have not used macro to advance for time listed in it.
I did use following macro for 1:1.5 performance tests in 2.3.2.
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot
This macro had same performance as /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot with manually inserted arcane/multi, but completely manual shot ordering where about 5% faster than 10 shot macro in my tests.
2 minute tests: 44 steady shots if manual click on all casts, and 42 steady shots using 8 shot /castsequence, 42 using 2 shot /castsequence with weaving. Probably I just click buttons in right time without waiting confirmation from server, compensating for latency.
Tested with 2.9 speed weapon.
I did use following macro for 1:1.5 performance tests in 2.3.2.
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot
This macro had same performance as /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot with manually inserted arcane/multi, but completely manual shot ordering where about 5% faster than 10 shot macro in my tests.
2 minute tests: 44 steady shots if manual click on all casts, and 42 steady shots using 8 shot /castsequence, 42 using 2 shot /castsequence with weaving. Probably I just click buttons in right time without waiting confirmation from server, compensating for latency.
Tested with 2.9 speed weapon.
Last edited by Hunterlin : 01/14/08 at 9:56 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
In my testing so far with an MM build (5/40/16, no points in barrage or imp barrage, 1 point in surefooted), the following macro is producing a decent amount more dps and better mana usage (2.9 spd weapon, 5/5 imp arcane, 5/5 imp hawk). I have it bound to the mouse wheel.
/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot
with no haste
27 autos, 62 steadys (89 shots) in 98.2 seconds (oom at 102.9 seconds) = 741.6dps that run
/w iaoth and rapid
34 autos, 62 steadys (96 shots) in 97.99 seconds (oom) = 896.4dps that run
/w iaoth and rapid and dst
39 autos, 63 steadys (102 shots) in 98.39 seconds (oom) = 936dps that run
for comparrison, /castsequence !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, steady shot produces
with no haste
32 autos, 31 steadys, 16 arcanes (79 shots) in 87.78 seconds (oom) = 755dps that run
with iaoth and rapid and dst
On several runs of this the castsequence has gotten hung up and bugged out to the point the macro would not run any more. it just cast auto shot. If I stopped shooting the macro would not work. If I feigned it would not work. I had to edit the macro and type a space and then delete it for it to start working again. I did not have a reset on it so it got hung and stayed hung. I have also had several uinstances of it casting three or more auto shots in a row before continuing. For this reason I do not consider it viable at this time. The dps while it was working was around 850dps anyway. Something that is interesting but I have not fully tested is it seems to get hung for the length of the /reset on the macro. So if its reset=5 then 5 seconds worth. If there is no reset then its till you log out or edit the macro. I need to test this more but its an obvious bug.
Summing that up the first macro is giving me ~181 more dps and I can fire it 10 seconds longer before going oom than the cast sequence. It does seem to scale with haste even with a MM build.
Was going to post WWS but all I have is last nights Kael attempts with me bow tanking. With all the pushback on steady shot it makes for a bad report to look at I think.
/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot
with no haste
27 autos, 62 steadys (89 shots) in 98.2 seconds (oom at 102.9 seconds) = 741.6dps that run
/w iaoth and rapid
34 autos, 62 steadys (96 shots) in 97.99 seconds (oom) = 896.4dps that run
/w iaoth and rapid and dst
39 autos, 63 steadys (102 shots) in 98.39 seconds (oom) = 936dps that run
for comparrison, /castsequence !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, steady shot produces
with no haste
32 autos, 31 steadys, 16 arcanes (79 shots) in 87.78 seconds (oom) = 755dps that run
with iaoth and rapid and dst
On several runs of this the castsequence has gotten hung up and bugged out to the point the macro would not run any more. it just cast auto shot. If I stopped shooting the macro would not work. If I feigned it would not work. I had to edit the macro and type a space and then delete it for it to start working again. I did not have a reset on it so it got hung and stayed hung. I have also had several uinstances of it casting three or more auto shots in a row before continuing. For this reason I do not consider it viable at this time. The dps while it was working was around 850dps anyway. Something that is interesting but I have not fully tested is it seems to get hung for the length of the /reset on the macro. So if its reset=5 then 5 seconds worth. If there is no reset then its till you log out or edit the macro. I need to test this more but its an obvious bug.
Summing that up the first macro is giving me ~181 more dps and I can fire it 10 seconds longer before going oom than the cast sequence. It does seem to scale with haste even with a MM build.
Was going to post WWS but all I have is last nights Kael attempts with me bow tanking. With all the pushback on steady shot it makes for a bad report to look at I think.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 01/14/08 at 11:39 PM.
Another observation about the above post, even if I could subsitiute arcane shots or multi-shots into the above rotation, it is already within 2 specials of the theoretical max specials possible in that time period. These would be replacing steady shots and slightly altering the number of auto shots cast. Form a mana usage perspective the extra dmg from arcane or multi would not be worth the 2x or 2.5x cost unless there were multiple mobs to be hit with multi.
What do you mean by no haste?
If you had switched off Hawk you'll lose 170 AP, which is quite a bit of DPS, in that case with the macro you posted haste doesn't scale really well to me.
Also with no haste 1:1.5 rotation you seem to do more dps than your 1:2, at the cost of a bit of mana yes, but not that much after all.
If you had switched off Hawk you'll lose 170 AP, which is quite a bit of DPS, in that case with the macro you posted haste doesn't scale really well to me.
Also with no haste 1:1.5 rotation you seem to do more dps than your 1:2, at the cost of a bit of mana yes, but not that much after all.
I picked up [Bow-stitched Leggings] last night, and I think I made a mistake socketing it with 3 Spinels. Looking ahead, I'm not seeing a whole lot of blue sockets in my future, and once I finally upgrade from my ancient and obsolete [Ebon Netherscale Breastplate], I'm going to have a tough time making the RED's gem requirement.
Where do you guys typically put your non-red gems?
Where do you guys typically put your non-red gems?
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by Gurth
What do you mean by no haste?
If you had switched off Hawk you'll lose 170 AP, which is quite a bit of DPS, in that case with the macro you posted haste doesn't scale really well to me. Also with no haste 1:1.5 rotation you seem to do more dps than your 1:2, at the cost of a bit of mana yes, but not that much after all. |
Here is how I have been looking at it. More shots fired in the same period of time will produce more dps in the end. Im not really comparing the dps number as much as the shots fired number. In all 3 of the cases spamming auto and steady only the number of specials fired is consistent and very close to the max possible with the gcd - 62 shots. As the amount of haste increases the number of auto shots fired in the period increases from 27 to 34 to 39 and those are all free mana shots. total shots went from 89 to 96 to 102.
Now with the 1:1.5 rotation 32 autos and 48 specials were fired in the same time period. Thats 10 less shots fired than the unhasted case and cost significantly more mana going oom 25 seconds earlier. So the auto steady spam is giving max possible specials and 5 less autos. Adding in haste the number of autos scales where the 1:1.5 macro breaks.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 01/15/08 at 12:15 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by Tibor
I picked up [Bow-stitched Leggings] last night, and I think I made a mistake socketing it with 3 Spinels. Looking ahead, I'm not seeing a whole lot of blue sockets in my future, and once I finally upgrade from my ancient and obsolete [Ebon Netherscale Breastplate], I'm going to have a tough time making the RED's gem requirement.
Where do you guys typically put your non-red gems? |
Popping two greens into Bow-stitched leggings would have been a good move since they would cover your meta requirements, make your set bonus and you wouldnt be upgrading those any time soon. Everything else could be +10 agi reguardless of socket color.
For now you could pop a green in your helm and bracer, or two in your belt of deep shadow to make the meta requirements.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 01/15/08 at 12:27 PM.
You know, damn, I completely didn't think of green gems. Talk about shameful! =)
You'll eventually have a blue and a yellow socket in [Gronnstalker's Spaulders], pretty easy to put two greens in that or in [Gronnstalker's Chestguard], or mix and match.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Back on the shot rotation thing, one item I misstated was additional shots per time period. The /castsequence macro ran for 10 seconds less because of the extra mana consumption so its not fair to say it produced 10 fewer shots. It produced the same number of shots per second as the unhasted auto / steady spam but cost 9 mana / sec more doing so.
Here is a spreadsheet using average hit values for auto, steady, arcane, multi taken from a wws of a fully raid buffed MM spec hunter against Morogrim Tidewalker. Arcane actually gets a boost here. tdps is calculated as shot count * shot dmg / time. From this it seems in an unhasted situation auto / steady spam does the same dps as a 1:1.5 rotation while consuming less mana. Adding in haste, the auto / steady spam scales past the /castsequence without changing its mana / sec consumption because the number of specials were already close to being capped.
For reference these are the five macros being compared:
/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot
---
/cast !auto shot
/castrandom arcane shot, steady shot
---
/cast !auto shot
/castrandom multi-shot, arcane shot, steady shot
---
/castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, steady shot
---
/castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, !auto shot, steady shot, !auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, !auto shot, steady shot
edit: added more tests, also found a case where multi/arcane/steady spam produced even more dps but cost 50% more mana.
Here is a spreadsheet using average hit values for auto, steady, arcane, multi taken from a wws of a fully raid buffed MM spec hunter against Morogrim Tidewalker. Arcane actually gets a boost here. tdps is calculated as shot count * shot dmg / time. From this it seems in an unhasted situation auto / steady spam does the same dps as a 1:1.5 rotation while consuming less mana. Adding in haste, the auto / steady spam scales past the /castsequence without changing its mana / sec consumption because the number of specials were already close to being capped.
For reference these are the five macros being compared:
/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot
---
/cast !auto shot
/castrandom arcane shot, steady shot
---
/cast !auto shot
/castrandom multi-shot, arcane shot, steady shot
---
/castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, steady shot
---
/castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, !auto shot, steady shot, !auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, !auto shot, steady shot
edit: added more tests, also found a case where multi/arcane/steady spam produced even more dps but cost 50% more mana.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 01/15/08 at 6:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot |
I tried this macro and didn't work good at all... i don't know but had autoshot firing every 3-4 steadys on avarage, it may have to do with latency, i'm usually at 250-300. I did noticed that popping raid fire help on auto going on more frequently, so this could actually mean you are back on manual timing steady...
Still looking at it, waiting for more feedback
Don't waste your time with green gems as survival. You're slightly better off actually using 2 yellows and 2 blues instead.
Assuming all BT gems:
2x 5crit 7stam gems
2x 10agi gems
= 20agi, 10crit, 14stam
2x 5hit 5agi gems
2x 5agi 7stam gems
= 20agi 10 hit 14 stam
Seeing as top end gear lacks hit anyways, you might as well save your guild the spinels and go with the other gems.
Assuming all BT gems:
2x 5crit 7stam gems
2x 10agi gems
= 20agi, 10crit, 14stam
2x 5hit 5agi gems
2x 5agi 7stam gems
= 20agi 10 hit 14 stam
Seeing as top end gear lacks hit anyways, you might as well save your guild the spinels and go with the other gems.
Green gems allow you to cover your meta requirements in once piece of gear, giving you more flexibility in other pieces of gear.
Updated the post above to include more tests
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Originally Posted by Trohck
Green gems allow you to cover your meta requirements in once piece of gear, giving you more flexibility in other pieces of gear.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.2
I just did a little reasoning about the value of master tactician relative to barrage, and I'm wondering if someone can check all of my logic and math.
1 point of barrage increases multi-shot's damage by 4%
1 point of MT increases 2% of your shots' damage by ~137-144% (depending on slaying) when it's up, which is roughly 35% of the time
{{ Sub-proof 1 - MT uptime: MT lasts 8 seconds. Whenever a shot is fired, there will usually have been 7 shots fired in the last 8 seconds. The probability that MT will be up is therefore 1 - 0.94^7 = 35.1% Or does MT have a hidden cooldown? }}
For a 1:1.5 rotation against a single target, multi-shot is 10% of your shots, but it does high damage, so we'll say it's 12% of a hunter's damage, before barrage.
Total damage with barrage / Total damage without barrage = 0.88 + 0.12 * 1.04 = 1.0048.
MT is up 35% of the time, and 1 point turns 2% of your shots from non-crits to crits when it's up. 0.35*0.02 = 0.007. So MT turns 0.007 of your shots from non-crits to crits, increasing their damage by a factor of 2.37 (non-slaying) to 2.44 (slaying).
Let's say that your crit percentage is X (a number between 0 and 1) before master tactician
Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = [(X+0.007) * Y + (1-X-0.007)] / [XY + 1-X] where Y is either 2.37 or 2.44, depending on slaying.
For a typical X = 0.45 and a middle value of Y = 2.4, then:
Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = 1.0049
So the value of 1 point of master tactician is (within a margin of error) the same as the value of 1 point of barrage. However this does not take into account the fact that extra crits from MT give your pet focus, save some mana via TotH, and keep EW up.
Have I screwed up somewhere, or should I stay convinced that 0/20/41 is the way to go, and not 0/24/37?
1 point of barrage increases multi-shot's damage by 4%
1 point of MT increases 2% of your shots' damage by ~137-144% (depending on slaying) when it's up, which is roughly 35% of the time
{{ Sub-proof 1 - MT uptime: MT lasts 8 seconds. Whenever a shot is fired, there will usually have been 7 shots fired in the last 8 seconds. The probability that MT will be up is therefore 1 - 0.94^7 = 35.1% Or does MT have a hidden cooldown? }}
For a 1:1.5 rotation against a single target, multi-shot is 10% of your shots, but it does high damage, so we'll say it's 12% of a hunter's damage, before barrage.
Total damage with barrage / Total damage without barrage = 0.88 + 0.12 * 1.04 = 1.0048.
MT is up 35% of the time, and 1 point turns 2% of your shots from non-crits to crits when it's up. 0.35*0.02 = 0.007. So MT turns 0.007 of your shots from non-crits to crits, increasing their damage by a factor of 2.37 (non-slaying) to 2.44 (slaying).
Let's say that your crit percentage is X (a number between 0 and 1) before master tactician
Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = [(X+0.007) * Y + (1-X-0.007)] / [XY + 1-X] where Y is either 2.37 or 2.44, depending on slaying.
For a typical X = 0.45 and a middle value of Y = 2.4, then:
Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = 1.0049
So the value of 1 point of master tactician is (within a margin of error) the same as the value of 1 point of barrage. However this does not take into account the fact that extra crits from MT give your pet focus, save some mana via TotH, and keep EW up.
Have I screwed up somewhere, or should I stay convinced that 0/20/41 is the way to go, and not 0/24/37?
Last edited by Gearknight : 01/16/08 at 12:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Don't waste your time with green gems as survival. You're slightly better off actually using 2 yellows and 2 blues instead.
Assuming all BT gems: 2x 5crit 7stam gems 2x 10agi gems = 20agi, 10crit, 14stam 2x 5hit 5agi gems 2x 5agi 7stam gems = 20agi 10 hit 14 stam Seeing as top end gear lacks hit anyways, you might as well save your guild the spinels and go with the other gems. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Purple = blue + red. It fits in a blue or red socket and is a blue gem just as much as a red gem for all practical purposes.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 01/16/08 at 5:39 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
@ Gearknight, some people are experiencing identical or superior single target dps never firing a single multi-shot. You can get a 1:1.5 rotation with imp arcane shot and a better than 1:1.5 rotation spamming auto / steady. See several posts up (#831) for some data on that. Once you decide you arent going to be shooting multi then you can put those 6 points in barrage / imp barrage anywhere you like - its all a gain at that point.
Specifically on MT, people have said elsewhere in this thread that it works out to about 3% additional crit.
Specifically on MT, people have said elsewhere in this thread that it works out to about 3% additional crit.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 01/16/08 at 5:41 AM.
Last night after killing Supremus I decided I'd take the leather chest because I didn't feel like seeing it sharded. Upon recieving and gemming it, I noticed an issue. I have way too much hit how. Like 40.266 too much, aka 2.57%. This leads me to decide to drop surefooted.....but I don't know what to replace it with, or how to get that remaining .43% or 6.7 (7) hit rating.
The increase is marginal (nor have I gemmed or enchanted it yet, because it's so marginal) and that leads me to wonder if I should switch my setup or wait until I get a more tangible upgrade to burn gems/enchants on. The only reason I'm not just going for eeking out the last bit of dps is because doing this is going to shake up my talents a retarded amount.
Not an avid pvper, I'm shaky on what to put my possibly free talent points in.
Ok. By marginal I mean 10.~ on the spreadsheet.
This is odd. By the spreadsheet going over the cap doesn't cap the DPS. With my talent tree not changing it's 17 dps. But I'm capped. A flaw in the sheet?
The increase is marginal (nor have I gemmed or enchanted it yet, because it's so marginal) and that leads me to wonder if I should switch my setup or wait until I get a more tangible upgrade to burn gems/enchants on. The only reason I'm not just going for eeking out the last bit of dps is because doing this is going to shake up my talents a retarded amount.
Not an avid pvper, I'm shaky on what to put my possibly free talent points in.
Ok. By marginal I mean 10.~ on the spreadsheet.
This is odd. By the spreadsheet going over the cap doesn't cap the DPS. With my talent tree not changing it's 17 dps. But I'm capped. A flaw in the sheet?
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Last night after killing Supremus I decided I'd take the leather chest because I didn't feel like seeing it sharded. Upon recieving and gemming it, I noticed an issue. I have way too much hit how. Like 40.266 too much, aka 2.57%. This leads me to decide to drop surefooted.....but I don't know what to replace it with, or how to get that remaining .43% or 6.7 (7) hit rating.
The increase is marginal (nor have I gemmed or enchanted it yet, because it's so marginal) and that leads me to wonder if I should switch my setup or wait until I get a more tangible upgrade to burn gems/enchants on. The only reason I'm not just going for eeking out the last bit of dps is because doing this is going to shake up my talents a retarded amount. Not an avid pvper, I'm shaky on what to put my possibly free talent points in. Ok. By marginal I mean 10.~ on the spreadsheet. This is odd. By the spreadsheet going over the cap doesn't cap the DPS. With my talent tree not changing it's 17 dps. But I'm capped. A flaw in the sheet? |
EDIT: I'd still advise against dropping surefooted from a survival build; somehow, it feels wrong.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
This is odd. By the spreadsheet going over the cap doesn't cap the DPS. With my talent tree not changing it's 17 dps. But I'm capped. A flaw in the sheet?
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I've been getting frustrated waiting for the Al'ar gun to drop for my hunter (we haven't seen it once and now that we're killing Kael I'm worried I may never get it), and I really prefer not to use bows. My current weapon is the wolfslayer which combined with lag issues creates a big problem for me maintaining a proper rotation. I've been looking at the tuskbreaker since it's 2.9 speed as a possible alternative (assuming it drops) and I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how much weapon speed the 18 haste rating will translate to on a 2.9 speed gun. I know it's supposed to be 1.14% haste, but I'm not sure when that gets applied (before or after ammo pouch) and what sort of shoot speed I'll be looking at (I know my 2.7 speed gun shows up as 2.3 speed on Quartz before haste effects proc). Can anyone tell me?
I also have maintained a gear list for survival hunters for some time now and I figured I might ask here if people want to look it over and see if I'm missing any items that should be on the list. I tried to update it recently to catch the new 2.3 items I'd forgotten about but I may have missed a few things. It's at:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Gear Guide
I also have maintained a gear list for survival hunters for some time now and I figured I might ask here if people want to look it over and see if I'm missing any items that should be on the list. I tried to update it recently to catch the new 2.3 items I'd forgotten about but I may have missed a few things. It's at:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Gear Guide
All haste effect are multiplicative, so it doesn't matter if you apply it before or after.
So to sum up the post a few up. Its fair to say that 1:1 is actually better then a 1:1.5 rotation.
I guess its also a good advantage if you go 1:1 is that you can stack a bit of haste, and not clip your as.
Ill give it atry tonight in Hyjal
I guess its also a good advantage if you go 1:1 is that you can stack a bit of haste, and not clip your as.
Ill give it atry tonight in Hyjal
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Originally Posted by nutteh
So to sum up the post a few up. Its fair to say that 1:1 is actually better then a 1:1.5 rotation.
I guess its also a good advantage if you go 1:1 is that you can stack a bit of haste, and not clip your as. Ill give it atry tonight in Hyjal |
As far how to gem for T6:
10agi Helm
12 agi/3 crit damage Helm
10agi Shoulders
10agi Shoulders
10agi Chest
5crit/7sta Chest
5crit/7sta Chest
10agi Bracers of the Pathfinder
10agi Gloves
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Quickstriders
5agi Quicksiders
QuiggyB -
I've been doing this 2:1 rotation myself and I find it to perform better then a 1:1.5 - I've also looked at just spamming in Multi, Arcane when it refreshes and that also seems to move more DPS then the 2:1 - My thing on that though is since the 2:1 scales as you increase your haste - Heroism, Rapid Fires, Haste Pot, DST, Drums and then if you wanted to drop Master Tact for Quick Shots, it would seem to me just running the 2:1 Steady/Auto is best.
My problem and perhaps you are running into this as well. Kill Command is botching the cycle. I use a G15 and I have my Steady/Auto spam set to just push/hold the button down and it will spam 1. Whether I macro in KC, or manually drop it in it seems to cut off the next Auto Shot forcing me to go 3 Steady Shots in a row without an Auto Shot.
I wonder if because Steady Shot is always starting with .5 left on Auto that when Kill Command goes go through I am eating up the chance for Auto and have to wait until a new Steady Shot cycle for the Auto to go back into sequence.
Using the macro of -
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
On Illidari Council I ran close to 1700 DPS with 192 Steady Shots, 77 Auto Shots and 58 Kill Commands.
This totally munched my Auto Shots and ultimately my DPS - Right now I'm running around using a 2:1 spam without KC. This bothers me though because not using Arcane or Multi with this, I want to get that 12-15k of KC damage.
Anyone with suggestions on how to resolve that? I raid with a ping under 200.
Really seems to me this rotation is optimal for MM/Survival - The only things I am trying to figure out is how to get KC into this rotation without it killing my Auto Shots, is Improved Hawk and Focused Fire better to get then ultimately Master Tactician and while spamming Multi/Arcane/Steady with !Auto Shot yields more DPS in an unhasted state is it just better to run 2:1 Steady spam only when you are running with 4 Drums, Haste Pots, DST, Rapid Fires, Quick Shots and Heroisms.
10agi Helm
12 agi/3 crit damage Helm
10agi Shoulders
10agi Shoulders
10agi Chest
5crit/7sta Chest
5crit/7sta Chest
10agi Bracers of the Pathfinder
10agi Gloves
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Quickstriders
5agi Quicksiders
QuiggyB -
I've been doing this 2:1 rotation myself and I find it to perform better then a 1:1.5 - I've also looked at just spamming in Multi, Arcane when it refreshes and that also seems to move more DPS then the 2:1 - My thing on that though is since the 2:1 scales as you increase your haste - Heroism, Rapid Fires, Haste Pot, DST, Drums and then if you wanted to drop Master Tact for Quick Shots, it would seem to me just running the 2:1 Steady/Auto is best.
My problem and perhaps you are running into this as well. Kill Command is botching the cycle. I use a G15 and I have my Steady/Auto spam set to just push/hold the button down and it will spam 1. Whether I macro in KC, or manually drop it in it seems to cut off the next Auto Shot forcing me to go 3 Steady Shots in a row without an Auto Shot.
I wonder if because Steady Shot is always starting with .5 left on Auto that when Kill Command goes go through I am eating up the chance for Auto and have to wait until a new Steady Shot cycle for the Auto to go back into sequence.
Using the macro of -
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
On Illidari Council I ran close to 1700 DPS with 192 Steady Shots, 77 Auto Shots and 58 Kill Commands.
This totally munched my Auto Shots and ultimately my DPS - Right now I'm running around using a 2:1 spam without KC. This bothers me though because not using Arcane or Multi with this, I want to get that 12-15k of KC damage.
Anyone with suggestions on how to resolve that? I raid with a ping under 200.
Really seems to me this rotation is optimal for MM/Survival - The only things I am trying to figure out is how to get KC into this rotation without it killing my Auto Shots, is Improved Hawk and Focused Fire better to get then ultimately Master Tactician and while spamming Multi/Arcane/Steady with !Auto Shot yields more DPS in an unhasted state is it just better to run 2:1 Steady spam only when you are running with 4 Drums, Haste Pots, DST, Rapid Fires, Quick Shots and Heroisms.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Back on the shot rotation thing, one item I misstated was additional shots per time period. The /castsequence macro ran for 10 seconds less because of the extra mana consumption so its not fair to say it produced 10 fewer shots. It produced the same number of shots per second as the unhasted auto / steady spam but cost 9 mana / sec more doing so.
Here is a spreadsheet using average hit values for auto, steady, arcane, multi taken from a wws of a fully raid buffed MM spec hunter against Morogrim Tidewalker. Arcane actually gets a boost here. tdps is calculated as shot count * shot dmg / time. From this it seems in an unhasted situation auto / steady spam does the same dps as a 1:1.5 rotation while consuming less mana. Adding in haste, the auto / steady spam scales past the /castsequence without changing its mana / sec consumption because the number of specials were already close to being capped. For reference these are the five macros being compared: /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot --- /cast !auto shot /castrandom arcane shot, steady shot --- /cast !auto shot /castrandom multi-shot, arcane shot, steady shot --- /castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, steady shot --- /castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, !auto shot, steady shot, !auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, !auto shot, steady shot edit: added more tests, also found a case where multi/arcane/steady spam produced even more dps but cost 50% more mana. |
Been also wondering, how can you know the dps of /castrandom if you dont know the time you were doing the shots?
Havent been playing for a while so i prolly missed something in the latest patch. Though i werent using "!" In my macro after 2.3 and it worked the same as before. Maybe the problem is the "!".
And what about comparing manual 1:1.5 multi /arcane rotation vs /castrandom macro?
Id say you should also test imp arcane 1:1.5 rotation with /castsequence auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot if theres something wrong with multi shots.
Last edited by Gruknok : 01/17/08 at 4:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
Where are the multishots in the castseq 1.5 macro statistics?
Been also wondering, how can you know the dps of /castrandom if you dont know the time you were doing the shots? Havent been playing for a while so i prolly missed something in the latest patch. Though i werent using "!" In my macro after 2.3 and it worked the same as before. Maybe the problem is the "!". And what about comparing manual 1:1.5 multi /arcane rotation vs /castrandom macro? Id say you should also test imp arcane 1:1.5 rotation with /castsequence auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot if theres something wrong with multi shots. |
Multi-shots - not sure what you mean. It was at the front of the cast sequence. Shot count wise its under the ms column.
dps - used recount to count the number of shots of each type.
1:1.5 castsequence with imp arcane - its in there, right above the ones with multi-shot.
For other types of timing - just go to dr boom and do whatever. use recount to record your shot counts. If you find something that consistently produces more shots in the same time period than are listed in the sheet then you have found an improvement.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
I just did a little reasoning about the value of master tactician relative to barrage, and I'm wondering if someone can check all of my logic and math.
1 point of barrage increases multi-shot's damage by 4% 1 point of MT increases 2% of your shots' damage by ~137-144% (depending on slaying) when it's up, which is roughly 35% of the time {{ Sub-proof 1 - MT uptime: MT lasts 8 seconds. Whenever a shot is fired, there will usually have been 7 shots fired in the last 8 seconds. The probability that MT will be up is therefore 1 - 0.94^7 = 35.1% Or does MT have a hidden cooldown? }} For a 1:1.5 rotation against a single target, multi-shot is 10% of your shots, but it does high damage, so we'll say it's 12% of a hunter's damage, before barrage. Total damage with barrage / Total damage without barrage = 0.88 + 0.12 * 1.04 = 1.0048. MT is up 35% of the time, and 1 point turns 2% of your shots from non-crits to crits when it's up. 0.35*0.02 = 0.007. So MT turns 0.007 of your shots from non-crits to crits, increasing their damage by a factor of 2.37 (non-slaying) to 2.44 (slaying). Let's say that your crit percentage is X (a number between 0 and 1) before master tactician Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = [(X+0.007) * Y + (1-X-0.007)] / [XY + 1-X] where Y is either 2.37 or 2.44, depending on slaying. For a typical X = 0.45 and a middle value of Y = 2.4, then: Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = 1.0049 So the value of 1 point of master tactician is (within a margin of error) the same as the value of 1 point of barrage. However this does not take into account the fact that extra crits from MT give your pet focus, save some mana via TotH, and keep EW up. Have I screwed up somewhere, or should I stay convinced that 0/20/41 is the way to go, and not 0/24/37? |
When I was doing some math of my own, I considered the following:
Say you run a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9 speed bow and 200ms latency. With quiver, this results in a 10 shots taking about 10 seconds. So say in 100 shots, 6% of those proc MT (ignoring that MT might proc again before its duration is over). That's 6 shots, lasting 8 seconds each, for a grand total of 48 seconds of say, 8% extra crit (4/5 MT).
Lets assume your base crit is 35%, so for 48 seconds, you have 43% crit. Since you're shooting 1 shot/second, this amounts to 48 shots * 43%, or 21 shots that crit. The other 52 shots are your normal 35% crit, so 52 shots * 35% = 18 shots.
In total, 18 + 21 = 39 critted shots for a grand total average of 4% extra crit over what you have originally. Since I'm doing this all with whole numbers and some rounding, the actual number is closer to 3%. Once you have the "effective added crit rate" from MT, you can compare the extra damage to barrage, where 1/10 shots in your rotation will have 12% more damage. It's rather late at night, so I can't do that calculation right now.
But like you said, the extra crits give pet focus, Thrill mana back, and EW. IMO, 0/20/41 is better than 0/24/37
I'm looking for some type of calculation to help determine how much raid dps you get from 1 agi. I know I can use Cheeky's to determine how much personal dps I get from an item, I'm trying to find something to compare the raid dps and personal dps of an item. Assume that there are ~3 hunters, 3 rogues, 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 prot warriors.
Are you looking for information regarding raid buffs' affect on you damage? If so, the spreadsheet does have a "buff" tab in which just about every buff/debuff configuration can be added.
Reasonably close estimations for this have been provided further back in this thread. Try searching for posts by Lactose specifically.
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Originally Posted by binky
Are you looking for information regarding raid buffs' affect on you damage? If so, the spreadsheet does have a "buff" tab in which just about every buff/debuff configuration can be added.
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Right now alot of my gear is mostly for personal dps... I just made the switch from BM and I'm looking to start working on SV gear.
@Quig - I'm searching through now to take a look, thx.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Reasonably close estimations for this have been provided further back in this thread. Try searching for posts by Lactose specifically.
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Originally Posted by Lactose
"Hi, whenever my Expose Weakness is up, every ranged / melee attacker against that target gains [Agility]/4 Attack Power. Most ranged / melee attackers gain somewhere between 0.2 and 0.3 effective DPS per Attack Power (dependant of class / spec, most are closer to 0.3).
This means that, whenever Expose Weakness is up, the raid's DPS increases by [Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3. Additionally, the tank is able to produce more threat, possibly allowing for more damage to be dealt by e.g. our casters, who do not benefit directly from Expose Weakness." For example, with 900 Agility and 7 Melee & Ranged attackers on target, 225 AP gained, 67.5 DPS gained per attacker (roughly), ~470 DPS gained for raid. |
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
I just did a little reasoning about the value of master tactician relative to barrage, and I'm wondering if someone can check all of my logic and math.
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Thus, I would not suggest trying to determine an answer with simple math comparing the two skills directly since it is imprecise and ignores many factors. I would suggest using available tools, like Cheeky's Hunter's Spreadsheet, where pretty much all of the variables are accounted.
After the 2.3 patch and my acquisition of some new gear, I did an analysis where I tried various gear combinations (for items current owned), specs (11 different), and rotations to evaluate which was currently best for me. At that time, the MT build worked out best for me across all rotations. Since I was wearing 4 arena pieces, a Barrage build with RWS actually produced more DPS (by about 11 on a 1:5 rotation) but went through mana much more quickly (time to OOM was 18s less at 99 s even with using mana oils) and had a slightly lower average EW proc (by about 5 AP). Since I knew that I would be replacing some of the arena 3 pieces soon (which I have) to lose the multishot bonuses, was having mana problems, and was providing a better average EW buff to the raid, I chose the MT build. (Yes, I realize that when comparing the DPS loss against the raid DPS gain from the EW proc that there is a net loss, but that is made up by time when I am mana deficient and not operating at full throttle. When using a 1:1 rotation to conserve mana, both rotations had almost identical DPS, within 1, but the MT build has 36s more time to OOM and still more average EW proc.)
Thus, in short, I suggest using something like Cheeky's awesome spreadheet with your current gear to evaluate which spec is currently best for you.
QUOTE=giameetj;606461]ISo with the setup I listed about 3 hunter, 3 rogues, 1 fury war, 2 prot war, 1 feral druid, counting all 3 tanks as 1 for dps. I came up with 8(dpsers)*.25(the amount of ap from 1 agi)*.3(dps per 1ap) = .6 dps. So to answer my own question 1agi=~.6dps with my raid makeup.[/quote]
You almost got it. Your calculation is a good estimate with 100% EW uptime. If your uptime is close to 100%, then it is still a suitable estimate, but if it is much lower (such as not having all 3 ranks in EW or a high crit rate), then your estimate is a little high and should be scaled by your EW uptime.
In addition, do not forget the pets for the hunters as well. They also receive the AP boost if they are attacking their targets, which provides a good raid DPS benefit as well.
What I do to evaluate gear choices is I use Cheeky's Spreadsheet. For my current gear selection, I write down the DPS, Time to OOM, EW uptime, and average EW proc. Those are my main factors for evaluation, although I do keep an eye on survivability stats, such as armor, health, and dodge, just to make sure that I maintain acceptable amounts. Then when I try out new pieces of gear, I try to optimize its DPS and EW proc benefits by gem selection and any other gear swapping to get optimal HR or set bonuses. Once I am happy with that optimization, I compare the deltas for the 4 main categories I track and do a tradeoff analysis to choose which is better. I do this analysis for any possible upgrades available to me so that I already know whether I want it or not, and how badly, when it drops.
For example, I currently have the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix. With it, my main stats from Cheeky's spreadsheet assuming full raid buffs are:
DPS: 1198.76
Time to OOM: 160.81s
EW Uptime: 98.77%
Average EW proc: 284.25 AP
Now since we just killed Vashj for the first time last night, our other hunters are foaming at the mount for the Serpent Spine Longbow; however, I do not plan to try to out bid our BMs for it, since it is not an ideal upgrade for a Survival hunter but is a huge upgrade for our BMs. Plugging it into Cheeky's provides the following deltas for me:
DPS: +13.3
Time to OOM: +2.4s
EW Uptime: -0.05%
Average EW proc: -6.08 AP
Hence, although it is a big upgrade for me in personal DPS, it is a downgrade in my total raid DPS contribution as long as there are at least 7 physical DPS on the target, which there usually are. Don't get me wrong, I would still like it for soloing and small groups, but it will help the raid for me to let our BM hunters get it first and it would save me a lot of DKP for items that are better for my raid contribution. If it drops a third time, I will probably take it for cheap.
Until I can get Legionkiller from Supremus, which IMO is the best range weapon currently available for a Survival hunter, I am content with getting the Arcanite Steam Pistol from A'lar if it drops since it is the only other ranged weapon left besides Legionkiller that increases both my DPS and my EW proc and since I should be able to get it for cheap since none of the other hunters want it.
You almost got it. Your calculation is a good estimate with 100% EW uptime. If your uptime is close to 100%, then it is still a suitable estimate, but if it is much lower (such as not having all 3 ranks in EW or a high crit rate), then your estimate is a little high and should be scaled by your EW uptime.
In addition, do not forget the pets for the hunters as well. They also receive the AP boost if they are attacking their targets, which provides a good raid DPS benefit as well.
What I do to evaluate gear choices is I use Cheeky's Spreadsheet. For my current gear selection, I write down the DPS, Time to OOM, EW uptime, and average EW proc. Those are my main factors for evaluation, although I do keep an eye on survivability stats, such as armor, health, and dodge, just to make sure that I maintain acceptable amounts. Then when I try out new pieces of gear, I try to optimize its DPS and EW proc benefits by gem selection and any other gear swapping to get optimal HR or set bonuses. Once I am happy with that optimization, I compare the deltas for the 4 main categories I track and do a tradeoff analysis to choose which is better. I do this analysis for any possible upgrades available to me so that I already know whether I want it or not, and how badly, when it drops.
For example, I currently have the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix. With it, my main stats from Cheeky's spreadsheet assuming full raid buffs are:
DPS: 1198.76
Time to OOM: 160.81s
EW Uptime: 98.77%
Average EW proc: 284.25 AP
Now since we just killed Vashj for the first time last night, our other hunters are foaming at the mount for the Serpent Spine Longbow; however, I do not plan to try to out bid our BMs for it, since it is not an ideal upgrade for a Survival hunter but is a huge upgrade for our BMs. Plugging it into Cheeky's provides the following deltas for me:
DPS: +13.3
Time to OOM: +2.4s
EW Uptime: -0.05%
Average EW proc: -6.08 AP
Hence, although it is a big upgrade for me in personal DPS, it is a downgrade in my total raid DPS contribution as long as there are at least 7 physical DPS on the target, which there usually are. Don't get me wrong, I would still like it for soloing and small groups, but it will help the raid for me to let our BM hunters get it first and it would save me a lot of DKP for items that are better for my raid contribution. If it drops a third time, I will probably take it for cheap.
Until I can get Legionkiller from Supremus, which IMO is the best range weapon currently available for a Survival hunter, I am content with getting the Arcanite Steam Pistol from A'lar if it drops since it is the only other ranged weapon left besides Legionkiller that increases both my DPS and my EW proc and since I should be able to get it for cheap since none of the other hunters want it.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Now since we just killed Vashj for the first time last night, our other hunters are foaming at the mount for the Serpent Spine Longbow; however, I do not plan to try to out bid our BMs for it
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Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Multi-shots - not sure what you mean. It was at the front of the cast sequence. Shot count wise its under the ms column.
dps - used recount to count the number of shots of each type. 1:1.5 castsequence with imp arcane - its in there, right above the ones with multi-shot. For other types of timing - just go to dr boom and do whatever. use recount to record your shot counts. If you find something that consistently produces more shots in the same time period than are listed in the sheet then you have found an improvement. |
Your 1:1.5 arcane rotation is also missing one autoshot after arcane, But its probably mistake in the post. 4/5 or 5/5 imp arcane rotation with 2.9 weapon has the highest shooting rate for a survival in my experience. Dont know how can you get higher since it uses the global cooldown close to 100% anbd has close to 0 autoshot clipping. But multishot damage is higher than arcane so the dps diference betwean 1:1.5 arcane and 1:1.5 arcae+multi depends on machine, connection and Curse of Shadows.
Last edited by Gruknok : 01/19/08 at 8:53 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by giameetj
I'm looking for some type of calculation to help determine how much raid dps you get from 1 agi. I know I can use Cheeky's to determine how much personal dps I get from an item, I'm trying to find something to compare the raid dps and personal dps of an item. Assume that there are ~3 hunters, 3 rogues, 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 prot warriors.
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1*1.15(LR)*1.10(BoK) = ~1.27 Agi
1.27 agi will be roughly equal 2.5 AP for you so 2.5 * 0.3 = 0.75 Personal DPS with 0.3 beeing the constant for calculating average dps of a physical dps class that is gained from ap. Can find more about it somewhere her on the forum.
1.27 / 4 = 0.32 AP via expose weakness, raid with 8 other physical dps classes will gain 8*0.35*0.3=0.77 DPS from expose weakness. 2 prot warr dps would be roughly 2*0.32*0.1(~3 times less than a physical dps class)=0.06 DPS
So the raid dps gained from 1 agi will be roughly 0.75+0.77+0.06=1.6 DPS.
Last edited by Gruknok : 01/19/08 at 8:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
I count it this way:
1*1.15(LR)*1.25(BoK) = ~1.4 Agi 1.4 agi will be roughly equal 2.8 AP for you so 2.8 * 0.3 = 0.84 Personal DPS with 0.3 beeing the constant for calculating average dps of a physical dps class that is gained from ap. Can find more about it somewhere her on the forum. 1.4 / 4 = 0.35 AP via expose weakness, raid with 8 other physical dps classes will gain 8*0.35*0.3=0.84 DPS from expose weakness. 2 prot warr dps would be roughly 2*0.35*0.1(~3 times less than a physical dps class)=0.07 DPS So the raid dps gained from 1 agi will be roughly 0.84+0.84+0.07=1.75 DPS. |
1*1.15(LR)*1.10(BoK) = ~1.27 Agi
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Originally Posted by Jakt
I'm pretty sure that should be:
1*1.15(LR)*1.10(BoK) = ~1.27 Agi |
Ye :/
Rather than retype a conversation ill just repost what has been discussed between Zek and I via a private messege as it has now become relevant to the thread.
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Originally Posted by Sapa
Upper formula with * .3 or .4 should give you rough estimate of EW contribution if you had 100% uptime. Lets say you have 1000agi. 1. That's 250 AP EW. 2. Rogue spreadsheet says 250ap bonus = 100dps@T6 gear (made up the number) 3. You have 2 rogues. One doing 2000 and one 1500 dps, same spec, equal gear. 4. You must move allot and your uptime suffers (80% uptime). Did you contribute 200 dps out of that 3500? No, uptime is not 100%. Was it 160 (80%)? No again, those rogues are not robots from spreadsheet. What needs to be done is finding % of dps increase for each Physical class by EW. And calculate raid gain for each from there to be precise. For me constant (250ap) EW would be 75dps increase in spreadsheet, that equals to 4,42% of my (personal, no pet) dps. And if I'm doing 1200 personal dps (instead 1700 from spreadsheet) ... that 75dps lowers to 53dps gain from EW. |
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
QUOTE=giameetj;606461]Until I can get Legionkiller from Supremus, which IMO is the best range weapon currently available for a Survival hunter, I am content with getting the Arcanite Steam Pistol from A'lar if it drops since it is the only other ranged weapon left besides Legionkiller that increases both my DPS and my EW proc and since I should be able to get it for cheap since none of the other hunters want it.
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I currently use Legionkiller, but I believe that Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker is the best survival ranged weapon at the moment.
Not only is it s fast weapon, which survival hunters need, it can potentially have 32-36 agility, which is of huge benefit to a raid. Just plugging in the weapon compared to Legionkiller gave me around 60-80 dps more.
Fast weapon and survival hunters doesn't work. Barrel blade long rifle has a lot of agi indeed, but would force you to a 1:1 rotation or major clipping.
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Originally Posted by Gruknok
The ammount of multishots of 1:1.5 /castsequence macro and /castrandom macro duration are shown as "?" in your chart so i was wondering how accurate is the dps there then?
Your 1:1.5 arcane rotation is also missing one autoshot after arcane, But its probably mistake in the post. 4/5 or 5/5 imp arcane rotation with 2.9 weapon has the highest shooting rate for a survival in my experience. Dont know how can you get higher since it uses the global cooldown close to 100% anbd has close to 0 autoshot clipping. But multishot damage is higher than arcane so the dps diference betwean 1:1.5 arcane and 1:1.5 arcae+multi depends on machine, connection and Curse of Shadows. |
A 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9ish speed weapon has some unused gcd in it that adds up. Over 90 seconds its about 12 missed specials - 120dps if you could get them all in there.
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Originally Posted by Gurth
...but would force you to a 1:1 rotation or major clipping.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] is now awesome.
With the "new" mechanics of Steady and Autoshot, my WWS parses are showing Steady-Steady-Auto taking about 3.2 seconds to fire on average, and Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto about 5.55 seconds to fire on average. Since the shots-per second are about the same, and Steady does better per-shot damage, that means the Ashtongue Talisman is now uber, even for Survival hunters.
At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 8 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%.
So the Talisman is worth about 184 AP, making it equal to or better than any other trinket.
With the "new" mechanics of Steady and Autoshot, my WWS parses are showing Steady-Steady-Auto taking about 3.2 seconds to fire on average, and Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto about 5.55 seconds to fire on average. Since the shots-per second are about the same, and Steady does better per-shot damage, that means the Ashtongue Talisman is now uber, even for Survival hunters.
At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 8 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%.
So the Talisman is worth about 184 AP, making it equal to or better than any other trinket.
Last edited by Trohck : 01/24/08 at 3:01 AM. Reason: Typo
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Please let your BM Hunters know that's a bad idea. I have a [Serpent Spine Longbow], and it's great for PvP. When I zone into a raid instance I'm packing the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle]. (And I'm a Troll with +1% crit with the bow, the gun's speed is just that much more of an advantage.)
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I even used your marvelous spreadsheet to provide them the DPS and time to OOM information for different rotations using the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle], their current weapons, and [Serpent Spine Longbow]. The data to me indicated that [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] was better.
One of the BMs does not have [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle], so upgrading the [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] to [Serpent Spine Longbow] is an upgrade for him. However, the other does have [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] but continues to use [Ancient Amani Longbow]. I have provided him the data and my suggestion, but it is his character to play as he wishes, so I have left it at that.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
I disagree with you.
I currently use Legionkiller, but I believe that Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker is the best survival ranged weapon at the moment. Not only is it s fast weapon, which survival hunters need, it can potentially have 32-36 agility, which is of huge benefit to a raid. Just plugging in the weapon compared to Legionkiller gave me around 60-80 dps more. |
1) My guild is not big enough to kill Doomwalker by ourselves. Early on we killed him a couple of times with other guilds, but I do not believe that we have plans anytime soon to kill him again since we are focused on getting into T6 content and then trying to get through it. So I believe that my chances of acquiring [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] as being very slim, so I really do not consider it as an option.
2) Even if it was an option, I still believe that [Legionkiller] is better for me for overall raid DPS, at least at my current gearing. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, the best DPS rotation using [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] was still the 1:5 with 1231.33 DPS, 119.58s to OOM, 99.19% EW uptime, and 289.55 AP average on EW proc. In comparison, the 1:5 rotation using [Legionkiller] resulted in 1289.58 DPS, 119.62s to OOM, 99.13% EW uptime, and 285.92 AP average on EW proc.
From this analysis, [Legionkiller] is clearly superior, since time to OOM is about identical and the 58.25 personal DPS gain is greater than the 3.63 AP average gain on EW proc from [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] since it would require 54 (58.25/(3.63*.3)=53.49) physical DPS to be in the raid and on the same target as me to make up for the personal DPS gain from [Legionkiller]. Since that is clearly impossible in 25 man raid groups, which typically have around 7-15 physical DPS with pets, [Legionkiller] wins.
Now, if I add on some haste gear, the [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] may become better than [Legionkiller]. However, all of my current haste gear lowers my DPS instead of increasing it.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] is now awesome.
With the "new" mechanics of Steady and Autoshot, my WWS parses are showing Steady-Steady-Auto taking about 3.2 seconds to fire on average, and Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto about 5.55 seconds to fire on average. Since the shots-per second are about the same, and Steady does better per-shot damage, that means the Ashtongue Talisman is now uber, even for Survival hunters. At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 5 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%. So the Talisman is worth about 184 AP, making it equal to or better than any other trinket. |
Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Couple things:
1) My guild is not big enough to kill Doomwalker by ourselves. Early on we killed him a couple of times with other guilds, but I do not believe that we have plans anytime soon to kill him again since we are focused on getting into T6 content and then trying to get through it. So I believe that my chances of acquiring [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] as being very slim, so I really do not consider it as an option. 2) Even if it was an option, I still believe that [Legionkiller] is better for me for overall raid DPS, at least at my current gearing. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, the best DPS rotation using [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] was still the 1:5 with 1231.33 DPS, 119.58s to OOM, 99.19% EW uptime, and 289.55 AP average on EW proc. In comparison, the 1:5 rotation using [Legionkiller] resulted in 1289.58 DPS, 119.62s to OOM, 99.13% EW uptime, and 285.92 AP average on EW proc. From this analysis, [Legionkiller] is clearly superior, since time to OOM is about identical and the 58.25 personal DPS gain is greater than the 3.63 AP average gain on EW proc from [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] since it would require 54 (58.25/(3.63*.3)=53.49) physical DPS to be in the raid and on the same target as me to make up for the personal DPS gain from [Legionkiller]. Since that is clearly impossible in 25 man raid groups, which typically have around 7-15 physical DPS with pets, [Legionkiller] wins. Now, if I add on some haste gear, the [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] may become better than [Legionkiller]. However, all of my current haste gear lowers my DPS instead of increasing it. |
2. Yes, it varies greatly depending on your gear, and your race. For dwarves that extra 1% crit from using a gun, can make a difference.
On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect.
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Expose weakness procs off a crit. You dont crit when you miss. Id say it has some affect on it.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Expose weakness procs off a crit. You dont crit when you miss. Id say it has some affect on it.
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See Attack table - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft for more information.
Ack. Never mind. I need to drink coffee before I post.
I've been using Cheeky's spreadsheet for a while now, but as I get into end game territory I find myself really confused about how to put together the ideal gear set. Things that look like upgrades from one item to the other, aren't always upgrades, until you get another piece of gear that changes something else that then makes the first item, in fact, an upgrade once again. For example, I have at home a list of 'ideal gear' that includes T5 chest. On the spread sheet, it increases my dps from the Ranger Generals. But, given that I don't have the other gear yet from that set up, right now, that chest piece is a decrease in dps for me. >.<
It's making my head hurt. I like to play to the best of my ability, and do want to put the effort into making sure I am researching the best options, but all the flipping in and out, with different gems and different that runs me into circles.
I was hoping that I could get a few end game raiders (BT/Hyjal complete) folks could just raise their hands and post here, or in pm, so I can check out your armory links and talents and what not. And, if you wanted to be so extra kind as to look at my own current set up and tell me where I need to make changes, that'd be even better! Mostly, I am trying to figure out what ranged weapon I should be aiming for, and what to do with my shot rotation. Before 2.3 I was set very well rotation wise with the 1:1.5 (ImpArcane) and I am still trying to resolve the issues with that. (I keep getting arcanes sneaking in between the steady-arcane portion every 2-3 rounds).
Thanks!
It's making my head hurt. I like to play to the best of my ability, and do want to put the effort into making sure I am researching the best options, but all the flipping in and out, with different gems and different that runs me into circles.
I was hoping that I could get a few end game raiders (BT/Hyjal complete) folks could just raise their hands and post here, or in pm, so I can check out your armory links and talents and what not. And, if you wanted to be so extra kind as to look at my own current set up and tell me where I need to make changes, that'd be even better! Mostly, I am trying to figure out what ranged weapon I should be aiming for, and what to do with my shot rotation. Before 2.3 I was set very well rotation wise with the 1:1.5 (ImpArcane) and I am still trying to resolve the issues with that. (I keep getting arcanes sneaking in between the steady-arcane portion every 2-3 rounds).
Thanks!
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
I was hoping that I could get a few end game raiders (BT/Hyjal complete) folks could just raise their hands and post here, or in pm, so I can check out your armory links and talents and what not. And, if you wanted to be so extra kind as to look at my own current set up and tell me where I need to make changes, that'd be even better! Mostly, I am trying to figure out what ranged weapon I should be aiming for, and what to do with my shot rotation. Before 2.3 I was set very well rotation wise with the 1:1.5 (ImpArcane) and I am still trying to resolve the issues with that. (I keep getting arcanes sneaking in between the steady-arcane portion every 2-3 rounds). Thanks! |
You'll find my WWS at Wow Web Stats
If you're looking for a max dps, I think my best Gorefiend dps (he's by far the best baseline for BT/Hyjal dps comparisons) is Wow Web Stats with 1793 dps. Group was Feral Druid, Resto Shaman, BM Hunter, Me (Survival Hunter), and someone else who didn't give me any buffs.
I'm essentially done with gear now, so what you're looking at is close to what I'd ideally like to enter sunwell in. Only upgrade for me still is Madness of the Betrayer, and considering our droprate on it... you get the picture.
As far as the issue with the shot rotation macros now, I find that sometimes an auto shot sneaks in before my arcane shot forcing me to wait another auto shot cooldown before my macro continues. In these instances, I throw in a multishot, which'll fit perfectly while you wait for the auto shot cooldown to come up. To illustrate:
Normal Rotation: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady etc
Problem Rotation: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Auto Arcane .............. Auto Steady etc
becomes: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Auto Arcane **Multi** Auto Steady etc
It's not quite as efficient as the pure 5 shot rotation, but it's a simple fix. On the rare instances where it happens twice in a row so multishot is still on cooldown, I'll usually take the time to throw out a scorpid sting to refresh it, or perhaps a mend pet, etc. Feel free to fit anything you choose in those rare moments, but fortunately they don't happen too often.
I'll take a look at your gear when I get the chance (at work currently) but for now, I hope this helps!
Edit: Doesn't look like I logged out in dps trinkets, I currently use Berserker's Call from Zul'jin and Hourglass of the Unraveler from Black Morass.
Last edited by SomeRandomIdiot : 01/22/08 at 6:21 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Expose weakness procs off a crit. You dont crit when you miss. Id say it has some affect on it.
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It is true that EW procs off a crit and that you cannot crit if you miss the target (mutually exclusive conditions) and that missing has some effect on the average EW proc. However, the rest of the story is the effect of missing shots on EW is very small since you do not have to crit and hit every shot to keep the proc up. You only need to crit one shot every 7 seconds to keep it up. Assuming a 2.9 speed range weapon and no haste effect beyond the quiver/ammo pouch and a 1:5 rotation, shots per second is 0.92. Thus in 7 seconds, 6.44 shots can occur. Only one of these need to be a crit to keep EW up. Theoretically, you could have 100% crit rate and a 17% hit rate and still keep EW up.
Being hit capped is still very important though since it affects your DPS.
If you are way below the hit cap, adding in HR items, even if they slightly inferior DPS items if you didn't have to worry about HR, usually result in an increase in DPS since the increased DPS by missing less makes up for the decreased DPS from hitting for less on each shot on average. However, once you get within a few points under the cap and your miss chance is very low, you can start see that the better DPS items win over adding more HR.
As an illustration, my hunter currently raids at one point below the hit cap, providing a 99.96% hit chance, which is sufficient. I have 1278.27 DPS and average EW proc of 285.27 with a fully raid buffed crit rate of 51.91% with abother 3.63% on average from Master Tactician. Now as a basis to illustrate the effect of HR, if I replace my [Necklace of the Deep] with [Saberclaw Talisman], my [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] with [Rift Stalker Helm] (which I do not have) and replace 4 [Delicate Living Ruby] (+8 agi) in a gem locations that do not provide any DPS socket bonus each with a [Glinting Noble Topaz] (+4 agi and +4 hit), my HR is capped with 1261.51 DPS and 274.18 average EW proc. The DPS and EW proc loss here is because I gave up better DPS and agi items and gems for lesser items, while roughly maintaining HR. This was done mostly to setup for the illustration of hit rating.
Now let me replace one [Glinting Noble Topaz] with a [Shifting Nightseye] (+4 agi and +6 sta) so that nothing changes DPS wise except for my HR (agi is constant). My new hit chance is 99.77% with 1260.06 DPS (-1.45) and 274.18 average EW proc (-0.00). As can be seen, the loss of the first 4 HR has very little impact on my DPS and average EW proc.
But I have 3 more [Glinting Noble Topaz] that I can replace with a [Shifting Nightseye] to further illustrate. I can illustrate further but just subtracting 4HR from my stats. This data is (with including the first -4 HR):
-0 HR: 100.00% with 1261.51 DPS and 274.18 average EW proc
-4 HR: 99.77% with 1260.06 DPS (-1.45) and 274.18 average EW proc (-0.00).
-8 HR: 99.52% with 1258.44 DPS (-3.07, -1.62 more) and 274.17 average EW proc (-0.01).
-12 HR: 99.27% with 1256.81 DPS (-4.70, -1.63 more) and 274.17 average EW proc (-0.01, -0.00 more).
-16 HR: 99.01% with 1255.18 DPS (-6.33, -1.63 more) and 274.17 average EW proc (-0.01, -0.00 more).
-20 HR: 98.86% with 1253.56 DPS (-8.05, -1.62 more) and 274.16 average EW proc (-0.02, -0.01 more).
-24 HR: 98.51% with 1251.93 DPS (-9.58, -1.53 more) and 274.16 average EW proc (-0.02, -0.00 more).
-28 HR: 98.25% with 1250.30 DPS (-11.21, -1.63 more) and 274.16 average EW proc (-0.02, -0.00 more).
-32 HR: 98.00% with 1248.67 DPS (-12.84, -1.63 more) and 274.15 average EW proc (-0.03, -0.01 more).
-36 HR: 97.74% with 1247.05 DPS (-14.46, -1.62 more) and 274.15 average EW proc (-0.03, -0.00 more).
(stopping here since no reason to be 40 or more HR below cap IMO)
As can be seen, losing the first 4 or so HR from the cap has less effect that lossing more HR. After the first couple HR loss, the DPS loss per single point of HR loss is a constant slope of about -0.4 with my character (may be different on others). However, the loss of HR on my EW proc is minimal. Even after a loss of 36 HR, the loss of average EW proc is only 0.03, a -0.01% change. This is not even noticeable. Of course, these numbers are dependent on my relatively high crit rate. With lower crit rates, the effect of missing shots is a little larger on your average EW proc, but still not significant for a standard crit rating for what a survival hunter should have for entering 25-man raid instances. Even if I totally cancel all my HR (-95) to have a 94% hit chance, the impact on my EW proc is only -0.06.
Now to go back to the original question, agility is definitely more important than hit since it increases your crit rating, AP, armor, dodge %, and average EW proc, but you shouldn't neglect your HR either and should still try to keep it at or near the cap. It is fine though to go a few points below the cap if it helps you to add better gear that improves your personal DPS or average EW proc.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 01/22/08 at 7:25 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
As can be seen, losing the first 4 or so HR from the cap has less effect that lossing more HR. After the first couple HR loss, the DPS loss per single point of HR loss is a constant slope of about -0.4 with my character (may be different on others). However, the loss of HR on my EW proc is minimal. Even after a loss of 36 HR, the loss of average EW proc is only 0.03, a -0.01% change. This is not even noticeable. Of course, these numbers are dependent on my relatively high crit rate. With lower crit rates, the effect of missing shots is a little larger on your average EW proc, but still not significant for a standard crit rating for what a survival hunter should have for entering 25-man raid instances. Even if I totally cancel all my HR (-95) to have a 94% hit chance, the impact on my EW proc is only -0.06.
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Last edited by Cheeky : 01/22/08 at 10:18 PM. Reason: Spelled Whitefyst's name wrong.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
For anyone wondering why Expose Weakness changed at all based on hit rating, it's because Master Tactician is effected by hit %, and that influences your effective crit rate. The changes are very, very minor, as can be seen from Whutefyst's numbers.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
so i recently started using the */cast !Auto Shot /cast steady shot* macro, i have found it to be very good.
im a survival hunter and using this instead of my auto, steady, arcane, multi, rotation has improved my dps
i was reading a thread aboout agi gem vs ap gems for BM hunter for a friend, and i saw something that interested me.
someone posted about the way base weapon and ammo dmg in calculated and that the 12 dmg scope can also crit.
as a surv hunter i got 38.15% crit unbuffed and 2268 ap with AOTH .. ofc i have the 28CR scope atm. useing the 3.0 speed bow of archimond. 0 / 20 / 41 spec .. down to 5/5 MT. armory Nosleep on ghostlands eu relm if my gear and or spec is what make a difference in all of this.
my question is this....
with my crit lvl (or any crit lvl tbh ) what is better? 28 crit scope or 12 dmg scope?
i cant decide if the 28 crit scope is giving me more dps than the 12 dmg scope would. considering my exposed weakness is up 100% even without raid buffs, then my crit % for the basis of keeping my exposed weakness up is not an issue.
my thinking is this.. does 12 dmg scope effect all shots?.. and if not, what is not effected?
would the extra dmg per shot (including that the scope dmg can also crit ) = more dps than the 28 CR scope?
would it be better to use the crit scope with the *!auto shot* macro but better to use the 12 dmg scope with the full multi, arcane, steady rotation?
bascially im a maths noob when it comes to this stuff and would love any input by ppl who can or have done the maths :P
ty in advance
im a survival hunter and using this instead of my auto, steady, arcane, multi, rotation has improved my dps
i was reading a thread aboout agi gem vs ap gems for BM hunter for a friend, and i saw something that interested me.
someone posted about the way base weapon and ammo dmg in calculated and that the 12 dmg scope can also crit.
as a surv hunter i got 38.15% crit unbuffed and 2268 ap with AOTH .. ofc i have the 28CR scope atm. useing the 3.0 speed bow of archimond. 0 / 20 / 41 spec .. down to 5/5 MT. armory Nosleep on ghostlands eu relm if my gear and or spec is what make a difference in all of this.
my question is this....
with my crit lvl (or any crit lvl tbh ) what is better? 28 crit scope or 12 dmg scope?
i cant decide if the 28 crit scope is giving me more dps than the 12 dmg scope would. considering my exposed weakness is up 100% even without raid buffs, then my crit % for the basis of keeping my exposed weakness up is not an issue.
my thinking is this.. does 12 dmg scope effect all shots?.. and if not, what is not effected?
would the extra dmg per shot (including that the scope dmg can also crit ) = more dps than the 28 CR scope?
would it be better to use the crit scope with the *!auto shot* macro but better to use the 12 dmg scope with the full multi, arcane, steady rotation?
bascially im a maths noob when it comes to this stuff and would love any input by ppl who can or have done the maths :P
ty in advance
Last edited by nosleep : 01/23/08 at 7:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
... I'm 5/5 imp arcane shot, my current macro is /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1). ...
As far as the issue with the shot rotation macros now, I find that sometimes an auto shot sneaks in before my arcane shot forcing me to wait another auto shot cooldown before my macro continues. In these instances, I throw in a multishot, which'll fit perfectly while you wait for the auto shot cooldown to come up. To illustrate: Normal Rotation: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady etc Problem Rotation: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Auto Arcane .............. Auto Steady etc becomes: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Auto Arcane **Multi** Auto Steady etc It's not quite as efficient as the pure 5 shot rotation, but it's a simple fix. On the rare instances where it happens twice in a row so multishot is still on cooldown, I'll usually take the time to throw out a scorpid sting to refresh it, or perhaps a mend pet, etc. Feel free to fit anything you choose in those rare moments, but fortunately they don't happen too often. ... |
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1)
Auto shot will happen anyway after arcane with this sequence, but macro will not wait if it happens at wrong time.
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Originally Posted by nosleep
so i recently started using the */cast !Auto Shot /cast steady shot* macro, i have found it to be very good.
im a survival hunter and using this instead of my auto, steady, arcane, multi, rotation has improved my dps i was reading a thread aboout agi gem vs ap gems for BM hunter for a friend, and i saw something that interested me. someone posted about the way base weapon and ammo dmg in calculated and that the 12 dmg scope can also crit. as a surv hunter i got 38.15% crit unbuffed and 2268 ap with AOTH .. ofc i have the 28CR scope atm. useing the 3.0 speed bow of archimond. 0 / 20 / 41 spec .. down to 5/5 MT. armory Nosleep on ghostlands eu relm if my gear and or spec is what make a difference in all of this. my question is this.... with my crit lvl (or any crit lvl tbh ) what is better? 28 crit scope or 12 dmg scope? i cant decide if the 28 crit scope is giving me more dps than the 12 dmg scope would. considering my exposed weakness is up 100% even without raid buffs, then my crit % for the basis of keeping my exposed weakness up is not an issue. my thinking is this.. does 12 dmg scope effect all shots?.. and if not, what is not effected? would the extra dmg per shot (including that the scope dmg can also crit ) = more dps than the 28 CR scope? would it be better to use the crit scope with the *!auto shot* macro but better to use the 12 dmg scope with the full multi, arcane, steady rotation? bascially im a maths noob when it comes to this stuff and would love any input by ppl who can or have done the maths :P ty in advance |
By punching in insane values in the DPS spreadsheet hand-adjust area, I've found the point in crit% where the [Khorium Scope] outperforms the [Stabilized Eternium Scope] is when your crit rate is at about 95%. This is when using a Priority rotation, so Multi-Shot is included. (Base 41/20/0 build, T5 gearing level - minus the extra 1469 crit rating.) I don't think a full Survival build with a 1:1.5 rotation will see a huge difference.
Always, always use the +crit scope for PvE. (The point of inflection for PvP depends heavily upon the target resilience.)
haha 95% , ok cool :P
tyvm for ur help dude
ile stick to what i got then :P
tyvm for ur help dude
ile stick to what i got then :P
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Feel free to check out my armory, I love my talent spec at the moment (although it's definitely a bit more frustrating since 2.3 messed with rotations). I'm 5/5 imp arcane shot, my current macro is /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1). I try to strike a balance between pure agility for the raid buff and personal dps, since I believe that not only should a survival hunter benefit the raid though their expose weakness, but that they should also carry their weight dpswise as well. I've also chosen to drop Thrill of the Hunt to instead grab 3/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization, because while I can always drink more and/or better mana potions, there's nothing I can do consumable-wise to provide me with 3% more ranged damage.
You'll find my WWS at Wow Web Stats If you're looking for a max dps, I think my best Gorefiend dps (he's by far the best baseline for BT/Hyjal dps comparisons) is Wow Web Stats with 1793 dps. Group was Feral Druid, Resto Shaman, BM Hunter, Me (Survival Hunter), and someone else who didn't give me any buffs. I'm essentially done with gear now, so what you're looking at is close to what I'd ideally like to enter sunwell in. Only upgrade for me still is Madness of the Betrayer, and considering our droprate on it... you get the picture. As far as the issue with the shot rotation macros now, I find that sometimes an auto shot sneaks in before my arcane shot forcing me to wait another auto shot cooldown before my macro continues. In these instances, I throw in a multishot, which'll fit perfectly while you wait for the auto shot cooldown to come up. To illustrate: Normal Rotation: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady etc Problem Rotation: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Auto Arcane .............. Auto Steady etc becomes: Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady Auto Steady Auto Arcane **Multi** Auto Steady etc It's not quite as efficient as the pure 5 shot rotation, but it's a simple fix. On the rare instances where it happens twice in a row so multishot is still on cooldown, I'll usually take the time to throw out a scorpid sting to refresh it, or perhaps a mend pet, etc. Feel free to fit anything you choose in those rare moments, but fortunately they don't happen too often. I'll take a look at your gear when I get the chance (at work currently) but for now, I hope this helps! Edit: Doesn't look like I logged out in dps trinkets, I currently use Berserker's Call from Zul'jin and Hourglass of the Unraveler from Black Morass. |
What do you use to keep your mana up? I just went to dual wielding (Blade of Infamy and Netherbane) so I could do dual mana oils. I use Fel Mana potions too, but I still run out of mana quite a bit if I have no spriest.
I'm going to stare at your armory some more and jot down what you have where. It looks like the same stuff I had on my 'ideal' list. And I was going after Bristleblitz as my upgrade to Sunfury, so woot.
Thanks again! <3
Last edited by lilwolfe : 01/23/08 at 12:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
To fix problem edit your macro to
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1) Auto shot will happen anyway after arcane with this sequence, but macro will not wait if it happens at wrong time. |
Lilwolfe-
I keep a pure 1:1.5 rotation when I'm not affected by any haste buffs. In the case of Heroism, or Rapid Fire, I'll switch to a 1:1 rotation. What you're seeing on Gorefiend is that the fight is short enough where the periods of 1:1 are making a significant impact on my ratios. I use mana oils on a few fights (think Council) but don't find I need them on many. Then again, my raid leader has been giving us hunters a shaman lately- I remember back before that happened, I used a lot more of them.
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Originally Posted by lilwolfe
What do you use to keep your mana up? I just went to dual wielding (Blade of Infamy and Netherbane) so I could do dual mana oils. I use Fel Mana potions too, but I still run out of mana quite a bit if I have no spriest.
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1) A druid with LotP: The extra 5% crit not only helps your personal DPS but also all your abilities that trigger from crit, namely your EW but also your TotH, if you have it, Kill Command, etc.
2) A shammy (preferrably enhancement) with Mana Spring, GoA, and SoE. The 30 mp5 from Mana Spring is a comparable regen to what you get from a shadow priest, but the shammy's other totems really help your personal DPS and your overall raid contribution. A fully ranked GoA, provides you with 88 agi base or 111.3 after LR and BoK. This is +111.3 AP and 2.78% crit to you and 25.5 AP to your pet, without factoring in the benefits from EW. For a good overall crit rate and EW uptime, this is also an additional about 27.8 AP average on EW proc. The SoE, when fully ranked, provides 98 strength to your pet, which equates to around 215 AP for your pet.
Now there are others that could be added to the group to help a Survival hunter even more, but that usually doesn't happen since this type of group is ideal to get the rogues into, but if we only have a single rogue on, then a BM hunter gets added into the group to get the benefits and to also add to the groups DPS with FI.
So with that group make up, here is the mana regen I receive:
- BoW for 41 to 49 mp5 depending on whether it is improved or not
- 2 mana oils - one on each weapon - for 24-28 mp5
- mana spring totem for 30 mp5
- mageblood potion for 12-16 mp5 for my guardian potion (unless on a learning fight, in which case I flask so I do not have to redo pots after each death, I use Elixer of Major Agility as battle elixer)
- mana pots, preferrably fel mana but super mana if none available
That totals to 107-123 mp5, plus whatever mana is received from the mana pots.
Other items that help mana regen:
- mana talents: I do not have Efficiency since I place the ranks in IHM instead to provide the 110 AP for the melee as well as us hunters and since TotH is much more effective and talent point efficient at high crit levels. 5/5 in Efficiency only provides 10% mana savings while the 2/3 I have in TotH provides 13.7%. Of course, if you do not need or want IHM, might as well put the points in Efficiency.
- Judgement of Wisdom if you can get a pally to do it, although it usually is not a priority (at least not in our raids)
- AoV - obviously if mana is getting low, it is better to switch aspects and lose that 155 AP than to go OOM. I often use AoV in certain easier phases of fights, such as Vashj phase 1, to try to maintain a high mana pool in preparation for the more difficult phases in which I need to be at maximum DPS.
- Downgrading rotations: I usually raid with a 1:5 rotation, which uses tons of mana. If mana is getting tight despite everything else, I can downgrade to a 1:3 rotation and still do decent DPS while not using as much mana. Finally, if the mana situation gets desperate, which it usually doesn't, I can always fall back to a 1:1 rotation until I can pot.
Yeah, I dream at night of perfect hunter groups, but it'll never happen. Hunters are tools to boost other folks dps, not dps that should be getting boosts. At least, that's how it feels. I r pawn.
We have a mage group that is 3-4 mages, spriest and elemental shaman.
Phys group that gets the BM hunter which is the feral druid, rogues, dps warrior and enhancement shaman.
Tank group gets other phys. dps guys and maybe a tree druid.
Surv hunter gets healing paladins, warlocks, mages that didn't fit into the mage group, etc. Basically the left over pool. Unless we have a 2nd spriest, I usually end up in a group that gives me nothing, and I give nothing back to in return so I do what I can to keep up.
Could that also be why my average shot damage is lower? Lack of crit and lack of BM damage bonus, GOA, etc?
We have a mage group that is 3-4 mages, spriest and elemental shaman.
Phys group that gets the BM hunter which is the feral druid, rogues, dps warrior and enhancement shaman.
Tank group gets other phys. dps guys and maybe a tree druid.
Surv hunter gets healing paladins, warlocks, mages that didn't fit into the mage group, etc. Basically the left over pool. Unless we have a 2nd spriest, I usually end up in a group that gives me nothing, and I give nothing back to in return so I do what I can to keep up.
Could that also be why my average shot damage is lower? Lack of crit and lack of BM damage bonus, GOA, etc?
Hello
I've been trying to up my dps as SV, but i can't seem to fix it, anyone know what i might be doing wrong? gear wise, i use the 1.1.5 rotation.
Thanks
Infiltrator Ysera
I've been trying to up my dps as SV, but i can't seem to fix it, anyone know what i might be doing wrong? gear wise, i use the 1.1.5 rotation.
Thanks
Infiltrator Ysera
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Originally Posted by lockebelmont
Hello
I've been trying to up my dps as SV, but i can't seem to fix it, anyone know what i might be doing wrong? gear wise, i use the 1.1.5 rotation. Thanks Infiltrator Ysera |
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Originally Posted by nosleep
Ok Kaubel, im confused.
what did i do or say thats so wrong? i thought it was funny that you need 95% crit to make 1 scope better than the other. i said tyvm to the person who posted the answer to my question. i stated that i will continue using the 28 CR scope. i cant see why you would send me an email about this. you dont wish to recieve emails so this is the only way i know how to get a response from you about this. plz explain. |
And, to keep myself on topic, regarding lockebelmont, it's almost impossible for us to determine what you're doing wrong unless you provide us with some sort of parser results or wow web stats. Your gear, gems, and spec seem reasonable, so I'm going to presume your shot rotation is what is hurting your dps. Please describe your rotation if you could, perhaps providing a macro that you are using?
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Originally Posted by Namarus
I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with a 1:1 rotation.
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Originally Posted by Trohck
At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 5 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%.
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As an aside, that should be 1 - (.85)^5 = 55.6% uptime, meaning you are getting an average of 153 AP.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
1. If you guys are sitting outside BT waiting for the raid group to form up, there is no reason not to kill doomwalker while he is up.
2. Yes, it varies greatly depending on your gear, and your race. For dwarves that extra 1% crit from using a gun, can make a difference. On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect. |
2) No, no it really doesn't, unless your gear consists of tremendous amounts of haste. The difference in shot speed creates a fundamental difference between the weapons. 1:1 is much easier and I like to use it, but it is not actually superior to 3:2.
I don't mind dropping hit rating below cap so long as I'm getting reasonable compensation for it. At 2/3 Surefooted, I even have the option to rearrange points to get a little more if I really need it, but I think people should be slightly below cap rather than slightly over it. Wasted itemization points~
giameetj - it won't remain that way. It looks hard to get below cap when you're in Kara, but hit rating gear dries up pretty quickly. I think Blizzard heard us complaining during Kara and dumped most of the hit rating from their itemizations.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Expose weakness procs off a crit. You dont crit when you miss. Id say it has some affect on it.
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Originally Posted by Arcazua
uh, what? How do you have 5 steady shots in 5 seconds when it takes 7.5 just to clear the GCD? You said you had 3 shots in 3.2 seconds, 1 of which was autoshot. That would mean you are averaging a steady shot once per 1.6. That means you have 5 shots per EIGHT seconds, which is the duration of the trinket's effect. Is that what you meant?
As an aside, that should be 1 - (.85)^5 = 55.6% uptime, meaning you are getting an average of 153 AP. |
As far as uptime goes, I'm not 100% confident in my probability/statistics, so I wrote a quick computer simulation, must have been flawed.
Regardless, 153 average AP is still equal to or better than most trinkets.
Heh, wrote that last reply without even noticing page 36 somehow. So some of the stuff I replied to already was answered. However, I find the comment about Master Tactician's effect on Expose Weakness, albeit a minor one, interesting. It seems like most folks around here simply assume you have MT as a surv build. I use a 21/40 build, but after Expose and Thrill, I spend my remaining 4 points elsewhere for utility purposes. How many of you folks here actually run with MT? I mean, yes, it's slightly better DPS, but I value things like dropping a lone point into Wyvern and taking time off my trap cooldowns.
Also, to Whytefyst, I don't generally have the mageblood potion or the shaman in group with me for mana spring, (I'm usually stuck in the leftover group, as lilwolfe put it,) but do you really drop efficiency completely and not go 3/3 on Thrill? That just seems, I dunno, painful to me somehow.
Also, to Whytefyst, I don't generally have the mageblood potion or the shaman in group with me for mana spring, (I'm usually stuck in the leftover group, as lilwolfe put it,) but do you really drop efficiency completely and not go 3/3 on Thrill? That just seems, I dunno, painful to me somehow.
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Originally Posted by Arcazua
It seems like most folks around here simply assume you have MT as a surv build.
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I'm surprised you don't find the value in Readiness and the added DPS boost from MT to be better than reduced trap CDs and Wyvern Sting (I didn't check your armory for exact spec).
I've found readiness extremely useful in raids where as resourcefulness and Wyvern sting would rarely apply, don't get me wrong they are great for heroics/PVP but they do not seem useful in raids.
With Readiness you can x2 MD, x2 FD in case of resist, x2 trap, x2 deterrence.
Here's a picture of a Hunter combat log while tanking Leo the blind for 17 full hits while he is enraged before getting 1 shotted, so I would not underestimate the power of deterrence. Hunter Pic here
Plus if the raid is wiping and FD is on cooldown, pop readiness and save your gold and consumables.
Obviously the trade off is only 2/3 EW but for 7% uptime you gain dps and a lot of raid utility.
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Originally Posted by Arcazua
It seems like most folks around here simply assume you have MT as a surv build.
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Master Tactician isn't worth it either. Not only do you have to spend points in Thrill of the Hunt (or something even more useless in raids) but you then spend 5 points for a ~3% crit increase. I don't know about you guys, but I currently run ~52% crit fully buffed in raid situations. That crit certainly isn't adding to my EW uptime significantly, and 3% crit is still inferior to 3% ranged damage.
Tradeoffs: Thrill of the Hunt, Master Tactician, and Readiness vs Scattershot, 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot (valuable for the tight 1:1.5 rotation I use), and 3/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization. Readiness is nice, but the only serious uses I found for it were resetting a FD when it resisted (easily fixed by planning ahead and feigning early), resetting Deterrence (aside from gimmick fights like Bloodboil or Essence of Souls, if the tank doesn't have it off you before Deterrence is down your raid is screwed already... and on Bloodboil/Souls unless you're absurdly short on rogues and have slow healers you shouldn't need it), and resetting Rapid Fire for a slight DPS buff. I'm sure there are differing opinions on this, but I prefer my current spec after spending time as all of the primary survival specs.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I've found that while Thrill of the Hunt is a nice talent to grab, there are better DPS talents.
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Another thing I recently moved around, is my points from improved arcane shot. I used to have 5/5 with the tighter 1:1.5 rotation that many MM and Surv hunters use. Then, I realized that those 5 points aren't really increasing my DPS. All it does, is simplify my rotation. If I used multi-shot and went back to the standard 1:1.5 rotation, I could spent those 5 points on something else. So, now, I am back to a standard 0/21/40 build.
I think the 0/28/33 build is good too, but, I just don't use multi-shot a lot. It is the second .5 special in my rotation, so, with all the movement, FDs and stop DPS times, my macro gets reset a lot and multi-shot doesn't get to fire very often. I feel like those 3 points normally put in barrage aren't the best place to put them. Also, I LOVE Wyvern sting! It is just too bad the CD is so high.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
In fact, a large number of us do not, but for different reasons than the ones you list. I've found that while Thrill of the Hunt is a nice talent to grab, there are better DPS talents.
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As far as ToTH, this talent is amazing, I seriously don't understand how you are raiding without it. Over the course of our 4 Azgalor attempts last night I received over 40k Mana from ToTH (including trash & boss).
The closest we got to killing Azgalor was 40% (our first night of attempts) and during that fight ToTH returned over 3k mana.
I find that 6K is not an uncommon return for most boss fights, the longer ones yielding even more return.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
As far as ToTH, this talent is amazing, I seriously don't understand how you are raiding without it. Over the course of our 4 Azgalor attempts last night I received over 40k Mana from ToTH (including trash & boss).
The closest we got to killing Azgalor was 40% (our first night of attempts) and during that fight ToTH returned over 3k mana. |
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
Trash doesn't count. You can drink in between trash, so who cares. But, I've never seen 6k in mana returned even on long fights. My highest that I remember was around 4.5k. Average was closer to 2k. I prefer Wyvern Sting and 3/3 EW instead of mana. I am usually grouped with a shadow priest, so that could bias my preference a bit.
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I agree though, If I knew I had a shadow priest each and every raid I would switch to 2/3 ToTH and 3/3 Expose instead of vice versa.
Edit:
Looking at your spec I'm wondering why you did not take monster slaying, and getting 5/5 MT and taking WS over Readiness seems strange to me, I have previously raided as 24/37 and have never found a use for WS in raids.
surv macro help
Hi,
im a 0/20/41 surv build, i use the Steelhawk Crossbow, Damage Speed 2.80
i also use a Quiver of a Thousand Feathers, ranged attack speed by 15%
the 1 trinket i use Abacus of Violent Odds every (2 Min Cooldown)
Use: Increases haste rating by 260 (16.49% @ L70) for 10 sec.
here is what i use: first is CC and then No CC
/castsequence reset=6 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcance Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
i was using these 2 and now they quit working for me: first is CC and then No CC
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
let me know what you think or how to improve on what i have...thanks
im a 0/20/41 surv build, i use the Steelhawk Crossbow, Damage Speed 2.80
i also use a Quiver of a Thousand Feathers, ranged attack speed by 15%
the 1 trinket i use Abacus of Violent Odds every (2 Min Cooldown)
Use: Increases haste rating by 260 (16.49% @ L70) for 10 sec.
here is what i use: first is CC and then No CC
/castsequence reset=6 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcance Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
i was using these 2 and now they quit working for me: first is CC and then No CC
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
let me know what you think or how to improve on what i have...thanks
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Originally Posted by five
let me know what you think or how to improve on what i have...thanks
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As far as gear goes you have some really nice pieces but have fallen into a bit a of a trap on a few of them as well.
Mulgar's Warhelm is a really bad piece, especially for survival, the SMV quest reward is better [Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight] socketed with 3 +8 agility gems, until you can pick up the T4 helm.
As long as you are using a helm without a Meta gem socket ALL your sockets with +8 agility. Forget about those weak socket bonuses.
T4 shoulders are really bad as well (thanks blizz), a few better options are:
[Beast Lord Mantle]
[Shoulderpads of Assassination]
[Mantle of the Tireless Tracker]
[Merciless Gladiator's Chain Spaulders] *Ideal
Get on an arena team! even if its a just a crappy 5v5 to get points each week and start building up for some gear, some arena pieces are really great for PVE, the S3 helm is better than T6 helm. S2 Shoulders > T5 Shoulders.
Obviously prince bow would be an upgrade, 2.8 is not a good speed for Survival. Even better would be Season 1 Crossbow which can you buy with honor.
Again your belt is not a good survival piece, if you can [Girdle of Treachery] from kara is an nice edition, I also believe there is a blue belt from heroic UB that is leather but i can't remember the name. I've always thought the belt slot is a great place for a leather item, if you're doing well in SSC then spending dkp on [Belt of Deep Shadow] is a good idea, which I believe is much better than the mail belt [Belt of the Black Eagle]
Trinkets - Try to get [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller]
Gloves - Gruul gloves are nice but upgrade to [Gauntlets of Sniping] if you get the chance, they are slightly better than T5.
Spec - I would make the BM hunters in your guild spec into improved mark, they should be the ones getting that and not the SV hunter. Put points into GftT, and go 5/5 Efficiency. Drop Deflection, pick up Survival Instincts and Deterrence.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I would argue that a 0/20/41 build using 1:1.5 rotation with a multi, arcane priority will be higher dps than one which uses 5/5 improved arcane shot + 3/5 RWS but does not include multi. Taking ToTH in this situation allows you to use multi which ultimately yields higher dps.
As far as ToTH, this talent is amazing, I seriously don't understand how you are raiding without it. Over the course of our 4 Azgalor attempts last night I received over 40k Mana from ToTH (including trash & boss). The closest we got to killing Azgalor was 40% (our first night of attempts) and during that fight ToTH returned over 3k mana. I find that 6K is not an uncommon return for most boss fights, the longer ones yielding even more return. |
As far as ToTH goes, I believe there are 2 types of fights: bosses your guild has on easy farm, and bosses they don't. For an easy farm boss, the slight dps loss from aspect of the viper isn't going to make a difference in whether you kill the boss or not (which, let's face it, is the only final goal). For a boss that's not easy farm, I'm going to be doing my full out dps at all times, popping pots on cooldown, etc. In this case my mana effeciency is irrelevant- a fel mana potion on cooldown will keep me going for as long as I need it to. In both cases, mana effeciency isn't a worry- one because you can use viper, the other because you're chain popping pots.
Despite all the worries about mana, I have neither Thrill of the Hunt nor Effeciency and still have no mana issues in raids.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Interestingly enough, back probably 15 pages ago we did the math on such a comparison, and it turned out that the dps from the two was approximately equal. I'd have to look back and see, but the theorycraft is definitely there. The argument that really convinced me to use the 5/5 imp arcane shot rotation was its simplicity. Unfortunately, I'm leaving town in an hour or so and don't have the time to find it. I'll tell you that you're incorrect to assume that the multishot rotation is obviously higher dps though.
As far as ToTH goes, I believe there are 2 types of fights: bosses your guild has on easy farm, and bosses they don't. For an easy farm boss, the slight dps loss from aspect of the viper isn't going to make a difference in whether you kill the boss or not (which, let's face it, is the only final goal). For a boss that's not easy farm, I'm going to be doing my full out dps at all times, popping pots on cooldown, etc. In this case my mana effeciency is irrelevant- a fel mana potion on cooldown will keep me going for as long as I need it to. In both cases, mana effeciency isn't a worry- one because you can use viper, the other because you're chain popping pots. Despite all the worries about mana, I have neither Thrill of the Hunt nor Effeciency and still have no mana issues in raids. |
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 EW, 3/3 ToTH)
Rotation: 1:1.5 (Arcane + Multi) (No KC)
DPS: 1339.99
Time to OOM: 162.64
Spec: 0/28/33 (Swaped Improved Mark for Efficiency)
Rotation: 1:1.5 (Arcane only) (No KC)
DPS: 1323.97
Time to OOM: 134.11
As you can see from the spreadsheet you get both higher dps and more time to OOM using 0/20/41 as opposed to 0/28/33 plus the bonus of readiness which has a lot of value as I previously mentioned. While I realize this is all theorycraft I usually stick to the spreadsheet
Maybe I'm just too competitive but I will never use Viper on a boss, regardless if it is Prince in Kara, I'd rather burn pots than Gimp by DPS. Switching to Viper from Hawk drops my dps by 40 in the spreadsheet, a huge drop.
IMO save yourself the extreme cost of using fel mana pots and spec ToTH, while I have some fel mana pots to use when absolutely necessary, with ToTH its almost never an issue to use super mana. Once my gear gets better I'll probably swap and go 3/3 EW and 2/3 ToTH, but then again having 3/3 ToTH still might be better because it allows you to drop Intel to wear leather pieces which result in higher overall DPS.
If you have time, try this experiment with your gear since it is much better than mine, the value of MT with T6 gear is likely diminished from some of the weak-sauce items I'm wearing
Last edited by Vasilii : 01/25/08 at 2:38 PM.
Thanks
Thanks for the tune up info, yes there are several pieces i need to toss to the side.
Everytime i go to KZ , Legacy never drops for me, and the same thing goes for the T4 helm and bow from prince...
It's kinda funny 90% of the guys in my guild who have hunter alts, they have T4 helm and bow....lucky i guess.
I will scan over the whole fourm again and see what i missed, i did that before and spent time on stuff that changed with the patches, so...i will check it out again.
Everytime i go to KZ , Legacy never drops for me, and the same thing goes for the T4 helm and bow from prince...
It's kinda funny 90% of the guys in my guild who have hunter alts, they have T4 helm and bow....lucky i guess.
I will scan over the whole fourm again and see what i missed, i did that before and spent time on stuff that changed with the patches, so...i will check it out again.
BT from this week - Wow Web Stats
Hyjal from this week - Wow Web Stats
My best DPS on Kaz'Rogal as any spec is in that Hyjal log. Fair Teron DPS for Survival at 2078, decent Council DPS at almost 1900.
I'm 0/20/41 - I use the new Steady Shot rotation of 2:1 in a non-hasted state (and I will thread in arcane/multis when I can while in a non-hasted state) and I let the rotation macro drop me to 1:1 when it allows me to do so.
I am with a Druid and an Enchancement Shaman twsting GoA. We usually have 3 drums in the group. I go with Heroism then Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, then take a Haste pot. This keeps me hasted for over a minute of a fight afterwhich I go to the 2:1 rotation, switching back to 1:1 when DST procs.
I use Master Tact because I'm a firm believer that crits win DPS. My main purpose of Readiness is to allow myself to control when I am hasted as much as possible.
I don't use Kill Command simply because I have a problem when I use it, I lose up to 2 Auto Shots doing so.
This is how I do it and these are my results. I look at many WWS logs to see what other Survival hunters are doing and these numbers seem to be very competitive.
The guy above me runs the 0/27/34 build. I'd be curious to see what numbers those are putting up. I often wonder about a 7/20/34 for the extra haste now using the 2:1 steady macro
I can read this thread until I am blue in the face of people testing on Boom and punching numbers into their calculators and why specific ways are better. Can we have some guys continue off of this post and get some WWS logs of their battles showing solid DPS numbers, giving us a general idea of how they play their character in a raid as opposed to a vague 1:1.5 rotation answer.
Sunwell is around the corner and I would like to get the most DPS I can out of my build for it, so somebody else running through BT/Hyjal get some logs up here and tell us what it is you do.
Hyjal from this week - Wow Web Stats
My best DPS on Kaz'Rogal as any spec is in that Hyjal log. Fair Teron DPS for Survival at 2078, decent Council DPS at almost 1900.
I'm 0/20/41 - I use the new Steady Shot rotation of 2:1 in a non-hasted state (and I will thread in arcane/multis when I can while in a non-hasted state) and I let the rotation macro drop me to 1:1 when it allows me to do so.
I am with a Druid and an Enchancement Shaman twsting GoA. We usually have 3 drums in the group. I go with Heroism then Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, then take a Haste pot. This keeps me hasted for over a minute of a fight afterwhich I go to the 2:1 rotation, switching back to 1:1 when DST procs.
I use Master Tact because I'm a firm believer that crits win DPS. My main purpose of Readiness is to allow myself to control when I am hasted as much as possible.
I don't use Kill Command simply because I have a problem when I use it, I lose up to 2 Auto Shots doing so.
This is how I do it and these are my results. I look at many WWS logs to see what other Survival hunters are doing and these numbers seem to be very competitive.
The guy above me runs the 0/27/34 build. I'd be curious to see what numbers those are putting up. I often wonder about a 7/20/34 for the extra haste now using the 2:1 steady macro
I can read this thread until I am blue in the face of people testing on Boom and punching numbers into their calculators and why specific ways are better. Can we have some guys continue off of this post and get some WWS logs of their battles showing solid DPS numbers, giving us a general idea of how they play their character in a raid as opposed to a vague 1:1.5 rotation answer.
Sunwell is around the corner and I would like to get the most DPS I can out of my build for it, so somebody else running through BT/Hyjal get some logs up here and tell us what it is you do.
Ahhh
Sounds good, where can i find the new steady shot rotation? thanks
I have a questions, how does DST rate as a trinket for a Survival hunter?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by partime
I have a questions, how does DST rate as a trinket for a Survival hunter?
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And, from the spreadsheets, since haven't got any of the following, it's equal to [Tsunami Talisman] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness], and lower than [Madness of the Betrayer] or [Berserker's Call].
Last edited by Enova : 01/26/08 at 3:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by partime
I have a questions, how does DST rate as a trinket for a Survival hunter?
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
BT from this week - Wow Web Stats
Hyjal from this week - Wow Web Stats My best DPS on Kaz'Rogal as any spec is in that Hyjal log. Fair Teron DPS for Survival at 2078, decent Council DPS at almost 1900. I'm 0/20/41 - I use the new Steady Shot rotation of 2:1 in a non-hasted state (and I will thread in arcane/multis when I can while in a non-hasted state) and I let the rotation macro drop me to 1:1 when it allows me to do so. I am with a Druid and an Enchancement Shaman twsting GoA. We usually have 3 drums in the group. I go with Heroism then Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, then take a Haste pot. This keeps me hasted for over a minute of a fight afterwhich I go to the 2:1 rotation, switching back to 1:1 when DST procs. I use Master Tact because I'm a firm believer that crits win DPS. My main purpose of Readiness is to allow myself to control when I am hasted as much as possible. I don't use Kill Command simply because I have a problem when I use it, I lose up to 2 Auto Shots doing so. This is how I do it and these are my results. I look at many WWS logs to see what other Survival hunters are doing and these numbers seem to be very competitive. The guy above me runs the 0/27/34 build. I'd be curious to see what numbers those are putting up. I often wonder about a 7/20/34 for the extra haste now using the 2:1 steady macro I can read this thread until I am blue in the face of people testing on Boom and punching numbers into their calculators and why specific ways are better. Can we have some guys continue off of this post and get some WWS logs of their battles showing solid DPS numbers, giving us a general idea of how they play their character in a raid as opposed to a vague 1:1.5 rotation answer. Sunwell is around the corner and I would like to get the most DPS I can out of my build for it, so somebody else running through BT/Hyjal get some logs up here and tell us what it is you do. |
With that macro spam, why bother with ToTH and beyond? I don't understand why you would spend more than 33 points in the Surv tree, especially when you can spend those points in Imp Hawk and FF.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
It depends on the rotation you try to pull off. If you /castsequence a 1:1.5 rotation then its pretty useless comparatively as is IAotH. Having it and IAotH makes doing the 2:1 auto / steady spam work pretty darn well.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I honestly haven't tried much in the way of 7/20/34 builds.
That was before 2.3.2 and I was clipping too many shots because my weapon speed was bouncing from 2.61 down to under 1.40. I just personally found this build to not be as ideal as a 0/20/41 build.
Friday night Hyjal - Wow Web Stats 2100+ on both Rage and Anetheron.
As I've posted before I'd love to see other Survival hunters with different build styles post some WWS and explain how they got those numbers.
I have Thrill and I use Illidan's bow to reduce the need to use my potion cool down for mana but rather to use my potion cooldowns for haste pots. Quick shots is great but not as great when you have Drums, DST and another form of haste up like Rapid Fire, Heroism or a Haste pot. To me Master Tact is the way to go and to get there I get some points in thrill.
I fail FD a fair amount and I have improved FD. If any of you have failed your first feign on Teron while your guild is trying to push DPS records then you know where I am coming from when I say it sucks. Readiness is useful for those situations and believe me they happen more then some people think.
That was before 2.3.2 and I was clipping too many shots because my weapon speed was bouncing from 2.61 down to under 1.40. I just personally found this build to not be as ideal as a 0/20/41 build.
Friday night Hyjal - Wow Web Stats 2100+ on both Rage and Anetheron.
As I've posted before I'd love to see other Survival hunters with different build styles post some WWS and explain how they got those numbers.
I have Thrill and I use Illidan's bow to reduce the need to use my potion cool down for mana but rather to use my potion cooldowns for haste pots. Quick shots is great but not as great when you have Drums, DST and another form of haste up like Rapid Fire, Heroism or a Haste pot. To me Master Tact is the way to go and to get there I get some points in thrill.
I fail FD a fair amount and I have improved FD. If any of you have failed your first feign on Teron while your guild is trying to push DPS records then you know where I am coming from when I say it sucks. Readiness is useful for those situations and believe me they happen more then some people think.
Last edited by Kurkis : 01/27/08 at 2:56 AM.
Im pretty much new to the survival tree and only have kara level agi gear for the build. I was wondering if my wolfslayer rifle would be okay with the 1.1.5 shot rotation.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
So is a macro totally out of the question for a Survival build? If not wich macro do you use?
Last edited by Fenz : 01/27/08 at 11:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by jessequach
Im pretty much new to the survival tree and only have kara level agi gear for the build. I was wondering if my wolfslayer rifle would be okay with the 1.1.5 shot rotation.
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Originally Posted by Fenz
So is a macro totally out of the question for a Survival build? If not wich macro do you use?
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| /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot; !Auto shot |
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Originally Posted by Enova
Wolfslayer is rather fast and you WILL clip shots unless using a macro, or skip other specials. It's usable, but upgrade to 2.9 or 3.0 as fast as you can.
Macros aren't really good for any shot rotation, but if you really have trouble clipping, use and time Arcane and Multi manually |
Thanks, on earlier pages I found this macro: /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1)
Is that the way to include AS or is manual still better?
It's probably better to shoot them manually, because if you need to reset the shot sequence for some reason (out of range, stuns, FD), the macro will wait until the cooldowns are up, or the reset time has passed, wasting a few seconds in between.
It also lowers your dps if you insist on using the macro under the effects of Rapid Fire or Quick Shots if you fire specials...
It also lowers your dps if you insist on using the macro under the effects of Rapid Fire or Quick Shots if you fire specials...
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Use that macro and many times on the 2nd steady shot you will have plenty of time to lay an Arcane or Multi out of it before it goes off. You choose to shoot more Steady Shots then Auto Shots with this macro but the DPS simply is better.
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Use that macro and many times on the 2nd steady shot you will have plenty of time to lay an Arcane or Multi out of it before it goes off. You choose to shoot more Steady Shots then Auto Shots with this macro but the DPS simply is better.
Is it possible to recreate the 2 steady shot per auto shot rotation without a macro? Just curious.
Sure, just use your normal Steady Shot button.
This may not be as good as the macro but it works, I just tried it out killing some trash on my dailies.
This may not be as good as the macro but it works, I just tried it out killing some trash on my dailies.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Arcazua
Also, to Whytefyst, I don't generally have the mageblood potion or the shaman in group with me for mana spring, (I'm usually stuck in the leftover group, as lilwolfe put it,) but do you really drop efficiency completely and not go 3/3 on Thrill? That just seems, I dunno, painful to me somehow.
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In the MM talents, I have the 20 to get the full 5 ranks in Mortal Shots with 5 points spent at every level. At level 2, I have 5/5 IHM instead of 5/5 Efficiency. I am the only hunter in the guild with IHM, so it is important that I have it since it is a good buff to our usually large melee raid make up.
In Survival talents, I have all the way up to Readiness. Yes, I realize that there are talents that I could spend the Readiness point on that would provide me with better DPS, but I roll with Readiness since it helps us out in many situations. One of the reasons being allowing me to use MD more often on pulls since we prefer for me to do the pulls for the following reasons:
1) I have the longer range, making many pulls less dangerous.
2) I do far more damage over the 3 shots of MD than our BM hunters do on average. So me performing the MD, usually provides much higher initial threat for the tank.
3) The 3 MD shots of the pull almost guarantees that EW is on the target by when everyone else starts attacking it.
Yes, it can be debated whether Readiness is worth the point over a another point in TotH or something else like Scatter Shot or Barrage, but it is what I have chosen to do to help our raids move more quickly and efficiently. Plus, it helps in other situations, such as allowing more MDs to the kiters of the striders during Vashj fights, etc.
Since I have a complete readiness build, that means that I only have 5 points possible that I can use on the TotH/WS/EW level. I chose 2 TotH and 3 EW because of the increased raid DPS. If I went 3 TotH and 2 EW, I would only gain 12.2 seconds until OOM but would lose 4.6 personal DPS with my EW uptime dropping from 99.13% by 5.75% to 93.38%. It may not seem like that 5.75% difference would mean much, but that is a change in my average EW proc from 285.27 AP fully buffed to 268.73 AP. This loss of 16.54 AP equates to about 5 DPS per physical DPS in the raid on that target. Since they are many ways that my mana situation can be improved in raids, it was decided to maximum the EW proc benefit.
Because of the sacrifices I have in personal mana regen as well as for increasing the EW proc, that is why I am usually placed in a group with both a druid with LotP and a shaman with Mana Spring and Improved GoA and SoE (for my pet and the melee). Doing this is also very helpful to the raid. Without these buffs, I personally lose 134 DPS, which means that my MDs will be a little less effective. In addition, I also lose about 2% on my mana regen from TotH and 1.4% on my EW uptime from the loss of crit. Finally, my average EW proc loses 31.3 AP, which is about 9.3 DPS per physical DPS on the target. If there are 8 other physcial DPS in the raid, including pets, not having me in a group with these buffs cost about 208 DPS for the raid, which would be hard to make up by putting a BM in this group instead.
So yes, my spec is a little painful mana wise since I need to use 2 mana oils, but as long as I have mana spring, I usually do not need the mageblood potion and do not have to use 4-5 mana pots per boss fight. But if I am without mana spring, then I need to use mageblood potions and more mana pots. Is this ideal for me personally? Probably not, but it is what I feel I need to do to be a better contributor to the raids, and our RLs usually understand that and take it into group considerations.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 01/27/08 at 4:02 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
In fact, a large number of us do not, but for different reasons than the ones you list. I've found that while Thrill of the Hunt is a nice talent to grab, there are better DPS talents. I currently have no mana issues (using mainly the free mana pots from Skettis daily), and if I do I just pop a fel mana pot or two and keep going. If you look at my gear, I run almost no mp/5. The one caveat to this is that we run a full time ret pally, who keeps Judgement of Wisdom up on the boss at all times. I suppose that might be why I'm not having issues...? In any case, 3/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization is a much better choice of talents (in my humble opinion) than 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt. Mana can be obtained from other sources, 3% more damage cannot.
Master Tactician isn't worth it either. Not only do you have to spend points in Thrill of the Hunt (or something even more useless in raids) but you then spend 5 points for a ~3% crit increase. I don't know about you guys, but I currently run ~52% crit fully buffed in raid situations. That crit certainly isn't adding to my EW uptime significantly, and 3% crit is still inferior to 3% ranged damage. Tradeoffs: Thrill of the Hunt, Master Tactician, and Readiness vs Scattershot, 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot (valuable for the tight 1:1.5 rotation I use), and 3/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization. Readiness is nice, but the only serious uses I found for it were resetting a FD when it resisted (easily fixed by planning ahead and feigning early), resetting Deterrence (aside from gimmick fights like Bloodboil or Essence of Souls, if the tank doesn't have it off you before Deterrence is down your raid is screwed already... and on Bloodboil/Souls unless you're absurdly short on rogues and have slow healers you shouldn't need it), and resetting Rapid Fire for a slight DPS buff. I'm sure there are differing opinions on this, but I prefer my current spec after spending time as all of the primary survival specs. |
I actually ran with the 7/20/34 build for a while, and it was very good for me at that time. However, after the season 3 gear came out and I acquired a lot of new gear, I reevaluated the optimal build for my gear and typical raids buffs, and it lost out to 0/20/41 at that time.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 01/27/08 at 4:01 PM.
Kurkis, I've been looking over your WWS logs (since honestly your dps is considerably higher than mine using equivalent gear) and I'm pretty puzzled by what I'm seeing regarding Wed Jan 23.
For example, on Teron Gorefiend, you fired a total of 2 Arcane Shots and 2 Multishots, meaning you essentially did the entire fight in a 1:1 rotation? I realize that for haste buffs (rapid fire and heroism come to mind) you'd want to use a 1:1 rotation, but in a 3 minute fight even with 2 rapid fires and a heroism that's still half the time you were doing 1:1 when you could have been doing 1:1.5.
Secondly, on Illidari Council I note you're doing the same thing. 45% Steady Shot, 35% Auto Shot (understandable difference because of the kiting necessary), 3% Arcane Shot, 3% Multi Shot?
In fact, now that I'm looking at it, almost all of your fights are far closer to 1:1 than 1:1.5. (looking at Bloodboil, Mother, Najentus).
For anyone who didn't catch the link earlier, I'm looking at Kurkis - WWS
Looking at Kurkis - WWS you're doing the exact same thing again. 41% Steady Shot, 36% Auto Shot, 6% Arcane Shot, 1% Multi Shot on Rage, 3% Arcane Shot and Multishot each again on Anetheron.
I can't argue with what you're doing, because you're seeing considerably higher numbers than I am but I am definitely intruiged with why. Any chance you could describe a bit of the logic behind your rotation?
For example, on Teron Gorefiend, you fired a total of 2 Arcane Shots and 2 Multishots, meaning you essentially did the entire fight in a 1:1 rotation? I realize that for haste buffs (rapid fire and heroism come to mind) you'd want to use a 1:1 rotation, but in a 3 minute fight even with 2 rapid fires and a heroism that's still half the time you were doing 1:1 when you could have been doing 1:1.5.
Secondly, on Illidari Council I note you're doing the same thing. 45% Steady Shot, 35% Auto Shot (understandable difference because of the kiting necessary), 3% Arcane Shot, 3% Multi Shot?
In fact, now that I'm looking at it, almost all of your fights are far closer to 1:1 than 1:1.5. (looking at Bloodboil, Mother, Najentus).
For anyone who didn't catch the link earlier, I'm looking at Kurkis - WWS
Looking at Kurkis - WWS you're doing the exact same thing again. 41% Steady Shot, 36% Auto Shot, 6% Arcane Shot, 1% Multi Shot on Rage, 3% Arcane Shot and Multishot each again on Anetheron.
I can't argue with what you're doing, because you're seeing considerably higher numbers than I am but I am definitely intruiged with why. Any chance you could describe a bit of the logic behind your rotation?
The concept on how I play a Survival hunter is pretty simple.
BM hunters are the DPS powers that they are because they have 20% haste and a pet that does a good chunk of their damage. The idea here is to keep yourself hasted as much as you can during the fight so that you can run a solid 1:1 rotation allowing the benefits you get as a Survival hunter to help close the gap between Survival/MM damage and BM damage.
I generally do every fight this way - We pull and you have 15-25 seconds where the tank is building aggro, the mob is being put into position. During this time I am using a Steady, Steady, Auto rotation and I throw in Multi-Shots and Arcanes when my Auto shot lets me. Before anyone screams I will clobber auto-shots doing this and the world will end because of it, I don't care.
It is my opinion that a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman are the 2 most important things to have in your group as a Survival hunter. With that said both the druid and the shaman as well as myself have drums of battle.
After these 15-25 seconds are up the Shaman will pop Heroism and drums (45 seconds), Rapid Fire (15 seconds) when Heroism fades and then Readiness/Rapid Fire (15 seconds) again. At this point we are 95-100 seconds total into the fight and 75 of those seconds I am hasted. During the second Rapid Fire I make the decision to either haste pot or fel mana pot.
There are 2x when I will not do this. First being Kaz'rogal where I till take a Fel mana pot about 10 seconds into the fight so I can get as much mana back as I can at the beginning (even if I waste some of the fel mana pot) so that hopefully near the end of the fight I can sneak in a Super Mana pot. This doesn't always work but I try. The other acception to that rule is on Illidari Council where I Fel Mana pot the entire time and generally have to use Aspect of the Viper no more then about 30 seconds.
Generally, I take a haste pot after the 2nd Rapid Fire giving me a total of 1 1/2 minutes of being hasted running a 1:1 rotation. During that period of time I've pretty much just destroyed the mob and with running over a 50% crit w/ Master Tact up for a large portion of that time the crits are glorious.
We are now ruffly 110-115 seconds into the fight and all of your 'controlled' haste is done. By this time your numbers are going to be pretty good as long as you aren't bad at the game and you need to just run out the clock. You've got 1.5 - 2 minutes left in the fight. I will simply go back to Steady, Steady, Auto, and toss in more specials when I can. If DST procs and drums are running I can go back to 1:1. During the end all I am trying to do is sustain the damage.
My results are what I have posted. My rotation really is not as close to 1:1 as it looks on the shot chart. There are a few stray Auto-Shots that go during the course of the fight that cut the gap between Steady and Auto down. As you can clearly see though I favor Steady shot.
To address the Foam Finger Fans who will say you should do it differently... I do it this way and it works for me. There is more then one way to skin a cat and if you are having success as a Survival hunter or MM for that matter then indeed you should post your WWS and take us through how you play your character in the fight so that we can become more educated, thus allowing us all to improve our play.
Before I end my wall of text I'm going to give you guys all a free pro tip - Get Drums of Battle.
Unless you are one of your guilds main (insert profession here) there is really no excuse to not have atleast 350 LW as one of your professions. With that, the more drummers you have in the raid the higher your raids DPS is. In my guild we have something like 16 active drummers. Think about that.
BM hunters are the DPS powers that they are because they have 20% haste and a pet that does a good chunk of their damage. The idea here is to keep yourself hasted as much as you can during the fight so that you can run a solid 1:1 rotation allowing the benefits you get as a Survival hunter to help close the gap between Survival/MM damage and BM damage.
I generally do every fight this way - We pull and you have 15-25 seconds where the tank is building aggro, the mob is being put into position. During this time I am using a Steady, Steady, Auto rotation and I throw in Multi-Shots and Arcanes when my Auto shot lets me. Before anyone screams I will clobber auto-shots doing this and the world will end because of it, I don't care.
It is my opinion that a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman are the 2 most important things to have in your group as a Survival hunter. With that said both the druid and the shaman as well as myself have drums of battle.
After these 15-25 seconds are up the Shaman will pop Heroism and drums (45 seconds), Rapid Fire (15 seconds) when Heroism fades and then Readiness/Rapid Fire (15 seconds) again. At this point we are 95-100 seconds total into the fight and 75 of those seconds I am hasted. During the second Rapid Fire I make the decision to either haste pot or fel mana pot.
There are 2x when I will not do this. First being Kaz'rogal where I till take a Fel mana pot about 10 seconds into the fight so I can get as much mana back as I can at the beginning (even if I waste some of the fel mana pot) so that hopefully near the end of the fight I can sneak in a Super Mana pot. This doesn't always work but I try. The other acception to that rule is on Illidari Council where I Fel Mana pot the entire time and generally have to use Aspect of the Viper no more then about 30 seconds.
Generally, I take a haste pot after the 2nd Rapid Fire giving me a total of 1 1/2 minutes of being hasted running a 1:1 rotation. During that period of time I've pretty much just destroyed the mob and with running over a 50% crit w/ Master Tact up for a large portion of that time the crits are glorious.
We are now ruffly 110-115 seconds into the fight and all of your 'controlled' haste is done. By this time your numbers are going to be pretty good as long as you aren't bad at the game and you need to just run out the clock. You've got 1.5 - 2 minutes left in the fight. I will simply go back to Steady, Steady, Auto, and toss in more specials when I can. If DST procs and drums are running I can go back to 1:1. During the end all I am trying to do is sustain the damage.
My results are what I have posted. My rotation really is not as close to 1:1 as it looks on the shot chart. There are a few stray Auto-Shots that go during the course of the fight that cut the gap between Steady and Auto down. As you can clearly see though I favor Steady shot.
To address the Foam Finger Fans who will say you should do it differently... I do it this way and it works for me. There is more then one way to skin a cat and if you are having success as a Survival hunter or MM for that matter then indeed you should post your WWS and take us through how you play your character in the fight so that we can become more educated, thus allowing us all to improve our play.
Before I end my wall of text I'm going to give you guys all a free pro tip - Get Drums of Battle.
Unless you are one of your guilds main (insert profession here) there is really no excuse to not have atleast 350 LW as one of your professions. With that, the more drummers you have in the raid the higher your raids DPS is. In my guild we have something like 16 active drummers. Think about that.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
As I've posted before I'd love to see other Survival hunters with different build styles post some WWS and explain how they got those numbers.
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1924 DPS on teron last night, just by using a 1:1.5 rotation and a 1:1 rotation with Multi>Steady prio.
As for the drums you were talking about, I might do it it's just that I can only drop herbelism for it and I prefer flying around herbing a bit
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I would say trash does count in Hyjal where you are fighting continuously and the less downtime you have the more time you have to get in position for MDs or CC for the next wave. Not to mention all the money saved from not blowing mana pots every CD.
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| I agree though, If I knew I had a shadow priest each and every raid I would switch to 2/3 ToTH and 3/3 Expose instead of vice versa. |
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Edit: Looking at your spec I'm wondering why you did not take monster slaying, and getting 5/5 MT and taking WS over Readiness seems strange to me, I have previously raided as 24/37 and have never found a use for WS in raids. |
WS isn't much use in raids, although I occasionally save a healer when a mob gets loose, but it is pretty good for PvP. Not as good as most CCs, but, it is great as an interrupt when I am trying to kill a healer (once every 2 min). It is also awesome for kiting in combination with scatter shot, frost trap and concussion shot. Occasionally, my arena teams fight a team that can't dispel poison. On those rare instances, it is good for CC as well.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
It is my opinion that a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman are the 2 most important things to have in your group as a Survival hunter. With that said both the druid and the shaman as well as myself have drums of battle.
Before I end my wall of text I'm going to give you guys all a free pro tip - Get Drums of Battle. Unless you are one of your guilds main (insert profession here) there is really no excuse to not have atleast 350 LW as one of your professions. With that, the more drummers you have in the raid the higher your raids DPS is. In my guild we have something like 16 active drummers. Think about that. |
I also run with Drums of Battle myself, especially now that they are so much more cheaper to make than they originally were. However, unfortunately my normal druid and shaman group mates are not LWs too.
Currently, I use 3 rotations, 1:1 when hasted, 1:3 when can't multishot (since don't have IAS), and 1:5 when can multishot. I will have to experiment with your Steady, Steady, Auto rotation.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
I kite the mobs back to the NPCs. I have never used more than half a mana bar in any wave and easily have enough time to drink between phases. So, I don't think spending 3 points in TotH is necessary for this. I did spend 1 point, but that is just because there is nothing better on my way to MT.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
It is quite nice, but this means that I never get a feral druid or agi totem using shaman.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
I am pretty sure that monster slaying doesn't work on any mobs in Hyjal or BT, so that is pretty worthless. I didn't take WS over Readiness, I took it over a second point in TotH. I took Scatter Shot over Readiness. I have been playing this character since retail release and have had Scatter Shot since I turned level 30. I can't imagine playing this game without it!
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It's nice to have a spec that is good for PVE & PVP but really its optimal for neither. If you're doing battlegrounds spec doesn't matter because you're just honor farming (and half the people you fight are terrible anyway). If you're doing arenas you need to respec or you're going to get crushed. I probably respec 4-5 times a week for different arena teams and raids. Blizz really needs to lower the respec cost, 50g everytime I want to play an arena game is just retarded.
But I do agree that WS is an awesome PVP ability, especially when you have scatter shot as well, having that many CCs is just sweet.
Do you guys have more than one Enhancement Shaman in raid? That is the only way I could see justifying a shaman grouped with hunters. The melee DPS group should get the shaman as the resulting boost in DPS is far greater.
We run a cookie-cutter DPS group of MS Warrior, 2 Rogues, Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman - We put the 2nd enchancement shaman in the tank group to help aid in his TPS w/ a Feral Druid and myself.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
@Kurkis
I did some testing of my own with regards to this shot rotation/macro mash, and the GCD behavior seems very 'awkward'. As some others have stipulated on these forums, being able to get 2 specials (in this case 2 steady shots) off in a 1.5 second window (talent build permitting) seems like very odd behavior with regards to how the GCD used to work. If this mechanic is still in place in 2.4, then it will redefine how the hunter class as we know it is played, but I remain skeptic. Judging from the hastened fix to rectify the initial /cast !auto shot, /cast aimed/steady there may very well be a lingering issue that remained uncorrected, and thats what we're currently witnessing. Call me a hater or what have you, but this behavior we're currently witnessing just seems 'out of place'.
edit:
This is the image I have in my head every time I try and understand how what we're currently witnessing is actually producing positive results.
I did some testing of my own with regards to this shot rotation/macro mash, and the GCD behavior seems very 'awkward'. As some others have stipulated on these forums, being able to get 2 specials (in this case 2 steady shots) off in a 1.5 second window (talent build permitting) seems like very odd behavior with regards to how the GCD used to work. If this mechanic is still in place in 2.4, then it will redefine how the hunter class as we know it is played, but I remain skeptic. Judging from the hastened fix to rectify the initial /cast !auto shot, /cast aimed/steady there may very well be a lingering issue that remained uncorrected, and thats what we're currently witnessing. Call me a hater or what have you, but this behavior we're currently witnessing just seems 'out of place'.
edit:
This is the image I have in my head every time I try and understand how what we're currently witnessing is actually producing positive results.
Last edited by CSM-EH : 01/28/08 at 12:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Justwait
Wow Web Stats
1924 DPS on teron last night, just by using a 1:1.5 rotation and a 1:1 rotation with Multi>Steady prio. As for the drums you were talking about, I might do it it's just that I can only drop herbelism for it and I prefer flying around herbing a bit |
Wow Web Stats
I am using a 1:1.5 with 1:1 steady during haste (rapid fire since no shammy). Any help would be appreciated.
CSM-EH - Did you test just spamming your Steady Shot button over and over forcing in Steady Shots and letting Autos instant shoot when they were finished cooling down? 2:1
I did roughly 1.5 hours of trials using both the current macro of choice (/cast !auto shot, /cast steady shot) in addition to trying to manually get 2 steady shots in for every auto shot, both of which produced the same mental block. All I can picture is the above visually represented shot rotation and scratch my head in wonder.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
In our guild melee has dibs on the feral druid
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| I agree though I'd take the Shaman with GoA and mana spring over any other class but it doesn't look like that's going to happen for me. |
| It's nice to have a spec that is good for PVE & PVP but really its optimal for neither. If you're doing battlegrounds spec doesn't matter because you're just honor farming (and half the people you fight are terrible anyway). If you're doing arenas you need to respec or you're going to get crushed. I probably respec 4-5 times a week for different arena teams and raids. |
As for arenas, yeah, it is not optimal, but it isn't horrible. Rogues and warriors aren't much of a threat when you have so much dodge, deterrence, improved wing clip and entrapment. I usually just keep them in front of me and kite or ignore them while DPSing the focused target. I rarely die while doing this unless my healer is CCed or runs out of mana. My 3v3 team is not very serious, but we got 1650 rating easily playing 10 games a week. We just switched our rogue for a warrior and went 8-2 this week and got a good deal above 1700 (can't remember exactly where it ended up). My 5v5 team is a joke, don't look at that one (5 DPSers, 3 of them are alts!).
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Those numbers are not because I am sitting in 1 spot with a 2.61 weapon speed shooting Steady, Steady, Auto for 2-3 minutes.
During the first 20-25 seconds of the fight you are putting up mark, moving around, distracting shots whatever, you aren't in a true stand and shoot rotation yet. The next 1.5 minutes after that you are balls to the wall 1:1 which has been used as a viable shot rotation for a longtime.
When this controlled haste is over if you aren't over 2k DPS at that point you won't be over 2k DPS for the fight. You have maybe 2 minutes left in the fight at that point and all you need to do is sustain the DPS you have already achieved.
Now whether you do that w/ 2:1 or 1:1.5 it doesn't matter. Either way you are going to lose some of that DPS you created during the hasted state. The question is how much? On Anetheron for instance I posted something like 2135 DPS. I was slept towards the end of the fight when all of my haste was down where I was doing no DPS at all. Obviously that is going to effect your DPS since you aren't doing damage and even with that I still put up over 2100 DPS.
The point is the 2:1 or 1:1.5 for that short period of time should not cause your DPS to plummet. You can still expect to take a DST proc or two, quickshots if you are spec'd into that and the first guy in your drum order is going to be popping those again too.
Look at the shot chart for all of the fights in the logs. You don't see it read anything like 80 Steady Shots, 40 Auto Shots.
Drums makes a big difference and I can't stress enough getting your guild to jump on the bandwagon and go LW not only increases your personal DPS as a whole but the entire raid's DPS.
It is pretty simple - Every DPS class has trinkets and cooldowns they pop to do a large amount of DPS in X period of time. Any DPS class obviously will hit their peak damage capabilities when that happens. After that happens it just slowly diminishes the longer the fight drags on. The faster the raid boss dies, the better you look, your fellow DPS'rs look and ultimately your raid looks. Drums is an inexpensive way to push your raid to its DPS limits and the faster you can get your raid team on board with it, the faster you can benefit from it.
CSM-EH:
I think we are all trained and set to think everytime a special goes off an auto-shot goes off or we are doing it all completely wrong. The real raid world as you know is not the same as posting what you think it should be on a board or pounding arrows at Boom all day long. While I do not for a second want you to think that those tools are invaluable to the success of our class/spec they have to be taken for what they are. Theories and tests.
Somebody posted that if you use a 2:1 rotation or a 1:1.5 rotation pretty much in the end you shoot the same amount of shots in that period of time. You shoot X amount of total shots, you just take 2 different roads to get there.
In a situation for a hunter that is wearing PvP loot and Khara loot favoring steady shot may very well not be in their best interest. For a guy with optimal raid buffs and a 4 piece T6 bonus which is right out of the box 10% Steady damage increase, Steady shot is going to do more damage then auto to merit pushing back the auto shots and losing some so that they can gain more steady shot damage. Your gear is similar to mine and in our cases we both should agree that this makes the most sense.
Your spec I believe has imp arcane, and barrage. Your Steady is buffed from your T6, you buff your Arcane, you buff your Multi. This is fine, again there is more then one way to skin a cat.
I on the other hand choose to play to the strength of my Steady shot which means a 2:1 rotation and obviously keeping myself hasted to run a 1:1.
During the first 20-25 seconds of the fight you are putting up mark, moving around, distracting shots whatever, you aren't in a true stand and shoot rotation yet. The next 1.5 minutes after that you are balls to the wall 1:1 which has been used as a viable shot rotation for a longtime.
When this controlled haste is over if you aren't over 2k DPS at that point you won't be over 2k DPS for the fight. You have maybe 2 minutes left in the fight at that point and all you need to do is sustain the DPS you have already achieved.
Now whether you do that w/ 2:1 or 1:1.5 it doesn't matter. Either way you are going to lose some of that DPS you created during the hasted state. The question is how much? On Anetheron for instance I posted something like 2135 DPS. I was slept towards the end of the fight when all of my haste was down where I was doing no DPS at all. Obviously that is going to effect your DPS since you aren't doing damage and even with that I still put up over 2100 DPS.
The point is the 2:1 or 1:1.5 for that short period of time should not cause your DPS to plummet. You can still expect to take a DST proc or two, quickshots if you are spec'd into that and the first guy in your drum order is going to be popping those again too.
Look at the shot chart for all of the fights in the logs. You don't see it read anything like 80 Steady Shots, 40 Auto Shots.
Drums makes a big difference and I can't stress enough getting your guild to jump on the bandwagon and go LW not only increases your personal DPS as a whole but the entire raid's DPS.
It is pretty simple - Every DPS class has trinkets and cooldowns they pop to do a large amount of DPS in X period of time. Any DPS class obviously will hit their peak damage capabilities when that happens. After that happens it just slowly diminishes the longer the fight drags on. The faster the raid boss dies, the better you look, your fellow DPS'rs look and ultimately your raid looks. Drums is an inexpensive way to push your raid to its DPS limits and the faster you can get your raid team on board with it, the faster you can benefit from it.
CSM-EH:
I think we are all trained and set to think everytime a special goes off an auto-shot goes off or we are doing it all completely wrong. The real raid world as you know is not the same as posting what you think it should be on a board or pounding arrows at Boom all day long. While I do not for a second want you to think that those tools are invaluable to the success of our class/spec they have to be taken for what they are. Theories and tests.
Somebody posted that if you use a 2:1 rotation or a 1:1.5 rotation pretty much in the end you shoot the same amount of shots in that period of time. You shoot X amount of total shots, you just take 2 different roads to get there.
In a situation for a hunter that is wearing PvP loot and Khara loot favoring steady shot may very well not be in their best interest. For a guy with optimal raid buffs and a 4 piece T6 bonus which is right out of the box 10% Steady damage increase, Steady shot is going to do more damage then auto to merit pushing back the auto shots and losing some so that they can gain more steady shot damage. Your gear is similar to mine and in our cases we both should agree that this makes the most sense.
Your spec I believe has imp arcane, and barrage. Your Steady is buffed from your T6, you buff your Arcane, you buff your Multi. This is fine, again there is more then one way to skin a cat.
I on the other hand choose to play to the strength of my Steady shot which means a 2:1 rotation and obviously keeping myself hasted to run a 1:1.
Last edited by Kurkis : 01/28/08 at 2:20 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by binky
Do you guys have more than one Enhancement Shaman in raid? That is the only way I could see justifying a shaman grouped with hunters. The melee DPS group should get the shaman as the resulting boost in DPS is far greater.
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In battles where the physical DPS tends to all be on the same target, I am almost always placed in the DPS group, which usually has:
1) Survival hunter (me)
2) Feral druid
3) Enhancement shaman (or other shaman with appropriate totems if enhancement shaman not on that night)
4) Rogue
5) Rogue (or BM hunter if only a single rogue)
Now its true that other classes could benefit from this group, like DPS warriors and BM hunters. However, we do not usually raid with any DPS warriors, since all of ours have been inactive for a while. I am given priority for the enhancement shaman over the BM hunters (and probably the DPS warriors) since:
- The Survival hunter being in this group not only improves his personal DPS, but improves the DPS of all physical melee on the target above what would be the difference to the raid for substituting another class for the survival hunter
- We often raid with 2 feral druids and several shaman (3-5), the remaining physical DPS is often placed in a group with the second druid and with a shaman that can still provide good buffs to them.
The result is that this group tends to lead our raid in DPS. On "single" target boss fights, the rogues usually lead the damage meters, with the shaman and me fighting it out for 3rd and 4th with maybe a BM hunter in the mix too. On AoE battles of course, mages and locks usually move up higher on the meters.
On fights where the physical DPS is spread out and the EW proc does not have as much benefit, the groups may be altered some for overall raid benefits for that fight. For instance, I am usually the only physical DPS on the striders in the Vashj fight so I can MD to the kiter, while the enhancement shaman is usually on the steps doing elementals with the BM Hunters, so for that fight, the BM hunters get grouped with the enhancement shaman during phase 2 and they are placed on the stairs to either side of the ehancement shaman to be in range for his totems. However, in phase 3, the BM hunters move to the bats and the enhancement shaman, the other physical DPS, including me, move to Vashj. Since the EW proc is very benefitial here in getting Vashj down faster and avoiding the worst of the bats, groups are switched so that I have the enhancement shaman again.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 01/28/08 at 2:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
CSM-EH: I think we are all trained and set to think everytime a special goes off an auto-shot goes off or we are doing it all completely wrong. The real raid world as you know is not the same as posting what you think it should be on a board or pounding arrows at Boom all day long. While I do not for a second want you to think that those tools are invaluable to the success of our class/spec they have to be taken for what they are. Theories and tests. Somebody posted that if you use a 2:1 rotation or a 1:1.5 rotation pretty much in the end you shoot the same amount of shots in that period of time. You shoot X amount of total shots, you just take 2 different roads to get there. In a situation for a hunter that is wearing PvP loot and Khara loot favoring steady shot may very well not be in their best interest. For a guy with optimal raid buffs and a 4 piece T6 bonus which is right out of the box 10% Steady damage increase, Steady shot is going to do more damage then auto to merit pushing back the auto shots and losing some so that they can gain more steady shot damage. Your gear is similar to mine and in our cases we both should agree that this makes the most sense. Your spec I believe has imp arcane, and barrage. Your Steady is buffed from your T6, you buff your Arcane, you buff your Multi. This is fine, again there is more then one way to skin a cat. I on the other hand choose to play to the strength of my Steady shot which means a 2:1 rotation and obviously keeping myself hasted to run a 1:1. |
For me a typical non-hasted rotation with my current build is:
Auto - Steady - Arcane - Auto - Multi - KC - Auto - Steady - Arcane - Auto - Steady - Wild Card (Mend Pet, Mark, etc.).
I agree that when hasted, 1:1 is without a doubt the way to go, regardless of spec/talents.
I'll try and throw some WWS reports up for comparison after this week's clear.
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Originally Posted by Numitor
Here is my last Gorefiend attempt. Talk about a difference in DPS, maybe someone could enlighten me as to what I am doing wrong?
Wow Web Stats I am using a 1:1.5 with 1:1 steady during haste (rapid fire since no shammy). Any help would be appreciated. |
Your guilds DPS in general on Teron is low so your numbers fall where they do. You can't expect to hit 1900+ DPS on Teron while the rest of the raid is 1500 dps or less.
As your guilds DPS increases you will see your personal DPS numbers go up as well.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
Your guilds DPS in general on Teron is low so your numbers fall where they do. You can't expect to hit 1900+ DPS on Teron while the rest of the raid is 1500 dps or less.
As your guilds DPS increases you will see your personal DPS numbers go up as well. |
Ok, just making sure I am not doing anything wrong.
Kurkis, after talking to you last night and doing some numbers on my own, I've come to the conclusion that while your numbers are incredible, your shot rotation and style of playing are only as good as they are because of the situation you are in. In fact, you'd be better off switching to a 1:1.5 or similar shot rotation after that initial burst period is over. You rely on the presence of leatherworkers, shamans, and other phenomenal dps to put out those kind of numbers. Someone in a guild where there isn't the leatherworking support, doesn't always get a shaman, or is forced to watch fights take longer because of the lack of dps from other players won't be able to put up nearly the same numbers as you are. You stated yourself, a large amount of the high dps is simply due to the speed of the fights- every second the fight ticks on past that first cooldown/trinket blowout, you're losing dps.
Without those haste effects, I feel it is pretty obvious that a 1:1.5 rotation is going to be higher dps than a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation. (feel free to comment on this, as it's one of the cornerstones of my argument) This means that as time goes to infinity in a fight, the 1:1.5 hunter will eventually pass the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter, even if the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter gains a temporary lead at the beginning. The 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation is dependant on those haste effects, without them it is inferior. This leads me to believe that the best strategy for dps is to use a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation while you are hasted (and push that haste as long as possible) and then at the point the haste wears off, switch to a 1:1.5 rotation.
This maximizes both phases of the dps- you're gaining the burst dps from the beginning of the fight when everyone is popping their cooldowns, and then switching to the rotation that will provide better dps for the portion of the fight when you are not receiving the necessary haste. Interestingly enough, this is in fact what most of us already do, you just haven't looked at it from this perspective before. Kurkis' guild is just extending that burst phase considerably longer than most of ours do, and that combined with the impact it has on total fight time means that you see a much larger dps.
In other words- Kurkis is doing the exact same thing as the rest of us (well, he's doing a 2:1 rotation instead of the 1:1 I personally use, but decently close) do, it is just because of his extreme situation (high raid dps combined with a large number of guild leatherworkers) that his numbers are so much higher than mine, and the others posted.
Without those haste effects, I feel it is pretty obvious that a 1:1.5 rotation is going to be higher dps than a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation. (feel free to comment on this, as it's one of the cornerstones of my argument) This means that as time goes to infinity in a fight, the 1:1.5 hunter will eventually pass the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter, even if the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter gains a temporary lead at the beginning. The 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation is dependant on those haste effects, without them it is inferior. This leads me to believe that the best strategy for dps is to use a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation while you are hasted (and push that haste as long as possible) and then at the point the haste wears off, switch to a 1:1.5 rotation.
This maximizes both phases of the dps- you're gaining the burst dps from the beginning of the fight when everyone is popping their cooldowns, and then switching to the rotation that will provide better dps for the portion of the fight when you are not receiving the necessary haste. Interestingly enough, this is in fact what most of us already do, you just haven't looked at it from this perspective before. Kurkis' guild is just extending that burst phase considerably longer than most of ours do, and that combined with the impact it has on total fight time means that you see a much larger dps.
In other words- Kurkis is doing the exact same thing as the rest of us (well, he's doing a 2:1 rotation instead of the 1:1 I personally use, but decently close) do, it is just because of his extreme situation (high raid dps combined with a large number of guild leatherworkers) that his numbers are so much higher than mine, and the others posted.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hey guys, for my alt hunter I am interested in trying the 0/20/41 build, but was wonder at what agility level/gear level I could do this relatively successfully. I have mostly pvp gear/gruul's/kara gear and a 3.00 speed bow (blue and crappy). And I can re-gem and re-enchant most of my gear for more agility, to about 500-550 agility.
armory= yarii on argent dawn.
Also, without the really nice haste trinkets and drums access I'd also like some advice on a shot rotation, from what I gather a 1:1.5 would be best? And is a spammable macro better than manual?
armory= yarii on argent dawn.
Also, without the really nice haste trinkets and drums access I'd also like some advice on a shot rotation, from what I gather a 1:1.5 would be best? And is a spammable macro better than manual?
Last edited by yarikh : 01/28/08 at 11:17 PM.
Yes, obviously if your raid has high DPS you are going to have higher personal DPS that goes hand in hand. However, you also cannot say if you are in a high DPS guild with drums you are going to produce huge numbers.
Drow's best performance on Rage is 12th which was obtained in one of the Hyjal logs I have posted here. This would mean there are 11 other guilds infront of us on that fight. A few days ago I looked at the fights from #1-#60 to compare my recent rage DPS to other top DPS guilds on that fight.
The only other hunter with comparable DPS to me is a BM hunter who I believe actually ran 10-20 more DPS then I did as Survival on the fight.
My point is if it is a matter of being in a top DPS guild and having 2-3 drums in the group means big numbers there would be more then 2 hunters in the top 60 Rage logs posting over 2100 dps. Now, I scrolled through those logs fairly quickly and may have missed somebody in there but if people are that concerned about it by all means look for yourself.
Being a Survival hunter means you get best group synergy w/ a Feral Druid and a Shaman. I expect to see those guys in my group. If some of you are in situations where you are Survival and being denied a shaman or druid then I feel for you and hope that you are able to show your raid leader the light and the importance of you having those 2 classes grouped with you.
But sure, I am not doing anything overly fancy or 'new age'. We shoot arrows and we have 3 shots to choose from in addition to our normal ones. I am favoring Steady shot moreso over the much talked about 1:1.5 rotation and I am just going to the extreme as far as trying to keep myself hasted as much as possible and this is not anything that is out of reach from anyone else reading these boards of doing.
I choose to do a 2:1 rotation over a 1:1.5 rotation on the slow times because after a few quivers of Timeless arrows on Boom I found that 2:1 for me does infact do more damage then 1:1.5, so I will stand by saying all hastes aside, 2:1 rotation is the best rotation available unless you spec specific something like 0/28/33.
I thought about when you told me to get 3/5 RWS because it was better then Master Tact. My only question to that is after thinking about it, why not just get 5/5 Imp Hawk and 2/2 FF. You lose 1% personal damage to give your pet 2% damage and you get Quick Shots over Barrage. This seems to be a better way to go since everyone pretty much agrees that being able to do a 1:1 rotation as a Survival hunter is a good thing. Why not set yourself up to do it more often by having Quick Shots? Just my thoughts.
Drow's best performance on Rage is 12th which was obtained in one of the Hyjal logs I have posted here. This would mean there are 11 other guilds infront of us on that fight. A few days ago I looked at the fights from #1-#60 to compare my recent rage DPS to other top DPS guilds on that fight.
The only other hunter with comparable DPS to me is a BM hunter who I believe actually ran 10-20 more DPS then I did as Survival on the fight.
My point is if it is a matter of being in a top DPS guild and having 2-3 drums in the group means big numbers there would be more then 2 hunters in the top 60 Rage logs posting over 2100 dps. Now, I scrolled through those logs fairly quickly and may have missed somebody in there but if people are that concerned about it by all means look for yourself.
Being a Survival hunter means you get best group synergy w/ a Feral Druid and a Shaman. I expect to see those guys in my group. If some of you are in situations where you are Survival and being denied a shaman or druid then I feel for you and hope that you are able to show your raid leader the light and the importance of you having those 2 classes grouped with you.
But sure, I am not doing anything overly fancy or 'new age'. We shoot arrows and we have 3 shots to choose from in addition to our normal ones. I am favoring Steady shot moreso over the much talked about 1:1.5 rotation and I am just going to the extreme as far as trying to keep myself hasted as much as possible and this is not anything that is out of reach from anyone else reading these boards of doing.
I choose to do a 2:1 rotation over a 1:1.5 rotation on the slow times because after a few quivers of Timeless arrows on Boom I found that 2:1 for me does infact do more damage then 1:1.5, so I will stand by saying all hastes aside, 2:1 rotation is the best rotation available unless you spec specific something like 0/28/33.
I thought about when you told me to get 3/5 RWS because it was better then Master Tact. My only question to that is after thinking about it, why not just get 5/5 Imp Hawk and 2/2 FF. You lose 1% personal damage to give your pet 2% damage and you get Quick Shots over Barrage. This seems to be a better way to go since everyone pretty much agrees that being able to do a 1:1 rotation as a Survival hunter is a good thing. Why not set yourself up to do it more often by having Quick Shots? Just my thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
The concept on how I play a Survival hunter is pretty simple.
BM hunters are the DPS powers that they are because they have 20% haste and a pet that does a good chunk of their damage. The idea here is to keep yourself hasted as much as you can during the fight so that you can run a solid 1:1 rotation allowing the benefits you get as a Survival hunter to help close the gap between Survival/MM damage and BM damage. |
I am currently examining WWS logs and my research is pointing out to MT instead of IAotH-Focused fire. And this because as a Survival, i don't expect the IAotH proc to be able to change my Steady, Steady, Auto into a 1-1 rotation and MT seems to proc often.
Feel free to share your views with me.
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Originally Posted by Numitor
Ok, just making sure I am not doing anything wrong.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by orsraunia
In my opinion you are, i may be wrong though. Why do you use Arcane Shot when it does less average damage than your Steady shot and at the same time it consumes more mana ? Additionally, that extra Steady shot that could replace that AS in your rotation is an extra chance for the BT trinket to proc.
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Wow Web Stats
I am pretty pleased with that.
Edit: In the above WWS, my arcane avg is 845 while my steady is 705.
Last edited by Numitor : 01/29/08 at 10:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
I choose to do a 2:1 rotation over a 1:1.5 rotation on the slow times because after a few quivers of Timeless arrows on Boom I found that 2:1 for me does infact do more damage then 1:1.5, so I will stand by saying all hastes aside, 2:1 rotation is the best rotation available unless you spec specific something like 0/28/33.
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However how could you accurately test a 1:1.5 vs. 2:1 on Boom when this would exclude the use of multi?
A 1:1.5 without multi is a weak 1:1.5 and you cannot use multi on boom tests because you will hit the bombs inflating your damage.
As far as all the IAoTH talent is concerned, most survival hunters do not take this talent because it results in a net loss in dps. Using a 1:1 rotation with 15% haste will not do as much damage as an unhasted 1:1.5 rotation. Then you must also consider the difficulty of switching rotations depending on random haste procs as well as the opportunity cost of those 5 talent points.
Hi Vasilli
Im back, we went to KZ last week and i got 3 upgrades, i bought a new trinket, and swapped out my shoulders.
0/20/41 Surv Spec still, i did re-spec and moved a few things around.
I now have 694 Agi and a 36% Crit, and 88 Hit, it was 93. Is 93 Hit all we need with 3/3 surefooted?
My bow is 2.90, my quiver is 15%
The macros i use:
First is CC and then No CC
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcance Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
I was using these 2 and now they quit working for me:
First is CC and then No CC
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Please let me know what you think about my gear, my spec, and my macros...THANKS
0/20/41 Surv Spec still, i did re-spec and moved a few things around.
I now have 694 Agi and a 36% Crit, and 88 Hit, it was 93. Is 93 Hit all we need with 3/3 surefooted?
My bow is 2.90, my quiver is 15%
The macros i use:
First is CC and then No CC
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcance Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
I was using these 2 and now they quit working for me:
First is CC and then No CC
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Please let me know what you think about my gear, my spec, and my macros...THANKS
A few weeks ago I was in the same group with a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman with the same amount of drums going off as I am now but using a 1:1.5 rotation like anyone else that plays a Survival Hunter.
Frankly, 1:1.5 of any form reached its peak DPS. People are going support how great it is until the end because you have several threads and tons of people saying it is the optimal way to play your hunter. Despite all of the evidence supporting the 1:1.5 rotation you did not see 2k+ Survival Hunters.
Gonktarget from Elitist Jerks without any doubt (whom looks to use a 1:1.5 rotation) is the Survival hunter that anyone who is playing Survival should be trying to aspire to based off his gear choices, gem choices and his history of DPS in WWS Logs. There is another Survival hunter whom his guild slips my mind and I am sure somebody will be quick to add that to his name but a hunter named Monco has also posted what is considered very good Survival numbers. With saying that I have not seen (aside from Teron) either of those players break 2k dps, let alone 2100 dps on any fight.
This information comes from just looking through various BT/Hyjal top 60 WWS log fights. This is not to say either of those players at some point in time did not post those numbers using a 1:1.5 rotation during a non-record setting boss kill.
The general attitude among the hunter community is and pardon me for saying it, "Hey, my damage may suck compared to that BM hunter in my raid but I give the raid Expose Weakness which is the best DPS buff in the game and because I am a team player (unlike my BM hunter buddy who wasn't willing to go Survival) I did it to help my guild."
I would be really suprised if the majority of you tell me you haven't said it yourself or heard somebody say that before.
It seems pretty apparent (because nobody did it) that a 1:1.5 rotation whether you are spec'd 0/20/41 or 0/28/31 wasn't gonna cut it and the vibe I got from reading these forums was, "Welp, it is what it is, we buff the raid anyways".
I pursue'd several top 50 guild Survival/MM hunters in some attempt to discuss what everyone was doing and try to tweak or add to it. I tried to find Howitzer many times but he has apparently quit and I've also tried to find Gonktarget but with how everyone raids anymore (2 days a week) it is difficult to find anyone. Good thing Doomhammer is a pro server and we also have an exceptionally good Horde guild named Juggernaut. I went over and spoke to their main hunter (Crat) and we both came to a conclusion that the only way a Survival hunter would be considered a solid DPS spec would be to keep yourself hasted as much as possible and run a 1:1 rotation.
I ran with it and spec'd 7/20/34 and tested it using a 1:1.5 rotation during slow times. Doing this I again, still had the Druid and Shaman that I do now with drums. The damage was definately better but having DST, Quick Shots, Drums, Heroisms, Rapid Fires, Haste pots all going in different combinations it made it virtually impossible to keep-up an optimal shot rotation.
I went to 0/20/41 (the spec I am now) and tested it and found the Master Tact gave better results then having Quick Shots and FF. I've done both, I like 0/20/41 myself so I will keep that for now. Other people are chiming in and also partial to having Master Tact over Quick Shots.
Talk about this new 2:1 rotation and using /cast !Auto Shot and /cast Steady Shot and how the scaling of Steady Shot works with your gear and the obvious benefits of 4 piece T6 bonus I went ahead and tried it out for myself. I ran with it, made some adjustments and I am where I am with it.
I'm not here to preach to anyone that what I am doing is the end all way to do things. I posted what has thus far been some of the highest Survival numbers ever seen before to show that a Survival hunter can actually do a considerable amount of DPS and that your slot in the raid isn't to just put Expose Weakness up and collect all of the mail loot your Enhancement Shamans already own.
I believe at this point I am on to something and I would like to improve upon that which is why I read these boards like anyone else. I will be blunt and say a simple 1:1.5 rotation alone is not the answer, it will not work, period. If you want to tell me that it does then I ask that you post your WWS logs showing that standing there unhasted (because there are posts of people in this very thread telling people to not even use any types of haste because it isn't as good as a 2.61 speed 1:1.5 using RWS...) is getting you 2k DPS consistantly.
For those of you who have been keeping up with this thread over the last few days and make sense of what it is I am trying to explain in these walls of text and plan on either trying it out for yourselves or trying some variation of it in hopes to improve upon it, I invite you to post those results so that we can see them. It works best for you to post Hyjal and BT boss kills because it allows us to use the same mobs for comparison. Even if you are in a guild that is new in the T6 content and you try this out and find that your DPS went up from what it usually is, then post the log and explain what you did.
Fortunately, my hunter was not leveled by the Chinese recently and I have been around long enough to understand everything that comes with a 1:1.5 rotation. Obviously, had I been convinced that it was the very best way to play a Survival hunter I wouldn't be showing you the logs I have.
Frankly, 1:1.5 of any form reached its peak DPS. People are going support how great it is until the end because you have several threads and tons of people saying it is the optimal way to play your hunter. Despite all of the evidence supporting the 1:1.5 rotation you did not see 2k+ Survival Hunters.
Gonktarget from Elitist Jerks without any doubt (whom looks to use a 1:1.5 rotation) is the Survival hunter that anyone who is playing Survival should be trying to aspire to based off his gear choices, gem choices and his history of DPS in WWS Logs. There is another Survival hunter whom his guild slips my mind and I am sure somebody will be quick to add that to his name but a hunter named Monco has also posted what is considered very good Survival numbers. With saying that I have not seen (aside from Teron) either of those players break 2k dps, let alone 2100 dps on any fight.
This information comes from just looking through various BT/Hyjal top 60 WWS log fights. This is not to say either of those players at some point in time did not post those numbers using a 1:1.5 rotation during a non-record setting boss kill.
The general attitude among the hunter community is and pardon me for saying it, "Hey, my damage may suck compared to that BM hunter in my raid but I give the raid Expose Weakness which is the best DPS buff in the game and because I am a team player (unlike my BM hunter buddy who wasn't willing to go Survival) I did it to help my guild."
I would be really suprised if the majority of you tell me you haven't said it yourself or heard somebody say that before.
It seems pretty apparent (because nobody did it) that a 1:1.5 rotation whether you are spec'd 0/20/41 or 0/28/31 wasn't gonna cut it and the vibe I got from reading these forums was, "Welp, it is what it is, we buff the raid anyways".
I pursue'd several top 50 guild Survival/MM hunters in some attempt to discuss what everyone was doing and try to tweak or add to it. I tried to find Howitzer many times but he has apparently quit and I've also tried to find Gonktarget but with how everyone raids anymore (2 days a week) it is difficult to find anyone. Good thing Doomhammer is a pro server and we also have an exceptionally good Horde guild named Juggernaut. I went over and spoke to their main hunter (Crat) and we both came to a conclusion that the only way a Survival hunter would be considered a solid DPS spec would be to keep yourself hasted as much as possible and run a 1:1 rotation.
I ran with it and spec'd 7/20/34 and tested it using a 1:1.5 rotation during slow times. Doing this I again, still had the Druid and Shaman that I do now with drums. The damage was definately better but having DST, Quick Shots, Drums, Heroisms, Rapid Fires, Haste pots all going in different combinations it made it virtually impossible to keep-up an optimal shot rotation.
I went to 0/20/41 (the spec I am now) and tested it and found the Master Tact gave better results then having Quick Shots and FF. I've done both, I like 0/20/41 myself so I will keep that for now. Other people are chiming in and also partial to having Master Tact over Quick Shots.
Talk about this new 2:1 rotation and using /cast !Auto Shot and /cast Steady Shot and how the scaling of Steady Shot works with your gear and the obvious benefits of 4 piece T6 bonus I went ahead and tried it out for myself. I ran with it, made some adjustments and I am where I am with it.
I'm not here to preach to anyone that what I am doing is the end all way to do things. I posted what has thus far been some of the highest Survival numbers ever seen before to show that a Survival hunter can actually do a considerable amount of DPS and that your slot in the raid isn't to just put Expose Weakness up and collect all of the mail loot your Enhancement Shamans already own.
I believe at this point I am on to something and I would like to improve upon that which is why I read these boards like anyone else. I will be blunt and say a simple 1:1.5 rotation alone is not the answer, it will not work, period. If you want to tell me that it does then I ask that you post your WWS logs showing that standing there unhasted (because there are posts of people in this very thread telling people to not even use any types of haste because it isn't as good as a 2.61 speed 1:1.5 using RWS...) is getting you 2k DPS consistantly.
For those of you who have been keeping up with this thread over the last few days and make sense of what it is I am trying to explain in these walls of text and plan on either trying it out for yourselves or trying some variation of it in hopes to improve upon it, I invite you to post those results so that we can see them. It works best for you to post Hyjal and BT boss kills because it allows us to use the same mobs for comparison. Even if you are in a guild that is new in the T6 content and you try this out and find that your DPS went up from what it usually is, then post the log and explain what you did.
Fortunately, my hunter was not leveled by the Chinese recently and I have been around long enough to understand everything that comes with a 1:1.5 rotation. Obviously, had I been convinced that it was the very best way to play a Survival hunter I wouldn't be showing you the logs I have.
I can't speak for the others who have posted in this thread, but you still have yet to address the issue I've brought forward in a previous post, with respect to the behavior of auto shot since the last major patch. The shot rotation visualization that I copy and pasted a few pages back has been the bible by which most of the current day hunter shot mechanics have been built on. Now suddenly that's inaccurate, and you can get 2 steady shots off prior to an auto shot with little to no clipping, meanwhile this game breaking change goes undocumented by Blizzard. Doesn't that raise a flag?
The point I've been trying to make to you is that you're current non-hasted shot rotation is the result of an auto shot bug. When 2.4 hits, we should revisit what you've built up to be the ultimate survival shot rotation when non-hasted.
The point I've been trying to make to you is that you're current non-hasted shot rotation is the result of an auto shot bug. When 2.4 hits, we should revisit what you've built up to be the ultimate survival shot rotation when non-hasted.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Thats some very nice info, i had to flip back a few pages as well to get the whole story.
I can out damage some BM hunters, when i have a SP and a Sham in the group, if im stuck in a group with others my DPS is gonna fall below the BM hunter 9 of 10 times, i am the only surv hunter in my guild, that i know of.
I think my role as a Surv hunter does help the guild, we each have a role to play in the raid.
4/5 T4 pieces i wear 3 of them, i have the chest from Hydross, gloves from Gruul and my dps is not that bad, well i hope it isn't. My play style favors SV/MM and i have never tried the BM end of it.
Well thats my Story... see you guys soon
I can out damage some BM hunters, when i have a SP and a Sham in the group, if im stuck in a group with others my DPS is gonna fall below the BM hunter 9 of 10 times, i am the only surv hunter in my guild, that i know of.
I think my role as a Surv hunter does help the guild, we each have a role to play in the raid.
4/5 T4 pieces i wear 3 of them, i have the chest from Hydross, gloves from Gruul and my dps is not that bad, well i hope it isn't. My play style favors SV/MM and i have never tried the BM end of it.
Well thats my Story... see you guys soon
Last edited by five : 01/30/08 at 2:05 AM. Reason: General Idiocy
Maybe a little off subject but still a valid question.
So I scanned through the numerous pages that are listed in the Survival Hunter's Mechanics thread and didnt really find anything as to whats a good amount of agility to have. I know it is ultimately going to depend on the level of progression the guild has reached, but my guild is about to start doing Hyjal and BT. We just killed Kael two weeks ago and Rage last week. I currently have about 828 agi in pve gear unbuffed. Is that a good number to be at?
I then also got into the discussion about balance between stacking as much agi as possible and losing a ton of ap. I mean the survival build is focused on buffing the raid right. So buffed with 1000 agi is right at 250 ap for phsyical damage and with that much agility the crit rating with buffs is going to be relatively high and assuming that the hunter has the 3/3 Expose Weakness (EW) it should be up for most of the fight on single target bosses. So I guess my real question is if you have really low ap but super high agility your dps will be much lower. So once you've reached a certain amount of agility at what point do you start trying to up your attack power? And what is the amount of agility you want to be at unbuffed?
I then also got into the discussion about balance between stacking as much agi as possible and losing a ton of ap. I mean the survival build is focused on buffing the raid right. So buffed with 1000 agi is right at 250 ap for phsyical damage and with that much agility the crit rating with buffs is going to be relatively high and assuming that the hunter has the 3/3 Expose Weakness (EW) it should be up for most of the fight on single target bosses. So I guess my real question is if you have really low ap but super high agility your dps will be much lower. So once you've reached a certain amount of agility at what point do you start trying to up your attack power? And what is the amount of agility you want to be at unbuffed?
You are missing the boat here CSM.
Yes, I use this macro for my 2:1 rotation and what I have tried to explain to you in a post is that it doesn't matter. Right now if you use
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
You can get 2 Steady Shots and it pushes your Auto shot back by .5 seconds.
Using just the Steady Shot button right out of your spellbook you get the same results.
For some people doing this they do less DPS then using a tradional castsequence macro and a 1:1.5 rotation because their gear does NOT support the increased use of Steady Shot.
Blizzard hotfixed the 'bug' that was happening with our macros a couple of weeks ago. They re-addressed hunter macros with a fix to the /castsequence in patch 2.3.3 -
And for the sake of argument we can use the traditional 1:1.5 rotation inplace of the 2:1.
To make it clear a 1:1 rotation under the ideal circumstances (hasted) is with no question the very best means of producing DPS.
You have most fights running 2.5 - 3 minutes. Right now the best I've figured out is to keep myself hasted for 1.5 minutes of the fight. For atleast 1/2 of the fight I am in what is considered to be an ideal weapon speed to properly execute a 1:1 rotation. In short you've now just become a BM hunter but instead of having a buffed pet you have more AP from LR/SI then your BM counterpart and you are going to have a crit rating that is (to keep round numbers) 10% better then your BM counterpart. Common sense will tell you that the Survival Hunter is going to out DPS the BM hunter in those conditions because you in your own round about way just obtained one of the key strengths of the BM Spec which is speed.
After that, all you need to do is sustain what you have created.
So the questions here is what is the best way to keep yourself doing a 1:1 rotation? What is the best way to sustain the damage once the 1:1 rotation is over? Which spec best supports this style of play? Can Teron's gun play a major role in our DPS.
Whether you are using 2:1 or 1:1.5 rotation it doesn't matter. If executed properly and with 1-2 DST procs there is no reason either of those rotations will not be sufficient enough to make it till the end of the fight after that 1.5 minutes of haste is over.
CSM-EH if you are playing your spec the way you have created it by having Imp Arcane, Barrage then you should have no real interest at all about keeping yourself hasted for any lengthy period of time because it would then cause you to not utilize the purpose of your spec. What I am saying to you is that a slow and old 1:1.5 rotation at 2.61 weapon speed no matter how you spec for it will not give you the results that you are trying to achieve.
If they did, somebody would have posted their logs or pointed all of us in the direction of the logs that show the guy using this type of spec and rotation producing those numbers. This would have been done long ago and all of us including myself would be following what that person is doing.
I want a 1:1 rotation as much as possible - When I can't have what I want I use a 2:1 rotation and if for some reason a 2:1 rotation is not available I use a 1:1.5 rotation and I am confident the results will be very similar because the amount of time I am ever having to use a 2:1 or 1:1.5 rotation is so limited the DPS difference between the two for that short amount of time is minimal when it is factored into the entire course of the fight.
I thought yesterday I was able to clear this up with you. Hopefully after addressing this for a second time I have.
Yes, I use this macro for my 2:1 rotation and what I have tried to explain to you in a post is that it doesn't matter. Right now if you use
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
You can get 2 Steady Shots and it pushes your Auto shot back by .5 seconds.
Using just the Steady Shot button right out of your spellbook you get the same results.
For some people doing this they do less DPS then using a tradional castsequence macro and a 1:1.5 rotation because their gear does NOT support the increased use of Steady Shot.
Blizzard hotfixed the 'bug' that was happening with our macros a couple of weeks ago. They re-addressed hunter macros with a fix to the /castsequence in patch 2.3.3 -
And for the sake of argument we can use the traditional 1:1.5 rotation inplace of the 2:1.
To make it clear a 1:1 rotation under the ideal circumstances (hasted) is with no question the very best means of producing DPS.
You have most fights running 2.5 - 3 minutes. Right now the best I've figured out is to keep myself hasted for 1.5 minutes of the fight. For atleast 1/2 of the fight I am in what is considered to be an ideal weapon speed to properly execute a 1:1 rotation. In short you've now just become a BM hunter but instead of having a buffed pet you have more AP from LR/SI then your BM counterpart and you are going to have a crit rating that is (to keep round numbers) 10% better then your BM counterpart. Common sense will tell you that the Survival Hunter is going to out DPS the BM hunter in those conditions because you in your own round about way just obtained one of the key strengths of the BM Spec which is speed.
After that, all you need to do is sustain what you have created.
So the questions here is what is the best way to keep yourself doing a 1:1 rotation? What is the best way to sustain the damage once the 1:1 rotation is over? Which spec best supports this style of play? Can Teron's gun play a major role in our DPS.
Whether you are using 2:1 or 1:1.5 rotation it doesn't matter. If executed properly and with 1-2 DST procs there is no reason either of those rotations will not be sufficient enough to make it till the end of the fight after that 1.5 minutes of haste is over.
CSM-EH if you are playing your spec the way you have created it by having Imp Arcane, Barrage then you should have no real interest at all about keeping yourself hasted for any lengthy period of time because it would then cause you to not utilize the purpose of your spec. What I am saying to you is that a slow and old 1:1.5 rotation at 2.61 weapon speed no matter how you spec for it will not give you the results that you are trying to achieve.
If they did, somebody would have posted their logs or pointed all of us in the direction of the logs that show the guy using this type of spec and rotation producing those numbers. This would have been done long ago and all of us including myself would be following what that person is doing.
I want a 1:1 rotation as much as possible - When I can't have what I want I use a 2:1 rotation and if for some reason a 2:1 rotation is not available I use a 1:1.5 rotation and I am confident the results will be very similar because the amount of time I am ever having to use a 2:1 or 1:1.5 rotation is so limited the DPS difference between the two for that short amount of time is minimal when it is factored into the entire course of the fight.
I thought yesterday I was able to clear this up with you. Hopefully after addressing this for a second time I have.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
The general attitude among the hunter community is and pardon me for saying it, "Hey, my damage may suck compared to that BM hunter in my raid but I give the raid Expose Weakness which is the best DPS buff in the game and because I am a team player (unlike my BM hunter buddy who wasn't willing to go Survival) I did it to help my guild."
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I disagree with the statement that survival hunters can't keep up with BMs. I do agree that at lower gear levels and with getting the same buffs that it is very difficult to keep up with good BM hunters. However, once a Survival hunter gets sufficient agility, has the optimal raid buffs for a survival hunter, and finds the best talent choices for the hunter's gear and buffs, and correctly determines the optimal rotation for their gear, talents, and buffs, then they can give BM hunters a run for their money and even beat them. I currently beat both our BM hunters often in raids. I realize part of this is because I get the druid and shaman group more often to optimize the EW benefits, but I still out perform them a fair share when we are in the same raid group.
I also believe that generally survival hunters provide other benefits to the raid besides our DPS and EW proc. Compared to other hunters, we generally make better pullers. We should generally have the extra 6 yards of range to make pulling easier (although that talent is easy for BMs and MMs to get but BMs usually do not since it prevents 5/5 mortal shots). Our damage/threat generated over the 3 MD shots is going to generally be much better than that for a BM hunter since we do more damage per shot and is comparable to that for a MM. In addition, the 3 MD shots almost guarantees that EW is up by the time the raid starts attacking that target. Plus, if we have Readiness, we can often do pulls faster allowing for a more efficient work through the trash.
Also, due to the extra dodge and armor from all the extra agility, avoidance if specced with Deterrence, Survival Instincts and Survivalist, we also make the best hunter tanks in the situations in which one is needed. We are not called "Survival" hunters for nothing.
I personally take a lot of pride in being a Survival hunter and what we provide to the raid and have never played any other spec (farthest from Survival have been is a 0/31/30 spec when my agi was still low enough where EW didn't have as much benefit yet early on after starting BC) nor plan to.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
the only way a Survival hunter would be considered a solid DPS spec would be to keep yourself hasted as much as possible and run a 1:1 rotation.
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You have chosen a method that works good for your character (gear and talents), playing style, guild's performance, and raid buffs you receive. There is no doubt that what you are doing works good for you, and it is very valuable information to share with Survival hunters in general. I know a lot of us appreciate this information and are evaluating it for whether it improves our hunters given our characters (gear and talents), playing styles, guilds' performance, and raid buffs we receive.
I have taken the time to do some brief analysis and actual evaluations of your approach (at least as much as I can do with the number of LWs in my group), and under my current situation (which isn't in an end game guild), I experience a noticeable loss of DPS (no I do not have WWS) as well as complexity to playing. So for now, I plan to stick to the approach that I have evaluated to be the best for me currently. I will keep your approach in mind though when I reevaluate my character as it and my guild progresses.
EDIT: I saw an additional post from Kurkis after the one I replied to but before mine that stated "For some people doing this they do less DPS then using a tradional castsequence macro and a 1:1.5 rotation because their gear does NOT support the increased use of Steady Shot.". This is the situation that I am currently in and a point I was trying to make.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 01/29/08 at 5:29 PM. Reason: Address additional post from Kurkis
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Originally Posted by zerobahamut85
So I scanned through the numerous pages that are listed in the Survival Hunter's Mechanics thread and didnt really find anything as to whats a good amount of agility to have. I know it is ultimately going to depend on the level of progression the guild has reached, but my guild is about to start doing Hyjal and BT. We just killed Kael two weeks ago and Rage last week. I currently have about 828 agi in pve gear unbuffed. Is that a good number to be at?
I then also got into the discussion about balance between stacking as much agi as possible and losing a ton of ap. I mean the survival build is focused on buffing the raid right. So buffed with 1000 agi is right at 250 ap for phsyical damage and with that much agility the crit rating with buffs is going to be relatively high and assuming that the hunter has the 3/3 Expose Weakness (EW) it should be up for most of the fight on single target bosses. So I guess my real question is if you have really low ap but super high agility your dps will be much lower. So once you've reached a certain amount of agility at what point do you start trying to up your attack power? And what is the amount of agility you want to be at unbuffed? |
As far as knowing how to balance agility, crit, and AP, I find it to be a difficult task to perform in your head or on the back of a napkin. I suggest using some type of tool, such as Cheeky's hunter spreadheet (Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development), to help you see the potential pluses and minuses of gear and gem choices. My method is that I record, my DPS, time to OOM, EW uptime, and average EW proc for my different choices and make the appropriate tradeoff analysis to determine which item to use. As a general rule, I usually choose more agi than anything else since it increases your crit and AP and unlike crit and AP, it scales with both LR and BoK.
To Kurkis:
I agree with you, on the point that acquiring haste to permit a 1:1 rotation with 4 piece T6 leads to the best possible survival dps. This is why I hope Blizzard puts a ~2.2 speed weapon into Sunwell (not holding my breath).
As to the 1:1.5 rotation supposedly being "poor" for dps, I'd disagree. It's obviously not quite as optimal as a perfect 1:1, but I hardly think 1972 dps (WWS) is poor. I wish I had more to link, but I tend to sit out much of Hyjal and early BT for our other hunters as of late. Note that I'm still using BB + Hourglass and not BC + MotB and I still need another Dagger of Bad Mojo. I use Mysterious Arrows over Timeless (for farm content I'm a cheap bastard), and I don't bother using any extra consumables over Major Agility and Warp Burgers. My ping is roughly 300 MS average, with random spikes (wireless ftl) and I use nary a macro and consequently clip the occasional shot when my latency changes. Not to mention I rarely get the optimal group of Feral/Shaman/BM/BM/Myself. If I went balls-to-the-walls with optimal gear, consumables, ammunition and group comp, I'm pretty sure 2.1k dps with a primarily 1:1.5 rotation is entirely reasonable.
But, damnit, I still want a 2.1-2.3 speed ranged weapon.
I agree with you, on the point that acquiring haste to permit a 1:1 rotation with 4 piece T6 leads to the best possible survival dps. This is why I hope Blizzard puts a ~2.2 speed weapon into Sunwell (not holding my breath).
As to the 1:1.5 rotation supposedly being "poor" for dps, I'd disagree. It's obviously not quite as optimal as a perfect 1:1, but I hardly think 1972 dps (WWS) is poor. I wish I had more to link, but I tend to sit out much of Hyjal and early BT for our other hunters as of late. Note that I'm still using BB + Hourglass and not BC + MotB and I still need another Dagger of Bad Mojo. I use Mysterious Arrows over Timeless (for farm content I'm a cheap bastard), and I don't bother using any extra consumables over Major Agility and Warp Burgers. My ping is roughly 300 MS average, with random spikes (wireless ftl) and I use nary a macro and consequently clip the occasional shot when my latency changes. Not to mention I rarely get the optimal group of Feral/Shaman/BM/BM/Myself. If I went balls-to-the-walls with optimal gear, consumables, ammunition and group comp, I'm pretty sure 2.1k dps with a primarily 1:1.5 rotation is entirely reasonable.
But, damnit, I still want a 2.1-2.3 speed ranged weapon.
Poor is going to be viewed differently by different people. Sure for a Survival hunter 1972 is good and you could perhaps push that to 2100 with a 1:1.5 rotation. I haven't seen it done yet but I do not doubt it is possible.
You could then respec the following week to BM and using a 1:1 rotation beat your personal best as a Survival with no problem.
It looks to me like the 1:1.5 rotation will not really ever compete with a BM hunter of equal gear/experience running a 1:1 rotation on any sort of a consistant basis. Hence the word poor. It is a poor rotation for trying to compete with BM hunter DPS. I'm obviously trying to compete with BM dps here, not what is considered good Survival DPS. Some of those fights I posted definately compete and in some cases surpass most BM hunter dps. This tells me that the Survival spec has a chance to be a superior DPS spec like the BM spec is as opposed to a "good" DPS spec.
When I say if there are guys out there running a 1:1.5 rotation and posting good numbers, I mean good numbers in relation to what your BM hunters run. Which on Gorefiend most of your BM hunters are running 2100-2300 dps with exceptions. There are always exceptions so when I say something like the general attitude about hunters just means most people are this way, not all.
My Teron DPS was 2078 and that is poor to me when trying to compete with BM hunters and I need to do better and will see if that happens tonight. I think it is possible to hit 2200-2300 on Teron simply because I was able to break 2100s on the Hyjal fights.
Hope that clears things up - I'm not saying anyone with a 1:1.5 shot rotation sucks, is doing it wrong, can't play WoW I am just saying that I it is my opinion that rotation will never be able to hang with the well played BM hunters in our world.
You could then respec the following week to BM and using a 1:1 rotation beat your personal best as a Survival with no problem.
It looks to me like the 1:1.5 rotation will not really ever compete with a BM hunter of equal gear/experience running a 1:1 rotation on any sort of a consistant basis. Hence the word poor. It is a poor rotation for trying to compete with BM hunter DPS. I'm obviously trying to compete with BM dps here, not what is considered good Survival DPS. Some of those fights I posted definately compete and in some cases surpass most BM hunter dps. This tells me that the Survival spec has a chance to be a superior DPS spec like the BM spec is as opposed to a "good" DPS spec.
When I say if there are guys out there running a 1:1.5 rotation and posting good numbers, I mean good numbers in relation to what your BM hunters run. Which on Gorefiend most of your BM hunters are running 2100-2300 dps with exceptions. There are always exceptions so when I say something like the general attitude about hunters just means most people are this way, not all.
My Teron DPS was 2078 and that is poor to me when trying to compete with BM hunters and I need to do better and will see if that happens tonight. I think it is possible to hit 2200-2300 on Teron simply because I was able to break 2100s on the Hyjal fights.
Hope that clears things up - I'm not saying anyone with a 1:1.5 shot rotation sucks, is doing it wrong, can't play WoW I am just saying that I it is my opinion that rotation will never be able to hang with the well played BM hunters in our world.
About the highest DPS I saw with a 1.5:1 on a boss fight that did not have an ability that boosted my damage was around 1900, that being Teron Gorefiend/Rage Winterchill. I've been using the 2:1 rotation for the last month or so, and while I don't see a huge damage increase (some but not a ton), I have a much better mana efficiency for basically the same damage. Last Winterchill I pulled 1850 dps with a scorpid pet I was leveling loyalty for PvP purposes and didn't use Kill Command. Next time I'll have my Wind Serpent with me and would expect to pull around 2k, and lord help us all if we ever get a feral druid in the hunter group.
I had posted this in an obscure thread on the WoW hunter forums in regards to 1.5:1 and 2:1 comparisons, maybe here would have been a better place:
"My best source to compare was Azgalor as I had the exact same buffs and did not get doomed this week or last week.
Using my 1.5:1 rotation with multi/arcane weaving, last week I netted 1402dps on the fight, thats with a shadow priest, at no time was I forced to interrupt my rotation or ran out of mana.
Using my 2:1 rotation of steady/auto this week I netted 1421dps on the fight. We didn't have a shadow priest this time, a warlock instead, so other than Blood pact, no extra or new buffs, and much less mana regen. I used only one major mana pot the entire fight and never ran out of mana.
While this is only one comparison, being that many of the variables were controlled, I can at least draw from this that the DPS is about the same, but the DPM is much better in 2:1 when its just steady spam vs arcane/multi.
A side effect from this, is with more raid testing to back up these conclusions, is that the BT hunter trinket becomes infinitely better than it originally appeared to be using 2:1. With a 15% proc rate and 40 Steadys per minute, it will have an average of 6 procs per minute. While an ideal situation they wouldn't overwrite, in reality they do, just like EW, ImpAoTH, etc. The ideal situation would provide 48s of uptime every 60s. That won't be the case except for the rare times that you get extremely lucky. I would (without doing all the number punching that it would take) expect 30s or so of uptime over 60s. That effectively averages out to be 137.5 ap.
When compared to Berserker's Call, the static 90ap + (360ap x 20s uptime /120s cooldown) averages out to be 150ap if the activate is used when its up every time. So in comparison to raw numbers, Berserker's Call still edges it out, but keep in mind that while that AP averages out, its more bursty, vs the BT trinket which will be a more consistent increase. The advantage this gives to Berserker's call is that timed up with rapid fire it can be a very nice damage increase over a short duration. The advantage this gives to the BT trinket is that it doesn't get screwed over in the event you have to move/interrupt/stop damage for something, which could hamper the effectiveness of the activated Berserker's Call. "
I would not say that 1.5:1 is poor dps given that top 5 dps along with providing the raid (including the BM hunters and pets) 300ap from EW is pretty damn good, but I enjoy doing all that and not being mana starved by using the 2:1.
I had posted this in an obscure thread on the WoW hunter forums in regards to 1.5:1 and 2:1 comparisons, maybe here would have been a better place:
"My best source to compare was Azgalor as I had the exact same buffs and did not get doomed this week or last week.
Using my 1.5:1 rotation with multi/arcane weaving, last week I netted 1402dps on the fight, thats with a shadow priest, at no time was I forced to interrupt my rotation or ran out of mana.
Using my 2:1 rotation of steady/auto this week I netted 1421dps on the fight. We didn't have a shadow priest this time, a warlock instead, so other than Blood pact, no extra or new buffs, and much less mana regen. I used only one major mana pot the entire fight and never ran out of mana.
While this is only one comparison, being that many of the variables were controlled, I can at least draw from this that the DPS is about the same, but the DPM is much better in 2:1 when its just steady spam vs arcane/multi.
A side effect from this, is with more raid testing to back up these conclusions, is that the BT hunter trinket becomes infinitely better than it originally appeared to be using 2:1. With a 15% proc rate and 40 Steadys per minute, it will have an average of 6 procs per minute. While an ideal situation they wouldn't overwrite, in reality they do, just like EW, ImpAoTH, etc. The ideal situation would provide 48s of uptime every 60s. That won't be the case except for the rare times that you get extremely lucky. I would (without doing all the number punching that it would take) expect 30s or so of uptime over 60s. That effectively averages out to be 137.5 ap.
When compared to Berserker's Call, the static 90ap + (360ap x 20s uptime /120s cooldown) averages out to be 150ap if the activate is used when its up every time. So in comparison to raw numbers, Berserker's Call still edges it out, but keep in mind that while that AP averages out, its more bursty, vs the BT trinket which will be a more consistent increase. The advantage this gives to Berserker's call is that timed up with rapid fire it can be a very nice damage increase over a short duration. The advantage this gives to the BT trinket is that it doesn't get screwed over in the event you have to move/interrupt/stop damage for something, which could hamper the effectiveness of the activated Berserker's Call. "
I would not say that 1.5:1 is poor dps given that top 5 dps along with providing the raid (including the BM hunters and pets) 300ap from EW is pretty damn good, but I enjoy doing all that and not being mana starved by using the 2:1.
Anyone able to help me out, I seem to have the AGI but I dont have the Crit that all of you are getting. Thoughts?
This is why I mentioned earlier that the best weapon at the moment for a survival hunter could be the Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker.
With a quiver you should have a ROF of around 2.2.
Rapid Fire = 1.61 ROF.
Heroism = 1.74 ROF.
IAotH = 1.96 ROF.
I have been advocating the 1:1 rotation, it mana efficient, and as a whole survival hunters are least likely to get good group synergy. (At least that has been my experience.)
It has opened my eyes with regards to picking up readiness. When I see the damage output some of you 20/41 guys are able to put it, I find that I am disappointed with the 7/20/34 build.
With a quiver you should have a ROF of around 2.2.
Rapid Fire = 1.61 ROF.
Heroism = 1.74 ROF.
IAotH = 1.96 ROF.
I have been advocating the 1:1 rotation, it mana efficient, and as a whole survival hunters are least likely to get good group synergy. (At least that has been my experience.)
It has opened my eyes with regards to picking up readiness. When I see the damage output some of you 20/41 guys are able to put it, I find that I am disappointed with the 7/20/34 build.
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Originally Posted by jsegrich
Anyone able to help me out, I seem to have the AGI but I dont have the Crit that all of you are getting. Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
It looks to me like the 1:1.5 rotation will not really ever compete with a BM hunter of equal gear/experience running a 1:1 rotation on any sort of a consistant basis. Hence the word poor. It is a poor rotation for trying to compete with BM hunter DPS. I'm obviously trying to compete with BM dps here, not what is considered good Survival DPS. Some of those fights I posted definately compete and in some cases surpass most BM hunter dps. This tells me that the Survival spec has a chance to be a superior DPS spec like the BM spec is as opposed to a "good" DPS spec.
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Blizzard itemization of ranged weapons into a very narrow range is the main aggravation factor.
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Originally Posted by five
Please let me know what you think about my gear, my spec, and my macros...THANKS
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As fear as gear goes you're gear is looking pretty good, there are some upgrades you could make though.
Trinekts --> Really try to get a bloodlust brooch, I believe its only 50 badges which you can acquire very quickly with the occasional kara/ZA run. You could also replace the silver cross with the Hourglass until you can pick up Berserker's Call from ZA or [Tsunami Talisman] from SSC.
Belt / Bracers --> This is area where you need to change those pieces as a survival hunter, gear with no agility on it is not ideal especially when they're are several pieces you can pick up. For bracers I'd go with [Steadying Bracers] from badges or just wait until [Bands of the Celestial Archer] drop from SSC/TK trash.
A belt upgrade you can grab [Girdle of Treachery] from Kara or [Dunewind Sash] from heroic UB.
Other than that your gear is looking pretty good expect for some gemming choices. You will almost always want to ignore socket bonuses and just go for +8 agility gems. You should have 2 yellow gems, 2 blue gems to meet your meta requirement and the rest +8 agility gems. For yellow put either +4 agility/+4 hit, or +8 AP/+4 Crit. For blue always use +4 agility/+6 stam. For your current gear set you are slightly below the hit cap of 96, so I would replace 2 yellow sockets with +4 agility +4 hit.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Vasilii
Thank you for the gear upgrade pointers.
I hope to see the Bands of the Celestial Archer and the Tsunami Talisman soon.
We have Hydross on farm and we are working on Lurker, i hope we get him this week.
I will start saving my badges again, the last trinket i bought cost 75. So i need to go back to KZ/ZA.
Do you use this macro?
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I think i will give it a try and see what happens tonight in SSC.
Thanks Again
I hope to see the Bands of the Celestial Archer and the Tsunami Talisman soon.
We have Hydross on farm and we are working on Lurker, i hope we get him this week.
I will start saving my badges again, the last trinket i bought cost 75. So i need to go back to KZ/ZA.
Do you use this macro?
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I think i will give it a try and see what happens tonight in SSC.
Thanks Again
Depending on gear and raid setup, each one of us can test and see what works best for him. I mention this, because most of the people that get involved in such discussions (which rotation is better) support one or another view, having in mind their gear and their guild's usual raid setup.
To make it specific, in our raids we usually use 1 hunter and in his group there is a SP, so mana efficiency is not an issue. During the last months i am BM (i switch between BM and survival every few months, depending on needs) and i have been using the so called 2:1 rotation, although i don't like calling it 2:1.
It produced very good results for me, using DST and Ashtongue talisman of Swiftness. During being hasted, even by just IAotH, it was being transformed to a 1-1 rotation.
The "philosophy" behind this is obvious and simple. It's trying to be hasted as much possible (Drums, DST, e.t.c.) and utilize your steady shot as much possible (due to T6 4set bonus and due to increased trinkets procs). I want to keep my post short and to the point, so i'll not give lists of numbers, but just some general conclusions/remarks i noticed during testing (note that i am talking about a BM hunter with a 3.0 speed ranged weapon)
a. using the 2:1 you take better advantage of haste effects like (DST) procs
b. Ashtongue talisman procs a lot more
The difference is not huge, but it's good.
Note that i am not trying to prove anything, i am just giving my view and experience on something i am doing for some time now. You can try yourselves (if you have a SP in your party) and see if it works for you too. Of course take in mind that i am talking about having 4set bonus T6 and using the Ashtongue trinket.
So, my experience says that the 2-1 is good for BM hunters too, under the circumstances i have explained above.
To make it specific, in our raids we usually use 1 hunter and in his group there is a SP, so mana efficiency is not an issue. During the last months i am BM (i switch between BM and survival every few months, depending on needs) and i have been using the so called 2:1 rotation, although i don't like calling it 2:1.
It produced very good results for me, using DST and Ashtongue talisman of Swiftness. During being hasted, even by just IAotH, it was being transformed to a 1-1 rotation.
The "philosophy" behind this is obvious and simple. It's trying to be hasted as much possible (Drums, DST, e.t.c.) and utilize your steady shot as much possible (due to T6 4set bonus and due to increased trinkets procs). I want to keep my post short and to the point, so i'll not give lists of numbers, but just some general conclusions/remarks i noticed during testing (note that i am talking about a BM hunter with a 3.0 speed ranged weapon)
a. using the 2:1 you take better advantage of haste effects like (DST) procs
b. Ashtongue talisman procs a lot more
The difference is not huge, but it's good.
Note that i am not trying to prove anything, i am just giving my view and experience on something i am doing for some time now. You can try yourselves (if you have a SP in your party) and see if it works for you too. Of course take in mind that i am talking about having 4set bonus T6 and using the Ashtongue trinket.
So, my experience says that the 2-1 is good for BM hunters too, under the circumstances i have explained above.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
@Kurkis and others:
Of course if you have a dedicated group with 3+ drums, DST, haste potions, etc., you are going to do more DPS. Being able to push your attack speed into 1:1 range is excellent. However, the Survival hunter's value to the raid is still EW, because a BM hunter with equivalent buffs will still outdamage you. Yes, Survival scales better with several stats, but the initial advantage of BM and excellent haste scaling still comes out on top.
Good BM Hunters (Glau is a good example) have no problem clearing 2k DPS without a DST, stacked-to-hell group, and haste potions. Here are some examples.
In our typical configurations we will have a shaman (resto) and occasionally a shadow priest or feral druid.
@2:1
I've tested this over several raids in 2.3.3. For a while I was about to get 2 Steadies and 1 Auto in 3.2 seconds. Spamming a macro would allow Steady to begin casting during the Auto Shot cast.
However, this behavior is incredibly latency-sensitive or has been hotfixed. More recently, macro spamming just results in chain steadies and no autos. I've experiement with various timings in 50ms increments and there is no universal solution - in one fight using spam I fired 42 Steadies and 8 Autos (bleh!).
So your only choice is to wait 0.5s for the Auto. Adding this pushback, you're getting 3 shots in 3.5 seconds at best. It's pretty much a wash with a 1:1.5, since 1:1.5 can fire 5 shots in 5 seconds when executed properly.
Of course if you have a dedicated group with 3+ drums, DST, haste potions, etc., you are going to do more DPS. Being able to push your attack speed into 1:1 range is excellent. However, the Survival hunter's value to the raid is still EW, because a BM hunter with equivalent buffs will still outdamage you. Yes, Survival scales better with several stats, but the initial advantage of BM and excellent haste scaling still comes out on top.
Good BM Hunters (Glau is a good example) have no problem clearing 2k DPS without a DST, stacked-to-hell group, and haste potions. Here are some examples.
In our typical configurations we will have a shaman (resto) and occasionally a shadow priest or feral druid.
@2:1
I've tested this over several raids in 2.3.3. For a while I was about to get 2 Steadies and 1 Auto in 3.2 seconds. Spamming a macro would allow Steady to begin casting during the Auto Shot cast.
However, this behavior is incredibly latency-sensitive or has been hotfixed. More recently, macro spamming just results in chain steadies and no autos. I've experiement with various timings in 50ms increments and there is no universal solution - in one fight using spam I fired 42 Steadies and 8 Autos (bleh!).
So your only choice is to wait 0.5s for the Auto. Adding this pushback, you're getting 3 shots in 3.5 seconds at best. It's pretty much a wash with a 1:1.5, since 1:1.5 can fire 5 shots in 5 seconds when executed properly.
Last edited by Trohck : 01/30/08 at 5:05 PM. Reason: typo
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Originally Posted by orsraunia
a. using the 2:1 you take better advantage of haste effects like (DST) procs
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Trohck
@Kurkis and others:
Of course if you have a dedicated group with 3+ drums, DST, haste potions, etc., you are going to do more DPS. Being able to push your attack speed into 1:1 range is excellent. However, the Survival hunter's value to the raid is still EW, because a BM hunter with equivalent buffs will still outdamage you. Yes, Survival scales better with several stats, but the initial advantage of BM and excellent haste scaling still comes out on top. Good BM Hunters (Glau is a good example) have no problem clearing 2k DPS without a DST, stacked-to-hell group, and haste potions. In our typical configurations we will have a shaman (resto) and occasionally a shadow priest or feral druid. @2:1 I've tested this over several raids in 2.3.3. For a while I was about to get 2 Steadies and 1 Auto in 3.2 seconds. Spamming a macro would allow Steady to begin casting during the Auto Shot cast. However, this behavior is incredibly latency-sensitive or has been hotfixed. More recently, macro spamming just results in chain steadies and no autos. I've experiement with various timings in 50ms increments and there is no universal solution - in one fight using spam I fired 42 Steadies and 8 Autos (bleh!). So your only choice is to wait 0.5s for the Auto. Adding this pushback, you're getting 3 shots in 3.5 seconds ta best. It's pretty much a wash with a 1:1.5, since 1:1.5 can fire 5 shots in 5 seconds when executed properly. |
EW (and sometimes improved hunters mark) is your main asset.
With our typical raid makeup Monco or Trohck by far has the highest overall damage contribution.
2 Rogues (both doing 2k+ dps)
1 Feral druid (1500+ dps)
1 DPS Warrior (1500+ dps)
1 Enhancement Shaman (1500+ dps)
3 Hunters
2 Prot warriors
1 Prot/Ret Shaman
His EW means 200 extra AP for everyone there (2800 total). That is a huge bump to our DPS as well as tank threat.
Last edited by Glaurong : 01/30/08 at 6:15 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Trohck
No - you'll be constrained by GCD and your haste procs will have no impact if you're firing 2 Steadies per 1 Auto.
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I am not sure, all i know is that i took a lot of Dr.Boom 2min logs (using DST on half of them and not using it on other half). From these 2mins i was keeping 1,5min of log file, making sure that if DST had proced during the end of the first 1,5min of the test, to include all the time that proc lasted. I did this, so as not to appear that i had X number of DST procs in the log and a portion of the last proc's time to be left out.
This "small scale experiment" revealed to me that in 1,5min and with the same amount of DST procs, the 2:1 rotation was producing more shots than the 1:1 rotation and additionally, with the 2:1 rotation, each DST proc was producing more extra shots.
With the 1:1 rotation the gain was 1xsteady and 1x auto (=2 shots) and with the 2:1 rotation the gain was 4x autos (=4 shots). (By "gain" i mean the difference between using DST and not using it)
Comparing the shots the 2 rotations could produce (using DST) i got the following numbers: in 1,5min using the 1:1 and getting 3x DST procs my steady-auto ratio was 43-43=86 shots ( or 0,95 shots/sec). While with the 2:1 and 3x DST procs i had 58-36=94 shots (or 1,04 shots/sec). By the way, 58-36 is not 2:1 and this is why i said in my previous post that i don't like the term "2:1" for this style of shots, as it's not really a strict rotation.
Maybe we miss something about our mechanics at the moment, so we can't explain why i got that results in my tests, or maybe my data got somehow corrupted or i did some random error and the numbers i present are not correct. My opinion is to respect the things about our mechanics that we already know, but still also test in practice.
I am not interested to go back and test again, because i'd use this free style abuse of steady anyway, due to steady's superior damage (due to the T6 4pc bonus) and the increased proc chance of the Ashtongue talisman. So, if anyone is interested to support my numbers (by his own tests) or prove them wrong, you know where the Doctor is. I'd be interested to know.
Last edited by orsraunia : 01/30/08 at 5:25 PM. Reason: grammar
A 1.5 minute test for the DST isn't nearly long enough. You need a test with thousands of shots.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
Yes, I use this macro for my 2:1 rotation and what I have tried to explain to you in a post is that it doesn't matter. Right now if you use #showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() You can get 2 Steady Shots and it pushes your Auto shot back by .5 seconds. Using just the Steady Shot button right out of your spellbook you get the same results. |
I tried it tonight and I could do the 2:1 with 0,6-0,8sec clipping (bigtrouble), but if I just spammed it I was chaining Steady Shots over 5 seconds sometimes. To me this macro doesn't seem to add anything over just /cast Steady Shot.
@orsraunia
What was speed of weapon you used for test ?
@Soulcow
Macro is different from plain steady. When I did used plain steady I got just long string of steadies sometimes up to 6 in row without autos. Macro produce 2:1 much more consistently, though I can get 3:1 too. To do 2:1 consistently make small 0.2 sec pause after every second steady, but hit macro again when auto is still not completed to start next cycle as early as possible.
This behaviour can change any time, but for 2:1 use macro instead of plain steady from book.
I am still using 1:1.5 as it gives better results for me.
What was speed of weapon you used for test ?
@Soulcow
Macro is different from plain steady. When I did used plain steady I got just long string of steadies sometimes up to 6 in row without autos. Macro produce 2:1 much more consistently, though I can get 3:1 too. To do 2:1 consistently make small 0.2 sec pause after every second steady, but hit macro again when auto is still not completed to start next cycle as early as possible.
This behaviour can change any time, but for 2:1 use macro instead of plain steady from book.
I am still using 1:1.5 as it gives better results for me.
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Originally Posted by Glaurong
Trohck is exactly right. You shouldn't be trying to compete directly with a BM hunter, we will smoke you while giving ourselves carpel tunnel.
EW (and sometimes improved hunters mark) is your main asset. With our typical raid makeup Monco or Trohck by far has the highest overall damage contribution. 2 Rogues (both doing 2k+ dps) 1 Feral druid (1500+ dps) 1 DPS Warrior (1500+ dps) 1 Enhancement Shaman (1500+ dps) 3 Hunters 2 Prot warriors 1 Prot/Ret Shaman His EW means 200 extra AP for everyone there (2800 total). That is a huge bump to our DPS as well as tank threat. |
"I have 1228agi raid buffed you crazy guy! 300+ AP for all!!!!!!!"
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Originally Posted by five
Please let me know what you think about my gear, my spec, and my macros...THANKS
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[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (badge reward)
[Shard-bound Bracers] (Ogri'la rep reward)
And, although it's expensive and probably won't be available from your guild for awhile:
[Belt of Deep Shadow] (Nether Vortex craftable BoE)
I stopped using macros after 2.2. They became increasingly unreliable. I've been tempted to try the 2:1 trick, but I suspect I don't have the gear and groups for that. I don't actively raid anymore, so take this with a grain of salt.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Hunterlin
@orsraunia
What was speed of weapon you used for test ? |
The weapon speed was 3.0. Before people jump to conclusions, the following is a part of a recent post of mine
"Depending on gear and raid setup, each one of us can test and see what works best for him. I mention this, because most of the people that get involved in such discussions (which rotation is better) support one or another view, having in mind their gear and their guild's usual raid setup."
I am not saying what i do is the best thing and all should do the same, i am saying that i work with what i have for the best result possible and all this, in my humble opinion.
What i have at the moment is a 3.0 speed weapon and a SP in my group, so i try to make the best out of this by
using DST, Ashtongue talisman and the steady shot abuse, that people mention as a 2:1 rotation. But it's not a rotation and it produces an about 1,6:1 ratio (this ratio varies).
Last edited by orsraunia : 01/31/08 at 4:28 AM. Reason: grammar
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Very interesting discussion. Right now, our guild progressing in ssc, hydros and lurker down, we are going fot the other bosses. Moro hopefully down in the reset. I just providing this info, so others can see where we are. Beacuse i have not got T6 4/6, i use 1:1.5 rotation. In teh last 2 raids i tried 2 shot rotation.
1 (tk 3/4 farm) with the usual old /castsequence, and i have imp. arcane shot. I didn't got ench. shammy or feral druid.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot
the result was pretty bad: WWS
And i had that feeling Kurkis taled about. My dps is sucks, but hell what i buff the raid.
Yesterday Grull, hydross lurker, and moro tries:
After a research i was using macro on multi targets and bosses (in cc are, without multi-shot):
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
And the result way better:
WWS
Question: Shall i test 2:1 rotation in our raids or is absolutly worthless without T6?
Thanks,
H.
1 (tk 3/4 farm) with the usual old /castsequence, and i have imp. arcane shot. I didn't got ench. shammy or feral druid.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot
the result was pretty bad: WWS
And i had that feeling Kurkis taled about. My dps is sucks, but hell what i buff the raid.
Yesterday Grull, hydross lurker, and moro tries:
After a research i was using macro on multi targets and bosses (in cc are, without multi-shot):
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
And the result way better:
WWS
Question: Shall i test 2:1 rotation in our raids or is absolutly worthless without T6?
Thanks,
H.
Last edited by Horasz : 01/31/08 at 7:16 AM. Reason: typos
You can test the 2:1, you don't need T6 to get the mana efficiency out of the rotation, and it will still be within the ballpark of 1.5:1 damage wise. That said, Trohck and myself both have found that the macro that allowed for 2:1 appears to have been broken, with testing I was able to shoot 5-8 steadies before an auto would fire using mousewheel macro spam. I'm sure you could make it 2:1 by timing it manually and allowing the auto to fire, but that defeats the purpose of having a macro in the first place as you are bringing human reaction time back into the mix. For now we've both went back to 1.5:1 as it is just as serviceable as 2:1, we just have to keep a closer eye on the mana bar now.
Very interesting discussion, indeed.
I saw the 2.1 macro as well, i also only have 4/5 T4 pieces, i only wear 2, the helm and the legs.
The gloves i wear are from Gruul and the shoulders i wear are from KZ.
I tried the 2.1 macro and it worked for me.
It didnt seem to ever clip and or cause problems, i will keep on testing it and now i want to try yours out, thanks.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I just use this part:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Just add the other shots you need in manually for the fight,(Arcane Shot, Multi-shot) its also great when your low on Mana.
The gloves i wear are from Gruul and the shoulders i wear are from KZ.
I tried the 2.1 macro and it worked for me.
It didnt seem to ever clip and or cause problems, i will keep on testing it and now i want to try yours out, thanks.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I just use this part:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Just add the other shots you need in manually for the fight,(Arcane Shot, Multi-shot) its also great when your low on Mana.
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Originally Posted by Monco
You can test the 2:1, you don't need T6 to get the mana efficiency out of the rotation, and it will still be within the ballpark of 1.5:1 damage wise. That said, Trohck and myself both have found that the macro that allowed for 2:1 appears to have been broken, with testing I was able to shoot 5-8 steadies before an auto would fire using mousewheel macro spam. I'm sure you could make it 2:1 by timing it manually and allowing the auto to fire, but that defeats the purpose of having a macro in the first place as you are bringing human reaction time back into the mix. For now we've both went back to 1.5:1 as it is just as serviceable as 2:1, we just have to keep a closer eye on the mana bar now.
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But i'll try the 2:1 and report about the result.
Best regards,
H.
Very interesting discussion, indeed.
Well we went to Gruul's last night and i tried the 2 new macro's i got here.
The first macro was:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
the second macro was:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
The second macro did work for me, it seemed to clip some in Gruuls. I will stick with the first macro and manually weave: Arcane Shot, Multi-shot in as needed.
Thanks again, Have a GREAT WEEKEND.
The first macro was:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
the second macro was:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
The second macro did work for me, it seemed to clip some in Gruuls. I will stick with the first macro and manually weave: Arcane Shot, Multi-shot in as needed.
Thanks again, Have a GREAT WEEKEND.
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Originally Posted by Monco
You can test the 2:1, you don't need T6 to get the mana efficiency out of the rotation, and it will still be within the ballpark of 1.5:1 damage wise. That said, Trohck and myself both have found that the macro that allowed for 2:1 appears to have been broken, with testing I was able to shoot 5-8 steadies before an auto would fire using mousewheel macro spam. I'm sure you could make it 2:1 by timing it manually and allowing the auto to fire, but that defeats the purpose of having a macro in the first place as you are bringing human reaction time back into the mix. For now we've both went back to 1.5:1 as it is just as serviceable as 2:1, we just have to keep a closer eye on the mana bar now.
|
What is happening to the 2 : 1 Macro?
Just as we seamed to have got a perfect SV macro in the works it seams to have changed its mechanics somehow. Some random testing on Boom revealed some interesting bits and piesces.
Using just AotH as a buff, quartz and recount.
1) Just random buttton//key mashing produced missed autos and sometimes 3 SS in a row with no autos, as a couple of others have observed. 5 tests to OOM resulted in 75% SS to 25% AS (or 3 : 1) due to the "missed" autos
2) Concentrating button spam at the end of the SS cast however completely negated this quirk and I got back to a more or less expected 65% 35% SS AS with a DPS increase in the order of 150
Now the next observation could well be a godsend to all you Ausies Kiwis etc who consistently play at 300 ish latency. Whilst virus checker ran my latency dropped to +/- 300 and quartz duly showed me a dirty great portion of red as intended. What was very interesting is that I now didn't need to mash buttons at all, a simple click at any point along the last 1/3 of a SS cast ensured the next auto cast properly. DPS did drop a tad but hey should be good for latency players.
So to conclude using
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
should be a great boost to SV raiding, using 4 x T6 and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] is superb synergy to the 2 : 1 macro, if we could iron out the AS casting quirk...
Just as we seamed to have got a perfect SV macro in the works it seams to have changed its mechanics somehow. Some random testing on Boom revealed some interesting bits and piesces.
Using just AotH as a buff, quartz and recount.
1) Just random buttton//key mashing produced missed autos and sometimes 3 SS in a row with no autos, as a couple of others have observed. 5 tests to OOM resulted in 75% SS to 25% AS (or 3 : 1) due to the "missed" autos
2) Concentrating button spam at the end of the SS cast however completely negated this quirk and I got back to a more or less expected 65% 35% SS AS with a DPS increase in the order of 150
Now the next observation could well be a godsend to all you Ausies Kiwis etc who consistently play at 300 ish latency. Whilst virus checker ran my latency dropped to +/- 300 and quartz duly showed me a dirty great portion of red as intended. What was very interesting is that I now didn't need to mash buttons at all, a simple click at any point along the last 1/3 of a SS cast ensured the next auto cast properly. DPS did drop a tad but hey should be good for latency players.
So to conclude using
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
should be a great boost to SV raiding, using 4 x T6 and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] is superb synergy to the 2 : 1 macro, if we could iron out the AS casting quirk...
I noticed the /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot macro chaining steadys too. What has been working for me is the following:
/cast !auto shot
/castsequence steady shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Basically turning the second /cast into aa /castsequence of one thing. This has been working pretty much perfectly and does a better job of dropping itself down to 1:1 while I am hasted. It also works fine with a kill command on top of everything,
/cast !auto shot
/castsequence steady shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Basically turning the second /cast into aa /castsequence of one thing. This has been working pretty much perfectly and does a better job of dropping itself down to 1:1 while I am hasted. It also works fine with a kill command on top of everything,
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I am wondering about trinkets.
In my experience i have found that, Tsunami Talisman + Hourglass of the Unraveller, are by far the best combo.
I hear people talking about Bloodlust Broach, for me it seems quite clear why Hourglass is better.
Bloodlust = Passive AP + AP boost, once per 2 mins.
Hourglass = Passive crit + AP boost, once per min on average. ( 45 sec hidden CD and 10 sec duration) so often it is exactly once per min and sometimes it is once per 63 secs or so.
The same goes for Tsunami Talisman, but i don't think it is in question really.
Due to the high proc rate of both the Hourglass and Tsunami, they often proc at the same time. mmmmmmmm nice!
So i am wondering, is there something i am missing when thinking that Hourglass + Tsunami are the best combo?
Because to me it seems quite clear that 2 x trinkets with passive crit, that proc once per min (on average ), is better than 1 or 2 x trinkets that have passive AP and a 2 min CD.
Thank you in advance.
In my experience i have found that, Tsunami Talisman + Hourglass of the Unraveller, are by far the best combo.
I hear people talking about Bloodlust Broach, for me it seems quite clear why Hourglass is better.
Bloodlust = Passive AP + AP boost, once per 2 mins.
Hourglass = Passive crit + AP boost, once per min on average. ( 45 sec hidden CD and 10 sec duration) so often it is exactly once per min and sometimes it is once per 63 secs or so.
The same goes for Tsunami Talisman, but i don't think it is in question really.
Due to the high proc rate of both the Hourglass and Tsunami, they often proc at the same time. mmmmmmmm nice!
So i am wondering, is there something i am missing when thinking that Hourglass + Tsunami are the best combo?
Because to me it seems quite clear that 2 x trinkets with passive crit, that proc once per min (on average ), is better than 1 or 2 x trinkets that have passive AP and a 2 min CD.
Thank you in advance.
Last edited by nosleep : 02/03/08 at 4:43 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by nosleep
I am wondering about trinkets.
In my experience i have found that, Tsunami Talisman + Hourglass of the Unraveller, are by far the best combo. I hear people talking about Bloodlust Broach, for me it seems quite clear why Hourglass is better. |
Also, you should consider other possibly beneficial trinkets, such as [Madness of the Betrayer] with its passive AP and HR and armor ignoring proc, [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] with its AP proc off of Steady Shot if you have a high SS rotation, [Dragonspine Trophy] with its passive AP and haste proc, and [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] with its stacking AP proc, among others.
Now with just looking at the trinkets in your question and to attempt to provide a direct comparison amongst them, it may be true that the crit trinkets proc about 1 per min while the AP trinket is usable every 2 mins, but that does not mean that the crit trinkets are twice as good. They only have a 10s duration, while the AP trinket’s duration is 20s. Thus, with assuming using the AP trinket every time it is available, the duration of the crit trinket is roughly that of the AP trinket. Thus, we can roughly compare the actual proc benefits:
[Bloodlust Brooch]: 278 AP
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]: 300 AP
[Tsunami Talisman]: 340 AP
[Berserker's Call]: 360 AP
As can be seen, [Bloodlust Brooch] does provide less AP proc than the 2 crit trinkets, but that is only part of the story. The other part is the passive benefits. As a rough rule of thumb for simple comparison (of course, we all know it's more complicated than this), 40 AP = 1% crit. Thus, the passive 72 AP from [Bloodlust Brooch] is roughly equal to 1.80% crit, which is greater than the 1.45% crit from [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and 1.72% crit from [Tsunami Talisman]. This benefit in passive stats [Bloodlust Brooch] helps to make up, and in some cases overcome, the proc benefits of the crit trinkets. Furthermore, not only does [Berserker's Call] have a “better” AP proc, its passive 90 AP, which is roughly equivalent to 2.25% crit, is by far the best trinket of the 4. Below, I convert the benefits of the trinkets into total AP benefit per second as a basis of comparison to show the personal DPS benefit of each.
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]: 300 AP/6 + 1.45*40 = 108.00 AP
[Bloodlust Brooch]: 278 AP/6 + 72 = 118.33 AP
[Tsunami Talisman]: 340 AP/6 + 1.72*40 = 125.47 AP
[Berserker's Call]: 360 AP/6 + 90 = 150.00 AP
As an example using my hunter with his current armory and typical raid buffs, as expected from the above table, the 2 crit trinkets together perform a little worse than the [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman]. The latter combination results in +4.53 personal DPS with a -0.39 AP for average EW proc (due to the loss in crit). Since there cannot be 39 (4.53/(0.39*0.3)) other physical in a 25-man raid, the latter combination provides overall better raid DPS. Now of course, this assumes that I am using [Bloodlust Brooch] everytime it is available. If I am not, then the former combination may prevail. Personally, until I can get some of the better proc trinkets, I prefer one use trinket to control when I get the AP boost. I pull a lot, and it is nice to have the AP boost to improve the benefits of MD, and I also like to use the trinket when doing a Rapid Fire when both are available.
For completeness though, note that for a Survival hunter’s overall DPS contribution to the raid, that using the 2 AP trinkets is not better than using the [Tsunami Talisman] and [Berserker's Call]. As the table above implies, the 2 AP trinkets should not generally provide better personal DPS, but due to my gear and spec, they do provide slightly better DPS (about 0.29); however, the loss in crit results in –0.56 AP on EW proc. Thus, as long as there are at least 2 (0.29/(0.56+.3)) other physical DPS in the raid, the [Tsunami Talisman] and [Berserker's Call] combination is better.
I had planned to also do the comparison on your gear and spec with assuming certain raid buffs, but the armory went down after I had only looked at a few of your items. Since you are also 0/20/41 specced, I assume that we have pretty similar talents, and although you are a little further along than me in gear, I would expect that the results I see with my character will roughly hold for yours as well.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/03/08 at 3:23 PM. Reason: Fixed mispelling in Berserker's Call
Weapon Speed for 2:1
I'm no expert theorycrafter, but in light of this 2:1 rotation that I've been reading about here, I have a question:
Does this mean that there is a different optimal bow/gun speed for hunters using this 2:1 rotation? Kurkis, I know you mentioned using many consumables to hasten your speed down to a 1:1 rotation, but do you plan your weapon speed around this, or is it just a complete non-factor for you?
We only regularly raid with 1 shaman in our guild, who is usually put in the caster DPS group, and with a shortage of leatherworkers on my server (I'm thinking about dropping a profession to pick it up) and bad luck with trinket drops, I find myself limited right now on haste options.
Therefore, for hunters like me who have to give increased weight to the unhastened part of each fight, should I try to get a slow weapon to get as close as possible to a pure 2:1 rotation without clipping, should I shoot for a 1:1 rotation, or does it not matter much at all in the long run?
Our raid leader and main tank has had computer problems lately, so I will probably be in my PVP spec/gear for much of this week, but for reference, I'm specced 0/20/41 with a mix of SSC/TK/Kara gear.
Does this mean that there is a different optimal bow/gun speed for hunters using this 2:1 rotation? Kurkis, I know you mentioned using many consumables to hasten your speed down to a 1:1 rotation, but do you plan your weapon speed around this, or is it just a complete non-factor for you?
We only regularly raid with 1 shaman in our guild, who is usually put in the caster DPS group, and with a shortage of leatherworkers on my server (I'm thinking about dropping a profession to pick it up) and bad luck with trinket drops, I find myself limited right now on haste options.
Therefore, for hunters like me who have to give increased weight to the unhastened part of each fight, should I try to get a slow weapon to get as close as possible to a pure 2:1 rotation without clipping, should I shoot for a 1:1 rotation, or does it not matter much at all in the long run?
Our raid leader and main tank has had computer problems lately, so I will probably be in my PVP spec/gear for much of this week, but for reference, I'm specced 0/20/41 with a mix of SSC/TK/Kara gear.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Tiberium
What is happening to the 2 : 1 Macro?
Just as we seamed to have got a perfect SV macro in the works it seams to have changed its mechanics somehow. Some random testing on Boom revealed some interesting bits and piesces. Using just AotH as a buff, quartz and recount. 1) Just random buttton//key mashing produced missed autos and sometimes 3 SS in a row with no autos, as a couple of others have observed. 5 tests to OOM resulted in 75% SS to 25% AS (or 3 : 1) due to the "missed" autos 2) Concentrating button spam at the end of the SS cast however completely negated this quirk and I got back to a more or less expected 65% 35% SS AS with a DPS increase in the order of 150 |
On topic;
After being a macro-spammer until around the time of our first Illidan kill (early December), I've been practicing my timing for near-perfect 1.5:1 rotations, so I've not experimented with the 2:1 cycle. If the macro is prone to chaining steadies, is it really worth working on adjusting to a manual 2:1 (baring in mind that Illidan hates me and has yet to give up my chest for 4piece t6), or rather to keep to maintaining the 1.5:1 until the bugs and inconsistencies in /cast !Autoshot are ironed out?
Edit:
Ok, this has been piquing my interest for a while, so finally some tests were called for. I tried the macro posted earlier on this page:
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
/cast !auto shot
/castsequence steady shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
Basic conclusions? I need 4piece T6 ASAP (got the DKP for a guaranteed win on the next drop, though). With that, 2:1 will be interesting to try, and will let me use Hawk for much longer with my usual mana regen and potting setups. I'm not convinced that that +10% steady shot damage will increase my DPS to outmatch my 1.5:1 cycle. If I get a 10% boost going manual over a macro, then the set bonus boosts my 2:1 rotations DPS by 6.66%. But in turn, it boosts my manual cycle's DPS, so it's not quite making up the damage numbers in my mind. Still, going to be interesting to try it when we're back in BT this week. At the very least, the chance to spend more time with Hawk could boost my DPS above manual timing, if 1.5:1 forces me into Viper. I'll come back with some observations.
Last edited by Varelse : 02/04/08 at 6:12 AM.
Has anyone looked at the benefits of EW with GoA compared to Windfury for fury warriors?
Typically my guild runs with a melee specific group. The makeup is typically Enhance, Feral, Rogue, Rogue, Fury with shaman's rotated in for Bloodlusts. Unfortunately that's our only group that has a chance at getting GoA and if we have another feral it's typically in the Tank group as an OT. Thus I usually end up in a group with all casters and have little to no group synergy.
I've spec'd surv for raid benefits and I'm just trying to allay my suspicions that the raid is losing dps by me not having GOA and/or a Feral druid.
My Armory probably isnt showign my dps gear as I typically wear my ghetto pvp/farming gear most of the time. (Note: Yes I know real PvP gear is easy to get but RL interferes with gaming time that I could use for getting it.) So here's a quick run down of my current raiding set:
[Legacy] [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] [Saberclaw Talisman]
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury] [Blood Knight War Cloak] [Ranger-General's Chestguard]
[Bands of the Celestial Archer] [Rift Stalker Gauntlets] [Belt of the Black Eagle]
[Void Reaver Greaves] [Cobra-Lash Boots] [Ring of the Recalcitrant]
[Ring of Lethality] [Bloodlust Brooch] [Tsunami Talisman]
[Serpent Spine Longbow] [Quiver of a Thousand Feathers] [Mysterious Arrow]
Raid buffed without GoA/LotP I'm at 959 agility with 40.32% crit with 96.22% EW uptime. With GoA/LotP it's 1056 and 47.73% crit with 98.37% EW uptime.
Typically my guild runs with a melee specific group. The makeup is typically Enhance, Feral, Rogue, Rogue, Fury with shaman's rotated in for Bloodlusts. Unfortunately that's our only group that has a chance at getting GoA and if we have another feral it's typically in the Tank group as an OT. Thus I usually end up in a group with all casters and have little to no group synergy.
I've spec'd surv for raid benefits and I'm just trying to allay my suspicions that the raid is losing dps by me not having GOA and/or a Feral druid.
My Armory probably isnt showign my dps gear as I typically wear my ghetto pvp/farming gear most of the time. (Note: Yes I know real PvP gear is easy to get but RL interferes with gaming time that I could use for getting it.) So here's a quick run down of my current raiding set:
[Legacy] [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] [Saberclaw Talisman]
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury] [Blood Knight War Cloak] [Ranger-General's Chestguard]
[Bands of the Celestial Archer] [Rift Stalker Gauntlets] [Belt of the Black Eagle]
[Void Reaver Greaves] [Cobra-Lash Boots] [Ring of the Recalcitrant]
[Ring of Lethality] [Bloodlust Brooch] [Tsunami Talisman]
[Serpent Spine Longbow] [Quiver of a Thousand Feathers] [Mysterious Arrow]
Raid buffed without GoA/LotP I'm at 959 agility with 40.32% crit with 96.22% EW uptime. With GoA/LotP it's 1056 and 47.73% crit with 98.37% EW uptime.
Feral druid isn't going to make much difference for you since your uptime is already so high. If you look at the difference in AGI you're talking about adding 25ap to the melee group (and adding to your own DPS), which is miniscule compared to Windfury. With the uptime increase you're talking maybe 30ap benefit overall.
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Originally Posted by Grondarg
Has anyone looked at the benefits of EW with GoA compared to Windfury for fury warriors?
Typically my guild runs with a melee specific group. The makeup is typically Enhance, Feral, Rogue, Rogue, Fury with shaman's rotated in for Bloodlusts. Unfortunately that's our only group that has a chance at getting GoA and if we have another feral it's typically in the Tank group as an OT. Thus I usually end up in a group with all casters and have little to no group synergy. Raid buffed without GoA/LotP I'm at 959 agility with 40.32% crit with 96.22% EW uptime. With GoA/LotP it's 1056 and 47.73% crit with 98.37% EW uptime. |
My guild has not killed Kael yet. Without both LotP and shaman totems, my calculated DPS is 1188.75, with 1042 agi, 44.33% crit, 97.95% EW uptime, and 255.25 average EW proc.
As Trohck stated, LotP does not help our EW too much at our high crit levels if we have 3/3 ranks in EW. However, it does have a noticeable impact on our personal DPS since both the hunter and the pet receives the buff. With LotP, my hunter has 1243.14 DPS (+54.39), same agi, 49.31% crit (+4.98), 98.90% EW uptime (+0.95%), and 257.72 average EW proc (+2.47 AP). Assuming 8 other physical in the raid including pets, my overall raid DPS contribution improvement with getting LotP is 60.32 DPS (54.39 + (2.47*0.3*8) ) but only 5.93 DPS is from my EW contribution to other raid members. So if it is just a matter of whether I get LotP or the melee groups gets the buff from the fury warrior and the fury warrior gets LotP, it is probably better for the raid for the fury warrior to be in that group.
Now a shaman may be a different matter, and this is not only due to GoA. GoA is the most important buff a survival hunter gets from a shaman, but we also get mana spring to help with managing our mana pool and keeping up our max rotations and both GoA and SoE to our pet to improve its performance as well. With being in the same group as our enhancement shaman with his improved totems, my hunter has 1268.69 DPS (+79.94), 1154 agi (+112), 47.11% crit (+2.78%), 98.54% EW uptime (+0.59%), and 284.21 average EW proc (+28.96 AP). Assuming 8 other physical in the raid including pets, my overall raid DPS contribution improvement with getting the totems is 149.44 DPS (79.94+ (28.96*0.3*8) ) with 69.5 DPS being from my EW contribution to other raid members. This is a very significant improvement to raid DPS, which I would think would be difficult to surmount with the fury warrior's benefit to that group, but as I said, I do not know for sure. Note though that the DPS numbers did not account for the possible DPS benefits from mana spring that could prevent or reduce having to use AoV or drop down to a mana conserving rotation so that I can keep up my personal DPS and EW benefits better.
Getting both the shaman totems and LotP, my hunter has 1325.10 DPS (+136.35), 1154 agi (+112), 52.09% crit (+7.76%), 99.24% EW uptime (+1.29%), and 286.24 average EW proc (+30.99 AP). Assuming 8 other physical in the raid including pets, my overall raid DPS contribution improvement with getting the totems is 210.73 DPS (136.35 + (30.99*0.3*8) ) with 74.38 DPS being from my EW contribution to other raid members. This is a significant increase.
Also note that with gear improvements that the DPS differences between having the buffs or not will become greater. The EW benefits will mostly stay the same, but the personal DPS gains should increase as each shot does more damage.
Can anyone quantify the benefit of having the fury warrior in these groups instead?
Sorry if i ask again, but im confused right now. Iam SV Hunter since 2-3 Month. At last time i spend much more time to increase my damage output. I use all haste procs (DST & Bloodlust, IAotH, Rapid Fire) i can get, and so i keep my dmg up.
At the Moment i use the following macro for a 2:1 shot rotation
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command!
/castsequence Steady Shot
/cast Rapid Fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
And I asked myself, is that a good beginning?!
Skilltree
Armory
At the Moment i use the following macro for a 2:1 shot rotation
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command!
/castsequence Steady Shot
/cast Rapid Fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
And I asked myself, is that a good beginning?!
Skilltree
Armory
|
Originally Posted by Female Tauren
What does the ! behind kill command do?
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]: 300 AP/6 + 1.45*40 = 108.00 AP
[Bloodlust Brooch]: 278 AP/6 + 72 = 118.33 AP [Tsunami Talisman]: 340 AP/6 + 1.72*40 = 125.47 AP [Berserker's Call]: 360 AP/6 + 90 = 150.00 AP As an example using my hunter with his current armory and typical raid buffs, as expected from the above table, the 2 crit trinkets together perform a little worse than the [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman]. The latter combination results in +4.53 personal DPS with a -0.39 AP for average EW proc (due to the loss in crit). Since there cannot be 39 (4.53/(0.39*0.3)) other physical in a 25-man raid, the latter combination provides overall better raid DPS. Now of course, this assumes that I am using [Bloodlust Brooch] everytime it is available. If I am not, then the former combination may prevail. Personally, until I can get some of the better proc trinkets, I prefer one use trinket to control when I get the AP boost. I pull a lot, and it is nice to have the AP boost to improve the benefits of MD, and I also like to use the trinket when doing a Rapid Fire when both are available. |
They actually perform worse than you think. Hourglass and Tsunami share the same hidden cooldown of 45s. If one procs, it resets the cooldown of both, they are not independent. It is possible to proc them both at the same time but that is a very low percentage of the time. With that information you basically get 1.45*40 = 58 AP for Hourglass in best case scenario every time (the procs compete so sometimes you'd be getting the lower AP proc), which won't be the case. I'd highly recommend not using them at the same time, you would be better off using Tsunami Talisman and the BG crit trinket since all you are really doing at that point is stacking a little more crit.
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Originally Posted by Monco
They actually perform worse than you think. Hourglass and Tsunami share the same hidden cooldown of 45s. If one procs, it resets the cooldown of both, they are not independent. It is possible to proc them both at the same time but that is a very low percentage of the time. With that information you basically get 1.45*40 = 58 AP for Hourglass in best case scenario every time (the procs compete so sometimes you'd be getting the lower AP proc), which won't be the case. I'd highly recommend not using them at the same time, you would be better off using Tsunami Talisman and the BG crit trinket since all you are really doing at that point is stacking a little more crit.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
This is not correct. They do not share cooldowns at all. I have both trinkets, and have had them proc at the same time. Which is enough proof that they do not share cooldowns.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Helps if I read and comprehend. Thanks for the correction.
Last edited by Namarus : 02/06/08 at 1:40 AM.
Hi Kurkis
just for clarification some questions:
by new steadyshot macro do you mean a
?
and since i dont like manual weaving (been doing it for years ) and prefer using my g15 macro repeat keys nowadays
would a weaving macro be
would those work for you?
cheers
Sun
just for clarification some questions:
| I'm 0/20/41 - I use the new Steady Shot rotation of 2:1 in a non-hasted state (and I will thread in arcane/multis when I can while in a non-hasted state) and I let the rotation macro drop me to 1:1 when it allows me to do so. |
by new steadyshot macro do you mean a
#showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and since i dont like manual weaving (been doing it for years ) and prefer using my g15 macro repeat keys nowadays
would a weaving macro be
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
cheers
Sun
last night I tried using a 2:1 rotation
Wow Web Stats
I have 4pc t6 bonus as well as Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness. My spec is also 0/20/41
I used this macro
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
I found that I really had to watch and make sure I did not do 3 steady shots in a row with this macro.
If you browse through my combat log you can see that I did clip a few autos in this way. So there is
potential to improve on my rotation.
Mana efficiency = Excellent!
I'm unsure if there is a substantial dps increase. I compared this kill to some of our previous kills and I was hitting a lot harder (even though my gear has not changed) so there must be more raid buffs than previously.
This certainly proves that SV hunters are more than just a "raid buff" though.
Wow Web Stats
I have 4pc t6 bonus as well as Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness. My spec is also 0/20/41
I used this macro
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
I found that I really had to watch and make sure I did not do 3 steady shots in a row with this macro.
If you browse through my combat log you can see that I did clip a few autos in this way. So there is
potential to improve on my rotation.
Mana efficiency = Excellent!
I'm unsure if there is a substantial dps increase. I compared this kill to some of our previous kills and I was hitting a lot harder (even though my gear has not changed) so there must be more raid buffs than previously.
This certainly proves that SV hunters are more than just a "raid buff" though.
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Originally Posted by Threepi
That was the point he tried to make. If they share cooldowns, they can proc at the same time, but if one procs, the other can't for the next 45 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
I'm pretty sure this was proven to be wrong. A few months ago someone posted a screen shot of both trinkets active with different durations of the buff remaining.
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Originally Posted by Escort
I'm 99% sure that you're right about that Cheeky.
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I'm still very skeptical over this whole two steady shots, followed by one auto shot rotation. Is there any math behind why your seeing an increase in dps? Does this only work if you have 4 pieces of Tier 6?
Is the mana consumption more or less than a more traditional rotation?
Is the mana consumption more or less than a more traditional rotation?
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Here is the original post. The picture shows a 3 second difference in durations remaining, which couldn't be accounted for even by latency.
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So, I can't remember where I found it, but there was a post explaining why more than one point in Trap Mastery is useless. I don't have the talent, and have no intention of getting it, but I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a quick explanation, or a link to the post...
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
I'm still very skeptical over this whole two steady shots, followed by one auto shot rotation. Is there any math behind why your seeing an increase in dps? Does this only work if you have 4 pieces of Tier 6?
Is the mana consumption more or less than a more traditional rotation? |
For DPS, it increases because total shots fired goes up. This is especially true once haste comes into play. Your number of special shots will approach the theeoretical max and your auto shot will no olonger be capped by the GCD which it effectively is when you weave shouts bound to the GCD between autos.
I put up a spreadsheet several pages back that showed this data here
Look at the total specials vvs max specials and compare total shots fired. That was done as MM but you get the same relaative results as SV. On dr boom doing 2:1 with haste proccing here and there (and rapid fire) I go exactly 120 seconds on a full bar of mana with no extra regen.
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Originally Posted by Mercy XXVI
So, I can't remember where I found it, but there was a post explaining why more than one point in Trap Mastery is useless. I don't have the talent, and have no intention of getting it, but I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a quick explanation, or a link to the post...
Thanks in advance. |
@ Mercy XXVI
Taken from Lactose's Hunter Thread
Trap mastery
Equal level: 4% chance to resist.
+1 level: 5% chance to resist.
+2 levels: 6% chance to resist.
+3 levels: [Mob] 17% chance to resist / [Player] 13% chance to resist.
Traps always have 1% to be resisted, regardless of your hit chance.
Resist checks happen both on initial application and on heartbeat ticks.
What this means in terms of talent point allocation:
Unless you're trying to trap something that's 3+ levels above you, 2 points in Trap Mastery is useless. Even against a target 2 levels above you, adding a second point does not provide any boost in trap success rate or longevity
Taken from Lactose's Hunter Thread
Trap mastery
Equal level: 4% chance to resist.
+1 level: 5% chance to resist.
+2 levels: 6% chance to resist.
+3 levels: [Mob] 17% chance to resist / [Player] 13% chance to resist.
Traps always have 1% to be resisted, regardless of your hit chance.
Resist checks happen both on initial application and on heartbeat ticks.
What this means in terms of talent point allocation:
Unless you're trying to trap something that's 3+ levels above you, 2 points in Trap Mastery is useless. Even against a target 2 levels above you, adding a second point does not provide any boost in trap success rate or longevity
Adding to that, there are no level 73 mobs currently in the game that you can trap.
What about bosses, and Immo/Explosive trap? Or are those based off of something else?
Also, thanks for the quick responses.
Also, thanks for the quick responses.
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Originally Posted by Threepi
That was the point he tried to make. If they share cooldowns, they can proc at the same time, but if one procs, the other can't for the next 45 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Mercy XXVI
What about bosses, and Immo/Explosive trap? Or are those based off of something else?
Also, thanks for the quick responses. |
Dont think it applies but even if it did would you spend a whole talent point to pop a boss with your leet explosive trap? The adds on fights arent level 73 elites.
Gentlemen,
I stepped aside from Wow for 3 monthes and as I'm coming back, my guild farming H/BT, I feel disoriented with the new mechanics. I've read with pleasure the latest pages of this thread and am wondering how this theorycraft can be of any use for me.
I am a survival hunter, used to perform a 1:1.15 rotation, using for that the pre2.3 macro. I manualy wave in AS and MS. My pet is a ravager, as I found difficult to handle the "move-in move-out" movement of a windserpent casting Lightning breath. My gear is well balanced, with 4/5 T5, and offering me almost 8K mana.
My weapon is Legionkiller.
All of this can be reviewed on the armory (The World of Warcraft Armory), but I sum it up here for ease.
My latency is 200ms.
My current build is not meant for raiding and it will be modified in 0/20/41 in the next days.
I've got several questions in order to optimize my dps :
1. Haste
My raid will in no occasion provide me with haste effect other than an accidental Bloodlust. I am leatherworker and can use Drums of battle (and would be the only one in my raid).
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
3. Rotation 1:1.15
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
4. Weapon and speed
What pet would be the best dps oriented choice for me ?
6. Trinkets
I don't have DST. I currently raid with Tsunami Talisman and Bloodlust Brooch. Would it be wise to replace the BB by the Hourglass of the Unraveler, as it has been recently stated it didn't share its cooldown with the Tsunami Talisman ?
7. Stats
What change would you make ? What piece of gear would you replace absolutely ?
I thank you in advance for your answers, as they will be really valuable to me.
I stepped aside from Wow for 3 monthes and as I'm coming back, my guild farming H/BT, I feel disoriented with the new mechanics. I've read with pleasure the latest pages of this thread and am wondering how this theorycraft can be of any use for me.
I am a survival hunter, used to perform a 1:1.15 rotation, using for that the pre2.3 macro. I manualy wave in AS and MS. My pet is a ravager, as I found difficult to handle the "move-in move-out" movement of a windserpent casting Lightning breath. My gear is well balanced, with 4/5 T5, and offering me almost 8K mana.
My weapon is Legionkiller.
All of this can be reviewed on the armory (The World of Warcraft Armory), but I sum it up here for ease.
My latency is 200ms.
My current build is not meant for raiding and it will be modified in 0/20/41 in the next days.
I've got several questions in order to optimize my dps :
1. Haste
My raid will in no occasion provide me with haste effect other than an accidental Bloodlust. I am leatherworker and can use Drums of battle (and would be the only one in my raid).
1.a So is it interesting for me, considering my current gear, to try to stick to a 1:1 rotation ?2. Rotation 2.1
1.b Should I try to get more haste rating on my gear ?
2.a Would a 2:1 rotation be useful, considering my 4/5 T5 bonus (pro) and my latency of 200ms (con) ?#showtooltip Steady Shot
2.b If so, is this macro the one to spam ?
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
3. Rotation 1:1.15
3.a What is the best 1:1.15 macro now (considering I will manualy wave in multi and AS) ?#showtooltip Steady Shot
3.b Is this one accurate ?
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
3.c In what kind of occasion a 1:1.15 rotation would be of better use than a 2:1 rotation ?
4. Weapon and speed
4.a Is my weapon speed important ?5. Pet
4.b Should I try to get the Illidan or Archimonde Bow ?
What pet would be the best dps oriented choice for me ?
6. Trinkets
I don't have DST. I currently raid with Tsunami Talisman and Bloodlust Brooch. Would it be wise to replace the BB by the Hourglass of the Unraveler, as it has been recently stated it didn't share its cooldown with the Tsunami Talisman ?
7. Stats
7.a How to rate Armor penetration in comparison for standard stats as ap, crit, hr, haste ? is it worthwhile ?8. Gear
7.b Is there a cap in crit rating that is silly to go over ?
What change would you make ? What piece of gear would you replace absolutely ?
I thank you in advance for your answers, as they will be really valuable to me.
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Originally Posted by Sennak
Gentlemen,
I stepped aside from Wow for 3 monthes |
Rotation - As far as rotation goes, you are going to have to test which does better for you, a 2:1 or 1:1.5. I've said many times that there is no good way to macro a 1:1.5, I use a cast sequence steady shot macro and manually weave in arcane/multi.
Weapon speed - is important, you will want a 3.0 speed weapon. The Archi Bow is ideal but the Vashj bow or S3 bow are also upgrades over Legionkiller. 3.0 speed allows you to perform 1:1.5 (or 2:1 i guess?) with less clipping.
Pet - Get a Windserpent and macro lightning breath to steady shot, arcane shot, and multi shot rather than having it auto cast.
Trinkets - Keep using BB & TT... BB is a much better trinket than the hourglass. Upgrades are - Berserker's Call from ZA and/or Madness of the Betrayer from BT.
Stats - You'll want to download cheeky's spreadsheet. You can plug in your gear/rotation/spec and see your estimated dps. Then you can plug in upgrades to see what will benefit you. You'll find it the Hunter Spreadsheets thread. Armor penetration is a very nice stat!
Gear - You are over the hit cap by a decent amount, you can afford to drop some hit rating (only need 96) (might want to replace your cloak with the one off Kael). Other than that you will definitely want to replace your bracers, haste rating on gear will result in a net loss of dps. Your weapons are nice but replace them with the ZA daggers if you can. Replace that +5 crit +7 stam gem in your boot with +5 agility +7 stam. Neck can also be replaced with the one off Kael.
Spec - 0/20/41 is superior than 0/24/37 plus you'll get the benefit of readiness which provides some amazing utility in raids.
Please feel free to add anything I missed!
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
First, obviously mana consumption is less than other typical rotations. Steady shot costs substantially less mana than any other shot you have (except auto). You are replacing an arcane shot and a multi-shot every 10ish seconds with steady shots so mana consumption goes way down.
For DPS, it increases because total shots fired goes up. This is especially true once haste comes into play. Your number of special shots will approach the theeoretical max and your auto shot will no olonger be capped by the GCD which it effectively is when you weave shouts bound to the GCD between autos. I put up a spreadsheet several pages back that showed this data here Look at the total specials vvs max specials and compare total shots fired. That was done as MM but you get the same relaative results as SV. On dr boom doing 2:1 with haste proccing here and there (and rapid fire) I go exactly 120 seconds on a full bar of mana with no extra regen. |
Well I tried it out, and noticed a considerable increase in dps compared to using 1:1.5. Like other people, however, I did notice times when the macro would essentially get stuck, and continuously steady shot for 3-4 shots before reverting back to an autoshot.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
Well I tried it out, and noticed a considerable increase in dps compared to using 1:1.5. Like other people, however, I did notice times when the macro would essentially get stuck, and continuously steady shot for 3-4 shots before reverting back to an autoshot.
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Regarding the new 2:3 rotation (and to Sennak as this will answer some of your questions):
In an unhasted ideal situation (i.e. standing there shooting), you'll do the best dps with a 1:1.5 rotation.
1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot = 1862 DPS
1:2 = 1467 DPS
2:3 = 1487 DPS
1:1 = 1519 DPS
The DPS of a standard 1:1.5 rotation is approximately equivalent to that of a 1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation, as has been discussed previously in this thread.
----------------------------------------------------
Math behind those numbers:
Assume 50% crit rate, and take numbers out of my WWS (yes, I have 4/5 T6)
Auto Shot: 1107 Hit AVG, 2633 Crit AVG
Steady Shot: 1131 Hit AVG, 2724 Crit AVG
Arcane Shot: 1047 Hit AVG, 2389 Crit AVG
Weapon speed is 3.0 modified only by a 15% quiver, as well as .2s of latency.
1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots, 2 Steady Shots, and 1 Arcane Shot in 5 seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
2:3 rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots and 3 Steady Shots in 6.1 Seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.9 Auto Shot Fires
4.1 Steady Shot
5.6 Steady Shot Fires
6.4 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
1:1 rotation will fire 1 Auto Shot and 1 Steady Shot in 2.5 Seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
-------------------------------------------------------
As this shows, in the presence of 0% haste, you are better off using a 1:1.5 rotation than either of the others. Unfortunately, the 1:1.5 rotation is tied directly to the 5 second Arcane Shot cooldown and is thus not improved by any haste increases.
Assume now the presence of the Heroism (or Bloodlust) buff, granting 30% haste. This will decrease the cast time of Steady Shot from 1.5 seconds to 1.05 seconds (going to be simplified to 1.0 seconds) and decrease the Auto Shot timer to 2.04 seconds (going to be simplified to 2.0 seconds).
1:1.5 = 1862 DPS
2:3 = 1904 DPS
1:1 = 1898 DPS
--------------------------------------------------------
1:1.5 rotation will perform exactly the same as it will sit stuck on the Arcane Shot cooldown.
2:3 rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots and 3 Steady Shots in 5 seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.2 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot
2.5 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.2 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
1:1 rotation will fire 1 Auto Shot and 1 Steady Shot in 2 seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.2 Steady Shot Fires
2.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
--------------------------------------------------------
What these numbers mean is that (from what I can tell) you want to use the 2:3 rotation in 2 circumstances: Heroism and Rapid Fire. In all other situations, you are better off with a 1:1.5 rotation. If my math is off, please someone correct me- I've provided everything I did here for you.
If you want to pattern off me feel free, I use a 0/28/33 Spec (not my current spec as I was testing a 0/20/41 last night, will be going back tonight) with 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot and 3/3 Expose Weakness. I use /castsequence reset = 3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1) as a macro. My personal best Gorefiend dps is ~1850 as survival (not great but definitely solid) running ~1200 raid buffed agi with a shaman.
In an unhasted ideal situation (i.e. standing there shooting), you'll do the best dps with a 1:1.5 rotation.
1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot = 1862 DPS
1:2 = 1467 DPS
2:3 = 1487 DPS
1:1 = 1519 DPS
The DPS of a standard 1:1.5 rotation is approximately equivalent to that of a 1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation, as has been discussed previously in this thread.
----------------------------------------------------
Math behind those numbers:
Assume 50% crit rate, and take numbers out of my WWS (yes, I have 4/5 T6)
Auto Shot: 1107 Hit AVG, 2633 Crit AVG
Steady Shot: 1131 Hit AVG, 2724 Crit AVG
Arcane Shot: 1047 Hit AVG, 2389 Crit AVG
Weapon speed is 3.0 modified only by a 15% quiver, as well as .2s of latency.
1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots, 2 Steady Shots, and 1 Arcane Shot in 5 seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
2:3 rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots and 3 Steady Shots in 6.1 Seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.9 Auto Shot Fires
4.1 Steady Shot
5.6 Steady Shot Fires
6.4 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
1:1 rotation will fire 1 Auto Shot and 1 Steady Shot in 2.5 Seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
-------------------------------------------------------
As this shows, in the presence of 0% haste, you are better off using a 1:1.5 rotation than either of the others. Unfortunately, the 1:1.5 rotation is tied directly to the 5 second Arcane Shot cooldown and is thus not improved by any haste increases.
Assume now the presence of the Heroism (or Bloodlust) buff, granting 30% haste. This will decrease the cast time of Steady Shot from 1.5 seconds to 1.05 seconds (going to be simplified to 1.0 seconds) and decrease the Auto Shot timer to 2.04 seconds (going to be simplified to 2.0 seconds).
1:1.5 = 1862 DPS
2:3 = 1904 DPS
1:1 = 1898 DPS
--------------------------------------------------------
1:1.5 rotation will perform exactly the same as it will sit stuck on the Arcane Shot cooldown.
2:3 rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots and 3 Steady Shots in 5 seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.2 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot
2.5 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.2 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
1:1 rotation will fire 1 Auto Shot and 1 Steady Shot in 2 seconds.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.2 Steady Shot Fires
2.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
--------------------------------------------------------
What these numbers mean is that (from what I can tell) you want to use the 2:3 rotation in 2 circumstances: Heroism and Rapid Fire. In all other situations, you are better off with a 1:1.5 rotation. If my math is off, please someone correct me- I've provided everything I did here for you.
If you want to pattern off me feel free, I use a 0/28/33 Spec (not my current spec as I was testing a 0/20/41 last night, will be going back tonight) with 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot and 3/3 Expose Weakness. I use /castsequence reset = 3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1) as a macro. My personal best Gorefiend dps is ~1850 as survival (not great but definitely solid) running ~1200 raid buffed agi with a shaman.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Weapon speed - is important, you will want a 3.0 speed weapon. The Archi Bow is ideal but the Vashj bow or S3 bow are also upgrades over Legionkiller. 3.0 speed allows you to perform 1:1.5 (or 2:1 i guess?) with less clipping.
Pet - Get a Windserpent and macro lightning breath to steady shot, arcane shot, and multi shot rather than having it auto cast. Trinkets - Keep using BB & TT... BB is a much better trinket than the hourglass. Upgrades are - Berserker's Call from ZA and/or Madness of the Betrayer from BT. Stats - You'll want to download cheeky's spreadsheet. Gear - You are over the hit cap by a decent amount, you can afford to drop some hit rating (only need 96) (might want to replace your cloak with the one off Kael). Replace that +5 crit +7 stam gem in your boot with +5 agility +7 stam. Neck can also be replaced with the one off Kael. Spec - 0/20/41 is superior than 0/24/37 plus you'll get the benefit of readiness which provides some amazing utility in raids. Please feel free to add anything I missed! |
Weapon speed Depends what is more important to you - personal DPS, higher EW proc, or raid DPS contribution.
If personal DPS is more important to you, then the 3 weapons Vasilii suggested are definitely upgrades. [Serpent Spine Longbow], [Vengeful Gladiator's Heavy Crossbow], and [Bristleblitz Striker] do about 3.5, 8.0, and 10.0 more DPS, respectively, calculated for my character as currently raid geared (working on Kael) over [Legionkiller].
However, if you are looking for higher EW proc, then the above suggestions are downgrades since they have no agi, and you lose about 6 AP on your EW proc (value depends on your EW uptime and the particular weapon - some are more than 6 AP due to the loss of crit as well). For EW proc, the best weapon is [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] from Doomwalker since you can get 32 agi on it, which is 40.5 agi with LR and BoK. This results for my char in about 3.85 more AP on EW proc over [Legionkiller].
However, if you are looking for optimal raid DPS contribution, as I do, you should stay with [Legionkiller] if the weapon differences work out similar for you as they do for me. Compared to the highest DPS weapon, [Bristleblitz Striker], the loss in 9.9 DPS is made up by the 5.91 extra AP on EW proc as long as there is at least 6 other physical DPS, including pets, in the raid. This is almost always the case in my guild's raids. In addition, the extra 3.85 AP on EW proc from [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] does not come anywhere close to making up for the loss of 38.36 DPS. It would require 34 other physical DPS to be in the raid.
Pet There is nothing wrong with staying with your ravager, as long as the one you have has both Gore and Bite. They still do great DPS for a survival hunter. It's what I currently use. Although a wind serpent could boost your pet DPS a little. Earlier on in this thread there are some discussions on this.
Trinkets What Vasilii said. As my analysis a couple pages back shows, BB and TT is much better than hourglass and TT. Plus, with a 0/20/41 build with MT, the extra AP from BB is better at your gear level than the crit from hourglass to help keep AP and crit balanced towards optimal DPS ratios (wherever the optimal is).
Stats Definitely utilize Cheeky's spreadsheet since what either Vasilii or I suggest may not hold true for your character with its gear and spec. Best to use the spreadsheet or some other tool to help better compare different pieces of gear. Note though that for pieces of gear of "equivalent" overall stats, that one item that was previously worse for you may become better with different gear combinations.
Gear Couldn't see your armory at this time, so just working off Vasilii's suggestion. Definitely, if you are over the hit cap, drop the hit cloak (assume it is [Drape of the Dark Reavers] or [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]) eventually for Kael's cloak since it is the best Survival hunter cloak in the game. But until you can get it, another good option that you can easily acquire with Badges of Justice is [Blood Knight War Cloak].
The neck from Kael is nice, but I have another neck option for you depending on whether personal DPS or overall raid DPS is more important. You can have a JC make you [Necklace of the Deep] (yes its blue and I assume you are not currently wearing this). With 2 +10 agi spindels in it, relative to [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem], it calculates to only 5.5 less DPS but 4.5 more AP on EW proc. That means with about 4 other physical DPS in the raid, the contribution from the two necks is the same. More than 4 other physical DPS results in [Necklace of the Deep] winning out.
Spec I am partial to 0/20/41 spec as well. I have analyzed many others (about 11), and this spec provided me the overall best raid DPS contribution for my character with the buffs he receives and his gear from a couple months ago when I did the analysis (I will revisit the analysis after getting some H/BT gear). Readiness has been helpful in many situations.
However, other specs are very viable too (with advocates for each) and may be better for your character with your gear and/or playing style. Suggest checking some out in Cheeky's spreadsheet yourself.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/08/08 at 6:41 PM. Reason: Fixed item name
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Were you using a macro for your 1:1.5 or manually timing it?
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
In an unhasted ideal situation (i.e. standing there shooting), you'll do the best dps with a 1:1.5 rotation.
1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot = 1862 DPS 1:2 = 1467 DPS 2:3 = 1487 DPS 1:1 = 1519 DPS As this shows, in the presence of 0% haste, you are better off using a 1:1.5 rotation than either of the others. Unfortunately, the 1:1.5 rotation is tied directly to the 5 second Arcane Shot cooldown and is thus not improved by any haste increases. Assume now the presence of the Heroism (or Bloodlust) buff, granting 30% haste. This will decrease the cast time of Steady Shot from 1.5 seconds to 1.05 seconds (going to be simplified to 1.0 seconds) and decrease the Auto Shot timer to 2.04 seconds (going to be simplified to 2.0 seconds). 1:1.5 = 1862 DPS 2:3 = 1904 DPS 1:1 = 1898 DPS -------------------------------------------------------- 1:1.5 rotation will perform exactly the same as it will sit stuck on the Arcane Shot cooldown. What these numbers mean is that (from what I can tell) you want to use the 2:3 rotation in 2 circumstances: Heroism and Rapid Fire. In all other situations, you are better off with a 1:1.5 rotation. If my math is off, please someone correct me- I've provided everything I did here for you. If you want to pattern off me feel free, I use a 0/28/33 Spec (not my current spec as I was testing a 0/20/41 last night, will be going back tonight) with 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot and 3/3 Expose Weakness. I use /castsequence reset = 3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1) as a macro. My personal best Gorefiend dps is ~1850 as survival (not great but definitely solid) running ~1200 raid buffed agi with a shaman. |
It is true that a 1:1.5 rotation that you listed is unaffected by the haste; however, other forms of a 1:1.5 rotation that uses a arcane and a multishot instead of two arcanes is affected some by haste since there is roughly 10.5 secs with a 3.0 weapon speed weapon between two arcanes and between two multishots. This is much longer than the 6 second cooldown on unimproved arcane shot and slightly longer than the 10 second cooldown on multishot. Hence, there is a little room for haste to be beneficial, with the multishot cooldown being the limiting factor. If you happen to be raiding with 4 arena pieces (I did at one time when all the Vengeful's were better than what I had), then the multishot cooldown is only 9 seconds, allowing even more room for haste.
Plus, with multishot doing more damage than arcane shot (with also having better damage per mana), in battles where you can use multishot, the 1:1.5 rotation with it should prodcude better DPS unhasted than the IAS 1:1.5 rotation and provide even a little more DPS when hasted.
Please correct me if I am wrong and am misunderstanding any of the theories that resulted in my conclusions.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Nice analysis, but I believe that it is not 100% complete.
It is true that a 1:1.5 rotation that you listed is unaffected by the haste; however, other forms of a 1:1.5 rotation that uses a arcane and a multishot instead of two arcanes is affected some by haste since there is roughly 10.5 secs with a 3.0 weapon speed weapon between two arcanes and between two multishots. This is much longer than the 6 second cooldown on unimproved arcane shot and slightly longer than the 10 second cooldown on multishot. Hence, there is a little room for haste to be beneficial, with the multishot cooldown being the limiting factor. If you happen to be raiding with 4 arena pieces (I did at one time when all the Vengeful's were better than what I had), then the multishot cooldown is only 9 seconds, allowing even more room for haste. Plus, with multishot doing more damage than arcane shot (with also having better damage per mana), in battles where you can use multishot, the 1:1.5 rotation with it should prodcude better DPS unhasted than the IAS 1:1.5 rotation and provide even a little more DPS when hasted. Please correct me if I am wrong and am misunderstanding any of the theories that resulted in my conclusions. |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
The DPS of a standard 1:1.5 rotation is approximately equivalent to that of a 1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation, as has been discussed previously in this thread. |
You can do a full 1:1.5 rotation with just imp arcane shot. Depending on your gear level, the mobs armor, and its resists arcane shot could well do more dmg anyway. If you are using a castsequence macro and have high lag it could also perform better than one containing multi-shot. Plenty of people use a rotation that does not use multi against single target boss mobs and experience similar or superior results to the 1:1.5 with multi-shot.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
You can do a full 1:1.5 rotation with just imp arcane shot. Depending on your gear level, the mobs armor, and its resists arcane shot could well do more dmg anyway. If you are using a castsequence macro and have high lag it could also perform better than one containing multi-shot. Plenty of people use a rotation that does not use multi against single target boss mobs and experience similar or superior results to the 1:1.5 with multi-shot.
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I completely agree with Quiggy. It's been a couple of months since I switched to 5/5 Imp. Arcane, so my WWS logs have dropped out with that spec, but my 'real world' raid damage has significantly increased, as has my spot on the damage meters.
As for the Spreadsheet, I just enetered the appropriate specs and, again, 5/5 Imp. Arcane came out on top. For the spreadsheet I used a 28/33 build with 3/5 RWS vs. 20/41 with 4/5 MT.
Of course, one gives things up with the 28/33 build, mana efficiency being the main, but DPS doesn't appear to be one of them. Also, it appears that a little bit of haste goes a long way to improving the 28/33 build, but it can be something as simple as Cloak of Fiends.
Lastly, I could very well have made a mistake on the spreadsheet, though I triple checked all my inputs. Let me know what you find Vasili.
As for the Spreadsheet, I just enetered the appropriate specs and, again, 5/5 Imp. Arcane came out on top. For the spreadsheet I used a 28/33 build with 3/5 RWS vs. 20/41 with 4/5 MT.
Of course, one gives things up with the 28/33 build, mana efficiency being the main, but DPS doesn't appear to be one of them. Also, it appears that a little bit of haste goes a long way to improving the 28/33 build, but it can be something as simple as Cloak of Fiends.
Lastly, I could very well have made a mistake on the spreadsheet, though I triple checked all my inputs. Let me know what you find Vasili.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I completely disagree with that statement and I don't believe you can provide any WWS logs to back it. Model a 1:1.5 with improved arcane that doesn't use mutli in cheeky's spreadsheet and see the dps loss for yourself. If you are using a castsequence macro for your entire 1:1.5 then you probably need to switch to BM and mash the steady shot button with your face, a joke, but seriously using a cast sequence for the 1:1.5 has to kill the rotation. I don't want to be spamming one button the entire raid anyway, how boring.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I completely disagree with that statement and I don't believe you can provide any WWS logs to back it. Model a 1:1.5 with improved arcane that doesn't use mutli in cheeky's spreadsheet and see the dps loss for yourself. If you are using a castsequence macro for your entire 1:1.5 then you probably need to switch to BM and mash the steady shot button with your face, a joke, but seriously using a cast sequence for the 1:1.5 has to kill the rotation. I don't want to be spamming one button the entire raid anyway, how boring.
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The key is to realize this and to take it into account when evaluating what is currently optimal for you character at the time.
For my hunter and the gear he had a while back, I did a full analysis in Cheeky's using 11 different specs and 5 different rotations for each, and I found at that time that a 1:5 multi rotation with a 0/20/41 build was the superior DPS one at that time.
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Originally Posted by vank
I completely agree with Quiggy. It's been a couple of months since I switched to 5/5 Imp. Arcane, so my WWS logs have dropped out with that spec, but my 'real world' raid damage has significantly increased, as has my spot on the damage meters.
As for the Spreadsheet, I just enetered the appropriate specs and, again, 5/5 Imp. Arcane came out on top. For the spreadsheet I used a 28/33 build with 3/5 RWS vs. 20/41 with 4/5 MT. Of course, one gives things up with the 28/33 build, mana efficiency being the main, but DPS doesn't appear to be one of them. Also, it appears that a little bit of haste goes a long way to improving the 28/33 build, but it can be something as simple as Cloak of Fiends. Lastly, I could very well have made a mistake on the spreadsheet, though I triple checked all my inputs. Let me know what you find Vasili. |
1:1.5 Rotation (Arcane + Multi) 0/20/41 Build (2/3 EW, 3/3 ToTH, 5/5 MT, Readiness)
DPS: 1440.80
Time to OOM: 158.88
1:1.5 Rotation (Arcane Only) 0/28/33 (3/3 EW)
DPS: 1436.63
Time to OOM: 129.95
DPS is very similar, but time to OOM suffers greatly. I think its unrealistic to raid without ToTH unless you are a sure you have a shadow priest and if you do I am jealous! I did not check it out with haste gear though, did a bit of haste provide a significant dps increase?
Looking at all the new gear, a lot of it has haste rating and is meant for BM, though I'm not sure if BM will even like it now with the new 3:2 rotation.
Another thing to think about is the loss of readiness which provides a lot of nice utility for you and your raid.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I see... so the fact that I'm able to spam a macro and dps suddenly means I'm a bad hunter? Personal attacks have no place here. Cheeky's does in fact model a 5/5 imp arcane shot rotation as higher dps, and you're welcome to take a look at my WWS: Wow Web Stats (lots of them there). Whether or not you find a macro "boring", I find a macro allows me to stay more alert in raids, watching things like AOEs, mine (and others') threat, etc. Why does it kill the rotation? I see no evidence, just a lot of personal attacks and anger against hunters "spamming a macro."
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in my experience with Macros for the 1:1.5 they were very unsuccessful. But I do think it would be boring to spam a macro the raid night
and I have yet to be able to model a 1:1.5 with improved arcane that beats 1:1.5 with multi.
I hope someone can clear up some questions for me concerning haste in survival.
I currently don't use any haste in my surv set up just the same as most, but i have been trying the new 2:1 rotation seeing as i have full T6 and the ashtongue trinket...it actually works out very well with the clever use of rapid fire and haste pots....
So heres my question....to turn my 2:1 rotation into a pure 1:1 still staying survival how much haste would i require...
Am i right to think steady shot's gcd is only effected by heroism/bloodlust thus i'd never want to be hasted below 1.5 gcd of steady shot and does the 0.5 of auto shot plus latency also add on to that figure bringing the ultimate hasted time to 2.1ish.
If 2.1 is the perfect survival spec speed to use a 1:1 rotation how much haste is required to get to this magical figure from lets say the 2.6 ranged speed of one of the end content bows(taking the 15% speed reduction of quiver off).
Why would i ask....well i'm looking at all the new gear from 2.4 and see a lot of hasted agility gear, i can see at least 210 haste from lots of items that still have equivielent of better agility than what i'm currently using....this leads me to believe with a pure 1:1 rotation we can really push our personal dps higher than ever seen before whilst still giving an amazingly high ew return to the raid.
I currently don't use any haste in my surv set up just the same as most, but i have been trying the new 2:1 rotation seeing as i have full T6 and the ashtongue trinket...it actually works out very well with the clever use of rapid fire and haste pots....
So heres my question....to turn my 2:1 rotation into a pure 1:1 still staying survival how much haste would i require...
Am i right to think steady shot's gcd is only effected by heroism/bloodlust thus i'd never want to be hasted below 1.5 gcd of steady shot and does the 0.5 of auto shot plus latency also add on to that figure bringing the ultimate hasted time to 2.1ish.
If 2.1 is the perfect survival spec speed to use a 1:1 rotation how much haste is required to get to this magical figure from lets say the 2.6 ranged speed of one of the end content bows(taking the 15% speed reduction of quiver off).
Why would i ask....well i'm looking at all the new gear from 2.4 and see a lot of hasted agility gear, i can see at least 210 haste from lots of items that still have equivielent of better agility than what i'm currently using....this leads me to believe with a pure 1:1 rotation we can really push our personal dps higher than ever seen before whilst still giving an amazingly high ew return to the raid.
Having looked over much of the loot that Blizz has been putting out lately it seems the common theme is haste. Now we can either embrace it or hate it. eg. Shivering Felspine - Items - WOWDB and Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix - Items - WOWDB
A few questions
1. Do you get the feeling that the haste is also an attempt to make the gear more attractive to Shaman?
2. Do you think (using T6 and recent loot) that a set of gear can be put together which would allow SV hunters to maintain a high level of Agil/Crit/etc and Just enough haste to allow us to focus more on the 1:1 shot rotation weaving in the arcane shot.
3. Would MM be better suited for the "hasted" set I asked about in question 2.
4. Assuming a 3.0 speed weapon how much "Haste" would be required to make the stat viable.
A few questions
1. Do you get the feeling that the haste is also an attempt to make the gear more attractive to Shaman?
2. Do you think (using T6 and recent loot) that a set of gear can be put together which would allow SV hunters to maintain a high level of Agil/Crit/etc and Just enough haste to allow us to focus more on the 1:1 shot rotation weaving in the arcane shot.
3. Would MM be better suited for the "hasted" set I asked about in question 2.
4. Assuming a 3.0 speed weapon how much "Haste" would be required to make the stat viable.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
@ Wolfclaw: Heroism/bloodlust doesn't reduce the GCD; check the elemental/resto shaman threads around here for more info. Auto shot completely ignores the GCD. In a 1:1 rotation, the only 2 limitations on when auto shot fires is its own cooldown and the 0.5s cast time which cannot start until steady finishes - but can start before steady's GCD finishes.
As for why there's haste on so many new items, my theory is that blizzard wants to make the newer stuff (ZA/sunwell) attractive (you might even say better) compared to T5/T6-instance drops, but doesn't want to inflate their ilvls to avoid the public outcry (which happens anyway). Because putting more stats on an item makes the stats cheaper, we're seeing more items with 6, 7, or even 8 different stats on them, and armor penetration and haste are the tools blizzard has to make that happen.
The fact that putting more stats on an item makes those stats cheaper ilvl wise is, in my opinion, a fundamental flaw in WoW's loot design, and it makes classes that don't benefit from very many stats pull their hair out (the shadow priests will join us in this one). Itemization schemes (what stats are on an item) should be distributed evenly across all classes, and evenly across all raid zones, not be used to make the items from particular zones better. Ilvls should ratchet up fairly aggressively through raid progression, but for some reason blizzard is afraid to do so. 5-man drops have ilvls over 100, and a characteristic ilvl of Illidan loot is 151. Is the gear from BT intended to only be 50% better than gear from 5-mans? Are players farming Illidan supposed to tank/heal/dps only 50% better than players farming Pathaleon?
As for why there's haste on so many new items, my theory is that blizzard wants to make the newer stuff (ZA/sunwell) attractive (you might even say better) compared to T5/T6-instance drops, but doesn't want to inflate their ilvls to avoid the public outcry (which happens anyway). Because putting more stats on an item makes the stats cheaper, we're seeing more items with 6, 7, or even 8 different stats on them, and armor penetration and haste are the tools blizzard has to make that happen.
The fact that putting more stats on an item makes those stats cheaper ilvl wise is, in my opinion, a fundamental flaw in WoW's loot design, and it makes classes that don't benefit from very many stats pull their hair out (the shadow priests will join us in this one). Itemization schemes (what stats are on an item) should be distributed evenly across all classes, and evenly across all raid zones, not be used to make the items from particular zones better. Ilvls should ratchet up fairly aggressively through raid progression, but for some reason blizzard is afraid to do so. 5-man drops have ilvls over 100, and a characteristic ilvl of Illidan loot is 151. Is the gear from BT intended to only be 50% better than gear from 5-mans? Are players farming Illidan supposed to tank/heal/dps only 50% better than players farming Pathaleon?
Last edited by Gearknight : 02/12/08 at 3:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dibbler
Having looked over much of the loot that Blizz has been putting out lately it seems the common theme is haste. Now we can either embrace it or hate it. eg. Shivering Felspine - Items - WOWDB and Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix - Items - WOWDB
A few questions 1. Do you get the feeling that the haste is also an attempt to make the gear more attractive to Shaman? 2. Do you think (using T6 and recent loot) that a set of gear can be put together which would allow SV hunters to maintain a high level of Agil/Crit/etc and Just enough haste to allow us to focus more on the 1:1 shot rotation weaving in the arcane shot. 3. Would MM be better suited for the "hasted" set I asked about in question 2. 4. Assuming a 3.0 speed weapon how much "Haste" would be required to make the stat viable. |
I modeled it out in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here's what I found: it's not worth it. Using the new gear, I modeled myself out to a raid buffed total of 1243 AGI, 784 STAM, 292 INT, 1474 +AP, 265 +CRIT, 99 +HIT, 364 PEN, and 295 HASTE. I had to add an additional 54 haste rating to my weapon and not use a trinket because Cheeky doesn't support adding trinkets, and I was unable to add in the T6 set bonus using the new pieces of T6, but even with those stats a 1:1 rotation shows a total DPS of 1235, compared to my current gear and shot rotation giving a DPS of 1533.
Things I added:
Shivering Felspine (52agi, Y socket, 53 haste, 120AP) - Polearm
Clutch of Demise (25agi, 33stam, 30 haste, 64AP) - Neck
Duplicitous Guise (43agi, 57stam, RM socket, 30 hit, 34 haste, 126AP) - Helm
Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm (41agi, 33stam, RB socket, 30 haste, 82AP) - Gloves
Embrace of the Phoenix (44agi, 43stam, 30int, RRR socket, 44haste, 104 AP) - Chest
Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP) - Bracers
Gronnstalker's Belt (29agi, 36stam, 17int, R socket, 25crit, 86AP, 140 pen) - Belt
Gronnstalker's Boots (30agi, 30stam, 21int, Y socket, 28crit, 86AP, 96 pen) - Boots
Hard Khorium Band (30agi, 42stam, 28haste, 58AP) - Ring
Starstalker Legguards (57agi, 49stam, 24int, YBB socket, 20hit, 120AP) - Pants
Blackened Naaru Sliver (54haste, Chance on Hit to gain a proc) - Unable to add, added the 54haste to the spear.
Also used:
Gronnstalker's Spaulders
Thalassian Wildercloak
Ring of Deceitful Intent
Berserker's Call
Bristleblitz Striker
I put 10agi gems in each socket save for:
Pants: Glinting Pyrestone, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst, Delicate Crimson Spinel
Boots: Glinting Pyrestone
Gloves; Delicate Crimson Spinel, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst
Spec was 7/20/34.
Obviously the lack of the trinket proc and T6 4piece set bonus hurt the dps, but even so this doesn't seem like a competitive build despite having exceptional sunwell gear. I've never done the BM thing, so I can't exactly say why all of the haste doesn't come near the dps of my BT/Hyjal geared hunter with imp arcane shot, but I think the numbers are definitely there to answer the question. If anyone else has done the math and come up with different answers I'd be interested to know, but this is definitely leading me toward the haste avoidance course of action.
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Originally Posted by vank
I completely agree with Quiggy. It's been a couple of months since I switched to 5/5 Imp. Arcane, so my WWS logs have dropped out with that spec, but my 'real world' raid damage has significantly increased, as has my spot on the damage meters.
As for the Spreadsheet, I just enetered the appropriate specs and, again, 5/5 Imp. Arcane came out on top. For the spreadsheet I used a 28/33 build with 3/5 RWS vs. 20/41 with 4/5 MT. Of course, one gives things up with the 28/33 build, mana efficiency being the main, but DPS doesn't appear to be one of them. Also, it appears that a little bit of haste goes a long way to improving the 28/33 build, but it can be something as simple as Cloak of Fiends. Lastly, I could very well have made a mistake on the spreadsheet, though I triple checked all my inputs. Let me know what you find Vasili. |
But back to my question: why do ya'll think that in the real world dps charts, imp arcane can keep up when on paper, it seems like multishot rotations do better?
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Originally Posted by Snipehunter
I am curious as how people report comparable damage between imp arcane and multishot rotations. When theorycrafting using cheeky's spreadsheets, be sure that on the Buff's tab, something like 5/5 sunder armor is up, because that will strongly skew damage towards favoring multishot.
But back to my question: why do ya'll think that in the real world dps charts, imp arcane can keep up when on paper, it seems like multishot rotations do better? |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Because on paper, the difference in dps between the two is insignificant- you're talking less than 10 dps between the two. I believe that imp arcane shot keeps up with the multishot rotation because it is simpler, and you're less likely to have to reset it during a fight by moving- that's just my opinion, take it as you will.
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@somerandomidiot
Nice work looking at the numbers of maxing out (BM like) but what about the other end of the spectrum. How much is just enough. As an example, you grab Bracers of the Pathfinder (25agi, 24stam, 24int, B socket, 48AP) vs Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP). According to Cheeky (and using my build/gear) this results in:
+10 DPS
-130 mana
-3 sec till OOM
+0.25 EW
Suggested shot rotations are still the same (1:1.5).
So the question now become how much is too much as obviously a little bit is not horrible.
Nice work looking at the numbers of maxing out (BM like) but what about the other end of the spectrum. How much is just enough. As an example, you grab Bracers of the Pathfinder (25agi, 24stam, 24int, B socket, 48AP) vs Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP). According to Cheeky (and using my build/gear) this results in:
+10 DPS
-130 mana
-3 sec till OOM
+0.25 EW
Suggested shot rotations are still the same (1:1.5).
So the question now become how much is too much as obviously a little bit is not horrible.
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Originally Posted by Snipehunter
I am curious as how people report comparable damage between imp arcane and multishot rotations.
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This makes drops my autoshot freqency from 2.75 (with multi) down to 2.7 (with arcane)
For me the difference between an imp. arcane shot 1:1.5 and a multi/arcane 1:1.5 rotation (with sunder armor on) is only 3dps (1136 up to 1139).
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Originally Posted by Dibbler
@somerandomidiot
Nice work looking at the numbers of maxing out (BM like) but what about the other end of the spectrum. How much is just enough. As an example, you grab Bracers of the Pathfinder (25agi, 24stam, 24int, B socket, 48AP) vs Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP). According to Cheeky (and using my build/gear) this results in: +10 DPS -130 mana -3 sec till OOM +0.25 EW Suggested shot rotations are still the same (1:1.5). So the question now become how much is too much as obviously a little bit is not horrible. |
The specific example you posted has nothing to do with haste- even if you removed the haste from them, the T6 bracers are higher ilevel and have better stats than the pathfinder bracers. You lose some int, and gain agi and AP- the haste is just a bonus.
The hell, they now have 8 piece t6 sets? You can do 4/4 t5 and t6? That's going to be hell to add in bonuses for the spreadsheet isnt it?
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
The hell, they now have 8 piece t6 sets? You can do 4/4 t5 and t6? That's going to be hell to add in bonuses for the spreadsheet isnt it?
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That said, I can't imagine 4/4 T5 would be worth it. In order to get it, you'll have to drop some of the higher-budget items like helm, chest, shoulders, legs. I would have to run the numbers, but I can't imagine that the stats lost on dropping those pieces down to T5 would be made up with +5% crit chance on Steady Shot.
Right now, my intentions will be to wear T6 chest and gloves, along with picking up the boots and belt. Then replacing the helm and shoulders with Forest Prowler's and Hidden Predator, respectively.
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Originally Posted by Threepi
Sunwell is adding in belt/boot/bracers for T6.
Right now, my intentions will be to wear T6 chest and gloves, along with picking up the boots and belt. Then replacing the helm and shoulders with Forest Prowler's and Hidden Predator, respectively. |
I'm just talking in the short term. I'd really rather wait until Sunwell gear is near finalized before I start making long term choices. We've only had Council/Illidan down for a couple weeks, so even most of my gear right now isn't what I'd want it to be. I'm specifically looking towards T6 boots and belt because those are two particularly weak pieces for me right now.
I must say I'm disappointed in the amount of haste gear out there. The fact that there's haste on the T6 bracers shows that Blizz has at least some intention of hunters using it. However we're in the unfortunate position where haste isn't going to help unless you have the right amount, which I don't even know if the right amount exists as far as Survival goes.
I must say I'm disappointed in the amount of haste gear out there. The fact that there's haste on the T6 bracers shows that Blizz has at least some intention of hunters using it. However we're in the unfortunate position where haste isn't going to help unless you have the right amount, which I don't even know if the right amount exists as far as Survival goes.
As I have stated a few times previously in this thread, right after the season 3 and new badges gear came out and I acquired some pieces, I evaluated my character against about 11 builds and 5 rotations and determined that at that time a 0/20/41 build with up to Readiness in Survival with a 1:5 multishot rotation was the best for me. This build has 5/5 LS, 5/5 IHM, 2GftT, 1 Aimed Shot, 2 RK, 5 Mortal Shots in the MM tree and 3/3 in each of Monster and Humanoid Slaying and Hawkeye, 1/2 SS, 2/2 CT, 5/5 Survialist, 3/3 Surefooted, 2/2 Survival Instincts, 3/3 KI, 5/5 LR, 2/3 TotH, 3/3 EW, 5/5 MT, and Readiness in the Survival tree. (Yes, I know that Monster Slaying is not too useful for raids, but this is also my normal spec and it helps with farming and there is nothing I prefer in the first 2 levels over it.)
Since the discussion on whether a 1:5 arcane or 1:5 multishot rotation is better, I decided that I would do a quick reevaluation with my current gear (we are about to kill Kael and move onto T6 areas). What I found was a little surprising:
The current data in Cheeky's for my character is:
DPS: 1308.01
Time to OOM: 126.63
EW Uptime: 99.20%
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.14
The first change I made with the 1:5 arcane rotation was a simple spec change where I kept the Survival side identical and only updated the MM side with dropping GftT, RK, and 1 in Mortal Shots since I needed a 5 ranks in IAS in order get a DPS benefit instead of a loss. This resulted in:
DPS: 1327.46 (+19.45)
Time to OOM: 116.48 (-10.15)
EW Uptime: 99.40% (+0.2%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.73 (+0.59)
This is a pretty nice DPS gain despite losing a rank in Mortal Shots. The only negative is the 10s loss in Time to OOM, when I am already bending over backwards with 2 mana oils and sometime a mageblood pot and with blowing through mana pots to keep my mana up. I will probably give this a try though. I also think the loss of RK is not a big deal since my rotation is already very tight.
Now if I was willing to give up Readiness and put that point into topping off Mortal Shots, the result would be:
DPS: 1348.84 (+40.83)
Time to OOM: 116.48 (-10.15)
EW Uptime: 99.40% (+0.2%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.73 (+0.59)
All this did was increase my DPS by 21.38. Don’t know if this is worth the lost in utility of having Readiness with the possible extra FDs, MDs, Rapid Fire, etc. Will have to think on it.
Next option if I get rid of Readiness and am having mana problems would be to drop a point in MT and top off TotH. This results in:
DPS: 1341.80 (+33.79)
Time to OOM: 127.76 (+1.13)
EW Uptime: 99.33% (+0.13%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.52 (+0.38)
Compared to my current spec and rotation, this provides improvement all around with just losing the utility of Readiness. Compared to the previous build, it is a 7.04 DPS and 0.21 avg EW proc loss (so a total raid DPS loss of about 7.5 DPS assuming 8 other physical DPS) for a gain in 11.28 s to OOM. This seems worth it if it allows less time using AoV, dropping down to 1:1 rotation, or actually being OOM.
Looking at some other spec possibilities, I discarded going any higher in the MM tree since Barrage was not going to do me any good if I am not doing a multishot rotation. The only option I saw left that was any benefit was dropping 2 more ranks in MT (leaving 2/5) and getting 2/2 in GftT. This resulted in:
DPS: 1354.91 (+46.9)
Time to OOM: 127.76 (+1.13)
EW Uptime: 99.17% (-0.03%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.05 (-0.09)
The increase in personal DPS here far outgains the loss of raid DPS compared to both my current build and any of the other builds listed. Thus, I think I am sold on the 1:5 IAS rotation, for now, and will be respeccing to 0/23/38 spec if my guild leadership is okay with my loss of Readiness and possibly 0/20/41 IAS/Readiness spec if they prefer me to keep Readiness.
Hope this analysis is helpful to folks. The key is to keep evaluating your characters as you get different gear to see what spec/rotation combinations work the best for you.
Any thoughts?
Since the discussion on whether a 1:5 arcane or 1:5 multishot rotation is better, I decided that I would do a quick reevaluation with my current gear (we are about to kill Kael and move onto T6 areas). What I found was a little surprising:
The current data in Cheeky's for my character is:
DPS: 1308.01
Time to OOM: 126.63
EW Uptime: 99.20%
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.14
The first change I made with the 1:5 arcane rotation was a simple spec change where I kept the Survival side identical and only updated the MM side with dropping GftT, RK, and 1 in Mortal Shots since I needed a 5 ranks in IAS in order get a DPS benefit instead of a loss. This resulted in:
DPS: 1327.46 (+19.45)
Time to OOM: 116.48 (-10.15)
EW Uptime: 99.40% (+0.2%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.73 (+0.59)
This is a pretty nice DPS gain despite losing a rank in Mortal Shots. The only negative is the 10s loss in Time to OOM, when I am already bending over backwards with 2 mana oils and sometime a mageblood pot and with blowing through mana pots to keep my mana up. I will probably give this a try though. I also think the loss of RK is not a big deal since my rotation is already very tight.
Now if I was willing to give up Readiness and put that point into topping off Mortal Shots, the result would be:
DPS: 1348.84 (+40.83)
Time to OOM: 116.48 (-10.15)
EW Uptime: 99.40% (+0.2%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.73 (+0.59)
All this did was increase my DPS by 21.38. Don’t know if this is worth the lost in utility of having Readiness with the possible extra FDs, MDs, Rapid Fire, etc. Will have to think on it.
Next option if I get rid of Readiness and am having mana problems would be to drop a point in MT and top off TotH. This results in:
DPS: 1341.80 (+33.79)
Time to OOM: 127.76 (+1.13)
EW Uptime: 99.33% (+0.13%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.52 (+0.38)
Compared to my current spec and rotation, this provides improvement all around with just losing the utility of Readiness. Compared to the previous build, it is a 7.04 DPS and 0.21 avg EW proc loss (so a total raid DPS loss of about 7.5 DPS assuming 8 other physical DPS) for a gain in 11.28 s to OOM. This seems worth it if it allows less time using AoV, dropping down to 1:1 rotation, or actually being OOM.
Looking at some other spec possibilities, I discarded going any higher in the MM tree since Barrage was not going to do me any good if I am not doing a multishot rotation. The only option I saw left that was any benefit was dropping 2 more ranks in MT (leaving 2/5) and getting 2/2 in GftT. This resulted in:
DPS: 1354.91 (+46.9)
Time to OOM: 127.76 (+1.13)
EW Uptime: 99.17% (-0.03%)
Avg. EW proc AP: 291.05 (-0.09)
The increase in personal DPS here far outgains the loss of raid DPS compared to both my current build and any of the other builds listed. Thus, I think I am sold on the 1:5 IAS rotation, for now, and will be respeccing to 0/23/38 spec if my guild leadership is okay with my loss of Readiness and possibly 0/20/41 IAS/Readiness spec if they prefer me to keep Readiness.
Hope this analysis is helpful to folks. The key is to keep evaluating your characters as you get different gear to see what spec/rotation combinations work the best for you.
Any thoughts?
Rapid fire
During a normal fight, I pop Drums of Battle (haste), bloodlust brooch, and rapid fire and spam steady/auto for the duration of rapid fire, hit readiness, rapid fire, and spam steady/auto yet again. After this, I return to my normal 1:1.5 rotation for 3 mins until rapid fire is up again.
Are you calculating using rapid fire twice due to readiness in your calculations for your dps loss/gain? How much dps does this actually add on an average boss time of 10 minutes?
Thanks in advance
Are you calculating using rapid fire twice due to readiness in your calculations for your dps loss/gain? How much dps does this actually add on an average boss time of 10 minutes?
Thanks in advance
Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to make sure to include all the information.
In regards to my previous post concerning changing to a 1:5 IAS rotation, I have reconsidered after taking into account haste effects, such as [Drums of Battle], Bloodlust, and Rapid Fire. I realized that as soon as I did my previous post and have been working on this analysis when I can since then.
As is generally known, if you have a fixed 1:5 IAS rotation with firing arcane shot after ever other steady shot, it is generally unaffected by haste (or has a limited effect due to weapon speed) since it is an already tight rotation. Thus, very little is gained using this rotation when hasted and many people drop down to a 1:1 rotation while hasted since you can do almost as much DPS and conserve a lot of mana. For illustration using the IAS spec I had thought to use:
1:5 Arcane - unhasted:
DPS: 1354.91; Time to OOM: 126.72; Avg. EW proc AP: 291.05
1:5 Arcane – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1357.18 (+2.27); Time to OOM: 126.44 (-0.28); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.07 (+0.02)
1:5 Arcane – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1361.28 (+6.37); Time to OOM: 125.92 (-0.80); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.12 (+0.07)
1:5 Arcane – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1363.07 (+8.16); Time to OOM: 125.70 (-1.02); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.14 (+0.09)
As can be seen above, hasting a fixed 1:5 IAS rotation provides very little benefit since it is limited by the 5s cooldown on arcane shot. The 1:1 rotation with this build under the various haste effects are:
1:1 – unhasted:
DPS: 1101.99 (-252.92); Time to OOM: 294.32 (+167.60); Avg. EW proc AP: 287.27 (-3.78)
1:1 – Drums of Battle:
DPS: 1146.78 (-208.13); Time to OOM: 274.77 (+148.05); Avg. EW proc AP: 288.41 (-2.64)
1:1 Bloodlust:
DPS: 1307.57 (-47.34); Time to OOM: 224.26 (+97.54); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.04 (-0.01)
1:1 Rapid Fire:
DPS: 1395.59 (+40.68); Time to OOM: 203.96 (+77.24); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.85 (+0.80)
As can be seen above, the 1:1 rotation has comparable or better DPS to the 1:5 IAS rotation when under high levels of haste with saving a lot of mana. So it is actually only better to drop down to the 1:1 rotation when under high haste and not all haste. When only hasted by drums of battle or even just by bloodlust, it is better, at least DPS-wise, to stay with the 1:5 rotation. However, this requires you to not only monitor whether you are hasted or not but also by what you are hasted. It is probably safest to just stay with the 1:5 rotation unless under Rapid Fire or both Bloodlust and Haste Potion. Note that a [Haste Potion] has only a little more haste rating than Bloodlust, so it does similar, although a little better, DPS.
A similar situation exists with a fixed 1:5 arcane, multi rotation (arcane or multi switching after every other steady shot), except that for the same weapon speed, it generally has a little more room for improvement with haste, such that if the haste is small, it is still beneficial to do the 1:5 rotation. Below illustrates my current spec (with dropping Readiness for 3/3 TotH for better comparison) using a 1:5 arcane, multi rotation under various haste effects:
1:5 Arcane, Multi - unhasted:
DPS: 1338.89 (-16.02); Time to OOM: 125.94 (-0.78); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.39 (+0.34)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1337.84 (-17.07); Time to OOM: 125.45 (-1.27); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.43 (+0.38)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1347.07 (-7.84); Time to OOM: 124.32 (-2.40); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.51 (+0.46)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1350.05 (-4.86); Time to OOM: 123.96 (-2.76); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.54 (+0.49)
As can be seen above, hasting a fixed 1:5 Arcane. Multi rotation provides very little benefit since it is limited by the 10s cooldown on multishot. The 1:1 rotation with this build under the various haste effects are:
1:1 – unhasted:
DPS: 1116.32 (-238.59); Time to OOM: 265.83 (+139.11); Avg. EW proc AP: 288.50 (-2.55)
1:1 – Drums of Battle:
DPS: 1162.36 (-192.55); Time to OOM: 249.44 (+122.72); Avg. EW proc AP: 289.50 (-1.55)
1:1 Bloodlust:
DPS: 1327.97 (-26.94); Time to OOM: 204.70 (+77.98); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.72 (+0.67)
1:1 Rapid Fire:
DPS: 1418.88 (+63.97); Time to OOM: 206.77 (+80.05); Avg. EW proc AP: 292.36 (+1.31)
This is similar results for when to use the 1:1 rotation as for the IAS build – only under high levels of haste.
Between the two fixed 1:5 rotations, the IAS one seems superior since it does more personal and raid DPS and has slightly better mana under all haste situations; however, if you instead resort to a 1:1 rotation under high haste, the multi rotation can be better since its 1:1 rotation out performs the IAS build’s 1:1 rotation. So at this point, which is better depends on your play style and how often you are under high levels of haste in the raid.
However, fixed 1:5 rotations is not the whole story. You can use rotations that instead of fixing where the specials are in the rotation when hasted, they instead places them in the ideal location when available, with the restriction of at least one auto-steady-auto-steady between specials.
With this type of rotation, the IAS build’s 1:5 rotation essentially becomes a 1:3 rotation under haste, with an large drop in DPS and gain in Time to OOM when you just have enough haste to change to the 1:3 rotation. The results are:
1:5 (1:3) Arcane – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1270.70 (-84.21); Time to OOM: 159.63 (+32.91); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.16 (+0.11)
1:5 (1:3) Arcane – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1356.64 (+1.73); Time to OOM: 145.71 (+19.99); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.21 (+0.16)
1:5 (1:3) Arcane – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1398.26 (+43.35); Time to OOM: 139.83 (+12.91); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.60 (+0.55)
As you stack haste, this rotation continues to provide more and more DPS and should not ever realistically get to a high enough haste situation to ever become a rotation that does the arcane shot after every 4th steady. Thus, except for the drop off at low haste levels, like for the Drums of Battle, this non-fixed rotation can possibly provide both higher DPS and better mana consumption over the 1:5 fixed IAS rotation used all the time and is another option to consider. Still probably better for the 1:5 IAS rotation to keep with it at low levels of haste and then switch to the 1:1 at high levels of haste.
The unfixed rotation using multishot has the following results:
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1370.63 (+15.72); Time to OOM: 131.10 (+4.38); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.74 (+0.69)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1431.63 (+76.72); Time to OOM: 123.84 (-2.88); Avg. EW proc AP: 292.19 (+1.15)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1453.80 (+98.89); Time to OOM: 121.40 (-5.32); Avg. EW proc AP: 292.32 (+1.27)
As can be seen, this rotation has no drop in DPS or EW proc under haste conditions and continues to scale with both improved DPS and EW proc. This is because at lower haste levels, you are only pushing out your specials a little but with squeezing extra auto-steadys before them periodically. As haste increases, this pushed out specials tighten up closer to where they would be for an unhasted rotation but with the additional auto-steadys included.
Thus, with that information, I am sticking with my 0/20/41 build with Readiness so I have more Rapid Fires in additional to other benefits. To take advantage of the haste effects, I will be doing an unfixed 1:5 arcane, multishot rotation when I can use multishot and an unfixed 1:3 arcane rotation when I cannot use multishot due to CC. This is essentially, although not exactly, what I had been doing already without fully realizing the benefits since I had not previously done the analysis. My macros do close to this but not exactly. I need to experiment with them to see if I can determine an ideal one that scales well with the haste (any suggestions) or try my hand at manual weaving (although manual weaving is not the best for me since I tend to focus in on that task and lose some situational awareness of the rest of the battle).
In regards to my previous post concerning changing to a 1:5 IAS rotation, I have reconsidered after taking into account haste effects, such as [Drums of Battle], Bloodlust, and Rapid Fire. I realized that as soon as I did my previous post and have been working on this analysis when I can since then.
As is generally known, if you have a fixed 1:5 IAS rotation with firing arcane shot after ever other steady shot, it is generally unaffected by haste (or has a limited effect due to weapon speed) since it is an already tight rotation. Thus, very little is gained using this rotation when hasted and many people drop down to a 1:1 rotation while hasted since you can do almost as much DPS and conserve a lot of mana. For illustration using the IAS spec I had thought to use:
1:5 Arcane - unhasted:
DPS: 1354.91; Time to OOM: 126.72; Avg. EW proc AP: 291.05
1:5 Arcane – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1357.18 (+2.27); Time to OOM: 126.44 (-0.28); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.07 (+0.02)
1:5 Arcane – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1361.28 (+6.37); Time to OOM: 125.92 (-0.80); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.12 (+0.07)
1:5 Arcane – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1363.07 (+8.16); Time to OOM: 125.70 (-1.02); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.14 (+0.09)
As can be seen above, hasting a fixed 1:5 IAS rotation provides very little benefit since it is limited by the 5s cooldown on arcane shot. The 1:1 rotation with this build under the various haste effects are:
1:1 – unhasted:
DPS: 1101.99 (-252.92); Time to OOM: 294.32 (+167.60); Avg. EW proc AP: 287.27 (-3.78)
1:1 – Drums of Battle:
DPS: 1146.78 (-208.13); Time to OOM: 274.77 (+148.05); Avg. EW proc AP: 288.41 (-2.64)
1:1 Bloodlust:
DPS: 1307.57 (-47.34); Time to OOM: 224.26 (+97.54); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.04 (-0.01)
1:1 Rapid Fire:
DPS: 1395.59 (+40.68); Time to OOM: 203.96 (+77.24); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.85 (+0.80)
As can be seen above, the 1:1 rotation has comparable or better DPS to the 1:5 IAS rotation when under high levels of haste with saving a lot of mana. So it is actually only better to drop down to the 1:1 rotation when under high haste and not all haste. When only hasted by drums of battle or even just by bloodlust, it is better, at least DPS-wise, to stay with the 1:5 rotation. However, this requires you to not only monitor whether you are hasted or not but also by what you are hasted. It is probably safest to just stay with the 1:5 rotation unless under Rapid Fire or both Bloodlust and Haste Potion. Note that a [Haste Potion] has only a little more haste rating than Bloodlust, so it does similar, although a little better, DPS.
A similar situation exists with a fixed 1:5 arcane, multi rotation (arcane or multi switching after every other steady shot), except that for the same weapon speed, it generally has a little more room for improvement with haste, such that if the haste is small, it is still beneficial to do the 1:5 rotation. Below illustrates my current spec (with dropping Readiness for 3/3 TotH for better comparison) using a 1:5 arcane, multi rotation under various haste effects:
1:5 Arcane, Multi - unhasted:
DPS: 1338.89 (-16.02); Time to OOM: 125.94 (-0.78); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.39 (+0.34)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1337.84 (-17.07); Time to OOM: 125.45 (-1.27); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.43 (+0.38)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1347.07 (-7.84); Time to OOM: 124.32 (-2.40); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.51 (+0.46)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1350.05 (-4.86); Time to OOM: 123.96 (-2.76); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.54 (+0.49)
As can be seen above, hasting a fixed 1:5 Arcane. Multi rotation provides very little benefit since it is limited by the 10s cooldown on multishot. The 1:1 rotation with this build under the various haste effects are:
1:1 – unhasted:
DPS: 1116.32 (-238.59); Time to OOM: 265.83 (+139.11); Avg. EW proc AP: 288.50 (-2.55)
1:1 – Drums of Battle:
DPS: 1162.36 (-192.55); Time to OOM: 249.44 (+122.72); Avg. EW proc AP: 289.50 (-1.55)
1:1 Bloodlust:
DPS: 1327.97 (-26.94); Time to OOM: 204.70 (+77.98); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.72 (+0.67)
1:1 Rapid Fire:
DPS: 1418.88 (+63.97); Time to OOM: 206.77 (+80.05); Avg. EW proc AP: 292.36 (+1.31)
This is similar results for when to use the 1:1 rotation as for the IAS build – only under high levels of haste.
Between the two fixed 1:5 rotations, the IAS one seems superior since it does more personal and raid DPS and has slightly better mana under all haste situations; however, if you instead resort to a 1:1 rotation under high haste, the multi rotation can be better since its 1:1 rotation out performs the IAS build’s 1:1 rotation. So at this point, which is better depends on your play style and how often you are under high levels of haste in the raid.
However, fixed 1:5 rotations is not the whole story. You can use rotations that instead of fixing where the specials are in the rotation when hasted, they instead places them in the ideal location when available, with the restriction of at least one auto-steady-auto-steady between specials.
With this type of rotation, the IAS build’s 1:5 rotation essentially becomes a 1:3 rotation under haste, with an large drop in DPS and gain in Time to OOM when you just have enough haste to change to the 1:3 rotation. The results are:
1:5 (1:3) Arcane – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1270.70 (-84.21); Time to OOM: 159.63 (+32.91); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.16 (+0.11)
1:5 (1:3) Arcane – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1356.64 (+1.73); Time to OOM: 145.71 (+19.99); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.21 (+0.16)
1:5 (1:3) Arcane – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1398.26 (+43.35); Time to OOM: 139.83 (+12.91); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.60 (+0.55)
As you stack haste, this rotation continues to provide more and more DPS and should not ever realistically get to a high enough haste situation to ever become a rotation that does the arcane shot after every 4th steady. Thus, except for the drop off at low haste levels, like for the Drums of Battle, this non-fixed rotation can possibly provide both higher DPS and better mana consumption over the 1:5 fixed IAS rotation used all the time and is another option to consider. Still probably better for the 1:5 IAS rotation to keep with it at low levels of haste and then switch to the 1:1 at high levels of haste.
The unfixed rotation using multishot has the following results:
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Drums of Battle (80 haste):
DPS: 1370.63 (+15.72); Time to OOM: 131.10 (+4.38); Avg. EW proc AP: 291.74 (+0.69)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Bloodlust (368 haste):
DPS: 1431.63 (+76.72); Time to OOM: 123.84 (-2.88); Avg. EW proc AP: 292.19 (+1.15)
1:5 Arcane, Multi – Rapid Fire (526 haste):
DPS: 1453.80 (+98.89); Time to OOM: 121.40 (-5.32); Avg. EW proc AP: 292.32 (+1.27)
As can be seen, this rotation has no drop in DPS or EW proc under haste conditions and continues to scale with both improved DPS and EW proc. This is because at lower haste levels, you are only pushing out your specials a little but with squeezing extra auto-steadys before them periodically. As haste increases, this pushed out specials tighten up closer to where they would be for an unhasted rotation but with the additional auto-steadys included.
Thus, with that information, I am sticking with my 0/20/41 build with Readiness so I have more Rapid Fires in additional to other benefits. To take advantage of the haste effects, I will be doing an unfixed 1:5 arcane, multishot rotation when I can use multishot and an unfixed 1:3 arcane rotation when I cannot use multishot due to CC. This is essentially, although not exactly, what I had been doing already without fully realizing the benefits since I had not previously done the analysis. My macros do close to this but not exactly. I need to experiment with them to see if I can determine an ideal one that scales well with the haste (any suggestions) or try my hand at manual weaving (although manual weaving is not the best for me since I tend to focus in on that task and lose some situational awareness of the rest of the battle).
im sorry if this may be a bit offa topic. but ive read quite a few posts in this topic. it seems to be a 1.1.5 shot rotation with a bow speed of 3.0 would be ideal for a survival hunter. are there any great macros that i could use? one for cc and one without?
Usually i use the 1:1,5 rotation with AS/MS.
In my last 2 raids i have been trying the 2:1 rotation with the following macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
What i noticed however was that my FPS would drop immensely when using this macro and also my UI freezes as soon as the target i am DPS-ing dies and it unfreezes when i stop spamming the macro. Therefore i feel that i can't test this rotation to it's full potential compared to my old rotation. Does anyone have similar problems and perhaps a solution for it?
In my last 2 raids i have been trying the 2:1 rotation with the following macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
What i noticed however was that my FPS would drop immensely when using this macro and also my UI freezes as soon as the target i am DPS-ing dies and it unfreezes when i stop spamming the macro. Therefore i feel that i can't test this rotation to it's full potential compared to my old rotation. Does anyone have similar problems and perhaps a solution for it?
Post 17 : http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html
Has been expanded with a number of sunwell items.
If there are any new findings please post them in this thread. (If i don't respond, PM)
Has been expanded with a number of sunwell items.
If there are any new findings please post them in this thread. (If i don't respond, PM)
|
Originally Posted by Baelrah
Usually i use the 1:1,5 rotation with AS/MS.
In my last 2 raids i have been trying the 2:1 rotation with the following macro: /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() What i noticed however was that my FPS would drop immensely when using this macro and also my UI freezes as soon as the target i am DPS-ing dies and it unfreezes when i stop spamming the macro. Therefore i feel that i can't test this rotation to it's full potential compared to my old rotation. Does anyone have similar problems and perhaps a solution for it? |
|
Originally Posted by Baelrah
Usually i use the 1:1,5 rotation with AS/MS.
In my last 2 raids i have been trying the 2:1 rotation with the following macro: /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() What i noticed however was that my FPS would drop immensely when using this macro and also my UI freezes as soon as the target i am DPS-ing dies and it unfreezes when i stop spamming the macro. Therefore i feel that i can't test this rotation to it's full potential compared to my old rotation. Does anyone have similar problems and perhaps a solution for it? |
That "might" be the cause for the problem you describe or at least hide possible information for what is causing it (since you don't see any errors).
Try adding "/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()" after the error frame clearing or just remove the "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" line.
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Originally Posted by Ambrosium
You are permanently hiding the UIErrorFrame which is also responsible for showing quest progress and other stuff beside error messages.
That "might" be the cause for the problem you describe or at least hide possible information for what is causing it (since you don't see any errors). Try adding "/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()" after the error frame clearing or just remove the "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" line. |
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorFrame:Clear(); UIErrorFrame:Show()
|
Originally Posted by Zomghuntar
My macro actually does have the "UIErrorsFrame:Show()" in it(see below). And I'm still having the problem.
I guess I can try it without the "Hide" feature, but I don't know what I would consider worse: lagging after a boss for a few seconds, or watching "Can't do that yet" errors spam my screen all night. |
Lag after a boss kill is probably just your damage meter syncronizing I'd guess.
|
Originally Posted by Baelrah
my UI freezes as soon as the target i am DPS-ing dies and it unfreezes when i stop spamming the macro
|
And I don't have any damage meters installed.
It's normally nothing too serious, maybe 1-2 seconds of a freeze. But when my friend and I two-man Azuregos I can end up sitting there for close to 2-3 minutes with my UI frozen before it clears up.
|
Originally Posted by Baelrah
What i noticed however was that my FPS would drop immensely when using this macro
|
|
Originally Posted by Baelrah
In my last 2 raids i have been trying the 2:1 rotation with the following macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Recently respecced from 0/20/41 to 0/24/37 with 5/5 IAS after reading this thread.
Macro I currently use:
After downloading v43 of Cheeky's spreadsheet I was playing with the new Shot Rotation tab and got a 70dps increase by changing the macro option from castsequence to spam. This got my attention ;-)
So I'm looking for input on the 1:1x spam macros including Arcane shot below:
or
Which will work to properly model the 1:1x spam macro numbers I am seeing on Cheeky's spreadsheet?
Macro I currently use:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
So I'm looking for input on the 1:1x spam macros including Arcane shot below:
/cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /cast Arcane Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /cast Arcane Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Last edited by Pointyteeth : 02/15/08 at 5:07 PM.
Afaik dropthrough macros dont work. Yours would exit every time arcane shot is on cooldown. This is what people typically do for a spam macro that includes arcane shot:
/cast !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Afaik dropthrough macros dont work. Yours would exit every time arcane shot is on cooldown. This is what people typically do for a spam macro that includes arcane shot:
/cast !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
Would you say this is the best macro for Survival hunters?
Last edited by Stonga : 02/16/08 at 2:48 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I think it is though if your arcane shot isnt hitting for a lot more than your steady I would delete arcane shot from it and use the mana on a haste pot. If you dont have a shadow sissy I would get rid of kill command too.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 02/16/08 at 7:59 PM.
Hello all.
After raiding as BM 41/20/0 for a while, I respecced back to SV.
Since I've gotten so used to the 1:1 BM rotation with my BBL I've been re-evaluating the 1:1,5 SV rotation I've been used to (especially since the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations started popping up).
The thing that is messing me up a bit currently is that I can't get a good comparison of 1:1,5 (with multi) and 3:2/2:1 since the multi's on the Dr. Boom's bombs screw over the results of any tests I do.
Since there are a lot of people here who've most likely run all these tests already, I'm asking here for confirmation on the following points:
* With a 3.0 weapon, (Bristlebritz striker) it seems to me that the 'old' 1:1,5 (with multi) rotation gives the best dps unhasted. I use a !auto/steady macro and weave in arcane and multi manually. Is this assumption correct?
(with rapidfire or other haste effects I can easily fall back to 1:1 with this setup)
* Is it worth speccing 5 points in imp. arcane shot to be able to keep up a 1:1,5 with arcanes only for dps with lots of CC around?
* Does a 1:1,5 (with improved arcanes only) make the Talon of Al'ar trinket actually viable, since the buff will be up 100% of the time?
Some other observations:
I've been toying a bit with the 'new' spam macro (/cast !auto shot /cast steady shot instead of the castsequence). With my 3.0 weapon it seems to give a straight 2:1 rotation (2 steady's, then auto). In raids with some fps issues/latency it seems to almost completely lock out the auto-shots. I've editted it into "/cast !auto shot /castsequence Steady Shot" which seems to help in the tests, haven't tested it in raids though.
Seems to me that hunter dps mechanics have become incredibly complicated lately
armory profile for completeness: The World of Warcraft Armory
After raiding as BM 41/20/0 for a while, I respecced back to SV.
Since I've gotten so used to the 1:1 BM rotation with my BBL I've been re-evaluating the 1:1,5 SV rotation I've been used to (especially since the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations started popping up).
The thing that is messing me up a bit currently is that I can't get a good comparison of 1:1,5 (with multi) and 3:2/2:1 since the multi's on the Dr. Boom's bombs screw over the results of any tests I do.
Since there are a lot of people here who've most likely run all these tests already, I'm asking here for confirmation on the following points:
* With a 3.0 weapon, (Bristlebritz striker) it seems to me that the 'old' 1:1,5 (with multi) rotation gives the best dps unhasted. I use a !auto/steady macro and weave in arcane and multi manually. Is this assumption correct?
(with rapidfire or other haste effects I can easily fall back to 1:1 with this setup)
* Is it worth speccing 5 points in imp. arcane shot to be able to keep up a 1:1,5 with arcanes only for dps with lots of CC around?
* Does a 1:1,5 (with improved arcanes only) make the Talon of Al'ar trinket actually viable, since the buff will be up 100% of the time?
Some other observations:
I've been toying a bit with the 'new' spam macro (/cast !auto shot /cast steady shot instead of the castsequence). With my 3.0 weapon it seems to give a straight 2:1 rotation (2 steady's, then auto). In raids with some fps issues/latency it seems to almost completely lock out the auto-shots. I've editted it into "/cast !auto shot /castsequence Steady Shot" which seems to help in the tests, haven't tested it in raids though.
Seems to me that hunter dps mechanics have become incredibly complicated lately
armory profile for completeness: The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Unahorn
Hello all.
The thing that is messing me up a bit currently is that I can't get a good comparison of 1:1,5 (with multi) and 3:2/2:1 since the multi's on the Dr. Boom's bombs screw over the results of any tests I do. |
Now a question: how large of a constraint is mana on a survival hunter's DPS without a shadowpriest? I'm trying to work out why a 3/3 TotH hunter I know is doing poorly on DPS, and it looks like he's never mana potting, so I'm guessing he's spending every fight in Viper. His rotations seem to be approximately 1:1.5. He also doesn't appear to be using a pet at all on any fight that has aoe damage (gorefiend/ros/rage/anetheron) which seems an all-around bad idea. His gear is half t6 level and half t5 level so while I wouldn't expect amazing personal dps, just-above-the-MT damage seems below potential as well.
I'll be digging through the survival thread over lunch to see if this is expected behaviour (I haven't been LR since pre-c'thun, so I haven't been keeping up with this thread ), but my first impulse is to send him a huge "you're doing it wrong!" card.
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Originally Posted by alienangel
Now a question: how large of a constraint is mana on a survival hunter's DPS without a shadowpriest? I'm trying to work out why a 3/3 TotH hunter I know is doing poorly on DPS, and it looks like he's never mana potting
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Using no pots, there would be no way to sustain 1:1.5 for longer than a few minutes, except perhaps Mark of Conquest or gearing for massive intellect.
Your just-above-the-MT friend needs to stop raiding until he can afford to bring multiple stacks of fel mana to each raid.
Hi people,
Is there any specific hunter spec. for kaeltas encouter?
Thanks,
Is there any specific hunter spec. for kaeltas encouter?
Thanks,
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Originally Posted by Pancho
Hi people,
Is there any specific hunter spec. for kaeltas encouter? Thanks, |
|
Originally Posted by Pancho
Hi people,
Is there any specific hunter spec. for kaeltas encouter? Thanks, |
|
Originally Posted by Pancho
Hi people,
Is there any specific hunter spec. for kaeltas encouter? Thanks, |
1) Gives good DPS with the scaling of the bow
2) We only have 3 raiding hunters and usually only 2 in the raid. So Readiness is useful not only for the extra Rapid Fires but also for the extra MD to get the bosses to their tanks awaiting for them in their respective tank spots to help facilitate the battle. I MD Sang to a tank, the other hunter MDs Cap to the lock tank, and then I MD Tele to his tank. Usually 2 mins haven't elapsed by when I need to MD to the tele tank, so I use Readiness to get that MD off on time. It is also useful for getting extra MDs off on the maikn tank during Gravity Lapses to help ensure that he is still top in threat when the GL ends.
3) Max EW uptime and average AP proc value is useful for getting through the fight faster. Although I am a ranged attacker, I go to all of the melee DPS targets instead of the ranged DPS targets since that is where most of our physical DPS is at.
Concerning my pet, since unlike BMs who get a 2% damage bonus when their pet is around and can rez their pets quick, I dismiss my pet during phases 1 through 3, to make sure that it is alive in phases 4 and 5 to help get Kael and the barriers down a little faster. In Phase 1 and 3, my pet (ravager) can only be used on Sang and Tele, and really is not needed for them. Several of the weapons will also kill my pet as well, so I do not use it in phase 2 either.
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Originally Posted by alienangel
just a general comment on this, the fact that Dr. Boom tests have multishot hitting multiple targets shouldn't be that problematic. Either divide the number of multishots by 3 to find out how many you fired or (more reliably) just filter out all the shots whose target isn't Dr. Boom - WWS can do that, or you can do it manually with grep or even an MSWord search&replace. That'll let you get a count of how many of each special you fired during a test, just multiply by your average damage on a boss for each special, and you'll get damage done.
Now a question: how large of a constraint is mana on a survival hunter's DPS without a shadowpriest? I'm trying to work out why a 3/3 TotH hunter I know is doing poorly on DPS, and it looks like he's never mana potting, so I'm guessing he's spending every fight in Viper. His rotations seem to be approximately 1:1.5. He also doesn't appear to be using a pet at all on any fight that has aoe damage (gorefiend/ros/rage/anetheron) which seems an all-around bad idea. His gear is half t6 level and half t5 level so while I wouldn't expect amazing personal dps, just-above-the-MT damage seems below potential as well. I'll be digging through the survival thread over lunch to see if this is expected behaviour (I haven't been LR since pre-c'thun, so I haven't been keeping up with this thread ), but my first impulse is to send him a huge "you're doing it wrong!" card. |
To make up for this loss of mana regen and to limit the time with AoV up (although I do use it in certain "quiet" phases of fights (such as Vashj phase 1 after usinig my first mana pot) to help ensure full mana entering "max DPS" phases), I use mana oils on both weapons. I usually have a shaman in my group to drop GoA and SoE (for pet and melee DPS in group) to maximum my personal DPS and EW proc. The shaman also drops mana spring that along with BoW means that I only have to use a couple pots in a long battle. However, without a shaman, I need to basically chain pots and also possibly use a mageblood potion if its a really long fight or one that requires extra specials like Scorpid.
One thing to consider beyond poor playing of the hunter is what buffs he is receiving. His personal DPS and EW proc will both suffer if not getting the right buffs. Ideally, a Survivial hunter should have a druid with LotP for that extra 5% crit and a shaman with GoA for that extra ~112 agi if fully improved totem. Also Kings is by far the most important pally buff for Survival hunters with Wisdom and Might switching 2nd place depending on the battle and mana needs. A hunter, especially one with Readiness and extra chances to FD, should not be getting Salv in place of any of the other 3 pally buffs listed (except in rare situations) since they should be able to properly manage their threat with proper use of MD and FD. If a hunter is routinely pulling aggro, putting Salv on them when you have less than 4 pallies in the raid is not the best answer. Teaching them how to properly manage their threat is.
Regardless of the buffs, the Survival hunter should be well above the MT in damage. When ideally buffed and with the right spec, gear, and rotation, they should and can often be in the top 5.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
A couple of comments. I know that 3/3 TotH is very useful for mana and keeping up personal DPS, but I think that having 3/3 EW (with 2/3 TotH) is more effective. I only have 2/3 ranks in TotH and none in Efficiency so that I can improve my raid contribution with 3/3 EW and 5/5 IHM.
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Another great option for hunter mana is throwing up a JoW which basically ensures that you will never run out of mana. We usually raid with a ret pally which means JoW is up on several fights, the mana return is incredible. However for those fights without a JoW I feel that 3/3 TotH is necessary right now to maintain good personal dps in my situation. My gear is fairly weak (lots of pvp gear) so I'm considering going 2/3 Toth and 3/3 EW once I get some better items. Although even this is debatable because 3/3 TotH may allow me to wear more leather and when i look at the
Sunwell gear i dont see much mail that is very good but i see a lot of sexy leather pieces.
For 5/5 IHM our GM has made one of the BM hunters get that which I feel is the way to go since they are more mana efficient, they can better withstand the loss of Efficiency.
As far as DPS, I am a consistent finisher in the top 5... I usually am #1 on Azgalor and in our first Gorefiend kill I was #2 behind an insane rogue.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I agree here with Whitefyst but I chose to go 3/3 TotH and 2/3 EW. EW uptime is still around 90% (as modeled by the spreadsheet) and I find I almost never use viper but this is of course dependent upon the fight. Typically I'm in the worthless outcast group which consists of a BM Hunter and 3 warlocks. Chain potting is necessary for most fights so if your hunter is not doing so you better yell loudly at him
As far as DPS, I am a consistent finisher in the top 5... I usually am #1 on Azgalor and in our first Gorefiend kill I was #2 behind an insane rogue. |
Also, I would definitely love to have 3/3 TotH, but with my average EW proc nearing 300 AP when fully raid buffed, that 10% loss in "ideal" uptime results in roughly 30 AP loss in EW proc. This is roughly a loss of 72 raid DPS. The effect of 3/3 in EW is even more important in battles where we are moving around a lot and the uptime is lower for all ranks in the skill. Since I have other mechanisms available to manage my mana, I chose to maximize my EW proc with my takents, and that was also a strong suggestion from guild leaders.
I am also usually in the top 5 in DPS in our raids, with only the rogues consistently beating me (one of our BM hunters has recently gotten better geared and is starting to beat me a fair amount as well). Although there are some rare occasions where I do end up #1, with it occurring most on Fanthom Lord. The battles where I do not end up in the top 5 are usually the AoE heavy battles where I do not participate in the AoE much.
It is impressive how well you are performing in the outcast group. I am curious to see how much better you would perform if placed in an ideal group.
Hence, Survival hunters can be competitve.
Need Survival Raiding Help
Hey all, first time posting here.
Little background: I've played WoW since closed beta and been playing a hunter since they first came out in closed beta. Through this time I've always been a survival hybrid spec.
So, I've read up to about page 40 on here. I've tried to get all the gear needed and a good dps spec, but I'm having a bit of a problem with my dps.
WWS from our last raid: Wow Web Stats
Our guild is currently on vashj and kael (currently working on vashj). We're a casual guild, raids 2 nights a week.
For some reason my dps is at 737. I'm relatively high on the dps meters even though my straight dps is pretty low. Fully raid buffed (including GoA, warp burgers, major agi pots etc... my agi is up to 1049.
Now, any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? Is my gear bad? I'm trying to get the 1:1.5 shot rotation down and it seemed like I did until this last raid.
Thanks in advance.
Little background: I've played WoW since closed beta and been playing a hunter since they first came out in closed beta. Through this time I've always been a survival hybrid spec.
So, I've read up to about page 40 on here. I've tried to get all the gear needed and a good dps spec, but I'm having a bit of a problem with my dps.
WWS from our last raid: Wow Web Stats
Our guild is currently on vashj and kael (currently working on vashj). We're a casual guild, raids 2 nights a week.
For some reason my dps is at 737. I'm relatively high on the dps meters even though my straight dps is pretty low. Fully raid buffed (including GoA, warp burgers, major agi pots etc... my agi is up to 1049.
Now, any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? Is my gear bad? I'm trying to get the 1:1.5 shot rotation down and it seemed like I did until this last raid.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Kope : Yesterday at 4:52 PM.
Kope
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Originally Posted by Kope
Now, any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? Is my gear bad? I'm trying to get the 1:1.5 shot rotation down and it seemed like I did until this last raid. Thanks in advance. |
On the VR Kill your rotation is much closer to 1:1 than 1:1.5, you have 113 specials to 106 Autos but this is expected due to the nature of the VR fight. Again your pet is not using gore/bite. I'm guessing your not talented into GftT which you should be as it is a significant dps increase. A misconception about survival is that you do not need your pet which is false, it provides a big boost to your dps and you should keep it alive if at all possible.
Much of your gear you can upgrade outside of 25 mans, use Cheeky's spreadsheet in the Hunter spreadsheets in development thread to find applicable gear upgrades. Also use the best enchants/gems possible in your gear, ignore socket bonuses and use +8 agility, only have 2 yellow and 2 blue gems to meet your meta requirement. PM me if you need a list of upgrades but this thread is full of similar questions about gear and upgrade lists so I don't need to waste space posting another one.
Get an arena team if you don't have one... a lot of the PVP gear is superior and easier to get than PVE gear. S3 Helm > T6 Helm, enough said.
I just checked my old guild's first VR kill and I pulled 745 DPS with zero gear from 25 mans and using a scorpid pet on a boss that is immune to poisons. VR is a terrible fight for survival for what its worth.
Thanks for the help!
Couple notes - I had gore and bite both on, not sure why they're not showing up.
My auto:steady is a bit off because when I use my rapid fire + berzerking macro I try to mix in steady/auto/multi/auto/arcane/auto/steady etc... Should I just be using steady? I thought i read a couple times multi/arcane actually put out more damage in shot/shot ratio.
I have a few pieces outside of 25 mans I'm still looking for, but in the course of 3 weeks going from all greens to this gear is decent.
I'm also currently using Zhunter mod for my autoshot timer and aspect bar. It's been suggested to use Quartz because it compensates for lag, is Quartz more beneficial?
Even though I've read the debates I'm still a little iffy on exactly what gear I need to be getting. I know as much agi as possible but I'm currently trying to balance a little crit and stam in there as well.
Couple notes - I had gore and bite both on, not sure why they're not showing up.
My auto:steady is a bit off because when I use my rapid fire + berzerking macro I try to mix in steady/auto/multi/auto/arcane/auto/steady etc... Should I just be using steady? I thought i read a couple times multi/arcane actually put out more damage in shot/shot ratio.
I have a few pieces outside of 25 mans I'm still looking for, but in the course of 3 weeks going from all greens to this gear is decent.
I'm also currently using Zhunter mod for my autoshot timer and aspect bar. It's been suggested to use Quartz because it compensates for lag, is Quartz more beneficial?
Even though I've read the debates I'm still a little iffy on exactly what gear I need to be getting. I know as much agi as possible but I'm currently trying to balance a little crit and stam in there as well.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I pulled 1050dps on VR with a wind serpent and nothing but T5 gear / kara bow with a hybrid sv build. That was back at the end of Jan.
WWS - VR
@ the guy doing 737dps a few posts up, note my ratio of steadies to autos - 160 steadys, 94 autos. Also note the complete lack of arcane or multishot
Something else worth considering, your gear is a little lite for SV. You might consider going BM until you pick up some more T5/ZA/PVP Loot. You would definitely do more dps.
edit: Your main issue was shooting roughly as many specials as you did autos. You want to be minimally around 1.5:1. Missing 50% of your shots in X time is a big hit in dps.
WWS - VR
@ the guy doing 737dps a few posts up, note my ratio of steadies to autos - 160 steadys, 94 autos. Also note the complete lack of arcane or multishot
Something else worth considering, your gear is a little lite for SV. You might consider going BM until you pick up some more T5/ZA/PVP Loot. You would definitely do more dps.
edit: Your main issue was shooting roughly as many specials as you did autos. You want to be minimally around 1.5:1. Missing 50% of your shots in X time is a big hit in dps.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 02/18/08 at 8:54 PM.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind
I thought the dps strat for survival was to never impede on your autoshot. I have been weaving all my other shots around the autoshot timer. Should I be using 2 steadys per auto for max dps?
If you don't mind, what is my gear short on? Aren't I supposed to be going for straight agi? Fully raid buffed I have over 1060 agi, is this not enough or should I be going for other stats as well? I'm a little bit confused on this point.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
@ the guy doing 737dps a few posts up, note my ratio of steadies to autos - 160 steadys, 94 autos. Also note the complete lack of arcane or multishot
edit: Your main issue was shooting roughly as many specials as you did autos. You want to be minimally around 1.5:1. Missing 50% of your shots in X time is a big hit in dps. |
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Something else worth considering, your gear is a little lite for SV. You might consider going BM until you pick up some more T5/ZA/PVP Loot. You would definitely do more dps.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kope
I thought the dps strat for survival was to never impede on your autoshot. I have been weaving all my other shots around the autoshot timer. Should I be using 2 steadys per auto for max dps?
If you don't mind, what is my gear short on? Aren't I supposed to be going for straight agi? Fully raid buffed I have over 1060 agi, is this not enough or should I be going for other stats as well? I'm a little bit confused on this point. |
1) Stay with the 1:5 rotation but see little improvement in DPS since the rotation is limited by the multishot CD
2) Move to a 1:1 rotation, which wil have comparable or better DPS then the 1:5 if with sufficient haste
3) Move to a modified 1:5 rotation that still weaves in arcane and multishot but which places more steady-autos in between to take advantage of the haste
Pick whichever option works best for you. I prefer 3), which I do not implement perfectly but good enough that it is still and improvement over just the 1:1.
Concerning gear, yes agility is very important and the key attribute for survival hunter success. However, we cannot be agility blinded since there are some items with a lot of agility that significantly gimps our DPS such that our total raid contribution is less. Cheeky's spreadsheet is a good tool to be used in making that tradeoff decision.
Besides the suggestions to do some arena to get some of the Vengeful pieces, which would be huge upgrades, other options include getting Badges of Justice to get more of that gear. You are about 7 hit rating short of being capped, one suggestion to get that hit cap, increase your agility, and increase your personal DPS is to replace the T4 gloves with the [Gauntlets of Sniping]. It increases your DPS by 8 and your average EW proc by about 2.6 AP.
Also concerning gear, you have some unideal buffs. I realize that you are probably waiting to get better gear first before making the expenditures, but below is the list of unideal buffs:
1) No enchant on cape. +12 agi is ideal and suggest having it done to this cape since you may need to use this cape from time to time to make hit cap.
2) No enchant to chest. +6 stats is best.
3) No enchant to wrist. +24 AP
4) Only +7 agi to gloves. +15 agi
5) 40 AP, 10 crit on legs. 50 AP, 12 crit a little better
6) +5 agi to boots. +12 agi
Getting these enchant upgrades would increase your DPS by 29, your time to OOM by 3 seconds, and your average EW proc by about 11 AP.
Concerning spec, I have a couple suggestions:
1) Having 2/5 in IHM doesn't really do much. Suggest moving those to GftT as has been suggested by others. That will increase your DPS by 24. If your guild needs for you to have IHM, then move the points in Efficiency to it after you increase your mana pool.
2) Don't need 2 points in Trap Mastery as previous posts have indicated. 1 point (if any) is all you need. Suggest moving 1 or 2 of those points back into Survivalist.
Note that all of my numbers were using the raid buffs I currently receive and may be a little different for you and your raid buffs.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/19/08 at 2:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Is the macro bound to your mouse wheel? I have seen this behavior when bound to a mouse wheel that had its update rate set too aggressively. Slowing down the scroll speed corrected that. Basically if you hear a very light rapid fire sound when you roll it thats whats happening. If not, no idea. I do have the brief hang after a boss kill and I do not have ui errors show on. Not a big deal on that one.
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About the quoted text: This is indeed true for me. I got a MX Revolution so i use the Flywheel option if u know it (= very fast spamming). The other macro i use however does not generate any "Failed to cast" sounds (i think that's the sound you're referring to), and it's bound to the same WheelDown key (switched to the 2:1 macro to test it).
The other macro looks as follows:
#showtooltip SV
/castsequence reset=5/combat Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(Rank 6), Auto Shot, Steady Shot
So it's just a macro that stacks my entire rotation. Still feel this one does more DPS for me than the 2:1 macro. I don't have any WWS logs to back this up however since hunters in my guild keep changing groups every week. Sometimes we get a Shaman and Feral, sometimes just the healers group.
Removing the "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" and "/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()" lines still gives me the "Failed to cast" sounds and the FPS lag.
I tested this as follows:
In the outside world (Barrier Hills, above SH), killing Ogres.
When I select a dead target and start spamming the macro, my FPS drops from 60 (max fps for me, pretty sure my screen is the bottleneck there) to 15-20. The weird part is that when i spam the same macro when i don't have anything selected, fps drops to 25-30. And when I am spamming it to kill an Ogre, fps is 55-60.
When i do the exact same tests with the 1:1,5 macro posted above, i keep fps above 50 at all times.
I'm at a total loss why the 2:1 macro generates FPS loss and the 1:1,5 macro doesn't.
===
Sidenote
The 2:1 macro i use (for people that didn't see my 1st post):
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and have also done above tests with (and same results):
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
and
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
The following macro even brings my fps to an astonishing 5-10 on spamming the macro without a target or a dead target:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorFrame:Clear(); UIErrorFrame:Show()
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
First off, don't go to a 2:1 rotation yet. You do not have the gear to support it yet. Stick with your 1:5 rotation. Concerning haste effects, for small haste effects like [Drums of Battle] stick with your 1:5 rotation since that level of haste just tightens it up. Plus, dropping to a 1:1 with that low level of haste drops your DPS significantly. At high levels of haste you have 3 choices as listed in a post of mine a few pages back.
1) Stay with the 1:5 rotation but see little improvement in DPS since the rotation is limited by the multishot CD 2) Move to a 1:1 rotation, which wil have comparable or better DPS then the 1:5 if with sufficient haste 3) Move to a modified 1:5 rotation that still weaves in arcane and multishot but which places more steady-autos in between to take advantage of the haste Pick whichever option works best for you. I prefer 3), which I do not implement perfectly but good enough that it is still and improvement over just the 1:1. Concerning gear, yes agility is very important and the key attribute for survival hunter success. However, we cannot be agility blinded since there are some items with a lot of agility that significantly gimps our DPS such that our total raid contribution is less. Cheeky's spreadsheet is a good tool to be used in making that tradeoff decision. |
I need different non pure agi gear? Straight dps gear that adds more crit/ap?
I don't have any haste items at all, I thought before they figured out haste actually gimps your dps, has this been revamped and is haste very important for survival now?
I still need a couple items from KZ, and quite a few from ZA. I'm hoping to get the 2 1handers from ZA for max stats.
I read all the stats on IAotH VS MT and it seemed like people were going away from IAotH because the sudden proc in haste screwed up their rotation, is this not true anymore?
I'll have to read the pages I missed in this thread since it seems like the strats on the previous pages have been proven wrong.
Ok, i just did another test and Quiggy was indeed right that the mousewheel spam is the problem. I put the macro just under a normal button and spammed the button by clicking it as fast as i can and... no lag at all.
It's still weird that mousewheel spam generates lag for one macro, but not for the other.
It's still weird that mousewheel spam generates lag for one macro, but not for the other.
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Originally Posted by Kope
Ok, just to get this down:
I need different non pure agi gear? Straight dps gear that adds more crit/ap? |
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Originally Posted by Kope
I don't have any haste items at all, I thought before they figured out haste actually gimps your dps, has this been revamped and is haste very important for survival now?
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What I was referring to was your rotation under dynamic haste effects.
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Originally Posted by Kope
I still need a couple items from KZ, and quite a few from ZA. I'm hoping to get the 2 1handers from ZA for max stats.
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Originally Posted by Kope
I read all the stats on IAotH VS MT and it seemed like people were going away from IAotH because the sudden proc in haste screwed up their rotation, is this not true anymore?
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Originally Posted by Baelrah
Ok, i just did another test and Quiggy was indeed right that the mousewheel spam is the problem. I put the macro just under a normal button and spammed the button by clicking it as fast as i can and... no lag at all.
It's still weird that mousewheel spam generates lag for one macro, but not for the other. |
IAotH - the reason people did not like this previously is 1) the gain from haste was minimal since you were still blocked on the GCD allowing you to move form shot to shot and 2) the sudden change in shot speed complicated timing greatly often resulting in worse execution. Now, if you are using an unlocked macro that has a /cast !auto shot line followed by some sequence of abilities in a /castsequence /castrandom or /cast (not including more !auto shots) you wont have this issue since you keep spamming your macro and it just self adjusts down to a 1:1 rotation as haste increases.
For SV using that sort of a shot macro IAotH is pretty good. So is MT/Readiness. I dont know which is best but the right answer is definitely one or the other for max dps.
For SV using that sort of a shot macro IAotH is pretty good. So is MT/Readiness. I dont know which is best but the right answer is definitely one or the other for max dps.
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Originally Posted by Baelrah
Removing the "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" and "/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()" lines still gives me the "Failed to cast" sounds and the FPS lag.
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#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/tar [exists, nodead, harm]; pettarget
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command, Lightning Breath
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
I have been using this macro on live for quite some time:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
(The Adventures of Adenhart: Survival 1:1.5 Macro)
And it has been working just fine for my rotation. However, after spending some time on the PTR, this macro seems to be having issues. My Steady Shot is being canceled by something mid-cast. I dont know enough about macros to figure it out...I tried a few things but cant get it to work the same way it does on live.
Any ideas?
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
(The Adventures of Adenhart: Survival 1:1.5 Macro)
And it has been working just fine for my rotation. However, after spending some time on the PTR, this macro seems to be having issues. My Steady Shot is being canceled by something mid-cast. I dont know enough about macros to figure it out...I tried a few things but cant get it to work the same way it does on live.
Any ideas?
Thanks for the help, I'm still working on a few issues.
Latest WWS: Wow Web Stats
Is it possible to see a WWS report of a survival hunter w/o any haste?
I Seem to be noticing a little problem from above posters. My steadyshot isn't even close to my autoshot hits. I tend to have 3 or 4 rapid fires on any given boss fight. After I pop rapid fire I tend to weave multi/steady/arcane every time I can. This throws off my steady/auto percentage for every fight. Am I doing this wrong or is it right?
Latest WWS: Wow Web Stats
Is it possible to see a WWS report of a survival hunter w/o any haste?
I Seem to be noticing a little problem from above posters. My steadyshot isn't even close to my autoshot hits. I tend to have 3 or 4 rapid fires on any given boss fight. After I pop rapid fire I tend to weave multi/steady/arcane every time I can. This throws off my steady/auto percentage for every fight. Am I doing this wrong or is it right?
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Originally Posted by Kope
Thanks for the help, I'm still working on a few issues.
Latest WWS: Wow Web Stats Is it possible to see a WWS report of a survival hunter w/o any haste? I Seem to be noticing a little problem from above posters. My steadyshot isn't even close to my autoshot hits. I tend to have 3 or 4 rapid fires on any given boss fight. After I pop rapid fire I tend to weave multi/steady/arcane every time I can. This throws off my steady/auto percentage for every fight. Am I doing this wrong or is it right? |
The high warlord fight is a good one to look at because their is minimum movement. I hit almost an even ratio of auto/steady, only 3 more autos than steadys. Somehow I missed an autoshot on that fight (the only one i missed all night) despite being over the hit cap, strange. I use manual weaving and no macros.
I also use the rapid fire 3-5 times in boss fights, during hasted phases you should maintain a perfect 1:1 steady spam or priority rotation, I just use a steady spam for the reduced mana cost.
You should be weaving in multi/arcane after steady shots but before auto shots like this:
Steady, Multi, Auto
Steady, Auto
Steady, Arcane, Auto
Steady, Auto
Rinse & Repeat.
Are you using macros or doing it manually?
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Here is mine from last night, this is my guild's 3rd week into BT BT WWS
The high warlord fight is a good one to look at because their is minimum movement. I hit almost an even ratio of auto/steady, only 3 more autos than steadys. Somehow I missed an autoshot on that fight (the only one i missed all night) despite being over the hit cap, strange. I use manual weaving and no macros. I also use the rapid fire 3-5 times in boss fights, during hasted phases you should maintain a perfect 1:1 steady spam or priority rotation, I just use a steady spam for the reduced mana cost. You should be weaving in multi/arcane after steady shots but before auto shots like this: Steady, Multi, Auto Steady, Auto Steady, Arcane, Auto Steady, Auto Rinse & Repeat. Are you using macros or doing it manually? |
Also, I don't really have mana problems very often. There was only 1 bossfight where I was OOM by the end of the fight while keeping a constant rotation on.
I also died on the FLK fight and got rez'd so that's why my dps was a bit low there.
I also got most of my gear enchanted with agi again, but I just couldn't afford the 15 to gloves and 12 to boots yet, i'll get them asap.
So, if I don't really have mana problems shouldn't I always be weaving arcane/multi as much as possible while rapid fire is up since they do more damage per shot than steady?
I'm still kinda confused why my steady:auto is so far off, I weave a steady after every normal shot rotation.
I do have another question - I sometimes have a problem with my manual weaving, There were 3 times on that raid where I was in my rotation: steady, auto, steady arcane auto, steady.....
I shot a multi after that last steady and it hesitated for a second and shot after my auto went off, after that I shot an arcane just to fill in the blank spot. Is there any way to fix this? Should I get quarts so it compensates for the lag? Does anyone have any knowledge of the quarts autoshot timer?
Double post.
Vasilii, did you log out in your raiding gear or is that just your PVP gear?
I've decided to stop trying to get max agi (all of my gear is just straight the best agi I can get). I'm trying to compile a list outside of PvP items (I might get an arena team but pvp isn't my main thing in WoW for the time being).
Vasilii, did you log out in your raiding gear or is that just your PVP gear?
I've decided to stop trying to get max agi (all of my gear is just straight the best agi I can get). I'm trying to compile a list outside of PvP items (I might get an arena team but pvp isn't my main thing in WoW for the time being).
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Originally Posted by Kope
Thanks for the help, I'm still working on a few issues.
Latest WWS: Wow Web Stats Is it possible to see a WWS report of a survival hunter w/o any haste? I Seem to be noticing a little problem from above posters. My steadyshot isn't even close to my autoshot hits. I tend to have 3 or 4 rapid fires on any given boss fight. After I pop rapid fire I tend to weave multi/steady/arcane every time I can. This throws off my steady/auto percentage for every fight. Am I doing this wrong or is it right? |
1) Fully manual?
2) Macro for the steady-auto with manually weaving in the arcane and multishot? If so, what macro do you use?
3) Macro for the full rotation? If so, what macro do you use?
For unhasted 1:5 rotation using both arcane shot and multishot, you should see the following shot ratios under ideal situations (same target for long duration and no moving):
Autoshot 40%
Steady Shot 40%
Arcane Shot 10%
Multishot 10%
The rotation should look like steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-multishot-auto-steady-auto, with a variation of it having the arcane and multi switched.
While under Rapid Fire, if you just use a 1:1 rotation, the ratios should be:
Autoshot 50%
Steady Shot 50%
Arcane Shot 0%
Multishot 0%
If you are trying to weave in the other specials during Rapid Fire to take advantage of some slack areas, per the best rotation that I discovered, the ratios should be:
Autoshot 42%
Steady Shot 42%
Arcane Shot 12%
Multishot 6%
This is a 17 shot cycle with performing a 1:1 rotation 7 times with inserting arcanes after the 1st and 5th steadys and multishot after the 3rd.
From your WWS, I can see the following with modifications to include misses:
Autoshot 654 44.6%
Steady Shot 481 32.3%
Arcane Shot 230 15.7%
Multishot 102 7.0%
= 1467
Ignored the rest of the attacks since they were special cases.
Now this data is from your whole run, which included 4 SSC bosses and their trash. Thus, this data is a little hard to analyze as a whole, but it seems okay, although the number of steady shots is a little low. Should expect more autos than steadys since moving a lot and switching between trash targets. With a lot of trash, should expect more arcanes than typical for steady since restarting rotation a lot as switch targets and move. Should expect less multis since restarting rotation a lot with switching targets and due to not using multishot near CC targets. Nothing wrong jumps out here, except that the percent of steady seems a little low, since there are many possible explanations for the ratios.
To get a better feel, let's look at a boss fight where you tend to be on the same target with less moving so you should be seeing more ideal results. Unfortunately, your log does not include Morogrim, which would probably provide the best results since except for when watery graved, you should be on the boss the whole time (it does appear though that you targeted the adds on a few occasions). I assume that the best choice to look at from your log is Hydross since you were probably on the boss the whole time with only hitting the adds with multishot when fired and that the only breaks in the DPS is during the transitions between frost and nature phases, and your log seems to indicate that this is generally true.
The ratios from Hydross, with adding in misses and removing the 3 autos and 2 arcanes from what appears to be pulling the adds before starting to allow the tanks to build rage, are:
Autoshot 55 42.6% -> 52 (should be)
Steady Shot 37 28.7% -> 52
Arcane Shot 18 14.0% -> 13
Multishot 19 14.7% -> 13
= 129
There were 3 Rapid Fires during this fight.
This is definitely a little odd. The fact that there were 3 extra autoshots is not a big deal and can be explained by moving and getting off and extra auto when doing so and stopping the rotation. The big concerns is that you are missing over 12% of your steady shots and that your other specials are high.
Looking at your detailed shot log, the reason for the lack of steady shots became readily apparent. For the most part you are not really doing a 1:5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot. You are mostly doing a 1:1 rotation with using arcane shots and multishots in place of steady shots usually when they are used. This can be seen in the log looking something like steady-auto-arcane-auto-steady-auto-multi-auto-steady-auto-etc.
For a 1:5 rotation, the arcane shots and steady shots should always follow a steady shot and not replace them. Now there are a few situations where this does happen, but mostly you are doing a 1:1 throughout. For a true 1:1, you should only have 55 specials, but you have 74, which is 19 extras (its actually less than this since you clipped a few autos too, which is bound to happen). These occur several times when you do actually do an arcane or a multishot after a steady, but many of these occur from restarting the rotation with a special and inserting specials in the wrong locations (e.g. multishot followed by an arcane clipping your autoshot).
Can't give you more advice without knowing how you do your rotation. I have used several macros myself. The original one I used advertised as a 1:5 but was actually a 1:1 like what you are doing. I had a fixed 1:5 macro that I used for a while (and still do when can't afford to concentrate as much on the weaving since need more SA), but it doesn't scale as well under haste. Hence, per many other folks suggestions, I usually use a manual rotation with casting the arcanes and multi over the last 3rd of the steady.
Hope this helps.
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Originally Posted by Kope
Double post.
Vasilii, did you log out in your raiding gear or is that just your PVP gear? I've decided to stop trying to get max agi (all of my gear is just straight the best agi I can get). I'm trying to compile a list outside of PvP items (I might get an arena team but pvp isn't my main thing in WoW for the time being). |
But I cannot stress enough the importance of getting an arena team even if you jump in a random 5v5 every week for 10 games, start building up points because arena gear is easy to get and in most cases will be better than anything you can pick up until very high levels of progression.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
@ Whitefyst:
Thank you very much, that explanation does help.
I do a completely manual shot rotation. I have 2 shot macros. 1- Rapid/berzerking. 2- Steady/trinket. Other than that it's completely manual clicking.
On Hydross I do have to target the adds until they're down, it's just how my guild wants me to do it. Maybe next time I'll try to be on the boss more to get a better rot down, targeting the adds manually every time does mess with my rot.
I'm basically trying to convince my guild how viable survival is atm which is why I'm trying to get everything down as much as possible. I'm the only survival hunter in my guild (we have 1 MM hunter, all the rest are BM).
I'm trying to do a complete 1:5 rotation but I do clip autoshot sometimes. I got my pet in a lot more fights this time as per the suggestions on this board and it did help quite a bit when he was alive.
@Vasilii
Thanks, I'll take a look at it. I'm going to try to get an arena team together and see what other gear I can get in heroics, KZ, ZA etc...
A couple of the main upgrades i want right now are the 2 1handers in ZA, they seem like they would maximize DPS more than any other weapon(s).
Thank you very much, that explanation does help.
I do a completely manual shot rotation. I have 2 shot macros. 1- Rapid/berzerking. 2- Steady/trinket. Other than that it's completely manual clicking.
On Hydross I do have to target the adds until they're down, it's just how my guild wants me to do it. Maybe next time I'll try to be on the boss more to get a better rot down, targeting the adds manually every time does mess with my rot.
I'm basically trying to convince my guild how viable survival is atm which is why I'm trying to get everything down as much as possible. I'm the only survival hunter in my guild (we have 1 MM hunter, all the rest are BM).
I'm trying to do a complete 1:5 rotation but I do clip autoshot sometimes. I got my pet in a lot more fights this time as per the suggestions on this board and it did help quite a bit when he was alive.
@Vasilii
Thanks, I'll take a look at it. I'm going to try to get an arena team together and see what other gear I can get in heroics, KZ, ZA etc...
A couple of the main upgrades i want right now are the 2 1handers in ZA, they seem like they would maximize DPS more than any other weapon(s).
Last edited by Kope : 02/20/08 at 4:27 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Weird, double posted.
Last edited by Leighlu : 02/21/08 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Double post
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kope
I do a completely manual shot rotation. I have 2 shot macros. 1- Rapid/berzerking. 2- Steady/trinket. Other than that it's completely manual clicking.
On Hydross I do have to target the adds until they're down, it's just how my guild wants me to do it. Maybe next time I'll try to be on the boss more to get a better rot down, targeting the adds manually every time does mess with my rot. I'm basically trying to convince my guild how viable survival is atm which is why I'm trying to get everything down as much as possible. I'm the only survival hunter in my guild (we have 1 MM hunter, all the rest are BM). Another quick question - Which is better for dps for leg enchants - the atk power/crit one or the stam/agi? |
Concerning whether to use the [Nethercobra Leg Armor] or [Nethercleft Leg Armor], there is not definitive answer. It depends. For me, using [Nethercobra Leg Armor] provides over 8 more personal DPS at a cost of about 3.7 AP average on EW proc. The current tipping point for me on which is better for total raid DPS contribution is whether there are 8 or more other physical DPS, including pets, in the raid. If less, then [Nethercobra Leg Armor] is superior. If more, then [Nethercleft Leg Armor] is surperior. With considering that it takes at least 8 other physical DPS to be on the same target to make [Nethercleft Leg Armor] superior and that [Nethercobra Leg Armor] is better at all other times, including split targets and when soloing or in 5 and 10 man instances, I have chosen to use [Nethercobra Leg Armor] although it hurts my average EW proc. Another factor is that if you are low on health, which you are not, [Nethercleft Leg Armor] is a good way to get an extra 500ish health, increase EW proc, and only lose a little DPS.
And Survival hunters are more than viable, when properly geared and raid buffed. A good Survival hunter can not only increase the DPS of all physical DPS in the raid on the same target by large amounts (about 100 DPS each when you get over 1200 raid buffed agility), but we can also put out competitive DPS that is in the top part of the raids.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/20/08 at 4:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kope
I'm basically trying to convince my guild how viable survival is atm which is why I'm trying to get everything down as much as possible. I'm the only survival hunter in my guild (we have 1 MM hunter, all the rest are BM). I'm going to try to get an arena team together and see what other gear I can get in heroics, KZ, ZA etc... A couple of the main upgrades i want right now are the 2 1handers in ZA, they seem like they would maximize DPS more than any other weapon(s). Another quick question - Which is better for dps for leg enchants - the atk power/crit one or the stam/agi? |
2. Arena gear is quite tasty. WELL worth the hour or so it takes to knock out 10 matches a week. You and I are at very similar points in raid progression, and I would be hard-pressed to find items better for SV build than the S3 Helm and S2 shoulders. Great personal dps and plenty of Agility for EW.
3. On a whim, I put together a ZA run last week, without really having looked at the loot tables. I got Rage off of the second timed chest, very nice fist weapon. The dagger looks pretty too. Got to love +20 enchants.
4. Nethercobra (AP/crit) is best. I have one in the bank set aside for either VR greaves (if they ever drop) or the 2.4 badge pants. The legs I'm wearing now have the Nethercleft on them, and other than burning 400 gold for the armor kit, I'd switch it out for the added dps.
If you have your mana consumption covered, switching from Efficiency to Imp Hunters Mark makes us even more impressive. For me it's the jump from providing 287 attack power to 397...it's a very impressive contribution to the raid.
We all have to deal with the huntard stigma. We have to do our research, and find a way to effectively convey that information to the people who do the invites.
Hope this helps.
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Originally Posted by Leighlu
2. Arena gear is quite tasty. WELL worth the hour or so it takes to knock out 10 matches a week. You and I are at very similar points in raid progression, and I would be hard-pressed to find items better for SV build than the S3 Helm and S2 shoulders. Great personal dps and plenty of Agility for EW.
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When Season 3 came out, I was actually using the S3 helm, gloves, and chest, along with my previously purchased s2 shoulders and legs. I also got the vindicator boots and bracers (passed on the belt since the belt I had is better). I used all but the legs, since I already had my T5 legs, in my PvE gear.
We have just killed Kael for the 2nd time last night and are working on 3rd Hyjal boss, so I have gotten some upgrades since then to replace a lot of the PvP gear. But I am still wearing the S3 helm and S2 shoulders as Leighlu stated and am also stil wearing the vindicator bracers. For a Survival hunter, nothing is better in T5 zones than those 3 items. Upgrades exist for the other PvP pieces though, so if you (Kope) need to prioritize which PvP pieces to get, I would get those for how long they will last. However, since you have the T5 shoulders already but blue chest, you may want to upgrade your chest instead if you do not get the one off Hydross before then.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
I have been using this macro on live for quite some time:
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast Kill Command /castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
The problem you are having on PTR may be what they are talking in the 2.4 PTR known Issues List thread:
| Using an instant ability after Steady Shot can lock out the use of Auto Shot. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
Thank you Sore, I got this macro from you and have been telling everyone about it. It really does work absolutely great.
The problem you are having on PTR may be what they are talking in the 2.4 PTR known Issues List thread: It doesn't quite sound the same, but it could be since they usually have no idea how our DPS macros even work. |
I just wanted to post this here to see if anyone else was seeing the same problem, or could repeat the problem, on the PTR. Just to make sure im not crazy.
Last edited by Sore82 : 02/21/08 at 1:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Use that macro and many times on the 2nd steady shot you will have plenty of time to lay an Arcane or Multi out of it before it goes off. You choose to shoot more Steady Shots then Auto Shots with this macro but the DPS simply is better. |
So my question is: what exactly do you mean by "on the 2nd steady shot"? Do you mean in place of the second steady shot use arcane/multi? Or do you mean right after the 2nd steady shot? Or right after the auto shot? An illustration would be:
Steady Arcane Auto Steady Multi Auto Steady Steady Auto, etc.
Steady Steady Multi Auto Steady Steady Arcane Auto etc.
Steady Steady Auto Arcane Steady... Multi auto?
Another question would be, is it even worth casting multi shot without points in barrage? I notice my arcane shot is actually doing more damage than Multi. But I don't want to put points into Improved Arcane, so...
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Yea, I saw the bug report about it. It doesnt sound the same at all...but I suppose it could be related. I made a post about it on the boards there just to make sure. The problem isnt with Auto Shot, its with, what seems like, Arcane/Multi Shot taking presidence over Steady Shot even when it is mid cast. This doesent happen on Live with the macro...and I have tried editing the macro in various parts to try and fix it, but have had no luck.
I just wanted to post this here to see if anyone else was seeing the same problem, or could repeat the problem, on the PTR. Just to make sure im not crazy. lol |
Had a brief sunwell raid on PTR before it crashed and we called it, was definitly seeing something funny and this is the macro I was trying to use also,
Taz
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Originally Posted by Namarus
Try this in your macro.
#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /tar [exists, nodead, harm]; pettarget /castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command, Lightning Breath /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
Here's a question to theorycraft. In an attempt to try and find more mana for Kaz'rogal, we had our first try on him last night with 24 people and got to 4% so it's probably not an issue. But it got me thinking about combat experience for the folks that are going hybrid to get RWS. I am currently 0/26/35 with 1 point in RWS but got me thinking if CE would be worthwhile? Based on Cheeky's my total DPS is 1260 with 1088 agi full buffed, if I switch to CE my personal dps goes down to 1256 but I gain 11 agi which should be around 6 raid dps and gain 130 mana.
I'm just wondering if anyone has given CE a new look as agi numbers get higher?
I'm just wondering if anyone has given CE a new look as agi numbers get higher?
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Here's a question to theorycraft. In an attempt to try and find more mana for Kaz'rogal, we had our first try on him last night with 24 people and got to 4% so it's probably not an issue. But it got me thinking about combat experience for the folks that are going hybrid to get RWS. I am currently 0/26/35 with 1 point in RWS but got me thinking if CE would be worthwhile? Based on Cheeky's my total DPS is 1260 with 1088 agi full buffed, if I switch to CE my personal dps goes down to 1256 but I gain 11 agi which should be around 6 raid dps and gain 130 mana.
I'm just wondering if anyone has given CE a new look as agi numbers get higher? |
This is consistent with what I have found using my gear in cheeky's spreadsheet as well.
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Here's a question to theorycraft. In an attempt to try and find more mana for Kaz'rogal, we had our first try on him last night with 24 people and got to 4% so it's probably not an issue. But it got me thinking about combat experience for the folks that are going hybrid to get RWS. I am currently 0/26/35 with 1 point in RWS but got me thinking if CE would be worthwhile? Based on Cheeky's my total DPS is 1260 with 1088 agi full buffed, if I switch to CE my personal dps goes down to 1256 but I gain 11 agi which should be around 6 raid dps and gain 130 mana.
I'm just wondering if anyone has given CE a new look as agi numbers get higher? |
However, for that fight in particular, your best bet is to pick up two 1-handers, enchant them with +30 int. I use a macro to switch between my halberd, and the dual wield option whenever I use hawk and viper. You can then put mana oils on the weapons, and as the fight progresses, and your pots go on cooldown, you are able to switch and get mana back.
You can also just put on some shadow resist gear, and the fight becomes trivial.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
I used to use CE just to boost agility up when my agility wasn't as decent as it is now.
However, for that fight in particular, your best bet is to pick up two 1-handers, enchant them with +30 int. I use a macro to switch between my halberd, and the dual wield option whenever I use hawk and viper. You can then put mana oils on the weapons, and as the fight progresses, and your pots go on cooldown, you are able to switch and get mana back. You can also just put on some shadow resist gear, and the fight becomes trivial. |
+60 int is really 66 int weith BoK and equates to 990 mana, which can help your mana situation a lot.
However, you are giving up +20 agi enchants to each weapon, which is important to our personal DPS, overall raid DPS contribution, and our crit for all of our abilities that proc from it like TotH and MT and crit trinkets.
That 40 agi is 50.6 agi with LR and BoK. This is at least 50.6 AP, 1.26% crit, and 12.6 AP on EW proc. That is a huge loss.
My preference would be to keep the +40 agi enchants to help get the target down faster so that mana is less of a concern.
If you are having mana problems during that fight, there are many ways around it, some in your control or not:
- use mana oils
- use mageblood pots
- be in a group with a shadow priest
- be in a group with a shaman with mana spring
- chain mana pots
- have a ret pally in the raid with judgement
- use AoV
- drop to a rotation that uses less mana when low
- etc
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Here's a question to theorycraft. In an attempt to try and find more mana for Kaz'rogal, we had our first try on him last night with 24 people and got to 4% so it's probably not an issue. But it got me thinking about combat experience for the folks that are going hybrid to get RWS. I am currently 0/26/35 with 1 point in RWS but got me thinking if CE would be worthwhile? Based on Cheeky's my total DPS is 1260 with 1088 agi full buffed, if I switch to CE my personal dps goes down to 1256 but I gain 11 agi which should be around 6 raid dps and gain 130 mana. I'm just wondering if anyone has given CE a new look as agi numbers get higher? |
Just wearing BT Trinket and Having MOTW + Shadow Resistance buffed made me resist 50% of the Marks as well as the damage from the bomb, when the mark makes you OOM.
Get some Fel Mana Potions as well and you will be fine
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
If you are having mana problems during that fight, there are many ways around it, some in your control or not:
- use mana oils - use mageblood pots - be in a group with a shadow priest - be in a group with a shaman with mana spring - chain mana pots - have a ret pally in the raid with judgement - use AoV - drop to a rotation that uses less mana when low - etc |
The bits I have put in bold. This is rubbish advice. 90% of the time if your not the raid leader you have no control over who is going to be in your party or raid for that matter. This is about advice that you can control. Finally if your going to use a lower mana rotation, then your doing less damage anyway hence the small amount of dps lost having +30 int enchants on your weapons for 20-30s is about the same. However, as a survival hunter you want to keep firing out as many shots as you can to keep expose weakness up.
Kazrogal is just one of those fights that you are going to be very low on mana for a good portion of the fight. You dont need to be in a group with a shadow priest or a shaman...if you get one, great, but you dont NEED it. The 1 thing I find the most helpful for that fight is keeping on AoV. Thats it. The fight should not last that long...if you are chaining mana pots when they are up, using oils, have Wisdom on you, using AoV...then you are doing everything you can. 60int isnt going to do anything for you for that fight if you get the drain 2x in a row. You will still be out of mana and will only be regening it back slightly faster. That is the one fight where I keep AoV up 90% of the time...only time its not up is in the very beginning. Once I get hit with teh first drain, I switch to AoV and keep it on for the rest of the time.
Make sure you are using your pet (easy fight to keep it alive in). And just go all out. If you run out of mana...do auto-shots until you have enough back to do a steady-shot or arcane shot. It might take a little getting used to, but you dont really need to do anything special for the fight (I dont even wear any Shadow gear anymore).
Make sure you are using your pet (easy fight to keep it alive in). And just go all out. If you run out of mana...do auto-shots until you have enough back to do a steady-shot or arcane shot. It might take a little getting used to, but you dont really need to do anything special for the fight (I dont even wear any Shadow gear anymore).
If you PVP you likely have 2 one handers with +30 intel that you can swap in for this fight only. That's what I do and it really does make quite a difference.
I'm so lost here.....I just plugged BBL vs everything into the spreadsheet and it wins as SV. Is this for real?
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
If you PVP you likely have 2 one handers with +30 intel that you can swap in for this fight only. That's what I do and it really does make quite a difference.
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The point of the fight is to survive to gives the raid and the npcs your expose weakness buff.
Your comments Sore82 about getting low on mana and using autoshot are ill informed.
| Make sure you are using your pet (easy fight to keep it alive in). And just go all out. If you run out of mana...do auto-shots until you have enough back to do a steady-shot or arcane shot. It might take a little getting used to, but you dont really need to do anything special for the fight (I dont even wear any Shadow gear anymore). |
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I'm so lost here.....I just plugged BBL vs everything into the spreadsheet and it wins as SV. Is this for real?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Namarus
What you say is true, but the point is to survive the fight. So the +60 int during points where you are running low on mana will actually accelerate the rate at which you gain mana back.
The bits I have put in bold. This is rubbish advice. 90% of the time if your not the raid leader you have no control over who is going to be in your party or raid for that matter. This is about advice that you can control. Finally if your going to use a lower mana rotation, then your doing less damage anyway hence the small amount of dps lost having +30 int enchants on your weapons for 20-30s is about the same. However, as a survival hunter you want to keep firing out as many shots as you can to keep expose weakness up. |
Concerning the bits in bold, my preface to the list was that some of these items are not in your control. However, I provided them since they are means by which a character can keep up their mana. Also, I never meant to apply that your method is wrong, just what my preference is.
Another thing to consider how much DPS loss occurs from the weapons themselves that are being switched to that have the +30 int. I already raid with 2 1-handers not only because I can use 2 mana oils but also because they currently provide me with the best DPS/EW proc. I agree that if I had another set of these weapons with +30 int instead of +20 agi, that they would be useful in some situations. However, this is not really practical. First, these best DPS/EW weapons I use to raid do not drop often and I cannot afford to spend the DKP to get two sets when that DKP should really be going to improve other slots. Now I could use my older 1-handers, but that results in a significant DPS loss in the weapons along with the DPS loss in the enchants.
For me, considering that I am usually in a group with a shaman to buff my DPS and EW proc as well as keep my mana up, having a second set of 1-handers with +30 int enchants for rare occasions in which they could help is not practical for me. However, it may be for others.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/22/08 at 2:14 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Well, this is new. Can someone tell me the difference between a cast and spam macro? I assume cast s you hit once and let it finish a rotation before pressing it again. Anyways, hand weave, spam, cast, 3:2, 1:1, etc. They all lost to BBL. I repeat. Is this for real?
Oh wait, spamming makes LK win by 7 dps. Still...is this for real?
Also, I've apparently forgotten how to spec SV> I've spent too much time racing meters and try to optimize both with a hybrid spec 0/29/32, but when I use it, it just feels so weak.
Oh wait, spamming makes LK win by 7 dps. Still...is this for real?
Also, I've apparently forgotten how to spec SV> I've spent too much time racing meters and try to optimize both with a hybrid spec 0/29/32, but when I use it, it just feels so weak.
Last edited by Wunlastri : 02/22/08 at 3:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
The point of the fight is to survive to gives the raid and the npcs your expose weakness buff.
Your comments Sore82 about getting low on mana and using autoshot are ill informed. If you are out of mana your blowing up your raid. |
The fight lasts like 2-3min...its not that long of a fight and it is not a great DPS fight for us because of the mana drain. You dont need to have mana to put up your EW buff either...just doing auto shots will do that. And if you have viper up, more often than not you will be able to do Steady/Auto Shot easily even if you start off at 0mana right after a complete mana drain.
You could make the same arguments for putting mana gear on as saying you should wear Shadow Resist gear...if you resist the drain, then you are not losing anything. My advice (after killing him for the past 8-9 months or so) is to wear your regular DPS gear, go all out, pop mana pots when you can and be smart about where you are standing when you get the debuff. The point is to end the fight as quickly as possible. People try and make this fight sound more complicated than it really is....its just about the easiest (and fastest) fight in all of MH.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Concerning the +60 int, in my initial response I had only accounted for the extra 1K mana, which that alone over a long fight doesn't do much and with the less damage being done may result in actually more mana being used to kill the boss. I had overlooked the fact that the extra int improves the rate that AoV regens mana. With that understanding, I now better appreciate the suggestion.
Concerning the bits in bold, my preface to the list was that some of these items are not in your control. However, I provided them since they are means by which a character can keep up their mana. Also, I never meant to apply that your method is wrong, just what my preference is. Another thing to consider how much DPS loss occurs from the weapons themselves that are being switched to that have the +30 int. I already raid with 2 1-handers not only because I can use 2 mana oils but also because they currently provide me with the best DPS/EW proc. I agree that if I had another set of these weapons with +30 int instead of +20 agi, that they would be useful in some situations. However, this is not really practical. First, these best DPS/EW weapons I use to raid do not drop often and I cannot afford to spend the DKP to get two sets when that DKP should really be going to improve other slots. Now I could use my older 1-handers, but that results in a significant DPS loss in the weapons along with the DPS loss in the enchants. For me, considering that I am usually in a group with a shaman to buff my DPS and EW proc as well as keep my mana up, having a second set of 1-handers with +30 int enchants for rare occasions in which they could help is not practical for me. However, it may be for others. |
Looking for some help as 5/20/36 specced. Armory is The World of Warcraft Armory
As a disclaimer, I realise that the questions I ask may be very well quite noob, so forgive me on this. I've been searching (perhaps not hard enough) for some answers but there doesn't seem to be any so I've come here to ask, and hopefully be able to dps better or something >_> If I've left out any needed information please tell me and I'll post it.
As a bit of background, my guild just downed Kael and Rage, so we're just started on HY/BT. I started raiding in 25mans only last December or so, which explains the weird gear. Previously I had only done Kara/heroics so most of my gear isn't from raids.
Firstly, I'd like to ask about which pants to use. Currently using Midnight Legguards as can be seen from armory, and although the stats are pretty nice it's rather lacking in Agility which is bad for me as Survival. I wasn't in rotation for T5 pants, and didn't have DKP for the VR ones when they dropped. I don't really want to use this until I get Bow-stitched/T6, so I had some other choices:
1) Skulker's Greaves
Just managed to get this, and I _think_ it's a upgrade due to more agility + ap, while only losing out on a bit of crit (~0.3% if i calculated correctly?)
2) S3. Less agility than the previous, but overall I think the stats on it are much better.
Basically my question is: is the extra agi from the 3 sockets in the Greaves extremely important, or is it a worthwhile sacrifice to take the S3 legs instead for superior stats? I haven't checked the amount of DPS I'd gain/lose from this, as I was trying to find a Windows version of Excel to open Cheeky's spreadsheet with (I use a Mac, and opening it on Excel for Mac doesn't seem to work properly.. or maybe it's just me)
Any other advice about my gear would be a help, such as what should be replaced etc.
Second question is about shot rotation. So far, I've only read that 3:2 is better than 1:1 at the expense of mana consumption, but does it beat 1.5:1 for Surv? I also don't think I have the required haste for 3:2, pre-hotfix I could get the 3:2 but after it was doing 2:1. Also, I'm playing with ~400 latency (playing from Singapore) so weaving Multis seems to clip Auto a lot... I've been using the /castsequence macro and weaving in arcane after steady when it's on CD, but I feel I'm lacking DPS. Although I'm usually in top 5 or so, it's only ~1k DPS with an early pet death on Solarian, which feels rather low considering most hunters at this level are doing close to 1.5k.
This is probably making me look like quite a bad player by now, and I'll just end this by saying that any help that can help me play and DPS better would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading.
As a disclaimer, I realise that the questions I ask may be very well quite noob, so forgive me on this. I've been searching (perhaps not hard enough) for some answers but there doesn't seem to be any so I've come here to ask, and hopefully be able to dps better or something >_> If I've left out any needed information please tell me and I'll post it.
As a bit of background, my guild just downed Kael and Rage, so we're just started on HY/BT. I started raiding in 25mans only last December or so, which explains the weird gear. Previously I had only done Kara/heroics so most of my gear isn't from raids.
Firstly, I'd like to ask about which pants to use. Currently using Midnight Legguards as can be seen from armory, and although the stats are pretty nice it's rather lacking in Agility which is bad for me as Survival. I wasn't in rotation for T5 pants, and didn't have DKP for the VR ones when they dropped. I don't really want to use this until I get Bow-stitched/T6, so I had some other choices:
1) Skulker's Greaves
Just managed to get this, and I _think_ it's a upgrade due to more agility + ap, while only losing out on a bit of crit (~0.3% if i calculated correctly?)
2) S3. Less agility than the previous, but overall I think the stats on it are much better.
Basically my question is: is the extra agi from the 3 sockets in the Greaves extremely important, or is it a worthwhile sacrifice to take the S3 legs instead for superior stats? I haven't checked the amount of DPS I'd gain/lose from this, as I was trying to find a Windows version of Excel to open Cheeky's spreadsheet with (I use a Mac, and opening it on Excel for Mac doesn't seem to work properly.. or maybe it's just me)
Any other advice about my gear would be a help, such as what should be replaced etc.
Second question is about shot rotation. So far, I've only read that 3:2 is better than 1:1 at the expense of mana consumption, but does it beat 1.5:1 for Surv? I also don't think I have the required haste for 3:2, pre-hotfix I could get the 3:2 but after it was doing 2:1. Also, I'm playing with ~400 latency (playing from Singapore) so weaving Multis seems to clip Auto a lot... I've been using the /castsequence macro and weaving in arcane after steady when it's on CD, but I feel I'm lacking DPS. Although I'm usually in top 5 or so, it's only ~1k DPS with an early pet death on Solarian, which feels rather low considering most hunters at this level are doing close to 1.5k.
This is probably making me look like quite a bad player by now, and I'll just end this by saying that any help that can help me play and DPS better would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading.
Yes I must agree that BM spec puts out the most dps..But since I hate the spec..I have came to go with a Hybrid spec of Survival and MM to out dps it.
Its hard to do but it does still require for your pet to stay alive to dps and of course a shot rotation macro to out dps a BM hunter.
Here's my spec to take a look for an example
The World of Warcraft Armory
Its hard to do but it does still require for your pet to stay alive to dps and of course a shot rotation macro to out dps a BM hunter.
Here's my spec to take a look for an example
The World of Warcraft Armory
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by akiha
Looking for some help as 5/20/36 specced. Armory is The World of Warcraft Armory
As a disclaimer, I realise that the questions I ask may be very well quite noob, so forgive me on this. I've been searching (perhaps not hard enough) for some answers but there doesn't seem to be any so I've come here to ask, and hopefully be able to dps better or something >_> If I've left out any needed information please tell me and I'll post it. As a bit of background, my guild just downed Kael and Rage, so we're just started on HY/BT. I started raiding in 25mans only last December or so, which explains the weird gear. Previously I had only done Kara/heroics so most of my gear isn't from raids. Firstly, I'd like to ask about which pants to use. Currently using Midnight Legguards as can be seen from armory, and although the stats are pretty nice it's rather lacking in Agility which is bad for me as Survival. I wasn't in rotation for T5 pants, and didn't have DKP for the VR ones when they dropped. I don't really want to use this until I get Bow-stitched/T6, so I had some other choices: 1) Skulker's Greaves Just managed to get this, and I _think_ it's a upgrade due to more agility + ap, while only losing out on a bit of crit (~0.3% if i calculated correctly?) 2) S3. Less agility than the previous, but overall I think the stats on it are much better. Basically my question is: is the extra agi from the 3 sockets in the Greaves extremely important, or is it a worthwhile sacrifice to take the S3 legs instead for superior stats? I haven't checked the amount of DPS I'd gain/lose from this, as I was trying to find a Windows version of Excel to open Cheeky's spreadsheet with (I use a Mac, and opening it on Excel for Mac doesn't seem to work properly.. or maybe it's just me) Any other advice about my gear would be a help, such as what should be replaced etc. Second question is about shot rotation. So far, I've only read that 3:2 is better than 1:1 at the expense of mana consumption, but does it beat 1.5:1 for Surv? I also don't think I have the required haste for 3:2, pre-hotfix I could get the 3:2 but after it was doing 2:1. Also, I'm playing with ~400 latency (playing from Singapore) so weaving Multis seems to clip Auto a lot... I've been using the /castsequence macro and weaving in arcane after steady when it's on CD, but I feel I'm lacking DPS. Although I'm usually in top 5 or so, it's only ~1k DPS with an early pet death on Solarian, which feels rather low considering most hunters at this level are doing close to 1.5k. This is probably making me look like quite a bad player by now, and I'll just end this by saying that any help that can help me play and DPS better would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading. |
Next, you need to max you +hit out first, and then go from there. +hit is pretty easy for us, as there are a lot of gear choices that we can easily obtain that have it and we dont need that much of it to get "maxed". Once there, you can focus on your other two important stats for Survival, which are of course Agility and Crit. Agility is the bread and butter of our build, and while a high Attack Power piece might drop or be available to you, unless it has agility on it, there is a very good chance that taking that piece will drop the overall Raid DPS since your EW will become weaker because of it. And while Agility and Crit anr very important to our build, you must also not forget that in order to DO DPS, you need mana. Dont be swayed by high agility/crit leather items at a HUGE loss of INT. Its a delicate balance between the two. I am not saying dont wear any leather items, just if you decided to wear them, make sure you are looking at INT also as a factor, and not just Agility/Crit gain.
What I did when TBC opened up and new gear was available to me, I went onto different web sites (wowhead or even Armory) and looked at what gear I wanted specifically, and then made a list. I not only had 1st choice options, but also 2nd choice (just in case the 1st choice is a long ways away or never drops). By doing this, I already knew before the item dropped if I wanted it or not. Its much easier to go over gear choices now, then when it drops and trying to figure it out then if it is an upgrade or not. There are a lot of different gear choices for almost every piece of armor for us out of BT/Hyjal...so I highly recommend making this list.
Next, when it comes to shot rotations, there are plenty in this thread to go through. There is no 1 "key" shot rotation that works for everyone. A lot of them are based on people gear and how they play or if they speced a little differently. Its really best to go over a few of them and see what works best for you. Personally I use:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
However this can be a very mana draining macro since it is using both Arcane and Multi Shot, and I also have points in Imp Arcane to make it not clip as much. Works well for me, but again, it would serve you best to brows this thread a little bit for others. Be cautious of using the BM macros. They has a Haste bonus from there spec and can also adjust to Haste gear a lot easier than us. The 1:1 shot rotation or the 3:2 rotations dont work nearly as good for us, unless for some reason you are stacking Haste (which again falls into the category of personal DPS vs Raid DPS through EW).
And last, dont be frustrated by doing less DPS than BM/Mars Hunters. If the BM/MM Hunters you are raiding with are smart and know how to play their spec properly, 9 times out of 10 they will out DPS you. Thats just how it works, especially in the "end game". However when you look at the DPS charts, add up how much attack power you are giving to EACH melee/pet/hunter in the raid. You may be 300-500 DPS less than the BM Hunter, but once you add up all the AP you ar giving to everyone, and then convert than into DPS...a lot of times you are contributing more DPS than them.
Last edited by Sore82 : 02/23/08 at 2:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
If you are having mana problems during that fight, there are many ways around it, some in your control or not:
- use mana oils - use mageblood pots - be in a group with a shadow priest - be in a group with a shaman with mana spring - chain mana pots - have a ret pally in the raid with judgement - use AoV - drop to a rotation that uses less mana when low - etc |
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Originally Posted by kultheel
Wear SR! If everyone wears SR, mana doesn't really start to become an issue (unlucky non-resist streaks aside) til he starts spamming the debuff. I guess it depends on where you are in progression as to how much crafted SR is floating around in your raid, but I certainly think wearing cloak and neck is well worth considering here. The only thing you can do wrong is go oom and die (or go oom, take a lot of shadow damage and drain healer mana). The debuff itself is binary but the damage from explosions is partially resistable - to the point where it can be worth waiting for a boom to pass to drop a pot, rather than dropping it right away.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
G’day,
first post here and native german speaking, ergo please be patient with me. *smiles*
I’ve been playing WoW now since last September. Started off as a BM and had quite a joyride. Two weeks ago I started raiding seriously, first TK/SSC and now BT/MH. Ergo I skilled to Survival.
I must admit, this build is very challenging to play but listening to the feedback from my fellow guild members, I’m gaining experience fast and my game play is ok. Own dps is still very low though due to my bad rotation.
Since we already have two BM Hunters for damage (oh I will get them sooner or later, stupid rotation!) I was thinking about going full blown support.
First of all, heres my build
Got a wolf as a pet because of howl.
My current Build: Survival
Possible future Build: Hybrid
Reason:
- More agility and ergo more raid dps.
- iHM since no other Hunter has it and more AP for the raid
(Nice side effect is, I wont have haste effect from iAotH which might throw my rotation off.)
Items-wise I’ll try to obtain:
- Hourglass from CoT2
- Tsunami Trinket
- Belt hopefully Black Belt of the Eagle
That should do the trick for a while.
What do you guys think? is 2/3 in TotH and EW enough with my crit rating?
And what gears should be changed still?
Regards, Patrick
first post here and native german speaking, ergo please be patient with me. *smiles*
I’ve been playing WoW now since last September. Started off as a BM and had quite a joyride. Two weeks ago I started raiding seriously, first TK/SSC and now BT/MH. Ergo I skilled to Survival.
I must admit, this build is very challenging to play but listening to the feedback from my fellow guild members, I’m gaining experience fast and my game play is ok. Own dps is still very low though due to my bad rotation.
Since we already have two BM Hunters for damage (oh I will get them sooner or later, stupid rotation!) I was thinking about going full blown support.
First of all, heres my build
Got a wolf as a pet because of howl.
My current Build: Survival
Possible future Build: Hybrid
Reason:
- More agility and ergo more raid dps.
- iHM since no other Hunter has it and more AP for the raid
(Nice side effect is, I wont have haste effect from iAotH which might throw my rotation off.)
Items-wise I’ll try to obtain:
- Hourglass from CoT2
- Tsunami Trinket
- Belt hopefully Black Belt of the Eagle
That should do the trick for a while.
What do you guys think? is 2/3 in TotH and EW enough with my crit rating?
And what gears should be changed still?
Regards, Patrick
Last edited by Chanii : 02/25/08 at 10:49 AM.
IMO, the dps gain from IAotH is completely dependent on your shot rotation. If haste throws you off, or if it doesnt add much value given your rotation, then those points are better spent in master tactician. The points in combat experience are better spent on TotH or EW vs the 2% gain. For Imp hunters mark, I would make a BM hunter pick it up unless you consistently get a shadow priest in your group.
Playing survival you want to gear and spec such that you do very respectable personal DPS with the added benefit of giving a bunch of atk power to the raid. You are in control of how well you perform and how much you show up to raids. You cant guarantee melee person X will show up, live through the encounter or play his class with enough skill to turn a few extra points of atk power into the the theorycrafted maximum possible dps over the course of a fight. Where it is close do what is right for you with a preference towards agility items because they scale well for you and the raid.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Chanii
G’day,
first post here and native german speaking, ergo please be patient with me. *smiles* I’ve been playing WoW now since last September. Started off as a BM and had quite a joyride. Two weeks ago I started raiding seriously, first TK/SSC and now BT/MH. Ergo I skilled to Survival. I must admit, this build is very challenging to play but listening to the feedback from my fellow guild members, I’m gaining experience fast and my game play is ok. Own dps is still very low though due to my bad rotation. Since we already have two BM Hunters for damage (oh I will get them sooner or later, stupid rotation!) I was thinking about going full blown support. |
Last edited by ugla : 02/25/08 at 11:10 AM.
QuiggyB, ugla, thank you for the reply.
QuiggyB, great post there!
My idea was that I might as well go all-the-way Survival instead of merely 95%. I wont loose efficiency actually since 5 points from BM wanders into iHM.
But I think the best bet is the "trial and error" path.
QuiggyB, great post there!
My idea was that I might as well go all-the-way Survival instead of merely 95%. I wont loose efficiency actually since 5 points from BM wanders into iHM.
But I think the best bet is the "trial and error" path.
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Originally Posted by Chanii
QuiggyB, ugla, thank you for the reply.
QuiggyB, great post there! My idea was that I might as well go all-the-way Survival instead of merely 95%. I wont loose efficiency actually since 5 points from BM wanders into iHM. But I think the best bet is the "trial and error" path. |
Last stupid question of the day, please bear with me.
I havent found a "worthy" page/link/thread to calculations concerning rap, crit, etc.
For example:
x crit and y agi will produce how much "real" crit?
Regards, Patrick
I havent found a "worthy" page/link/thread to calculations concerning rap, crit, etc.
For example:
x crit and y agi will produce how much "real" crit?
Regards, Patrick
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
If you are having mana problems during that fight, there are many ways around it, some in your control or not:
- use mana oils - use mageblood pots - be in a group with a shadow priest - be in a group with a shaman with mana spring - chain mana pots - have a ret pally in the raid with judgement - use AoV - drop to a rotation that uses less mana when low - etc |
[Mark of Conquest]
[Black Grasp of the Destroyer]
I use both of these on this fight and they help a lot.
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Originally Posted by Chanii
What do you guys think? is 2/3 in TotH and EW enough with my crit rating?
And what gears should be changed still? Regards, Patrick |
1) If you really want to buff the raid, put 3/3 in EW. I realize that the last point may only increase your uptime in ideal situations by about 10%, but that 10% is a huge amount when your EW proc is nearing 300 AP. That equates to about 30 AP per physical DPS (including self) in the raid for a raid DPS total of 72 DPS assuming 0.3 conversion and 8 physical DPS. Furthermore, actual fights are never ideal with moving. interruptions, switching targets, unideal rotation, etc. In these situations, the 3rd points makes even a larger difference. I would move one of the points from CE into this since it definitely provides higher DPS and possibly even more personal DPS.
2) Would suggest getting 5/5 MT, this increased crit rate not only greatly helps your own personal DPS simply from criting more, but it also helps it from proc talents that depend on crit more, such as TotH, EW, and your crit trinket. Obviously, raid DPS improves too from better EW. I would suggest moving either the 5 points in IHM (if a BM in the raid has it) or Efficiency into it. I have the 5/5 in IHM instead of a BM since I more consistently attend raids over our BMs. If you lose the efficiency and dont have a SP or shammy in your group or a ret pally in the riad, then prepare to use mana oils and use pots.
With these changes, you can't put the rank in CE anymore. Suggest putting it into Readiness for the utility it provides or in 3/3 TotH if want the mana.
These are my suggestions, but please check them out for yourself in Cheeky's spreadsheet against what you are planning to do to make sure that the suggestion is an improvement.
Another item to note is that since you now have Surefooted, you no longer need 145 hit rating. You only need 95 hit rating. So feel free to drop around 30 points of hit rating gear for better DPS gear. Some changes you can make along these lines for easily obtainable gear include:
- Drop [Worgen Claw Necklace] for [Necklace of the Deep] crafted by JCs (-13 hit)
- Drop [Drape of the Dark Reavers] for [Blood Knight War Cloak] bought with BoJs (-17 hit)
- Replace [Ring of a Thousand Marks] for a ring with some agility on it with equal or better DPS (-19 hit)
- Replace [Sonic Spear] with any of the various 2Hs or 1H combos that provide both more DPS and agility (-24) hit
Suggest keeping your hit gear around for swapping pieces in and out as appropriate.
Another suggestion that can help both personal DPS and EW proc is regemming.
- Suggest a different meta gem - the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - it is a huge boost over your current meta
- With the above meta, you only need 2 blues and yellow gems. You already have the right number of blues, but you have 5 yellows with all +8 crit. As Survival spec (and really all hunters), you are generally better off putting the +8/+10 agi gems in the 3 extras. The agility scales with LR and BoK, while crit does not. +8 agi is really 10.12 raid buffed for 10.12 AP, about 2.5 AP on EW proc, 0.25% crit, 20.24 armor, and 0.40% dodge, which is much better than 0.36% crit. Would definitely replace the yellow gem in your gloves and also the 2 in your chest. Check out the differences in Cheeky's spreadsheet for DPS and EW proc to see the improvements.
I'm rather confused by this statement.
I was under the assumption that all physical dps got 300 AP, and it was not divided among them.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
... I realize that the last point may only increase your uptime in ideal situations by about 10%, but that 10% is a huge amount when your EW proc is nearing 300 AP. That equates to about 30 AP per physical DPS (including self) in the raid for a raid DPS total of 72 DPS assuming 0.3 conversion and 8 physical DPS.
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|
Originally Posted by Namarus
I'm rather confused by this statement.
Originally Posted by Whitefyst ... I realize that the last point may only increase your uptime in ideal situations by about 10%, but that 10% is a huge amount when your EW proc is nearing 300 AP. That equates to about 30 AP per physical DPS (including self) in the raid for a raid DPS total of 72 DPS assuming 0.3 conversion and 8 physical DPS. I was under the assumption that all physical dps got 300 AP, and it was not divided among them. |
If your expose weakness is up for 10% less TIME due to a lower crit rate, it is effectively lessened by 10%, thus the 30AP Whytefyst was talking about.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
So I completely misread something.
Wish these forums had a delete button...
Wish these forums had a delete button...
Last edited by ugla : 02/25/08 at 10:19 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I have tried to make a new spam macro after reading of the 3:2 rotation.
I'm not sure what I do wrong, but this will give me a 4:2 rotation and on rapid fire its just a 1:1 rotation. What am I doing wrong here?
The best I have come around is this:
But I think I have read somewhere it is better to do a 3:2 than weave in Arcane. My measures on Dr. Boomm tells me different though?
Btw: Have 2.52 auto shot speed and 4/5 IAotH but planning to go 0/20/41 when I get my macro's right
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
The best I have come around is this:
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Btw: Have 2.52 auto shot speed and 4/5 IAotH but planning to go 0/20/41 when I get my macro's right
Last edited by Stub : 02/26/08 at 5:00 AM.
There is no good reliable way to do 3:2 rotation now, it all depends on you latency, servers load and from how much you pray to gods of WoW ...
I still continue to use old and improved 1:1.5 (2.3.2 patch was good for this rotation too!) that gives exactly computable and reliable DPS output.
I still continue to use old and improved 1:1.5 (2.3.2 patch was good for this rotation too!) that gives exactly computable and reliable DPS output.
I have been trying the
compareded to
I hardly gain any damage but use more mana. I did it all with manual weaving the Arcane.
I think you need to have a 3.0 weapon before you gaine anything from it. Could that be right ?
Auto, Steady, Steady, Auto, Steady, Arcane
Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Steady.
I think you need to have a 3.0 weapon before you gaine anything from it. Could that be right ?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
New T6 gear.
So, i have been racking my brains trying to figure something out.
When 2.4 goes live, there will be the 3 new bits of T6, at the moment i have 4/5 T5 and the Bow-stitched Leggings from Azgalor, bow of Archi ect, along with other BT / MH random stuff.
I have T6 gloves in the bank, but it is not worth using them yet, as it will cost me my 4 set bonus from T5.
I'm using an "Auto, Steady, Steady" rotation, surv spec, and it is working great, mana wise and DPS wise. ( never go oom, even in the tank group )
My question is this...
Has anyone thought about the new T6 gear having so much crit rating on it?
What i mean is, i can't help thinking that when 2.4 goes live ( my guild will be doing the 1st 3 bosses, ideally quite quickly ) i will probably end up going for 4/5 T5 ( head / gloves / chest and shoulders ) and then 4/8 T6 ( bracer / boots / belt and legs )
Obviously i am thinking this because of the 2 x 4 set bonus 5% crit + 10% dmg from Steady. Which seeing as my rotation is 66% steady them 2 bonuses will be a major boost to my dps ( lol not to mention the legendary bow :P .. but who knows how far away that is )
There is of course the stats difference to consider, between the 4 bits of T5 i am thinking of keeping, and the 4 bits of T6 i am thinking of not using.
On the whole the difference seems to be a swap on 2 bits ( gloves and shoulders ) from Hit to crit + a very small stat increase from T6 gloves and a moderate stat increase from T6 shoulder. And a very small stat increase on ( head and legs, which is mostly a stam increase ) and of course the 2 sockets i lose from the legs.
What i can't seem to do is to work out if my thinking is just plain crazy!.. or if it actually will benefit my overall DPS
So has anyone done, or can anyone do the maths on this?
Or better yet, has anyone done any actual live tests? Tho i think not, with the few guilds that have killed the 1st 3 bosses in Sunwell, and the state of the PTR at the moment slowing others down.
I thank you so much in advance, for any help anyone can give me on this.
Tho my guild mates might not thank you, if you show that full T6 with bow-stitched legs or whatever combo is better, and i stop passing on all the T6 :P
peace love n unity.
When 2.4 goes live, there will be the 3 new bits of T6, at the moment i have 4/5 T5 and the Bow-stitched Leggings from Azgalor, bow of Archi ect, along with other BT / MH random stuff.
I have T6 gloves in the bank, but it is not worth using them yet, as it will cost me my 4 set bonus from T5.
I'm using an "Auto, Steady, Steady" rotation, surv spec, and it is working great, mana wise and DPS wise. ( never go oom, even in the tank group )
My question is this...
Has anyone thought about the new T6 gear having so much crit rating on it?
What i mean is, i can't help thinking that when 2.4 goes live ( my guild will be doing the 1st 3 bosses, ideally quite quickly ) i will probably end up going for 4/5 T5 ( head / gloves / chest and shoulders ) and then 4/8 T6 ( bracer / boots / belt and legs )
Obviously i am thinking this because of the 2 x 4 set bonus 5% crit + 10% dmg from Steady. Which seeing as my rotation is 66% steady them 2 bonuses will be a major boost to my dps ( lol not to mention the legendary bow :P .. but who knows how far away that is )
There is of course the stats difference to consider, between the 4 bits of T5 i am thinking of keeping, and the 4 bits of T6 i am thinking of not using.
On the whole the difference seems to be a swap on 2 bits ( gloves and shoulders ) from Hit to crit + a very small stat increase from T6 gloves and a moderate stat increase from T6 shoulder. And a very small stat increase on ( head and legs, which is mostly a stam increase ) and of course the 2 sockets i lose from the legs.
What i can't seem to do is to work out if my thinking is just plain crazy!.. or if it actually will benefit my overall DPS
So has anyone done, or can anyone do the maths on this?
Or better yet, has anyone done any actual live tests? Tho i think not, with the few guilds that have killed the 1st 3 bosses in Sunwell, and the state of the PTR at the moment slowing others down.
I thank you so much in advance, for any help anyone can give me on this.
Tho my guild mates might not thank you, if you show that full T6 with bow-stitched legs or whatever combo is better, and i stop passing on all the T6 :P
peace love n unity.
Last edited by nosleep : 02/26/08 at 9:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by nosleep
When 2.4 goes live, there will be the 3 new bits of T6, at the moment i have 4/5 T5 and the Bow-stitched Leggings from Azgalor, bow of Archi ect, along with other BT / MH random stuff.
I have T6 gloves in the bank, but it is not worth using them yet, as it will cost me my 4 set bonus from T5. Tho my guild mates might not thank you, if you show that full T6 with bow-stitched legs or whatever combo is better, and i stop passing on all the T6 :P peace love n unity. |
However, I did do an analysis a while back on whether 4 T5 or 4 T6 is better for a Survival hunter. I did this analysis with a 1:1.5 rotation and not a 3:2, but the 4 T6 set is by far much better than the 4 T5. At our high crit rates, especially with 5/5 MT, the 5% additional crit does not help as much as 10% additional damage and the better stats on the T6 gear. I do not have the exact numbers anymore, but it was pretty clear at that time. I would still think that the same would hold true for a 1:1 or 3:2 rotation.
In fact, I have done the opposite of you. Instead of getting 4/5 T5 and skipping on T6, I have been skipping on T5 and waiting to get T6, which greatly improves your agility and EW proc. I only have 2 T5 pieces (gloves and legs), which I use for farming only so that I do not have to heal my pet as much while farming and for the little better persona DPS on the T5 gear which overcomes the slight additional DPS from EW on my pet and me for my other gear.
Now part of the reason for this is that T6 > T5. But I also did this since other drops in T5 areas or available PvP or badge gear are better overall survival pieces than the individual T5 pieces, such as the S3 helm, Ranger-General Chestguard, Void Reaver Greaves, Gauntlets of Sniping, and arena shoulders and since it was probably going to be very difficult for me to get the 4 set bonus with limited Vashjj kills (only killed her 4 times to get people attunned for T6 areas) and Kael kills (only have done him twice so far and probably will not do too many times) and people fighting over the hero tokens when they dropped. I decided to let others spend high DKP amounts on the T5 helm and chest while I save for T6 pieces that are by far better for me.
Taking my current gear and substituting in T5 shoulders, chest, gloves, and legs with my rotation, I do get a personal DPS gain of 3.5 DPS. However, my average EW proc drops by 7.11 AP. Assumming .3 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS in the raid, that is a loss of 17.1 in raid DPS, which far out weighs the 3.5 personal gain.
Taking my current gear and instead substituting in 4 T6 pieces and with putting on inferior neck and cloak to make up for some of the loss of hit, I gain 77.8 personal DPS. I still lose 6.45 on average EW proc, which is about 15.5 raid DPS, but that is a total raid DPS gain of 62.3 with T6 over the 13.6 loss with T5.
With the new T6 gear available, I assume that I will be using some of those pieces in lieu of the ones listed since they have good hit rating on them besides the other stats to help make up for the T6 hit defficiency allowing me to use better gear in slots currently providing my hit rating and allowing me to use better options in some of the T6 slots such as the Bow-stiched Leggings instead of the T6 legs. Haven't had the time to determine the optimal set yet though, but I do not plan to wear T5 for raiding at all.
Anyway, this is the optimal that seems to suite me best with my current spec, rotation, and gear. Other options may work for others better.
Someone else will need to do the analysis with the 3:2 rotation since I do not think it is viable enough for me at this time from previous analysis to worry about it at this time.
thank you Whitefyst
But i think you misunderstood me.
I understand that at present full T6 > full T5, that is not even a question in my mind.
I may be misunderstanding you, but you gave a very detailed explanation as to why you think T6 > T5, this leads me to think you misunderstood my question.
The only reason i pass on T6 at the moment is because if in 2.4 i decide that 4 x T5 + 4 x T6 > 7-8 x T6, then i will of taken 3-4 bits of T6 loot that will not be used and could of gone to someone who will use them.
I don't pass because i think t5 > t6 or because i am saving DKP for better items.
My guild does have a DKP system, but it is the very very last thing we use to distribute loot. We use a system that is a very basic "need > greed" in short the whole guild is happy to "give" the item to the player that will benefit the most from it, or the player who will bring the most benefit to the raid ( set bonuses ect ) and so passing to save for better gear later on is never even a thought.
1: because if you need the gear later on, it wont matter how much you have had in the past, you will get it anyway. ( we don't "bid" against each other, we talk, decide and "give"
and 2: If it is an upgrade then you take it, period, why would you not take a piece of loot that will help you and your guild.
My only question is...
Has anyone done, or can anyone do the maths on 4 x T5 + 4 x T6 Vs 8 x t6? Or whatever combo, like bow-stitched legs and 7 x T6 ect
Considering i use an "auto, steady, steady" rotation, survival build with 5/5 MT ( if my armory matters then i apologize, as i am MM PVP build at the moment )
But i think you misunderstood me.
I understand that at present full T6 > full T5, that is not even a question in my mind.
I may be misunderstanding you, but you gave a very detailed explanation as to why you think T6 > T5, this leads me to think you misunderstood my question.
The only reason i pass on T6 at the moment is because if in 2.4 i decide that 4 x T5 + 4 x T6 > 7-8 x T6, then i will of taken 3-4 bits of T6 loot that will not be used and could of gone to someone who will use them.
I don't pass because i think t5 > t6 or because i am saving DKP for better items.
My guild does have a DKP system, but it is the very very last thing we use to distribute loot. We use a system that is a very basic "need > greed" in short the whole guild is happy to "give" the item to the player that will benefit the most from it, or the player who will bring the most benefit to the raid ( set bonuses ect ) and so passing to save for better gear later on is never even a thought.
1: because if you need the gear later on, it wont matter how much you have had in the past, you will get it anyway. ( we don't "bid" against each other, we talk, decide and "give"
and 2: If it is an upgrade then you take it, period, why would you not take a piece of loot that will help you and your guild.
My only question is...
Has anyone done, or can anyone do the maths on 4 x T5 + 4 x T6 Vs 8 x t6? Or whatever combo, like bow-stitched legs and 7 x T6 ect
Considering i use an "auto, steady, steady" rotation, survival build with 5/5 MT ( if my armory matters then i apologize, as i am MM PVP build at the moment )
Stub, I have been using this macro to do a 1:1.5 rotation. It is the most spammable macro I've seen. I'll post what I use with 5/5 Imp. Arcane Shot (my only .5 shot is arcane, I don't use multi-shot in my rotation), but fixing it for multi-shot is easy. It's been posted a few times in this thread, and I'll post exactly what I use:
The 2 /console lines let you spam the macro without hearing the error sound (not the speech--the swish sound or whatever) and the /script line clears your error frame of all those "That ability isn't ready yet" messages. The use just attempts to activate my trinket and doesn't affect the rest of the macro at all, except that it needs to be inside the 2 lines that disable then enable the sound or it will still make the error sound.
The macro basically does its best to produce a 1:1.5 rotation. It has the effect of correcting its own timing when you spam it because if any of the timing gets messed up a single delayed auto shot will get the timing working again. With heavy haste effects, if you spam the macro it will automatically drop to a 1:1 rotation prioritizing arcane shot or multi-shot over steady shot every few steadies--just don't hit it again too soon after one of the specials goes off if your bow's speed is 3.0. I also added the [nomod] to the castrandom line so i can hold down a modifier key while i spam the macro to simply force a simple 1:1 rotation for conserving mana.
To make it work with a rotation that uses multi-shot as well, change the castrandom line to...
#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /use Bloodlust Brooch /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom [nomod] Arcane Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1
The macro basically does its best to produce a 1:1.5 rotation. It has the effect of correcting its own timing when you spam it because if any of the timing gets messed up a single delayed auto shot will get the timing working again. With heavy haste effects, if you spam the macro it will automatically drop to a 1:1 rotation prioritizing arcane shot or multi-shot over steady shot every few steadies--just don't hit it again too soon after one of the specials goes off if your bow's speed is 3.0. I also added the [nomod] to the castrandom line so i can hold down a modifier key while i spam the macro to simply force a simple 1:1 rotation for conserving mana.
To make it work with a rotation that uses multi-shot as well, change the castrandom line to...
/castrandom [nomod] Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
Thank for your help ugla
I just have a few concerns: Don't you risk that the Arcane Shot or Multi-Shot will fire in between the Auto and Steady shots ?
Btw: To conserve mana I try to use the rank 1 of Multi-Shot. I just dont see anyone implement it anywhere, is there a good reason not to use the Rank 1? (I know Rank 6 does +205 dmg, but it cost ya 175 mana)
I just have a few concerns: Don't you risk that the Arcane Shot or Multi-Shot will fire in between the Auto and Steady shots ?
Btw: To conserve mana I try to use the rank 1 of Multi-Shot. I just dont see anyone implement it anywhere, is there a good reason not to use the Rank 1? (I know Rank 6 does +205 dmg, but it cost ya 175 mana)
Stub,
You can easily change any macro to use rank 1 of multi-shot or any spell like this...
I think most raiding hunters use maximum ranks of shots to increase their damage output and start using mana potions for boss fights. There are a lot of other things you can do to increase your mana regeneration like using mana oil and mageblood elixir. I also switch to Aspect of the Viper during a boss fight if my mana gets below 50% a good amount of time before the boss does (or for the couple mana draining fights). Using consumables will become even more feasible when raid bosses start dropping additional gold.
The full macro I posted yesterday only gets to the /castrandom line if a steady shot has gone off and it's waiting for auto shot. The macro works best if you spam it pretty fast--if I had a G15 I think the macro would work perfectly even with pretty good amounts of lag. The only problems I've run into are when I don't hit it after a steady and before the hidden .5 second auto shot cast that will now move the arcane shot to go off with your auto shot, but the macro will adjust by either delaying the next auto shot with a steady shot, or you can not hit the macro until the next auto shot goes off. The reason I like this macro better than a long /castsequence is that it always does your .5 shot as soon as it possibly can, and it can't get to a special on cooldown that it can't cast and hang up like a long castsequence can.
You can easily change any macro to use rank 1 of multi-shot or any spell like this...
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot(rank 1)
The full macro I posted yesterday only gets to the /castrandom line if a steady shot has gone off and it's waiting for auto shot. The macro works best if you spam it pretty fast--if I had a G15 I think the macro would work perfectly even with pretty good amounts of lag. The only problems I've run into are when I don't hit it after a steady and before the hidden .5 second auto shot cast that will now move the arcane shot to go off with your auto shot, but the macro will adjust by either delaying the next auto shot with a steady shot, or you can not hit the macro until the next auto shot goes off. The reason I like this macro better than a long /castsequence is that it always does your .5 shot as soon as it possibly can, and it can't get to a special on cooldown that it can't cast and hang up like a long castsequence can.
ulga, so with a 2.9 Bow and without any haste rating or iAS, I'll have to screw the reset down to 2.9 or leave it at 3.0?
Regards, Patrick
Regards, Patrick
So, did a TK raid last night. WWS: Wow Web Stats
I died on VR at the last 5% or so unfortunately :\.
Thanks to all your help I'm doing a lot better. I still need to get my rot down a bit better but I'm doing a lot better than before, thanks again for all the help.
Still working on getting a few dps upgrades here and there.
Also, I wanted to ask opinions:
Ancient Amani Longbow - Items - World of Warcraft (Ancient Amani Longbow)
OR
Arcanite Steam-Pistol - Items - World of Warcraft (Arcanite Steam-Pistol)
The steam pistol has a little more DPS on cheeky's spreadsheet, but the longbow has AP and I get the bow crit because I"m a troll
I died on VR at the last 5% or so unfortunately :\.
Thanks to all your help I'm doing a lot better. I still need to get my rot down a bit better but I'm doing a lot better than before, thanks again for all the help.
Still working on getting a few dps upgrades here and there.
Also, I wanted to ask opinions:
Ancient Amani Longbow - Items - World of Warcraft (Ancient Amani Longbow)
OR
Arcanite Steam-Pistol - Items - World of Warcraft (Arcanite Steam-Pistol)
The steam pistol has a little more DPS on cheeky's spreadsheet, but the longbow has AP and I get the bow crit because I"m a troll
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
No, the 3 seconds is pretty arbitrary. Basically, if you don't press the macro button for 3 seconds it resets. Otherwise it resets each time the castsequence completes, as long as each step happens within 3 seconds. Really it can be anything over a couple seconds and work fine. If you have any other specific questions it might be a good idea to send me a PM so it doesn't clutter up the thread.
Kope, I imagine which of those two weapons is better depends on whether you need the hit rating on the Steam-Pistol or not.
Kope, I imagine which of those two weapons is better depends on whether you need the hit rating on the Steam-Pistol or not.
Last edited by ugla : 02/27/08 at 12:21 PM.
Ugla - that is the exact same macro I use (with MultiShot worked into the /castrandom).
This macro works perfectly, and have yet to have any problems with it at all. The macro is easily configurable to your needs. I added in a line for Kill Command as well...and it still works fine.
I dont know if you have had a chance to use the macro on PTR at all, but it was causing me some issues last week with the Steady Shot (the casting bar kept saying it had "Failed"). Im not sure what the problem was exactly...if it has to due with Blizzards new combat log or what. It seemed like the Steady Shot was going off, even though the casting bar kept saying it had "Failed", but with server lag and mod issues, I didnt really get a chance to investigate the issue beyond that.
This macro works perfectly, and have yet to have any problems with it at all. The macro is easily configurable to your needs. I added in a line for Kill Command as well...and it still works fine.
I dont know if you have had a chance to use the macro on PTR at all, but it was causing me some issues last week with the Steady Shot (the casting bar kept saying it had "Failed"). Im not sure what the problem was exactly...if it has to due with Blizzards new combat log or what. It seemed like the Steady Shot was going off, even though the casting bar kept saying it had "Failed", but with server lag and mod issues, I didnt really get a chance to investigate the issue beyond that.
My experience with combination of arcane and mulit shot in this macro is that arcan doesn't fire if multi is on cooldown and vice versa.
So I'm stuck with a castsequence if I want to use both.
This one i doing fine for me with no clipping.
So I'm stuck with a castsequence if I want to use both.
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot; /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
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Originally Posted by Stub
My experience with combination of arcane and mulit shot in this macro is that arcan doesn't fire if multi is on cooldown and vice versa.
So I'm stuck with a castsequence if I want to use both. /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot; /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command |
I've always been an advocate of manually weaving but even a spam macro will serve you much better than a castsequence
was wondering where in stats inregards to Agi, rap, crit should a Surv hunter be by the time hes working illdian
right now un buff:
agi 908
Rap : 2323
crit: 36.70%
My goal is to have at least 1215agi buffed but where should rap and crit be at?
right now un buff:
agi 908
Rap : 2323
crit: 36.70%
My goal is to have at least 1215agi buffed but where should rap and crit be at?
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
For all those who use castsequence macros, cheeky's new spreadsheet models your dps using castsequence/spam/manual and you will lose a significant amount of dps by using castsequence, just be aware!
I've always been an advocate of manually weaving but even a spam macro will serve you much better than a castsequence |
@Darkstryder- I hope that 1215 raid buffed agi includes totems, because otherwise I get the feeling you'll be dropping too many useful stats to reach it...
Of course, totems, food, pot, scroll, mark, kings, , right now i can reach 1100 or more
|
Originally Posted by Vasilii
For all those who use castsequence macros, cheeky's new spreadsheet models your dps using castsequence/spam/manual and you will lose a significant amount of dps by using castsequence, just be aware!
I've always been an advocate of manually weaving but even a spam macro will serve you much better than a castsequence |
Dark
I think ultimate pre 2.4 gear with totem is about 1280 agi fully buffed with all epic gems.
I think ultimate pre 2.4 gear with totem is about 1280 agi fully buffed with all epic gems.
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Originally Posted by vank
What latency are you using? At .1, which is what I play at, the results are identical (castsequence v. spam v. hand weave)
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Hey there fellow Survivalists!
My main, Grynn on Darrowmere, has been raiding for about 2-3 months now. We've got Gruul on farm, and we're starting to move into SSC. Two weeks ago we downed Loot Reaver for the first time
I have ~830 agi unbuffed (ignore my eng helm on armory, I have the t4 helm).
In terms of gear, the one thing I'm missing before we push into new content is the ZA Pauldrons of Primal Fury - Items - World of Warcraft .
There was point in time when we were in the middle of doing Kara that I was topping the dps charts. Now, unfortunately, I've been pushed down to the 5-7th position regularly (usually 1st for the physical dps dealers). Part of this I think is due to the gearing up of our guild's spellcasters, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm using the wrong shot rotation.
I've been using Bladefist's Breadth - Items - World of Warcraft and Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft for trinkets primarily, though I recently got Dragonspine Trophy - Items - World of Warcraft .
For pushing the extra dps, I tend to hit rapid fire, brooch.... wait for cds.... bladefist breadth... hit readiness when brooch cd is up then rapid fire and brooch...
I've alternated the trophy and brooch, and I seem to get better dps with the brooch. I'm also looking at getting Badge of Tenacity - Items - World of Warcraft and Mark of Conquest - Items - World of Warcraft (to help with mana problems) , and try em out.
So my dilemna: I'm wondering if I'm pushing too much haste for a regular shot rotation. Is there one that works for me? Should I respec into ImAotH, or Imp Arcane Shots? Any other suggestions? What trinket combo works best for you guys?
I've yet to do some testing on Dr. Boom, I see.
PS: how do ya do those direct links to items?
My main, Grynn on Darrowmere, has been raiding for about 2-3 months now. We've got Gruul on farm, and we're starting to move into SSC. Two weeks ago we downed Loot Reaver for the first time
I have ~830 agi unbuffed (ignore my eng helm on armory, I have the t4 helm).
In terms of gear, the one thing I'm missing before we push into new content is the ZA Pauldrons of Primal Fury - Items - World of Warcraft .
There was point in time when we were in the middle of doing Kara that I was topping the dps charts. Now, unfortunately, I've been pushed down to the 5-7th position regularly (usually 1st for the physical dps dealers). Part of this I think is due to the gearing up of our guild's spellcasters, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm using the wrong shot rotation.
I've been using Bladefist's Breadth - Items - World of Warcraft and Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft for trinkets primarily, though I recently got Dragonspine Trophy - Items - World of Warcraft .
For pushing the extra dps, I tend to hit rapid fire, brooch.... wait for cds.... bladefist breadth... hit readiness when brooch cd is up then rapid fire and brooch...
I've alternated the trophy and brooch, and I seem to get better dps with the brooch. I'm also looking at getting Badge of Tenacity - Items - World of Warcraft and Mark of Conquest - Items - World of Warcraft (to help with mana problems) , and try em out.
So my dilemna: I'm wondering if I'm pushing too much haste for a regular shot rotation. Is there one that works for me? Should I respec into ImAotH, or Imp Arcane Shots? Any other suggestions? What trinket combo works best for you guys?
I've yet to do some testing on Dr. Boom, I see.
PS: how do ya do those direct links to items?
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Dark
I think ultimate pre 2.4 gear with totem is about 1280 agi fully buffed with all epic gems. |
buff im at 1199 as of tonite
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Originally Posted by Darkstryder
buff im at 1199 as of tonite
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Originally Posted by Darkstryder
buff im at 1199 as of tonite
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Asirius-
A couple comments on gear. You mention a t4 helm, generally t4 is crap for survival, make the engineering one with the agi on it way better than any drops you can currently get. Spend the money on 8agi gems, unfortunately the price has skyrocketed on those. What are you doing with your arena points? The arena gear has great itemization for Survival. If you are farming ZA try and get the timed ones down for Trollbane.
I spec into arcane shot so that it fits into my rotation every other steady. Depending on your crit rate you may be better off getting 5/5 MT.
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
If you are farming ZA try and get the timed ones down for Trollbane.
I spec into arcane shot so that it fits into my rotation every other steady. Depending on your crit rate you may be better off getting 5/5 MT. |
A 0/20/41 build has been analyzed on these forums and all evidence points that is superior to an Improved Arcane Shot build.
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Originally Posted by Asirius
So my dilemna: I'm wondering if I'm pushing too much haste for a regular shot rotation. Is there one that works for me? Should I respec into ImAotH, or Imp Arcane Shots? Any other suggestions? What trinket combo works best for you guys?
PS: how do ya do those direct links to items? |
Concerning your character, I have a few suggestions with realizing that there are many ways to skin a cat and be successful and that one size does not fit all. Take or reject these as you choose:
1) Your mana is way low by about 2K. Are you having mana problems in long boss fights? If not, what are you doing to keep up your mana levels. I would suggest replacing some of that leather with mail pieces with some int. There is nothing wrong with wearing a little leather, but wearing too much of it can actually hurt your DPS if you are going OOM a lot or having to use AoV too much or use a lesser shot rotation. In addition, that much leather reduces your armor, and therefore, your survivability a lot too.
2) The [Dagger of Bad Mojo] are awesome DPS weapons, but note that they have no stamina on them. With your character being a little low on health, I would suggest using a weapon with some stamina on them until you can get your health higher. Since you are entering TK soon, considering [Netherbane] instead as a comparable option - a little less DPS but more EW AP and a lot more health.
3) As someone else suggested, look into arena gear. The s2 shoulders and s3 pieces would mostly be very nice upgrades for you.
4) Also look at Badges of Justice pieces. I see that you have the cloak and the trinket, but there are other good pieces too.
5) Also, consider more balance in gear. As comparison, you have very good agility - only about 100 less than me, but your AP and crit rate are relatively low, about 400 and 7% less. Agility gear is good and a priority in order to increase our DPS and EW proc, but sometimes the gear with the most agility does not improve our overall raid DPS contribution the most. Use Cheeky's spreadsheet to analyze gear options and to make tradeoffs. I look at my DPS and EW proc change between two items and determine my over raid contribution difference to make my decisions. This imbalance is possibly hurting your DPS some.
6) Your goggles currently do not have a meta gem. Suggest the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
7) Concerning spec (which I prefer the 0/20/41), a must in my opinion is 5/5 Mortal Shots. Not having that greatly reduces DPS. Only having 2 ranks in it reduces my DPS by 62. To get to 5/5, I would suggest dropping at least 1 point in Trap Mastery. Previous posts show that you only need 1 point to be able to trap everything that is trapable. The second point is ineffective. With losing that point, you no longer have enough points at that level. To fix that, I would move the point in Resourcefulness since you shouldn't be using traps that much in 25 mans - or at least not for crowd control, making the cooldown and mana cost savings not too worthwhile, into Survivalist to help your health levels. (Personally, I would move the other point in Trap Mastery into Survivalist too). Next, although I am a fan of Wyvern Sting, especially for soloing and PvP, it really doesn't fit a raid build since the stings provide poor damage per mana. Suggest moving this point into Mortal Shots as well. Finally, as soon as you have sufficient mana, consider moving the 3 point in TotH to complete Mortal Shots.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
To Asirius:
I'm not sure how the engineering goggle recipes are acquired, but I'd suggest [Deathblow X11 Goggles] instead of the tier 4 or the mail version of the goggles if it's reasonable to obtain the pattern. As suggested before, try getting a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] in that meta socket, it's just that good. You will need at least 2 yellow and 2 blue gems to unlock the prerequisites for the meta, though. Where you socket them is up to you; the fastest, but not necessarily best way is to get 2x[Jagged Talasite], and save more slots for rubies. But if you use 2x[Shifting Nightseye] AND 2 of either[Glinting Noble Topaz],[Rigid Dawnstone] or [Smooth Dawnstone], you can probably unlock some helpful set bonuses along the way and get a bit more stats than 2 green gems would grant you.
The necklace is quite good, despite the blue quality, and, apparently, the one and only upgrade to it is the necklace from the drop off Kael'Thas ([Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]). Before you get that, It's worth investing 2 Living Rubies in your necklace.
Also, don't even think of raiding without 20 points in Marksmanship (for 5/5 Mortal Shots). The extra damage on critical adds up to quite a lot during a raid encounter. Also, you're never EVER going to need more than 1 point in Trap Mastery.
Entrapment is quite nice to have around, even on a raid spec, for those 'oh shit!' moments, if you ask me. Personally, I'd suggest something like this spec , if you really want Readiness, but basically, it's your survival tree, and you adjust it to what you feel like suits you most, in the end. However, again, I can't stress enough how much of a difference 5/5 Mortal Shots makes to your sustained dps; you're really going to have to go for 20 in Marksmanship, regardless of your main talent tree, which only leaves you with only 41 points for Survival. However, seeing as you said you're the 5th or so spot on the meters, and the first of the physical damage dealers, I'd say Expose weakness is pretty much wasted on your raid. It's still a nice perk to have for yourself and your pet, at least, but 2/3 should be enough
Also, keeping that in mind, you can lower the priority on agility by a little, and broaden your range of upgrades.
Also, if you don't really like the DST, upgrade the [Bladefist's Breadth] to an [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Tsunami Talisman] and keep Bloodlust and one of those.
Your mana issues should fix themselves when you start getting tier 5 gear, which have decent mp5 and intellect on them; or, whenever you manage to find a mail upgrade to your current leather gear (you're really losing a lot of intellect on those).
Also, 2xNetherbanes or Daggers of Bad Mojo, or whatever else you can dual wield helps with the mana regeneration, as Vasilii said.
Finally, get rid of the [Clefthide Leg Armor] and +6 agi gems from your leggings, replace it with [Cobrahide Leg Armor], or the epic [Nethercobra Leg Armor] version.
Ditch the low level chest, as well; and fast. If you're unlucky with drops, pay some 40ish gold for a [Breastplate of Rapid Striking] from the AH if need be, you're going to get a lot more dps out of that.
EDIT: You're still short of the hit cap, try to fix that, unless the tier 4 helm changes anything
I'm not sure how the engineering goggle recipes are acquired, but I'd suggest [Deathblow X11 Goggles] instead of the tier 4 or the mail version of the goggles if it's reasonable to obtain the pattern. As suggested before, try getting a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] in that meta socket, it's just that good. You will need at least 2 yellow and 2 blue gems to unlock the prerequisites for the meta, though. Where you socket them is up to you; the fastest, but not necessarily best way is to get 2x[Jagged Talasite], and save more slots for rubies. But if you use 2x[Shifting Nightseye] AND 2 of either[Glinting Noble Topaz],[Rigid Dawnstone] or [Smooth Dawnstone], you can probably unlock some helpful set bonuses along the way and get a bit more stats than 2 green gems would grant you.
The necklace is quite good, despite the blue quality, and, apparently, the one and only upgrade to it is the necklace from the drop off Kael'Thas ([Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]). Before you get that, It's worth investing 2 Living Rubies in your necklace.
Also, don't even think of raiding without 20 points in Marksmanship (for 5/5 Mortal Shots). The extra damage on critical adds up to quite a lot during a raid encounter. Also, you're never EVER going to need more than 1 point in Trap Mastery.
Entrapment is quite nice to have around, even on a raid spec, for those 'oh shit!' moments, if you ask me. Personally, I'd suggest something like this spec , if you really want Readiness, but basically, it's your survival tree, and you adjust it to what you feel like suits you most, in the end. However, again, I can't stress enough how much of a difference 5/5 Mortal Shots makes to your sustained dps; you're really going to have to go for 20 in Marksmanship, regardless of your main talent tree, which only leaves you with only 41 points for Survival. However, seeing as you said you're the 5th or so spot on the meters, and the first of the physical damage dealers, I'd say Expose weakness is pretty much wasted on your raid. It's still a nice perk to have for yourself and your pet, at least, but 2/3 should be enough
Also, keeping that in mind, you can lower the priority on agility by a little, and broaden your range of upgrades.
Also, if you don't really like the DST, upgrade the [Bladefist's Breadth] to an [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Tsunami Talisman] and keep Bloodlust and one of those.
Your mana issues should fix themselves when you start getting tier 5 gear, which have decent mp5 and intellect on them; or, whenever you manage to find a mail upgrade to your current leather gear (you're really losing a lot of intellect on those).
Also, 2xNetherbanes or Daggers of Bad Mojo, or whatever else you can dual wield helps with the mana regeneration, as Vasilii said.
Finally, get rid of the [Clefthide Leg Armor] and +6 agi gems from your leggings, replace it with [Cobrahide Leg Armor], or the epic [Nethercobra Leg Armor] version.
Ditch the low level chest, as well; and fast. If you're unlucky with drops, pay some 40ish gold for a [Breastplate of Rapid Striking] from the AH if need be, you're going to get a lot more dps out of that.
EDIT: You're still short of the hit cap, try to fix that, unless the tier 4 helm changes anything
Last edited by Enova : 02/29/08 at 8:14 PM.
Thanks for the responses guys, they're rather overwhelming!
@ Enova, Whitefyst, Vasilli: I was disappointed to discover that Engineering only allows the engineer to craft the highest armor class that applies to your class, that is, hunters can only make one mail goggle schematic, and that's the [Surestrike Goggles v2.0]. I learned this after getting all the mats for [Deathblow X11 Goggles], and reading some misleading comments on wowhead. I've been thinking the same thing about the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] for a while too. The [Demon Stalker Greathelm] is the best for me in terms of the gear that I have until I can get merciless gear for my hunter. I just started arenas this last month. It's strangely addicting.
My next best chest piece is D3 Beast Lord stuff, so I'm hoping that [Ranger-General's Chestguard] will drop, either that or [Arrow-fall Chestguard] will drop as well.
In terms of mana, I have some mail pieces in the bank with more int to spread it out. I generally don't find that I'm running out of mana in too many raid situations, usually due to having Ret pallies drop Seal of Wisdom on the bosses, and grabbing int consumables and buffs. 10 mans and 5mans I'm finding that I need to swap gear for.
I'm itching to get some more ZA in, our guild is strangely addicted to kara, although 2/3rds of our 70s are fully kara equipped, and we've yet to finish ZA. [Trollbane], [Coif of the Jungle Stalker], [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] are on my wish list there.
Thanks for the points on my spec, I shall move to rectify it. I had no idea about 2 point thing in trap mastery!
Thanks all!
@ Enova, Whitefyst, Vasilli: I was disappointed to discover that Engineering only allows the engineer to craft the highest armor class that applies to your class, that is, hunters can only make one mail goggle schematic, and that's the [Surestrike Goggles v2.0]. I learned this after getting all the mats for [Deathblow X11 Goggles], and reading some misleading comments on wowhead. I've been thinking the same thing about the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] for a while too. The [Demon Stalker Greathelm] is the best for me in terms of the gear that I have until I can get merciless gear for my hunter. I just started arenas this last month. It's strangely addicting.
My next best chest piece is D3 Beast Lord stuff, so I'm hoping that [Ranger-General's Chestguard] will drop, either that or [Arrow-fall Chestguard] will drop as well.
In terms of mana, I have some mail pieces in the bank with more int to spread it out. I generally don't find that I'm running out of mana in too many raid situations, usually due to having Ret pallies drop Seal of Wisdom on the bosses, and grabbing int consumables and buffs. 10 mans and 5mans I'm finding that I need to swap gear for.
I'm itching to get some more ZA in, our guild is strangely addicted to kara, although 2/3rds of our 70s are fully kara equipped, and we've yet to finish ZA. [Trollbane], [Coif of the Jungle Stalker], [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] are on my wish list there.
Thanks for the points on my spec, I shall move to rectify it. I had no idea about 2 point thing in trap mastery!
Thanks all!
I would like to put a serious thank you out to all the veteran survival hunters on these boards that have helped each and every one of us out without any grumblings or "sigh another question?" Enova, Whitefyst, Vasilii and any others I'm forgetting, you guys have been great!
I know you guys have been a great help to me, and everyone else trying to attain any information about the spec.
I know you guys have been a great help to me, and everyone else trying to attain any information about the spec.
I am curious, I know we've managed to pull together a pretty comprehensive view of survival hunters over the course of this insanely long thread... even though Howie's gone, is there any way we could stick up a summary so that prospective survival hunters won't have to read through the entire thread to see if their question has been answered? I know I'd be glad to help out, as would most of the other knowledgeable posters here.
I have a problem. I am aware that the spreadsheet is a 'perfect' utilization of your resources for DPS and in real battles it will be lower, however does anyone know how large a gap we are looking at? I'm lacking somewhere around 150dps at the worst and that seems too large. Not to mention how do I determine what latency I am at? As in 120 ms equates to what on the spreadsheet?
I believe I have not given enough information to help you all help me, though. So we come to the crux of why I am posting. What do you need from me (recount logs, WWS strings, preferred macro usage, and I can't think of anything else.) and how do I present it to you? Everytime I try to figure out saving recount logs or even loading WWS it doesn't work out.
Seriously, 855-895 dps is just unacceptable on a personal level. I already know I won't be matching BM unless special circumstances are met, but optimization would be nice.
I believe I have not given enough information to help you all help me, though. So we come to the crux of why I am posting. What do you need from me (recount logs, WWS strings, preferred macro usage, and I can't think of anything else.) and how do I present it to you? Everytime I try to figure out saving recount logs or even loading WWS it doesn't work out.
Seriously, 855-895 dps is just unacceptable on a personal level. I already know I won't be matching BM unless special circumstances are met, but optimization would be nice.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I am curious, I know we've managed to pull together a pretty comprehensive view of survival hunters over the course of this insanely long thread... even though Howie's gone, is there any way we could stick up a summary so that prospective survival hunters won't have to read through the entire thread to see if their question has been answered? I know I'd be glad to help out, as would most of the other knowledgeable posters here.
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I have a great respect for Zek and learned a ton from him when I first started coming to these forums, he posted this a while back and it might be a nice start to a comprehensive survival guide, check post #72 on this pageZek post
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I have a problem. I am aware that the spreadsheet is a 'perfect' utilization of your resources for DPS and in real battles it will be lower, however does anyone know how large a gap we are looking at? I'm lacking somewhere around 150dps at the worst and that seems too large. Not to mention how do I determine what latency I am at? As in 120 ms equates to what on the spreadsheet?
I believe I have not given enough information to help you all help me, though. So we come to the crux of why I am posting. What do you need from me (recount logs, WWS strings, preferred macro usage, and I can't think of anything else.) and how do I present it to you? Everytime I try to figure out saving recount logs or even loading WWS it doesn't work out. Seriously, 855-895 dps is just unacceptable on a personal level. I already know I won't be matching BM unless special circumstances are met, but optimization would be nice. |
Concerning a loss of 150 DPS from the ideal in the spreadsheet, this can be a realistic drop from the ideal due to many circumstances, including:
- The nature of the fights: If you are switching between targets a lot, being interrupted during casts, having to move around alot, etc. your DPS will suffer, sometimes signficantly, from the ideal in the spreadsheet. Pile several of these factors on top of each other, and the effect is even more dramatic. Thus, if you see this drop only in "chaotic" fights with a lot going on, I would not be too worried about it. But if you see it in a pretty simple stand and shoot fight, then you need to investigate other reasons
- Modeling of the target: If you did not properly model the targets you are against in the spreadsheet, then you will get unreasonable results. For instance, with keeping everything constant in the spreadsheet, I do 1337 DPS against a custom level 73 target with 7700 armor. Changing it to a level 70 target with the same armor, my DPS goes up by 28. Changing it the other way to be Illidian, I do only 1204 for a 133 drop from initial custom target. If I do Archimonde, I get 1444 DPS. As can be seen, your DPS can drastically change depending on the target, and not only from trash to boss, but even dramactically amongst the bosses.
- Having to do more than the shots in your rotation: The spreadsheet rotation provides your DPS for only doing the rotation. It does not factor in other actions that you make, such as casting MD, FDing, refreshing HM, casting Scorpid, dropping a trap, using a trinket or drums, using rapid fire, using a pot, etc. Unless you have a very loose rotation that will allow this action without throwing off your rotation since you have plenty of dead space (which you shouldn't have if using a good rotation), then doing these actions will affect your DPS relative to that predicted in the spreadsheet. Many of these actions are important to the success of the fight and have to be done with the corresponding loss of DPS. The key though is how you are performing these actions and to make sure to do them at the proper times to minimize clipping of your auto shots and to minimize the impact to your rotation and DPS. Some short duration actions may be able to be inserted into small dead areas in the rotation with little to no impact, but if you make those same actions at the wrong place, they can have drastic impacts on your rotation. Other items may need to substitute a special in your rotation to properly keep the rotation going smoothly and tight. If you are instead forcing them into your rotation without substitution, you can see big DPS losses.
- Not executing your rotation properly: Obviously, even when just doing the shots in your rotation, if you do not execute it properly, you will see a DPS loss. In addition, if you are properly performing your rotation but are not modeling it correctly in the spreadsheet, you will not match it and could be setting unreasonable expectations for yourself. This includes properly changing your rotation during periods of temporary haste to properly utilize the haste. Some rotations will actually provide less DPS if maintained exactly as is during high haste periods due to specials clipping auto shots.
- Not receiving the buffs used in the spreadsheet: Obviously, if you are not receiving the buffs that you modeled in the spreaadsheet or even if you are receiving lesser forms of the buffs, your DPS will be suffer relative to expected. If some of the buffs are totems and the totems are not being refreshed immediately or you are moving out of the area of affect, then your DPS wil not be as expected. If you modeled the DPS with AoH, then any time with using AoV or any other aspect will not provide expected results.
These are just a few of the factors that can cause differences between your actual and predicted performances. I am sure if I spend more time, I could think of a few more to list and that others may have additional ones too. Without additional information from you, I really cannot provide much more assistance. However, I do hope that what I provided may help you model your character in the spreadsheet better to provide more reasonable expectations as well as hopefully perform a little better if you are not already properly accounting for some of the factors listed.
I will agree though that unless you are fighting a "tough" boss and doing a lot of extra actions, that 855-895 DPS seems a little low.
Just looking at the gear you have, it appears that you and your guild have definitely progressed farther than me and mine. However, I was a little surprised that I actually had some better survival DPS stats (comparing tooltip stats with same buffs as on your armory) in some key stats as shown below with me listed first:
Agility: 914 to 752
AP: 2410 to 2224
Crit: 36.49% to 37.18%
(I realize that other stats not listed here such as armor ignore, set bonus, and pet enhancing abilities also affect DPS.)
Now I realize that the gear someone has is not always ideal since it depends on what drops when you are in the raid and whether you can win what you really want. I also realize that sometimes you have to take a less ideal option since it is what is available. With that said, you do have some items that are not well suited for optimal survival spec - for both personal DPS and EW proc. These are mostly items without agility, which are the key reasons my agility and AP are higher. Although I agree that agility should not be taken blindly where you loss other good stats just to improve a couple points of agility, agility is still a survival hunter's number 1 stat since it results in more crit, AP, armor, dodge, and EW proc and since it scales with LR and BoK, resulting in even more of the derived stats. Some of the items I would suggest improving on to get more DPS are (I realize that some of these are probably HR compromises due to the inadequacy of good T6 hit gear until 2.4 comes out):
- [Choker of Serrated Blades]: As far as DPS goes and getting some agility, [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] from Kael is a superior neck, but the trouble is that you have to win it off Kael, who your guild is probably not doing much anymore. The good news is that you do not need the neck from Kael, and can get an even better upgrade by having a JC craft you [Necklace of the Deep]. Even with just 2 +8 agi gems in it, this item increases your agility by 47 when buffed with BoK. Although the personal DPS between these two items may be about the same, [Necklace of the Deep] increases the EW proc by about 12 on my char, for about 29 more raid DPS. It also has a little HR for its socket bonus.
- [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]: Once again, this item does not have any agility on it. The best cloak for a survival hunter is [Thalassian Wildercloak]. Infortunately, that is from Kael, and guilds usually do not kill him enough for many people to get the cape. However, there are other good options out there for survival hunters. If you do not need the hit, [Blood Knight War Cloak], which can be bought with badges is one of them. That's 29 more agility. On my character, the badge cloak is a slight 1.5 DPS loss, but my EW proc is 9.5 AP better, for an overall raid improvement of about 20 DPS. If you need hit, I understand using this cape instead, but I would prefer the [Drape of the Dark Reavers] since it provides 30 more AP. Although on my char, it is about 4 personal DPS less, it provides about 10 AP more on EW, for once again about 20 DPS raid gain.
- [Vengeful Gladiator's Waraxe]: Not only does this item have no agility, there are myriads of options that provide both better DPS and better EW proc for significant personal and raid DPS increases. I am currently using 2 [Netherbane]s, which are by no means the best survival hunter weapons. However, they do 9 more personal DPS and 17 more AP on EW proc for an overall raid DPS gain of about 50. Now, I realize that you are probably using it to get hit capped, but you would be better served to chose better melee stat weapons and getting your hit rating up by other methods including regemming. For instance, you are already 4 HR above the cap. If you replaced the axe with something more suitable for a survival hunter, you would only be 11 HR below the cap. If you replaced a gem (probably your 10 crit one works best) with either a +8 or +10 HR one, you would be close enough to the cap with great improvements in over raid DPS. if you get [Necklace of the Deep] too, you would be back over the cap either way.
There are also many available upgrades from T5 and T6 areas for the boots as well.
Just some things to consider that may hopefully be helpful.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I have a problem. I am aware that the spreadsheet is a 'perfect' utilization of your resources for DPS and in real battles it will be lower, however does anyone know how large a gap we are looking at? I'm lacking somewhere around 150dps at the worst and that seems too large. Not to mention how do I determine what latency I am at? As in 120 ms equates to what on the spreadsheet?
I believe I have not given enough information to help you all help me, though. So we come to the crux of why I am posting. What do you need from me (recount logs, WWS strings, preferred macro usage, and I can't think of anything else.) and how do I present it to you? Everytime I try to figure out saving recount logs or even loading WWS it doesn't work out. Seriously, 855-895 dps is just unacceptable on a personal level. I already know I won't be matching BM unless special circumstances are met, but optimization would be nice. |
Do you reset the meters before every fight? If it's for a whole night of raiding, the figures aren't really unreasonable... you slack a bit, you may switch targets fast and not gain any benefit from Hunter's mark, the target can die before the pet gets to it; that sort of stuff is simply hunter unfriendly.
Ideally, a report for a stationary, 4 minutes or longer encounter like Rage or Naj'entus alone would give you a good idea of the gap between spreadsheets and the game.
Now, assuming you're using the ideal benchmark, there's also a matter of where you get your data. Some meters use the damage done/total time, some use damage done/time in combat, and some use damage done/time doing damage (for instance, if you're kiting Supremus, you're in combat, but you're not doing damage). Ideally, a WWS would be useful to see. Recount figures are also quite accurate for yourself, and very accurate for the whole raid, if you also run SWS and recieve sync from it.
So, on a pure tank and spank fight with little movement, I'd estimate you should be doing around 1000 dps easily, if it drags on for a few minutes. So what's stopping you? Well, there could be a number of situations, and this may not be news to you, but there's no way I could tell without a WWS:
*you may not be using your pet; or, you may be using it but it keeps getting killed; or you pull it out for healing too often. If you're having pet survivability trouble, 2/5 tier 5 is the way to go Also, if this happens, you may have forgotten to train avoidance or resistances?
*are you using a wind serpent, by any chance? if you are, Lightning Breath should really be put on a macro (I'm not exactly a fan of macros, but this is really where you need to use one) the default behavior when you have LB set on autocast is to move out of melee to cast it and back in melee afterwards, completely skipping regular attacks and any bite attacks the pet may squeeze in; if you'd manually command it every time it's up, this doesn't occur; if you use a macro, it yields the same results as manually commanding it, but without having to spam the ctrl + 4 or whatever hotkey it's up.
*you may not be using the proper rotation, or you may be using it wrong. Ideally, you want a 1:1.5 with that spec and speed. Are you achieving this, or are you skipping shots? More importantly, are you using macros to time your rotation? Macros are quite a common source of dps drain; it could have a too complex shot sequence, or it could be missing something; also, it could jam at some point in the sequence. You can try going manual, or you can try a simpler macro just to stop you from skipping autoshots, and time the arcane/multi manually. On that note, how do you manage the Dragonspine procs?
That's about all I can think of without some in game records, but there are also a few things I noticed on your armory:
Firstly, your AP seems slightly low, but I blame that on the PVP axe and boots, the suboptimal (as in really bad) shoulders and the Kara belt; I'm sure you've planned upgrades you're waiting for, and it doesn't really make that much of a difference just yet.
Secondly, you're standing at 37% crit pre BOK and LOTP, yet you've only got 2 points in Mortal shots; raidbuffed, during MT proc, 50% of your attacks would be crits, easily. You're losing a lot of damage on those criticals, and they add up. As the current hunter mechanics work, this is THE talent to maximize. Basically the reason why all builds are x/20+/x. I'd suggest skipping Imp Arcane shot entirely to maximize this and move the 2 remaining points to Rapid Killing in order not to get a freakish cooldown on Arcane Shot. On a 1:1.5 rotation, Arcane shot fits in quite nicely on a 6 second cooldown, and the 2 minutes off Rapid Fire grant you quite a bonus as well; Basically, it's the difference between using it once or twice during a 4 minute fight
Oh, yeah, almost forgot... 1000 ms = 1 sec in the standard convention, so I'm pretty sure 120 ms is still 0.12 sec in Cheeky's spreadsheet, too
EDIT: it'd be interesting to know what macros you're using and what rotation you aim to achieve, what pet do you usually raid with, and if you're in the habit of downranking shots for more mana efficiency.
Last edited by Enova : 03/05/08 at 8:52 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hey guys my guild progression is:
3/4 TK
5/6 SSC
6/6 ZA
2/2 World Bosses
2/2 Gruul
0/1 Mag
Armory :
Spec: 0/24/37
I chose to put my 5 left over points into Barrage because i found MT to have diminishing returns because im at about 45% crit durring raids. I know I can take the point out of Wyrvenn sting and put it into Efficiency, but my mana is fine.
These are my current stats:
Self Buffed / Raid Buffed
Agi = 874 / 1205
AP = 2218 / 2740
Crit = 34.48% / 48.63%
Hit lvl 70 = 7.44% (for trash I use neck of the deep / t5 shoulders)
Hit Boss = 8.77% (for boss I use worgen neck / ZA shoulders )
Gear I use now / Gear in Bank worth Mentioning / Next Planned Upgrade
Head = [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] / [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] / T5
Neck = [Worgen Claw Necklace] / [Necklace of the Deep] / [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
Shoulder = [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] / T5 / T6
Back = [Blood Knight War Cloak] / None / [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest = [Felstalker Breastplate] / [Arrow-fall Chestguard][Beast Lord Cuirass]S1 / [Ranger-General's Chestguard]
Wrist = Vindicators / [Master Assassin Wristwraps][Bands of the Celestial Archer] / [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
Gloves = [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] / [Gauntlets of Sniping] / T6
Waist = [Belt of the Black Eagle] / Vindicators [Bladeangel's Money Belt] / [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
Legs = [Void Reaver Greaves] / None / [Bow-stitched Leggings]
Feet = [Star-Strider Boots] / [Fiend Slayer Boots] / [Cobra-Lash Boots]
Ring1 = [Garona's Signet Ring] / Vindicators / [Ring of Lethality]
Ring2 = [Pathfinder's Band] / None / [Signet of Primal Wrath]
Trink1 = [Hourglass of the Unraveller] / [Dragonspine Trophy] / [Tsunami Talisman]
Trink2 = [Berserker's Call] / [Abacus of Violent Odds] / None
Bow = [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] / None / [Serpent Spine Longbow]
2h = [Trollbane] / None / [Halberd of Desolation]
Pet = Wind Serpent / Ravager, Scorpid / None
My DPS ranges in SSC / TK anywhere from 1150-1300.
Latency : 200-300ms
I use (1:1.5) Manual Rotation
Hasted: (1:1) Rotation
This is my 1st Post, and I would like to know if my gear selection is correct, or if I can improve my personal dps by using some of the gear I have in the bank. I would also like to know if the Next Planned Upgrade column is correct for Survival hunters. I am passing on certain gear (like t5 gloves / legs for example) so the BM hunters in the guild can get better use out of it. Also i would like to know if some of the blues i am wearing now are decent or should be replace immidiately. Questions like, is my AP too low? or am i sacrificing too much of my own DPS for the raid? Any helpful replys are appreciated.
I currently dominate the DPS meters in my guild. It's not uncommon to see me at about 1200 DPS / 12% dmg done on a lurker fight compared to our mages and melee at about 650-800 DPS / 6-9% dmg done. Basically what im saying is, very rarely am I #2 on the DPS charts, other than the obvious aoe fights like Solarian. (even then...) However, I still want to improve my game, because I know i can do better. Its not always about the meters though, that's why I picked Survival in the first place, otherwise I would still be BM. Judging from the meters I have a feeling I know what im doing, but I've come here to ask you guys for your advice, and some fine tuning. :P thx
3/4 TK
5/6 SSC
6/6 ZA
2/2 World Bosses
2/2 Gruul
0/1 Mag
Armory :
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dethecus&n=Wispwisp
I chose to put my 5 left over points into Barrage because i found MT to have diminishing returns because im at about 45% crit durring raids. I know I can take the point out of Wyrvenn sting and put it into Efficiency, but my mana is fine.
These are my current stats:
Self Buffed / Raid Buffed
Agi = 874 / 1205
AP = 2218 / 2740
Crit = 34.48% / 48.63%
Hit lvl 70 = 7.44% (for trash I use neck of the deep / t5 shoulders)
Hit Boss = 8.77% (for boss I use worgen neck / ZA shoulders )
Gear I use now / Gear in Bank worth Mentioning / Next Planned Upgrade
Head = [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] / [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] / T5
Neck = [Worgen Claw Necklace] / [Necklace of the Deep] / [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
Shoulder = [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] / T5 / T6
Back = [Blood Knight War Cloak] / None / [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest = [Felstalker Breastplate] / [Arrow-fall Chestguard][Beast Lord Cuirass]S1 / [Ranger-General's Chestguard]
Wrist = Vindicators / [Master Assassin Wristwraps][Bands of the Celestial Archer] / [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
Gloves = [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] / [Gauntlets of Sniping] / T6
Waist = [Belt of the Black Eagle] / Vindicators [Bladeangel's Money Belt] / [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
Legs = [Void Reaver Greaves] / None / [Bow-stitched Leggings]
Feet = [Star-Strider Boots] / [Fiend Slayer Boots] / [Cobra-Lash Boots]
Ring1 = [Garona's Signet Ring] / Vindicators / [Ring of Lethality]
Ring2 = [Pathfinder's Band] / None / [Signet of Primal Wrath]
Trink1 = [Hourglass of the Unraveller] / [Dragonspine Trophy] / [Tsunami Talisman]
Trink2 = [Berserker's Call] / [Abacus of Violent Odds] / None
Bow = [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] / None / [Serpent Spine Longbow]
2h = [Trollbane] / None / [Halberd of Desolation]
Pet = Wind Serpent / Ravager, Scorpid / None
My DPS ranges in SSC / TK anywhere from 1150-1300.
Latency : 200-300ms
I use (1:1.5) Manual Rotation
Hasted: (1:1) Rotation
#showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I currently dominate the DPS meters in my guild. It's not uncommon to see me at about 1200 DPS / 12% dmg done on a lurker fight compared to our mages and melee at about 650-800 DPS / 6-9% dmg done. Basically what im saying is, very rarely am I #2 on the DPS charts, other than the obvious aoe fights like Solarian. (even then...) However, I still want to improve my game, because I know i can do better. Its not always about the meters though, that's why I picked Survival in the first place, otherwise I would still be BM. Judging from the meters I have a feeling I know what im doing, but I've come here to ask you guys for your advice, and some fine tuning. :P thx
Last edited by wispwisp : 03/06/08 at 4:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Shoulder = [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] / T5 / T6
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Back = [Blood Knight War Cloak] / None / [Thalassian Wildercloak]
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Wrist = Vindicators / [Master Assassin Wristwraps][Bands of the Celestial Archer] / [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Gloves = [Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation] / [Gauntlets of Sniping] / T6
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Waist = [Belt of the Black Eagle] / Vindicators [Bladeangel's Money Belt] / [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Legs = [Void Reaver Greaves] / None / [Bow-stitched Leggings]
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Ring1 = [Garona's Signet Ring] / Vindicators / [Ring of Lethality]
Ring2 = [Pathfinder's Band] / None / [Signet of Primal Wrath] |
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Trink1 = [Hourglass of the Unraveller] / [Dragonspine Trophy] / [Tsunami Talisman]
Trink2 = [Berserker's Call] / [Abacus of Violent Odds] / None |
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Bow = [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] / None / [Serpent Spine Longbow]
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
2h = [Trollbane] / None / [Halberd of Desolation]
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
#showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /script UIErrorsFrame:Show() |
Analysis of using KC has been done in this thread and it has been found to be a net decrease dps during the vast majority of fights.
Some other general comments about gear:
I'm not sure what loot system your guild uses but as survival I would actually recommend not taking any pieces of T5 gear, its easier to acquire the random pieces that less people want but provide higher overall DPS and much more agility for EW procs. T5 has a lot of hit rating a mp5, 2 stats which you can largely avoid as Survival.
S3 Helm > T5 helm
VR Greaves > T5 Legs
RGC > T5 Chest
Gauntlets of Sniping > T5 Gloves.
Save your dkp up for the bow or the cross class trinkets/rings that everyone wants.
Hope this helps!
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Vasili, great extensive post.
Could you explain me though the following recommendations:
Belt of Deep Shadow over Black Eagle
Bracers of the Pathfinder over Insidious Bands
Quickstrider Mocassins over Cobra-Lash
Regards
P.S
What do you think of the cheap'n easy to get Vindicator's Chain Sabatons for SV?
Could you explain me though the following recommendations:
Belt of Deep Shadow over Black Eagle
Bracers of the Pathfinder over Insidious Bands
Quickstrider Mocassins over Cobra-Lash
Regards
P.S
What do you think of the cheap'n easy to get Vindicator's Chain Sabatons for SV?
Last edited by Chanii : 03/06/08 at 12:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Chanii
Vasili, great extensive post.
Could you explain me though the following recommendations: Belt of Deep Shadow over Black Eagle Bracers of the Pathfinder over Insidious Bands Quickstrider Mocassins over Cobra-Lash Regards |
I did not recommend bracers of the pathfinder over insidious bands, insidious are the best survival bracers currently in the game. He had the pathfinder bracers listed as the next upgrade over bands of the celestial archer which is correct. Insidious are not available until later in progression.
Quickstrider are a big upgrade over cobra-lash, they provide a greater dps contribution as well as hit rating that cobra-lash lack.
This is all according to cheeky's spreadsheet, 0/20/41 build, 1:1.5 rotation, 3.0 speed weapon, lvl 73 target 7700 armor.
Edit: Missed the PS
While Vindicator's boots are not a terrible option, really the choice would be between them and fiend slayer boots in which case I would value the fiend slayer as superior. I used fiend slayer all the way up until I grabbed Quickstrider because of lack of hunter drops from solorian/vashj.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Chanii
Vasili, great extensive post.
Could you explain me though the following recommendations: Belt of Deep Shadow over Black Eagle Bracers of the Pathfinder over Insidious Bands Quickstrider Mocassins over Cobra-Lash Regards |
Right now, I can't even use my tier 6 gloves, because I'd fall way below the hit cap. You actually get into a situation where you need to get 2 massive slot upgrades to make use of either one (otherwise, one would be gimping your hit rating, the other one would be overkill). Technically, it's always best to be a bit over than a bit below.
So, with that in mind, the bonus agility and hit rating on the rogue belt make more sense than the intellect and stamina you're trading off. Don Alejandro is the best so far, indeed, but then again, you may never see one drop for a long time.
Now, the same thing can be said about Insidious Bands > Bracers of the Pathfinder; however, these are the best rogue bracers in the game, and it's quite unfair to get them over a rogue that doesn't have them; so, unless they drop like rain for you guys, this isn't exactly a realistic option. Hence, Pathfinder is the best available (emphasis on available)
The belts, have no such restrictions, since the Deep Shadows one is craftable, and as such you could get one at any time you have the mats, and Don Alejandro is clearly below Deep Shadows for rogues as it is now. Keep in mind, we've been farming tier 5 for 7 months I think, and we still haven't seen the leather belt plans drop.
Quickstrider over Cobra Lash is also a case of hit rating. You're losing some agility here, but again, it all comes down to not missing shots. Ideally, 2 of these, a halberd, and maybe a yellow gem or Tsunami talisman should be enough to cover the massive gap that switching tiers is going to cause.
EDIT: If I may suggest, and this is actually Zek's idea, [Twinblade of the Phoenix], as a weapon upgrade, if you can still get it. In itself, it's not a very good survival weapon. But the really good part about it comes when you can also get your [Bow-stitched Leggings]. Basically, if you gem both of these with 1x[Delicate Crimson Spinel], 1x[Glinting Pyrestone] and 1x[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst], you've already fulfilled your RED prerequisites, you're getting 40 agility out of 6 sockets, and can now safely stick Delicate Spinels into everything else, for a significant agility boost.
This may leave you just a bit below the hit cap, though, so make sure you got that covered first. If you get the Insidious bands, crafted leather belt and Quickstriders, you should be okay, though.
Last edited by Enova : 03/06/08 at 5:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Analysis of using KC has been done in this thread and it has been found to be a net decrease dps during the vast majority of fights. |
/cast Kill Command
/cast Arcane shot
This happens with one button push.
On an similar note, does anyone know about the kill command bug where you can cast specials but you cannot cast auto shot until you get another kill command?
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Originally Posted by Enova
Concerning Wunlastri:
While Whitefyst did point out what can be wrong with your gear, I have to say I don't see how it could account for your results; 850 dps on the average seems a bit low for your gear, but there's something I'd like to find out first; where do you get your figures? Secondly, you're standing at 37% crit pre BOK and LOTP, yet you've only got 2 points in Mortal shots; raidbuffed, during MT proc, 50% of your attacks would be crits, easily. You're losing a lot of damage on those criticals, and they add up. As the current hunter mechanics work, this is THE talent to maximize. Basically the reason why all builds are x/20+/x. I'd suggest skipping Imp Arcane shot entirely to maximize this and move the 2 remaining points to Rapid Killing in order not to get a freakish cooldown on Arcane Shot. On a 1:1.5 rotation, Arcane shot fits in quite nicely on a 6 second cooldown, and the 2 minutes off Rapid Fire grant you quite a bonus as well; Basically, it's the difference between using it once or twice during a 4 minute fight. |
I was in a rush to finish my reply since I had to leave, so I didn't have a chance to look at the spec myself and comment, but I agree with Enova in that 5/5 Mortal Shots is a must and how to remedy it. If you are doing a 1:1.5 Arcane only rotation with a macro, that is much more susceptible to problems and has much less benefits under haste. Plus, I prefer the arcane/multishot one rotation.
I also suggest 3/3 in EW instead of 3/3 TotH. It increases both yours and the raids DPS. I know that at high crit rates that it only results in 8-10% more uptime under ideal situations, but that 8-10% still equates to around 24-30 AP more on average EW proc (assuming around 1200 agi - which is around the goal) and roughly 72-90 raid DPS (with 10 physical DPS in raid including pets). If your buffed agility is only around 1000, this still equates to around 60-75 raid DPS. This is a significant amount, and this amount is difficult to obtain with 1 point in any other talent. Furthermore, this is the improvement under ideal, stand and fight situations. In less ideal situations, which as discussed in a earlier post is quite frequent, this 3rd point in EW increases your uptime even more with an even more improvement to your average EW proc than without it.
My final spec suggestion has to do with IHM and Efficiency in which you have 2/5 and 3/5. Having partial ranks in either is not really ideal. I would suggest going 5/5 in one or the other. If you are the only consistent hunter in your raids, then 5/5 IHM is a must. If you are not the only consistent hunter in your raids, then a BM should have 5/5 IHM ideally since they have less mana issues so that you can have 5/5 Efficiency.
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
Spec: 0/24/37
I chose to put my 5 left over points into Barrage because i found MT to have diminishing returns because im at about 45% crit durring raids. I know I can take the point out of Wyrvenn sting and put it into Efficiency, but my mana is fine. |
With that said and analysis I have done in the past, a MT build is generally superior to a barrage build.
If you do not currently use Cheeky's spreadsheet, suggest comparing the 2 specs yourself in Cheeky's for your gear and seeing which is better.
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
These are my current stats:
Self Buffed / Raid Buffed Agi = 874 / 1205 AP = 2218 / 2740 Crit = 34.48% / 48.63%. |
Concerning the gear choices, use Cheeky's to compare gear with checking out both personal DPS +/-s and raid DPS +/- via EW proc +/-s.
For the helm, agree with Vasilii. A3 helm is better than any of the helms you have listed. If you use the T6 gems in the T6 helm, it is slightly better though.
For neck, the Kael neck does have better personal DPS than the JC neck, but the JC neck has better EW impacts.
For shoulders, agree with Vasilii. Skip T5. T6 is a good upgrade though.
For cloak, agree with you both, but may want to look into acquiring one of the hit cloaks as backup if need more HR in the future.
For chest, the Ranger-General is the best chest until T6. If you can get that, skip T5. Until then, suggest as Vasilii stated to get the a3 one.
Agree with bracers.
For gloves, agree as well, expept that the [Fists of Mukoa] are actually higher personal DPS but less EW than T6 as another option.
For belt and legs, agree with Vasilii.
For boots, if you don't need the hit, stick with the Solarian boots. When gemmed properly, they and Cobra-lash are identical DPS, with the difference being more health on Cobra-lash versus mp5 on Star-strider.
For trinkets and rings, agree with both you and Vasilii.
For bow, the Vashj one is a big personal DPS gain, but since it has no agility, you lose total raid DPS. I would suggest [Legionkiller]. For me, it is only about 3.5 DPS less than Vashj bow, but almost 7 AP on EW proc better for significantly better raid DPS.
For melee, unless you need the hit, Trollbane is better than the halbred when gemmed properly. Another option is 2 [Netherbane]
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
1st off, u have been great help with your posts.
I plan to respec back to 0/20/41 for the MT. I guess i underestimated it. i read somewhere than MT is about equal to just under 5% crit.
so i should switch to something like...
Isn't this the 3:2 rotation.
Does it work for Survival too? cuz i thought it was just for BM.
or should i stay with 1:1.5 Manual Weaving as Surv.
I use AutoHotKey so i just hold my macro button down while I spam Multi / Arcane when available. It saves my fingers :P
u also said
I thought Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation > Gauntlets of Sniping for Survival.. at least that is what cheekys shows.
Doesnt a 3.0s bow work better with a 1:1.5 rotation than a 2.9s?
For some reason, cheekys puts Trollbane > Dagger of Bad Mojo x2. i checked the enchants. i must be doing something wrong.
I plan to respec back to 0/20/41 for the MT. I guess i underestimated it. i read somewhere than MT is about equal to just under 5% crit.
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I would recommend not using a castsequence macro, they are heavily affected by latency and you will see a big drop in dps anytime you are .2 seconds or above. Analysis of using KC has been done in this thread and it has been found to be a net decrease dps during the vast majority of fights. |
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Does it work for Survival too? cuz i thought it was just for BM.
or should i stay with 1:1.5 Manual Weaving as Surv.
I use AutoHotKey so i just hold my macro button down while I spam Multi / Arcane when available. It saves my fingers :P
u also said
| Gauntlets of Sniping > T5 Gloves. |
| For bow, the Vashj one is a big personal DPS gain, but since it has no agility, you lose total raid DPS. I would suggest [Legionkiller]. For me, it is only about 3.5 DPS less than Vashj bow, but almost 7 AP on EW proc better for significantly better raid DPS. |
For some reason, cheekys puts Trollbane > Dagger of Bad Mojo x2. i checked the enchants. i must be doing something wrong.
Last edited by wispwisp : 03/06/08 at 7:05 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hello,
We are currently trying to figure out one of our hunter's Survival Spec for raids...
here is her Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
But We are thinking of resepeccing her to:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
In an Attempt to make her more versatile, as contribute More DPS than she currently does...
Right now I have her using this Shot MAcro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
**EDIT**
Would we gain more DPS/Speed by Throwing in the Sound=0 COmmand Prompt?
********
I know some of her gear needs attention, but we are slowly but surely getting there..
We are just barely starting 25 mans, and do not have ZA on Farm...
Everything as it sits Is kind of a hodge podge,a ndwe need to reign it in and get a little bit of organization... So any Help you could throw at me would be greatly appreciated
We are currently trying to figure out one of our hunter's Survival Spec for raids...
here is her Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
But We are thinking of resepeccing her to:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
In an Attempt to make her more versatile, as contribute More DPS than she currently does...
Right now I have her using this Shot MAcro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
**EDIT**
Would we gain more DPS/Speed by Throwing in the Sound=0 COmmand Prompt?
********
I know some of her gear needs attention, but we are slowly but surely getting there..
We are just barely starting 25 mans, and do not have ZA on Farm...
Everything as it sits Is kind of a hodge podge,a ndwe need to reign it in and get a little bit of organization... So any Help you could throw at me would be greatly appreciated
Last edited by nfmmalice : 03/06/08 at 7:46 PM.
Those gear posts a few people have been posting above are great! Nice way to look at each slot at a glance. However do not neglect [Shadowmaster's Boots], which I believe are the best in the game (for all hunter specs).
(if only another one dropped... our rogues/enhancement have them already, then they decided to stop dropping )
(if only another one dropped... our rogues/enhancement have them already, then they decided to stop dropping )
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I recently started playing WoW again, so I might not to up-to-date yet.
Instead of playing the usual 1.5:1 rotation, I'm trying a 2:1 rotation using only steady/auto shot. I did some tests at Dr. Boom today (got 4/5 t6 yesterday, which imo is necessary for this) and it seems to work well so far.
I've read some posts of people saying there is a 1.5 seconds global cooldown, but I sometimes manage to shoot 2 steadys in less than 2.54 seconds (27 haste using a 3.0 bow). I guess the quiver also reduce the global cooldown. If this happens, there is a high chance that my macro starts a 3rd steady ~0.1 seconds before my auto goes off. Due to that little bug, I'm losing about 5% of my DPS.
Here's the macro I'm using:
Using a cast sequence is not possible for a 2:1 rotation, since it creates a small lag (~0.3 seconds).
Any ideas for a clean 2:1 rotation macro?
edit: Using more haste (95+) fixed it for me, but there should be a better way.
Instead of playing the usual 1.5:1 rotation, I'm trying a 2:1 rotation using only steady/auto shot. I did some tests at Dr. Boom today (got 4/5 t6 yesterday, which imo is necessary for this) and it seems to work well so far.
I've read some posts of people saying there is a 1.5 seconds global cooldown, but I sometimes manage to shoot 2 steadys in less than 2.54 seconds (27 haste using a 3.0 bow). I guess the quiver also reduce the global cooldown. If this happens, there is a high chance that my macro starts a 3rd steady ~0.1 seconds before my auto goes off. Due to that little bug, I'm losing about 5% of my DPS.
Here's the macro I'm using:
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Any ideas for a clean 2:1 rotation macro?
edit: Using more haste (95+) fixed it for me, but there should be a better way.
Last edited by Rasher : 03/07/08 at 9:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by nfmmalice
Hello,
We are currently trying to figure out one of our hunter's Survival Spec for raids... here is her Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory But We are thinking of resepeccing her to: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator In an Attempt to make her more versatile, as contribute More DPS than she currently does... Right now I have her using this Shot MAcro: #showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() **EDIT** Would we gain more DPS/Speed by Throwing in the Sound=0 COmmand Prompt? ******** I know some of her gear needs attention, but we are slowly but surely getting there.. We are just barely starting 25 mans, and do not have ZA on Farm... Everything as it sits Is kind of a hodge podge,a ndwe need to reign it in and get a little bit of organization... So any Help you could throw at me would be greatly appreciated |
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Originally Posted by Needhamizer
Can you point me to a thread that would show this better? I realize its not the most efficient in damage per mana but the way I implement it I feel like it is free damage. I use it in my specials. The meat of my macro is as such-
/cast Kill Command /cast Arcane shot This happens with one button push. |
Next few answers are my personal observations and should not be taken as facts. (apart from how KC is modeled in spreadsheet).
1. What happens with mana usage if you do 1:1.5 + KC when on CD.?
You run out faster. Witch can be serious problem before you get geared up and got used to managing you mana pool.
2. What happens with 1:1.5 rotation if you use KC?
You will most likely mess it up (doing less damage). Especially if you macro KC and in such case 1. (up) will happen even faster.
3. Is there any possible way to use KC as Survival with 1:1.5 rotation?
Yes. 1:1.5 has openings where KC could be used. (BUT same GDC opening is better used on MendPet, Hunters Mark, Trinket/Racial Activation, Scorpid Sting and now even Serpent Sting)
4. How frequent are this "openings"?
From experience once or twice per 20 seconds. Depends on how "perfect" execution of rotation you have, coupled with your lag and reaction time. Most times its once for me.
It looks liker: steady+multi, auto, steady, auto, steady+arcane, auto, steady+opening, auto, steady...
5. Is Cheeky's Spreadsheet correct on theoretical KC damage gain for Survival(any) hunters.
No. Because it would be modeling hell. Entire 1:1.5 rotation is "chaotic". So Cheeky has modeled KC with no GDC. Just frequency based on your critical hits (added in v12 of spreadsheet). And that is causing KC to show bigger DPS gain than actual.
For young hunters to try 1:1.5 with KC... Sure TRY, maybe they figure out something new (like 4xt3.5 set bonus)
But I recommend that they do it after they have played with 1:1.5 rotation for some time.
Edit: I say GDC for KC, because it's approximately how much it costs you (KC delays auto).
And I remembered, some people had some success with "auto. KC/Steady. auto. KC/Steady+Arcane, auto..." witch is still unexplored by me. Mostly because I use "Auto shot, Steady Shot + LB" macro and weave all other things manually.
Zek's Testing
Been doing KC/Arcane, KC/Multi-Shot, KC/Scorpid for 2 raids now. And I noticed drop in DPS on all but RoS fight (~-50-200 drop). RoS was 200 bigger than usual.
Didn't watch whole Fraps or analyzed shot frequency on WWS yet.
Always had Shaman in group for GoA, Spring, Mana Tide. Used MoC + Alchemy Stone. Had 70ms / 30 or 60
fps(30=frapsing). Pet was Wind Serpent without Cobra Reflexes.
Macros used:
1. Castsequence macro for Auto, Steady + LB
2. castrandom KC + cast Arcane
3. castrandom KC + cast Multi-Shot
4. castrandom KC + cast Scorpid Sting
Things I dare to say without even looking at WWS/Fraps.
* Was using Viper more
* Drank more Fel Mana pots.
* Used Scorpid Sting less (far less)
Bigger mana issues... Without SP group adding KC to rotation requires near perfect mana management via consumables. And short fights.
* Clobbered more shots
It's observable with eye. KC sometimes "lags", it looks like macro button activates twice. I also had more "macro stuck" moments on primary macro.
Rough DPS numbers from yesterday Council (recount data, no wws yet).
Pet DPS = ~154 (quite normal Survival pet DPS)
65% was white = ~100 dps
18% was LB (much resisted due 250 chromatic aura) = ~28 dps
17% was KC (Shatterer has "low" 6200armor (7440 when he has devotion aura), had 5xsunder, FF(30-40% uptime) and CoR up) = ~26 dps
If you are willing to include KC in your 1:1.5 rotation as Survival for +1/4 of your pet white dps well you be the judge.
To be 100% sure I plan to do some more testing (whole Hyall, BT up to RoS).
I don't see me using it anywhere but on RoS as Survival for now. It's simply to much mana.
Well maybe I'm doing something wrong. Any suggestions?
Edit:
Best result on Council (KC = 33 dps)
Man this is going to take up space...
How do I save a timed string on recount? The main reason I never boom test is because I can't figure out how to seperate samples and look over them later.
What really annoys me is watching rogues outdps me, but that is neither here nor there. Though I wonder how much does a rogue buff the group/raid? I know next to nil about them and just always live under the assumption that they are pure takers in that sense.
1000ms =.1 latency. Got it. This I will never forget. HR on the other hand....is 90...something.
Whytefyst;
Nature of fights isn't the issue as I am pretty skilled on behavior for them all aside from Sharahz who I always die to during FA.
Modeling of the target may have something to do with it, I assume changing target is under settings but I would have to know the values of the targets to change armor. I don't recall where to find armor values for specific bosses.
While other actions may knock off some DPS, I really don't believe that the effect should be so pronounced. However, I will admit that I still do not have a concrete shot rotation and assume THIS to be my most pronounced problem. I am mediocrely skilled at timing and am quick to stop focusing intently on it to attend to other duties (MD, aggro watch, pet main, scorpid, etc)
One thing I see myself doing is playing too cautiously. When I see that I've passed 90% of atanks threat, I throttle myself hard since I have pulled in the past. What is the range when the 150% rule takes place and how often do you aggro dump? Every 30 seconds or when you pass the tank's threat?
I have all of my buffs turned off and always will atleast until I am satisfied with my constant level of dps. Holy crap, that means I am even worse off than I thought I was. (Im going to go kill myself now) A little low you say? You are far too kind.
When it comes to gear I have really bad luck. Most if not all of my best upgrades scream BM and I loathe the spec, which makes trying to play it well an exercise in pain.
I have a neck of the deep, but no Kael neck or cloak yet. So, I really should slot in a blue instead? That logic confuses me slightly, but I can see where you are coming from.
The cloak is staying until I can replace that hit. Saying I do get the cloak off of shade, if we are a caster heavy raid would Teron's be better still since I would be helping only 5-6 including myself or not? I just got the Quickstrider Moccassins and could finally drop the waraxe in favor of netherbane/blade of infamy, but gear is not the main issue I think.
Enova;
Turns out I do about 1050 during boss fights (atleast on Rage Winterchill), which is somewhat satisfying. Yeh, I don't reset meters, but boss fights are done with raid buffs, meaning I am still somewhat low (exacts can be found out by me actually plugging in buffs after I make this post).
What is the 'ideal benchmark'? I am using recount but will admit I know very little about the addon.
Here's a question, you expect 1000 easily, is this with no buffs?
Pet; Aside from Rain of Fire, Death and Decay, and Illidan firebombs, my Wind Serpet does not die. LB is inside of a macro as is KC, but I am re-realizing as I am not BM and this is not a Ravager KC is not that great of an idea.
I really think it is the rotation. Call me slow or whatever, but so far I have only fully understood the 1:1 rotation. Special, Auto, rinse repeat. 1:1.5 as far as I can tell is the same as 2:3 which basically means special, auto, special, auto, special. How is this any different from 1:1 besides what you start with? I assumed this meant weaving in an auto (thus why I chose IAS over MS) at the end of a steady, before the auto fires.
I change nothing when DST procs, believing the speed increase to not be enough to cause clipping. This is probably something I should watch more intently, but kind of don't have time to stare at a bar when the buff shows up.
Geez /wrist, don't fucking talk about the shoulders. Talk about messages from RNG to suffer. That plus the leather supremus chest just made me suck up BM for awhile and I don't want to talk about that time in my life. The belt is replaced with bladeangel's money belt aside from boss fights. Should I just ignore the 15 hit (dropping me to 80 HR before surefooted)?
RK vs IAS. Why doesn't RK improvements show up in the SS? I always chose it last because the bonus seemed to throw off my rota...tion, which I never changed in the first place so there's one blatant error. How should my rotation switch up during haste/RF? As for short fights like that, I live under the assumption popping RF too early is asking to pull aggro. Thus another reason behind me not caring to take RK.
I raid with a WS, don't downrank because I have enough gold to always have pots (wtb fel mana injector)
The spec and gear are now different from when I first posted the query. Replace SR neck with Deep neck to see what I intend to work with usually.
What really annoys me is watching rogues outdps me, but that is neither here nor there. Though I wonder how much does a rogue buff the group/raid? I know next to nil about them and just always live under the assumption that they are pure takers in that sense.
1000ms =.1 latency. Got it. This I will never forget. HR on the other hand....is 90...something.
Whytefyst;
Nature of fights isn't the issue as I am pretty skilled on behavior for them all aside from Sharahz who I always die to during FA.
Modeling of the target may have something to do with it, I assume changing target is under settings but I would have to know the values of the targets to change armor. I don't recall where to find armor values for specific bosses.
While other actions may knock off some DPS, I really don't believe that the effect should be so pronounced. However, I will admit that I still do not have a concrete shot rotation and assume THIS to be my most pronounced problem. I am mediocrely skilled at timing and am quick to stop focusing intently on it to attend to other duties (MD, aggro watch, pet main, scorpid, etc)
One thing I see myself doing is playing too cautiously. When I see that I've passed 90% of atanks threat, I throttle myself hard since I have pulled in the past. What is the range when the 150% rule takes place and how often do you aggro dump? Every 30 seconds or when you pass the tank's threat?
I have all of my buffs turned off and always will atleast until I am satisfied with my constant level of dps. Holy crap, that means I am even worse off than I thought I was. (Im going to go kill myself now) A little low you say? You are far too kind.
When it comes to gear I have really bad luck. Most if not all of my best upgrades scream BM and I loathe the spec, which makes trying to play it well an exercise in pain.
I have a neck of the deep, but no Kael neck or cloak yet. So, I really should slot in a blue instead? That logic confuses me slightly, but I can see where you are coming from.
The cloak is staying until I can replace that hit. Saying I do get the cloak off of shade, if we are a caster heavy raid would Teron's be better still since I would be helping only 5-6 including myself or not? I just got the Quickstrider Moccassins and could finally drop the waraxe in favor of netherbane/blade of infamy, but gear is not the main issue I think.
Enova;
Turns out I do about 1050 during boss fights (atleast on Rage Winterchill), which is somewhat satisfying. Yeh, I don't reset meters, but boss fights are done with raid buffs, meaning I am still somewhat low (exacts can be found out by me actually plugging in buffs after I make this post).
What is the 'ideal benchmark'? I am using recount but will admit I know very little about the addon.
Here's a question, you expect 1000 easily, is this with no buffs?
Pet; Aside from Rain of Fire, Death and Decay, and Illidan firebombs, my Wind Serpet does not die. LB is inside of a macro as is KC, but I am re-realizing as I am not BM and this is not a Ravager KC is not that great of an idea.
I really think it is the rotation. Call me slow or whatever, but so far I have only fully understood the 1:1 rotation. Special, Auto, rinse repeat. 1:1.5 as far as I can tell is the same as 2:3 which basically means special, auto, special, auto, special. How is this any different from 1:1 besides what you start with? I assumed this meant weaving in an auto (thus why I chose IAS over MS) at the end of a steady, before the auto fires.
I change nothing when DST procs, believing the speed increase to not be enough to cause clipping. This is probably something I should watch more intently, but kind of don't have time to stare at a bar when the buff shows up.
Geez /wrist, don't fucking talk about the shoulders. Talk about messages from RNG to suffer. That plus the leather supremus chest just made me suck up BM for awhile and I don't want to talk about that time in my life. The belt is replaced with bladeangel's money belt aside from boss fights. Should I just ignore the 15 hit (dropping me to 80 HR before surefooted)?
RK vs IAS. Why doesn't RK improvements show up in the SS? I always chose it last because the bonus seemed to throw off my rota...tion, which I never changed in the first place so there's one blatant error. How should my rotation switch up during haste/RF? As for short fights like that, I live under the assumption popping RF too early is asking to pull aggro. Thus another reason behind me not caring to take RK.
I raid with a WS, don't downrank because I have enough gold to always have pots (wtb fel mana injector)
The spec and gear are now different from when I first posted the query. Replace SR neck with Deep neck to see what I intend to work with usually.
|
Originally Posted by Wunlastri
RK vs IAS. Why doesn't RK improvements show up in the SS? I always chose it last because the bonus seemed to throw off my rota...tion, which I never changed in the first place so there's one blatant error. How should my rotation switch up during haste/RF? As for short fights like that, I live under the assumption popping RF too early is asking to pull aggro. Thus another reason behind me not caring to take RK.
|
RK + Readiness means 5 RFs in longer fights.
IAS does zero for you if you are using a 1:1.5 rotation (arcane + multi)
It sounds like you are playing a bit conservatively. I usually MD the boss to tank, go through 2-4 shot rotations riding very close to the tank, then I FD, pop RF, Readiness, RF again, then FD and do 1:1.5. I find it easier to maintain solid dps if I grab that initial jump. Plus blowing your CDs early means they can be ready again if its a longer encounter. I wouldn't apply the same logic to your sex life.
Do you use Omen? Our whole guild uses and its nice because then you just get a big red warning if you get close to the tank, I don't even watch the meter aside from the initial push... I just wait for the warning to pop and then use FD accordingly. Our tanks are very good and TPS is a high priority for them so usually I'm FDing 3 times, maybe 4.
Illidan bow or Archimonde bow for a survival hunter -- I'm not sure if it is worth me upgrading. Any help?
As compared to...what? Valanos? Nah, stick with the BoE blue. Against each other Archi has the best dps. So if you are good on mana that's the choice du jour.
Vas; Yeh I use omen and I do play way conservative.
Vas; Yeh I use omen and I do play way conservative.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
delete please.
Last edited by Snipehunter : 03/07/08 at 10:42 PM.
This is a serious question: Did you post all that just to get your ego stroked? Because any surv hunter accomplishing in the 3rd spot on any given fight either has one of three things.
a) better gear than the rest of the raid
b ) a better raid compo than the rest of the raid
c) bad players in the rest of your raid.
As a surv hunter on any given fight.... I rarely finish above 6-7 on some fights, and pull 2-4 on fights like Illidan.
Survival is a perfect balance between personal dps output and an increase in raid output.
If your sacrifice of your S3 helm for the T5 helm increases raid dps more than your personal, then go T5 Imo.
a) better gear than the rest of the raid
b ) a better raid compo than the rest of the raid
c) bad players in the rest of your raid.
As a surv hunter on any given fight.... I rarely finish above 6-7 on some fights, and pull 2-4 on fights like Illidan.
Survival is a perfect balance between personal dps output and an increase in raid output.
If your sacrifice of your S3 helm for the T5 helm increases raid dps more than your personal, then go T5 Imo.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Exbox
This is a serious question: Did you post all that just to get your ego stroked? Because any surv hunter accomplishing in the 3rd spot on any given fight either has one of three things.
a) better gear than the rest of the raid b ) a better raid compo than the rest of the raid c) bad players in the rest of your raid. As a surv hunter on any given fight.... I rarely finish above 6-7 on some fights, and pull 2-4 on fights like Illidan. Survival is a perfect balance between personal dps output and an increase in raid output. If your sacrifice of your S3 helm for the T5 helm increases raid dps more than your personal, then go T5 Imo. |
*Edited for capitalizing the first word of each sentence.
Last edited by Snipehunter : 03/08/08 at 9:42 PM.
Has anyone any thoughts on how the large amounts of haste gear in Sunwell is going to affect Survival hunters. Since more and more physical dps classes will be stacking these haste items, will we be pushed to maximizing our agility vs personal dps?
Do we need a new look at what the new formula for agility to raid dps might change to?
Right now I've been collecting the very best agility gear to socket with spinels when badges buy them. However, I wanted to know if I should even bother doing this, or just keep with what I have.
Do we need a new look at what the new formula for agility to raid dps might change to?
Right now I've been collecting the very best agility gear to socket with spinels when badges buy them. However, I wanted to know if I should even bother doing this, or just keep with what I have.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
| This is my 1st Post, and I would like to know if my gear selection is correct, or if I can improve my personal dps by using some of the gear I have in the bank. I would also like to know if the Next Planned Upgrade column is correct for Survival hunters. I am passing on certain gear (like t5 gloves / legs for example) so the BM hunters in the guild can get better use out of it |
Personally I use [Bracers of the Pathfinder] and [Thalassian Wildercloak] in those slots. The other main problem when determining items using Cheeky's is that there is no support for the Survival and or MM specs 2:1 rotation (I understand that Cheeky is BM so his focus doesn't lie with us SV + MM Hunters)
This affects some items eg [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] becomes far better than shown in Cheeky's when using the /cast macros.
Complete DPS:
Pet DPS 250.03 14.48%
Hunter DPS 1477.02 85.52%
Total DPS 1727.04
Pet:
Wind Serpent
Pet Abilities in order of priority:
Bite
Lightning Breath
Race:
Troll
Professions:
Not optimised
Main Hand:
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]
Greater Agility (One Hand)
Off Hand:
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]
Greater Agility (One Hand)
Helmet:
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Neck:
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Back:
[Cloak of Fiends]
Greater Agility
Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
Exceptional Stats
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald]
Wrists:
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
Assault
Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
Superior Agility
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Belt:
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Legs:
[Gronnstalker's Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Feet:
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
Dexterity
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Rings:
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
Stats
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
Stats
Trinkets:
[Berserker's Call]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
Ranged Weapon:
[Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
Quiver/Pouch:
[Quiver of a Thousand Feathers]
Ammo:
[Timeless Arrow]
Last edited by Tiberium : 03/08/08 at 5:51 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Here's a question, you expect 1000 easily, is this with no buffs?
|
As a a general observation, I found that the amount of unbuffed dps the spreadsheet shows is pretty close to the buffed amount me (and actually the other hunters I've tried testing this on) dish out on the field. Basically. raidbuff gain ~ movement and incapacitating effects loss. It's not exactly an academic observation, but it's still a way to quantify the dps loss from spreadsheets to in game mechanics.
A wind serpent is pretty much the best dps pet you can have as a survival. GFTT comes into play here, and, along with the massive crit ratio survival hunters achieve, it gives you a very steady, almost limitless supply of focus for your pet to spam LB.
That being the case then I am not as bad off as I seemed for Rage.
Generally speaking, I avoid MS due to mana costs as well as it's lag on timing feeling clunky/clippy. Assuming the lack of a need for CC carefulness, should I make myself start using MS more or is sticking with ArcShot when it's up the best idea?
Generally speaking, I avoid MS due to mana costs as well as it's lag on timing feeling clunky/clippy. Assuming the lack of a need for CC carefulness, should I make myself start using MS more or is sticking with ArcShot when it's up the best idea?
Hello!
I am a really undergeared than most of you, and i have no time/chance to collect those items you have equipped. I rolled Survival specc as my very first one i ever played, i and i like it very much 2 years ago now, but as a really casual player im playing a small casual Guild. We have Karazhan on farm, and we have some trys at Gruul, Void Raver, and ZA yet.
Here is my armoury link: The World of Warcraft Armory
If any of you have time to check it, and/or make some suggestions for me how can i upgrade my gear/stats from Gruul/ZA/Void or even Badges, im will be very happy.
Thank you for reading! Best regards: Petshak
I am a really undergeared than most of you, and i have no time/chance to collect those items you have equipped. I rolled Survival specc as my very first one i ever played, i and i like it very much 2 years ago now, but as a really casual player im playing a small casual Guild. We have Karazhan on farm, and we have some trys at Gruul, Void Raver, and ZA yet.
Here is my armoury link: The World of Warcraft Armory
If any of you have time to check it, and/or make some suggestions for me how can i upgrade my gear/stats from Gruul/ZA/Void or even Badges, im will be very happy.
Thank you for reading! Best regards: Petshak
First post on Ej
My guild and I are new rerolls back at the start of 2.3, and we have advanced fairly fast through content and we are looking at making our first attempts at Vashj and Kael this week.
I am currently spec'd for BM along with the 2 other hunters in our raids, but soon I'm going to spec into SV for raid utility. Only thing holding me back is gear and agility availability. So my question is, when I spec, should I opt for the Arcanite Steam-Pistol over Vashj bow, due to my racial as a dwarf toon? According to Cheeky's it shows an increase in overall DPS and of course crit chance over Vashj's. If I'm not entirely dumb, the only drawback to the 2 would be the speeds, but they aren't that much of a difference.. or are they?
Thanks
Guild NewsHush - Guild Launch Guild Hosting
My guild and I are new rerolls back at the start of 2.3, and we have advanced fairly fast through content and we are looking at making our first attempts at Vashj and Kael this week.
I am currently spec'd for BM along with the 2 other hunters in our raids, but soon I'm going to spec into SV for raid utility. Only thing holding me back is gear and agility availability. So my question is, when I spec, should I opt for the Arcanite Steam-Pistol over Vashj bow, due to my racial as a dwarf toon? According to Cheeky's it shows an increase in overall DPS and of course crit chance over Vashj's. If I'm not entirely dumb, the only drawback to the 2 would be the speeds, but they aren't that much of a difference.. or are they?
Thanks
Guild NewsHush - Guild Launch Guild Hosting
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Wunlastri
That being the case then I am not as bad off as I seemed for Rage.
Generally speaking, I avoid MS due to mana costs as well as it's lag on timing feeling clunky/clippy. Assuming the lack of a need for CC carefulness, should I make myself start using MS more or is sticking with ArcShot when it's up the best idea? |
Personally, I use MS rank 1 for most fights, but on stuff like Teron or ROS, I top rank it, because mana is less important.
EDIT: CC awareness will soon be a moot point, anyway, given that it will no longer break targets under break on damage type crowd control - possibly unless specifically targeted.
Also, rephrased a little bit.
Last edited by Enova : 03/09/08 at 8:20 PM.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Hello all first post. Been a avid reader for awhile. Anyway, I will be going survival soon this is my 3:2 macro I will use situationally in battle. Problem is I am getting spam on my screen in regards to Lightning Breath either not being ready, or the pet does not have enough focus. This is my first wind serpent so I am not sure if this is just the nature of the beast, you would think the /script clear part of the macro would handle this. Any suggestions are appreciated.
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Hello all first post. Been a avid reader for awhile. Anyway, I will be going survival soon this is my 3:2 macro I will use situationally in battle. Problem is I am getting spam on my screen in regards to Lightning Breath either not being ready, or the pet does not have enough focus. This is my first wind serpent so I am not sure if this is just the nature of the beast, you would think the /script clear part of the macro would handle this. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Have the same problem here.
I think all we need is to add the line "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" on the top of the macro.
Right?
Edit:
Yup, it did help.
I think all we need is to add the line "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" on the top of the macro.
Right?
Edit:
Yup, it did help.
Last edited by Chanii : 03/09/08 at 7:35 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Chanii
Have the same problem here.
I think all we need is to add the line "/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()" on the top of the macro. Right? Edit: Yup, it did help. |
I'm guessing Hide() is a toggle to hide it permanently, and Show() brings it back on permanently. Clear() would just clear any current errors from the frame (after they have already appeared).
So if you Hide() the error frame, perform the macro (and get the errors, but they're hidden), then Clear() those errors, then Show() the frame again when the macro is done.
That's just my assumption, I'd give it a shot in-game, but no WoW at work. I'm sure some more UI-competent people could correct us.
{edit} so the macro would be:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
*macro goes here*
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Quick question, I have seen some thoughts on group setup, but had some questions on survival hunters as we are trying to integrate one into our raid group before Sunwell hits.
Our typical melee group runs with an enhancement shaman (myself), 2 rogues, 1 MS warrior and 1 fury warrior. We also have 2 BM hunters outside the melee group and a feral druid that tanks when needed. We usually run with one or two shadow priests (which I have heard are sometimes needed for survival?).
What would the optimal group setup be for a survival hunter?
Also, how much dps should a survival hunter be doing in their best gear set? Although the main reason I want a survival hunter is for expose weakness and imp hunters mark, I want them to do good damage compared to the rest of the group.
I have seen a lot of conflicting information about just how much dps they are capable of and also about the group set up.
If I can get some informative answers on this or a link to this information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!
Our typical melee group runs with an enhancement shaman (myself), 2 rogues, 1 MS warrior and 1 fury warrior. We also have 2 BM hunters outside the melee group and a feral druid that tanks when needed. We usually run with one or two shadow priests (which I have heard are sometimes needed for survival?).
What would the optimal group setup be for a survival hunter?
Also, how much dps should a survival hunter be doing in their best gear set? Although the main reason I want a survival hunter is for expose weakness and imp hunters mark, I want them to do good damage compared to the rest of the group.
I have seen a lot of conflicting information about just how much dps they are capable of and also about the group set up.
If I can get some informative answers on this or a link to this information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!
A decent survival hunter will do more dps than you and your arms warrior, but around 200 dps less than 'the best' BM
hunter. Get one of your BM guys to try it out.
The best gear is almost identical for all hunter specs as nothing is specifically itemised for Survival anyway.
hunter. Get one of your BM guys to try it out.
The best gear is almost identical for all hunter specs as nothing is specifically itemised for Survival anyway.
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
A decent survival hunter will do more dps than you and your arms warrior, but around 200 dps less than 'the best' BM
hunter. Get one of your BM guys to try it out. The best gear is almost identical for all hunter specs as nothing is specifically itemised for Survival anyway. |
I guess what I am saying is, if I am going to put a hunter in the melee group, it would be one of the BM hunters, so where should I ideally set the survival hunter? I have had one of our BM hunters go survival, but he prefers BM and I would rather have him stay BM and just fill another ranged spot with a survival hunter.
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Enova
EDIT: CC awareness will soon be a moot point, anyway, given that it will no longer break targets under break on damage type crowd control - possibly unless specifically targeted.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Wait what?
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For multi shot, that means it would either jump to 3 uncontroled targets, if there are enough to go around, or it will only fire at one or two targets if there aren't enough eligible targets.
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Originally Posted by Sufferings
Quick question, I have seen some thoughts on group setup, but had some questions on survival hunters as we are trying to integrate one into our raid group before Sunwell hits.
Our typical melee group runs with an enhancement shaman (myself), 2 rogues, 1 MS warrior and 1 fury warrior. We also have 2 BM hunters outside the melee group and a feral druid that tanks when needed. We usually run with one or two shadow priests (which I have heard are sometimes needed for survival?). What would the optimal group setup be for a survival hunter? Also, how much dps should a survival hunter be doing in their best gear set? Although the main reason I want a survival hunter is for expose weakness and imp hunters mark, I want them to do good damage compared to the rest of the group. I have seen a lot of conflicting information about just how much dps they are capable of and also about the group set up. If I can get some informative answers on this or a link to this information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! |
Theory.
Unfortunately, as much as we survival hunters would love it, raids rarely run with two enhancement shamans and the raid's dps benefits better from WF in the melee group than GoA for the Surv Hunter. This is especially true with your setup (MS warrior), Fury warriors tend to be rage capped and use Heroic Strike, thus no white damage from MH to turn into WF procs.
My Opinion
It seems the best combination you can come up with with the classes you've mentioned would be putting all 3 hunters together with the feral druid.
An alternative is swapping out the rogue into the group with the 3 hunters and putting the feral druid into the melee group. It'll suck for the hunters but will probably be of greatest raid benefit. (This is only a good solution if the rogue is not combat swords, if Rogue is combat swords then WF is a big increase in dps).
As for the Surv hunter's dps, it very much depends on the fight. There's few fights where you can get a really good representation of a hunter's dps because we are all of ranged, melee and mana users so there is rarely a fight that doesn't gimp our dps in one way or another. We're working through MH/BT at the moment (4/5, 3/9) so my gear is probably slightly behind but comparable. On Shade of Akama (probably the best place to test dps if you put the Surv hunter up top on the channelers, also good for synergy with the melee there) I can output about 1300 dps, there will be others who can do better than this no doubt.
In our raids we generally have 2-3 hunters and 4-5 melee + a feral druid (often dps for bosses) which makes for a lot of physical damage. When I'm in the raid it's almost like having another dps (works out at about 800 effective dps across the raid I think) because of EW/IHM. So you can probably attribute another few hundred dps to the Surv hunter interms of the raid (though that's no reason to slack).
A Surv Hunter should probably be top dps on Azgalor and Supremus. Those fights are perfect for them. If they're not top or close they're probably doing something wrong.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
As for the Surv hunter's dps, it very much depends on the fight. There's few fights where you can get a really good representation of a hunter's dps because we are all of ranged, melee and mana users so there is rarely a fight that doesn't gimp our dps in one way or another. We're working through MH/BT at the moment (4/5, 3/9) so my gear is probably slightly behind but comparable. On Shade of Akama (probably the best place to test dps if you put the Surv hunter up top on the channelers, also good for synergy with the melee there) I can output about 1300 dps, there will be others who can do better than this no doubt.
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Many factors like amount of target switches, time spent setting up and executing MDs, group composition ect. all play into it. Where other ranged classes have a DPS window that differs by maybe 250, mine atm is anywhere from 950-1450. A lot of what a SV Hunter brings to the raid is not going to show up on his Recount data on any particular fight.
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Originally Posted by Adenhart
Ironically enough the largest problem I've faced since clearing Hyjal and going 4/5 BT thusfar, is pet survivability. The Tier 6 encounters for the most part are not pet friendly whatsoever. It's true on fights like Azgalor personal DPS is very high, but one RoF kills my poor wind serpent- or at least makes me use 2 GCDs Mend Petting him back to health before sending him back in. The only fight in MH that isn't a problem is Kaz, all the others I know I'm losing a lot of DPS micro-managing my pet's health. I agree Shade is one of the few fights that would be a good benchmark of DPS, but even then you're switching targets a lot
Many factors like amount of target switches, time spent setting up and executing MDs, group composition ect. all play into it. Where other ranged classes have a DPS window that differs by maybe 250, mine atm is anywhere from 950-1450. A lot of what a SV Hunter brings to the raid is not going to show up on his Recount data on any particular fight. |
I'd agree that the target switching on Shade makes a slightly poor comparison but it's mostly, if not over-compensated by your multishot hitting 3 targets usually (especially once some sorcerors arrive).
I'll also agree, a Survival Hunter's benefit to the raid is in their utility (especially if readiness specced) but their personal damage should not be ignored. They are, after all, a dps class and although their spec is "sacrificial" they can't be considered a "gimped" spec by any means.
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Originally Posted by Adenhart
Ironically enough the largest problem I've faced since clearing Hyjal and going 4/5 BT thusfar, is pet survivability. The Tier 6 encounters for the most part are not pet friendly whatsoever. It's true on fights like Azgalor personal DPS is very high, but one RoF kills my poor wind serpent- or at least makes me use 2 GCDs Mend Petting him back to health before sending him back in. The only fight in MH that isn't a problem is Kaz, all the others I know I'm losing a lot of DPS micro-managing my pet's health. I agree Shade is one of the few fights that would be a good benchmark of DPS, but even then you're switching targets a lot
Many factors like amount of target switches, time spent setting up and executing MDs, group composition ect. all play into it. Where other ranged classes have a DPS window that differs by maybe 250, mine atm is anywhere from 950-1450. A lot of what a SV Hunter brings to the raid is not going to show up on his Recount data on any particular fight. |
On Anatheron, you can leave it on the boss for the whole duration, and just spam mend pets when possible.
On Kaz, like you said, no problems there...
On Azgalor, you can set him to aggresive and stay near Thrall, to dps doomguards rather than get in the way of fires.
Edit: 2/5 tier 5 goes a very long way to ensure a happy, healthy and living pet.
I'm still torn on what spec going for sunwell.
At the moment i have a mixed raid/pvp build since we are just farming content, but surely once sunwell goes live i will respec for better raid performance.
The 3 specs i'm considering are:
1)7-21-33
2)0-28-33
3)0-20-41
As it is now, third build wins in short fight while second one have better avarage performance. With sunwell gear however, getting haste items will not gimp too much your dps stats, and it's actually easy to get around 10% haste and keeping 4 t6 bonus. Was thinking to switch to the Barrel-Blade Longrifle for 1% racial crit and higher agi, and then with approx 10% haste i'll bring down my autoshot to 2.05, that will allow me to switch to 3:2 rotation and getting full benefit from IAotH procs.
Any comments?
At the moment i have a mixed raid/pvp build since we are just farming content, but surely once sunwell goes live i will respec for better raid performance.
The 3 specs i'm considering are:
1)7-21-33
2)0-28-33
3)0-20-41
As it is now, third build wins in short fight while second one have better avarage performance. With sunwell gear however, getting haste items will not gimp too much your dps stats, and it's actually easy to get around 10% haste and keeping 4 t6 bonus. Was thinking to switch to the Barrel-Blade Longrifle for 1% racial crit and higher agi, and then with approx 10% haste i'll bring down my autoshot to 2.05, that will allow me to switch to 3:2 rotation and getting full benefit from IAotH procs.
Any comments?
I had an Imp. Arcane spec before and recently switched to 7-21-33. So far I am very impressed with the results. Using a normal BM rotation, which converts to 2:1 unhasted, I usually get better DPS for less mana consumption. This spec really shines if you add a 'haste-cycle' to it to get to a 3:2 or even better 1:1 rotation. I dont have passive haste at all, but use the following to achieve this goal for as long as I can:
- IAotH (15%, 12 sec, proc)
- DST (20%, 10 sec, proc)
- Rapid Fire (40%, 15 sec, on use)
- Troll Berserking (10-30%, 10 sec, on use)
- Haste Potion (25%, 15 sec on use)
- Bloodlust (30%, 40 sec, on use)
- Drums (5%, 30sec, on use)
Although Haste Potion may not be an option for everyone (lucky me raids with a Ret Pally ) and the same goes for Berserking, it works out really nice if you can get this to work, especially in shorter encounters. But even in the longer ones the sustainability is great.
- IAotH (15%, 12 sec, proc)
- DST (20%, 10 sec, proc)
- Rapid Fire (40%, 15 sec, on use)
- Troll Berserking (10-30%, 10 sec, on use)
- Haste Potion (25%, 15 sec on use)
- Bloodlust (30%, 40 sec, on use)
- Drums (5%, 30sec, on use)
Although Haste Potion may not be an option for everyone (lucky me raids with a Ret Pally ) and the same goes for Berserking, it works out really nice if you can get this to work, especially in shorter encounters. But even in the longer ones the sustainability is great.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
Some of my reply is backed up by theory, some is my opinion, I'll try to keep the two seperate.
Theory. Unfortunately, as much as we survival hunters would love it, raids rarely run with two enhancement shamans and the raid's dps benefits better from WF in the melee group than GoA for the Surv Hunter. This is especially true with your setup (MS warrior), Fury warriors tend to be rage capped and use Heroic Strike, thus no white damage from MH to turn into WF procs. My Opinion It seems the best combination you can come up with with the classes you've mentioned would be putting all 3 hunters together with the feral druid. An alternative is swapping out the rogue into the group with the 3 hunters and putting the feral druid into the melee group. It'll suck for the hunters but will probably be of greatest raid benefit. (This is only a good solution if the rogue is not combat swords, if Rogue is combat swords then WF is a big increase in dps). As for the Surv hunter's dps, it very much depends on the fight. There's few fights where you can get a really good representation of a hunter's dps because we are all of ranged, melee and mana users so there is rarely a fight that doesn't gimp our dps in one way or another. We're working through MH/BT at the moment (4/5, 3/9) so my gear is probably slightly behind but comparable. On Shade of Akama (probably the best place to test dps if you put the Surv hunter up top on the channelers, also good for synergy with the melee there) I can output about 1300 dps, there will be others who can do better than this no doubt. In our raids we generally have 2-3 hunters and 4-5 melee + a feral druid (often dps for bosses) which makes for a lot of physical damage. When I'm in the raid it's almost like having another dps (works out at about 800 effective dps across the raid I think) because of EW/IHM. So you can probably attribute another few hundred dps to the Surv hunter interms of the raid (though that's no reason to slack). A Surv Hunter should probably be top dps on Azgalor and Supremus. Those fights are perfect for them. If they're not top or close they're probably doing something wrong. |
As far as the melee group, I prefer to leave it untouched, but one of our rogues is combat daggers (until a second set of warglaives drops). I have considered swapping one of the BM hunters in there, and moving the dagger rogue, a resto shaman (dropping GoA), the other BM hunter, a survival hunter and the feral into the same group and seeing how that goes.
I figure the second one would be even better for overall raid dps, thoughts?
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Originally Posted by Sufferings
Quick question, I have seen some thoughts on group setup, but had some questions on survival hunters as we are trying to integrate one into our raid group before Sunwell hits.
Our typical melee group runs with an enhancement shaman (myself), 2 rogues, 1 MS warrior and 1 fury warrior. We also have 2 BM hunters outside the melee group and a feral druid that tanks when needed. We usually run with one or two shadow priests (which I have heard are sometimes needed for survival?). What would the optimal group setup be for a survival hunter? Also, how much dps should a survival hunter be doing in their best gear set? Although the main reason I want a survival hunter is for expose weakness and imp hunters mark, I want them to do good damage compared to the rest of the group. I have seen a lot of conflicting information about just how much dps they are capable of and also about the group set up. If I can get some informative answers on this or a link to this information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! |
1. Optimal Group Setup - Keep in mind that the Surv hunter does not need to be in the melee group, only on the same target that all of the physical damage dealers are on. This is a HUGE misconception that most raid leaders make, and it irks the hell out of me. If you want to Maximize the Surv Hunters benefits to you, I think they should be considered as a melee. Optimal setup I think is 1 or 2 BM hunters(stacking 3% dmg is hot) a feral druid and a Shadow Priest. Now you can swap out one of the hunters or the druid for a shaman that can drop GoA/mana tide but that would be dependent on how many shamans you run with. It also depends on the hunter too, if they are prepared for a night of raiding then chaining Fel Mana Pots should keep them from running oom, so it can trivialize having a sp.
2. Best Dps - As most of the other people have replied its really based on what fight you are on, I also think that the group make-up has a significant role in their personal dps too. 1000-1200 should be a good number for a stacked BT geared survival hunter. Keep in mind though that their dps will not top the meters but once you add in the huge buff of EW and imp mark (i give about 360AP to the raid) it will vastly out do the loss in dps overall.
3. Here is a link to my armory and spec if you need any more information or ideas The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Evil-Homer!
Well I can give you all the info I have learned thus far in raiding.
1. Optimal Group Setup - Keep in mind that the Surv hunter does not need to be in the melee group, only on the same target that all of the physical damage dealers are on. This is a HUGE misconception that most raid leaders make, and it irks the hell out of me. If you want to Maximize the Surv Hunters benefits to you, I think they should be considered as a melee. Optimal setup I think is 1 or 2 BM hunters(stacking 3% dmg is hot) a feral druid and a Shadow Priest. Now you can swap out one of the hunters or the druid for a shaman that can drop GoA/mana tide but that would be dependent on how many shamans you run with. It also depends on the hunter too, if they are prepared for a night of raiding then chaining Fel Mana Pots should keep them from running oom, so it can trivialize having a sp. 2. Best Dps - As most of the other people have replied its really based on what fight you are on, I also think that the group make-up has a significant role in their personal dps too. 1000-1200 should be a good number for a stacked BT geared survival hunter. Keep in mind though that their dps will not top the meters but once you add in the huge buff of EW and imp mark (i give about 360AP to the raid) it will vastly out do the loss in dps overall. 3. Here is a link to my armory and spec if you need any more information or ideas The World of Warcraft Armory |
I think I am going to go with BM Hunter/dagger rogue/feral druid/resto shaman/survival hunter once I pick one up. Then when that dagger rogue gets a MH warglaive, I'll swap him back in the melee group and stack the other BM hunter in the group above.
And ya, the reason I want the survival hunter is because of those buffs. 360 ap to our melee is huge by itself!
Thanks for the info, just need to find me a survival hunter now, lol!
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I recently started raiding as Survival since my guild needed one and I am still trying to figure out some things. For my first week of raids I was really really struggling to keep up a decent rotation. My damage was really low and I decided to work over my spec and rotation during the weekend. I also took the time to read this whole thread to find useful informations.
Right now the best rotation I was able to maintain during my tests was the standard 1:1.5 rotation (multi/arcane with multi priority). I have read about the new /cast !Auto shot; /cast Steady Shot and how it's supposed to deliver great DPS, but for me it is always way less than the 1:1.5 rotation. I do not have 4 pieces of T6 yet so my damage would rise if I had it, but according to my numbers, a 10% bonus would not help 2:1 come on top of a 1:1.5 rotation.
To the survival hunters out there that use the 2:1 macro, what do you have that make it better than 1:1.5? Is there something I'm missing?
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I am really impressed by Kurkis' setup and his results found on page 38-39. I am really interested to learn more about it. Is Kurkis still around? Anyone else tried to follow his footsteps to reproduce his numbers?
Right now the best rotation I was able to maintain during my tests was the standard 1:1.5 rotation (multi/arcane with multi priority). I have read about the new /cast !Auto shot; /cast Steady Shot and how it's supposed to deliver great DPS, but for me it is always way less than the 1:1.5 rotation. I do not have 4 pieces of T6 yet so my damage would rise if I had it, but according to my numbers, a 10% bonus would not help 2:1 come on top of a 1:1.5 rotation.
To the survival hunters out there that use the 2:1 macro, what do you have that make it better than 1:1.5? Is there something I'm missing?
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I am really impressed by Kurkis' setup and his results found on page 38-39. I am really interested to learn more about it. Is Kurkis still around? Anyone else tried to follow his footsteps to reproduce his numbers?
Last edited by Mahuk : 03/10/08 at 7:20 PM.
Relentless Strikes
What are folks thinking in regard to the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]? Is this a viable Survival Weapon?
I've been using the rotations that QuiggyB posted in post #831. I don't have DST and am running a 0/20/41 spec. I'm seriously considering saving badges for 2.4 and getting the crossbow.
I've been using the rotations that QuiggyB posted in post #831. I don't have DST and am running a 0/20/41 spec. I'm seriously considering saving badges for 2.4 and getting the crossbow.
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Originally Posted by Mahuk
To the survival hunters out there that use the 2:1 macro, what do you have that make it better than 1:1.5? Is there something I'm missing? ------------- I am really impressed by Kurkis' setup and his results found on page 38-39. I am really interested to learn more about it. Is Kurkis still around? Anyone else tried to follow his footsteps to reproduce his numbers? |
Since his guild has been farming BT/Hyjal for quite some time, his raid dps as whole is very high and fights are very short. A fight that might take my guild 8 minutes may takes his only 4. Because of this he used 4Piece T6 bonus + steady shot trinket + multiple stacked haste effects + stacked group... he spent the majority of a fight in a 1:1 hasted state, after the haste he used 3:2 but could have probably achieved the same result if he was using 1:1.5. The majority of his big numbers came from the prolonged hasted state combined with a short encounter time.
I don't believe that 3:2 is viable for most survival hunters but if someone has some WWS to look at I think it would be really valuable.
I have not yet run the numbers on the 2.8 badges crossbow but I can't see using a 2.8 weapon very successfully with survival. Perhaps if you did not have access to S3 Bow or Archi Bow. For hunters progressing into sunwell, an amazing survival bow will be just around the corner [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas] Not to mention the 2.8 bow looks terrible!
With all the haste gear sitting around this does bring up some interesting questions:
- Does haste have any place in 1:1.5 with 3.0 speed weapon? My thoughts are absolutely not, has anyone found differently?
- Some of the best items in the game will be leather, how much leather can we wear and still maintain decent time to OOM. (assuming no shadow priest) (this question has tons of factors involved but might be interesting to talk about)
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Originally Posted by Mahuk
I recently started raiding as Survival since my guild needed one and I am still trying to figure out some things. For my first week of raids I was really really struggling to keep up a decent rotation. My damage was really low and I decided to work over my spec and rotation during the weekend. I also took the time to read this whole thread to find useful informations.
Right now the best rotation I was able to maintain during my tests was the standard 1:1.5 rotation (multi/arcane with multi priority). I have read about the new /cast !Auto shot; /cast Steady Shot and how it's supposed to deliver great DPS, but for me it is always way less than the 1:1.5 rotation. I do not have 4 pieces of T6 yet so my damage would rise if I had it, but according to my numbers, a 10% bonus would not help 2:1 come on top of a 1:1.5 rotation. To the survival hunters out there that use the 2:1 macro, what do you have that make it better than 1:1.5? Is there something I'm missing? ------------- I am really impressed by Kurkis' setup and his results found on page 38-39. I am really interested to learn more about it. Is Kurkis still around? Anyone else tried to follow his footsteps to reproduce his numbers? |
In the end, he was doing exactly what we tell people to do: use a 1:1.5 rotation for most of the fight, swapping to a 1:1 (2:1 macro works as well) while under the effect of haste. He was just prolonging that haste to be a large % of the fight, and as such believed that the 1:1 rotation was the cause of his dps and not just the logical path.
Note: I use a 1:1.5 rotation with imp arcane shot, and tonight I'll hopefully break 2k dps on Gorefiend myself.
Edit: Rotten tarnation, Vasili beats me! The blood elf speaks the truth!
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
With all the haste gear sitting around this does bring up some interesting questions: - Does haste have any place in 1:1.5 with 3.0 speed weapon? My thoughts are absolutely not, has anyone found differently? - Some of the best items in the game will be leather, how much leather can we wear and still maintain decent time to OOM. (assuming no shadow priest) (this question has tons of factors involved but might be interesting to talk about) |
Regarding mana, I run without Thrill of the Hunt, without Efficiency, and have almost no mana issues at all. The judicious use of a mana oil on your weapon, a major mageblood elixer to go with my greater agility elixer, a ret paladin keeping judgement of wisdom up, and fel mana potions when needed are more than enough to keep me happy. As well, us hunters tend to get thrown in with a resto shaman (since our enhancement shaman gets the melee group), and I just request that they notify me when they're going to drop mana tide totem. It's an incredible mana boost for those couple of fights where mana is an issue (I'm thinking Illidari Council specifically, since I don't stand with the healers our shaman gets to yell at me.) Mana efficiency is all about what you're willing to spend.
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Originally Posted by wispwisp
u also said
I thought Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation > Gauntlets of Sniping for Survival.. at least that is what cheekys shows. For some reason, cheekys puts Trollbane > Dagger of Bad Mojo x2. i checked the enchants. i must be doing something wrong. |
Concerning Daggers of Bad Mojo versus Trollbane, whichever is better depends a lot on your other gear, spec, and which is more important, personal or overall raid DPS. For my current spec and gear, 2 Daggers of Bad Mojo with +20 agi have 1346.84 DPS and 291.83 EW while Trollbane with +35 agi (make sure to clear weapon and enchant in off hand slot) has 1340.52 DPS and 294.42 EW. The extra EW on Trollbane equates to 6.22 raid DPS (assuming 0.3 conversion for AP to DPS and 8 other physical DPS on the target) making the items roughly equal for overall raid DPS. Here I would choose the daggers since they give better personal DPS and on average better raid DPS when including the times when the other physical DPS may not be on the same target as you.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation are generally better Gauntlets of Sniping for Survival. I was just stating that the Sniping ones are better than T5. Note though that for me currently, the Sniping gloves are better since I lose hit (and DPS) with the other gloves and all the hit items that I have to replace items in other slots are inferior and result in loss of DPS.
Concerning Daggers of Bad Mojo versus Trollbane, whichever is better depends a lot on your other gear, spec, and which is more important, personal or overall raid DPS. For my current spec and gear, 2 Daggers of Bad Mojo with +20 agi have 1346.84 DPS and 291.83 EW while Trollbane with +35 agi (make sure to clear weapon and enchant in off hand slot) has 1340.52 DPS and 294.42 EW. The extra EW on Trollbane equates to 6.22 raid DPS (assuming 0.3 conversion for AP to DPS and 8 other physical DPS on the target) making the items roughly equal for overall raid DPS. Here I would choose the daggers since they give better personal DPS and on average better raid DPS when including the times when the other physical DPS may not be on the same target as you. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Just killed Gorefiend with the /cast macro, 2112 dps as imp arcane shot... holy hell! I'll have WWS later tonight, so I'll be editing this post.
Edit: According to WWS, it was 2143 DPS in a fight that lasted 3:06.
Wow Web Stats
Edit: According to WWS, it was 2143 DPS in a fight that lasted 3:06.
Wow Web Stats
Last edited by SomeRandomIdiot : 03/12/08 at 12:53 AM.
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Originally Posted by nfmmalice
We are currently trying to figure out one of our hunter's Survival Spec for raids...
here is her Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory But We are thinking of resepeccing her to: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator In an Attempt to make her more versatile, as contribute More DPS than she currently does... Right now I have her using this Shot MAcro: #showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() **EDIT** Would we gain more DPS/Speed by Throwing in the Sound=0 COmmand Prompt? ******** I know some of her gear needs attention, but we are slowly but surely getting there.. So any Help you could throw at me would be greatly appreciated |
However, I would suggest a few minor changes. The biggest is getting 5/5 Mortal Shots instead of 4/5 as your suggested change has. For all hunters, 5/5 Mortal Shots is very important for our DPS, but it is even more important for survival hunters with our greater crit rate. For me, 1 rank in Mortal Shots is about 22 DPS. I like Wyvern Sting for soloing and PvP, but for raiding it should be dropped for 5/5 Mortal Shots.
I also strongly suggest 3/3 EW and 2/3 TotH instead of vice versa. As I have stated in previous posts, that extra rank in EW makes a significant difference to both personal and raid DPS, and that difference is even more pronounced in most fights where the hunter has to do more than just stand still and fire an ideal rotation. The lost rank in TotH is made up by already having 5/5 Efficiency. She shouldn;t be having mana problems with that spec and using mana pots. If she does, then use a mana oil on her weapon or place her in a group with a shaman with mana spring.
The other differences at the lower end of the survival tree are preferential. Personally, I wouldn't spend a point in IFD since Readiness allows for extra FD and she shouldn;t be waiting for the last moment to FD. I prefer the point in Clever Traps so that my traps, when used, are more effective.
For the macro, I hope that she is doing more than just auto-steady. With her weapon speed, she should be doing either a 1:1.3 rotation with arcane shot after every 3rd steady when firing around CC and a 1:1.5 rotation with alternating arcane shot and multishot after every other steady. I would not suggest using a macro for the 1:1.3 or 1:1.5 rotations. I have tried many and have not found one that consistently and accurately performs the rotation and also modifies properly under haste affects to take advantage of that haste. Suggest using the auto-steady macro (don't know how good that particular one is) with hand-weaving in the arcanes and multishots at the appropriate locations. I try to cast the specials during the last third (~0.5) of the steady shot cast. This provides much more consistency, control, and ability to self-modify the rotation under high haste effects.
As far as gear goes, she doesn't have too bad for just starting raiding (her crit rate and AP is nice); however, there appears to be several gear upgrade avenues that have not been taken advantage of and which can provide huge upgrades. These include:
- Buying gear with Badges of Justice
- Getting arena gear, especially season 3
- Getting some regular PvP gear
The best gear of of these types are huge upgrades until she can get better gear in 25-mans. In fact, some of the gear available by these options do not have 25-man upgrades until very deep into raiding.
Good luck!
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Whytefyst;
Nature of fights isn't the issue as I am pretty skilled on behavior for them all aside from Sharahz who I always die to during FA. Modeling of the target may have something to do with it, I assume changing target is under settings but I would have to know the values of the targets to change armor. I don't recall where to find armor values for specific bosses. One thing I see myself doing is playing too cautiously. When I see that I've passed 90% of atanks threat, I throttle myself hard since I have pulled in the past. What is the range when the 150% rule takes place and how often do you aggro dump? Every 30 seconds or when you pass the tank's threat? I have all of my buffs turned off and always will atleast until I am satisfied with my constant level of dps. Holy crap, that means I am even worse off than I thought I was. (Im going to go kill myself now) A little low you say? You are far too kind. The cloak is staying until I can replace that hit. Saying I do get the cloak off of shade, if we are a caster heavy raid would Teron's be better still since I would be helping only 5-6 including myself or not? I just got the Quickstrider Moccassins and could finally drop the waraxe in favor of netherbane/blade of infamy, but gear is not the main issue I think. Enova; Here's a question, you expect 1000 easily, is this with no buffs? I really think it is the rotation. Call me slow or whatever, but so far I have only fully understood the 1:1 rotation. Special, Auto, rinse repeat. 1:1.5 as far as I can tell is the same as 2:3 which basically means special, auto, special, auto, special. How is this any different from 1:1 besides what you start with? I assumed this meant weaving in an auto (thus why I chose IAS over MS) at the end of a steady, before the auto fires. I change nothing when DST procs, believing the speed increase to not be enough to cause clipping. This is probably something I should watch more intently, but kind of don't have time to stare at a bar when the buff shows up. RK vs IAS. Why doesn't RK improvements show up in the SS? I always chose it last because the bonus seemed to throw off my rota...tion, which I never changed in the first place so there's one blatant error. How should my rotation switch up during haste/RF? As for short fights like that, I live under the assumption popping RF too early is asking to pull aggro. Thus another reason behind me not caring to take RK. |
For modeling of the target, the latest version of the spreadsheet on the Settings and Results tab allows you to pick the boss under the Target menu in A43. Doing so loads all the correct modeling for that target.
Concerning pulling aggro, it is at 100% when in melee and 130% at range. I have set OMEN warnings to go off at 90% when in melee and 120% at range as a reminder to watch aggro. In most cases, you shouldn't be dialing it back here. You should be FDing instead to dump all threat. You only need to dial back some when FD is on CD. Also use MD whenever available to give yourself some "free" threat shots while also lifting the MTs threat so that everyone in the raid has more DPS room to operate. You shouldn't be saving FD for after pulling aggro, you should be using it to manage your threat if you are not already doing so.
Yes, despite being a blue, wear the Necklace of the Deep.
As far as you next gear question, you need to make that tradeoff analysis yourself with seeing the differences in personal and raid DPS between two items with knowing your guilds specific general raid makeup and the buffs you receive.
Even with no buffs, a T6 area survival hunter should still be getting around 1K DPS ideally in fights when using pet. More less ideal fights and fights that are not pet friendly the unbuffed DPS could be as low as 800. However, unless you were just battle rezzed, you should never be doing boss fights unbuffed and without the appropriate elixers/flask so that you DPS and EW proc can be "maxed" out for that given situation.
If you are just doing a auto-special rotation whether that special is steady shot, arcane shot, or multishot, that would definitely account for a much lower DPS. No matter what special you use in between autos, if it is just one, it is a 1:1 rotation, and leaves a lot of dead time with a survival hunter's shot speed that you are not taking advantage, with your DPS suffering.
With CC concerns, suggest using a 1:1.3 rotation, which places an arcane shot after every 3rd steady. I hand weave it with trying to cast the arcane shot during the last third (~0.5s) of the steady shot cast.
When crowd control is not a concern, suggest using a 1:1.5 rotation that alternates arcane shot and multishot after every 2nd steady shot with casting at the same time as for the 1:1.3 rotation.
To illustrate the differences with my char with his current gear and ideal raid buffs:
1:1 steady => 1125 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1 arcane (in place of every 3rd steady) => 1163 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1 multi (in place of every 4th steady) => 1144 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1 arcane, multi (multi, arcane, steady, steady alternating between autos) => 1177 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1.3: 1281 DPS and 293.8 EW proc
1:1.5: 1337 DPS and 294.4 EW proc
As can be seen, your DPS varies a little (~50 DPS) with the different 1:1 rotations depending on which specials are used but that your EW proc stays the same since you are basically doing the same number of shots in the same interval. With increasing to the 1:1.3 and 1:1.5 rotations, you see drastic changes of 160 and 212 DPS, respectively, with increases in EW proc since your are casting more shots per that same interval.
Concerning DST, if you are just doing a 1:1 rotation, then DST has no negative effects. It has positive effects of increasing your attack speed and tightening up the slack in your rotation. However, if you have already tightened up the slack in your rotation by using a 1:1.5 rotation, speeding up your shots can cause clipping if there is not sufficient slack remaining. If you have sufficient slack in your rotation, then clipping will not occur.
RK will cause you to get off more shots more quickly and generate more threat, but you should not be pulling aggro if the tank is being MDed too, especially if you use your own and get 3 "free" shots and if you utilize FD properly to manage your threat. It is possible though that you could be forced to FD early in the fight and then catch up again on threat before FD is available again. If that happens, then dial back a little until FD allows you to dump aggro again. Preventling pulling aggro also involves understanding how well particular tanks generate threat under given circumstances. For ones with lower threat generation, you may need to use RK a little later in the fight than ideal.
First of all, just wanted to say hi to everyone and thanks, since the amount of information I found in this thread really helped me a lot so far. Now, I would like to ask for your support in helping me identify the optimal talent build according to my current gear level.
A little bit of background information: I was BM hunter since forever, however, after the guild has reached T6 content I was asked to spec SV to give an extra boost to our melee classes. Obviously, since my gear was BM focused, I was really at the edge in terms of minimal amount of agi required before respec. Right now, raid buffed I get to about 900 agi (without GoA) so for me it was most important to provide a decent amount of buff via EW while maintaining solid DPS.
Before respec I was constantly in top2, together with another BM hunter, and now I see myself usually in top 3-5 in terms of DPS.
I have tried 2 builds so far:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Good personal DPS, but obviously EW uptime is not optimal. I usually get a less than ideal group during raid, which means a spot in the tanking group where the only benefit I have is LotP from a druid.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Seems to produce less DPS (about 100 DPS lower) although I don't have some solid numbers to verify that since group compositions changes between the raids I tested. However, a solid increase in EW uptime with this build.
In terms of shot rotation I'm using 2 macros, depending on the hasted / non-hasted state I'm in:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
and
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
During fights I normally try to keep myself hasted as much as possible (RF, drums, haste pots).
This WWS log is from last evening Azgalor kill, however is actually lower than my regular DPS output due to 2 factors: pet died at the beginning (my mistake, I usually manage to keep him up) and lacking of any group buffs (I was in tanking group but didn't even had the druid to support me with LotP).
Gear is also not very helpfull since I still have a mixture of Kara/T4/T5 due to the fact that I usually skip raiding farming content (not much time available) so it takes me a longer time to get myself at the same gear level as rest of raid.
Since armory seems to be down, bellow is my current gear:
70 Night Elf Hunter
Appreciate any advice !
A little bit of background information: I was BM hunter since forever, however, after the guild has reached T6 content I was asked to spec SV to give an extra boost to our melee classes. Obviously, since my gear was BM focused, I was really at the edge in terms of minimal amount of agi required before respec. Right now, raid buffed I get to about 900 agi (without GoA) so for me it was most important to provide a decent amount of buff via EW while maintaining solid DPS.
Before respec I was constantly in top2, together with another BM hunter, and now I see myself usually in top 3-5 in terms of DPS.
I have tried 2 builds so far:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Good personal DPS, but obviously EW uptime is not optimal. I usually get a less than ideal group during raid, which means a spot in the tanking group where the only benefit I have is LotP from a druid.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Seems to produce less DPS (about 100 DPS lower) although I don't have some solid numbers to verify that since group compositions changes between the raids I tested. However, a solid increase in EW uptime with this build.
In terms of shot rotation I'm using 2 macros, depending on the hasted / non-hasted state I'm in:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
and
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
During fights I normally try to keep myself hasted as much as possible (RF, drums, haste pots).
This WWS log is from last evening Azgalor kill, however is actually lower than my regular DPS output due to 2 factors: pet died at the beginning (my mistake, I usually manage to keep him up) and lacking of any group buffs (I was in tanking group but didn't even had the druid to support me with LotP).
Gear is also not very helpfull since I still have a mixture of Kara/T4/T5 due to the fact that I usually skip raiding farming content (not much time available) so it takes me a longer time to get myself at the same gear level as rest of raid.
Since armory seems to be down, bellow is my current gear:
70 Night Elf Hunter
Appreciate any advice !
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Originally Posted by movado
Illidan bow or Archimonde bow for a survival hunter -- I'm not sure if it is worth me upgrading. Any help?
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Between the two for me, [Bristleblitz Striker] is better than [Black Bow of the Betrayer] from a DPS standpoint (about 4 DPS better) and from an EW proc standpoint (about 0.33 better). They both have same attack speed and weapon DPS. The difference is that 25 crit (1.13%) is better than 26 AP, especially considering how many of a survival hunter's abilities proc from crit.
Now the mana effects from [Black Bow of the Betrayer] are interesting. 8 mana per shot is roughly 40 mp5, which is nice but not necessary unless having mana problems. However, against bosses, the -40 mp5 really does very little. So if you need the mana more than a little more DPS than [Black Bow of the Betrayer] may be better for you.
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Originally Posted by Sufferings
Our typical melee group runs with an enhancement shaman (myself), 2 rogues, 1 MS warrior and 1 fury warrior. We also have 2 BM hunters outside the melee group and a feral druid that tanks when needed. We usually run with one or two shadow priests (which I have heard are sometimes needed for survival?).
What would the optimal group setup be for a survival hunter? Also, how much dps should a survival hunter be doing in their best gear set? Although the main reason I want a survival hunter is for expose weakness and imp hunters mark, I want them to do good damage compared to the rest of the group. I have seen a lot of conflicting information about just how much dps they are capable of and also about the group set up. If I can get some informative answers on this or a link to this information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! |
1) Feral druid for LotP - that 5% crit is very beneficial directly for personal DPS but also for all of our skills that proc from crit, such as TotH, EW, and some trinkets
2) shaman (preferrable enhancement with improved totems) - GoA has tremendous impacts on a survival hunter. With BoK, that's and extra 111+ agi fully ranked for a survival hunter. That is +111 AP, +2.78 crit, +222 armor, +4.45 dodge, and +27.75 EW proc. These are signficant gains, with some of them having indirect impacts on the pet as well as the direct impacts of the pet getting the buff too. For me this is a personal gain of 65 DPS and 28.5 EW proc for total raid DPS of 133.5 DPS assuming 0.3 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS in the raid. SoE also helps the pets DPS. My pet's has +17 DPS with SoE. Finally, mana spring provides 30 mp5. Combined this is +150 raid DPS and 30 mp5 to help maintain DPS
3) BM hunters with FI for +6% dmg procs.
A SP is nice for mana regen, but a shaman provides mana regen and better benefits.
The problem though is that what might be the ideal group for the survival hunter may not be the ideal allocation of raid resources for maximum raid DPS. It's often better to put the enhancement shaman, if only 1, in the group with the rogues to buff them and with a warrior shout to improve their melee AP.
A survial hunter fully geared should be getting around roughly 1500-2000 DPS depending on gear choices, buffs, rotation, and the nature of the given fight. In addition, such a hunter should have around 1200 agi fully buffed with an EW proc around 300, which is equivalent to about +720 raid DPS (with same assumptions as precious). This is total raid contribution of 2220-2720 DPS.
I disagree with the comment that a reason for a survival hunter is IHM. Any hunter can have that talent. And to be honest, it is often better for a BM Hunter to have it so that the survival hunter can have efficiency instead since BMs tend to have less mana problems since just using steady shot and auto shot. I have IHM though since I am the most consistently available hunter for our raids and since it is more convenient with me doing most of the pulls.
I disagree with Kabuto's statement that:" The best gear is almost identical for all hunter specs as nothing is specifically itemised for Survival anyway." Although there is a lot of overlap in gear between the specs, survival hunters need to generally go for gear with agi while other specs can use more gear without any agility on it. They are many pieces of gear out there that is better for survival than the other specs because of our 15% agi bonus and vice versa.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
I disagree with the comment that a reason for a survival hunter is IHM. Any hunter can have that talent. And to be honest, it is often better for a BM Hunter to have it so that the survival hunter can have efficiency instead since BMs tend to have less mana problems since just using steady shot and auto shot. I have IHM though since I am the most consistently available hunter for our raids and since it is more convenient with me doing most of the pulls.
I disagree with Kabuto's statement that:" The best gear is almost identical for all hunter specs as nothing is specifically itemised for Survival anyway." Although there is a lot of overlap in gear between the specs, survival hunters need to generally go for gear with agi while other specs can use more gear without any agility on it. They are many pieces of gear out there that is better for survival than the other specs because of our 15% agi bonus and vice versa. |
The post is pretty much finished, though i suspect there are a few holes in it which might need addressing at a later time.
It lists a resulting comparison of a BM and a Survival hunter and a gear list for Tier 4,5,6 and sunwell.
With ~12 melee in the raid i came up with an estimate of 775 DPS from the EW buff alone, so it's pretty close to yours.
Sunwell in specific has a lot of very powerful survival items with high numbers of Agility. I can come up with a fairly balanced 660 Agility bonus from gear alone.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Enova
There are however some things the spreadsheets and stat weights can't fully quantify; for instance, the T5 gloves. It depends a lot on the set bonus, and if you're breaking it or not. I'm talking here about the 2 piece bonus; the constant stream of healing done to your pet can't in any way be translated into numbers. Sure; if you're doing 1000 flat dps, it'll be 150 healing per second your pet recieves. But it's constant, and it scales with your damage and the target's debuffs. It also saves you quite a few global cooldowns casting mend pet (you're still going to use it, but a lot less), a lot of mana you'd spend on those mend pets, and a lot of time where otherwise you'd need to pull back or revive your pet. How do you fit all that into a single x > y equation?
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I have 2 T5 pieces, the gloves and legs. I personally do not wear them for raiding and wear [Gauntlets of Sniping] and [Void Reaver Greaves] instead. The easily measureable difference of not wearing the T5 is +3 personal DPS and +5.15 average EW proc, which is 12.4 DPS, assuming 0.3 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS in the raid, for +15.4 raid DPS.
It is true that I could easily lose this amount by healing my pet or pulling him out of melee. However, I usually do not have to worry about healing my pet that often. Our melee is generally healed by chain healing shamans, which heals my pet as well. In addition, our healers also do spot healing of the melee DPS if necessary, which includes pets.
If I do need to heal my pet, there are a few gaps in my rotation over time in which I can slide it in with minimal to little impact besides the mana usage.
Do I pull my pet out of combat from time to time? Yes, I do. I pull my pet out of combat when a AoE effect is on the melee and my pet would more than likely die if not withdrawn. Even if I was wearing my 2 T5 pieces, I would still need to withdraw my pet in these situations.
Does my pet die sometimes? Yes. But this is generally due to either me not getting it out of the AoE effect fast enough (or not at all) or some large burst damage that kills it. It is true that in some of these instances, the healing from the T5 2 set bonus may have saved it, but it is my opinion that in the vast majority of those cases my pet was going to die regardless.
Thus, for my situation, I prefer to contribute more easily measureable raid DPS, rely on our healers to heal my pet, and provide the remaining management of my pet's health by mending it at appropriate times in my rotation when needed and/or withdrawing it from combat if necessary.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/12/08 at 3:57 PM. Reason: Corrected that have T5 legs not shoulders
Hunter Trinket Theorycrafting
Hi guys...
First off kudos to all who drive these forums, this has been a great source for my guild & I. We are currently on Illidan, 48% last night, and I bet we will have him down by Monday . At this point, having downed loot-council, I now have access to all the trinkets in the game (currently) that a hunter could potentially want.
From a Survival-raiding point of view, and assuming a 1:1.5 shot rotation, what are the trinkets that suits my spec
(0/20/41) the best?
I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere but sadly I do not have the six hours required to go through every post .
It seems there are five options:
- Berserker's Call
- the Ashtongue trinket
- Madness of the Betrayer
- Tsunami Talisman
- Talon of A'lar
I left out Bloodlust Brooch, as the 'Call is obviously superior in all ways. I am wary of the Ashtongue trinket, as with 1:1.5 I will not be ridiculously spamming Steady Shot. And I have seen many theorycrafting posts on how bad Talon of A'lar is, but I still left it in there just in case. I am also wary of Madness, mostly because of the fact that I don't need that extra 20 hit rating, but also because I remain unconvinced of the benefits of armor-ignore over an equivalent amount of AP. It seems like Tsunami Talisman is the best, just because of the crit and the proc, even though it is the lowest ilvl.
If there is another option somehow I am missing, please let me know.
Thanks all for reading!
-End.
First off kudos to all who drive these forums, this has been a great source for my guild & I. We are currently on Illidan, 48% last night, and I bet we will have him down by Monday . At this point, having downed loot-council, I now have access to all the trinkets in the game (currently) that a hunter could potentially want.
From a Survival-raiding point of view, and assuming a 1:1.5 shot rotation, what are the trinkets that suits my spec
(0/20/41) the best?
I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere but sadly I do not have the six hours required to go through every post .
It seems there are five options:
- Berserker's Call
- the Ashtongue trinket
- Madness of the Betrayer
- Tsunami Talisman
- Talon of A'lar
I left out Bloodlust Brooch, as the 'Call is obviously superior in all ways. I am wary of the Ashtongue trinket, as with 1:1.5 I will not be ridiculously spamming Steady Shot. And I have seen many theorycrafting posts on how bad Talon of A'lar is, but I still left it in there just in case. I am also wary of Madness, mostly because of the fact that I don't need that extra 20 hit rating, but also because I remain unconvinced of the benefits of armor-ignore over an equivalent amount of AP. It seems like Tsunami Talisman is the best, just because of the crit and the proc, even though it is the lowest ilvl.
If there is another option somehow I am missing, please let me know.
Thanks all for reading!
-End.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hunter Trinket Theorycrafting
sorry, double-posted, please delete
Last edited by RDarkfire : 03/12/08 at 11:05 AM. Reason: delete
These trinkets are modelled in Cheeky's spreadsheet.
Running simulations with each of them with your own stats is what will give you the most accurate answer.
Besides Madness of the Betrayer (ArmorPen) and Tsunami Talisman (passive crit), trinkets you mentioned only benefit your AP. So, you might also want to consider Darkmoon Card : Crusade, which turns out to be a pretty good AP boost, in some specific cases.
Running simulations with each of them with your own stats is what will give you the most accurate answer.
Besides Madness of the Betrayer (ArmorPen) and Tsunami Talisman (passive crit), trinkets you mentioned only benefit your AP. So, you might also want to consider Darkmoon Card : Crusade, which turns out to be a pretty good AP boost, in some specific cases.
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Originally Posted by RDarkfire
Hi guys...
First off kudos to all who drive these forums, this has been a great source for my guild & I. We are currently on Illidan, 48% last night, and I bet we will have him down by Monday . At this point, having downed loot-council, I now have access to all the trinkets in the game (currently) that a hunter could potentially want. From a Survival-raiding point of view, and assuming a 1:1.5 shot rotation, what are the trinkets that suits my spec (0/20/41) the best? I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere but sadly I do not have the six hours required to go through every post . It seems there are five options: - Berserker's Call - the Ashtongue trinket - Madness of the Betrayer - Tsunami Talisman - Talon of A'lar I left out Bloodlust Brooch, as the 'Call is obviously superior in all ways. I am wary of the Ashtongue trinket, as with 1:1.5 I will not be ridiculously spamming Steady Shot. And I have seen many theorycrafting posts on how bad Talon of A'lar is, but I still left it in there just in case. I am also wary of Madness, mostly because of the fact that I don't need that extra 20 hit rating, but also because I remain unconvinced of the benefits of armor-ignore over an equivalent amount of AP. It seems like Tsunami Talisman is the best, just because of the crit and the proc, even though it is the lowest ilvl. If there is another option somehow I am missing, please let me know. Thanks all for reading! -End. |
Also do not underestimate the effects of stacking armor penetration. On a raid boss with FF and 5x Sunder Armor, COR, there is significant armor penetration already and I believe it scales exponentially... yielding very good results.
edit: fixed item links
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I have Berserker's Call & Madness of the Betrayer (MOB) as clearly the best 2 trinkets in the game. If you think that the 20 hit rating from MOB is waste, you have to realize that it will allow you to drop the hit from other slots for upgrades. For instance you are using the [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] which is a horrible survival ring. Ideally you will want both ring spots open with no hit rating so that you can use [Signet of Primal Wrath] and the new 2.4 badges ring, which together will be the best possible ring combo in the game.
Also do not underestimate the effects of stacking armor penetration. On a raid boss with FF and 5x Sunder Armor, COR, there is significant armor penetration already and I believe it scales exponentially... yielding very good results. edit: fixed item links |
On these forums we are not supposed to posting random unsubstantiated opinions.
I agree [Madness of the Betrayer] is indeed a godly choice once you are farming Illidan as it frees either belt or boot slots to use the rogue items [Shadowmaster's Boots] or [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] for personal DPS
The other slot is by no means cut and dried.
As SV hunters we should quite simply all be using a /cast macro 2:1 rotation IF we don't chain Steadys. The [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] then becomes the trinket of choice, yielding 184 AP, for ref
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Originally Posted by Trohck
[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] is now awesome.
With the "new" mechanics of Steady and Autoshot, my WWS parses are showing Steady-Steady-Auto taking about 3.2 seconds to fire on average, and Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto about 5.55 seconds to fire on average. Since the shots-per second are about the same, and Steady does better per-shot damage, that means the Ashtongue Talisman is now uber, even for Survival hunters. At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 8 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%. So the Talisman is worth about 184 AP, making it equal to or better than any other trinket. |
As for the ring choices...
[Signet of Primal Wrath] and the 2.4 [Item 'sunwell badge loot - melee ring' not found!] are ideal choices for 1 ring slot however for the other I would argue that [Band of the Eternal Champion] is the ring of choice.
Simply because you believe something to be true for you doesn't mean it is true for all hunters using different approaches.
By the way if you don't believe using a /cast macro is the way to go check Thoranir's DPS here
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Just killed Gorefiend with the /cast macro
Edit: According to WWS, it was 2143 DPS in a fight that lasted 3:06. Wow Web Stats |
Last edited by Tiberium : 03/13/08 at 5:48 AM.
Wait wait...is a /cast macro different or the same from a cast sequence macro? The terminology for macros always gets me lost here.
As Cheeky's sheet won't correctly detail it (as far as I know, it may have changed) would the loss of 10 hit from switching ashtongue in for TT be worth it? As far as the spreadsheet goes DST/TT work out best for me atm.
As Cheeky's sheet won't correctly detail it (as far as I know, it may have changed) would the loss of 10 hit from switching ashtongue in for TT be worth it? As far as the spreadsheet goes DST/TT work out best for me atm.
The /cast macro I use is:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Basically, relying on /castsequence means that you're requiring more communication with the server, and the macro takes longer to do the same thing.
Tiberium: I've seen the math done (and if you need to do it again, just enter it in cheeky's spreadsheet) but a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted or only slightly hasted environment is far superior to a 3:2 rotation. I use the 3:2 rotation for when I'm hasted (heroism, haste potions, etc) and a 1:1.5 macro as listed above for the other times.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Basically, relying on /castsequence means that you're requiring more communication with the server, and the macro takes longer to do the same thing.
Tiberium: I've seen the math done (and if you need to do it again, just enter it in cheeky's spreadsheet) but a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted or only slightly hasted environment is far superior to a 3:2 rotation. I use the 3:2 rotation for when I'm hasted (heroism, haste potions, etc) and a 1:1.5 macro as listed above for the other times.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Just killed Gorefiend with the /cast macro, 2112 dps as imp arcane shot... holy hell! I'll have WWS later tonight, so I'll be editing this post.
Edit: According to WWS, it was 2143 DPS in a fight that lasted 3:06. Wow Web Stats |
You did this with 0/20/41 Imp Arcane correct?
One question looking at your WWS is why the relatively high number of steadies per auto shot? 36 steadies to 28 autos?
I guess its not that high, but could you explain? Looking at buffs you received 2 lusts, 2 battle drums, 1 rapid fire, and were using DST?
Survival in 25man Raids is very usefull, i think more usefull than Marksmanship.
If you use Expose Weakness and Improved Mark the overal gain in dps from all melee will outdps the loss of your personal dps from MM spec to Survival Spec.
The boost is insane and obvious. Your raid leaders should consider getting one hunter as survival to boost raid overall dps.
If you use Expose Weakness and Improved Mark the overal gain in dps from all melee will outdps the loss of your personal dps from MM spec to Survival Spec.
The boost is insane and obvious. Your raid leaders should consider getting one hunter as survival to boost raid overall dps.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Great DPS Thoranir, well done sir.
You did this with 0/20/41 Imp Arcane correct? One question looking at your WWS is why the relatively high number of steadies per auto shot? 36 steadies to 28 autos? I guess its not that high, but could you explain? Looking at buffs you received 2 lusts, 2 battle drums, 1 rapid fire, and were using DST? |
As of tonight, I'm officially done picking up survival gear until sunwell (Madness of the Betrayer FINALLY dropped), and while my gear isn't fully gemmed as I'd like it, it's pretty close.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I have Berserker's Call & Madness of the Betrayer (MOB) as clearly the best 2 trinkets in the game. If you think that the 20 hit rating from MOB is waste, you have to realize that it will allow you to drop the hit from other slots for upgrades. For instance you are using the [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] which is a horrible survival ring. Ideally you will want both ring spots open with no hit rating so that you can use [Signet of Primal Wrath] and the new 2.4 badges ring, which together will be the best possible ring combo in the game.
Also do not underestimate the effects of stacking armor penetration. On a raid boss with FF and 5x Sunder Armor, COR, there is significant armor penetration already and I believe it scales exponentially... yielding very good results. edit: fixed item links |
So yes, I realize the violet signet sucks, I just needed it to max. out my hit rating for BM. As for the rest of your comments, I see Berserker's Call really as a BM-trinket that stacks on top of TBW when I pop it (as I do with BLB right now), it does nothing to really help with the theme of what survival is all about : critting as often as possible. Although I agree the DPS of Madness cannot be ignored, as well as freeing up that +20 hit for other things.
@Tiberium: Thanks for your comments as well. Although there's no way I'm getting my hands on those rogue items anytime soon... the rogues need to get them first! :-P.
Also, what's wrong with [Boneweave Girdle] and [Softstep Boots of Tracking]? My mana pool has already been suffering lately with INT totals on the higher-ilvl items continuing to drop. We do still need SOME INT.
Also... being a hunter, you know we always get the shaft for group composition, and as such we don't always get that shadow-priest (maybe 40-50% of the time), that would be the only thing making a 2:1 rotation viable (and thus making our talisman viable). I still see [Tsunami Talisman] as being the survival hunter's holy grail, despite it dropping three instances ago, just as [Hourglass of the Unraveller] being the holy grail dropping 5-6 instances before that.
Thanks again for all comments, looking forward to more...
-End.
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Originally Posted by RDarkfire
Thanks for the input. Regarding my current armory which you obviously looked up, I am currently BM spec because for a long time I just didn't have the good survival gear needed to be competitive (SSC was NOT kind to me), however since Kael I have gotten a great string of survival gear, and as soon as either the T6 helm drops or I get exalted with scale o' the sands, I'm going to go back again .
So yes, I realize the violet signet sucks, I just needed it to max. out my hit rating for BM. As for the rest of your comments, I see Berserker's Call really as a BM-trinket that stacks on top of TBW when I pop it (as I do with BLB right now), it does nothing to really help with the theme of what survival is all about : critting as often as possible. Although I agree the DPS of Madness cannot be ignored, as well as freeing up that +20 hit for other things. @Tiberium: Thanks for your comments as well. Although there's no way I'm getting my hands on those rogue items anytime soon... the rogues need to get them first! :-P. Also, what's wrong with [Boneweave Girdle] and [Softstep Boots of Tracking]? My mana pool has already been suffering lately with INT totals on the higher-ilvl items continuing to drop. We do still need SOME INT. Also... being a hunter, you know we always get the shaft for group composition, and as such we don't always get that shadow-priest (maybe 40-50% of the time), that would be the only thing making a 2:1 rotation viable (and thus making our talisman viable). I still see [Tsunami Talisman] as being the survival hunter's holy grail, despite it dropping three instances ago, just as [Hourglass of the Unraveller] being the holy grail dropping 5-6 instances before that. Thanks again for all comments, looking forward to more... -End. |
The best way to get agility is through sockets, because the item budget doesn't pay for them like it would for straight agility. If you look at my gear, in every slot I'm using gear with the most possible sockets, so as to get the most agility. This doesn't mean you should ignore other stats, it just means they are weighted differently. I love stamina- I'm currently sitting at 10.5k hp unbuffed, which is more than our raiding mages and shadow priests have buffed. This means that for random raid damage, I have a higher buffer and will survive longer. After having tested sunwell, I'm finding stamina is even more important- the raid damage there is insane.
Intellect on the other hand, does nothing for me. I don't use AotV in raids (at least not progression raids), and max mana is meaningless compared to mana/5.
Regarding Tsunami Talisman vs Berserker's Call vs Madness of the Betrayer. According to cheeky's spreadsheet, Madness of the Betrayer is the obvious winner, with Tsunami Talisman and Berserker's Call coming in close. I've seen 2 Tsunami Talismans drop, and wasn't able to win it either time, whereas I could run ZA twice a week until my group had seen so many Berserker's Calls that one was destined to go to me. We don't do SSC any more, so I'm just going to stick with what I have. As well, I slightly prefer a use trinket over a proc trinket because I can time the use with Rapid Fire or Heroism, and thus get more out of it.
In a usual fight, I'll start with a misdirect, spend about 10 or 15 seconds in a 1:1.5 rotation, then feign death. After this, I'll pop Rapid Fire and Berserker's Call, which coincides with heroism. I drop down to a 3:2 rotation for the duration of the haste. At the end of heroism, I'll make a choice regarding the fight: is mana going to be an issue or not? If it is, I'll drink a Fel Mana Potion and go back to 1:1.5. If not, I'll drink a Haste Potion and continue 3:2 for another 15 seconds. I then settle back into a 1:1.5 rotation, using my Berserker's Call the moment it comes up, as well as another potion. At a little over 4 minutes into the fight, my Rapid Fire and Berserker's call will both be up again (I'm 1/2 on the rapid fire reduction), and I'll use both them and another pot. This continues until the fight is over.
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Originally Posted by PreTXT
I would like to ask for your support in helping me identify the optimal talent build according to my current gear level.
I have tried 2 builds so far: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Good personal DPS, but obviously EW uptime is not optimal. I usually get a less than ideal group during raid, which means a spot in the tanking group where the only benefit I have is LotP from a druid. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Seems to produce less DPS (about 100 DPS lower) although I don't have some solid numbers to verify that since group compositions changes between the raids I tested. However, a solid increase in EW uptime with this build. In terms of shot rotation I'm using 2 macros, depending on the hasted / non-hasted state I'm in: /cast !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /cast Steady Shot and /castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command During fights I normally try to keep myself hasted as much as possible (RF, drums, haste pots). This WWS log is from last evening Azgalor kill, however is actually lower than my regular DPS output due to 2 factors: pet died at the beginning (my mistake, I usually manage to keep him up) and lacking of any group buffs (I was in tanking group but didn't even had the druid to support me with LotP). Gear is also not very helpfull since I still have a mixture of Kara/T4/T5 due to the fact that I usually skip raiding farming content (not much time available) so it takes me a longer time to get myself at the same gear level as rest of raid. Since armory seems to be down, bellow is my current gear: 70 Night Elf Hunter Appreciate any advice ! |
- Survival is crit spec and having MT helps a lot with not only increasing damage by have more crits but also in procing our abilities that proc by crit, such as TotH, EW, some trinkets, etc.
- Readiness is very useful. Not only for more RF for higher DPS but also for more MDs and FDs to help manage personal and raid threat and increase your survivability.
- Reduces the amount of dynamic, temporary, and uncontrolled haste periods since no IatH. IatH can be a very useful and benefitial talent when used properly. But I find that with a 1:1.5 rotation that not switching to a 1:1 fast enough when the ability procs, which can easily be missed, can reduce the benefits.
- That third point in EW greatly increases your personal DPS and the raid DPS from EW, especially in non-ideal fights where you have to move around a lot or perform other actions that keeps you from executing your ideal rotation.
If you do go 0/20/41, I have one minor suggestion, that is preferential. There are benefits to having a point in IFD; however, the situations where that 2% comes into play are rare. Even rarer are when those situations are a life or death situation instead of just managing threat. Plus, with this spec, you often have the fallback (when no on CD) of Readiness and FDing again. Thus, suggest weighing the benefits of that point and other possibilities. My preference is Clever Traps so that my traps, when used, are a little more effective.
=====================
Concerning your gear, most of your gear is good survival gear, albeit some of it needs upgrading. Consider badge of justice and arena gear to possibly improve some slots over what you currentkly have.
The pieces that are not really ideal for survival are your neck (suggest having [Necklace of the Deep] made - for me its only +0.5 personal DPS but is +11.6 AP on EW proc for about +27.8 raid DPS using 0.3 conversion and 8 other physical DPS - its even better with +10 agi gems) and your melee weapon (many possibilities with agi on them that increase both DPS and EW proc) since they have no agility and am not only missing out on the agility from those pieces but also the bonus agility from LR and BoK. You also have 18 HR over the cap, so losing the arena axe will not hurt your to hit.
Another item to think about is different use of gems, if you are not already aware of the better survival hunter choices. Not suggesting you go out and regem what you currently have since that can be expensive, but I would definitely think about different choices when you get new items. Obviously, use +agi gems in all places, except for those to meet your meta gem requirements (with another possible exception of meeting +agi socket bonuses if provides a net benefit). For yellow sockets, I prefer +agi and +hit (glinting) gems to both get the agility benefits and help make the hit cap, although +AP and +crit (wicked) gems are good options too if have the hit rating although you lose agility. For blue sockets, I usually use +agi and +sta (shifting) unless I have some other non-standard blue gem available that works out better. For the blue and yellow socket requirements, some folks prefer green (jagged) gems with +crit and +sta so they can have more red agility gems. That's preference, but I find I usually have enough places to use the 2 yellow and 2 blue sockets to get +agi socket bonuses to make it worth while to use 4 non-red agility gems.
=====================
Concerning your switching to a 1:1 rotation under all haste effects, there is nothing wrong with that, but I want to bring something to your attention. I had done some analysis in a previous post of when switching to a 1:1 rotation under haste affects is actually benefitial for a 2.9 speed weapon like yours for a hunter using a 1:1.5 rotation without IAS. Switching for low haste effects (< about 300 total haste rating - this includes drums) can actually reduce your DPS instead of increasing it. This is partially because at the lower haste ratings, the 1:1 rotation is not a better DPS option than your unhasted 1:1.5 rotation. It is also due to the fact that a little bit of haste actually tightens up the 1:1.5 rotation with increasing its DPS.
Hence, you really do not get a benefit, besides conserving mana, to switch to the 1:1 rotation unless under high haste effects, such as RF or multiple smaller haste effects active simo. Another thing to consider is that if you are manually weaving your shots, even under standard high haste effects, there are still holes where additional specials can be cast to increase your DPS over the 1:1 rotation alone. Here is some data, using my character and modeling RF in Cheeky's:
1:1.5 with no RF: 1345.88 DPS and 294.42 EW AP
1:1 during RF: 1458.47 DPS and 295.59 EW AP
Arcane after every 5th steady during RF: 1497.87 DPS and 295.65 EW AP
1:1 with castrandom of multi, arcane, or steady during RF: 1516.03 DPS and 295.59 EW AP
Multishot after every 6th steady during RF: 1521.19 DPS and 295.80 EW AP
Just wanted to point this out. I realize that it is not practical to manually switch to the ideal rotation per whatever haste effects are present and that it just may be easier to always switch to 1:1 under haste, but I wanted to at least make you aware of the situation so that you can make whatever choices are best for you. Personally, I do not go to a 1:1 steady auto rotation under haste. Under low haste, I stick with my 1:1.5 rotation. Under high haste, I switch to a 1:1 with casting a single special, preferrably multishot, after an appropriate amount of steady shots. Now I realize that for RFs short duration, that this allows me to only get in one extra shot, but that is 1 extra shot. But with Readiness, we can chain back to back RFs, allowing 2 to 3 extra shots. Plus, there are other longer haste effects that can be going on simo for a net long duration haste effect.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Just killed Gorefiend with the /cast macro, 2112 dps as imp arcane shot... holy hell! I'll have WWS later tonight, so I'll be editing this post.
Edit: According to WWS, it was 2143 DPS in a fight that lasted 3:06. Wow Web Stats |
I was doing some searching, and was wondering what /cast macro you may be refering to.
I'm guessing a
/cast !autoshot
/cast Steadyshot
/castrandom arcane shot
or something of the like - but I cant find the information in the thread to back up these beliefs.
PreTXT - I agree with a lot of what Whitefyst has said. From another hunters pov I would spend the money and regem your gear to meet your meta, and get as many points of agi you can. Like he said find some weps that have agi, Stellaris x2, Sonic Spear (too much hit though), Emerald Ripper, Netherbane X2, Trollbane (AWESOME axe), ect.
This is the spec I normally roll with, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Also again I really agree with Whitefyst, and haste effects and survival don't mix much. Ive done some dr boom testing (i dont have the cool reports like he does) and a 1:1.5 rotation is amazing. I use rapid fire and 1:1 rotation when im between pot cd's and getting low on mana.
This is my bread and butter macro,
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
gotta jet hope it helps
This is the spec I normally roll with, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Also again I really agree with Whitefyst, and haste effects and survival don't mix much. Ive done some dr boom testing (i dont have the cool reports like he does) and a 1:1.5 rotation is amazing. I use rapid fire and 1:1 rotation when im between pot cd's and getting low on mana.
This is my bread and butter macro,
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
gotta jet hope it helps
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Originally Posted by Exbox
I was doing some searching, and was wondering what /cast macro you may be refering to.
I'm guessing a /cast !autoshot /cast Steadyshot /castrandom arcane shot or something of the like - but I cant find the information in the thread to back up these beliefs. |
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
and for hasted periods I used
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Ah it's just the 1:1.5 straight up. and by hasted you mean > 2.0-2.2 correct? because anything above it isn't worth it.
I want your DST sir.
I want your DST sir.
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Originally Posted by Exbox
I want your DST sir. |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I don't have a DST... >.>
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Just Heroism and Rapid?
Heroism, Rapid Fire, and Haste Potions. Between those 3, you're talking 45 seconds, which is a meaningful amount of time.
Any thoughts
Hi all, any thoughts on upgrades to the gear that I have - just starting SSC/TK now, but am i missing something that I should have already? 31% crit seems kind of low to me at this stage (from the in game calculation) - why does Cheeky's calculate it higher at 34.63%... Also, Im a bit confused on the whole shot rotation/macro discussion... which is best for someone like me and what macro would I use - I assume that is instead of trying to hit the keys on my own... thanks
As a supplement to post 17 in this thread thought it would be a fun thing to post a best in slot Survival setup at end game using "realistic" restraints thus the following caveats.
1) Use the 4 piece Gronnstalker's plus [Bow-stitched Leggings] as the base combo as I think everyone agrees this is the best set up
2) Use the highest Agi items available
3) Exclude the use of [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] as it would take 6 months of farming Illi before dropping to a hunter. Exclude also [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Quickstrider Moccasins] although these provide better personal DPS, they have less Agi.
4) Achieve 96 hit rating required for SV
Also included is a perfect gem distribution and enchants just for completeness.
Weapon
We'll take [Halberd of Desolation]for the hit, although [Trollbane] has more Agi
[Formula: Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]
Helmet:
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Neck:
[Necklace of the Deep] although [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] is probably the neck of choice
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Back:
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Elixir of Greater Agility]
Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Smooth Lionseye] Take the crit here as it gives the additional 4 Agi
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
Wrists:
[Bracers of the Pathfinder]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Enchant Bracer - Stats]
Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Belt:
[Belt of Deep Shadow]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Legs:
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Feet:
[Cobra-Lash Boots]
[Formula: Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] nice Agi bonus and helps with the Meta Bonus
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Rings:
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
Trinkets:
[Tsunami Talisman] Taken for the 10 hit more than anything else
[Madness of the Betrayer] Needed for the hit
Ranged Weapon:
[Barrel-Blade Longrifle] although most will take [Bristleblitz Striker]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
With this set up we achieve max Agi and 1 hit point over cap when using [Necklace of the Deep], 2 under if we use [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
1) Use the 4 piece Gronnstalker's plus [Bow-stitched Leggings] as the base combo as I think everyone agrees this is the best set up
2) Use the highest Agi items available
3) Exclude the use of [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] as it would take 6 months of farming Illi before dropping to a hunter. Exclude also [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Quickstrider Moccasins] although these provide better personal DPS, they have less Agi.
4) Achieve 96 hit rating required for SV
Also included is a perfect gem distribution and enchants just for completeness.
Weapon
We'll take [Halberd of Desolation]for the hit, although [Trollbane] has more Agi
[Formula: Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]
Helmet:
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Neck:
[Necklace of the Deep] although [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] is probably the neck of choice
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Back:
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Elixir of Greater Agility]
Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Smooth Lionseye] Take the crit here as it gives the additional 4 Agi
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
Wrists:
[Bracers of the Pathfinder]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Enchant Bracer - Stats]
Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Belt:
[Belt of Deep Shadow]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Legs:
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Feet:
[Cobra-Lash Boots]
[Formula: Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] nice Agi bonus and helps with the Meta Bonus
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Rings:
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
Trinkets:
[Tsunami Talisman] Taken for the 10 hit more than anything else
[Madness of the Betrayer] Needed for the hit
Ranged Weapon:
[Barrel-Blade Longrifle] although most will take [Bristleblitz Striker]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
With this set up we achieve max Agi and 1 hit point over cap when using [Necklace of the Deep], 2 under if we use [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
Tiberium by realistic restraints do you mean your exluding 2.4 gear? I ask because there are some really nice peices i think would go good in a Surv set. Espcially with 3 extra peices of T6 to help get the 4 peice easier.
readyness
Whats the thought on the readyness talent - is it worth getting over perhaps geting other bits on trees that can enhance ur dps or AGI further suce as
7/21/33 For alot more dps (Hunter Talents)
0/27/34 For maxing your agi build to boost more (Hunter Talents)
just trying to weigh it out
7/21/33 For alot more dps (Hunter Talents)
0/27/34 For maxing your agi build to boost more (Hunter Talents)
just trying to weigh it out
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
As a supplement to post 17 in this thread thought it would be a fun thing to post a best in slot Survival setup at end game using "realistic" restraints thus the following caveats.
1) Use the 4 piece Gronnstalker's plus [Bow-stitched Leggings] as the base combo as I think everyone agrees this is the best set up 2) Use the highest Agi items available 3) Exclude the use of [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] as it would take 6 months of farming Illi before dropping to a hunter. Exclude also [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Quickstrider Moccasins] although these provide better personal DPS, they have less Agi. 4) Achieve 96 hit rating required for SV |
I made a list here as well : Random Ravings of Warcraft: Survival hunter gear
With Tier 4, tier 5, tier 6, and sunwell setups in mind.
It's not perfect yet, but suggestions are always welcome.
I also haven't listed exactly which gems to use yet, i probably should.
#1 : Obvious choice.
#2 : Obvious choice.
#3 : The money belt is actually very good, and not a single rogue in our guild has rolled for it yet.
#4 : 95 hit rating is the cap if you are not using 20 hit rating food, or don't have a Moonkin druid in the raid. If your raid has a moonkin the hit cap suddenly becomes a mere 48, which is quite easily reached, and will allow you to move a few talent points around.
Could you add a total calculation how much agility, hit rating, armor penetration your gear setup provides?
And, could you make a setup for 2.4 as well?
This would make it easier to analyze your list, and give constructive feedback.
Instead of yellow gems, you could use [Glinting Pyrestone] to provide more hit rating.
[Dagger of Bad Mojo] is said to be a better choice than the halberd, the armor penetration will greatly improve your personal dps, gives only slightly less, and will enable you to use two mana oils instead of a single one.
Last edited by Zurgat : 03/14/08 at 11:04 AM.
Tiberium-
You said Barrel-Blade Longrifle, did you mean Legionkiller? I have my eye on the Legionkiller as it has agi on it good slow speed and we raid with 3 hunters total so the others can have the other ranged weps.
Regarding Dagger of Bad Mojo, per my calcs, 2x Blade of Infamy are better than anything else, even Trollbane with Spinels in it. To the tune of like 5 personal dps and 4 agi. Is there something that I am missing with the Mojo's?
You said Barrel-Blade Longrifle, did you mean Legionkiller? I have my eye on the Legionkiller as it has agi on it good slow speed and we raid with 3 hunters total so the others can have the other ranged weps.
Regarding Dagger of Bad Mojo, per my calcs, 2x Blade of Infamy are better than anything else, even Trollbane with Spinels in it. To the tune of like 5 personal dps and 4 agi. Is there something that I am missing with the Mojo's?
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Tiberium-
You said Barrel-Blade Longrifle, did you mean Legionkiller? I have my eye on the Legionkiller as it has agi on it good slow speed and we raid with 3 hunters total so the others can have the other ranged weps. Regarding Dagger of Bad Mojo, per my calcs, 2x Blade of Infamy are better than anything else, even Trollbane with Spinels in it. To the tune of like 5 personal dps and 4 agi. Is there something that I am missing with the Mojo's? |
And you are correct about Blades of Infamy being > anything else for max agility.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
And you are correct about Blades of Infamy being > anything else for max agility.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Schniepel
Actually dual [Umbral Shiv] with spinels would give 8 agility more, although being obviously worse in terms of personal dps.
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Last edited by Sore82 : 03/14/08 at 12:27 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tiberium-
I think you're missing some important pieces in your estimate, because you're completely ignoring personal dps. I'd argue that in some instances, your personal dps is also important and should not be ignored. Some of your other restraints are odd: for instance, I've managed to pick up a Cursed Vision of Sargeras, as has our enhancement shaman. We've seen 4 of them drop so far, and I believe I may have beaten out a rogue to the second- if it's best in slot, it's best in slot. Don Alejandro's Money Belt and Quickstrider Moccasins are also peices I'd recommend using, because they mean a *slight* drop in agility while adding considerably more stats for personal dps. I'm pretty sure I logged out in PVP gear (yes, that's how terrible my PVP gear is...) but aside from swapping Akama ring for Signet of Primal Wrath, I think my gear setup is ideal for a survival hunter entering Sunwell.
Helm: [Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
Neck: [Necklace of the Deep]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Greater Inscription of the Blade] (because I'm Scryer)
Back: [Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
Chest: [Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
Bracers: [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
24AP to Bracers (can't find it in wowhead)
Gloves: [Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
Belt: [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Pants: [Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
Boots: [Quickstrider Moccasins]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
Ring1: [Band of the Eternal Champion]
Ring2: [Signet of Primal Wrath]
Trinket1: [Berserker's Call]
Trinket2: [Madness of the Betrayer]
Melee Weapon: [Halberd of Desolation]
[Legplates of the Bold]
Ranged Weapon: [Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it- this has been my ideal gear setup, and if I can improve on it I'd like to.
Edit: dang I suck at links.
I think you're missing some important pieces in your estimate, because you're completely ignoring personal dps. I'd argue that in some instances, your personal dps is also important and should not be ignored. Some of your other restraints are odd: for instance, I've managed to pick up a Cursed Vision of Sargeras, as has our enhancement shaman. We've seen 4 of them drop so far, and I believe I may have beaten out a rogue to the second- if it's best in slot, it's best in slot. Don Alejandro's Money Belt and Quickstrider Moccasins are also peices I'd recommend using, because they mean a *slight* drop in agility while adding considerably more stats for personal dps. I'm pretty sure I logged out in PVP gear (yes, that's how terrible my PVP gear is...) but aside from swapping Akama ring for Signet of Primal Wrath, I think my gear setup is ideal for a survival hunter entering Sunwell.
Helm: [Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
Neck: [Necklace of the Deep]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Greater Inscription of the Blade] (because I'm Scryer)
Back: [Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
Chest: [Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
Bracers: [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
24AP to Bracers (can't find it in wowhead)
Gloves: [Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
Belt: [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Pants: [Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
Boots: [Quickstrider Moccasins]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
Ring1: [Band of the Eternal Champion]
Ring2: [Signet of Primal Wrath]
Trinket1: [Berserker's Call]
Trinket2: [Madness of the Betrayer]
Melee Weapon: [Halberd of Desolation]
[Legplates of the Bold]
Ranged Weapon: [Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it- this has been my ideal gear setup, and if I can improve on it I'd like to.
Edit: dang I suck at links.
Last edited by SomeRandomIdiot : 03/14/08 at 12:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by jsegrich
Hi all, any thoughts on upgrades to the gear that I have - just starting SSC/TK now, but am i missing something that I should have already? 31% crit seems kind of low to me at this stage (from the in game calculation) - why does Cheeky's calculate it higher at 34.63%... Also, Im a bit confused on the whole shot rotation/macro discussion... which is best for someone like me and what macro would I use - I assume that is instead of trying to hit the keys on my own... thanks
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Concerning you spec, I like it for the most part, but them again it is nearly identical to mine so I am a little partial. One comment is that you have 2 points in Trap Mastery. As has been documented in this thread, you only need 1 point in Trap Mastery in order to be able to trap everything that can be trapped. The 2nd point is a waste. Suggest moving it to something else lower in the tree. My preferences are Deterrence (can save your live in many situations, especially while waiting for FD to cooldown) or Clever Traps.
Concerning your gear, for the most part, you have very good gear for starting SSC/TK; however, I do have a few observations and comments:
1) Your base mana is low. Unless you have a SP, ret pally, or shaman helping with mana regen, I forsee some possible mana problems. This is due to wearing leather pieces. There is nothing wrong with wearing leather for better DPS as long as it doesn't cause you to go OOM and actually kick out less DPS. If you are not having mana problems, then disregard this item. But if you are, I suggest replacing 1 or more of the leather pieces, even if it results in less agility. This wearing on leather also results in lower armor and survivability.
2) You have some unideal, and in some cases just plain weird, gem choices. These are:
- The +4 agi and +5 def gem in your shoulders. Why +def? My preference for yellow gems for meta and socket bonus requirements are [Glinting Noble Topaz] since provides agility and hit. Other good options if do not care about the agi as much, which I do, are [Wicked Noble Topaz], which generall gives slightly better DPS than the glinting but at a cost of you EW proc, and [Jagged Talasite], which is preferred by those wanting to get there meta gem requirements with using less non-agility gems.
- In your helm is a +8 crit gem. This is not bad for a yellow socket requirement, but either of the two Noble Topaz options above are better.
- In your gloves is the +15 sta gem. I can understand the desire to use such a good gem; however, in my opinion, [Shifting Nightseye] is better. Sure you lose 9 sta, but that is only about 100 health, but you gain 4 agi, which is 5.06 with LR and BoK. IMO, the +5 AP, +0.23% crit, +10 armor, +0.20% dodge, and +1.27 AP on EW proc you get from the 5.06 agi far outweigh 100 health.
3) I see that you are in an arena team, but am not wearing any arena gear. Some of the arena pieces, such as the s3 helm, s2 shoulders, and s3 legs, are big upgrades. Suggest getting the s3 helm first, since its a huge upgrade over T4 and is better than anything until T6.
4) Another way to help with mana problems if you have any are to acquire 2 1 hand weapons and put mana oils on both. In TK, [Netherbane] off of Alar is a great option that also is superior to Legacy. [Dagger of Bad Mojo] off of Hexxlord in ZA are also good as are a few other options currently available to you.
Good luck!
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Tiberium-
I think you're missing some important pieces in your estimate, because you're completely ignoring personal dps. I'd argue that in some instances, your personal dps is also important and should not be ignored. Some of your other restraints are odd: for instance, I've managed to pick up a Cursed Vision of Sargeras, as has our enhancement shaman. We've seen 4 of them drop so far, and I believe I may have beaten out a rogue to the second- if it's best in slot, it's best in slot. Don Alejandro's Money Belt and Quickstrider Moccasins are also peices I'd recommend using, because they mean a *slight* drop in agility while adding considerably more stats for personal dps. I'm pretty sure I logged out in PVP gear (yes, that's how terrible my PVP gear is...) but aside from swapping Akama ring for Signet of Primal Wrath, I think my gear setup is ideal for a survival hunter entering Sunwell. |
My goal as a survival hunter is to maximize my overall raid DPS contribution. This means balancing my personal DPS and my EW proc. Some items will improve both, but much more often items are a tradeoff between the two. Now this tradeoff is not an exact science since you have the AP to DPS conversion which is not constant between classes and the benefit of EW depends not only on the number of physical DPS in the raid but also the number of them on your target.
To do the trade off, I use Cheeky's spreadsheet to determine the delta personal DPS and delta AP on average EW of a possible upgrade item against my current item. I then determine the delta raid DPS by adding the personal DPS to (delta AP for EW proc * 0.3 * 8 other physical DPS). If the net result is a positive, it is an upgrade for me. In some cases, I may choose an item with a slight negative value if it has a large personal DPS gain since that item will probably result in overall more raid damage since I am not always on the same target as all of the other physical DPS.
I like SomeRandomIdiot choices better. However, going with his gear selection, I would switch two gems though. In the chest, where he put a purple gem in a yellow slot, I would instead but the red gem. Then in the bracers, I would replace the red gem in the blue socket with a purple gem. Basically, just switching the 2 gems in the indicated sockets. The benefit is not much, but it is 0.9 personal DPS and 0.03 average EW proc.
I would also offer a couple gear changes from his choices. These are to replace the bracers with the [Insidious Bands] with the orange gem and the boots with [Star-Strider Boots] with 2 red gems. This requires a little regemming in other slots to make the meta requirements. I change 1 red in the shoulders to a purple to meet meta requirements. This results in being under the hit cap by 4 points, which is no big deal. The result is +5.72 personal DPS and +2.24 AP on average EW proc for a total of +11.10 raid DPS over the regemmed version of SomeRandomIdiot's list.
Now if you really want that hit cap, you could replace the red in the yellow socket of the shoulders with an orange to get one over the cap by 1 and to meet that piece's socket bonus. This results in +0.76 personal DPS but -1.58 AP on average EW proc for a total loss of about 3 raid DPS. So, I personally would live with being a little under the cap.
Note that this analysis was done with my 0/20/41 spec and a 1:1.5 rotation that uses both arcane shot and multishot on my Tauren. Results will vary with different specs, rotations, and races.
For my suggestion, here are the total unbuffed stats:
Health: 10947
Armor: 7215
Mana: 6523
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 32.87%
Hit vs. Level 73: 99.77% (91 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 40.74%
Hunter DPS: 1003.43
Pet DPS: 171.11
Total DPS: 1174.54
EW Uptime: 96.47%
Average EW proc: 231.03 AP
Effective RAP: 3325
From gear with enchants and race:
Armor: 5299
Strength: 75
Agility: 958
Stamina: 609
Intellect: 228
Spirit: 81
AP: 1198
Crit: 161
Hit: 91
mp5: 12
Pen: 392
Haste: 0
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/14/08 at 7:53 PM. Reason: Added additional analysis and options and total unbuffed stats
I would suggest going with SomeRandomIdiot's setup with the following changes:
[Cobra-Lash Boots]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Insidious Bands]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
All other gems would be [Delicate Crimson Spinel].
You'll gain some hit and agility over what you have there unless my math is bad. Which is possible. I'd suggest perhaps including the following information with the best possible gear propositions in the future:
Agi
Crit
AP
Hit
ArPen
Might make comparison a little more straightforward.
[Cobra-Lash Boots]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Insidious Bands]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
All other gems would be [Delicate Crimson Spinel].
You'll gain some hit and agility over what you have there unless my math is bad. Which is possible. I'd suggest perhaps including the following information with the best possible gear propositions in the future:
Agi
Crit
AP
Hit
ArPen
Might make comparison a little more straightforward.
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Originally Posted by jsegrich
Whats the thought on the readyness talent - is it worth getting over perhaps geting other bits on trees that can enhance ur dps or AGI further suce as
7/21/33 For alot more dps (Hunter Talents) 0/27/34 For maxing your agi build to boost more (Hunter Talents) just trying to weigh it out |
@somerandomidiot
You talk about the importance of personal DPS and yet you'd rather sport a double spinel Necklace of the Deep over the Telonicus piece?
BTW nice WWS Gorefiend log, but being able to roll 2 lusts is hardly the norm. People should take that log with a grain of salt.
You talk about the importance of personal DPS and yet you'd rather sport a double spinel Necklace of the Deep over the Telonicus piece?
BTW nice WWS Gorefiend log, but being able to roll 2 lusts is hardly the norm. People should take that log with a grain of salt.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Id prefer [Shadowmaster's Boots]. I havent ran it through the spreadsheets, but from a quick look it seems to be better. More stam too is always an important thing.
Also I think it's a little silly to exclude Cursed Vision, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's, etc. If we're making a 'best in game' set, it's safe to assume we have access to it.
(on that note, we've had 9 Cursed Visions drop in 26 kills. First went to a shaman, then a rogue > shaman > hunter > hunter > rogue > hunter > rogue > druid. Quite a retarded amount of one item. However we've had zero glaives and only 1 bow in those 26 kills )
Also I think it's a little silly to exclude Cursed Vision, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's, etc. If we're making a 'best in game' set, it's safe to assume we have access to it.
(on that note, we've had 9 Cursed Visions drop in 26 kills. First went to a shaman, then a rogue > shaman > hunter > hunter > rogue > hunter > rogue > druid. Quite a retarded amount of one item. However we've had zero glaives and only 1 bow in those 26 kills )
Last edited by Intermission : 03/15/08 at 9:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by CSM-EH
@somerandomidiot
You talk about the importance of personal DPS and yet you'd rather sport a double spinel Necklace of the Deep over the Telonicus piece? BTW nice WWS Gorefiend log, but being able to roll 2 lusts is hardly the norm. People should take that log with a grain of salt. |
And maybe he doesnt have the Telonicus chain?
A.K.A. Guild doesnt want to farm Kael?
Or Some other people have very viable upgrades as well
I'd be using Telonicus neck if I could get a hold of it, but I wasn't able to pick it up when we were killing Kael, and we haven't killed him in forever. I gear for raid dps as a whole, and my personal dps is certainly a part of the raid dps. Whytefist spelled it out really well in his earlier post.
Regarding the heroisms, I wasn't claiming to have posted 'the best hunter wws ever' or whatever else you think it may have been. I got some incredible numbers, but that's all they are. They're not even the highest I've seen posted- Kurkis has me easily beat in some of his WWS logs. They are, however, certainly worth mentioning, as I was pretty shocked when I saw them myself. A lot of people come to EJ looking for information, and it's certainly informative to see what kind of damage a survival hunter can do.
Regarding the heroisms, I wasn't claiming to have posted 'the best hunter wws ever' or whatever else you think it may have been. I got some incredible numbers, but that's all they are. They're not even the highest I've seen posted- Kurkis has me easily beat in some of his WWS logs. They are, however, certainly worth mentioning, as I was pretty shocked when I saw them myself. A lot of people come to EJ looking for information, and it's certainly informative to see what kind of damage a survival hunter can do.
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Originally Posted by CSM-EH
@somerandomidiot
You talk about the importance of personal DPS and yet you'd rather sport a double spinel Necklace of the Deep over the Telonicus piece? BTW nice WWS Gorefiend log, but being able to roll 2 lusts is hardly the norm. People should take that log with a grain of salt. |
"I think you're missing some important pieces in your estimate, because you're completely ignoring personal dps. I'd argue that in some instances, your personal dps is also important and should not be ignored. "
This does not mean that he takes personal DPS as the highest priority, only that it needs to be considered and factored in to not sacrifice personal DPS solely to maximize the EW proc. He seems to think similar to me that the balance between personal DPS and EW proc needs to be found to optimize total raid DPS contribution. With that in mind, Necklace of the Deep is superior over the Kael neck.
The difference on my character with my rotation is -4.5 personal DPS for the Necklace of the Deep but +4.54 AP on average EW proc. Assuming 0.3 AP to DPS conversion, then there only needs to be 4 (3.3 rounded up) other physical DPS on the target to make Necklace of the Deep provide better overall raid DPS. Considering that for boss fights that the vast majority of the time that everyone is on the same target, Necklace of the Deep seems the better decision to me, but I can also understand others choosing the Kael neck if they have it.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Id prefer [Shadowmaster's Boots]. I havent ran it through the spreadsheets, but from a quick look it seems to be better. More stam too is always an important thing.
Also I think it's a little silly to exclude Cursed Vision, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's, etc. If we're making a 'best in game' set, it's safe to assume we have access to it. (on that note, we've had around 7 Cursed Visions drop. First went to a shaman, then a hunter, then a rogue, then 2 more hunters, another shaman, then a feral druid. However we've had zero glaives and only 1 bow... and 23432225 caster helms) |
However, I didn't list it in my preferred set since it would make it my 3rd leather piece, and I prefer to have 2 or less pieces of leather since too much leather reduces my mana pool and my AoV regen (when being used) too much that I would probably have mana problems despite BoW, mana oil (only a single mana oil with the 2-hander), major mageblood potion, and mana pots if I do not have a shaman in my group to drop mana spring totem (never get SP since we only have 1 and we don't have a raiding ret pally). More than 2 pieces of leather is not really viable for me.
Of the 2 I chose and this piece, I personally prefer the other 2 pieces since they both increase EW proc. Furthermore, the belt is far superior choice realtively speaking than the boots, and I prefer the bracers over the boots, although the boots are a little better DPS option, because of the needed 12 HR.
But I can definitely see some people choosing those boots since they are a good option.
And I agree that no viable pieces should be excluded from the discussion. Cursed Vision is an awesome piece, and once other T6 pieces become available with 2.4 to provide more flexibility in getting the 4 set bonus, Cursed Vision will probably move onto my list, at least until I can get Duplicitous Guise.
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Originally Posted by Exbox
Regardless, 2112 as a Survival hunter is nothing to downsize.
And maybe he doesnt have the Telonicus chain? A.K.A. Guild doesnt want to farm Kael? Or Some other people have very viable upgrades as well |
Because the long list of gear that was initially put together earlier in this thread was done so to list HIS gear... and not the ideal survival hunter gear... right?
Sorry but I'm not a WWSScoreboard subscriber. You can fap to his extremely favorable raid conditioned numbers, but it's hardly instructional.
As far as the worth of a double spinneled Necklace of the Deep, I encourage you to run the numbers with the ideal gear set-up, and not what you're currently sporting Whitefyst.
Haywire, I've seen almost every piece of loot in the game drop multiple times. If I wasn't wearing what I considered to be the ideal survival gearset, I'd be a fool. As far as necklaces are concerned, I think 2x Living Rubies in a Necklace of the Deep < Telonicus Pendant < 2x Crimson Spinels in a Necklace of the Deep. I don't see how a different gear level would affect that- you're still comparing 27 agi and 70 AP to 41 agi and 3 hit rating. 14 agi / 4 = 3.5 AP per member of the raid.
Telonicus Pendant: (6.75 AP from EW x # of physical raid members) + 97 AP + .675% crit.
Necklace of the Deep: (10.25 AP from EW x # of physical raid members) + 41 AP + 1.025% crit
The value of which one is better really depends on how many physical dps/tanks are in your raid. I use what I have because I don't have any other options, and I don't have 2k gold to blow on 2x Crimson Spinels with the 2.4 changes regarding them.
As far as the dps I posted, what else about the setup is "extremely favorable" besides the 2nd heroism? We usually get a shaman and a feral druid, it's just that in this case another shaman swapped himself in for a 2nd heroism. I'm under the impression that a 3 minute Gorefiend kill is pretty average for guilds farming Illidan- if our time was ~2 minutes (yes, the top guilds who run only 4 healers can do that), then I think you'd have an argument, but as it is you seem to be picking nits.
Telonicus Pendant: (6.75 AP from EW x # of physical raid members) + 97 AP + .675% crit.
Necklace of the Deep: (10.25 AP from EW x # of physical raid members) + 41 AP + 1.025% crit
The value of which one is better really depends on how many physical dps/tanks are in your raid. I use what I have because I don't have any other options, and I don't have 2k gold to blow on 2x Crimson Spinels with the 2.4 changes regarding them.
As far as the dps I posted, what else about the setup is "extremely favorable" besides the 2nd heroism? We usually get a shaman and a feral druid, it's just that in this case another shaman swapped himself in for a 2nd heroism. I'm under the impression that a 3 minute Gorefiend kill is pretty average for guilds farming Illidan- if our time was ~2 minutes (yes, the top guilds who run only 4 healers can do that), then I think you'd have an argument, but as it is you seem to be picking nits.
I've actually been trying to put together an ideal gear set but have come across the same problems. It isn't necessarily what gear wins piece vs piece but the best combination for overall stats. The 2 outcomes so far were along the lines of...
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
I'm still running numbers and mix'n'matching different gear sets to try to find the optimal numbers.
Personally I've found Telonicus' neck to be better than a necklace of the deep with 2 spinels on all gearsets. While it's true that your main consideration should be the Agi count toward EW, it's worth taking into considerion how much melee you have in your raid on average and not in a best case scenario. It's also worth mentioning that EW is not 100% uptime so working out a precise AP score for Agility won't be true, strictly speaking. It will be averaged out to 85-95% of the direct AP benefit.
On a side note, I'm still testing your suggested rotation haywire. It is more dps but not to the degree I had hoped. I'll be using a highly mana efficient version (as opposed to the high dps version) over the next 1-2 weeks. There is a test spec page on my site.
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
I'm still running numbers and mix'n'matching different gear sets to try to find the optimal numbers.
Personally I've found Telonicus' neck to be better than a necklace of the deep with 2 spinels on all gearsets. While it's true that your main consideration should be the Agi count toward EW, it's worth taking into considerion how much melee you have in your raid on average and not in a best case scenario. It's also worth mentioning that EW is not 100% uptime so working out a precise AP score for Agility won't be true, strictly speaking. It will be averaged out to 85-95% of the direct AP benefit.
On a side note, I'm still testing your suggested rotation haywire. It is more dps but not to the degree I had hoped. I'll be using a highly mana efficient version (as opposed to the high dps version) over the next 1-2 weeks. There is a test spec page on my site.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Haywire, I've seen almost every piece of loot in the game drop multiple times. If I wasn't wearing what I considered to be the ideal survival gearset, I'd be a fool. As far as necklaces are concerned, I think 2x Living Rubies in a Necklace of the Deep < Telonicus Pendant < 2x Crimson Spinels in a Necklace of the Deep. I don't see how a different gear level would affect that- you're still comparing 27 agi and 70 AP to 41 agi and 3 hit rating. 14 agi / 4 = 3.5 AP per member of the raid.
Telonicus Pendant: (6.75 AP from EW x # of physical raid members) + 97 AP + .675% crit. Necklace of the Deep: (10.25 AP from EW x # of physical raid members) + 41 AP + 1.025% crit The value of which one is better really depends on how many physical dps/tanks are in your raid. I use what I have because I don't have any other options, and I don't have 2k gold to blow on 2x Crimson Spinels with the 2.4 changes regarding them. As far as the dps I posted, what else about the setup is "extremely favorable" besides the 2nd heroism? We usually get a shaman and a feral druid, it's just that in this case another shaman swapped himself in for a 2nd heroism. I'm under the impression that a 3 minute Gorefiend kill is pretty average for guilds farming Illidan- if our time was ~2 minutes (yes, the top guilds who run only 4 healers can do that), then I think you'd have an argument, but as it is you seem to be picking nits. |
At 50% crit, an increase of 1.025% crit vs. .675% crit are one and the same; a differential of 56 AP isn't, and is considerable on a personal level...thus the importance of using a strong gear set as your base. Are you really telling me that 3.5 AP for 6-7 members is better than 56 personal AP?
The second lust is the "extremely favorable" factor I'm referring to... I wasn't aware I needed more than 1 to make that claim in the first place. My point is that there are people hoping to learn from this thread and you have them believing that 2.1K DPS is a norm output. With an ideal gear set, and rolling lusts on a meter whore friendly, tank and spank fight thats sub 3 minutes, yea its obtainable, but so what? Thats my point. I'm not questioning the validity of the numbers, merely the functionality.
shot rotation
I know this is a basic question, but how do i set up a shot rotation macro and which one should I be using?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by CSM-EH
As far as the worth of a double spinneled Necklace of the Deep, I encourage you to run the numbers with the ideal gear set-up, and not what you're currently sporting Whitefyst.
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With that said, I have on several occassions compared the Necklace of the Deep against the Kael neck for my current gear as my gear has changed to help verify that the Necklace of the Deep (with 2 spindels) is still better. And although the relative differences do vary a little, the Necklace of the Deep comes out on top. So that is my choice, along with the fact that I will probably never get the Kael neck.
In addition, the other day when I was listing what I thought was the ideal hunter gear prior to 2.4, I didn't just assume or guess it. I put the gear options and gem options into Cheeky's to determine which worked out best. For that ideal gear set, the Necklace of the Deep worked better for my character (i.e. race and spec) with the rotation that I use.
As I also stated, results can vary depending on other players characters and their rotations. So you may actually get a different result with your character if you are a different race, have a different spec, and/or a different rotation than me.
With that said, why are you being so confortational?
EDIT: Another factor to consider concerning the benefit of the Necklace of the Deep is that the socket bonus provides 3 hit. If you are not already hit capped, this small amount of hit rating does provide additional increase in DPS. Obviously, if you are hit capped without the 3 hit rating from this neck (or don't need all 3 points to be hit capped), the additional benefits of the Necklace of the Deep will be smaller. In these cases, the Kael neck can be superior. This was one factor left out of SomeRandomIdiots response.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/15/08 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Mentioning hit
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Well yes indeed I was more than aware of the max DPS items available to us and I have already posted the single most DPS setup available (using Cheeky's) here http://elitistjerks.com/668145-post1193.html If nothing else it has got some decent discussion going for best setups.
Aye, aside from making sure I have 210 bages for 2.4 for the melee ring and to play around with the bow I'm not that interested in 2.4 until we have some of the content on farm at least.
Aye, stats for the Agi build are:- using Kael neck
Health: 10,162
Armor: 7557
Mana: 7228
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 34.48%
Hit vs. Level 73: 99.96% (94 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 43.16%
Hunter DPS: 1028.97
Pet DPS: 192.37
Total DPS: 1221.34
EW Uptime: 98.11%
Average EW proc: 244.83 AP
Effective RAP: 3307
From gear with enchants and race:
Armor: 5561
Strength: 84
Agility: 998
Stamina: 585
Intellect: 275
Spirit: 100
AP: 1144
Crit: 186
Hit: 94
mp5: 8
Pen: 392
Haste: 0
I'm well aware what [Glinting Pyrestone] can do, however as you can see its not needed. As for the 2 X [Dagger of Bad Mojo] they provide the best DPS for sure but they give Zero Hit which is a problem at this gear level.
See below for the gear swaps recomended if you want to chase personal DPS
Whitefyst I agree with most of the info you post generally however this is one that I simply can't agree on. Given your criteria of a max limit of 2 leather pieces justifying you choosing [Star-Strider Boots] I would argue that [Cobra-Lash Boots] are a superior non leather choice. Not only are the int and stamina stas superior, the 3 agi bonus actually supports the meta as a 3rd bonus.
So all in all we have 4 leather pieces up for grabs, these are [Cursed Vision of Sargeras], [Don Alejandro's Money Belt], [Shadowmaster's Boots] and [Insidious Bands]. All 4 provide DPS upgrades over the max Agi items posted above. The really sad thing with this set up is we drop possibly the single most awsome survival piece in the game, [Bow-stitched Leggings] in favour of the very ordinary [Gronnstalker's Leggings]
If its personal DPS that you want then simply substitute all 4 leather pieces for max DPS, the only exceptions are the awsome wrists [Insidious Bands], which I somehow missed and the very interesting haste pieces [Cloak of Fiends], [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] which also increase personal DPS hugely (according to Cheeky's).
So to conclude this is the 1/2 way house setup considered to be "best"
Weapon
[Halberd of Desolation]for the hit, although 2 X [Dagger of Bad Mojo] are a substantial DPS upgrade
[Formula: Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]
Helmet:
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Neck:
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Back:
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Elixir of Greater Agility]
Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
Wrists:
[Insidious Bands]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Enchant Bracer - Stats]
Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Belt:
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Legs:
[Gronnstalker's Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Feet:
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Formula: Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Rings:
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
Trinkets:
[Berserker's Call]
[Madness of the Betrayer] Needed for the hit
Ranged Weapon:
[Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
Stats for this set up are:-
Health: 11086
Armor: 6461
Mana: 6058
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 32.36%
Hit vs. Level 73: 100% (99 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 42.88%
Hunter DPS: 1095.02
Pet DPS: 190.36
Total DPS: 1285.39
EW Uptime: 97.66%
Average EW proc: 236.33 AP
Effective RAP: 3405
From gear with enchants and race:
Armor: 4570
Strength: 84
Agility: 945
Stamina: 669
Intellect: 197
Spirit: 100
AP: 1288
Crit: 212
Hit: 99
mp5: 11
Pen: 392
Haste: 0
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Originally Posted by Grondarg
Tiberium by realistic restraints do you mean your exluding 2.4 gear? I ask because there are some really nice peices i think would go good in a Surv set. Espcially with 3 extra peices of T6 to help get the 4 peice easier.
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Originally Posted by Zurgat
Could you add a total calculation how much agility, hit rating, armor penetration your gear setup provides?
And, could you make a setup for 2.4 as well? This would make it easier to analyze your list, and give constructive feedback. Instead of yellow gems, you could use [Glinting Pyrestone] to provide more hit rating. [Dagger of Bad Mojo] is said to be a better choice than the halberd, the armor penetration will greatly improve your personal dps, gives only slightly less, and will enable you to use two mana oils instead of a single one. |
Health: 10,162
Armor: 7557
Mana: 7228
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 34.48%
Hit vs. Level 73: 99.96% (94 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 43.16%
Hunter DPS: 1028.97
Pet DPS: 192.37
Total DPS: 1221.34
EW Uptime: 98.11%
Average EW proc: 244.83 AP
Effective RAP: 3307
From gear with enchants and race:
Armor: 5561
Strength: 84
Agility: 998
Stamina: 585
Intellect: 275
Spirit: 100
AP: 1144
Crit: 186
Hit: 94
mp5: 8
Pen: 392
Haste: 0
I'm well aware what [Glinting Pyrestone] can do, however as you can see its not needed. As for the 2 X [Dagger of Bad Mojo] they provide the best DPS for sure but they give Zero Hit which is a problem at this gear level.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Tiberium-
If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it- this has been my ideal gear setup, and if I can improve on it I'd like to. |
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Yes, [Shadowmaster's Boots] is a good option too. Over my mail piece choice, it improves my personal DPS by 8.3 with only a loss of 0.12 AP on EW proc. If just considering ideal DPS, it is definitely a great option.
However, I didn't list it in my preferred set since it would make it my 3rd leather piece, and I prefer to have 2 or less pieces of leather since too much leather reduces my mana pool and my AoV regen (when being used) too much that I would probably have mana problems despite BoW, mana oil (only a single mana oil with the 2-hander), major mageblood potion, and mana pots if I do not have a shaman in my group to drop mana spring totem (never get SP since we only have 1 and we don't have a raiding ret pally). More than 2 pieces of leather is not really viable for me. |
So all in all we have 4 leather pieces up for grabs, these are [Cursed Vision of Sargeras], [Don Alejandro's Money Belt], [Shadowmaster's Boots] and [Insidious Bands]. All 4 provide DPS upgrades over the max Agi items posted above. The really sad thing with this set up is we drop possibly the single most awsome survival piece in the game, [Bow-stitched Leggings] in favour of the very ordinary [Gronnstalker's Leggings]
If its personal DPS that you want then simply substitute all 4 leather pieces for max DPS, the only exceptions are the awsome wrists [Insidious Bands], which I somehow missed and the very interesting haste pieces [Cloak of Fiends], [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] which also increase personal DPS hugely (according to Cheeky's).
So to conclude this is the 1/2 way house setup considered to be "best"
Weapon
[Halberd of Desolation]for the hit, although 2 X [Dagger of Bad Mojo] are a substantial DPS upgrade
[Formula: Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]
Helmet:
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
Neck:
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Back:
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Elixir of Greater Agility]
Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
Wrists:
[Insidious Bands]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Enchant Bracer - Stats]
Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Belt:
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Legs:
[Gronnstalker's Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Feet:
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Formula: Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
Rings:
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
Trinkets:
[Berserker's Call]
[Madness of the Betrayer] Needed for the hit
Ranged Weapon:
[Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
Stats for this set up are:-
Health: 11086
Armor: 6461
Mana: 6058
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 32.36%
Hit vs. Level 73: 100% (99 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 42.88%
Hunter DPS: 1095.02
Pet DPS: 190.36
Total DPS: 1285.39
EW Uptime: 97.66%
Average EW proc: 236.33 AP
Effective RAP: 3405
From gear with enchants and race:
Armor: 4570
Strength: 84
Agility: 945
Stamina: 669
Intellect: 197
Spirit: 100
AP: 1288
Crit: 212
Hit: 99
mp5: 11
Pen: 392
Haste: 0
Last edited by Tiberium : 03/17/08 at 9:05 PM.
How useful is Armor Pen? Would 2x [Blade of Infamy] be better than 2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo]. Overall it'd be 14 more Agi, and 32 more AP at the loss of 280 Armor Pen.
uhhh
Tiberium, Whitefyst and somerandomidiot all have good points about the most optimal gear including all these rogue-leather pieces.
But seriously... if you're like most of us aren't aren't lucky to have 30-40+ kills of every boss in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, and/or have thousands of gold to spend chain-chugging multiple stacks of [Fel Mana Potion] on every raid-night, spend your hard-earned DKP on the items Blizzard actually made for us :
[Boneweave Girdle]
[Quickstrider Moccasins] or [Softstep Boots of Tracking]
[Bracers of the Pathfinder] or [Wraps of Precise Flight]
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]
Particularly the last one... come on guys, the 4-piece T6 bonus will outweigh whatever increased DPS you'd be gaining by wearing the leather helm.
They will all serve you just as well, losing a miniscule-amount of DPS from the leather gear, and hey, you might actually have enough mana to chug [Haste Potion] instead.
Cheers...
-End.
But seriously... if you're like most of us aren't aren't lucky to have 30-40+ kills of every boss in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, and/or have thousands of gold to spend chain-chugging multiple stacks of [Fel Mana Potion] on every raid-night, spend your hard-earned DKP on the items Blizzard actually made for us :
[Boneweave Girdle]
[Quickstrider Moccasins] or [Softstep Boots of Tracking]
[Bracers of the Pathfinder] or [Wraps of Precise Flight]
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]
Particularly the last one... come on guys, the 4-piece T6 bonus will outweigh whatever increased DPS you'd be gaining by wearing the leather helm.
They will all serve you just as well, losing a miniscule-amount of DPS from the leather gear, and hey, you might actually have enough mana to chug [Haste Potion] instead.
Cheers...
-End.
Raidbuffed and on a raid debuffed target, the armor pen on the daggers is significantly better than the 14 agi and 32 ap from Infamy.
Isn't the purpose of high end PvE gear to maximize dps? If so, then why should I pass on leather and settle for "almost as good"? I even picked up the guild first drop of CVoS, which pissed the rogues off but they got over it quickly.
For SV, both Pathfinder and Precise Flight are meh. The T6 helm is the weakest of all the pieces and by replacing it with CVoS, you'll likely have a helm that will last even throughout the entirety of Sunwell, especially considering Felmyst drops some very, very nice legs. I wear best in slot (excepting that damned chest ring that never drops), which means I have 4 pieces of leather and a buffed mana pool of about 7k. Our other hunters have buffed mana pools of about 9k, but with a ret paladin, chaining el cheapo volatile mana pots is sufficient to keep me going indefinitely. Council, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor, and perhaps Illidan, are the only fights where I often have to upgrade to super manas.
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But seriously... if you're like most of us aren't aren't lucky to have 30-40+ kills of every boss in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, and/or have thousands of gold to spend chain-chugging multiple stacks of [Fel Mana Potion] on every raid-night, spend your hard-earned DKP on the items Blizzard actually made for us : [Boneweave Girdle] [Item 'quickstrider moccassins' not found!] or [Softstep Boots of Tracking] [Bracers of the Pathfinder] or [Wraps of Precise Flight] [Gronnstalker's Helmet] Particularly the last one... come on guys, the 4-piece T6 bonus will outweigh whatever increased DPS you'd be gaining by wearing the leather helm. They will all serve you just as well, losing a miniscule-amount of DPS from the leather gear, and hey, you might actually have enough mana to chug [Haste Potion] instead. |
For SV, both Pathfinder and Precise Flight are meh. The T6 helm is the weakest of all the pieces and by replacing it with CVoS, you'll likely have a helm that will last even throughout the entirety of Sunwell, especially considering Felmyst drops some very, very nice legs. I wear best in slot (excepting that damned chest ring that never drops), which means I have 4 pieces of leather and a buffed mana pool of about 7k. Our other hunters have buffed mana pools of about 9k, but with a ret paladin, chaining el cheapo volatile mana pots is sufficient to keep me going indefinitely. Council, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor, and perhaps Illidan, are the only fights where I often have to upgrade to super manas.
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Originally Posted by RDarkfire
Tiberium, Whitefyst and somerandomidiot all have good points about the most optimal gear including all these rogue-leather pieces.
But seriously... if you're like most of us aren't aren't lucky to have 30-40+ kills of every boss in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, and/or have thousands of gold to spend chain-chugging multiple stacks of [Fel Mana Potion] on every raid-night, spend your hard-earned DKP on the items Blizzard actually made for us : [Boneweave Girdle] [Quickstrider Moccasins] or [Softstep Boots of Tracking] [Bracers of the Pathfinder] or [Wraps of Precise Flight] [Gronnstalker's Helmet] Particularly the last one... come on guys, the 4-piece T6 bonus will outweigh whatever increased DPS you'd be gaining by wearing the leather helm. They will all serve you just as well, losing a miniscule-amount of DPS from the leather gear, and hey, you might actually have enough mana to chug [Haste Potion] instead. Cheers... -End. |
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Originally Posted by RDarkfire
Tiberium, Whitefyst and somerandomidiot all have good points about the most optimal gear including all these rogue-leather pieces.
... Cheers... -End. |
Obviously, when you've been killing Illidan since last year you can clearly pick and choose gear a lot better. These generally reflect "ideal" lists, and someone like me who only has a half dozen Illidan kills or so has to make obvious sacrifices. 2.4 will certainly be nice in the sense that all the extra T6 pieces kick a whole lot ot ass.
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Originally Posted by Threepi
How useful is Armor Pen? Would 2x [Blade of Infamy] be better than 2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo]. Overall it'd be 14 more Agi, and 32 more AP at the loss of 280 Armor Pen.
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If you can hit the HR cap with the Bad Mojo daggers, they are the best in slot, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have Madness + TT.
As far as breaking 4 piece T6 current game, that's just idiotic in a min/max capacity, regardless of spec.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by CSM-EH
If you can hit the HR cap with the Bad Mojo daggers, they are the best in slot, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have Madness + TT.
As far as breaking 4 piece T6 current game, that's just idiotic in a min/max capacity, regardless of spec. |
Basically, CVS is better than T6 Helm and Bow Stitched are better than T6 Legs.
However, 4/5 T6 is better than everything else any other single piece would grant you. So you need to choose which of the two slots would be better to sacrifice tier 6 for your particular situation, not depending on what theorycraft says. If you already have 2xBad Mojo, for instance, then you stick with tier 6 legs and get CVS. If you have Desolation, stick with tier 6 helm and Bow Stitched.
Last edited by Enova : 03/17/08 at 1:33 PM.
Just wondering, lets assume for a sec that [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is not an option for me (it isn't, way too many ahead of me in line). So, as far as the big 5 slots go, just all Gronnstalkers? Or swap out one of them for a mail DPS piece like [Forest Prowler's Helm], [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator], or [Bow-stitched Leggings]?
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Originally Posted by Threepi
Just wondering, lets assume for a sec that [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is not an option for me (it isn't, way too many ahead of me in line). So, as far as the big 5 slots go, just all Gronnstalkers? Or swap out one of them for a mail DPS piece like [Forest Prowler's Helm], [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator], or [Bow-stitched Leggings]?
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Would you break the slot bonus for CVS with a red gem if you could? Or is the 6 stam special for some reason?
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Whitefyst I agree with most of the info you post generally however this is one that I simply can't agree on. Given your criteria of a max limit of 2 leather pieces justifying you choosing [Star-Strider Boots] I would argue that [Cobra-Lash Boots] are a superior non leather choice. Not only are the int and stamina stas superior, the 3 agi bonus actually supports the meta as a 3rd bonus.
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Concerning [Star-Strider Boots] or [Cobra-Lash Boots], I found that choosing between the 2 was a very close call and could have gone either way, but here is what it came down to for me. With assuming that my meta socket requirements are already met with other pieces, I would be putting agi gems into both. With that done, the two boots have identical agility and AP and provide the exact same amount of DPS and EW benefits. Thus, the decision of which is better falls onto the comparison of the secondary stats. [Cobra-Lash Boots] has 12 more stamina and 7 more intellect, which equates for my character to +132 health, +105 mana, and slightly better AoV. On the other hand, [Star-Strider Boots] has 4 mp5.
Comparing the two, I can see a lot of people legitimately choosing [Cobra-Lash Boots] (CLB), and I have no problem with that. However, for my character and situation, I preferred [Star-Strider Boots] (SSB). I already have plenty of health raid buffed so that the +132 health from CLB, although nice, is not a deciding factor. The slightly better AoV from CLB is also nice, but considering that I try to avoid/limit using AoV as much as possible, that benefit is not a huge deciding factor either. What was the deciding factor for me was the mana. The +105 mana from CLB is overcome by the 4 mp5 of SSB after 2 min and 12 s. Now I realize that this is not a huge benefit, but I felt that it was the most important for my current character and guild situation. My guild is still progressing, and we currently are only 3/5 MH and 3/9 BT. Thus, all of our boss fights still tend to be on the longer side of the durations. We do not experience any 3 min boss fights like a lot of you do that are farming MH/BT. Hence, the extra mana late in the fight does help some.
Now from a practical standpoint, SSB was the better option for me too since I knew that we would be killing Solarian many times and have several opportunities for SSB at a cheap price but would only be killing Vashj a few times with little opportunity for CLB and with people fighting over them at a high price. When SSB dropped for my guild for the first time (which was way before we even made out first attempts at Vashj), I bid just over min DKP for them (since I knew I would have other chances) and won them since no one else bid. When I asked other possible bidders why they didn't bid, they all stated that they were waiting for CLB. That was good for me, but I tried to explain to them how equivalent the two boots were from a DPS standpoint and how they could get SSB for cheap for a big upgrade over their current boots. The next time they dropped. I persuaded one of our other hunters to bid min on them, and he won them. The third time they dropped, I was able to persuade our enchancement shammy to get them for min, which he did. The 4th time they dropped, the third hunter in our guild passed on them waiting for CBL, so they got sharded. Our guild never saw CBL drop in the 5 times we killed Vashj, so that third hunter of ours is doing MH/BT with very inferior boots when he could have had SSB for min DKP with the exact same DPS benefits as CBL. Plus, with getting them for min, he could still have bid on CLB to replace them if he wanted to later if they dropped.
Now concerning my version of the list, that was only my ideal wish list. With where my guild is at, I by no means have most of that gear. In fact, I have only 2 of the pieces, and am pretty certain at least one of the pieces (the cloak) I will never get since my guild does not plan to ever kill Kael again, especially considering that after 2.4 we will not have to get recruits attunned for MH/BT. I also realize that I probably will not get several of the MH/BT pieces and that I will have to make due with the best gear that I am actually able to acquire. The list was my wish list, but I also know my backup choices for each slot too for until I get my wishes and can use them or for if I do not get my wishes. So yes, I feel the pain of those out there that will not be able to get all their "ideal" pieces since I am one of you. A person can dream though ....
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Would you break the slot bonus for CVS with a red gem if you could? Or is the 6 stam special for some reason?
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1) to meet meta gem socket requirements
2) when meeting the socket bonus has better benefit over breaking it with a red agi gem (this is seldom the case though)
What often happens is that your pieces with the best socket bonuses (+ agility) that could meet the 2) exception are already socketed to get the bonuses per meeting the 1) exception.
As such, in general, a survival hunter should never be trying to save a +6 stamina socket bonus, unless there is no other better option. However, there usually are many better options, such as those with +agi, +AP, +crit, +hit, etc. +sta socket bonus are usually the first to be broken.
If you look at Tiberium's list, he did 2 greens in his chest piece to meet the 2 yellow and 2 green gem requirements and to also get the +4 agi bonus. Using 2 green gems is one good option for gemming that gear, with other good options existing. Sometimes it is better to use 2 orange ([Glinting Pyrestone]) and 2 purple ([Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]) gems instead depending on the available sockets and socket bonuses. These 4 gems have +20 agi, +10 hit, and +14 sta compared to the +20 agi, +10 crit, and +14 sta of the 2 greens and 2 reds. The difference here is +10 hit versus +10 crit. Which is better depends on whether you need the +10 hit to make cap and the socket bonuses that go along with those gems placements. For instance, for Tiberium's list, the two yellow sockets in the chest piece could have been 2 [Glinting Pyrestone] to meet the yellow gem requirements and 2 [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]. However, with his gear list, there really is not a good place to put 2 blue gems since there is only one available blue socket, which is unfortunately paired with another yellow socket. Plus, he already had is hit cap, so the +10 crit is better than the +10 hit and using 2 greens was the better option.
However, on my list with its little different gear, the 2 orange and purple gems work out better than the 2 greens since there are available blue and yellow sockets with good bonuses and since the hit was needed. In fact, there are several combinations of the orange and purple gem locations that is better than the 2 greens.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Would you break the slot bonus for CVS with a red gem if you could? Or is the 6 stam special for some reason?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
All this gear talk has gotten me thinking, and so I'll pose the question to you guys. Assuming all pre-Sunwell and 2.4 gear available in the game, what is the very best survival gearset possible? Assume 10 physical dps members each gaining 1 dps per 8 Attack Power your Expose Weakness gives them.
So in other words, we want the max of
(Personal DPS) + (Expose Weakness DPS)
where Expose Weakness DPS = ((Agility / 4) / 4) * 10 = (Agility / 1.6)
Use Cheeky's most current spreadsheet version, with a 0/20/41 spec (I'm sure you all know how to build that) and a 1:1.X Rotation with both multi and arcane shot. Ignore time to OOM.
Race:
Go with Night Elf here, it's a good standard race and allows us to ignore the effects of racials, as no Night Elf racials affect raid DPS.
Gear:
Assume every piece of gear is available in the game pre2.4, and you have an infinite supply of all the epic gems you could want, and any enchant you could want. I'm pretty sure you'll want to use 4piece T6 and mostly BT/Hyjal gear, but if something else gives more DPS, run with it. If you end up wearing all cloth, that's entirely fine- you're not tanking, you're DPSing. One final requirement- you must have over 8.5k health. Najentus makes that a hard minimum, but somehow I doubt it's going to be a problem.
Buffs:
Assume a group of you, a feral druid, a shaman (not necessarily enhancement), and 2 other members who will not affect you. This is on average what I get, and I feel it's pretty normal for BT/Hyjal guilds. Also assume Agility food (a Warp Burger is fine) and whichever flask/elixir combination gives you the most DPS. I think this will be Major Agility, but I'm not 100% sure. Also assume all primary raid buffs, such as Kings, Might, MotW, etc are present and talented if possible.
Debuffs:
Assume Improved Hunters Mark, Curse of Shadows with 3/3 Malediction, 5/5 Sunder Armor, Curse of Recklessness, and Faerie Fire (not improved, I don't think most guilds run with a moonkins).
The goal of this is to determine the optimum gear setup for your average survival hunter in a T6 guild. I know my solutions aren't the best, and I think a solid conversation on this could be very beneficial.
Spreadsheet Thread: Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
So in other words, we want the max of
(Personal DPS) + (Expose Weakness DPS)
where Expose Weakness DPS = ((Agility / 4) / 4) * 10 = (Agility / 1.6)
Use Cheeky's most current spreadsheet version, with a 0/20/41 spec (I'm sure you all know how to build that) and a 1:1.X Rotation with both multi and arcane shot. Ignore time to OOM.
Race:
Go with Night Elf here, it's a good standard race and allows us to ignore the effects of racials, as no Night Elf racials affect raid DPS.
Gear:
Assume every piece of gear is available in the game pre2.4, and you have an infinite supply of all the epic gems you could want, and any enchant you could want. I'm pretty sure you'll want to use 4piece T6 and mostly BT/Hyjal gear, but if something else gives more DPS, run with it. If you end up wearing all cloth, that's entirely fine- you're not tanking, you're DPSing. One final requirement- you must have over 8.5k health. Najentus makes that a hard minimum, but somehow I doubt it's going to be a problem.
Buffs:
Assume a group of you, a feral druid, a shaman (not necessarily enhancement), and 2 other members who will not affect you. This is on average what I get, and I feel it's pretty normal for BT/Hyjal guilds. Also assume Agility food (a Warp Burger is fine) and whichever flask/elixir combination gives you the most DPS. I think this will be Major Agility, but I'm not 100% sure. Also assume all primary raid buffs, such as Kings, Might, MotW, etc are present and talented if possible.
Debuffs:
Assume Improved Hunters Mark, Curse of Shadows with 3/3 Malediction, 5/5 Sunder Armor, Curse of Recklessness, and Faerie Fire (not improved, I don't think most guilds run with a moonkins).
The goal of this is to determine the optimum gear setup for your average survival hunter in a T6 guild. I know my solutions aren't the best, and I think a solid conversation on this could be very beneficial.
Spreadsheet Thread: Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
Last edited by SomeRandomIdiot : 03/17/08 at 5:02 PM.
Don't nelfs....get extra agility. And most gear optimization is earlier in the thread. Using a setup similar to yours only with orc instead of nelf.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Don't nelfs....get extra agility. And most gear optimization is earlier in the thread. Using a setup similar to yours only with orc instead of nelf.
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Originally Posted by Enova
The night elf racial is 1% extra dodge. You might get a single figure difference between the base agility scores of a level 70 orc and night elf hunter, but nothing significant.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I was kinda bored tonight so tought lets make a list with gear I'd want for the 2.4 patch;
this is what seems to me (so far) one of the best setups:
[Halberd of Desolation]
[Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
[Mantle of the Golden Forest]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gronnstalker's Bracers]
[Enchant Gloves - Assault]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gronnstalker's Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Starstalker Legguards]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Gronnstalker's Boots]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Angelista's Revenge]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Berserker's Call]
[Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
Your only missing out on the 4 agility set bonus from the Tier 6 chest, gaining all others.
(Left out the legendary bow, wich is in all cases an upgrade.)
With this you'd end up with:
(As Night Elf)
Agility: 989
Intelect: 227
RAP: 1424
Hit rating: 96
Crit rating: 161
Mp5: 8
Wich would make:
Total, Effective RAP - 2868
Total, Base Crit Rating - 41,69%
Total, Hit Chance (L73) - 100,00%
and last but not least:
Agility - 989
Average +AP on mob from EW 240,79
I'd love to hear if there's any items that's worth replacing in this list altough keep an eye open for "stats balance" (not to much leaning to full agi nor going all out for personal dps.)
this is what seems to me (so far) one of the best setups:
[Halberd of Desolation]
[Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
[Mantle of the Golden Forest]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gronnstalker's Bracers]
[Enchant Gloves - Assault]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gronnstalker's Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Starstalker Legguards]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Gronnstalker's Boots]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Angelista's Revenge]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Berserker's Call]
[Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
Your only missing out on the 4 agility set bonus from the Tier 6 chest, gaining all others.
(Left out the legendary bow, wich is in all cases an upgrade.)
With this you'd end up with:
(As Night Elf)
Agility: 989
Intelect: 227
RAP: 1424
Hit rating: 96
Crit rating: 161
Mp5: 8
Wich would make:
Total, Effective RAP - 2868
Total, Base Crit Rating - 41,69%
Total, Hit Chance (L73) - 100,00%
and last but not least:
Agility - 989
Average +AP on mob from EW 240,79
I'd love to hear if there's any items that's worth replacing in this list altough keep an eye open for "stats balance" (not to much leaning to full agi nor going all out for personal dps.)
Last edited by Justwait : 03/17/08 at 9:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
[...]So in other words, we want the max of
(Personal DPS) + (Expose Weakness DPS) where Expose Weakness DPS = ((Agility / 4) / 4) * 10 = (Agility / 1.6) [...] |
Night Elf with all buffs and mob debuffs talented (except Faerie Fire) but True Shot Aura and Battle Shout for pet (Windserpent) vs 7700 armor lvl 73 boss
Gear:
-Halberd of Desolation, 35 agi
-T6 helm, Glyph of Ferocity, gems : 10 agi + R.E.D.
-Necklace of the Deep, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-T6 Spaulders, Greater Inscription of the Blade (Scryers), gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Thalassian Wildercloak, 12 agi
-T6 Chest, 6 all stats, gems : 10 agi + 7 stam / 5 crit + 7 stam / 5 crit
-Insidious Bands, 24 AP, gem : 10 agi
-T6 Gloves, 15 agi, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Don Alejandro's Money Belt, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Bow-stitched Leggings, 50 AP + 12 crit, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi + 10 agi
-Shadowmaster's Boots, 12 agi, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Signet of Primal Wrath + Band of the Eternal Champion, both with
-Madness of the Betrayer + Tsunami Talisman
-Bristleblitz Striker, 28 crit
-Quiver 15% + Timeless Arrow
Agility 1304,22
Tooltip RAP 3090
Hit Rating 91 (Chance to hit vs lvl 73 : 99,77%)
Hunter DPS : 1728,18
Pet DPS : 351,32
EW DPS = agi / 1.6 = 812,76
Total DPS = 2893,61
JustWait, why the Halberd and not 2 x Daggers like Mojo or Infamy?
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Originally Posted by Chanii
JustWait, why the Halberd and not 2 x Daggers like Mojo or Infamy?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Some random ramblings from me here. Mainly to break up this barrage of item lists and 'best macro' posts.
For me this is always the [Ring of Lethality]. Every time I eliminate it from my setup I get a new item and back it comes.
The major pull for Survival for me these days is the satisfaction gained from playing the item mini game.
What is somewhat annoying is the lack of good cloaks. From recently levelling a new alt, you get nothing but cloaks as quest rewards and drops.
When it comes to the endgame situation, however, you have:
[Drape of the Dark Reavers]
[Blood Knight War Cloak]
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
The Drape is generally more beneficial to rogues at that level of itemisation. AP is not so hot either.
Blood Knight's is badge loot and usually what most people have. Nice item for its level.
Kael's cape is a total crap shoot. If you got it in the short time you farmed Kael you were very lucky.
It's probably too late now but a decent Survival cape in 2.4 would have been very welcome.
On the subject of weapons. If you get your hit rating to a reasonable level the [Dagger of Bad Mojo] combo is a visible boost in personal dps.
It's not a tiny increase at all. Your critical strikes really benefit from the raw damage boost. Which makes me reconsider the Coif of the Ugly Stalker for sure.
Even if you have the halberd it's well worth tagging along to ZA with the alts or on speed runs.
As for what 2.4 brings. I've not been blown away by any of the loot that's been seen but am certainly looking forward to some gear juggling.
| Yes, I fully realize that the value of a piece of gear can change with what other gear you are wearing due to synergies and adding/removing of certain attributes. |
The major pull for Survival for me these days is the satisfaction gained from playing the item mini game.
What is somewhat annoying is the lack of good cloaks. From recently levelling a new alt, you get nothing but cloaks as quest rewards and drops.
When it comes to the endgame situation, however, you have:
[Drape of the Dark Reavers]
[Blood Knight War Cloak]
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
The Drape is generally more beneficial to rogues at that level of itemisation. AP is not so hot either.
Blood Knight's is badge loot and usually what most people have. Nice item for its level.
Kael's cape is a total crap shoot. If you got it in the short time you farmed Kael you were very lucky.
It's probably too late now but a decent Survival cape in 2.4 would have been very welcome.
On the subject of weapons. If you get your hit rating to a reasonable level the [Dagger of Bad Mojo] combo is a visible boost in personal dps.
It's not a tiny increase at all. Your critical strikes really benefit from the raw damage boost. Which makes me reconsider the Coif of the Ugly Stalker for sure.
Even if you have the halberd it's well worth tagging along to ZA with the alts or on speed runs.
As for what 2.4 brings. I've not been blown away by any of the loot that's been seen but am certainly looking forward to some gear juggling.
Last edited by Kabuto : 03/18/08 at 8:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by Enova
Because he'd be at 60ish hit rating, otherwise.
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That is correct, and those 30 hit are worth a lot more then the ap/agi/apen
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
All this gear talk has gotten me thinking, and so I'll pose the question to you guys. Assuming all pre-Sunwell and 2.4 gear available in the game, what is the very best survival gearset possible? Assume 10 physical dps members each gaining 1 dps per 8 Attack Power your Expose Weakness gives them.
So in other words, we want the max of (Personal DPS) + (Expose Weakness DPS) where Expose Weakness DPS = ((Agility / 4) / 4) * 10 = (Agility / 1.6) |
Total DPS: 2883.68
Hunter DPS: 1950.69
Pet DPS: 231.74
EW DPS: 1122 Agility / 1.6 = 701.25
Avg EW on Mob: 279.06
Rotation: 1:1.5
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5)
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Wrap Burger, Elixir of Agi,
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR
Gear:
weapon
[Shiv of Exsanguination] x2
head
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
neck
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]
shoulders
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Wicked Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
back
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
chest
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
[Stone of Blades]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
wrist
[Gronnstalker's Bracers]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
hands
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x2
waist
[Gronnstalker's Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
leggs
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x3
feet
[Gronnstalker's Boots]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
rings
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Angelista's Revenge]
trinkets
[Berserker's Call]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
bow
The Legendary!
Basically the choice comes down to what T6 you will wear to complete the 4piece set bonus (assuming you get bracers, boots, and belt) The choice becomes: T6 gloves and [Mantle of the Golden Forest] or T6 shoulders and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] My dps came out higher wearing the T6 shoulders and using the leather gloves.
As you can see most of the items are leather!
111 Hit Rating but I couldn't find any space to drop any for higher dps.
Last edited by Vasilii : 03/18/08 at 11:39 AM.
Vasilii-
It's looking like Clutch of Demise off Brutallus (25 AGI 33 STAM 30 HASTE 64 AP) is an upgrade to the Kael neck. I think the haste helps tighten the rotation a bit, because it's giving me 10 dps.
I'm actually excited about what you've found. I was worried that I wouldn't be replacing much come Sunwell, but that's definitely going to happen. I'm gonna keep my Cursed Vision, T6 Shoulders, Thalassian Wildercloak, and Signet of Primal Wrath (still don't have that one... need to get off my lazy butt and do more ZA).
In any case, if anyone finds anything better I'd love to see it- it'll definitely help myself and others know what we should pick up when Sunwell goes live.
It's looking like Clutch of Demise off Brutallus (25 AGI 33 STAM 30 HASTE 64 AP) is an upgrade to the Kael neck. I think the haste helps tighten the rotation a bit, because it's giving me 10 dps.
I'm actually excited about what you've found. I was worried that I wouldn't be replacing much come Sunwell, but that's definitely going to happen. I'm gonna keep my Cursed Vision, T6 Shoulders, Thalassian Wildercloak, and Signet of Primal Wrath (still don't have that one... need to get off my lazy butt and do more ZA).
In any case, if anyone finds anything better I'd love to see it- it'll definitely help myself and others know what we should pick up when Sunwell goes live.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
head
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] [Delicate Crimson Spinel] chest [Bladed Chaos Tunic] [Stone of Blades] [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst] [Delicate Crimson Spinel] leggs [Leggings of the Immortal Night] [Delicate Crimson Spinel] x3 rings [Signet of Primal Wrath] [Angelista's Revenge] trinkets [Berserker's Call] [Madness of the Betrayer] 111 Hit Rating but I couldn't find any space to drop any for higher dps. |
1) For the head, consider [Duplicitous Guise]. Yes, its more leather, but it appears to be a significant upgrade over Cursed Vision with about 18 more DPS and 0.7 more EW AP when comparing both against my current helm.
2) For the chest, that is an awesome piece, but there is actually a better mail piece, at least if you are a leatherworker. The crafted [Embrace of the Phoenix]. From my quick analysis, it is about 9 more DPS and 3 more AP on EW proc along with more mana, armor, and dodge.
3) For the legs, those leather ones are very nice, but I believe I would prefer the [Starstalker Legguards]. Since you have 16 extra HR, the loss of 12 HR with the switch is not a problem. The mail legs are about a 5 DPS loss, but you gain about 3 on EW AP, which can make up for the personal DPS loss. Plus, you get more health, mana, dodge, and armor with the mail piece.
4) For the rings, I would choose [Band of the Eternal Champion] and the crafted [Hard Khorium Band]. The [Band of the Eternal Champion] appears slightly better than the two rings you chose, and [Hard Khorium Band] is by far the best ring for a Survival hunter. Unlike the crafted neck, it does not appear that you need to be a JC to wear the ring.
5) For the trinkets, I believe that [Item 'blackened naaru sliver' not found!] works out better than the ZA trinket.
EDIT: Concerning the trinket, it is possible that it doesn't exist and that it was a fake. However, it is in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here is a link showing it:
Sunwell Loots - Not so fake.
It provides 54 haste. It has a proc on hit chance to enter a Battle Trance during which melee or range attacks will grant 44 AP stacking up to 10 times and expiring after 20s.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/18/08 at 3:14 PM. Reason: More info in trinket
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
5) For the trinkets, I believe that [Item 'blackened naruu sliver' not found!] works out better than the ZA trinket. |
There seems to be a fine line when adding +Haste items to Survival builds. In many cases, by taking +Haste, you are giving up other stats - such as agility, armor pen, or whatever else. And there seems to be a needed amount to make the +Haste worth it. Adding a couple of +Haste pieces has the potential to throw off your shot rotation completly, to the point where a macro might not work anymore due to clipping. You see this a lot with items like DST or talents like iAotH or Rapid Fire, where you essentially have to change rotations to compensate for the added +Haste.
I see the goal of getting +Haste to the point of shooting you bow as fast as a BM Hunter and moving from a 1:1.5 rotation to a 1:1 or 2:3 rotation...but what is that number exactly...and in the end is it worth it compared to the other possibilities out there? If it has +Haste on it, it doesnt have +Armor Pen (usually)...so what is better? I have heard good things about both, but it seems like +Hast takes a lot more +Haste items to become truly beneficial, where as +Armor Pen does not.
I know with Sunwell, there are several new +Haste items...so I guess my question comes down to...is it worth it? And if it is worth it, at what point should you start wearing +Haste over other gear without a loss of DPS due to a messy shot rotation?
I see the goal of getting +Haste to the point of shooting you bow as fast as a BM Hunter and moving from a 1:1.5 rotation to a 1:1 or 2:3 rotation...but what is that number exactly...and in the end is it worth it compared to the other possibilities out there? If it has +Haste on it, it doesnt have +Armor Pen (usually)...so what is better? I have heard good things about both, but it seems like +Hast takes a lot more +Haste items to become truly beneficial, where as +Armor Pen does not.
I know with Sunwell, there are several new +Haste items...so I guess my question comes down to...is it worth it? And if it is worth it, at what point should you start wearing +Haste over other gear without a loss of DPS due to a messy shot rotation?
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Good stuff, but here are some suggestions for possible improvement (don't have the time to fully figure it out ATM though):
1) For the head, consider [Duplicitous Guise]. Yes, its more leather, but it appears to be a significant upgrade over Cursed Vision with about 18 more DPS and 0.7 more EW AP when comparing both against my current helm. 2) For the chest, that is an awesome piece, but there is actually a better mail piece, at least if you are a leatherworker. The crafted [Embrace of the Phoenix]. From my quick analysis, it is about 9 more DPS and 3 more AP on EW proc along with more mana, armor, and dodge. 3) For the legs, those leather ones are very nice, but I believe I would prefer the [Starstalker Legguards]. Since you have 16 extra HR, the loss of 12 HR with the switch is not a problem. The mail legs are about a 5 DPS loss, but you gain about 3 on EW AP, which can make up for the personal DPS loss. Plus, you get more health, mana, dodge, and armor with the mail piece. 4) For the rings, I would choose [Band of the Eternal Champion] and the crafted [Hard Khorium Band]. The [Band of the Eternal Champion] appears slightly better than the two rings you chose, and [Hard Khorium Band] is by far the best ring for a Survival hunter. Unlike the crafted neck, it does not appear that you need to be a JC to wear the ring. 5) For the trinkets, I believe that [Item 'blackened naruu sliver' not found!] works out better than the ZA trinket. |
1) My DPS dropped by 10 using duplicitous gaze over Cursed Vision.
2) Not sure how you came to this conclusion, using the embrace of the phoenix vs. bladed chaos drops my dps by over 50!
3) I also had the starstalker legs drop my dps by almost 21 vs. leggings of the immortal night. I will definitely be using the leather here
4) Hard Khorium Band again has haste rating, it dropped by dps by 10 vs. the ZA signet. I have the signet and the new badges ring as by far the best way to go for survival. Band of eternal champion is not nearly as good as either the signet or the badges ring.
5) I don't see how you could use the Naruu trinket, it dropped my dps by almost 40.
I'm trying to fool around with a passive haste gear build using 5/20/36 but can't find anything that matches unhasted 1:1.5
Perhaps you were using 1:1.5 Imp. Arcane? I could see haste being beneficial with that setup.
If you are modeling the 1:1.5 with multi/arcane you have to hand type it in, make sure in your setting and results tab it says 1:1.5 and not 1:1.3. The Spreadsheet attempts to avoid clipping so if you choose the standard 1:1.5 it really downgrades it to a 1:1.3 to avoid clipping but the clipping will increase your dps.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
There seems to be a fine line when adding +Haste items to Survival builds. In many cases, by taking +Haste, you are giving up other stats - such as agility, armor pen, or whatever else. And there seems to be a needed amount to make the +Haste worth it. Adding a couple of +Haste pieces has the potential to throw off your shot rotation completly, to the point where a macro might not work anymore due to clipping. You see this a lot with items like DST or talents like iAotH or Rapid Fire, where you essentially have to change rotations to compensate for the added +Haste.
I see the goal of getting +Haste to the point of shooting you bow as fast as a BM Hunter and moving from a 1:1.5 rotation to a 1:1 or 2:3 rotation...but what is that number exactly...and in the end is it worth it compared to the other possibilities out there? If it has +Haste on it, it doesnt have +Armor Pen (usually)...so what is better? I have heard good things about both, but it seems like +Hast takes a lot more +Haste items to become truly beneficial, where as +Armor Pen does not. I know with Sunwell, there are several new +Haste items...so I guess my question comes down to...is it worth it? And if it is worth it, at what point should you start wearing +Haste over other gear without a loss of DPS due to a messy shot rotation? |
Using a 3:2 with my passive haste gear is much better, but still almost 100 dps below unhasted 1:1.5
I'm using steady spam when DST or IAotH procs.
Please experiment yourselfs and see what happens.
Posted this a month or so back, I think it should help things.
Interestingly... I was wondering this exact same thing as I sat here at work. (yes, I should be working...) In order to hit 20% haste (equivalent of Serpent's Swiftness) you'd need 314 Haste Rating.
I modeled it out in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here's what I found: it's not worth it. Using the new gear, I modeled myself out to a raid buffed total of 1243 AGI, 784 STAM, 292 INT, 1474 +AP, 265 +CRIT, 99 +HIT, 364 PEN, and 295 HASTE. I had to add an additional 54 haste rating to my weapon and not use a trinket because Cheeky doesn't support adding trinkets, and I was unable to add in the T6 set bonus using the new pieces of T6, but even with those stats a 1:1 rotation shows a total DPS of 1235, compared to my current gear and shot rotation giving a DPS of 1533.
Things I added:
Shivering Felspine (52agi, Y socket, 53 haste, 120AP) - Polearm
Clutch of Demise (25agi, 33stam, 30 haste, 64AP) - Neck
Duplicitous Guise (43agi, 57stam, RM socket, 30 hit, 34 haste, 126AP) - Helm
Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm (41agi, 33stam, RB socket, 30 haste, 82AP) - Gloves
Embrace of the Phoenix (44agi, 43stam, 30int, RRR socket, 44haste, 104 AP) - Chest
Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP) - Bracers
Gronnstalker's Belt (29agi, 36stam, 17int, R socket, 25crit, 86AP, 140 pen) - Belt
Gronnstalker's Boots (30agi, 30stam, 21int, Y socket, 28crit, 86AP, 96 pen) - Boots
Hard Khorium Band (30agi, 42stam, 28haste, 58AP) - Ring
Starstalker Legguards (57agi, 49stam, 24int, YBB socket, 20hit, 120AP) - Pants
Blackened Naaru Sliver (54haste, Chance on Hit to gain a proc) - Unable to add, added the 54haste to the spear.
Also used:
Gronnstalker's Spaulders
Thalassian Wildercloak
Ring of Deceitful Intent
Berserker's Call
Bristleblitz Striker
I put 10agi gems in each socket save for:
Pants: Glinting Pyrestone, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst, Delicate Crimson Spinel
Boots: Glinting Pyrestone
Gloves; Delicate Crimson Spinel, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst
Spec was 7/20/34.
Obviously the lack of the trinket proc and T6 4piece set bonus hurt the dps, but even so this doesn't seem like a competitive build despite having exceptional sunwell gear. I've never done the BM thing, so I can't exactly say why all of the haste doesn't come near the dps of my BT/Hyjal geared hunter with imp arcane shot, but I think the numbers are definitely there to answer the question. If anyone else has done the math and come up with different answers I'd be interested to know, but this is definitely leading me toward the haste avoidance course of action.
Interestingly... I was wondering this exact same thing as I sat here at work. (yes, I should be working...) In order to hit 20% haste (equivalent of Serpent's Swiftness) you'd need 314 Haste Rating.
I modeled it out in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here's what I found: it's not worth it. Using the new gear, I modeled myself out to a raid buffed total of 1243 AGI, 784 STAM, 292 INT, 1474 +AP, 265 +CRIT, 99 +HIT, 364 PEN, and 295 HASTE. I had to add an additional 54 haste rating to my weapon and not use a trinket because Cheeky doesn't support adding trinkets, and I was unable to add in the T6 set bonus using the new pieces of T6, but even with those stats a 1:1 rotation shows a total DPS of 1235, compared to my current gear and shot rotation giving a DPS of 1533.
Things I added:
Shivering Felspine (52agi, Y socket, 53 haste, 120AP) - Polearm
Clutch of Demise (25agi, 33stam, 30 haste, 64AP) - Neck
Duplicitous Guise (43agi, 57stam, RM socket, 30 hit, 34 haste, 126AP) - Helm
Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm (41agi, 33stam, RB socket, 30 haste, 82AP) - Gloves
Embrace of the Phoenix (44agi, 43stam, 30int, RRR socket, 44haste, 104 AP) - Chest
Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP) - Bracers
Gronnstalker's Belt (29agi, 36stam, 17int, R socket, 25crit, 86AP, 140 pen) - Belt
Gronnstalker's Boots (30agi, 30stam, 21int, Y socket, 28crit, 86AP, 96 pen) - Boots
Hard Khorium Band (30agi, 42stam, 28haste, 58AP) - Ring
Starstalker Legguards (57agi, 49stam, 24int, YBB socket, 20hit, 120AP) - Pants
Blackened Naaru Sliver (54haste, Chance on Hit to gain a proc) - Unable to add, added the 54haste to the spear.
Also used:
Gronnstalker's Spaulders
Thalassian Wildercloak
Ring of Deceitful Intent
Berserker's Call
Bristleblitz Striker
I put 10agi gems in each socket save for:
Pants: Glinting Pyrestone, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst, Delicate Crimson Spinel
Boots: Glinting Pyrestone
Gloves; Delicate Crimson Spinel, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst
Spec was 7/20/34.
Obviously the lack of the trinket proc and T6 4piece set bonus hurt the dps, but even so this doesn't seem like a competitive build despite having exceptional sunwell gear. I've never done the BM thing, so I can't exactly say why all of the haste doesn't come near the dps of my BT/Hyjal geared hunter with imp arcane shot, but I think the numbers are definitely there to answer the question. If anyone else has done the math and come up with different answers I'd be interested to know, but this is definitely leading me toward the haste avoidance course of action.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Posted this a month or so back, I think it should help things.
Interestingly... I was wondering this exact same thing as I sat here at work. (yes, I should be working...) In order to hit 20% haste (equivalent of Serpent's Swiftness) you'd need 314 Haste Rating. I modeled it out in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here's what I found: it's not worth it. Using the new gear, I modeled myself out to a raid buffed total of 1243 AGI, 784 STAM, 292 INT, 1474 +AP, 265 +CRIT, 99 +HIT, 364 PEN, and 295 HASTE. I had to add an additional 54 haste rating to my weapon and not use a trinket because Cheeky doesn't support adding trinkets, and I was unable to add in the T6 set bonus using the new pieces of T6, but even with those stats a 1:1 rotation shows a total DPS of 1235, compared to my current gear and shot rotation giving a DPS of 1533. Things I added: Shivering Felspine (52agi, Y socket, 53 haste, 120AP) - Polearm Clutch of Demise (25agi, 33stam, 30 haste, 64AP) - Neck Duplicitous Guise (43agi, 57stam, RM socket, 30 hit, 34 haste, 126AP) - Helm Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm (41agi, 33stam, RB socket, 30 haste, 82AP) - Gloves Embrace of the Phoenix (44agi, 43stam, 30int, RRR socket, 44haste, 104 AP) - Chest Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP) - Bracers Gronnstalker's Belt (29agi, 36stam, 17int, R socket, 25crit, 86AP, 140 pen) - Belt Gronnstalker's Boots (30agi, 30stam, 21int, Y socket, 28crit, 86AP, 96 pen) - Boots Hard Khorium Band (30agi, 42stam, 28haste, 58AP) - Ring Starstalker Legguards (57agi, 49stam, 24int, YBB socket, 20hit, 120AP) - Pants Blackened Naaru Sliver (54haste, Chance on Hit to gain a proc) - Unable to add, added the 54haste to the spear. Also used: Gronnstalker's Spaulders Thalassian Wildercloak Ring of Deceitful Intent Berserker's Call Bristleblitz Striker I put 10agi gems in each socket save for: Pants: Glinting Pyrestone, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst, Delicate Crimson Spinel Boots: Glinting Pyrestone Gloves; Delicate Crimson Spinel, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst Spec was 7/20/34. Obviously the lack of the trinket proc and T6 4piece set bonus hurt the dps, but even so this doesn't seem like a competitive build despite having exceptional sunwell gear. I've never done the BM thing, so I can't exactly say why all of the haste doesn't come near the dps of my BT/Hyjal geared hunter with imp arcane shot, but I think the numbers are definitely there to answer the question. If anyone else has done the math and come up with different answers I'd be interested to know, but this is definitely leading me toward the haste avoidance course of action. |
Thats perfect and exactly what I was looking for. I, personally, have never been a big fan of haste, especially random +haste like iAotH or DST. I think that there are a few items in Sunwell that have _haste on them, that we could use and not effect our normal DPS rotations...but I think we need to be very careful about getting to the point where our own personal DPS is effected by +haste.
I already have a list made of of Sunwell items I want to get, and most of them are the +armor pen items, as opposed to +haste. I think for our build, this is the best option for us. I can see the benefits of +haste, but for our spec, I think +haste needs to come in very small incriminates as oppose to stacking it up and trying to get a BM-type rotation going.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Sore82
There seems to be a fine line when adding +Haste items to Survival builds. In many cases, by taking +Haste, you are giving up other stats - such as agility, armor pen, or whatever else. And there seems to be a needed amount to make the +Haste worth it. Adding a couple of +Haste pieces has the potential to throw off your shot rotation completly, to the point where a macro might not work anymore due to clipping. You see this a lot with items like DST or talents like iAotH or Rapid Fire, where you essentially have to change rotations to compensate for the added +Haste.
I see the goal of getting +Haste to the point of shooting you bow as fast as a BM Hunter and moving from a 1:1.5 rotation to a 1:1 or 2:3 rotation...but what is that number exactly...and in the end is it worth it compared to the other possibilities out there? If it has +Haste on it, it doesnt have +Armor Pen (usually)...so what is better? I have heard good things about both, but it seems like +Hast takes a lot more +Haste items to become truly beneficial, where as +Armor Pen does not. I know with Sunwell, there are several new +Haste items...so I guess my question comes down to...is it worth it? And if it is worth it, at what point should you start wearing +Haste over other gear without a loss of DPS due to a messy shot rotation? |
I am in favor adding a little haste to tighten up a rotation since you can get a significant bang (in increased DPS) for a relatively low buck (in allocating a little of your item level in haste instead of other stat types like agi, pen, etc.). I am not a big fan of trying to add enough passive haste to be able to outperform a 1:1.5 rotation on a 2.9 or 3.0 weapon with a 1:1 rotation since that requires sacrificing a lot of item level into haste instead of other stat types. I prefer to accomplish the rotation change with dynamic haste effects, such as RF and haste potions, instead.
Concerning how much haste is needed for either (or both) of those aspects, unfortunately there is no definitive answer to be used in all cases. Even with assuming an ideally executed rotation, it mostly depends on your range weapon speed and your standard rotation. I personally have not done analysis over all weapon speeds and rotations to determine how much haste is needed to tighten up a rotation or to switch rotations, but it definitely is not one size fits all.
Additional factors include how your chosen rotation is actually executed, such as latency and whether you hand-weave or use a macro as well as the design of the macro. Some macros that are fixed cast sequences will nicely tighten up with a little haste but will "break" once you pass a haste threshold and will not perform well since it is then trying to perform a non-ideal rotation for that amount of haste. Haste, whether it is passive or dynamic, and those type of macros do not work well together. Other macros that have a more flexible design can change your rotation up accordingly under all haste situations; however, some of these flexible macros do not always implement ideal rotations. Hence, if you are using haste gear and a shot macro, you need to make sure to select a macro that works well with your base weapon speed, desired rotation, and amount of passive haste. Using a 1:1 steady-auto macro and then hand weaving in the specials (arcane shot and multishot) with changing up the number of steady shots in between specials when under various haste effects is what works best for me.
If you want to see good shot rotations to be used under various haste effects for your character, then I suggest putting in your actual gear (with static haste) into Cheeky's with choosing the proper modeling for your rotation and how you execute it. This should show you what your base, non-dynamic haste rotation should be. In the hand change area on the Gear tab, you can then add in various amounts of dynamic haste comparable to the various haste effects to see how your shot rotation can change under those effects. If you choose macro, it often fixes your rotation, and the rotation will break after exceeding the amount of haste to ideally tighten it up and you will either see your DPS drop or not change much with haste. If you model hand-weaving, the spreadsheet usually modifies your rotation accordingly under the various haste effects.
If you want to see how various amounts of static haste effects your rotation, then choose different pieces of haste gear and see how it affects the rotations.
Sometimes you may want to modify your macro to fit your gear to get better DPS than modifying your gear to best meet your macro.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Making the suggested replacements would yield a significant amount of passive haste and will be highly disruptive to a 1:1.5 rotation. My goal in creating the set was zero haste but I do like SomeRandom's suggestion in replacing the neck. Excellent find there! I can see using 1 piece of passive haste gear to tighten the rotation by just a bit, using 2 pieces of haste gear is too much IMO.
1) My DPS dropped by 10 using duplicitous gaze over Cursed Vision. 2) Not sure how you came to this conclusion, using the embrace of the phoenix vs. bladed chaos drops my dps by over 50! 3) I also had the starstalker legs drop my dps by almost 21 vs. leggings of the immortal night. I will definitely be using the leather here 4) Hard Khorium Band again has haste rating, it dropped by dps by 10 vs. the ZA signet. I have the signet and the new badges ring as by far the best way to go for survival. Band of eternal champion is not nearly as good as either the signet or the badges ring. 5) I don't see how you could use the Naruu trinket, it dropped my dps by almost 40. I'm trying to fool around with a passive haste gear build using 5/20/36 but can't find anything that matches unhasted 1:1.5 Perhaps you were using 1:1.5 Imp. Arcane? I could see haste being beneficial with that setup. If you are modeling the 1:1.5 with multi/arcane you have to hand type it in, make sure in your setting and results tab it says 1:1.5 and not 1:1.3. The Spreadsheet attempts to avoid clipping so if you choose the standard 1:1.5 it really downgrades it to a 1:1.3 to avoid clipping but the clipping will increase your dps. |
As I stated, I didn't have enough time to do a full analysis, but I didn't clearly state what I meant by that. What I meant was that I didn't have enough time to assemble your suggested set and then to try different modifications to them. The data I provided was with comparing putting in those different pieces of gear to upgrade that single spot with my current gear set. That is why I said "consider" such and such instead of saying those pieces should be used. The data provided was from that analysis, which was the best I could do at that time.
Obviously, with me not using the complete set of gear with those synergies, especially with the different weapon speed, my result will vary from yours. However, some of the pieces you say are downgrades may actually be better depending on how you model your rotation as mentioned in my response above.
I also never meant for you to include all of those pieces at once, especially the haste ones, just to consider each individually since the partial analysis I did was only on a slot at a time not a full set. When I have more time, I may do a full analysis.
Under haste effects, unless very high amounts in which case I do a 1:1 rotation, I still use both arcane and multishot in appropriate locations. I just allow more steadies in between them as necessary.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/18/08 at 6:17 PM.
I've been looking at this for a while as well, and with a few changes, it gets a lot closer. For one thing, [Dragonspine Trophy] instead of [Berserker's Call] makes a big difference. Also, focusing on so much haste isn't necessarily the best way to do it. Balance between stats works a lot better.
Since I use the OO version, there could be errors in this. I don't have access to microsoft office, so if someone could double-check this on the latest version, I'd appreciate it.
Set 1 Gear (Standard gear):
Melee weapon: [Shiv of Exsanguination] x2
Head: [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
Neck: [Necklace of the Deep] (As long as we're counting EW DPS as well, might as well use this)
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
Back: [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest: [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Wrist: [Gronnstalker's Bracers]
Hands: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
Waist: [Gronnstalker's Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
Feet: [Gronnstalker's Boots]
Rings: [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets: [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
Range weapon: [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas](obviously the legendary would be better, but I'm not sure if the OO version is handling it correctly(no way to stop it from using the quiver?), so I'll stick with this one for now)
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] in everything except for [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in the boots and the helm.
Set 1 Total DPS: 2779.615
Hunter DPS: 1821.66
Pet DPS: 227.33
EW DPS: 1169 Agility / 1.6 = 730.625
Avg EW on Mob: 289.46
Rotation: 1:1.5
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Warp Burger, Elixir of Major Agi
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR
Set 2 Gear (Haste mix):
Melee weapon: [Shivering Felspine]
Head: [Duplicitous Guise]
Neck: [Clutch of Demise]
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
Back: [Cloak of Fiends]
Chest: [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Wrist: [Gronnstalker's Bracers]
Hands: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
Waist: [Gronnstalker's Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
Feet: [Gronnstalker's Boots]
Rings: [Hard Khorium Band] and [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets: [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Item 'blackened naaru sliver' not found!](54 haste, chance on hit proc)
Range weapon: [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] in everything except for [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in the boots and the polearm.
Set 2 Total DPS: 2673.695
Hunter DPS: 1732.14
Pet DPS: 219.68
EW DPS: 1155 Agility / 1.6 = 721.875
Avg EW on Mob: 283.77
Rotation: 1:1 steady auto only
Passive Haste: 224
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC
Spec: 7/20/34 (1/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Warp Burger, Elixir of Major Agi
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR
Adding in Kill Command(which should be fine used in this rotation, right?), another 83.94 dps, puts the difference to about 22 dps. Basically, it's going to depend on exactly how good the proc on the trinket is, whether this gets very close or actually surpasses using a 1:1.5 with the gear listed in set 1.
Also, because I'm using the OO version, I only set it up for a 1:1 steady rotation, rather than a 1:1 priority, which would add a few DPS as well.
Since I use the OO version, there could be errors in this. I don't have access to microsoft office, so if someone could double-check this on the latest version, I'd appreciate it.
Set 1 Gear (Standard gear):
Melee weapon: [Shiv of Exsanguination] x2
Head: [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
Neck: [Necklace of the Deep] (As long as we're counting EW DPS as well, might as well use this)
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
Back: [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest: [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Wrist: [Gronnstalker's Bracers]
Hands: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
Waist: [Gronnstalker's Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
Feet: [Gronnstalker's Boots]
Rings: [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets: [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
Range weapon: [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas](obviously the legendary would be better, but I'm not sure if the OO version is handling it correctly(no way to stop it from using the quiver?), so I'll stick with this one for now)
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] in everything except for [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in the boots and the helm.
Set 1 Total DPS: 2779.615
Hunter DPS: 1821.66
Pet DPS: 227.33
EW DPS: 1169 Agility / 1.6 = 730.625
Avg EW on Mob: 289.46
Rotation: 1:1.5
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Warp Burger, Elixir of Major Agi
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR
Set 2 Gear (Haste mix):
Melee weapon: [Shivering Felspine]
Head: [Duplicitous Guise]
Neck: [Clutch of Demise]
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
Back: [Cloak of Fiends]
Chest: [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Wrist: [Gronnstalker's Bracers]
Hands: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
Waist: [Gronnstalker's Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
Feet: [Gronnstalker's Boots]
Rings: [Hard Khorium Band] and [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets: [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Item 'blackened naaru sliver' not found!](54 haste, chance on hit proc)
Range weapon: [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] in everything except for [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in the boots and the polearm.
Set 2 Total DPS: 2673.695
Hunter DPS: 1732.14
Pet DPS: 219.68
EW DPS: 1155 Agility / 1.6 = 721.875
Avg EW on Mob: 283.77
Rotation: 1:1 steady auto only
Passive Haste: 224
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC
Spec: 7/20/34 (1/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Warp Burger, Elixir of Major Agi
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR
Adding in Kill Command(which should be fine used in this rotation, right?), another 83.94 dps, puts the difference to about 22 dps. Basically, it's going to depend on exactly how good the proc on the trinket is, whether this gets very close or actually surpasses using a 1:1.5 with the gear listed in set 1.
Also, because I'm using the OO version, I only set it up for a 1:1 steady rotation, rather than a 1:1 priority, which would add a few DPS as well.
Is the reason behind not using KC in the 1:1.5 rotation due to mana consumption? Or that it will mess up the rotation itself?
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Is the reason behind not using KC in the 1:1.5 rotation due to mana consumption? Or that it will mess up the rotation itself?
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Glynn...
Try swapping in a Crossbow of Relentless Strikes (the badge xbow) to both gearsets- I hate to say this, but it's BETTER than anything else in the game for both. (as someone who's had BT on farm for over 6 months, that makes me die a little inside, but that's a topic for another thread) I'm getting 1885 Personal DPS with a 1:1.5 rotation, 342.1 Pet DPS (I think you forgot to add those same buffs to your pet...), and 1101 Agility leading to 688.8 Raid DPS for the first gearset (no haste). 1831 Personal DPS with a 3:2 rotation, 352.9 Pet DPS, and 1120 Agility leading to 700 Raid DPS for the 2nd haste gearset.
Normal Gear: 2915.9 DPS
Haste Gear: 2883.9 DPS
Pretty close to the numbers you posted, and while 32 DPS isn't a huge difference it's certainly nothing to scoff at. What really surprised me out of this is the massive dps boost from the badge xbow- going from my current Bristleblitz Striker, it's over an 80 DPS upgrade. It's also more than 30 DPS better than the Golden Bow of Quel'thalas...
Try swapping in a Crossbow of Relentless Strikes (the badge xbow) to both gearsets- I hate to say this, but it's BETTER than anything else in the game for both. (as someone who's had BT on farm for over 6 months, that makes me die a little inside, but that's a topic for another thread) I'm getting 1885 Personal DPS with a 1:1.5 rotation, 342.1 Pet DPS (I think you forgot to add those same buffs to your pet...), and 1101 Agility leading to 688.8 Raid DPS for the first gearset (no haste). 1831 Personal DPS with a 3:2 rotation, 352.9 Pet DPS, and 1120 Agility leading to 700 Raid DPS for the 2nd haste gearset.
Normal Gear: 2915.9 DPS
Haste Gear: 2883.9 DPS
Pretty close to the numbers you posted, and while 32 DPS isn't a huge difference it's certainly nothing to scoff at. What really surprised me out of this is the massive dps boost from the badge xbow- going from my current Bristleblitz Striker, it's over an 80 DPS upgrade. It's also more than 30 DPS better than the Golden Bow of Quel'thalas...
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Update: I just ran the numbers and the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] is in no way an upgrade. It drops my personal dps by about 80 with set 1, and is a slight downgrade with set 2.
Trying to figure out what's causing the difference.. Are you using the latest stats on the 3 new gronnstalker pieces? I had to update them in the spreadsheet to match what's shown on WOWDB, wowhead, etc. With updated stats, I'm way over hit cap on both, 130 on set 1, and 120 on set 2.
Also, I do have the buffs applied to my pet. I'm pretty sure the difference in pet DPS is not using KC, though. Instead of just using the listed pet DPS, I manually added the normal and special DPS for the pet, ignoring KC.
Trying to figure out what's causing the difference.. Are you using the latest stats on the 3 new gronnstalker pieces? I had to update them in the spreadsheet to match what's shown on WOWDB, wowhead, etc. With updated stats, I'm way over hit cap on both, 130 on set 1, and 120 on set 2.
Also, I do have the buffs applied to my pet. I'm pretty sure the difference in pet DPS is not using KC, though. Instead of just using the listed pet DPS, I manually added the normal and special DPS for the pet, ignoring KC.
Last edited by Glynn : 03/19/08 at 3:43 AM.
-Somerandom,
I was inrigued by your post regarding the badge xbow and plugged it into my future badge set. I too noticed an increase but that was before I reran the shot rotation with the faster badge xbow. By my spreadsheet the Legionkiller is the better of the three wepons, I could be wrong though.
1385 bristle
1402 legion
1366 xbow of relentless
I was inrigued by your post regarding the badge xbow and plugged it into my future badge set. I too noticed an increase but that was before I reran the shot rotation with the faster badge xbow. By my spreadsheet the Legionkiller is the better of the three wepons, I could be wrong though.
1385 bristle
1402 legion
1366 xbow of relentless
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
-Somerandom,
I was inrigued by your post regarding the badge xbow and plugged it into my future badge set. I too noticed an increase but that was before I reran the shot rotation with the faster badge xbow. By my spreadsheet the Legionkiller is the better of the three wepons, I could be wrong though. 1385 bristle 1402 legion 1366 xbow of relentless |
I'm showing 1828 DPS with Legionkiller.
1808 with Bristleblitz Striker. (wow... I might switch back)
1883 with Crossbow of Relentless Strikes.
| with a 3:2 rotation |
Has anyone yet, from Blizzard, acknowledged that this behaviour is intended?
The whole way it work's feels like a bug not anything that was sensibly intended.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Sorry. I guess I did not make myself clear enough since I was rushing putting in my response while at work.
As I stated, I didn't have enough time to do a full analysis, but I didn't clearly state what I meant by that. What I meant was that I didn't have enough time to assemble your suggested set and then to try different modifications to them. The data I provided was with comparing putting in those different pieces of gear to upgrade that single spot with my current gear set. That is why I said "consider" such and such instead of saying those pieces should be used. The data provided was from that analysis, which was the best I could do at that time. Obviously, with me not using the complete set of gear with those synergies, especially with the different weapon speed, my result will vary from yours. However, some of the pieces you say are downgrades may actually be better depending on how you model your rotation as mentioned in my response above. I also never meant for you to include all of those pieces at once, especially the haste ones, just to consider each individually since the partial analysis I did was only on a slot at a time not a full set. When I have more time, I may do a full analysis. Under haste effects, unless very high amounts in which case I do a 1:1 rotation, I still use both arcane and multishot in appropriate locations. I just allow more steadies in between them as necessary. |
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Originally Posted by Kabuto
This came about with the ! addition and macro fixes/changes.
Has anyone yet, from Blizzard, acknowledged that this behaviour is intended? The whole way it work's feels like a bug not anything that was sensibly intended. |
Edit: I don't think Blizzard intended this, I have not seen or heard anything to make me believe that they understand hunter mechanics enough to implement such a change and if so why would it go undocumented.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
I was putting them in individually with the gear sets and those were the dps drops I observed. Of course all items should be considered but my post was in response to the ideal end-game gear set using a 3.0 bow speed. I don't see why you would consider any other speed rather than 3.0 when talking about end-game gearing.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
What's tying you down to a 3.0 speed bow? The math I'm looking at says that the 2.8 speed badge bow blows anything 3.0 except for the legendary bow out of the water. This wasn't behavior I expected, but I can't argue with numbers.
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I see the bow as a significant downgrade to my [Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow] not to mention the Archi or 3.0 sunwell bow.
Using 0/20/41 1:1.5 rotation (arcane + multi)
I'm finding some of the results posted kinda weird, will try to check with the spreadsheet and in game tests to see what happens tomorrow.
I was kinda convinced that 1:1.5 get obsolete once you get 4 t6 bonus and/or enough AP. Steadyshot just do more damage for less mana usage so i don't see the point of going "old school" and use arcane or multi, not to mention without RWS and barrage.
Correct me if i'm wrong but as it is now, the only way to pull out really high numbers as final DPS is to pop every major haste effect to drop to a 1:1 rotation for as much of the fight as possible (rapid fire, haste potion, heroism, drums...), the rest of the time you should go for your "normal" sequence and i don't see why 1:1.5 should beat the 3:2 (which is in fact 1:2 for SV typical weapon speed)
I was kinda convinced that 1:1.5 get obsolete once you get 4 t6 bonus and/or enough AP. Steadyshot just do more damage for less mana usage so i don't see the point of going "old school" and use arcane or multi, not to mention without RWS and barrage.
Correct me if i'm wrong but as it is now, the only way to pull out really high numbers as final DPS is to pop every major haste effect to drop to a 1:1 rotation for as much of the fight as possible (rapid fire, haste potion, heroism, drums...), the rest of the time you should go for your "normal" sequence and i don't see why 1:1.5 should beat the 3:2 (which is in fact 1:2 for SV typical weapon speed)
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I have searched and searched, but not found. Apologies if i missed it.
I need clarification that to make full use of a Wind Serpent as SV (0/20/41) that I need GftT and 35%+ crit to keep up the focus pool. Or can i get by without GftT?
Ninja edit: Yes I need GftT.
I need clarification that to make full use of a Wind Serpent as SV (0/20/41) that I need GftT and 35%+ crit to keep up the focus pool. Or can i get by without GftT?
Ninja edit: Yes I need GftT.
Last edited by JuhnorX : 03/20/08 at 9:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by JuhnorX
I have searched and searched, but not found. Apologies if i missed it.
I need clarification that to make full use of a Wind Serpent as SV (0/20/41) that I need GftT and 35%+ crit to keep up the focus pool. Or can i get by without GftT? Ninja edit: Yes I need GftT. |
I find personally, from watching my pets focus bar alone, that raiding with around 38% unbuffed crit my pet generally is able to spam LB quite often. When potted and grouped up your 35% crit will become far more than enough to keep that LB pew pewing basically non stop.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
What are you looking at to find this?
I see the bow as a significant downgrade to my [Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow] not to mention the Archi or 3.0 sunwell bow. Using 0/20/41 1:1.5 rotation (arcane + multi) |
Arcanite Steam Pistol: 1825.98 DPS
Black Bow of the Betrayer: 1791.94 DPS
Crossbow of Relentless Strikes: 1875.98 DPS
Bristleblitz Striker: 1799.92 DPS
Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow: 1794.38 DPS
Vengeful Gladiator's Rifle: 1808.34 DPS
Thoridal, the Stars' Fury: 1930.65 DPS
Golden Bow of Quel'thalas: 1840.76 DPS
Legionkiller: 1819.68 DPS
I'm currently 0/20/41, using a 1:1.X rotation with both multi and arcane shot in Cheeky's Spreadsheet. Gear is as you listed above, except I have a Clutch of Demise instead of Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Using my dwarf specifically, with all other gear the same (basically the list of ideal sunwell gear you posted earlier):
Arcanite Steam Pistol: 1825.98 DPS Black Bow of the Betrayer: 1791.94 DPS Crossbow of Relentless Strikes: 1875.98 DPS Bristleblitz Striker: 1799.92 DPS Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow: 1794.38 DPS Vengeful Gladiator's Rifle: 1808.34 DPS Thoridal, the Stars' Fury: 1930.65 DPS Golden Bow of Quel'thalas: 1840.76 DPS Legionkiller: 1819.68 DPS I'm currently 0/20/41, using a 1:1.X rotation with both multi and arcane shot in Cheeky's Spreadsheet. Gear is as you listed above, except I have a Clutch of Demise instead of Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Using my dwarf specifically, with all other gear the same (basically the list of ideal sunwell gear you posted earlier):
Arcanite Steam Pistol: 1825.98 DPS Black Bow of the Betrayer: 1791.94 DPS Crossbow of Relentless Strikes: 1875.98 DPS Bristleblitz Striker: 1799.92 DPS Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow: 1794.38 DPS Vengeful Gladiator's Rifle: 1808.34 DPS Thoridal, the Stars' Fury: 1930.65 DPS Golden Bow of Quel'thalas: 1840.76 DPS Legionkiller: 1819.68 DPS I'm currently 0/20/41, using a 1:1.X rotation with both multi and arcane shot in Cheeky's Spreadsheet. Gear is as you listed above, except I have a Clutch of Demise instead of Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem. |
Since we are not all dwarves with a 0/20/41 spec and since most of us will never acquire the "ideal" gear set, I do not suggest blindly going off and spending the 150 badges on the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] since it may or may not be best for you. Before doing so, suggest performing your own analysis on your character with your current gear set to determine whether it is the best weapon for you now.
I would hate for someone to spend 150 badges on it and have to wait to buy other possible badge gear upgrades only to find that it is actually a downgrade for them depending on what gear they currently have.
As an example, using my tauren with also a 0/20/41 spec and 1:1.X rotation with both multi and arcane shot and my current gear (my guild is closing in on halfway through T6 instances - the easy half) with being fully raid buffed and with some standard target debuffs, I get the following results:
Arcanite Steam Pistol: 1642.97 DPS and 295.7 EW AP (current weapon)
Black Bow of the Betrayer*: 1698.46 DPS and 287.48 EW AP
Crossbow of Relentless Strikes^: 1683.49 DPS and 289.21 EW AP
Bristleblitz Striker*: 1704.46 DPS and 287.80 EW AP
Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow*: 1700.71 DPS and 287.69 EW AP
Vengeful Gladiator's Rifle*: 1700.71 DPS and 287.69 EW AP (same as longbow since no racial benefits)
Thoridal, the Stars' Fury*: 1802.35 DPS and 293.18 EW AP
Golden Bow of Quel'thalas*: 1735.08 DPS and 293.30 EW AP
Legionkiller*: 1644.19 DPS and 294.10 EW AP
*Note that I lose 19 HR when switching from Arcanite Steam Pistol, the best option I currently have for regaining that HR and improving my DPS is switching [Ring of the Recalcitrant] with [Garona's Signet Ring] since I never won the [Ring of Lethality] as an improved hit ring when needed. I am working to get some upgrade items that also give me more HR to alleviate this problem.
^ Even though 6 HR under cap with this weapon, I kept [Ring of the Recalcitrant] since better DPS and EW AP.
Hence, if I was to use only my available gear and only upgrade my ranged weapon, there are 4 options not including the legendary bow (all shown in bold) that are bigger upgrades for my character in both personal and raid DPS than the badge crossbow. These will also even be bigger upgrades once I acquire better HR gear so that I won't have to wear inferior gear to keep up my HR. However, with my average personal and arena team ratings, 1 of those options is not feasible to acquire. Plus, with my guild's progression, another 2 of those options will not be seen for a while. Only the Bristleblitz Striker may be accessible somewhat soon as we will be starting attempts on him shortly. I am hoping to get Legionkiller soon as a minor upgrade until then (it will be a bigger DPS and EW upgrade for me than shown above once I acquire better HR options).
Thus, I need to decide whether I want to spend my badges on the crossbow when 2.4 comes out or to spend my badges on other items (such as the ring which may be an endgame ring or some upgrades with HR that will help with my HR dilemma) and bide my time until I get Bristleblitz Striker and then eventually the sunwell bow. Of course, this decision may be made clearer if I get Bristleblitz Striker before 2.4 comes out. In addition, when 2.4 comes out, I will need to reperform this evaluation with my gear set that is current at that time since the data and my priorities will have changed.
Moral: When it comes to gear selection, do not take another person's data for gospel since their results may not apply for your character. Please perform your own analysis.
Suggestion: If you do not have sufficient arena rating to buy the best arena weapon and am not in T6 instances, then buying the badge crossbow should be a big upgrade for you. However, if you can acquire the a3 weapons or are in T6 instances, suggest perform analyses similar to SomeRandomIdiot's and mine before making a decision.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/20/08 at 2:45 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Got a double post. Sorry.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/20/08 at 2:36 PM. Reason: Removing accidental double post
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I'm currently 0/20/41, using a 1:1.X rotation with both multi and arcane shot in Cheeky's Spreadsheet. Gear is as you listed above, except I have a Clutch of Demise instead of Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Using my dwarf specifically, with all other gear the same (basically the list of ideal sunwell gear you posted earlier):
Arcanite Steam Pistol: 1825.98 DPS Black Bow of the Betrayer: 1791.94 DPS Crossbow of Relentless Strikes: 1875.98 DPS Bristleblitz Striker: 1799.92 DPS Vengeful Gladiator's Longbow: 1794.38 DPS Vengeful Gladiator's Rifle: 1808.34 DPS Thoridal, the Stars' Fury: 1930.65 DPS Golden Bow of Quel'thalas: 1840.76 DPS Legionkiller: 1819.68 DPS I'm currently 0/20/41, using a 1:1.X rotation with both multi and arcane shot in Cheeky's Spreadsheet. Gear is as you listed above, except I have a Clutch of Demise instead of Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem. |
If you hit the 1:1.X rotation button, the spreadsheet actually gives you a 1:1.3 instead of a 1:1.5 to avoid clipping, you need to change it manually, make sure in the "settings and results tab" under "haste breakdown" that the normal box has you at 1:1.5 and not 1:1.3
| I was kinda convinced that 1:1.5 get obsolete once you get 4 t6 bonus and/or enough AP. Steadyshot just do more damage for less mana usage so i don't see the point of going "old school" and use arcane or multi, not to mention without RWS and barrage. |
| As it looks now, the 1.9% haste on the necklace is just enough to tilt the balance for the badge crossbow against the sunwell bow. Once again, speed is worth more than ilevel, apparently. |
Last edited by Vasilii : 03/20/08 at 5:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
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Originally Posted by Sore82
would using [Band of the Eternal Champion] instead of either of those two be a bad choice? What exactly is the DPS difference between them?
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Originally Posted by Sore82
would using [Band of the Eternal Champion] instead of either of those two be a bad choice? What exactly is the DPS difference between them?
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Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
Other hunters can provide you such answers, but our results are for on our characters with our race, spec, gear, rotation, and standard raid buffs, which are bound to be different from yours.
Now if you are asking what differences others are observing, that is a question I can answer.
For my character, with full raid buffed and using [Angelista's Revenge] and [Signet of Primal Wrath], I have:
DPS: 1669.60
EW AP: 297.01
With substituting [Band of the Eternal Champion] for [Angelista's Revenge], I get +165 health and:
DPS: 1666.66
EW AP: 297.01
With substituting [Band of the Eternal Champion] for [Signet of Primal Wrath], I get +143 health and:
DPS: 1667.46
EW AP: 297.33
As can be seen, for my character as well as Vasilii's, [Angelista's Revenge] and [Signet of Primal Wrath] is the best combo of the three; however, the differences are small (~0.18%), and I would be happy with any 2 of the 3. In fact, I will probably have [Band of the Eternal Champion] and [Angelista's Revenge], unless I can get [Signet of Primal Wrath] to drop and win it since it is the hardest of the three to acquire.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
@Enova: As Whitefyst suggested, please do the analysis yourself, making assumptions like this leads to misinformation. If you're using a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.8 speed weapon you would actually want to avoid any haste at all because it will only lead to more clipping. In my spreadsheet the clutch of demise is actually less dps than telonciu's pendant because of the haste. Speed is worth more than iLevel, its just that you want slower and not faster :P I suggest you all do some serious analysis before passing on the sunwell bow for the badge crossbow.
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And yeah, it's my bad there, I was following a different - and not very scientific - train of thought (i.e haste reduces less off a faster weapon's speed compared to a slower one).
Personally, the crossbow is nowhere near my first choice of weaponry, regardless of what the spreadsheets say. I find Legionkiller's 2.9 too fast as it is on laggy nights.
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Originally Posted by Leighlu
Have you seen a marked improvement with this spec over your previous imp arcane spec? I've had the most success thus far with it, which I modeled after your previous builds.
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In other words, I haven't seen any "marked improvement", and while it may be superior dps in an abstract sense, I can't say I've decided what I'm going to end up shooting with. Hope this helps.
@Whytefist: I hadn't meant those numbers to be anything more than justification for my previous statement that for me, the badge bow was superior DPS. I specifically stated in the post what gear I was using (since it's not the gear I currently wear... most of it is out of sunwell). I hope that everyone here knows how to use Cheeky's spreadsheet, and makes constant use out of it- if you're smart enough to seek out the EJ Survival Hunter thread, and masochistic enough to survive all of the theorycrafting, checking out stuff on your own gear should be second nature. Besides- what is a dwarf going to gain from an xbow that another race won't? The gear I posted was hit capped, and the only complication was the 30 haste rating from the necklace.
As far as for my real, current gear:
Arcanite Steam Pistol: 1561.97 DPS
Bristleblitz Striker: 1532.46 DPS
Crossbow of Relentless Strikes: 1604.82 DPS
@Vasilii: Not sure what you're talking about regarding changing my shot rotation, cheeky is showing me as doing a 1:1.4 rotation at the moment. If it's something big I'm missing I'm going to feel like an idiot...
Lets not pussy foot around. There is a lot of misinformation and ill conceived crap getting posted at the moment. Our sole focus at this moment in time should be focusing getting upto 1800 ish raid buffed DPS for Sunwell. Its all very well posting gear sets and its good fun doing it, I did it myself. The DPS swings for this or that item are absolutely nothing when compared to using a successful /cast macro. Check the BM thread and you will find 200+ DPS swings when using /cast macros. Now as we are supposed to substantiate such general comments I will attempt to do so.
Gurth, this is probably the most succint and accurate post I've seen on this thread for a while.
Vasilii this is possibly the most offensive single response that I have read on a hunter thread in, well a long while. HE CAN'T RUN IT THROUGH CHEEKY'S!!! A SV /cast Macro simulation doesn't exist on Cheeky's!!!. I will explain.
MISCONCEPTION No1
That a 3:2 macro exists. It Doesn't. It is for want of a better description a /cast macro. It can only have the generic name /cast macro because quite simply put it does different things for different hunters. When the BM guys use it they get 60 Steady Shots for every 40 Autos. When we as Survival or Marksman for that matter use it we get 66 Steady Shots for every 33 Autos. For the love of cookies we as SV don't even have a name for it!!! Using the BM syntax of 3:2 our version of it becomes 2:1. If we use the old version of our 1:1.5 rotation we would call the /cast macro 1:2. I'm going to refer to it as the 2:1 macro and rotation to avoid further confusion.
MISCONCEPTION No2
That Cheeky's Spreadsheet Supports a /cast macro or rotation for Survival or Marksman Hunters. It Doesn't Cheeky has created the 3:2 spam button as an approximation to what the BM guys see using a /cast macro Not Survival Hunters. He has not and will not create a spam rotation to support the spam 2:1 rotation any time soon. Cheeky's is godly for doing basic gear comparisons, although even this has problems as I'll come onto later.
So what does this mean???
It means for out and out DPS analyses using SV or MM specs its next to useless being limited to hand-weavers and /castsequence macro users at the moment. If you want analyses go take yourselves off to Boom or even better still Badlands.
THE THREE OPTIONS
1) The Vasilii Option. The Baseline Option, 1:1.5 Hand-Weaved
2) Use a /Castsequence macro
3) Use a /Cast Auto /Cast Steady macro to create a Steady-Steady-Auto (2:1) rotation
1) We're going to call this the Vasilii Option as this is what he keeps telling us all to do. Lets assume Vasilii can execute a perfect Hand-Weaved full Arcane Shot and Multi Shot 1:1.5 rotation. Lets assume that Vasilii uses Quartz cast bars or similar. Lets assume that Vasilli can hit all his shots at the start of the red bit of his cast bar. Lets assume that Vasilli can do all this spot on for the duration of a 4 hour raid. One last assumption is that Vasilii shoots exactly 1 arrow every 1 second on average. We have now created the perfect 1:1.5 Hand-Weaved rotation that is in fact modelled by Cheeky. We will call this the Baseline Option.
2) The /castsequence Macro Option. Now lets assume we can't stand staring at our cast bar addon for 4 hours every night and we decide we need a little help. We use the /castsequence macro. Straight away we have cost ourselves 10% DPS over Vasilii's way of doing things. At 100 latency we now only fire 9 arrows for Vasilii's 10 due to the server "waiting" between each and every shot of your chosen /castsequence. This is still very viable if you have a latency range of say 30 - 60 as has always been the case. Nothing changed here then. Most people in reality just use a sequence of Steady//Auto and hand weave Arcanes and Multis, nonetheless the principal is exactly the same and results in lost DPS.
3) The /cast Macro Option. Using the /cast Macro yields an 11.55% DPS increase OVER AND ABOVE Vasilii's perfectly executed 1:1.5 rotaion. Wow thats a bold statement isn't it?
It is indeed. The single most effective way to justify why it can be so is to quote the guy who modelled the 3:2 spam rotation in the spreadsheet that is the root cause of some the confusion here in the SV thread. Cheeky himself.
If you actually study what Cheeky did to model the 3:2 rotation then you will see why we should all be concentrating on getting the /cast macro to work.
THE /CAST MACRO ABSOLUTELY FREE BONUSES
1) Oh we do 66 Steadys for every 33 Autos... What does our 4 set bonus give? oh erm 10% extra SS damage
2) Oh we do 66 Steadys for every 33 Autos... Which is our single most efficient Damage per Mana Shot? oh its erm Steady Shot.
3) Ah but to do the DPS that Kurkis or Thoranir posted we need to be hasted for as long as possible and be able to effectively drop to a 1:1 Rotation at any given time... Oh the /cast Macro does this automatically for you without even breaking stride.
HASTE ITEMISATION AND WHY CHEEKY'S CAN BE DODGY
So I have found the two best Survival pieces in the game!!! Oh really and what may these be?
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] and [Cloak of Fiends] Yup go plug 1 or both of these items in Cheeky's for your current pre 2.4 set ups and you will find they increase your DPS rediculously. Especially when paired with a 3.0 weapon.
So Vasilii I don't see you using either of these items on Armory even though Cheeky's is telling you to do so, why is that?.
As you can see just blindly following Cheeky's for DPS is not only dangerous, it is quite plainly wrong when actually using the /cast Macro.
Bottom line is go test on Boom for yourselves, you can't use Cheeky's for SV and a /cast macro
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Originally Posted by Gurth
I was kinda convinced that 1:1.5 get obsolete once you get 4 t6 bonus and/or enough AP. Steadyshot just do more damage for less mana usage so i don't see the point of going "old school" and use arcane or multi, not to mention without RWS and barrage.
Correct me if i'm wrong but as it is now, the only way to pull out really high numbers as final DPS is to pop every major haste effect to drop to a 1:1 rotation for as much of the fight as possible (rapid fire, haste potion, heroism, drums...), the rest of the time you should go for your "normal" sequence and i don't see why 1:1.5 should beat the 3:2 (which is in fact 1:2 for SV typical weapon speed) |
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
@Gurth: This is a baseless assumption with no analysis behind it, all current analysis done on cheeky's points to 1:1.5 being far superior to 3:2 rotation for high end survival raiding... its nice that you have an opinion, but please do not share it without some evidence to back it up... the least you can do is a run through of cheeky's.
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MISCONCEPTION No1
That a 3:2 macro exists. It Doesn't. It is for want of a better description a /cast macro. It can only have the generic name /cast macro because quite simply put it does different things for different hunters. When the BM guys use it they get 60 Steady Shots for every 40 Autos. When we as Survival or Marksman for that matter use it we get 66 Steady Shots for every 33 Autos. For the love of cookies we as SV don't even have a name for it!!! Using the BM syntax of 3:2 our version of it becomes 2:1. If we use the old version of our 1:1.5 rotation we would call the /cast macro 1:2. I'm going to refer to it as the 2:1 macro and rotation to avoid further confusion.
MISCONCEPTION No2
That Cheeky's Spreadsheet Supports a /cast macro or rotation for Survival or Marksman Hunters. It Doesn't Cheeky has created the 3:2 spam button as an approximation to what the BM guys see using a /cast macro Not Survival Hunters. He has not and will not create a spam rotation to support the spam 2:1 rotation any time soon. Cheeky's is godly for doing basic gear comparisons, although even this has problems as I'll come onto later.
So what does this mean???
It means for out and out DPS analyses using SV or MM specs its next to useless being limited to hand-weavers and /castsequence macro users at the moment. If you want analyses go take yourselves off to Boom or even better still Badlands.
THE THREE OPTIONS
1) The Vasilii Option. The Baseline Option, 1:1.5 Hand-Weaved
2) Use a /Castsequence macro
3) Use a /Cast Auto /Cast Steady macro to create a Steady-Steady-Auto (2:1) rotation
1) We're going to call this the Vasilii Option as this is what he keeps telling us all to do. Lets assume Vasilii can execute a perfect Hand-Weaved full Arcane Shot and Multi Shot 1:1.5 rotation. Lets assume that Vasilii uses Quartz cast bars or similar. Lets assume that Vasilli can hit all his shots at the start of the red bit of his cast bar. Lets assume that Vasilli can do all this spot on for the duration of a 4 hour raid. One last assumption is that Vasilii shoots exactly 1 arrow every 1 second on average. We have now created the perfect 1:1.5 Hand-Weaved rotation that is in fact modelled by Cheeky. We will call this the Baseline Option.
2) The /castsequence Macro Option. Now lets assume we can't stand staring at our cast bar addon for 4 hours every night and we decide we need a little help. We use the /castsequence macro. Straight away we have cost ourselves 10% DPS over Vasilii's way of doing things. At 100 latency we now only fire 9 arrows for Vasilii's 10 due to the server "waiting" between each and every shot of your chosen /castsequence. This is still very viable if you have a latency range of say 30 - 60 as has always been the case. Nothing changed here then. Most people in reality just use a sequence of Steady//Auto and hand weave Arcanes and Multis, nonetheless the principal is exactly the same and results in lost DPS.
3) The /cast Macro Option. Using the /cast Macro yields an 11.55% DPS increase OVER AND ABOVE Vasilii's perfectly executed 1:1.5 rotaion. Wow thats a bold statement isn't it?
It is indeed. The single most effective way to justify why it can be so is to quote the guy who modelled the 3:2 spam rotation in the spreadsheet that is the root cause of some the confusion here in the SV thread. Cheeky himself.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
So I've taken a stab at the new macro and how to model it.
During my investigations I discovered something no one had been talking about, but which is part of why the macro works like it does. Auto Shot's cast speed is not 0.5s in practice. I analyzed almost 100 times when chained Steady Shots would clip an Auto and measured the time between the last Steady Shot and the Auto Shot. I understand there is jitter in the combat logs, so I'm hoping the sample size is enough to draw some conclusions. Here are the results: 1 - 70 of the 96 test cases showed a difference under 0.5s. 26 showed over. 2 - Over all test cases there was an average of 0.44823s between Auto and the previous Steady. 3 - This works out to an 11.55% haste effect over the tooltip 0.5s cast time. Using that data, and what we've seen regarding client-only GCD, I've modified the Shot Rotation matrix as follows: 1 - Latency is no longer added to Steady Shot cast time. 2 - If the shot previous to a GCD-using shot was an Auto Shot, I readjust the GCD start to be the greater of previous GCD or previous Auto Shot cast time + latency. 3 - Auto Shot's cast time is adjusted by the 11.55% haste factor I've found above. If this holds true (see caveats below) then the sweet spot of weapon speed seems to be about 2.9s. This also seems to be what the anecdotal evidence is saying. We may still be weapon speed dependant, just on a different, much more narrow speed now. Caveats: 0 - This was a modified version 40 of the spreadsheet, it was only to look at timings. 1 - We need much more testing under different constant haste effects to determine exactly how Auto Shot's cast time is modified. 2 - With jitter in latency, it will be almost impossible to ever model this in a way that can be replicated consistently in game. I saw variances in Auto Shot cast time from 0.17 - 0.8s. 3 - This whole mechanic is so fucking stupid I'm seriously thinking about giving up on modeling Hunters. I can't for the life of me figure out how any of this is "working as intended" and I really wish Blizzard would at least give us some indication of what they'd like our mechanics to be. 4 - I could be completetly wrong about all of this, but it's the only model I've been able to come up with that fits the facts I've seen. The logs with 4-5 Steady chains still worry me, and it may be related to a small window for clobbering available right before an Auto Shot is cast (maybe the time between the 0.5s base cast time and the hasted time?) |
THE /CAST MACRO ABSOLUTELY FREE BONUSES
1) Oh we do 66 Steadys for every 33 Autos... What does our 4 set bonus give? oh erm 10% extra SS damage
2) Oh we do 66 Steadys for every 33 Autos... Which is our single most efficient Damage per Mana Shot? oh its erm Steady Shot.
3) Ah but to do the DPS that Kurkis or Thoranir posted we need to be hasted for as long as possible and be able to effectively drop to a 1:1 Rotation at any given time... Oh the /cast Macro does this automatically for you without even breaking stride.
HASTE ITEMISATION AND WHY CHEEKY'S CAN BE DODGY
So I have found the two best Survival pieces in the game!!! Oh really and what may these be?
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] and [Cloak of Fiends] Yup go plug 1 or both of these items in Cheeky's for your current pre 2.4 set ups and you will find they increase your DPS rediculously. Especially when paired with a 3.0 weapon.
So Vasilii I don't see you using either of these items on Armory even though Cheeky's is telling you to do so, why is that?.
As you can see just blindly following Cheeky's for DPS is not only dangerous, it is quite plainly wrong when actually using the /cast Macro.
Bottom line is go test on Boom for yourselves, you can't use Cheeky's for SV and a /cast macro
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
3) The /cast Macro Option. Using the /cast Macro yields an 11.55% DPS increase OVER AND ABOVE Vasilii's perfectly executed 1:1.5 rotaion. Wow thats a bold statement isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
During my investigations I discovered something no one had been talking about, but which is part of why the macro works like it does. Auto Shot's cast speed is not 0.5s in practice. I analyzed almost 100 times when chained Steady Shots would clip an Auto and measured the time between the last Steady Shot and the Auto Shot. I understand there is jitter in the combat logs, so I'm hoping the sample size is enough to draw some conclusions. Here are the results:
1 - 70 of the 96 test cases showed a difference under 0.5s. 26 showed over. 2 - Over all test cases there was an average of 0.44823s between Auto and the previous Steady. 3 - This works out to an 11.55% haste effect over the tooltip 0.5s cast time. |
| 1) Oh we do 66 Steadys for every 33 Autos... What does our 4 set bonus give? oh erm 10% extra SS damage |
| 2) Oh we do 66 Steadys for every 33 Autos... Which is our single most efficient Damage per Mana Shot? oh its erm Steady Shot. |
| 3) Ah but to do the DPS that Kurkis or Thoranir posted we need to be hasted for as long as possible and be able to effectively drop to a 1:1 Rotation at any given time... Oh the /cast Macro does this automatically for you without even breaking stride. |
Let's try including a little math in this comparison. You said under ideal circumstances, a 1.5:1 rot produces 1 shot per second. How does the 2:1 match up? Steady #1 requires 1.5 seconds because you have to wait for the GCD. Steady #2 requires 1.3 seconds because you don't. And autoshot requires the .45 determined by Cheeky. That adds up to 3 shots per 3.25 seconds, or about 9% fewer shots than a 1:1.5. The only way a 2:1 rotation will perform better is if it's compensating for a deficiency caused by lag and/or player reaction times.
I agree that people shouldn't blindly follow what is advocated by a spreadsheet. The numbers it produces are a theoretical guess, and should be viewed as a guideline, while the facts are provided by your own testing and WWS. Anyone who is considering using a 2:1 macro needs to go stand in front of Dr. Boom for 30 mins and get a personal unhasted comparison of 2:1 and 1.5:1. I've done this, and 1.5:1 was better. Unfortunately I didn't save the results for your viewing pleasure, but your latency and reaction times are different from mine, so you really should be doing your own test.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tiberium, I'm not sure what all the theatrics were for, but I'm going to partially agree with you and partially disagree with you.
The important thing to note is that we are discussing "macros" here, and not rotations. A rotation is an idealized list of shots to be executed in a specific order, designed to produce maximum dps for a given mana expenditure.
Rotation Example #1: Auto Shot
Auto -> Auto -> Auto -> Auto
Rotation Example #2: 1:1
Auto -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady ->Auto
Rotation Example #3: 1:1.5
Auto -> Steady -> Arcane -> Auto -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Multi -> Auto -> Steady
Rotation Example #4: 3:2 (I'm still not sure why it's called 3:2... wouldn't that mean 3 Auto Shots to every 2 Specials?)
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Steady
As I'm sure is obvious, different rotations have different positives/negatives. The Auto Shot rotation is absurdly mana-effecient. The 1:1 rotation scales incredibly well with large amounts of haste. A 3:2 rotation does very well with moderate amounts of haste. A 1:1.5 rotation does very well with no haste. Therefore, based on the amount of haste we currently have, we should choose the best rotation for the job.
Now that we have an understanding of rotations, we need to actually produce them. People do this in many ways.
A purist might hand cast every special shot in his rotation.
A macro can be used to produce the rotation without hand casting shots.
An infinite number of intermediate steps exist between these, where a macro is used for some shots, but not for others.
I believe the purist approach is not practical for most hunters at this point, because the requirements of personally firing every shot in your rotation take away from other important concepts like situational awareness, as well as being very reliant on your consistent perfection. As such, we've established that we are going to use a macro, for at least some of our shots. What macro we will end up using depends greatly on which rotation we wish to accomplish.
Macros are created via 2 ways: /cast and /castsequence. /cast tells the server to cast exactly 1 spell. /castsequence tells the server to cast a series of spells. In order to function the way it does, /castsequence relies on communication back from the server to validate that the spell did in fact go off before firing the next one, and is therefore much weaker in situations where latency is a factor (and as has been shown, it doesn't take much latency for /castsequence to suffer).
If our goal is to produce a 3:2 rotation, we have a few options.
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot
/cast !Auo Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Both of these, in situations of moderate haste (20-30% haste) will produce the 3:2 rotation. The second macro, however, is superior to the first because of latency. While the first macro relies on communication from the server via /castsequence, the second does not, and thus fires the shots in the rotation faster.
Likewise, if we wish to produce a 1:1.5 rotation, we could use:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
handweave your arcane and multi shots
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
handweave your arcane and multi shots
(note: while this macro produced a 3:2 rotation up above, if you are firing specials in between it will actually produce a 1:1 ratio of Auto Shot to Steady Shot)
Here, we have even more options, depending on the extent to which you want to handweave your shots. I think we can rule out the first macro, as it relies entirely on /castsequence yet produces the same results as the second. We can also rule out the 3rd macro, since the same case exists with the 4th. Which one is superior? It's hard to say. I'll be covering this later.
I hope that clears up the difference between rotations and macros, and provides the groundwork for what I'm going to say now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In an unhasted situation, the highest DPS rotation available to us is a 1:1.5 rotation. If you disagree with this statement, please read the many pages of theory I have posted on the matter for an explanation.
Small amounts of haste will increase the DPS of a 1:1.5 rotation (we refer to that as "tightening" the rotation) but after a certain point haste gives less and less benefit.
As haste increases, a 1:1.5 rotation stops getting better while a 3:2 rotation continues to improve. Where they intersect is hard to tell, but a good reference point is that at 20% haste, a 3:2 rotation is superior to a 1:1.5 rotation.
At extreme amounts of haste, a 1:1 rotation is superior to all other rotations.
Taken to absurdity, at infinite haste a purely Auto Shot rotation is the best possible.
As such, we now have a guide for which rotation to use in which situation:
1) When you are not hasted, use a 1:1.5 rotation.
2) When you are moderately hasted (20-30%) use a 3:2 rotation.
3) When you are heavily hasted (50-60%) use a 1:1 rotation.
Please note, to this point I have only been discussing rotations.
How we achieve these rotations is a different matter.
With moderate haste, the macro
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
will produce a 3:2 rotation, and does so in the most efficient way possible. As an added bonus, in situations of high haste, this macro produces a 1:1 rotation! This means that we can use it in both situations, and don't have to worry about when "moderate haste" ends and "high haste" begins.
The final situation to address is that of no (or almost no- remember tightening) haste, when we want to produce a 1:1.5 rotation. Here we have a choice in macros, as was mentioned above.
Option #1:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
manually fire Arcane Shot and Multi Shot
Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency.
Cons: Manual firing of shots means it is vulnerable to all sorts of human inefficiencies.
Option #2:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot
Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies.
Cons: Use of /castsequence means that some of the shots (specifically the steady shots and half the auto shots) are vulnerable to the effects of latency.
Which of these macros is superior? It's hard to say. The top one relies on human reflexes and timing, the bottom relies on communication with the server.
Do you believe your personal timing and consistency is incredible, or your latency is terrible? Use option #1.
Do you believe your personal timing and consistency aren't that incredible, or you have low latency? Use option #2.
Do you have great timing AND great latency? Use option #2, and you won't have to rely on your timing.
Do you have not-so-great timing and bad latency? Weigh your consistent timing against your latency, and determine which is likely to be worse. Use the macro that makes up for whichever one is worse.
Conclusion: When determining which macro I will use to achieve a certain rotation, there are many factors to consider. Vasilii, for instance, is confident in his ability to handweave his shots, and as such performs the first macro I have described. (if this isn't the one you use, my apologies- however, I'm pretty sure it is) I'm not quite so confident in my ability to keep up a perfect timing of specials for 4+ hours straight, and as well I play with great latency (grats for living in California I suppose), so I use the second macro.
Final Note: If you are using a 3:2 rotation during periods of no haste, you are not maximizing your dps. If you are using a 1:1.5 rotation during periods of extreme haste, you are not maximizing your dps. More haste is better- as haste increases, your dps will increase IF you use the correct rotation for the amount of haste you are currently affected by. I hope this clears up a lot of the confusion going around at the moment.
Edit: Wow... that's a LOT longer than I initially thought it'd be. I fixed a couple places where I wasn't as clear as I could have been, but on the whole I hope after reading it you all understand what's going on, and are therefore able to discuss the different macros and rotations posted on this thread.
The important thing to note is that we are discussing "macros" here, and not rotations. A rotation is an idealized list of shots to be executed in a specific order, designed to produce maximum dps for a given mana expenditure.
Rotation Example #1: Auto Shot
Auto -> Auto -> Auto -> Auto
Rotation Example #2: 1:1
Auto -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady ->Auto
Rotation Example #3: 1:1.5
Auto -> Steady -> Arcane -> Auto -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Multi -> Auto -> Steady
Rotation Example #4: 3:2 (I'm still not sure why it's called 3:2... wouldn't that mean 3 Auto Shots to every 2 Specials?)
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Steady
As I'm sure is obvious, different rotations have different positives/negatives. The Auto Shot rotation is absurdly mana-effecient. The 1:1 rotation scales incredibly well with large amounts of haste. A 3:2 rotation does very well with moderate amounts of haste. A 1:1.5 rotation does very well with no haste. Therefore, based on the amount of haste we currently have, we should choose the best rotation for the job.
Now that we have an understanding of rotations, we need to actually produce them. People do this in many ways.
A purist might hand cast every special shot in his rotation.
A macro can be used to produce the rotation without hand casting shots.
An infinite number of intermediate steps exist between these, where a macro is used for some shots, but not for others.
I believe the purist approach is not practical for most hunters at this point, because the requirements of personally firing every shot in your rotation take away from other important concepts like situational awareness, as well as being very reliant on your consistent perfection. As such, we've established that we are going to use a macro, for at least some of our shots. What macro we will end up using depends greatly on which rotation we wish to accomplish.
Macros are created via 2 ways: /cast and /castsequence. /cast tells the server to cast exactly 1 spell. /castsequence tells the server to cast a series of spells. In order to function the way it does, /castsequence relies on communication back from the server to validate that the spell did in fact go off before firing the next one, and is therefore much weaker in situations where latency is a factor (and as has been shown, it doesn't take much latency for /castsequence to suffer).
If our goal is to produce a 3:2 rotation, we have a few options.
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot
/cast !Auo Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Both of these, in situations of moderate haste (20-30% haste) will produce the 3:2 rotation. The second macro, however, is superior to the first because of latency. While the first macro relies on communication from the server via /castsequence, the second does not, and thus fires the shots in the rotation faster.
Likewise, if we wish to produce a 1:1.5 rotation, we could use:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
handweave your arcane and multi shots
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
handweave your arcane and multi shots
(note: while this macro produced a 3:2 rotation up above, if you are firing specials in between it will actually produce a 1:1 ratio of Auto Shot to Steady Shot)
Here, we have even more options, depending on the extent to which you want to handweave your shots. I think we can rule out the first macro, as it relies entirely on /castsequence yet produces the same results as the second. We can also rule out the 3rd macro, since the same case exists with the 4th. Which one is superior? It's hard to say. I'll be covering this later.
I hope that clears up the difference between rotations and macros, and provides the groundwork for what I'm going to say now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In an unhasted situation, the highest DPS rotation available to us is a 1:1.5 rotation. If you disagree with this statement, please read the many pages of theory I have posted on the matter for an explanation.
Small amounts of haste will increase the DPS of a 1:1.5 rotation (we refer to that as "tightening" the rotation) but after a certain point haste gives less and less benefit.
As haste increases, a 1:1.5 rotation stops getting better while a 3:2 rotation continues to improve. Where they intersect is hard to tell, but a good reference point is that at 20% haste, a 3:2 rotation is superior to a 1:1.5 rotation.
At extreme amounts of haste, a 1:1 rotation is superior to all other rotations.
Taken to absurdity, at infinite haste a purely Auto Shot rotation is the best possible.
As such, we now have a guide for which rotation to use in which situation:
1) When you are not hasted, use a 1:1.5 rotation.
2) When you are moderately hasted (20-30%) use a 3:2 rotation.
3) When you are heavily hasted (50-60%) use a 1:1 rotation.
Please note, to this point I have only been discussing rotations.
How we achieve these rotations is a different matter.
With moderate haste, the macro
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
will produce a 3:2 rotation, and does so in the most efficient way possible. As an added bonus, in situations of high haste, this macro produces a 1:1 rotation! This means that we can use it in both situations, and don't have to worry about when "moderate haste" ends and "high haste" begins.
The final situation to address is that of no (or almost no- remember tightening) haste, when we want to produce a 1:1.5 rotation. Here we have a choice in macros, as was mentioned above.
Option #1:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
manually fire Arcane Shot and Multi Shot
Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency.
Cons: Manual firing of shots means it is vulnerable to all sorts of human inefficiencies.
Option #2:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot
Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies.
Cons: Use of /castsequence means that some of the shots (specifically the steady shots and half the auto shots) are vulnerable to the effects of latency.
Which of these macros is superior? It's hard to say. The top one relies on human reflexes and timing, the bottom relies on communication with the server.
Do you believe your personal timing and consistency is incredible, or your latency is terrible? Use option #1.
Do you believe your personal timing and consistency aren't that incredible, or you have low latency? Use option #2.
Do you have great timing AND great latency? Use option #2, and you won't have to rely on your timing.
Do you have not-so-great timing and bad latency? Weigh your consistent timing against your latency, and determine which is likely to be worse. Use the macro that makes up for whichever one is worse.
Conclusion: When determining which macro I will use to achieve a certain rotation, there are many factors to consider. Vasilii, for instance, is confident in his ability to handweave his shots, and as such performs the first macro I have described. (if this isn't the one you use, my apologies- however, I'm pretty sure it is) I'm not quite so confident in my ability to keep up a perfect timing of specials for 4+ hours straight, and as well I play with great latency (grats for living in California I suppose), so I use the second macro.
Final Note: If you are using a 3:2 rotation during periods of no haste, you are not maximizing your dps. If you are using a 1:1.5 rotation during periods of extreme haste, you are not maximizing your dps. More haste is better- as haste increases, your dps will increase IF you use the correct rotation for the amount of haste you are currently affected by. I hope this clears up a lot of the confusion going around at the moment.
Edit: Wow... that's a LOT longer than I initially thought it'd be. I fixed a couple places where I wasn't as clear as I could have been, but on the whole I hope after reading it you all understand what's going on, and are therefore able to discuss the different macros and rotations posted on this thread.
Last edited by SomeRandomIdiot : 03/21/08 at 12:54 PM.
Have you tried:
/castrandom Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot
?
/castrandom Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot
?
|
Originally Posted by Kamaa
Have you tried:
/castrandom Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot ? |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Tiberium
HASTE ITEMISATION AND WHY CHEEKY'S CAN BE DODGY
So I have found the two best Survival pieces in the game!!! Oh really and what may these be? [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] and [Cloak of Fiends] Yup go plug 1 or both of these items in Cheeky's for your current pre 2.4 set ups and you will find they increase your DPS rediculously. Especially when paired with a 3.0 weapon. So Vasilii I don't see you using either of these items on Armory even though Cheeky's is telling you to do so, why is that?. As you can see just blindly following Cheeky's for DPS is not only dangerous, it is quite plainly wrong when actually using the /cast Macro. Bottom line is go test on Boom for yourselves, you can't use Cheeky's for SV and a /cast macro |
Thanks for the analysis you have provided, this is what I'm talking about. I apologize if my previous comments were offensive but I still believe they were accurate.
I do not find your analysis of [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] or [Cloak of Fiends] to be accurate (assuming you are using 1:1.5 with 3.0 speed weapon). With my current gear, swapping the cloak yields a dps increase of 1 over [Vengeance Wrap]. The bindings drop my dps by 25 if I use them over [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
How do you figure they are the best survival items in the game?
Modeling A 1:1.5 Rotation in Cheekys
I'm going to post this because I believe this is a trap that a lot of people fall into which results in inaccurate gear analysis.
If you hit the 1:1.X Button in the shot rotations section, you will often not end up with a 1:1.5 rotation being modeled.
Why? Because the spreadsheet tends to avoid clipping and using a 1:1.5 over extended periods will result in some clipping. So the spreadsheet will have areas where you have:
Steady, Auto
Steady, Auto
This should never happen in a true 1:1.5 rotation.
The result is that you end up with a 1:1.3 or 1:1.4 rotation. Haste effects have more value for a 1:1.3 or 1:1.4 than a 1:1.5 (because there are more instances where you are using just Auto, Steady without weaving a 3rd shot on top) Thus resulting in the spreadsheet showing a higher dps contribution for haste items than actually exists.
Make sure under the "Settings & Results" Tab under "Haste Breakdown" You see it says 1:1.5 and not something else. Even if you see 1:1.5 its still possible to have steady, auto x2 in a row. I would recommend taking 5 minutes to hand input the rotation to ensure you are getting accurate numbers.
|
Originally Posted by Tiberium
3) The /cast Macro Option. Using the /cast Macro yields an 11.55% DPS increase OVER AND ABOVE Vasilii's perfectly executed 1:1.5 rotaion. Wow thats a bold statement isn't it?
|
-or-
that 3:2 > 1:1.5?
It appears you have done testing to confirm this, can you share your results?
I do in fact hand weave, but would change my opinion if i find something better
Edit: corrected the formatting
Last edited by Vasilii : 03/21/08 at 1:31 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Kamaa
Have you tried:
/castrandom Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot ? |
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency.
Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies.
I'm sure there's some limitation that prevents it, because it's so logical and obvious. But I'll try that tonight perhaps, if no badge farming opportunities come up. ;P
@ SomeRandom
Excellent, excellent post..Bravo!
|
Originally Posted by Kamaa
Have you tried:
/castrandom Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot ? |
|
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I have not- definitely an intriguing idea though... I'll give it a try tonight when I get off work (I can post on forums here, but actually playing WoW ain't gonna happen). I'm kinda wary of how it'd work, since it has no structure, but the potential is definitely there.
|
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot
This one works much better because there is less for the castrandom to choose from, but it still wasn't "perfect". I do think, due to latency, that this macro could be better for you guys than anything with castsequence in it. It would require a non BM hunter for more accurate results though. Best of luck. ;-)
|
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Final Note: If you are using a 3:2 rotation during periods of no haste, you are not maximizing your dps. If you are using a 1:1.5 rotation during periods of extreme haste, you are not maximizing your dps. More haste is better- as haste increases, your dps will increase IF you use the correct rotation for the amount of haste you are currently affected by. I hope this clears up a lot of the confusion going around at the moment. |
Do you recommend using 3:2 over 1:1 with just 1 haste effect such as Rapid Fire? Could I use spam the steadyshot button to accomplish this?
Vasilii, I'm not 100% sure where the dividing line is between 1:1 and 3:2. Fortunately, if you're using the macro I posted, it shouldn't matter- if the haste is enough where a 1:1 rotation is superior, it will produce a 1:1.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
First off, multishot is a dangerous shot to use in non-boss situations. I think we all know why, but it wasn't something I'd thought of before using it. I ended up doing a 3:2 rotation on trash, as it was the best rotation I could pull out without endangering the sheeps.
|
This is good news for those that use multishot since you no longer have to worry about switching rotations because of CC.
I have been a 0/20/41 user for a while, and I do like Readiness. However, with being able to now use multishot all the time, I plan to reevaluate a barrage build (and getting scatter shot back) once this change becomes live (waiting until then though in case they pull the change out). I will post my findings at that time.
|
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
@Whytefist: I hadn't meant those numbers to be anything more than justification for my previous statement that for me, the badge bow was superior DPS. I specifically stated in the post what gear I was using (since it's not the gear I currently wear... most of it is out of sunwell).
|
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/21/08 at 5:12 PM.
I have been using this macro for quite some time (1:1.5) :
Which, for me at least, does a perfect 1:1.5 cast rotation. No weaving needed (as long as you dont have to move or get interrupted). I love this macro.
I just found this "new" macro I was going to try out when I get hasted (drums, rapid fire, heroism..ect). Its made for BM Hunters, specifically because some of their macros have had issues with KC getting stuck.
The code looks like this:
And the description of how to set up the macro and how it works is found here:
3:2 Steady Macro DPS proof
We have already done BT/Hyjal for the week...so me being able to test this out wont happen for a little while (especially if Sunwell comes out on Tuesday). Has anyone had any experience with this kind of macro in relation to switching to it while hasted? Or any opinions regarding either of the macros?
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I just found this "new" macro I was going to try out when I get hasted (drums, rapid fire, heroism..ect). Its made for BM Hunters, specifically because some of their macros have had issues with KC getting stuck.
The code looks like this:
MACRO 1: #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() MACRO 2: /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
3:2 Steady Macro DPS proof
We have already done BT/Hyjal for the week...so me being able to test this out wont happen for a little while (especially if Sunwell comes out on Tuesday). Has anyone had any experience with this kind of macro in relation to switching to it while hasted? Or any opinions regarding either of the macros?
|
Originally Posted by Leighlu
Reading SomeRandom's post, I had a thought as well:
/cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency. Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies. I'm sure there's some limitation that prevents it, because it's so logical and obvious. But I'll try that tonight perhaps, if no badge farming opportunities come up. ;P @ SomeRandom Excellent, excellent post..Bravo! |
I also like the above macro since it does scale with haste. Unhasted, it does a 1:1.5. Under various haste effects, you will get extra auto-steadies between the other specials (or at least what I observed). However, I need to go back and recheck this when I have the chance, but doesn't this macro have the potential to cast multishot and arcane shot on successive auto-steadies, resulting in clipping?
Well I have many problems with the 1:1.5 rotation. I do not really get it....
Could anybody give me some tips how I can set up a proper 1:1.5 rotation?
Could anybody give me some tips how I can set up a proper 1:1.5 rotation?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
This is mostly, but not entirely, directed at SomeRandomIdiot:
You say that 20-30% haste is the sweet spot for the 3:2 rotation (why don't we just call this 1:2?). I realize that you are only giving ballpark figures, but are you including quiver haste in that 20-30%, and to what weapon speeds does your reasoning apply?
It seems in general that hunters fall into two categories:
Category A uses weapon speeds in the range of 2.6 - 2.8 and has serpent swiftness
Category B uses weapon speeds in the range of 2.9 - 3.1 and doesn't have serpent swiftness
Hunters in both categories may or may not have improved aspect of the hawk, drums of battle, haste potions, and static haste on gear, although Category A hunters seem to get more excited about these things.
Switching gears to talk about macros:
I want to talk about Option #3, which you discard at the beginning as being in some way made obsolete by Option #1.
Option #3:
/castsequence !auto shot, steady shot
Manually fire arcane and steady shot
Is this simply a case where my Option 3 has combined both the cons of options 1 and 2 with none of the pros? The timing of Arcane and Multi is susceptible to human reaction, and the initiation of half of the steadies is (possibly**) subject to the latency of the client receiving notice that auto shot has fired. I say possibly because it seems that the GCD of arcane/multi lasts longer than the latency of receiving auto shot confirmation before the next steady begins. So in essence, Option #3 may be the same as Option #1, but the castsequence guarantees that the human can't accidentally execute a 1:2 ("3:2"), or worse, a 0:1 (endless steady shot), by spamming the macro and forgetting to press Arcane or Multi at the right time. Instead, this sort of error will result in executing a 1:1.
I would also like to tack on 2 other Pros to Options #1 and #3. Firstly, when transitioning to high haste (ie Rapid Fire), the same macro can be used to execute 1:1, and Secondly, KC can be tied via separate macros to Arcane and Multi, adding them to the rotation with no penalty in timing, merely a penalty in mana. This doesn't seem to be possible with Option #2.
Also, a potential Con for Option #2: Wouldn't this macro be capable of the following:
Auto > Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto > Steady> Auto > Steady,
which places the Arcane and Multi too close together, pushing back more autos, and losing some efficiency relative to:
Auto > Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto > Steady,
which is the ideal 1:1.5?
You say that 20-30% haste is the sweet spot for the 3:2 rotation (why don't we just call this 1:2?). I realize that you are only giving ballpark figures, but are you including quiver haste in that 20-30%, and to what weapon speeds does your reasoning apply?
It seems in general that hunters fall into two categories:
Category A uses weapon speeds in the range of 2.6 - 2.8 and has serpent swiftness
Category B uses weapon speeds in the range of 2.9 - 3.1 and doesn't have serpent swiftness
Hunters in both categories may or may not have improved aspect of the hawk, drums of battle, haste potions, and static haste on gear, although Category A hunters seem to get more excited about these things.
Switching gears to talk about macros:
|
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Likewise, if we wish to produce a 1:1.5 rotation, we could use:
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot handweave your arcane and multi shots /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot handweave your arcane and multi shots (note: while this macro produced a 3:2 rotation up above, if you are firing specials in between it will actually produce a 1:1 ratio of Auto Shot to Steady Shot) Here, we have even more options, depending on the extent to which you want to handweave your shots. I think we can rule out the first macro, as it relies entirely on /castsequence yet produces the same results as the second. We can also rule out the 3rd macro, since the same case exists with the 4th. Which one is superior? It's hard to say. I'll be covering this later. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The final situation to address is that of no (or almost no- remember tightening) haste, when we want to produce a 1:1.5 rotation. Here we have a choice in macros, as was mentioned above. Option #1: /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot manually fire Arcane Shot and Multi Shot Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency. Cons: Manual firing of shots means it is vulnerable to all sorts of human inefficiencies. Option #2: /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies. Cons: Use of /castsequence means that some of the shots (specifically the steady shots and half the auto shots) are vulnerable to the effects of latency. Which of these macros is superior? It's hard to say. The top one relies on human reflexes and timing, the bottom relies on communication with the server. Do you believe your personal timing and consistency is incredible, or your latency is terrible? Use option #1. Do you believe your personal timing and consistency aren't that incredible, or you have low latency? Use option #2. Do you have great timing AND great latency? Use option #2, and you won't have to rely on your timing. Do you have not-so-great timing and bad latency? Weigh your consistent timing against your latency, and determine which is likely to be worse. Use the macro that makes up for whichever one is worse. |
Option #3:
/castsequence !auto shot, steady shot
Manually fire arcane and steady shot
Is this simply a case where my Option 3 has combined both the cons of options 1 and 2 with none of the pros? The timing of Arcane and Multi is susceptible to human reaction, and the initiation of half of the steadies is (possibly**) subject to the latency of the client receiving notice that auto shot has fired. I say possibly because it seems that the GCD of arcane/multi lasts longer than the latency of receiving auto shot confirmation before the next steady begins. So in essence, Option #3 may be the same as Option #1, but the castsequence guarantees that the human can't accidentally execute a 1:2 ("3:2"), or worse, a 0:1 (endless steady shot), by spamming the macro and forgetting to press Arcane or Multi at the right time. Instead, this sort of error will result in executing a 1:1.
I would also like to tack on 2 other Pros to Options #1 and #3. Firstly, when transitioning to high haste (ie Rapid Fire), the same macro can be used to execute 1:1, and Secondly, KC can be tied via separate macros to Arcane and Multi, adding them to the rotation with no penalty in timing, merely a penalty in mana. This doesn't seem to be possible with Option #2.
Also, a potential Con for Option #2: Wouldn't this macro be capable of the following:
Auto > Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto > Steady> Auto > Steady,
which places the Arcane and Multi too close together, pushing back more autos, and losing some efficiency relative to:
Auto > Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto > Steady,
which is the ideal 1:1.5?
Last edited by Gearknight : 03/21/08 at 5:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
Well I have many problems with the 1:1.5 rotation. I do not really get it....
Could anybody give me some tips how I can set up a proper 1:1.5 rotation? |
That should give you a solid enough understanding of shot rotations to be able to comprehend what we're discussing here.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
This is mostly, but not entirely, directed at SomeRandomIdiot:
You say that 20-30% haste is the sweet spot for the 3:2 rotation (why don't we just call this 1:2?). Are you including quiver haste in that 20-30%, and to what weapon speeds does this apply? It seems in general that hunters fall into two categories: Category A uses weapon speeds in the range of 2.6 - 2.8 and has serpent swiftness Category B uses weapon speeds in the range of 2.9 - 3.1 and doesn't have serpent swiftness Hunters in both categories may or may not have improved aspect of the hawk, drums of battle, haste potions, and static haste on gear, although Category A hunters seem to get more excited about these things. |
As far as weapon speed is concerned, I don't think it makes too much of a difference. All of my stuff is based off weapons of 3.0 speed, as those seem to be the most common in end game raids, but dropping down to even a 2.8 isn't going to make a huge difference. If you really want to deal with it, you can look at a faster weapon as just having more haste. In this case, a 2.7 speed weapon would be equivalent to a 3.0 speed weapon with 10% haste- you just don't get to take advantage of the increased damage that a 3.0 speed weapon combined with haste would give you.
I honestly don't know where the "sweet spot" is, but since haste comes in discrete amounts (i.e. you get 45% haste from Rapid Fire, 35% from Heroism, 20something% from DST, etc) you don't have to worry about the line at which point you swap over. If you are seriously hasted (I'd consider this anything but Drums or a small amount of haste gear) you want to use a 3:2 rotation, or a 1:1 rotation if you've reached the point where it becomes effective.
As for why we call it a 3:2 rotation, I have no clue...
@Leighlu: I've tried something similar to that macro, and had issues getting it to work- /cast and /castrandom don't seem to get along too well. If you could get it working, that'd be the ideal macro as far as I was concerned.
Edit: Dang, I'm a slow one today...
Last edited by SomeRandomIdiot : 03/21/08 at 5:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
There is a great thread explaining all about shot rotations here: [Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated
That should give you a solid enough understanding of shot rotations to be able to comprehend what we're discussing here. |
I totaly comprehend what you are discussing here but, I mess up the 1:1.5 shot rotation because for me it is impossible to weave in arcane & multi shot manually and I am looking for tips.
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
I totaly comprehend what you are discussing here but, I mess up the 1:1.5 shot rotation because for me it is impossible to weave in arcane & multi shot manually and I am looking for tips.
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/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot
is a good macro to start with. By pressing this macro, you will generate the following shot rotation (assuming no haste):
Auto -> Steady -> Arcane -> Auto -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Multi -> Auto -> Steady -> Repeat
which is what we refer to as a 1:1.5 rotation. All that's saying is that there are 1.5 specials (Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, and Multishot) for every 1 Auto Shot.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
I have been using this macro for quite some time (1:1.5) :
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() I just found this "new" macro I was going to try out when I get hasted (drums, rapid fire, heroism..ect). Its made for BM Hunters, specifically because some of their macros have had issues with KC getting stuck. The code looks like this: MACRO 1: #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() MACRO 2: /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot 3:2 Steady Macro DPS proof We have already done BT/Hyjal for the week...so me being able to test this out wont happen for a little while (especially if Sunwell comes out on Tuesday). Has anyone had any experience with this kind of macro in relation to switching to it while hasted? Or any opinions regarding either of the macros? |
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Everytime I spam the macro it just spams autoshot. Any idea why?
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#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomRightButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
spamming that just uses auto shot. Although due to text size, the MultiBot... part does wraparound
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomRightButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
spamming that just uses auto shot. Although due to text size, the MultiBot... part does wraparound
I gotta ask... do you actually have the second macro at that button?
I had it set to left, and the placement was right. Still, steadies should be fired off, non?
Ok, I'm slow. For some reason they don't fire off unless you add the 2nd macro. That is strange.
Ok, I'm slow. For some reason they don't fire off unless you add the 2nd macro. That is strange.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I had it set to left, and the placement was right. Still, steadies should be fired off, non?
Ok, I'm slow. For some reason they don't fire off unless you add the 2nd macro. That is strange. |
Essentially, there are 3 macros:
The first is the 1:1.5 macro which will auto weave arcane shot/multi shot for you (as well as cast LB if you have a WS, and do KC).
The second one is a 3:2 (3 steady shots for every 2 Auto Shots) macro that you would use when you are at a moderate haste level (above drums).
The third macro works with the 2nd macro to make it so you can still use Kill Command while hasted, as it will not get stuck (which is a common bug right now for BM Hunters using this macro). This macro has to be in a specific location (as mention in the guide I linked in the initial post). If you dont have this macro in the right place, than it obviously wont work correctly.
Ok, so why is this in the SV thread? And I only see two macros?
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Ok, so why is this in the SV thread? And I only see two macros?
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Why did I post it in this SV thread? Did you even read my post...or any of this thread?
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Vasilii, I'm not 100% sure where the dividing line is between 1:1 and 3:2. Fortunately, if you're using the macro I posted, it shouldn't matter- if the haste is enough where a 1:1 rotation is superior, it will produce a 1:1.
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/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast Arcane Shot
Edit: I realize this is what you probably meant, SomeRandomIdiot; I just wanted to clarify for everybody else that hasn't tried the macro.
For me, a macro that automatically ramps up or down appropriately under haste is worth a lot in a raid. It allows me to focus on correct targeting, positioning, etc without having to worry a lot about my rotation. While I manually weaved my rotation for a long time before and after TBC, in my experience a no-think macro allows me to concentrate on the things that should be important to playing well, not split-second timing.
Eureka!!! The penny is dropping but hasn't reached the floor yet!!!
The dramatics are so that you and Vasilii carry on doing your good work under the correct fundamental pretext..... A 3:2 rotation for a Survival Hunter doesn't exist. Its 2:1
By George he's got it!!! I can't believe you've actually written it black and white and still call it a 3:2??? There is only you and Vasilii who calls Auto -> Steady -> Steady a 3:2 rotation. For the love of cookies please let us all know where you got this from because its leading to endless confusion.
We don't have an understanding as youv'e just confused everyone, substitute 2:1 for 3:2 and what you say may or may not be true, it changes for every player based on many variables.
Please please please look at what you have written! ... why? change to 2:1
2:1 etc. etc. etc.
BOTTOM LINE
The 3:2 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady
This is what BM hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
The 2:1 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady
This is what Survival or Marksman hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Aside from the 3:2 reference this is where you and I part company. Lets use an example of 100 shots.... using the following macro
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Unhasted we get 66 Steady Shots and 33 Auto Shots. Thats 2:1 for those not paying attention.
Now lets add Arcanes and Multis into that same 100 shots (Using Quiggyb for ref) and we get 43 Steady Shots 35 Auto Shots 13 Arcane Shots and 9 Multis.
So why the hell would we want to cost ourselves 10% damage on the 23 missing Steady Shots??? assuming of course we have 4 X T6 bonus.
We will be able to when you stop using the BM 3:2 rotation.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Tiberium, I'm not sure what all the theatrics were for, but I'm going to partially agree with you and partially disagree with you.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Rotation Example #4: 3:2 (I'm still not sure why it's called 3:2... wouldn't that mean 3 Auto Shots to every 2 Specials?)
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Steady |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
A 3:2 rotation does very well with moderate amounts of haste. A 1:1.5 rotation does very well with no haste. Therefore, based on the amount of haste we currently have, we should choose the best rotation for the job.
Now that we have an understanding of rotations |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
If our goal is to produce a 3:2 rotation, we have a few options.
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Both of these, in situations of moderate haste (20-30% haste) will produce the 3:2 rotation.
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BOTTOM LINE
The 3:2 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady
This is what BM hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
The 2:1 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady
This is what Survival or Marksman hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Final Note: If you are using a 3:2 rotation during periods of no haste, you are not maximizing your dps.
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/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Unhasted we get 66 Steady Shots and 33 Auto Shots. Thats 2:1 for those not paying attention.
Now lets add Arcanes and Multis into that same 100 shots (Using Quiggyb for ref) and we get 43 Steady Shots 35 Auto Shots 13 Arcane Shots and 9 Multis.
So why the hell would we want to cost ourselves 10% damage on the 23 missing Steady Shots??? assuming of course we have 4 X T6 bonus.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I hope after reading it you all understand what's going on, and are therefore able to discuss the different macros and rotations posted on this thread.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I had a good chance tonight to test the new macro combo, and this is what I saw:
Using the macro I provided above, (which is the BM 3:2 macro), when I get Heroism, it does the standard 3:2 rotation...which is
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady (meaning 3 steady shots for every 2 auto shots)
However, when you get MORE Haste than that (for example, if you add in a haste pot, drums or rapid fire), than it automatically switches to a 1:1 rotation. I will also go on to say that it never got stuck on KC, and the pet continued to do LB just fine.
The only time I ever saw my rotation do a 2:1 (2 Steady Shots for 1 Auto) was when I used the "haste" macro when I was not hasted. At THAT point, and only that point, did it drop to a 2:1 rotation. And using that rotation (2:1) seemed to drop my DPS compared to switching back to my normal 1:1.5 (which includes Multi/Arcane), that I use when I am non-hasted. However, I am going to be doing some long trm testing tomorrow in Blasted Lands comparing the 2 rotations (Blasted Lands over Dr. Boom since the bombs cause extra DPS when using Multi).
That was just my observation from using it for a full Naxx clear tonight (yes, Naxx!).
The real question comes down to, is Arcane or Multi > Steady? If your Steady Shots do more damage than either Arcane Shot or Multi Shot, than I would assume going to a 2:1 (2 steadys for 1 auto) would be the obvious choice. I also have points in Barrage...so well see what kind of difference that makes also.
Using the macro I provided above, (which is the BM 3:2 macro), when I get Heroism, it does the standard 3:2 rotation...which is
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady (meaning 3 steady shots for every 2 auto shots)
However, when you get MORE Haste than that (for example, if you add in a haste pot, drums or rapid fire), than it automatically switches to a 1:1 rotation. I will also go on to say that it never got stuck on KC, and the pet continued to do LB just fine.
The only time I ever saw my rotation do a 2:1 (2 Steady Shots for 1 Auto) was when I used the "haste" macro when I was not hasted. At THAT point, and only that point, did it drop to a 2:1 rotation. And using that rotation (2:1) seemed to drop my DPS compared to switching back to my normal 1:1.5 (which includes Multi/Arcane), that I use when I am non-hasted. However, I am going to be doing some long trm testing tomorrow in Blasted Lands comparing the 2 rotations (Blasted Lands over Dr. Boom since the bombs cause extra DPS when using Multi).
That was just my observation from using it for a full Naxx clear tonight (yes, Naxx!).
The real question comes down to, is Arcane or Multi > Steady? If your Steady Shots do more damage than either Arcane Shot or Multi Shot, than I would assume going to a 2:1 (2 steadys for 1 auto) would be the obvious choice. I also have points in Barrage...so well see what kind of difference that makes also.
Last edited by Sore82 : 03/23/08 at 3:42 AM.
Whoa! Stop right there before you add further to the confusion.
YES! it is indeed the BM 3:2 macro
BUT! it is more to the point the Survival 2:1 macro, so lets refer to it as the 2:1 Survival Macro please and not the BM 3:2 macro. This is if you hadn't noticed the Survival thread.
Essentially the 1st part of the 2 part macro you posted is exactlty the same as we are talking about ie
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Indeed it does, this is the 2:1 macro working as intended, once we reach 20% haste it moves to exactly the same rotation as the BM guys get unhasted Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady, which is fine and dandy.
Again correct, obviously for us to reach 1:1 with a 3.0 weapon we are talking substantial amounts of haste which is why Kurkis was seeing such high DPS by stacking haste for as long as humaly possible.
Again, let us not use yet another different name, refer to the macro as the 2:1. Indeed this is the basis of everything posted with reguards the Survival 2:1 Macro that has gone before, unhasted AND in general use it provides us with 66 Steady Shots for every 33 Autos, ie a 2:1 Rotation.
This again is a very valid point and will vary according to gear levels. With the T6 +10% to steady shot this is a no brainer.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Using the macro I provided above, (which is the BM 3:2 macro),
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BUT! it is more to the point the Survival 2:1 macro, so lets refer to it as the 2:1 Survival Macro please and not the BM 3:2 macro. This is if you hadn't noticed the Survival thread.
Essentially the 1st part of the 2 part macro you posted is exactlty the same as we are talking about ie
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
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Originally Posted by Sore82
when I get Heroism, it does the standard 3:2 rotation...which is
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady (meaning 3 steady shots for every 2 auto shots) |
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Originally Posted by Sore82
However, when you get MORE Haste than that (for example, if you add in a haste pot, drums or rapid fire), than it automatically switches to a 1:1 rotation.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
The only time I ever saw my rotation do a 2:1 (2 Steady Shots for 1 Auto) was when I used the "haste" macro when I was not hasted.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
The real question comes down to, is Arcane or Multi > Steady? If your Steady Shots do more damage than either Arcane Shot or Multi Shot, than I would assume going to a 2:1 (2 steadys for 1 auto) would be the obvious choice. I also have points in Barrage...so well see what kind of difference that makes also.
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Whoa! Stop right there before you add further to the confusion.
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I am testing today to see the difference between a non hasted 2:1 macro (which is the exact same macro as the BM 3:2) and 1:1.5. I have 4piece T6 so I will get that bonus. My initial concern with the 2:1 non-hasted rotation is that it has a very high tendency to clip you auto-shots, as well as get "stuck" casting steady over and over and over again. SO I will have to mess around with the macro, and will probably have to switch it to a /castsequence instead of a /cast.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
You only see two macros? In that whole block of text you quoted from me, you only see two macros?
Why did I post it in this SV thread? Did you even read my post...or any of this thread? |
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I did not include your original macro, as that one makes sense. But when I went to the thread discussing your two new ones he was talking about how this is purely a BM (bow speed 2.9 even) macro.
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Reread the post again, I stated that very clearly.
With respect to "are arcanes and multi's worth it?" - Obviously with +10% to steady the answer is no because your steadys will be doing as much or more than your arcanes. You only get one special per GCD so all you are doing is trading a steady for some other special. For a hunter in hyjal / bt who is close to but not quite at 4/5 T6 your arcanes will hit for 100 more dmg non-crit and 220 or so more dmg crit. This is at the cost of +100 mana and over the course of a 6 min fight represents something like a 25dps upgrade.
Quick math, someone corect me if I screw something up. Rounding those numbers a little and assuming an ~50% crit rate Id get 300 extra dmg every 2 arcanes. If I shoot an arcane every 6 seconds then thats 60 arcanes in 360 seconds = 9000 extra dmg for 6000 extra mana = 25 dps.
Seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to me. Why wouldnt I just turn on kill command instead? If I had that kind of mana to spare I'd drop talents like TotH first and go deeper into the marks tree.
I still have trouble with the various macros chaining a few (3ish) steadys in a row from time to time. Not sure if this will change with a 3.0 spd weapon but Im hopeing it does. Trying to use KC makes this situation worse, even with the /click macro. In one test against the ghosts in DM North I did 78 steadys and 29 autos in 2 min. My latency as reported by the game is 60ms and I have a 2.9spd bow. That was unhasted btw. Hasted the macros seem to work fine. Its just when steady and auto land very near each other that that this happens. I can see where a little extra lag would prevent it as the server would not get the steady completed for a few hundred extra millis allowing the auto to fire. Maybe I need to hold up on the spamming when they are getting close like that?
Quick math, someone corect me if I screw something up. Rounding those numbers a little and assuming an ~50% crit rate Id get 300 extra dmg every 2 arcanes. If I shoot an arcane every 6 seconds then thats 60 arcanes in 360 seconds = 9000 extra dmg for 6000 extra mana = 25 dps.
Seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to me. Why wouldnt I just turn on kill command instead? If I had that kind of mana to spare I'd drop talents like TotH first and go deeper into the marks tree.
I still have trouble with the various macros chaining a few (3ish) steadys in a row from time to time. Not sure if this will change with a 3.0 spd weapon but Im hopeing it does. Trying to use KC makes this situation worse, even with the /click macro. In one test against the ghosts in DM North I did 78 steadys and 29 autos in 2 min. My latency as reported by the game is 60ms and I have a 2.9spd bow. That was unhasted btw. Hasted the macros seem to work fine. Its just when steady and auto land very near each other that that this happens. I can see where a little extra lag would prevent it as the server would not get the steady completed for a few hundred extra millis allowing the auto to fire. Maybe I need to hold up on the spamming when they are getting close like that?
Ok my testing is done, and these are the results I came up with. I did 10 full mana bar rotations for each macro test, on the same mob (Servent of Razelikh). I never used any +Haste effects or was wearing any items that would randomly increase my stats. I used my 4piece T6 for both tests and I am currently speced 0/25/36:
Test #1
Macro Used (1:1.5):
Results:
1) 1256
2) 1258
3) 1354
4) 1314
5) 1463
6) 1310
7) 1192
8) 1292
9) 1349
10) 1403
-----------------------
Average DPS = 1319.1
Test #2
Macro Used (2:1):
Results:
1) 1251
2) 1127
3) 1123
4) 1205
5) 1230
6) 1149
7) 1259
8) 1189
9) 1234
10) 1208
-----------------------
Average DPS = 1197.5
My thoughts:
This 2:1 macro has several issues. The first being that it has a HUGE tendency to get "stuck" casting Steady Shot over and over again without letting Auto Shot shoot off. Several times during the test of the 2:1 macro, I would shoot off 3-5 steady shots BEFORE the Auto Shot would finally take off. Near the end, I was actuaily trying to lift up on my macro button to try and make the Auto Shot fire off, but doing that during a boss fight is not piratical. Another issue I saw with the 2:1 was that when its not causing Auto Shot not to shoo off, its clipping the Auto Shot most of the time. You dont see this kind of clipping with a 1:1.5 rotation.
I tried, somewhere in the middle, to use a /castsequence macro instead of the other one. Using this I saw a dramatic increase in the clipping of the Auto Shots and what seems like a much slower reaction time for Steady Shots to go off. The ONLY advantage the /castsequence had over the one I used was that it never had a problem with having Auto Shot get "stuck".
I think in theory, the 2:1 could work well for us. But the macro has some serious issues with it. I think we would need at least some passive haste to prevent the clipping and to tighten up the rotation. However, and more importantly, I dont see this macro being very piratical (at least fore me) with it causing Auto Shot to get stuck and not fire when its supposed to.
Let me also state, that I tried several different variations of the 2:1 macro to try and get to the root of the problem of Auto Shot getting stuck (several of which I did not count in my "Results" section because either they did not work, or I only used a partial mana bar). If I took out the Kill Command line, it would still get hung up. It was only after I removed BOTH the Kill Command line and the Lightning Breath (when I removed the line, I just turned on my pets auto attack for LB) line that it seemed to not have as much issues. This is not to say it still did not clip, or get hung up on Auto Shot every now and then, but it seemed to happen less.
DISCLAIMER:
These results are my own from personal testing. I am in no way stating one rotation is better than the other, but rather what I found to be working best for myself. Take the results with a grain of salt, as for different people, these results will obviously be different. I did not WWS each result or screenshot every time one of my tests was done. I used 2 DPS meters (SWStats and Recount) at the same time to monitor my DPS. When My mana got down to 5%, I stopped DPS and wrote down the numbers. At no point did the two meters DPS differ from each other, so there was no reason to average out the difference between them.
Test #1
Macro Used (1:1.5):
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
1) 1256
2) 1258
3) 1354
4) 1314
5) 1463
6) 1310
7) 1192
8) 1292
9) 1349
10) 1403
-----------------------
Average DPS = 1319.1
Test #2
Macro Used (2:1):
#showtooltip Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton2 /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() with /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
1) 1251
2) 1127
3) 1123
4) 1205
5) 1230
6) 1149
7) 1259
8) 1189
9) 1234
10) 1208
-----------------------
Average DPS = 1197.5
My thoughts:
This 2:1 macro has several issues. The first being that it has a HUGE tendency to get "stuck" casting Steady Shot over and over again without letting Auto Shot shoot off. Several times during the test of the 2:1 macro, I would shoot off 3-5 steady shots BEFORE the Auto Shot would finally take off. Near the end, I was actuaily trying to lift up on my macro button to try and make the Auto Shot fire off, but doing that during a boss fight is not piratical. Another issue I saw with the 2:1 was that when its not causing Auto Shot not to shoo off, its clipping the Auto Shot most of the time. You dont see this kind of clipping with a 1:1.5 rotation.
I tried, somewhere in the middle, to use a /castsequence macro instead of the other one. Using this I saw a dramatic increase in the clipping of the Auto Shots and what seems like a much slower reaction time for Steady Shots to go off. The ONLY advantage the /castsequence had over the one I used was that it never had a problem with having Auto Shot get "stuck".
I think in theory, the 2:1 could work well for us. But the macro has some serious issues with it. I think we would need at least some passive haste to prevent the clipping and to tighten up the rotation. However, and more importantly, I dont see this macro being very piratical (at least fore me) with it causing Auto Shot to get stuck and not fire when its supposed to.
Let me also state, that I tried several different variations of the 2:1 macro to try and get to the root of the problem of Auto Shot getting stuck (several of which I did not count in my "Results" section because either they did not work, or I only used a partial mana bar). If I took out the Kill Command line, it would still get hung up. It was only after I removed BOTH the Kill Command line and the Lightning Breath (when I removed the line, I just turned on my pets auto attack for LB) line that it seemed to not have as much issues. This is not to say it still did not clip, or get hung up on Auto Shot every now and then, but it seemed to happen less.
DISCLAIMER:
These results are my own from personal testing. I am in no way stating one rotation is better than the other, but rather what I found to be working best for myself. Take the results with a grain of salt, as for different people, these results will obviously be different. I did not WWS each result or screenshot every time one of my tests was done. I used 2 DPS meters (SWStats and Recount) at the same time to monitor my DPS. When My mana got down to 5%, I stopped DPS and wrote down the numbers. At no point did the two meters DPS differ from each other, so there was no reason to average out the difference between them.
I recommend just using recount to capture the shot counts and time, making a spreadsheeet and assigning dmg values to each shot. That way you dont have to worry about high crit rates vs low crit rates or things that proc stats. Lot less test samples required too. More shots in the same period produces more dps. Trading shots of one kind for another chanegs dps in a consistent way. Since you get some scaling on crit dmg its probably worth capturring a crit and non-crit value seprately.
I agree on the macro getting stuck on steady. Its horrible for me with kill command, annoying without it. I have tried every possible variaton of these things for hours and for me (2.9 spd weapon / 60ms latency) there isnt much I can do about it. Passive haste would fix it. 5% or so seems to do the trick.
I agree on the macro getting stuck on steady. Its horrible for me with kill command, annoying without it. I have tried every possible variaton of these things for hours and for me (2.9 spd weapon / 60ms latency) there isnt much I can do about it. Passive haste would fix it. 5% or so seems to do the trick.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
I agree on the macro getting stuck on steady. Its horrible for me with kill command, annoying without it. I have tried every possible variaton of these things for hours and for me (2.9 spd weapon / 60ms latency) there isnt much I can do about it. Passive haste would fix it. 5% or so seems to do the trick.
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As for adding some passive haste, the question comes back into play...is it worth it? For whatever reason, Blizzard gave a HUGE iLvl to +Haste on items, which then takes away from other stats like AP or Agility. Sunwell has a lot of options for +Haste gear, but there are also a lot of options for gear with more AP, Agility or Armor Pen on them. Personally, at this point, im not a huge fan of passive haste.
Sore82, those are some pretty interesting findings, but I wonder if you clouded the data (I understand there's the disclaimer, not really accusing you of trying to shoot down Tiberium). From what I've gathered from these last few sets of posts with the 1:1.5 and the 2:1, we'd want to have both macros that you used to test. The 1:1.5 performs best in a hasteless environment (aside from tightening the rotation), whereas the 2:1 macro becomes better once you pass a certain haste threshold, and also scales with increasing haste. Ideally, (i.e., for maximum dps in a raid situation) you'd be mashing the first (1:1.5 macro) until you get enough haste effects (DST, heroism, cooldowns/consumables), at which point you'd want to switch to the 2:1 macro, which you then mash until your haste effects have expired and you've dropped back down to your hasteless state. Then begin using the 1:1.5 macro again until another haste effect appears?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be the optimal situation, since it doesn't seem to be too beneficial to stack enough passive haste to be above the 2:1 threshold at all times.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be the optimal situation, since it doesn't seem to be too beneficial to stack enough passive haste to be above the 2:1 threshold at all times.
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Originally Posted by EvilDeathCrab
Sore82, those are some pretty interesting findings, but I wonder if you clouded the data (I understand there's the disclaimer, not really accusing you of trying to shoot down Tiberium). From what I've gathered from these last few sets of posts with the 1:1.5 and the 2:1, we'd want to have both macros that you used to test. The 1:1.5 performs best in a hasteless environment (aside from tightening the rotation), whereas the 2:1 macro becomes better once you pass a certain haste threshold, and also scales with increasing haste. Ideally, (i.e., for maximum dps in a raid situation) you'd be mashing the first (1:1.5 macro) until you get enough haste effects (DST, heroism, cooldowns/consumables), at which point you'd want to switch to the 2:1 macro, which you then mash until your haste effects have expired and you've dropped back down to your hasteless state. Then begin using the 1:1.5 macro again until another haste effect appears?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be the optimal situation, since it doesn't seem to be too beneficial to stack enough passive haste to be above the 2:1 threshold at all times. |
As of right now, my standard non-hasted rotation is the 1:1.5 I posted. When I become hasted above drums (heroism, rapid fire, haste pot) then I will use the 2 part 2:1 macro (which will turn into the 1:1 macro if hasted enough). The point of my test was to show that, at least for me, trying to do a 2:1 rotation while not hasted is not as beneficial than a 1:1.5.
Tiberium-
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it. I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes:
Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat
Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact.
Assuming no haste, with a 3.0 speed bow modified only with a 15% quiver (2.55 seconds per Auto Shot) and a .2s latency
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot Starts
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.4 Auto Shot Fires
3.6 Steady Shot Starts
5.1 Steady Shot Fires
5.3 Steady Shot Starts
6.8 Steady Shot Fires
6.8 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.8 seconds. Going off my damage from last week's raid (Wow Web Stats
Steady Shot Average = 999 Crit Average = 2318
Auto Shot Average = 897 Crit Average = 2140
Arcane Shot Average = 909 Crit Average = 2198
I had a 43% Crit rate, so ((999x.47)+(2318x.43)x4 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 = (469 + 997)x4 + (421 + 920)x2 = 8546 damage in 6.8 seconds = 1256 DPS
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot Starts
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
With the 1:1.5 rotation, you just fired 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, and an Arcane Shot in 5.0 seconds.
((999x.47)+(2318x.43))x2 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 + ((909x.47)+(2198x.43))x1 =
(469 + 997)x2 + (421 + 920)x2 + (427 + 945) = 2932 + 2682 + 1372 = 6986 damage in 5.0 seconds = 1397 DPS
These numbers include the 4/5 T6 bonus, as well as take into account any vagaries that might be introduced by a small sample size, since 733 Auto Shots, 551 Steady Shots, and 288 Arcane Shots should average out pretty well.
1256 vs 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it. I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes:
Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat
Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact.
Assuming no haste, with a 3.0 speed bow modified only with a 15% quiver (2.55 seconds per Auto Shot) and a .2s latency
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot Starts
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.4 Auto Shot Fires
3.6 Steady Shot Starts
5.1 Steady Shot Fires
5.3 Steady Shot Starts
6.8 Steady Shot Fires
6.8 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.8 seconds. Going off my damage from last week's raid (Wow Web Stats
Steady Shot Average = 999 Crit Average = 2318
Auto Shot Average = 897 Crit Average = 2140
Arcane Shot Average = 909 Crit Average = 2198
I had a 43% Crit rate, so ((999x.47)+(2318x.43)x4 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 = (469 + 997)x4 + (421 + 920)x2 = 8546 damage in 6.8 seconds = 1256 DPS
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot Starts
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
With the 1:1.5 rotation, you just fired 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, and an Arcane Shot in 5.0 seconds.
((999x.47)+(2318x.43))x2 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 + ((909x.47)+(2198x.43))x1 =
(469 + 997)x2 + (421 + 920)x2 + (427 + 945) = 2932 + 2682 + 1372 = 6986 damage in 5.0 seconds = 1397 DPS
These numbers include the 4/5 T6 bonus, as well as take into account any vagaries that might be introduced by a small sample size, since 733 Auto Shots, 551 Steady Shots, and 288 Arcane Shots should average out pretty well.
1256 vs 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.
For Wind Serpents to people typically train bite and lightning breath or just lb?
I'm pretty sure they just train LB, since you'd rather maximize your GCDs to do the most damage, since you basically have unlimited focus by the time a wind serpent becomes useful.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
For Wind Serpents to people typically train bite and lightning breath or just lb?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
After speccing survival a few weeks ago, and having a consistent 250 latency, manual 1:1.5 has been my method of choice. I do make mistakes sometimes, but ultimately it's better than any /castsequence can ever do. However I would love to have a "/cast auto /cast steady" macro that I can fall back on. This macro requires no human imput and is cheaper on mana. Whether or not it does higher dps is currently under debate (although in my experience, manual 1:1.5 is better, yet more mana). This macro would be very useful while learning Sunwell encounters.
In theory, the "/cast /cast" macro is great. It will do [auto - steady - steady - auto - steady - steady] when not hasted. Decent dps, great mana efficiency compared to multi and arcane. It will then accommodate extra haste by becoming the BM-style "3steadies:2autos" rotation, and eventually simply perform a 1:1 rotation.
The last two pages of this thread has been discussing the benefits and drawbacks of these rotations and macros. Yet people are not mentioning the main problem with the "/cast /cast" macro:
auto - steady - steady - auto - steady - steady - ...until all of a sudden... - auto - steady - steady - STEADY - auto - ...back to normal... - auto - steady - steady - STEADY - STEADY - auto - ...back to normal....
The capitalized STEADY's should not occur, the autoshot should be firing at that time. The extra steadys sometimes chain upwards of 5 times in a row. The effect on dps is high, as well as mana/damage. And this isnt even when using LightningBreath/KillCommand. I'm under the impression it is worse when using these.
Yes, I know this is a well known problem. It has been mentioned numerous times in many threads. But what I dont see mentioned is exactly why this happens. More importantly, how can we stop it from happening? I would love to use this macro, even if simply to test it's damage against a manual 1:1.5, but this problem always persists.
I know varying haste amounts can reduce or stop this macro error. However, how does latency, weapon speed, ingame fps, etc, effect this? Does anyone know EXACTLY why, using that macro, an autoshot is skipped in the rotation? Is it because:
Do we know exactly how the new spell queues work? If your latency is 0.4 seconds and you press your steadyshot button when there is 0.35 seconds left on steadyshot, a new steadyshot will start to cast 0.05 seconds after the first one fires, right? Now where does the autoshot fit into this? What happens if the autoshot was due to fire inside that 0.05 second time period. Will it fire? What if it was due to fire before that time period, but it had not finished the "0.5 autoshot cast" yet. EG, it was due to fire within 0.05 and 0.55 seconds before the first steadyshot finished. Will it fire?
What is causing this?!
I am going insane.
All this talk of 1:1.5 vs /cast /cast is great and all, but whats the point if we cannot reliably produce /cast /cast ingame?
In theory, the "/cast /cast" macro is great. It will do [auto - steady - steady - auto - steady - steady] when not hasted. Decent dps, great mana efficiency compared to multi and arcane. It will then accommodate extra haste by becoming the BM-style "3steadies:2autos" rotation, and eventually simply perform a 1:1 rotation.
The last two pages of this thread has been discussing the benefits and drawbacks of these rotations and macros. Yet people are not mentioning the main problem with the "/cast /cast" macro:
auto - steady - steady - auto - steady - steady - ...until all of a sudden... - auto - steady - steady - STEADY - auto - ...back to normal... - auto - steady - steady - STEADY - STEADY - auto - ...back to normal....
The capitalized STEADY's should not occur, the autoshot should be firing at that time. The extra steadys sometimes chain upwards of 5 times in a row. The effect on dps is high, as well as mana/damage. And this isnt even when using LightningBreath/KillCommand. I'm under the impression it is worse when using these.
Yes, I know this is a well known problem. It has been mentioned numerous times in many threads. But what I dont see mentioned is exactly why this happens. More importantly, how can we stop it from happening? I would love to use this macro, even if simply to test it's damage against a manual 1:1.5, but this problem always persists.
I know varying haste amounts can reduce or stop this macro error. However, how does latency, weapon speed, ingame fps, etc, effect this? Does anyone know EXACTLY why, using that macro, an autoshot is skipped in the rotation? Is it because:
Do we know exactly how the new spell queues work? If your latency is 0.4 seconds and you press your steadyshot button when there is 0.35 seconds left on steadyshot, a new steadyshot will start to cast 0.05 seconds after the first one fires, right? Now where does the autoshot fit into this? What happens if the autoshot was due to fire inside that 0.05 second time period. Will it fire? What if it was due to fire before that time period, but it had not finished the "0.5 autoshot cast" yet. EG, it was due to fire within 0.05 and 0.55 seconds before the first steadyshot finished. Will it fire?
What is causing this?!
I am going insane.
All this talk of 1:1.5 vs /cast /cast is great and all, but whats the point if we cannot reliably produce /cast /cast ingame?
Last edited by Intermission : 03/24/08 at 8:36 AM.
Well, I tried the two different rotation in two seperate weeks in Hyjal+BT.
I found that the 1:1.5 rotation was giving me a significant increase in dps. On the order of around 200+ extra dps. I do have the 4 piece T6 set, along with the DST and I chug haste pots. However, using the 1:1.5 macro as stated above while hasted seemed to put me into a 1:1 ratio which was a great benefit in my opinion.
I just can't see the 10% bonus to steady shot benefiting us as much as BM hunters when you are not hasted.
I found that the 1:1.5 rotation was giving me a significant increase in dps. On the order of around 200+ extra dps. I do have the 4 piece T6 set, along with the DST and I chug haste pots. However, using the 1:1.5 macro as stated above while hasted seemed to put me into a 1:1 ratio which was a great benefit in my opinion.
I just can't see the 10% bonus to steady shot benefiting us as much as BM hunters when you are not hasted.
Oh Brother
Aha, I see. Well I've got news for you, nobody calls a Rotation that goes Auto -> Steady -> Steady 3:2 except you and Vasilii. You've even written yourself you have no idea why you call it a 3:2 Rotation here
and here
Yes of course it would and that is exactly the point.
The 3:2 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady
Unhasted this is what BM hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
The 2:1 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady
Unhasted this is what Survival or Marksman hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Wrong
It came about because unhasted BM hunters get a 3:2 rotation when using the /cast macro. Logically BM hunters call a 3:2 rotation, erm well a 3:2 rotation.
Unhasted Survival Hunters get a 2:1 rotation when using the /cast macro. Logically SV hunters call a 2:1 rotation, erm well a 2:1 rotation. Well apart from you and Vasilii who still want to call it 3:2.
By your logic we should all toddle off to the to the 128 page long BM thread and say. "Oi you're doing it all wrong! You should be calling your 3:2 Rotation 1:1 because this is what you get when your rotation is hasted???
This is where the fun starts. Firstly after 2.3.2 everybody thought that using the /cast macro universally was the best thing since sliced bread, not just me. Users included CSM, Monco, Trohck and Kurkis (Still the highest DPS WWS poster on this thread) to name but a few. But I suppose they are all wrong as well. You of course disagreed with using 2:1 even back then. One thing that puzzles me no end, when you discussed Kurkis's DPS here http://elitistjerks.com/616892-post944.html you used to call the 2:1 rotation, well 2:1, seamed like a logical thing to do back then so why did you decide to change to our survival rotation to 3:2?
You may ask why I'm even bothered what the hell you call the Auto -> Steady -> Steady rotation. Well the answer is quite simple. People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1.
So lets look at your Incoorect DPS claims for your unhasted rotations and you will see where you are going wrong. CSM advised us of the following:-
When actually modelling the 3:2 BM rotation Cheeky has told us
So Now the 2:1 Rotation looks like this.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.0 Steady Shot Starts
1.5 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
3.0 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.0 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
4.5 Steady Shot Fires
4.5 Steady Shot Starts
6.0 Steady Shot Fires
6.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.0 seconds.
OH well look ye there then you actually did 8546 damage in 6.0 seconds meaning your DPS using 2:1 is 1424
Compare this with the latency susceptible /castsquence DPS of 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Tiberium-
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it. |
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
As for why we call it a 3:2 rotation, I have no clue...
|
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Rotation Example #4: 3:2 (I'm still not sure why it's called 3:2... wouldn't that mean 3 Auto Shots to every 2 Specials?)
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Steady |
The 3:2 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady
Unhasted this is what BM hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
The 2:1 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady
Unhasted this is what Survival or Marksman hunters get when using
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes:
Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat |
It came about because unhasted BM hunters get a 3:2 rotation when using the /cast macro. Logically BM hunters call a 3:2 rotation, erm well a 3:2 rotation.
Unhasted Survival Hunters get a 2:1 rotation when using the /cast macro. Logically SV hunters call a 2:1 rotation, erm well a 2:1 rotation. Well apart from you and Vasilii who still want to call it 3:2.
By your logic we should all toddle off to the to the 128 page long BM thread and say. "Oi you're doing it all wrong! You should be calling your 3:2 Rotation 1:1 because this is what you get when your rotation is hasted???
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact.
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You may ask why I'm even bothered what the hell you call the Auto -> Steady -> Steady rotation. Well the answer is quite simple. People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1.
So lets look at your Incoorect DPS claims for your unhasted rotations and you will see where you are going wrong. CSM advised us of the following:-
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Originally Posted by CSM-EH
@Kurkis
As some others have stipulated on these forums, being able to get 2 specials (in this case 2 steady shots) off in a 1.5 second window (talent build permitting) seems like very odd behavior with regards to how the GCD used to work. If this mechanic is still in place in 2.4, then it will redefine how the hunter class as we know it is played, |
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
1 - 70 of the 96 test cases showed a difference under 0.5s. 26 showed over.
2 - Over all test cases there was an average of 0.44823s between Auto and the previous Steady. 3 - This works out to an 11.55% haste effect over the tooltip 0.5s cast time. Using that data, and what we've seen regarding client-only GCD, I've modified the Shot Rotation matrix as follows: 1 - Latency is no longer added to Steady Shot cast time. 2 - If the shot previous to a GCD-using shot was an Auto Shot, I readjust the GCD start to be the greater of previous GCD or previous Auto Shot cast time + latency. 3 - Auto Shot's cast time is adjusted by the 11.55% haste factor I've found above. |
0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.0 Steady Shot Starts
1.5 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
3.0 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.0 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
4.5 Steady Shot Fires
4.5 Steady Shot Starts
6.0 Steady Shot Fires
6.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.0 seconds.
OH well look ye there then you actually did 8546 damage in 6.0 seconds meaning your DPS using 2:1 is 1424
Compare this with the latency susceptible /castsquence DPS of 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.
@Intermission
The whole /cast craze came about when they made an undocumented change to autoshot in a previous patch. Because Blizzard has been completely mum on the matter, no one knows for sure why the /cast macro works the way it does.
The whole /cast craze came about when they made an undocumented change to autoshot in a previous patch. Because Blizzard has been completely mum on the matter, no one knows for sure why the /cast macro works the way it does.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
@Tiberium
Ive tried the 2:1 rotation, and as you can see, the results did not favor it at all. So let me ask you some questions to figure out what I did wrong.
1) How do you compensate for the macro getting "stuck" shooting Auto Shot? Where it fire 1-5 EXTRA Steady Shots BEFORE getting off the Auto Shot. This problem only occurs while NOT Hasted. When I use Rapid Fire ora Haste Pot, this is not an issue (which is why BM Hunters do not have as much of an issue with it).
2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse. Have you experienced this and is it worth it NOT to use either of those abilities?
3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying. Here is a snipit of what he said:
So im a little confused, I see you saying one thing, and then another person, who you use as a reference, say another.
Ive tried the 2:1 rotation, and as you can see, the results did not favor it at all. So let me ask you some questions to figure out what I did wrong.
1) How do you compensate for the macro getting "stuck" shooting Auto Shot? Where it fire 1-5 EXTRA Steady Shots BEFORE getting off the Auto Shot. This problem only occurs while NOT Hasted. When I use Rapid Fire ora Haste Pot, this is not an issue (which is why BM Hunters do not have as much of an issue with it).
2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse. Have you experienced this and is it worth it NOT to use either of those abilities?
3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying. Here is a snipit of what he said:
| On Kaz'Rogal last week I did like 2288 DPS or something. I basically run with Haste Pot, Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, Heroism which is a large portion of the fight where I am capable of doing a 1:1 rotation. A chunk of time will go by where I am doing a 1.5:1 rotation until potion cool downs are back and then by then the fight is usually over. |
Last edited by Sore82 : 03/24/08 at 10:43 AM.
Tiberius, I'm not sure if you think we're all out to get you... that'd sure be fun, a bunch of hunters who don't care that they're not doing optimal DPS, they just want people on a message board (who they've never even talked to in game, much less in real life) to think they're cool? There is no doubt that when hasted, the 2:1 rotation is superior to a 1:1.5 rotation. I think everyone here can agree with that.
From the post of mine you quoted:
"Without those haste effects, I feel it is pretty obvious that a 1:1.5 rotation is going to be higher dps than a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation. (feel free to comment on this, as it's one of the cornerstones of my argument) This means that as time goes to infinity in a fight, the 1:1.5 hunter will eventually pass the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter, even if the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter gains a temporary lead at the beginning. The 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation is dependant on those haste effects, without them it is inferior. This leads me to believe that the best strategy for dps is to use a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation while you are hasted (and push that haste as long as possible) and then at the point the haste wears off, switch to a 1:1.5 rotation."
Regarding the shot rotation you posted, you can't just completely ignore the effects of latency. It still takes .2s (or whatever your latency is) for your command to get to the server when you send it- this is a physical fact, not something a fancy keyboard or a macro can fix. All the /cast is letting you do is ignore the .2s on the way back telling you your shot finished. In fact, the numbers I did took this into account.
From the post of mine you quoted:
"Without those haste effects, I feel it is pretty obvious that a 1:1.5 rotation is going to be higher dps than a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation. (feel free to comment on this, as it's one of the cornerstones of my argument) This means that as time goes to infinity in a fight, the 1:1.5 hunter will eventually pass the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter, even if the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter gains a temporary lead at the beginning. The 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation is dependant on those haste effects, without them it is inferior. This leads me to believe that the best strategy for dps is to use a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation while you are hasted (and push that haste as long as possible) and then at the point the haste wears off, switch to a 1:1.5 rotation."
Regarding the shot rotation you posted, you can't just completely ignore the effects of latency. It still takes .2s (or whatever your latency is) for your command to get to the server when you send it- this is a physical fact, not something a fancy keyboard or a macro can fix. All the /cast is letting you do is ignore the .2s on the way back telling you your shot finished. In fact, the numbers I did took this into account.
Tiberium, the misinformation you are spreading around this thread is painful. People call it a 3:2 rotation because you should only start using the macro when it will produce a 3:2 or 1:1 sequence. A 2:1 sequence, as has been shown in the test data of several posters, does terrible dps.
This sequence shows a huge misconception of basic hunter mechanics. You are not including the autoshot cast time. Nor are you acknowledging the effects of haste on steady shot. Here is a realistic representation of using a 2:1 rot, which was in my last post that you ignored:
Perhaps a pretty little chart like you used will help:
0.0 Auto Fires
0.0 Steady #1 starts
1.3 Steady #1 fires
1.5 Steady #2 starts
2.8 Steady #2 fires
2.8 Auto starts
3.25 Auto fires
And that is before you even begin to factor in latency. Everyone else that has compared the rotations has said 2:1 does lower dps. Don't waste our time claiming otherwise again unless you can back it up with some numbers.
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
So Now the 2:1 Rotation looks like this.
0.0 Auto Shot Fires 0.0 Steady Shot Starts 1.5 Steady Shot Fires 1.5 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input 3.0 Steady Shot Fires 3.0 Auto Shot Fires 3.0 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input 4.5 Steady Shot Fires 4.5 Steady Shot Starts 6.0 Steady Shot Fires 6.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts |
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Originally Posted by volant
Let's try including a little math in this comparison. You said under ideal circumstances, a 1.5:1 rot produces 1 shot per second. How does the 2:1 match up? Steady #1 requires 1.5 seconds because you have to wait for the GCD. Steady #2 requires 1.3 seconds because you don't. And autoshot requires the .45 determined by Cheeky. That adds up to 3 shots per 3.25 seconds, or about 9% fewer shots than a 1:1.5. The only way a 2:1 rotation will perform better is if it's compensating for a deficiency caused by lag and/or player reaction times.
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0.0 Auto Fires
0.0 Steady #1 starts
1.3 Steady #1 fires
1.5 Steady #2 starts
2.8 Steady #2 fires
2.8 Auto starts
3.25 Auto fires
And that is before you even begin to factor in latency. Everyone else that has compared the rotations has said 2:1 does lower dps. Don't waste our time claiming otherwise again unless you can back it up with some numbers.
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1.
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No back to your regularly scheduled Survival discussion.
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Originally Posted by CSM-EH
@Intermission
The whole /cast craze came about when they made an undocumented change to autoshot in a previous patch. Because Blizzard has been completely mum on the matter, no one knows for sure why the /cast macro works the way it does. |
WotLK should be out within the year, hopefully Blizzard might explain a few things:
How it currently works
How they want it to work
What the new broken WotLK rotation will be
What the newer, slightly less broken WotLK 3.1 rotation will be
Please forgive me for being cynical, playing a hunter for 3 years will do that to you.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Intermission
What the new broken WotLK rotation will be
What the newer, slightly less broken WotLK 3.1 rotation will be Please forgive me for being cynical, playing a hunter for 3 years will do that to you. |
Do the developers want timing to be as all-important for hunters as it currently is?
Also to people talking about cheeky's modelling, manually input the rotation that your macro produces in the appropriate tab and the spreadsheet will use it. It takes 5 minutes... and is a lot easier than making poor cheeky model blizzard's macro system.
Last edited by ugla : 03/24/08 at 8:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Tiberium-
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it. I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes: Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact. Assuming no haste, with a 3.0 speed bow modified only with a 15% quiver (2.55 seconds per Auto Shot) and a .2s latency 0.0 Auto Shot Fires 0.2 Steady Shot Starts 1.7 Steady Shot Fires 1.9 Steady Shot Starts 3.4 Steady Shot Fires 3.4 Auto Shot Fires 3.6 Steady Shot Starts 5.1 Steady Shot Fires 5.3 Steady Shot Starts 6.8 Steady Shot Fires 6.8 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.8 seconds. Going off my damage from last week's raid (Wow Web Stats Steady Shot Average = 999 Crit Average = 2318 Auto Shot Average = 897 Crit Average = 2140 Arcane Shot Average = 909 Crit Average = 2198 I had a 43% Crit rate, so ((999x.47)+(2318x.43)x4 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 = (469 + 997)x4 + (421 + 920)x2 = 8546 damage in 6.8 seconds = 1256 DPS 0.0 Auto Shot Fires 0.2 Steady Shot Starts 1.7 Steady Shot Fires 1.9 Arcane Shot Fires 2.5 Auto Shot Fires 2.7 Steady Shot Starts 4.2 Steady Shot Fires 5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts With the 1:1.5 rotation, you just fired 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, and an Arcane Shot in 5.0 seconds. ((999x.47)+(2318x.43))x2 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 + ((909x.47)+(2198x.43))x1 = (469 + 997)x2 + (421 + 920)x2 + (427 + 945) = 2932 + 2682 + 1372 = 6986 damage in 5.0 seconds = 1397 DPS These numbers include the 4/5 T6 bonus, as well as take into account any vagaries that might be introduced by a small sample size, since 733 Auto Shots, 551 Steady Shots, and 288 Arcane Shots should average out pretty well. 1256 vs 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me. |
You're specc'd 0/20/41 and you do a 1:1.5, which I hopefully understand is: auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, (KC), auto, steady, multi, auto. Don't know if this applies to you, but assuming the only means of haste you receive is your own rapid fire and a possible haste pot; would it be more effective to have readiness for an extra Rapid Fire or to spec for barrage with some points in ranged weapon specialization?
For an illustration as to how far my guild's progressed: We downed Azgalor for our 2nd time last week and we have yet to kill Teron. I'm usually put in a group with a feral druid and nothing else of beneficial value, meanwhile my only means of haste is a Rapid Fire, which leads me back to the question of your talents or rather what I should spec. I've been 0/20/41 and I really enjoyed readiness for the extra Rapid Fire, but after thinking about it... Most of my boss fights range from 4-6 minutes and I thought that 12% more multi shot damage along with 4% more ranged weapon damage (did 2/3 for expose weakness, probably gonna have to do 3/3 though) would be more useful. I also looked into a spec of 7/22/32 (which would actually be the 7/20/34 everybody's talking about) and felt that the 15% haste bonus from IAoTH wasn't fast enough to give me a useful 1:1, but it wasn't slow enough so that I could maintain a 1:1.5.
DPS is fine, I guess, but I'm more interested in what would achieve the most damage done. Off the top of my head there's been a fight where I'd have 1.2k dps whereas someone else is around 1.4k dps, but I still pulled 40k more damage. So... dancing around aside, with boss fights taking between 4-6 minutes and your only means of haste being a haste pot and rapid fire, would a 7/20/34, 0/20/41, or 0/28/33 be more useful (specc'd with barrage instead of imp arcane shot)? I tried to get a hold of you in game, but it being so late you were probably sleeping.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Sore82, I saw a couple of problems with the testing you did of 1:1.5 v 2:1.
First, your test does not take into account the armor pen factor that you will normally benefit from while raiding. Granted, as a level 70 hitting a level 60, this does come into effect less, but it is still an issue between arcane shot/steady shot testing.
Second, your shot clipping. I would take the KC out of the macro, as I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong, don't really want to search 50+ pages for it) it has been posted in the thread that KC actually drops DPS or is terribly mana inefficient. I haven't tried the macro with lightning breath as I don't have a WS, but I have used it in a raid environment and I clip autoshots very rarely. Using Quartz, I stop spamming the macro after the second steady has started to cast and wait for a brief moment after the steady bar has finish filling before I start spamming again, just as you would with a 1:1.5 macro. If you can watch for autos with a 1:1.5, I don't see how it isn't practical to be able to wait for the same thing with the 2:1 macro.
Third, your spec/gear. Were you 25/36 for both tests :? A 2:1 spec doesn't require the points in IAS and barrage in marks that a 1:1.5 benefits from, and with those points you could spec 20/41 into Master Tactician, benefiting from some extra crit in your tests. Also, I'm not sure what trinkets you normally use (Armory down for maintenence), but using an Ashtongue Talisman could make a significant difference in the numbers you're seeing.
Fourth, while it's nice to run full mana bar tests, we have to consider the mana usage of both rotations in a raid environment. Maybe one is better for those who have constant access to a spriest while the other is more mana efficient at the cost of a slight amount of DPS. Also, how do overall crit rates compare with IAS or barrage versus master tactician :? Crits are one of the mainstays of the survival hunter, giving us mana, EW procs, and more damage.
I appreciate the amount of time you put into these tests, but if you really want to be accurate, there's a couple of things you might consider.
*Working on your use of the 2:1 macro to where you are able to control clipping to a reasonable degree. Nobody can do it 100% perfect, but there's always room to improve.
*Respeccing/trinketing to gain full appreciation of each rotation's idiosyncrasies. As a side note, what trinkets are best for a 2:1 :?
*Noting how long a full mana bar test lasted with each rotation. What aspect were you using :? What crit rates were you seeing overall :?
Other notes on 2:1 rotation theorycrafting:
Everyone seems to have different opinions on just what a 2:1 rotation would actually look like with shot times. What does it REALLY look like :? Given accurate models of a 2:1 and a 1:1.5, what is the average shots per second :? Working from the viewpoint of different specs and how they affect crit chances, and given accurate shots per second, what sorts of differences do we notice in overall crit rate and specific shot crit rate :? Which one will give us more EW procs and how do the shots and their relative crit rates change the benefit we see from ToTH :? Where exactly is the haste threshold that would bump us into a 3:2 from a 2:1 :? As above, what trinkets will benefit us the most in a 2:1 or 3:2 :? Along with that, if we did switch it back and forth from a hasted 3:2 or 1:1 to an unhasted 1:1.5, what trinkets will give us the most bang for our buck overall :? How much of a difference does T6 and armor pen make in our consideration of 2:1 v 1:1.5 :? Are there base weapon damage/ap numbers that have a clear line of when one rotation is better :?
First, your test does not take into account the armor pen factor that you will normally benefit from while raiding. Granted, as a level 70 hitting a level 60, this does come into effect less, but it is still an issue between arcane shot/steady shot testing.
Second, your shot clipping. I would take the KC out of the macro, as I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong, don't really want to search 50+ pages for it) it has been posted in the thread that KC actually drops DPS or is terribly mana inefficient. I haven't tried the macro with lightning breath as I don't have a WS, but I have used it in a raid environment and I clip autoshots very rarely. Using Quartz, I stop spamming the macro after the second steady has started to cast and wait for a brief moment after the steady bar has finish filling before I start spamming again, just as you would with a 1:1.5 macro. If you can watch for autos with a 1:1.5, I don't see how it isn't practical to be able to wait for the same thing with the 2:1 macro.
Third, your spec/gear. Were you 25/36 for both tests :? A 2:1 spec doesn't require the points in IAS and barrage in marks that a 1:1.5 benefits from, and with those points you could spec 20/41 into Master Tactician, benefiting from some extra crit in your tests. Also, I'm not sure what trinkets you normally use (Armory down for maintenence), but using an Ashtongue Talisman could make a significant difference in the numbers you're seeing.
Fourth, while it's nice to run full mana bar tests, we have to consider the mana usage of both rotations in a raid environment. Maybe one is better for those who have constant access to a spriest while the other is more mana efficient at the cost of a slight amount of DPS. Also, how do overall crit rates compare with IAS or barrage versus master tactician :? Crits are one of the mainstays of the survival hunter, giving us mana, EW procs, and more damage.
I appreciate the amount of time you put into these tests, but if you really want to be accurate, there's a couple of things you might consider.
*Working on your use of the 2:1 macro to where you are able to control clipping to a reasonable degree. Nobody can do it 100% perfect, but there's always room to improve.
*Respeccing/trinketing to gain full appreciation of each rotation's idiosyncrasies. As a side note, what trinkets are best for a 2:1 :?
*Noting how long a full mana bar test lasted with each rotation. What aspect were you using :? What crit rates were you seeing overall :?
Other notes on 2:1 rotation theorycrafting:
Everyone seems to have different opinions on just what a 2:1 rotation would actually look like with shot times. What does it REALLY look like :? Given accurate models of a 2:1 and a 1:1.5, what is the average shots per second :? Working from the viewpoint of different specs and how they affect crit chances, and given accurate shots per second, what sorts of differences do we notice in overall crit rate and specific shot crit rate :? Which one will give us more EW procs and how do the shots and their relative crit rates change the benefit we see from ToTH :? Where exactly is the haste threshold that would bump us into a 3:2 from a 2:1 :? As above, what trinkets will benefit us the most in a 2:1 or 3:2 :? Along with that, if we did switch it back and forth from a hasted 3:2 or 1:1 to an unhasted 1:1.5, what trinkets will give us the most bang for our buck overall :? How much of a difference does T6 and armor pen make in our consideration of 2:1 v 1:1.5 :? Are there base weapon damage/ap numbers that have a clear line of when one rotation is better :?
Last edited by Jobby : 03/25/08 at 7:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lockain
Wouldn't it be easier to judge the dps difference by comparing boss kills while using 2:1 to boss kills while using 1:1.5? Not that I actually care about that, what I am interested in though is your spec.
You're specc'd 0/20/41 and you do a 1:1.5, which I hopefully understand is: auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, (KC), auto, steady, multi, auto. Don't know if this applies to you, but assuming the only means of haste you receive is your own rapid fire and a possible haste pot; would it be more effective to have readiness for an extra Rapid Fire or to spec for barrage with some points in ranged weapon specialization? For an illustration as to how far my guild's progressed: We downed Azgalor for our 2nd time last week and we have yet to kill Teron. I'm usually put in a group with a feral druid and nothing else of beneficial value, meanwhile my only means of haste is a Rapid Fire, which leads me back to the question of your talents or rather what I should spec. I've been 0/20/41 and I really enjoyed readiness for the extra Rapid Fire, but after thinking about it... Most of my boss fights range from 4-6 minutes and I thought that 12% more multi shot damage along with 4% more ranged weapon damage (did 2/3 for expose weakness, probably gonna have to do 3/3 though) would be more useful. I also looked into a spec of 7/22/32 (which would actually be the 7/20/34 everybody's talking about) and felt that the 15% haste bonus from IAoTH wasn't fast enough to give me a useful 1:1, but it wasn't slow enough so that I could maintain a 1:1.5. DPS is fine, I guess, but I'm more interested in what would achieve the most damage done. Off the top of my head there's been a fight where I'd have 1.2k dps whereas someone else is around 1.4k dps, but I still pulled 40k more damage. So... dancing around aside, with boss fights taking between 4-6 minutes and your only means of haste being a haste pot and rapid fire, would a 7/20/34, 0/20/41, or 0/28/33 be more useful (specc'd with barrage instead of imp arcane shot)? I tried to get a hold of you in game, but it being so late you were probably sleeping. |
Also, your thinking about DPS is misleading. I assume you're using WWS to get these numbers- the real way to find your DPS is to take total damage done / length of the fight. WWS gives an instant DPS, which while pretty close isn't always accurate. If you're running around, so is everyone else though, so your numbers are still likely to be the same relative to each other.
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Originally Posted by Jobby
Other notes on 2:1 rotation theorycrafting: Everyone seems to have different opinions on just what a 2:1 rotation would actually look like with shot times. What does it REALLY look like :? Given accurate models of a 2:1 and a 1:1.5, what is the average shots per second :? Working from the viewpoint of different specs and how they affect crit chances, and given accurate shots per second, what sorts of differences do we notice in overall crit rate and specific shot crit rate :? Which one will give us more EW procs and how do the shots and their relative crit rates change the benefit we see from ToTH :? Where exactly is the haste threshold that would bump us into a 3:2 from a 2:1 :? As above, what trinkets will benefit us the most in a 2:1 or 3:2 :? Along with that, if we did switch it back and forth from a hasted 3:2 or 1:1 to an unhasted 1:1.5, what trinkets will give us the most bang for our buck overall :? How much of a difference does T6 and armor pen make in our consideration of 2:1 v 1:1.5 :? Are there base weapon damage/ap numbers that have a clear line of when one rotation is better :? |
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Well I've been reading this thread for a while now and I'm seeing quite a bit of disagreements going on over what exactly is the best for this or that and then something else gets brought up and the original subject never gets brought to a conclusion. So I'm gonna try and sum up some of the questions that I think a new reader or person who has recently switched to survival (like myself) may have and be looking for some, hopefully, concrete answers.
Recently there was some speculation as to what bow in 2.4 excluding Thoridal will yield the best dps for a survival hunter. Basically, is one of the 3.0 bows really being out performed by the 2.8 speed badge bow?
If we are using 3.0 or 2.8 with small amounts of haste (0-5%) after the 15% from quiver is factored in, what is the best rotation to use? I.E. the 1:1.5 or the 3:2/1:1
Is using kill command worth it in any rotation? If so what rotations does it actually increase dmg?
Is using bite worth the extra focus loss or should our WS's just be spamming LB?
I'm sure theres some more but these are the ones that seem to have quite a few different opinions or almost no data/responses at all on the matter.
Recently there was some speculation as to what bow in 2.4 excluding Thoridal will yield the best dps for a survival hunter. Basically, is one of the 3.0 bows really being out performed by the 2.8 speed badge bow?
If we are using 3.0 or 2.8 with small amounts of haste (0-5%) after the 15% from quiver is factored in, what is the best rotation to use? I.E. the 1:1.5 or the 3:2/1:1
Is using kill command worth it in any rotation? If so what rotations does it actually increase dmg?
Is using bite worth the extra focus loss or should our WS's just be spamming LB?
I'm sure theres some more but these are the ones that seem to have quite a few different opinions or almost no data/responses at all on the matter.
Last edited by Aern : 03/25/08 at 2:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by Leighlu
Reading SomeRandom's post, I had a thought as well:
/cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency. Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies. I'm sure there's some limitation that prevents it, because it's so logical and obvious. But I'll try that tonight perhaps, if no badge farming opportunities come up. ;P @ SomeRandom Excellent, excellent post..Bravo! |
With that said, I was wondering if anyone has had a chance to test out the above macro? I've been using that macro for quite some time now, and although I'm working on getting WWS setup tonight so I can provide some numbers for the community, my damage meter indicates an increase in DPS from the /castsequence macro I was using previously.
I'm assuming for those with the 4-piece T6 bonus that it wouldn't be worth the extra mana to use Arcane Shot considering you get an extra 10% damage on your steady shots (please correct me if I am wrong though). However, what about for those without the bonus (ugh... my guild is only at Kara atm)?
I know that the /cast macros are very desirable to those with the T6 bonus since, with it, you cast more steady shots per auto. However, I have an issue with latency and I've read that /castsequence macros have reduced performance under high latency values.
So basically, I'm asking if I'm possibly gimping myself in DPS with that macro? Are there any downsides to it that I might be missing? And finally, any advice on my gear (getting some 2.4 badge rewards tonight) or talents (guild still relies on me a lot for CC) that would help me increase my DPS?
Thank you in advance for your help.
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Aha, I see. Well I've got news for you, nobody calls a Rotation that goes Auto -> Steady -> Steady 3:2 except you and Vasilii. You've even written yourself you have no idea why you call it a 3:2 Rotation here
This is where the fun starts. Firstly after 2.3.2 everybody thought that using the /cast macro universally was the best thing since sliced bread, not just me. Users included CSM, Monco, Trohck and Kurkis (Still the highest DPS WWS poster on this thread) to name but a few. But I suppose they are all wrong as well. You of course disagreed with using 2:1 even back then. One thing that puzzles me no end, when you discussed Kurkis's DPS here http://elitistjerks.com/616892-post944.html you used to call the 2:1 rotation, well 2:1, seamed like a logical thing to do back then so why did you decide to change to our survival rotation to 3:2? You may ask why I'm even bothered what the hell you call the Auto -> Steady -> Steady rotation. Well the answer is quite simple. People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1. So lets look at your Incoorect DPS claims for your unhasted rotations and you will see where you are going wrong. CSM advised us of the following:- When actually modelling the 3:2 BM rotation Cheeky has told us With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.0 seconds. OH well look ye there then you actually did 8546 damage in 6.0 seconds meaning your DPS using 2:1 is 1424 Compare this with the latency susceptible /castsquence DPS of 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me. |
LOL I'm an idiot, thank you enlightening me about the 2:1 rotation, apologizes for my misunderstanding. However I still disagree with you about the gear recommendations that you made :P
I have done some modeling in Cheeky's with some interesting results:
0/20/41 Spec (3/3 EW, 2/3 ToTH) (All standard raid buffs, agility elixir)
End game gear set I posted a few pages back
No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5 or 2:1)
2:1 Rotation Manually Modeled
DPS: 2210.04
Time to OOM: 200.42
Cycle Time: 3.16
Total Damage = 106,245.03
Total Time = 53.65 seconds
1:1.5 Rotation Manually Modeled
DPS: 2182.43
Time to OOM: 130.82
Cycle time: 2.60
Total Damage = 101,444.23
Total Time = 52.00 seconds
Total Damage (adjusted for time difference) = 105,045.24
Comments:
- Damage is almost identical
- The rotations are both manually hand woven. Using a castsequence for either will drop the DPS dramatically, especially the 2:1 rotation.
- 2:1 will only out dps 1:1.5 with the legendary bow
- 2:1 may still not be realistic, at this time there is no easy way to macro it and handweave is likely (???) more difficult than 1:1.5.
- If we can find a good macro for 2:1, then it may be an ideal end-game rotation with the legendary because it provides a significant time to OOM advantage.
- Using the ashtounge talisman of swiftness (strangely) did not provide any dps benefit over berserkers call or madness of the betrayer with 2:1.
- I did not investigate the use of haste gear with a 2:1 rotation.
Spec (completed unrelated to above)
Lots of questions about talent specs recently. I have changed my opinion from "0/20/41 is always best" after reading a SV guide posted by Alu (a guy who used to post here and operates his own website) His conclusion:
Because most fights (80%+) require movement, target switching, stops in dps, etc.... that the value of MT is diminished. If you cannot stand still and dps and do a perfect rotation, you will not be taking advantage of all your MT procs. I'm starting to come around on this line of thinking, while I agree that an MT spec will out dps any other on a static fight, on movement fights I think a hybrid with barrage is superior. I'm enjoying a hybrid, 25/37ish spec.
Here's the link to the guide its a good read from a very knowledgeable hunter: Alu's SV Guide
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
Shot rotations don't vary in effectiveness according to your stats, aside from some potential confusion with arcane shot and armor penetration. They do, however, vary in effectiveness compared to your haste. The correct action is to switch between 1:1.5 and 3:2 rotations depending on haste effects- any "non-trivial" haste (e.g. anything beyond a piece or two of haste gear, and drums) should cause you to swap to a 3:2 rotation.
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Last edited by Jobby : 03/25/08 at 4:02 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Tiberium,
LOL I'm an idiot, thank you enlightening me about the 2:1 rotation, apologizes for my misunderstanding. However I still disagree with you about the gear recommendations that you made :P I have done some modeling in Cheeky's with some interesting results: 0/20/41 Spec (3/3 EW, 2/3 ToTH) (All standard raid buffs, agility elixir) End game gear set I posted a few pages back No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5 or 2:1) 2:1 Rotation Manually Modeled DPS: 2210.04 Time to OOM: 200.42 Cycle Time: 3.16 Total Damage = 106,245.03 Total Time = 53.65 seconds 1:1.5 Rotation Manually Modeled DPS: 2182.43 Time to OOM: 130.82 Cycle time: 2.60 Total Damage = 101,444.23 Total Time = 52.00 seconds Total Damage (adjusted for time difference) = 105,045.24 |
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
- Damage is almost identical
- 2:1 will only out dps 1:1.5 with the legendary bow - If we can find a good macro for 2:1, then it may be an ideal end-game rotation with the legendary because it provides a significant time to OOM advantage. |
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
- Using the ashtounge talisman of swiftness (strangely) did not provide any dps benefit over berserkers call or madness of the betrayer with 2:1.
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Last edited by Jobby : 03/25/08 at 4:04 PM.
The notion that Cheeky's spreadsheet models rotations rather than macros encouraged me to go back and simulate the exact shot sequences that we're talking about here. I manually input a 2:1 rotation (Auto-Steady-Steady, repeat) and compared that to the 1.5:1 rotation (Auto-Steady-Multi-Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady, repeat) and the 3:2 rotation (Auto-Steady-Steady-Auto-Steady, repeat). With a 0/20/41 build, late-T5 gear (1k buffed agility), and the S3 bow, my results were:
* 2:1 - 1566 DPS
* 1.5:1 - 1640 DPS
* 3:2 - 1489 DPS
Under hasted conditions (Rapid Fire), I compared 3:2 and 1:1 priority rotations:
* 1:1 - 1869 DPS
* 3:2 - 1780 DPS
This is theoretical of course, and I fully plan on doing some in-game testing once I get off work, but at least according to Cheeky, the /cast macro and its resulting 2:1 and 3:2 rotations don't offer anything for my current spec and gear. I'll be curious to see if the in-game results match this prediction.
I think those who are advocating individualized simulation and experimentation are right on the mark. I don't believe there's a blanket answer to the "What macro should I use?" question since it's dependent on so many individual factors.
* 2:1 - 1566 DPS
* 1.5:1 - 1640 DPS
* 3:2 - 1489 DPS
Under hasted conditions (Rapid Fire), I compared 3:2 and 1:1 priority rotations:
* 1:1 - 1869 DPS
* 3:2 - 1780 DPS
This is theoretical of course, and I fully plan on doing some in-game testing once I get off work, but at least according to Cheeky, the /cast macro and its resulting 2:1 and 3:2 rotations don't offer anything for my current spec and gear. I'll be curious to see if the in-game results match this prediction.
I think those who are advocating individualized simulation and experimentation are right on the mark. I don't believe there's a blanket answer to the "What macro should I use?" question since it's dependent on so many individual factors.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Lockain
You're specc'd 0/20/41 and you do a 1:1.5, which I hopefully understand is: auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, (KC), auto, steady, multi, auto. Don't know if this applies to you, but assuming the only means of haste you receive is your own rapid fire and a possible haste pot; would it be more effective to have readiness for an extra Rapid Fire or to spec for barrage with some points in ranged weapon specialization?
For an illustration as to how far my guild's progressed: We downed Azgalor for our 2nd time last week and we have yet to kill Teron. I'm usually put in a group with a feral druid and nothing else of beneficial value, meanwhile my only means of haste is a Rapid Fire, which leads me back to the question of your talents or rather what I should spec. I've been 0/20/41 and I really enjoyed readiness for the extra Rapid Fire, but after thinking about it... Most of my boss fights range from 4-6 minutes and I thought that 12% more multi shot damage along with 4% more ranged weapon damage (did 2/3 for expose weakness, probably gonna have to do 3/3 though) would be more useful. I also looked into a spec of 7/22/32 (which would actually be the 7/20/34 everybody's talking about) and felt that the 15% haste bonus from IAoTH wasn't fast enough to give me a useful 1:1, but it wasn't slow enough so that I could maintain a 1:1.5. |
I am an advocate of the 0/20/41 spec, because of the synergy of the extra crit with my talents that proc off crit, such as EW, TotH, crit trinket, etc. and because of the utility of Readiness. I also realize that other specs are viable too and some work better with different playing styles. The differences between many of the specs is trading off one attribute for another with the tradeoff priorities being different for different folks.
As an illustration, comparing your current spec and the 0/20/41 on my character (results can vary between characters with race, gear, buffs, rotations, etc.), I get the following for 0/20/41 assuming level 73 target with no debuffs besides those I do:
DPS: 1348.50
Time to OOM: 131.96s
EW Uptime: 99.26%
Average EW AP: 295.07
Raid DPS*: 1938.64
With your spec:
DPS: 1356.32 (+7.82)
Time to OOM: 125.69s (-6.27)
EW Uptime: 92.26% (-7.00%)
Average EW AP: 274.27 (-20.8)
Raid DPS*: 1904.86 (-33.78)
* Raid DPS assumes 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS in the raid.
As can be seen, the 0/20/41 spec does a little less personal DPS than your spec but has better mana management and better overall raid DPS. I personally prefer to attempt to maximize my raid DPS contribution, that is why I picked 0/20/41.
However, this is not the full story. The benefits of Readiness is not modeled in Cheeky's since its use is not consistent. But I think it is safe to say that assuming that you are able to use it for at least one extra RF (or maybe 2) per boss fight, that your personal DPS as well as your raid contribution will be even higher and above that of your current spec. Also, consider the benefits of being able to perform extra MDs while pulling trash and having the possibility of an extra FD if needed to help survive or manage threat. Thus, I prefer the 0/20/41 spec.
This is not to say that you should change your spec to 0/20/41. That is up to you. However, if you like a Barrage build, I would like to suggest a few changes that is a mix between your current build and 0/20/41. It's a 0/23/38 build that makes the following changes from your build:
1) Adds a rank to EW (from RWS) as SomeRandom also suggested. Sure that 3rd rank only adds about 7% uptime and 20.8 AP per above, but those numbers are for the ideal rotation, which is rarely, if ever, feasible. During most fights, you often have to move, switch targets, FD, refresh HM, MD, get stunned or interrupted, etc. that prevents you implementing your ideal rotation. In those situations, the different between 2 and 3 ranks in EW is much larger. Personally, I think ~21 AP per physical raid DPS in the raid is a talent point well spent, but it is even better spent considering that the amount is larger during non-ideal situations. Losing 1% damage (about 13.6 DPS) is worth gaining at least 20.8 AP on EW proc, which is about 8-10 personal DPS for you and your pet and at least another 42 DPS for the raid.
2) Adds 2 ranks to TotH (from RWS). Since you mentioned that you only get a druid buff, I assume you do not get any mana regen abilities besides BoW. If so, TotH is a great ability and is better than Efficiency. 5/5 in Efficiency only conserves 10% of your mana on shots (and stings, which you should only be using situationally). Each rank in TotH, conserves 5.3% mana assuming 40% buffed crit rate and provides even more returns at higher crit rates (it is about 6.8% at my about 52% raid buff crit). Thus, just 2 ranks in TotH is better than 5 ranks in Efficiency. I realize that you are giving up 2 ranks in RSW (and 2% damage) for more mana at this point, but it works out better with the other changes.
3) Put 3 ranks in MT (last RWS rank and 2 from 2nd level MM). The 3 ranks in MT provides for my situation about 2.24% average crit, which is benefitial for improving your straigh out DPS, but also in proccing EW, TotH, crit trinket, etc. In the second level of MM tree, decide whether you need the mana or whether you need to provide the IHM. Ideally, BMs should have IHM since they have less mana concerns than other hunters (I have it though since I am the most consistent raiding hunter in the guld) allowing you to get Efficiency. However, if you need IHM and am concerned about mana, you can always move a point from MT into TotH.
With these changes, the results are, with comparing to your current spec:
DPS: 1344.12 (-12.2)
Time to OOM: 131.34s (+5.65s)
EW Uptime: 99.09% (+6.83)
Average EW AP: 294.57 (+20.3)
Raid DPS*: 1933.26 (+28.4)
As can be seen, although it has a loss in personal DPS, it is an improvement on your spec in every other category. However, I would no suggest this spec, since it is in every stat worse than the 0/20/41, and that is without factoring in the benefits of Readiness. This change was done mostly to illustrate the benefits of the 3rd rank in EW and ranks in TotH over Efficiency.
Concerning IAtH/FF builds, as someone who has tried out a 7/XX/XX spec, I would suggest other options instead since unpredictable haste can cause difficulties unless you are good at recognizing it and responding to it appropriately (i.e., changing rotations). I personally have a difficult time seeing when it or DST procs and I need to change rotations. But from previous theoretical analysis I performed, I found that even if I executed the change ideally, that several other survival specs functioned better. It may be a better option in end game gear where the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations can be more effective and which can automatically scale for you under haste effects, either planned or procced, if using the proper macro.
Anyway, that's my input. I do not suggest you taking any of my information as is since our characters and situations are different. Please try things out both theoretically and in application yourself to see what works best for you and your character.
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Originally Posted by Kierran
With a 0/20/41 build, late-T5 gear (1k buffed agility) ...
, but at least according to Cheeky, the /cast macro and its resulting 2:1 and 3:2 rotations don't offer anything for my current spec and gear. I'll be curious to see if the in-game results match this prediction. I think those who are advocating individualized simulation and experimentation are right on the mark. I don't believe there's a blanket answer to the "What macro should I use?" question since it's dependent on so many individual factors. |
Yep, I am an advocate of checking things out for yourself. I think this thread is a great place to get some wonderful ideas that you may not have thought of yourself or ways to better implement your ideas that you can then try out yourself to see if they work for you.
If playing a Survival hunter was "one size fits all", it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Nor would this thread be nearly as informative or, dare I say, entertaining.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/25/08 at 6:42 PM. Reason: Adding in second response to avoid back-to-back post and a possible violation
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
Comments: - Damage is almost identical - The rotations are both manually hand woven. Using a castsequence for either will drop the DPS dramatically, especially the 2:1 rotation. - 2:1 will only out dps 1:1.5 with the legendary bow - 2:1 may still not be realistic, at this time there is no easy way to macro it and handweave is likely (???) more difficult than 1:1.5. - If we can find a good macro for 2:1, then it may be an ideal end-game rotation with the legendary because it provides a significant time to OOM advantage. - Using the ashtounge talisman of swiftness (strangely) did not provide any dps benefit over berserkers call or madness of the betrayer with 2:1. - I did not investigate the use of haste gear with a 2:1 rotation. |
- 2:1 react much better with haste. It will drop to 3:2 or 1:1 automatically once you're hasted.
- Since it's much more mana efficient it CAN, and should imo, be used with KC. That adds a bit of dps even as Survival
- Keeping in mind the above 2 points, 7-20-34 is a very solid build, generally better than 0-20-41 unless the fight is short enough to benefit a lot from the extra rapid fire
- Armor penetration will be used at full potential
In sunwell prospective getting 5% haste will be really easy, and while not affecting much your performance in unhasted situation, with 15% haste from IaotH it will put you in the same situation as unhasted BM hunters producing a 3:2.
Also i'd like to add that getting stuck on steadyshots with the macro is just a matter of getting used to it, you may be spamming the macro too fast or just have the feeling of it, check your final results for better reading your performance.
I've just recently switched to 7/21/33 and must say my performance are getting better and better. I still have to try the 20/41 tho, so i don't have a direct comparison with it yet.
As an example here is one of the latest raids i did (we do rotate a lot lately to gear up as best as possible), 1600 DPS on Rage. Nothing to scream about but if you look at buffs you'll notice i had only 1 BM hunter buff and 1 heroism and had to move once for death and decay.
I did not used KC either, probably that would have added 60-70DPS more.
I was using Legionkiller at the time, BBS dropped for me that raid and have yet to test it in a real situation
Wow Web Stats
Hello all, first time poster here.
I've been following the rotation discussions for a while but am quite reluctant to switch.
Some background infromation:
I'm one of those 600+ ms latency guys, from my experiance thus far, I found that it's almost impossible for me to hand-weave or macro 2:1 and recount tells me when I try to, it's approximately 3:2 I'm getting. Hence I decided I would just use the 3:2 in cheeky's.
As I'm only at 3/4 T6 right now. I believe it's still fine to stick wtih 1:1.5. But since 2.4 is going live this week, with Sunwell opening and 3 tokens per kill I need to consider, "Passive Haste or not?" and "3:2 or 1:1.5"
Below are the numbers I got from Cheeky's
(Buffs: Kings, Might, Major agi, burger, mark of wild, sunder, 6200 base boss armor, no, our raid leader doesn't give hunter shaman, never)
T6.5, 0.2s Latency
Non-Haste Setup 1:1.5 =1836 dps
Non-Haste Setup 3:2 = 1730 dps
Haste Setup 3:2 = 1842 dps
T6.5, 0.6s Latency
Non-Haste Setup 1:1.5 = 1678 dps
Non-Haste Setup 3:2 = 1721 dps
Haste Setup 3:2= 1671 dps,
EW Difference(Approximate):
Non-haste Setup: 1198 agi
Haste Setup: 1187 agi
Assume 97% uptime, 3 tanks(coefficient 0.5), 3 rogs( coefficient 1), 1 feral(Coefficient 1), 2 other hunters(Coefficient 1)
EW benefit difference = (1198-1187)*(3*0.5+3+1+2)*0.3*0.97/4 = 5.2 dps
Haste 3:2 setup seems to perform better than non-hasted 1:1.5 at both 0.2s and 0.6s latency, EW benefit considered.
Indeed the spread sheet showed that latency has a much higher effect on passive haste setup, but base on my own observations, I believe the difference should be even larger, between 0.2s and 0.6s, for hasted setup. One thing that bugs me is that the difference between 0.2s and 0.6s for non-haste 3:2 is merely 9 dps, this seems to be much smaller than what I've been experiencing and other rotations are showing difference in the hundreds. Or it could be that, I've never had real experience with passive haste, and bloodlust dropped the autoshot timer to the point that 1:1 is still worse than 1:1.5 while 3:2 is not practically possible due to my latency
After comparing with recount data against Teron, with my current gear setup I'm supposed to be doing approximately 1450 dps given the buffs and my current gear, and the few "Good kill" recount I have are showing 1350 ~ 1400. Even the sample size is quite small, but I'd say that for 1:1.5 rotation, the spread sheet modeled the latency issue quite well. So the question is, is there anyone here that are quite experienced with 2:1 or 3:2 rotation and plays under constant 600+ ms latency? How accurate is the spread sheet when it comes to a rotation that are supposed to be more latency sensitive?
I've been following the rotation discussions for a while but am quite reluctant to switch.
Some background infromation:
I'm one of those 600+ ms latency guys, from my experiance thus far, I found that it's almost impossible for me to hand-weave or macro 2:1 and recount tells me when I try to, it's approximately 3:2 I'm getting. Hence I decided I would just use the 3:2 in cheeky's.
As I'm only at 3/4 T6 right now. I believe it's still fine to stick wtih 1:1.5. But since 2.4 is going live this week, with Sunwell opening and 3 tokens per kill I need to consider, "Passive Haste or not?" and "3:2 or 1:1.5"
Below are the numbers I got from Cheeky's
(Buffs: Kings, Might, Major agi, burger, mark of wild, sunder, 6200 base boss armor, no, our raid leader doesn't give hunter shaman, never)
T6.5, 0.2s Latency
Non-Haste Setup 1:1.5 =1836 dps
Non-Haste Setup 3:2 = 1730 dps
Haste Setup 3:2 = 1842 dps
T6.5, 0.6s Latency
Non-Haste Setup 1:1.5 = 1678 dps
Non-Haste Setup 3:2 = 1721 dps
Haste Setup 3:2= 1671 dps,
EW Difference(Approximate):
Non-haste Setup: 1198 agi
Haste Setup: 1187 agi
Assume 97% uptime, 3 tanks(coefficient 0.5), 3 rogs( coefficient 1), 1 feral(Coefficient 1), 2 other hunters(Coefficient 1)
EW benefit difference = (1198-1187)*(3*0.5+3+1+2)*0.3*0.97/4 = 5.2 dps
Haste 3:2 setup seems to perform better than non-hasted 1:1.5 at both 0.2s and 0.6s latency, EW benefit considered.
Indeed the spread sheet showed that latency has a much higher effect on passive haste setup, but base on my own observations, I believe the difference should be even larger, between 0.2s and 0.6s, for hasted setup. One thing that bugs me is that the difference between 0.2s and 0.6s for non-haste 3:2 is merely 9 dps, this seems to be much smaller than what I've been experiencing and other rotations are showing difference in the hundreds. Or it could be that, I've never had real experience with passive haste, and bloodlust dropped the autoshot timer to the point that 1:1 is still worse than 1:1.5 while 3:2 is not practically possible due to my latency
After comparing with recount data against Teron, with my current gear setup I'm supposed to be doing approximately 1450 dps given the buffs and my current gear, and the few "Good kill" recount I have are showing 1350 ~ 1400. Even the sample size is quite small, but I'd say that for 1:1.5 rotation, the spread sheet modeled the latency issue quite well. So the question is, is there anyone here that are quite experienced with 2:1 or 3:2 rotation and plays under constant 600+ ms latency? How accurate is the spread sheet when it comes to a rotation that are supposed to be more latency sensitive?
I've decided to switch from BM to SV for Sunwell and have tried to absorb as much information as I can from the last 15 pages of this thread. So far the most suiting theory for me seems to be the following:
I have "BT on farm since autumn"-gear (armory seems to be bugging)
I have 20-30ms and 60fps during raids.
0/28/33 spec (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
37 passive haste and 3.0 speed weapon which is close enough for "2.9"
When unhasted I'll use (not sure if KC is usable with this)
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
When heroism, rapid fire or haste pot is up I'll switch to
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
+
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Did I forget or misunderstand something?
I have "BT on farm since autumn"-gear (armory seems to be bugging)
I have 20-30ms and 60fps during raids.
0/28/33 spec (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
37 passive haste and 3.0 speed weapon which is close enough for "2.9"
When unhasted I'll use (not sure if KC is usable with this)
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
When heroism, rapid fire or haste pot is up I'll switch to
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
+
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Did I forget or misunderstand something?
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Originally Posted by Osse
I've decided to switch from BM to SV for Sunwell and have tried to absorb as much information as I can from the last 15 pages of this thread. So far the most suiting theory for me seems to be the following:
I have "BT on farm since autumn"-gear (armory seems to be bugging) I have 20-30ms and 60fps during raids. 0/28/33 spec (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) 37 passive haste and 3.0 speed weapon which is close enough for "2.9" When unhasted I'll use (not sure if KC is usable with this) /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() When heroism, rapid fire or haste pot is up I'll switch to /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() + /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot Did I forget or misunderstand something? |
Now this is just me, but i'd spec " WH Calculator "
And for macro when hasted i'd use
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast Lightning Breath /console Sound_EnableSFX 1
In normal (none hasted) my macro goes
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast Lightning Breath /console Sound_EnableSFX 1
And hi all, first time poster.
How I understand it having 2.22 weapon speed is not good for 3:2 or 1:1.5 so do you have any wws's to back up the "2000 ish" dps?
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Originally Posted by Zexyhunter
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And for macro when hasted i'd use/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast Lightning Breath /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
In normal (none hasted) my macro goes/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast Lightning Breath /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
| With an MS ~150ish i'm around 2000,Dps most of the fights. |
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Originally Posted by Sore82
but a lot of times it has to do with group make up.
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So we are quite happy hunters in our guild and can push it quite a bit.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
For Sunwell, that spec may end up hurting you a little bit. You do have 3/3 EW, which is important, but you have 0/3 in TotH...which is a HUGE mana back talent for Survival Hunters.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
You have the points in Efficiency, which is good...but it has been proven time and time again that the points in IAotH are not worth it over specing down to Barrage in the Marks tree. The extra haste from IAotH is not enough to make it valuable, and the randomness of the procs makes it an amazingly annoying talent for us, since we have to switch macros every time we would get it. Not worth it imo.
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Sorry for short answers, raid break atm.
Well I've been trying out some different macros and different rotations the past few days and I can't really seem to get anything nailed down that shows me outstanding dps other than the 2:1 /cast /cast spam macro. Now I do run into some problems with it getting stuck not letting another auto shot go off for long streaks of steady shots, think I've counted up to 9 while testing on banish mobs, but overall I've seen higher dps in raids with that than with any castsequence macro or 1:1.5 rotation.
Now I probably should take some more time to really get my manual weaving skills up to speed but its been so long since I've had to weave something that I've lost my edge for it.
Considering that, I also manage to get a shaman in my group and have a dragonspine trophy to play with so I'm gonna try a real heavy haste build with imp aoth, dst procs, haste pots, zerking, 1 rapid fire every 3 min, and hopefully someone will have drums in my grp.
I'm wondering how many people have tried this out in some fights and what your dps looks like through out the fight.
Now I probably should take some more time to really get my manual weaving skills up to speed but its been so long since I've had to weave something that I've lost my edge for it.
Considering that, I also manage to get a shaman in my group and have a dragonspine trophy to play with so I'm gonna try a real heavy haste build with imp aoth, dst procs, haste pots, zerking, 1 rapid fire every 3 min, and hopefully someone will have drums in my grp.
I'm wondering how many people have tried this out in some fights and what your dps looks like through out the fight.
I started out with 0/28/33 because there's a retri pala in the raid and I always have SP so mana is not an issue. :p
Dont have working dmg meters yet so cant tell much information so far.
Dont have working dmg meters yet so cant tell much information so far.
I know recount has a working version for 2.4 if you are running into problems with other dmg meters.
How much haste?
First time poster, and I love this thread. I've been a survival hunter for a while and lots of good little tidbits in here. I have a question about the new haste gear from ZA and the new badge loot.
My guild is up to Kael, so I have no MH/BT loot (although Winterchill is likely dying tonight.....not too happy about the removal of the attunement in 2.4, but we'll take it if it's offered I suppose ). I am very happy with my 1:1.5 shot rotation using IAS and the Sunfury Bow (all arcane, no multi). I'm always at or near the top of the DMs on a raid, which I've been pleasantly surprised with considering I'm SV.
However, I have no idea how all this new haste gear from ZA and the new badge loot will affect me. Should I be avoiding it like the plague? Should I be getting as much as I can and hope for a 1:1 like the BM guys have? Has anyone posted here about the use of haste with a SV spec and I missed it?
I think gettting to 1:1 as surivval would be incredible, but I actually have no idea how much haste I'd need (or what weapon to go for), or if that's even possible.
Thanks in advance for any feedback or advice.
My guild is up to Kael, so I have no MH/BT loot (although Winterchill is likely dying tonight.....not too happy about the removal of the attunement in 2.4, but we'll take it if it's offered I suppose ). I am very happy with my 1:1.5 shot rotation using IAS and the Sunfury Bow (all arcane, no multi). I'm always at or near the top of the DMs on a raid, which I've been pleasantly surprised with considering I'm SV.
However, I have no idea how all this new haste gear from ZA and the new badge loot will affect me. Should I be avoiding it like the plague? Should I be getting as much as I can and hope for a 1:1 like the BM guys have? Has anyone posted here about the use of haste with a SV spec and I missed it?
I think gettting to 1:1 as surivval would be incredible, but I actually have no idea how much haste I'd need (or what weapon to go for), or if that's even possible.
Thanks in advance for any feedback or advice.
Well from what I've seen, with imp aspect of the hawk proc, and dst proc, I've been able to keep a 1:1 ratio. Same with rapid fire and drums or drums and haste pot, otherwise im using 1:1.5. Thinking im gonna go back to 41/20 and non-hasted with just haste cons for 1:1 though because the proc rate on dst and imp aoth seems alot lower than it used to be.
I tried modeling a haste/agility set (it had ~260 haste) in Cheeky's spreadsheet recently, and running it with 3:2 or a 1:1 rotation it always came up with less dps than a regular set with my current hand-weaving 1.5:1. Just thinking about it logically, a haste set is trading dps stats like crit and ArP for that haste, and the return is still firing almost the same number of shots as a 1.5:1, just different shots. The 10% damage bonus on steady isn't enough to warrant having 260 'wasted' stat points on gear. However a little bit of haste gear may still be beneficial for tightening up a rotation. Overall the loot in Sunwell is pretty disappointing for Survival hunters. Most items have haste or hit rating and they are both stats we need very little of. I'm going to end up with an ArP set (another weak stat) just because it's the only viable option.
2:1
Sorry if this has been answered before, but what exactly is a 2:1 rotation?
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Originally Posted by Gurth
I would add a few things you are missing:
- 2:1 react much better with haste. It will drop to 3:2 or 1:1 automatically once you're hasted. - Since it's much more mana efficient it CAN, and should imo, be used with KC. That adds a bit of dps even as Survival - Keeping in mind the above 2 points, 7-20-34 is a very solid build, generally better than 0-20-41 unless the fight is short enough to benefit a lot from the extra rapid fire - Armor penetration will be used at full potential In sunwell prospective getting 5% haste will be really easy, and while not affecting much your performance in unhasted situation, with 15% haste from IaotH it will put you in the same situation as unhasted BM hunters producing a 3:2. Also i'd like to add that getting stuck on steadyshots with the macro is just a matter of getting used to it, you may be spamming the macro too fast or just have the feeling of it, check your final results for better reading your performance. I've just recently switched to 7/21/33 and must say my performance are getting better and better. I still have to try the 20/41 tho, so i don't have a direct comparison with it yet. As an example here is one of the latest raids i did (we do rotate a lot lately to gear up as best as possible), 1600 DPS on Rage. Nothing to scream about but if you look at buffs you'll notice i had only 1 BM hunter buff and 1 heroism and had to move once for death and decay. I did not used KC either, probably that would have added 60-70DPS more. I was using Legionkiller at the time, BBS dropped for me that raid and have yet to test it in a real situation Wow Web Stats |
2:1 is:
Steady, Steady, Auto
Steady, Steady, Auto
Rinse & Repeat
From some more spreadsheet analysis I have come to the conclusions:
- As Gurth suggested, 7/20/33 is superior to 0/20/41 if you are going to use a 2:1 rotation
- A few haste items are okay, such as the new JC ring, clutch of demise, and cloak of fiends, & duplicitous Guise... but in chest/gloves/leggs and other major slots you will want to avoid haste items for superior agility/armor penetration
- DST is godly for 2:1
- Gurth what macro do you use for this? Thanks for the WWS, post some more logs if you get the chance!
Just looking at our logs, I couldn't find any recent ones of Rage cause i've missed a few raids.
On Azgalor a while back I pulled 1256 DPS with no group buffs and wearing 3 or 4 pieces of season 2/3 pvp gear at the time...my gear has gotten better recently. You pulled 1159 with much better gear.... some more comparisons would be useful.
Here's my WWS on that night.
Vasilii WWS
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Female Tauren
Sorry if this has been answered before, but what exactly is a 2:1 rotation?
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So the current most used rotations would be:
1:1 = 1 Steady Shot : 1 Auto-Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
1.5:1 = Steady Shot + Arcane Shot/Multi-Shot : Auto-Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
2:1 = 2 Steady Shots : 1 Auto-Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
3:2 = 3 Steady Shots : 2 Auto-Shots
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Its all based on how much haste you have, and your talent spec. For most MM/Surv builds during a period of 0 +haste, a 1.5:1 rotation is pretty common. It will depend on if you put points in iAS and such. For BM spec's, the most common non-extra haste (other than talents) rotation right now is 3:2.
These rotations obviously change when you get +haste effects. For example, being Survival, my normal rotation is the 1.5:1 rotations. However, when I get +haste effects like Heroism or Rapid Fire, I change my rotation to a 3:2 or 1:1 rotation get push my DPS higher.
As you can see, the 1:1, 2:1 and 3:2 macros are exactly the same. They will change accordingly based on how much haste you have. A minimal amount of haste will do the 2:1 rotation; a little more will lead to the 3:2 and a large amount of +haste will lead to 1:1. 1:1 is the most DPS output, as if you get to that point you will see you are firing the shots off exceptionally fast.
And finally, if you are looking for more information regarding rotations, I would highly recommend looking here:
[Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated
As it is filled with a TON of information regarding all of our rotation, how they work, and what will work best for you.
Last edited by Sore82 : 03/27/08 at 3:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
- A few haste items are okay, such as the new JC ring, clutch of demise, and cloak of fiends, & duplicitous Guise... but in chest/gloves/leggs and other major slots you will want to avoid haste items for superior agility/armor penetration
- DST is godly for 2:1 |
Using a 3.0 bow, you'd need at least ~30% haste to make a 1:1 rotation with the same dps as a 2:1 rotation.
I've read most of the posts in this thread, but imo you're relying a little too much on cheeky's in terms of rotation. It's a lot more accurate if you simply log all your shots during a 2 minutes cycle on dr. boom and look the dps up on sws/recount.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
A minimal amount of haste will do the 3:2 rotation; a little more will lead to the 2:1
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Originally Posted by Rasher
I always though hunters had a 1.5s gcd, so whats the point of using haste with a 2:1 rotation? Having only a little haste doesn't let you cast a 2:1 rotation any faster.
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Originally Posted by Rasher
I've read most of the posts in this thread, but imo you're relying a little too much on cheeky's in terms of rotation. It's a lot more accurate if you simply log all your shots during a 2 minutes cycle on dr. boom and look the dps up on sws/recount.
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Originally Posted by volant
I tried modeling a haste/agility set (it had ~260 haste) in Cheeky's spreadsheet recently, and running it with 3:2 or a 1:1 rotation it always came up with less dps than a regular set with my current hand-weaving 1.5:1. Just thinking about it logically, a haste set is trading dps stats like crit and ArP for that haste, and the return is still firing almost the same number of shots as a 1.5:1, just different shots. The 10% damage bonus on steady isn't enough to warrant having 260 'wasted' stat points on gear. However a little bit of haste gear may still be beneficial for tightening up a rotation. Overall the loot in Sunwell is pretty disappointing for Survival hunters. Most items have haste or hit rating and they are both stats we need very little of. I'm going to end up with an ArP set (another weak stat) just because it's the only viable option.
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Does anyone know specifically how much haste you need to go from a 3.0 speed weapon down to 2:1/3:2. Obviously 1:1 would be unobtainable with just gear, so I imagine a 1:1 would just be 3:2 haste + Bloodlust or Rapid Fire.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Vasilii
On Azgalor a while back I pulled 1256 DPS with no group buffs and wearing 3 or 4 pieces of season 2/3 pvp gear at the time...my gear has gotten better recently. You pulled 1159 with much better gear.... some more comparisons would be useful. Here's my WWS on that night. |
Edit: Oh yeah, macro i was using is the standard
/cast !Autoshot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exsits] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorFrame:Clear()
I'm still not sure if adding a line for kill command is worth, i have the feeling it delay autos sometimes. If i understood it correctly it happens when it goes off after second steady, delaying auto to the point it doesn't go off and i have 3 steady in a row. Ideally you want KC between the steadys but it's impossible to macro it and you have to throw in it manually. Take this with care tho, i'm still looking into it and it might be totally wrong.
Last edited by Gurth : 03/28/08 at 7:36 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Jobby
Actually, haste does allow you to use the 2:1 faster. The more haste you have, the faster the second steady shot in the rotation will cast, and since autoshot isn't affected by GCD, the sooner the second steady finishes, the sooner that auto can start casting. And while the auto is casting, the GCD from the second steady should finish refreshing, allowing you to spam for the first steady in the next rotation as soon as the auto is finished casting.
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The concept is still true tho, you cannot fire more than 1 steady every 1,5s, no matter how much haste you get.
One more thing, reading posts recently it seems to me that most hunters misconcept autoshot cast time. What makes 2:1 and 3:2 viable is the new autoshot mechanics introduced in 2.3.
Autoshot WILL use its cast time during steadyshot cast and will go off as soon steady cast finish (probably affected by latency too). If autoshot would wait to cast that steady finished its casting unsig a 3:2 or 2:1 would be a nonsense.
Last edited by Gurth : 03/28/08 at 8:38 AM.
Gurth any chance to test out the 0/20/41 spec yet.
I am trying to distract myself from the super OOM problems I am seeing since 2.4 and toying with specs. I think we have reached the point where we have a pretty solid base for our specs and are now looking at how best to spend the last 8 points. The base I speak of is 0/20/33 i.e. full mortal shots (with effciency or imp mark depending on raid needs) and 3/3 EW (Tier 1 and 2 largely at personal discretion).
I have not tried and imp Hawk based spec in a while and would be interested to hear your feedback on how this compares with the 20/41.
I am trying to distract myself from the super OOM problems I am seeing since 2.4 and toying with specs. I think we have reached the point where we have a pretty solid base for our specs and are now looking at how best to spend the last 8 points. The base I speak of is 0/20/33 i.e. full mortal shots (with effciency or imp mark depending on raid needs) and 3/3 EW (Tier 1 and 2 largely at personal discretion).
I have not tried and imp Hawk based spec in a while and would be interested to hear your feedback on how this compares with the 20/41.
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Originally Posted by Gurth
Autoshot WILL use its cast time during steadyshot cast and will go off as soon steady cast finish (probably affected by latency too). If autoshot would wait to cast that steady finished its casting unsig a 3:2 or 2:1 would be a nonsense.
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I'm almost positive you are wrong. Auto Shot still has its own, independent cast time. What happens in steady-spam macros is that there is a disconnect between your GCD (client) and actual casts (server) where there is the ability to squeeze out 2 Steady Shots in less than 1.5s total time. I also believe Auto Shot's cast time is being effected by haste (like any other cast) and going off faster than 0.5s.
But I have seen no evidence that the cast time is simultaneous with Steady Shot. If so, you basically have non-interfering shots, the holy grail of Hunter mechanics.
The way I've always seen the 2.3 autoshot cast time is that any shot queued up during that time is just held off until autoshot itself goes off, this goes for instants as well.
For example, say you click Arcane Shot with .3 seconds left on Auto Shot. The GCD will be triggered, but Arcane Shot (and it's cooldown) is held off until Auto Shot finally goes off. A Steady Shot which is queued up at 1.8 seconds left on Auto Shot, would still go off at .3 seconds and Auto Shot would remain unaffected. However, a Steady Shot queued up at .3 seconds on Auto Shot will be held off until Auto Shot goes off, but GCD will be triggered .3 seconds earlier. So it would appear as if the GCD is faster than Steady Shot.
This change, which opened up certain rotation possibilities also, I believe, led to the dreaded "stuck Auto Shot" bug (which still very much exists in 2.4 despite Blizzards claim to fix it). Where an instant is queued up at sub-.5 seconds on Auto Shot, and in that half second, the target becomes unavailable, and the shot is infinitely held off. The only way to fix it is to find a new target and make sure that skill gets used (which can be a hassle if the locked skill is Kill Command).
For example, say you click Arcane Shot with .3 seconds left on Auto Shot. The GCD will be triggered, but Arcane Shot (and it's cooldown) is held off until Auto Shot finally goes off. A Steady Shot which is queued up at 1.8 seconds left on Auto Shot, would still go off at .3 seconds and Auto Shot would remain unaffected. However, a Steady Shot queued up at .3 seconds on Auto Shot will be held off until Auto Shot goes off, but GCD will be triggered .3 seconds earlier. So it would appear as if the GCD is faster than Steady Shot.
This change, which opened up certain rotation possibilities also, I believe, led to the dreaded "stuck Auto Shot" bug (which still very much exists in 2.4 despite Blizzards claim to fix it). Where an instant is queued up at sub-.5 seconds on Auto Shot, and in that half second, the target becomes unavailable, and the shot is infinitely held off. The only way to fix it is to find a new target and make sure that skill gets used (which can be a hassle if the locked skill is Kill Command).
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Originally Posted by Threepi
The way I've always seen the 2.3 autoshot cast time is that any shot queued up during that time is just held off until autoshot itself goes off, this goes for instants as well.
For example, say you click Arcane Shot with .3 seconds left on Auto Shot. The GCD will be triggered, but Arcane Shot (and it's cooldown) is held off until Auto Shot finally goes off. A Steady Shot which is queued up at 1.8 seconds left on Auto Shot, would still go off at .3 seconds and Auto Shot would remain unaffected. However, a Steady Shot queued up at .3 seconds on Auto Shot will be held off until Auto Shot goes off, but GCD will be triggered .3 seconds earlier. So it would appear as if the GCD is faster than Steady Shot. This change, which opened up certain rotation possibilities also, I believe, led to the dreaded "stuck Auto Shot" bug (which still very much exists in 2.4 despite Blizzards claim to fix it). Where an instant is queued up at sub-.5 seconds on Auto Shot, and in that half second, the target becomes unavailable, and the shot is infinitely held off. The only way to fix it is to find a new target and make sure that skill gets used (which can be a hassle if the locked skill is Kill Command). |
Will go on Dr boom tomorrow and record some combat logs to show you i'm not drunk, which indeed i am at the moment :p
So, has anyone noticed this yet: [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
75 agility on a two-handed staff. Plus 350 armor penetration.
Am I the only one who thinks "Need" when they see that?
Oh and this isn't too bad either: [Staff of Primal Fury]
75 agility on a two-handed staff. Plus 350 armor penetration.
Am I the only one who thinks "Need" when they see that?
Oh and this isn't too bad either: [Staff of Primal Fury]
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Originally Posted by Groggan
So, has anyone noticed this yet: [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
75 agility on a two-handed staff. Plus 350 armor penetration. Am I the only one who thinks "Need" when they see that? Oh and this isn't too bad either: [Staff of Primal Fury] |
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Originally Posted by Jobby
No AP though :< Also, pretty sure feral druids in the raid would castrate a hunter who took it.
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I just wish they would create some high-stat, low dps melee weapons for hunters like they do druids.
rogues dont use daggers anyway.
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Originally Posted by Iluminati
rogues dont use daggers anyway.
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But yeah, 2x [Shiv of Exsanguination] will probably be the best melee weapons out there. Especially with the benefit of double mana oils. Also, wasn't there supposed to be a DPS oil that adds AP or something? Anyone know what happened to that or how to get them?
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Heya all, Ive been Sv for a long time now. My guild has cleared MH and are working on Illidan in BT. I think my gear is pretty good, armory here The World of Warcraft Armory.
The problem I am having is that I don't feel like my dps is where it should be. I really think its due to my shot rotations that I use but I'm still unsure. Here is a link to our Wow Web Stats.
Few things to note, yes i know i didnt socket my shoulders right for SV, i went through a brief phase where I was going to spec MM, but I changed my mind and I havent been able to regem them with BT gems My main shot rotation macro is this:
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Thats the one i used on bosses and such. I have this one that ive toyed around with, but it just clips everything and doesnt actually weave.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Other than that I would love to have any ideas.
*note about my spec, I normally don't have much of a mana issue(I either squeak by with >1000 mana at the end or have to pop in AotV at the last 30-45 seconds of a boss), and the last respec I messed up(I arena during off times). I normally have one point in TotH.
The problem I am having is that I don't feel like my dps is where it should be. I really think its due to my shot rotations that I use but I'm still unsure. Here is a link to our Wow Web Stats.
Few things to note, yes i know i didnt socket my shoulders right for SV, i went through a brief phase where I was going to spec MM, but I changed my mind and I havent been able to regem them with BT gems My main shot rotation macro is this:
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Thats the one i used on bosses and such. I have this one that ive toyed around with, but it just clips everything and doesnt actually weave.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Other than that I would love to have any ideas.
*note about my spec, I normally don't have much of a mana issue(I either squeak by with >1000 mana at the end or have to pop in AotV at the last 30-45 seconds of a boss), and the last respec I messed up(I arena during off times). I normally have one point in TotH.
Last edited by Evil-Homer! : 03/30/08 at 7:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Evil-Homer!
Heya all, Ive been Sv for a long time now. My guild has cleared MH and are working on Illidan in BT. I think my gear is pretty good, armory here The World of Warcraft Armory.
The problem I am having is that I don't feel like my dps is where it should be. I really think its due to my shot rotations that I use but I'm still unsure. Here is a link to our Wow Web Stats. Few things to note, yes i know i didnt socket my shoulders right for SV, i went through a brief phase where I was going to spec MM, but I changed my mind and I havent been able to regem them with BT gems My main shot rotation macro is this: /castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Thats the one i used on bosses and such. I have this one that ive toyed around with, but it just clips everything and doesnt actually weave. /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Other than that I would love to have any ideas. *note about my spec, I normally don't have much of a mana issue(I either squeak by with >1000 mana at the end or have to pop in AotV at the last 30-45 seconds of a boss), and the last respec I messed up(I arena during off times). I normally have one point in TotH. |
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
macro can morph cleanly from 3:2 to 2:1 and finally to 1:1.
The second macro you listed will seem to clip, but in reality it is just delaying (and it seems allowing the cast times to begin during the shot that is delaying things). So, your arcane or multi shot will push the auto shot, but only a little. This is OK I gather.
It seems to me, that the ideal way of thinking about shot rotations now would be to find which of your shots does the most damage and prioritize that shot so that you fire it as soon as it is off cooldown. So, say your multi shot does the most damage, ideally you would want it to fire every time it is available immediately, even at the cost of delaying another shot for the cast time of multi. That's why a 3:2 rotation works so well for BM, even though it would seem that it would be better not to delay the auto shot.
Is that right??
I've heard mention of a crit cap. I've never heard it in terms of hunters before only to melee. Is there such a thing and how/why does it work?
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Originally Posted by ilunis1
I've heard mention of a crit cap. I've never heard it in terms of hunters before only to melee. Is there such a thing and how/why does it work?
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So if a duel wielder had a 25% chance to miss, a 25% chance to be glanced and a 10% change to be dodged, that leaves only 40% of attacks that can crit. So more than 40% crit would not be effective on white attacks.
Those numbers are obviously way out of whack, but I think this is the principle behind the melee 'crit cap', and why it would not apply to hunters (unless afflicted with a -hit% debuff, assuming a 2 roll system(?))
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Groggan
So, has anyone noticed this yet: [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
75 agility on a two-handed staff. Plus 350 armor penetration. Am I the only one who thinks "Need" when they see that? Oh and this isn't too bad either: [Staff of Primal Fury] |
I tried these out against my current 1H and 2H weapon choices with using my standard raid buffs with no target debuffs.
With [Halberd of Desolation]: I have 1397.60 DPS, 113.83 s to OOM, and 295.06 EW AP.
With [Trollbane]*^: 1400.08 DPS, 113.89 s to OOM, and 296.68 EW AP
With 2x [Netherbane]*: 1394.23 DPS, 113.85 s to OOM, and 295.38 EW AP
With [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]*: 1409.24 DPS, 114.07 s to OOM, and 301.84 EW AP
With [Staff of Primal Fury]*: 1389.70 DPS, 113.78 s to OOM, and 293.45 EW AP
* Lost 30 HR from Halberd to fall 20 HR below cap, so had to replace [Ring of the Recalcitrant] with [Ring of Deceitful Intent] to get 1 below hit cap.
^ With 2 [Delicate Crimson Spinel] socketed (which I do not have yet but will once the 2.4 badge vendor opens up since guild is only allowing epic gems for T6 instance gear)
[Staff of Primal Fury] is a downgrade for me.
As can be seen, the [Stanchion of Primal Instinct] is actually a pretty good upgrade for me at this time; however, I think that a hunter should be passing on this to feral druids that want it since the item is really meant for them. I would have no problem fighting for it against a Moonkin though since the item is just as good for them as us with how they should be fighting.
It is also better than (at least for the boss debuffs I used):
[Item 'apolyon, the soul-render' not found!]*%: 1414.26 DPS, 113.25 s to OOM, 285.94 EW AP (good personal DPS, ~+5, bad raid DPS, ~-33)
[Shiv of Exsanguination]x2*: 1417.47 DPS, 113.85 s to OOM, 295.38 EW AP (good personal DPS, ~+8, bad raid DPS, ~-15)
% With 3 [Delicate Crimson Spinel] socketed
However, there are better survival hunter options out there, for me these include:
[Shivering Felspine]*$: 1422.46, 112.41 s to OOM, 297.76 EW AP (good personal DPS, ~+13, bad raid DPS, ~-10)
$ With a [Delicate Crimson Spinel] socketed.
There may be more, but this is all the time I have ATM. And yes, I realize that much of [Shivering Felspine] benefit is from the haste and that under some situations that haste can end up making this item inferior.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/31/08 at 2:05 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by Evil-Homer!
Heya all, Ive been Sv for a long time now. My guild has cleared MH and are working on Illidan in BT. I think my gear is pretty good, armory here The World of Warcraft Armory.
The problem I am having is that I don't feel like my dps is where it should be. I really think its due to my shot rotations that I use but I'm still unsure. Here is a link to our Wow Web Stats. Few things to note, yes i know i didnt socket my shoulders right for SV, i went through a brief phase where I was going to spec MM, but I changed my mind and I havent been able to regem them with BT gems My main shot rotation macro is this: /castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() *note about my spec, I normally don't have much of a mana issue(I either squeak by with >1000 mana at the end or have to pop in AotV at the last 30-45 seconds of a boss), and the last respec I messed up(I arena during off times). I normally have one point in TotH. |
Head: Since this is your only T5 piece, I would suggest using the [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] if you can get it instead. It is much better.
Neck, Belt, Ring: [Choker of Vile Intent], [Girdle of the Prowler], [Necklace of the Deep] - I realize that you have these out-dated items to help you make the hit cap and that to do so you often have to make less than ideal choices until you have better options. Definitely a priority is to get better hit options so that these can be replaced since they are a significant loss in personal DPS and EW AP.
Concerning your spec, I am a fan of the 0/20/41 but realize that Barrage builds work good for folks too. The only suggested change I have concerns the 10 points you have in the 2nd MM tier. If you need to keep IHM, I would suggest reallocating 4 of the 5 in Efficiency (leave the last one in Efficiency to still get CE and provide some mana) as:
- 1/3 TotH: This gives you your mana efficiency with spending less points. 5/5 Efficiency is 10%. 2/3 TotH at our gear levels provides more mana. For me it provides about 13.82% (but I also have 5/5 MT). So that is +3.82% mana with being able to spend 3 points someplace else. Unfortunately, if you want to keep 2/2 in CE and 3/3 EW, you can't get 2/3 TotH, but 1/3 TotH and 1/5 Efficiency provides roughly 8.5% with the 0/27/34 build.
- 2/2 in RK: This allows you to do RF more often; and thus, is an increase in DPS.
- 2/2 in GftT: Gives your pet more focus so that it can do more damage, increasing DPS.
If you want to keep at around or better than the 10% mana efficiency you have now with keeping 2/2 CE, you can move a point from GftT if you are not using your pet as much in MH/BT into Efficiency to get above 10%.
If you really like your spec as is, another option I would suggest is moving that 5th point in Efficiency (it is a free point) to either TotH for about 4.5% more mana or, if mana is not a concern, to RWS for more damage.
Concerning your DPS, I didn't look at the overall numbers since they are very misleading depending on how much you have to move and stay off the ideal rotation. I looked at Teron Gorefiend since that is mostly stand and shoot. Your DPS for that fight seems appropriate for your gear and your group makeup.
From what I saw (I didn't look at the whole log), your macro seems to be implementing your rotation well. I did see a few places where autoshot chained consecutively, but I believe these were all probably times you were moving since your rotation appeared to start up from scratch after. That explains for the slightly greater amount of autos than expected for the steadies and greater multishots than arcane shots.
However, I really didn't see any haste effects used (I may have missed them). I did a quick search through your log and didn't see Rapid Fire used once or any other haste effects like drums or haste potions. Is there a reason that you are avoiding haste effects? I realize that your macro does not perform well under large haste effects, but you can switch to the steady-auto macro that automatically performs the 2:1, 3:2, or 1:1 rotation depending on the overall haste effect. If its haste effects you control, such as using RF or a haste potion, it is a simple matter to switch the rotation macro after starting the haste effect and switching back when the haste is over. Properly using haste can increase your DPS significantly.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/31/08 at 3:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
So, has anyone noticed this yet: [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
75 agility on a two-handed staff. Plus 350 armor penetration. Am I the only one who thinks "Need" when they see that? Oh and this isn't too bad either: [Staff of Primal Fury] |
[Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
Agi w/ 35agi enchant = 110
Armor Pen = 350
[Shiv of Exsanguination]x2
Agi w/ 20agi enchant x2 = 90
Attack Power = 84
Armor pen = 392
[Shivering Felspine]
Agi w/ 35agi enchant + 10agi socket = 97agi
Attack Power = 120
Haste = 30
Interesting stats on each...they all have there own advantages and disadvantages. I would guess you would need to sit down and figure out how many melee DPS you have in the raid on a normal basis and figure out which ones would be the best for you personally. And obviously it would be easier to get either of the staffs over trying to get 2 of the daggers.
The 30 Haste on the Shivering Felspine should be fine for most people, unless you are, for some reason, stacking several +haste items. +Haste is fine for us in moderate amounts...and will help tighten up the 1.5:1 rotations. You just want to be careful and not add so much +Haste that you are giving up other more important stats (like agility), and getting so much +Haste that it starts to cause clipping with your rotations.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Thats an interesting staff that I did not really consider in my gear set...to make it a little easier, lets break down the stats of what would be considered "equivalent' Sunwell weapons (looking at +DPS stats only, not including stam or anything like that):
... Interesting stats on each...they all have there own advantages and disadvantages. I would guess you would need to sit down and figure out how many melee DPS you have in the raid on a normal basis and figure out which ones would be the best for you personally. And obviously it would be easier to get either of the staffs over trying to get 2 of the daggers. The 30 Haste on the Shivering Felspine should be fine for most people, unless you are, for some reason, stacking several +haste items. +Haste is fine for us in moderate amounts...and will help tighten up the 1.5:1 rotations. You just want to be careful and not add so much +Haste that you are giving up other more important stats (like agility), and getting so much +Haste that it starts to cause clipping with your rotations. |
Is there a formula floating around for the effects of armor penetration for hunters? I know the ones for agi/rap values but haven't noticed any for penetration in my perusals.
Somewhat off topic, but has anyone noticed a change in how autocast works with wind serpents in raids now :? I just got one, and I don't know how it worked before, but it seems to stay in melee and LB when it has the focus now.
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Originally Posted by Jobby
Somewhat off topic, but has anyone noticed a change in how autocast works with wind serpents in raids now :? I just got one, and I don't know how it worked before, but it seems to stay in melee and LB when it has the focus now.
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Yeah, the only time I've seen my wind serpent get out of range to LB is when the target is stunned. Otherwise it just stays in and melee/LB.
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Originally Posted by Shazbot
Yeah, the only time I've seen my wind serpent get out of range to LB is when the target is stunned. Otherwise it just stays in and melee/LB.
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-Whitefyst
First off I really appreciate you taking such a deep look into my question.
1. As far as my spec, I do normally have 1/3 into TotH I just have been crazy busy and haven't had time to spec back again(moving RL). I really like your suggestions with the 27/34 build, I will test that out when I spec again.
2. Gear - Yes its a struggle for me to get hit cap, and i normally run a tad under depending on what boss we are on. I have the S3 Helm, but its pvp gemmed up so I'm a little weary on re-gemming that for pve. Items I just can't seem to get are the Bracers from Rage, the belt from RoS and i keep missing Archimonde so alas I cant get the helm either!
3. Haste - I have none, I only use RF during times where my pot is on CD or I get a bloodlust (i use it right after BL ends to get that added bit of haste effect) Im not a LW so i cant use drums nor am i ever in a group that uses them. I never use haste potions because if i dont spam my mana/ fel mana pots then i will go oom very very quickly.
*Note about haste, I personally have shied away from it because it seems from the testing(Player and Dr. Boom-Although multi shot screws Dr Boom testing up) i have done that it doesnt out damage my 1/1.5 rotation. Multi shot can hit like a truck and it feels when lag and positioning is good that i can get more shots off. I could be wrong though
Unfortunately the hunters in my guild are rarely ever put in a group that does them any good. I call it the meatloaf group because its all the people left over.
thanks again!
First off I really appreciate you taking such a deep look into my question.
1. As far as my spec, I do normally have 1/3 into TotH I just have been crazy busy and haven't had time to spec back again(moving RL). I really like your suggestions with the 27/34 build, I will test that out when I spec again.
2. Gear - Yes its a struggle for me to get hit cap, and i normally run a tad under depending on what boss we are on. I have the S3 Helm, but its pvp gemmed up so I'm a little weary on re-gemming that for pve. Items I just can't seem to get are the Bracers from Rage, the belt from RoS and i keep missing Archimonde so alas I cant get the helm either!
3. Haste - I have none, I only use RF during times where my pot is on CD or I get a bloodlust (i use it right after BL ends to get that added bit of haste effect) Im not a LW so i cant use drums nor am i ever in a group that uses them. I never use haste potions because if i dont spam my mana/ fel mana pots then i will go oom very very quickly.
*Note about haste, I personally have shied away from it because it seems from the testing(Player and Dr. Boom-Although multi shot screws Dr Boom testing up) i have done that it doesnt out damage my 1/1.5 rotation. Multi shot can hit like a truck and it feels when lag and positioning is good that i can get more shots off. I could be wrong though
Unfortunately the hunters in my guild are rarely ever put in a group that does them any good. I call it the meatloaf group because its all the people left over.
thanks again!
First post, so be gentle...
I'd noticed this as well. Recently converted to survival as I've finally picked up the gear and discovered a rotation that wasn't sacrificing hundreds of personal DPS. My rit unbuffed atm sits at around 36.54%, so I thought it was time go out and get a Wind Serpent again. I did exactly that yesterday, but wanted complete control, so macro'd and switched off auto cast of Lightning Breath, assuming this would force it to stay at range. I was surprised to find this wasn't the case, but I can definitely remember the issues you raise there last time I had a WS.
Now the major thing I'm coming to terms with is whether to switch from the 0/20/41 I'm using now and head more towards a 7/20/34 as I begin to look down the road towards Brutallus...
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Originally Posted by Jobby
Somewhat off topic, but has anyone noticed a change in how autocast works with wind serpents in raids now :? I just got one, and I don't know how it worked before, but it seems to stay in melee and LB when it has the focus now.
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Now the major thing I'm coming to terms with is whether to switch from the 0/20/41 I'm using now and head more towards a 7/20/34 as I begin to look down the road towards Brutallus...
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Originally Posted by Nebelwerfer
Now the major thing I'm coming to terms with is whether to switch from the 0/20/41 I'm using now and head more towards a 7/20/34 as I begin to look down the road towards Brutallus... |
I suggest skipping the points in BM and going down into Barrage instead. Again, thats my own personal opinion on the mater.
Any survival logs from Brutallus to give a little comparison?
For now I'm using 0/28/33 with 3.0 speed and 90 passive haste.
Also using macro as I cant really manually weave in that fight as it's... going to get me killed.
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot(Rank 6), Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Gotten 2x 3%, a few 5-6% and one 1% wipe so far. (Yeah, unlucky we didnt get a kill for first reset, too many fucked up attempts)
I was not in the MT group but will be next time we go there as it looks pretty good on paper. Should be over 150 dps increase with the damage loss from FI calculated in it.
On average I was pushing 1600-1650 dps and probably the best average WWS log of my performance in that fight would be this:
Wow Web Stats
Slighly lower crit rate than I should have and a try without agi scroll. With the group changes I should be sporting at 1750-1800 dps.
Would definately be interested in 7/20/33 logs.
For now I'm using 0/28/33 with 3.0 speed and 90 passive haste.
Also using macro as I cant really manually weave in that fight as it's... going to get me killed.
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot(Rank 6), Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Gotten 2x 3%, a few 5-6% and one 1% wipe so far. (Yeah, unlucky we didnt get a kill for first reset, too many fucked up attempts)
I was not in the MT group but will be next time we go there as it looks pretty good on paper. Should be over 150 dps increase with the damage loss from FI calculated in it.
On average I was pushing 1600-1650 dps and probably the best average WWS log of my performance in that fight would be this:
Wow Web Stats
Slighly lower crit rate than I should have and a try without agi scroll. With the group changes I should be sporting at 1750-1800 dps.
Would definately be interested in 7/20/33 logs.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
My personal opinion, for whats its worth, is that iAotH is not worth it. In order for you to use it correctly, you will have to switch shot rotations EVERY time it procs; and because it procs randomly, this means you have to be watching your buff bars all the time. This is the same reason why I hate the DST...its a random haste proc that is enough haste that causes your 1:1.5 rotation to clip...so you HAVE to change to a 3:2/2:1/1:1 rotation. This gets exceptionally annoying on fights like Brut, where you are trying to keep Scorpid up for the tanks, renewing Mark, and using Haste pots/Rapid Fire the second they are up.
I suggest skipping the points in BM and going down into Barrage instead. Again, thats my own personal opinion on the mater. |
WWS Loading... 20/41
Wow Web Stats 7/20/34
Oh you have DST and lots of drums in the group, that's why the dps is so high I guess. :|
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Originally Posted by Jander
I personally gained 70 DPS switching from 20/41 1:1.5 roatation to a 7/20/34 roatation with a /cast Steady Shot spam macro. I even had a superior group makeup for the 20/41 build. If I had gotten the 6% from two more hunters on the Ioth build attempt I would have been over 2200 DPS for a plus 3 minute kill.
WWS Loading... 20/41 Wow Web Stats 7/20/34 |
If you are looking at Brut DPS, specifically, using a fight like Gorefiend is not really the best way to see what is "best" DPS. In Gorefiend, most of the time your are clumped up and are in an ideal DPS group. For Brut it can be a little different (depending on how your guild does it). I know for me, I was in a group with 3 mages and a Shadow Priest, and the BM Hunter was with 3 Warlocks and a Shaman last night when we killed him. With how the groups were done (because the mages were soakers and I wasnt), I was not in range for any Haste Drums at all...the only benefit I got for being in that group was th Shadow Priest (which makes it so I can use Haste pots instead of Mana Pots...so its a slight DPS boost for sure). I pulled out around 1600-1650 DPS, and I consider that GOOD for a fight like Brut.
This thread is full of information on people who have worked out every build and talent you can think of, and most say that the 7 points in BM are not worth it compared to going down into Barrage.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Hey.
First time poster so go easy on me.
I recently got my hands on the DST trinket, and with my current gear i get a loss of 40 in dps by replacing any of my trinkets according to the spreadsheet. I've been reading a lot about it being a superior trinket, but i guess that only applies to BM hunters.
I have 3 trinkets i currently use and it seems that the best combination for me is [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Bloodlust Brooch].
I've included my spreadsheet as well if you want to look at it, in case i'm doing something wrong.
Hunter Spreadsheet (Survival).xls
When hasted i use this macro:
And unhasted i use this one:
I have a 3rd macro as well without Multi-shot that looks the same as the 2nd one i posted.
For the last week i've started to experiment with a /castsequence macro that looks like this:
For me, both /cast and /castsequence macros seems to output the same amount of DPS.
First time poster so go easy on me.
I recently got my hands on the DST trinket, and with my current gear i get a loss of 40 in dps by replacing any of my trinkets according to the spreadsheet. I've been reading a lot about it being a superior trinket, but i guess that only applies to BM hunters.
I have 3 trinkets i currently use and it seems that the best combination for me is [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Bloodlust Brooch].
I've included my spreadsheet as well if you want to look at it, in case i'm doing something wrong.
Hunter Spreadsheet (Survival).xls
When hasted i use this macro:
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/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast steady shot /cast !Auto Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
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/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
For the last week i've started to experiment with a /castsequence macro that looks like this:
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/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
Last edited by Stonga : 04/02/08 at 8:29 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Sore82
My personal opinion, for whats its worth, is that iAotH is not worth it. In order for you to use it correctly, you will have to switch shot rotations EVERY time it procs; and because it procs randomly, this means you have to be watching your buff bars all the time. This is the same reason why I hate the DST...its a random haste proc that is enough haste that causes your 1:1.5 rotation to clip...so you HAVE to change to a 3:2/2:1/1:1 rotation. This gets exceptionally annoying on fights like Brut, where you are trying to keep Scorpid up for the tanks, renewing Mark, and using Haste pots/Rapid Fire the second they are up.
I suggest skipping the points in BM and going down into Barrage instead. Again, thats my own personal opinion on the mater. |
I just want to clarify some things Sore82 stated. I agree that the uncontrolled haste from DST and IAotH can be problems for survival hunters that are using a 1:1.5 rotation, such as myself, since it screws up the rotation and to be effective you have to watch for the procs to know when to switch to the various steady-auto rotations.
However, if you are a survival hunter that is evolved farther than myself and have the 4 set T6 bonus along with the Ashtongue trinket and are using a 2:1 rotation as your standard rotation with a macro that scales to 3:2 or 1:1 automatically with the amount of haste effects on you, then DST and IAotH can be very effective since they result in more shots and damage without you having to monitor the procs and switch rotations.
@Sore82
I really don't think it is correct to make absolute statements that a Barrage build with a 1:1.5 is always superior. It is true that it is superior in some situations, but I also believe that there are valid situations in which the 0/20/41 1:1.5 hunter or 7/20/34 2:1 hunter can be superior. A lot depends on your gear, your buffs, your group, your available haste effects, your latency, etc. Survival hunter is not one size fits all, and it should not be advertised as such. There are certain builds that perform better under different situations, and a survival hunter should find and use the build that works best for their current situation.
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Originally Posted by Stonga
I recently got my hands on the DST trinket, and with my current gear i get a loss of 40 in dps by replacing any of my trinkets according to the spreadsheet. I've been reading a lot about it being a superior trinket, but i guess that only applies to BM hunters.
I have 3 trinkets i currently use and it seems that the best combination for me is [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Bloodlust Brooch]. I've included my spreadsheet as well if you want to look at it, in case i'm doing something wrong. |
BTW, I believe your unhasted rotation is not a 1:1.5 rotation. I may be wrong, but I believe that that macro implements a 1:1 rotation with substituting in the various cast random shots when not spammed. When spammed, it should do more than a 1:1 I believe, but that rotation is not guaranteed to be a true 1:1.5 rotation. I believe that the macro you are trying out is an improvement since it will better do the core auto-steadies; however, it still does not always implement a true 1:1.5 when unhasted since it can cast multishot and arcane shot after back to back steadies when their CDs align that way. A good thing about the new macro though is that it does scale with haste. It does the auto-steadies with casting the other specials as they are available. With more and more haste, you just have more auto-steadies betweem specials in general. Although not ideal, I do use this macro in fights in which I need more situational awareness and can't concerntrate as much on manual-weaving; otherwsie, I prefer to manual-weave since that seems to work best for me.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 04/02/08 at 3:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
@Nebelwerfer
However, if you are a survival hunter that is evolved farther than myself and have the 4 set T6 bonus along with the Ashtongue trinket and are using a 2:1 rotation as your standard rotation with a macro that scales to 3:2 or 1:1 automatically with the amount of haste effects on you, then DST and IAotH can be very effective since they result in more shots and damage without you having to monitor the procs and switch rotations. |
I have 4piece T6, and have tested the 2:1 rotation several times, and have seen fro myself this problem. The Auto Shot getting stuck issue only seems to occur when you are attempting a +0 Haste rotation, and EVERY time you shoot off a Steady without the Auto going off, you are losing DPS. So, the only way to resolve the problem is to add some passive +haste. This, in turn, becomes a whole new set of issues, because Blizzard has poorly itemized a good deal of the BT +haste items, making you give up a good amount of stats for a minimal amount of +haste. Here is a good example:
[Fists of Mukoa]
vs.
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
or
[Shadow-walker's Cord]
vs.
[Boneweave Girdle]
Both have minimal amounts of Haste on them compared to what the equivalent non-Haste item is. You lose stats like crit, hit and agility.
Now then, with Sunwell here...the itemization is a little better, but not much. The polearm that drops in Sunwell is a solid upgrade for the one in BT, but there are still better options for us for our own personal DPS or for raid wide DPS (which was discussed a page or two back). The craftable +Haste ring is also a good upgrade for most people...however the Badge one is also very good.
Think of it like this, Drums add 80 Haste, and I can still use a solid 1:1.5 rotation while Drums are up...all Drums do are tighten the rotation up to make it even more effective. You would need AT LEAST that much passive haste to make a 2:1 rotation viable. Each of those pieces I linked has around +37 Haste...meaning you need about 3 pieces of +Haste gear to make it "worth it"...while at the same time you are losing out on a good chunk of Agility, crit, hit and various other stats.
If you are referencing those items vs drums, I'd say you only need two pieces of armor to effectively tighten the rotation to pre drums ideal. I'm assuming you are going for 5% In that case, you take one of the two 'sub optimal' items you've listed plus a felspine if you are 3.0 speed, if 2.9 just take the two.
I am reading you correctly, right Sore82? Seeing as the main mechanic behind dps is still speed, not to mention EW upkeep based off of shots, giving up a few stats should be well worth the haste to reach 70-90 passive not including quiver.
I am reading you correctly, right Sore82? Seeing as the main mechanic behind dps is still speed, not to mention EW upkeep based off of shots, giving up a few stats should be well worth the haste to reach 70-90 passive not including quiver.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
@Sore82
I really don't think it is correct to make absolute statements that a Barrage build with a 1:1.5 is always superior. It is true that it is superior in some situations, but I also believe that there are valid situations in which the 0/20/41 1:1.5 hunter or 7/20/34 2:1 hunter can be superior. A lot depends on your gear, your buffs, your group, your available haste effects, your latency, etc. Survival hunter is not one size fits all, and it should not be advertised as such. There are certain builds that perform better under different situations, and a survival hunter should find and use the build that works best for their current situation. |
However, having said that, there are certain specific specs that stand out more than others. I have personally experimented with many of them, and have come to my own conclusions about what works best for me for my specific situations. I have never stated that I know everything there is to know about Survival or what is best for everyone...I am only able to give recommendations based on real-life experience (instead of relying on a spread-sheet to tell me what "should" be the best). I have used Cheekys in the past (and still do for some things), but for the most part I like testing stuff on my own...since every person is different. A spreadsheet can only tell you so much.
Even people like Kurkis (who people consider to be one of the top DPS Survival Hunters in this thread) dont put points into iAotH, nor does he wear any passive +haste gear (closest +haste item he has is a DST). So, take that information however you want.
As for comparing these two WWS let me say that I have month of logs of where I was 20/41 and the one I posted was my absolute best Teron DPS for that build. I realize that WoW isn't a sandbox where I can control every variable without fail. I think its fair to say that if the first week where I use IotH with the 2:1 rotation is 70 DPS better than my best week of 1.5:1, then IotH probably has some merit. You have made some negative post about it that may lead some people to never try it. As far as Kurkis dismissing it, he admitted himself that he hadn't tried the build much in one of his post. Feel free to do a post history on him if you want to confirm it for yourself. To suggest that I myself haven't tried every build out there is pretty presumptuous. I have tried 20/41, 28/33 with barrage, 28/33 with an arcane only rotation with IAS, and 7/20/34. The fact of the matter is that with high end gear, 7/20/34 has produced the best results for me, while also having the best mana effiecentcy.
As far as posting Teron #s goes, until a week ago Teron was the benchmark ppl used for DPS. As far as me having the group I did and me doing #1 DPS what can I say. I can't help that my guild goes out of its way for group synergy. The melee group is Enhance Shaman, Ret Pld, MS Warrior 2X Rogue. The caster DPS is a SPriest, Destruction Locks/Mages and a Elemental or Resto Shaman. The hunter group is a resto shaman, 2-3 hunters and a feral druid. What group are we gimping to get the group makeup I have? One could argue for a feral instead of a pld in the melee group. The fact of the matter is that a Ret Pld need windfury so he has to go there. The other thing is that any smart rogue would pick 2% damage + 3% crit versus 5% crit from a feral druid anyway. I understand that our rogues and warlocks should be higher. On most fights the warlocks would be higher, I think they either died or got threat capped on both of those logs. I can't make excuses for our melee. That being said 2100 DPS would still be 2100 DPS if I were 10th. In fact if our melee didn't suck and we got him down faster then my DPS would have been higher than 2100.
I'm going to say that Kurkis had it right about trying to stay as hasted as much as possible. He had a similar group makeup to what I have. He posted DPS numbers like mine and he got flamed so bad that he has quit posting to my knowledge. Between the people saying SV hunters can never keep up with BM hunters and other people saying he could only put out those numbers because of his group, he has quit posting and the community as a whole has to do without any knowledge he could have shared.
For people having problems chaining Auto Shots as SV using a 2:1 macro try replacing /cast Steady Shot with /castsequence Steady Shot. The added lag from using castsequence gave auto the time to fire for me. It also let me use KC without an auto being missed. I had both these problems with a /cast command. I was to the point where I was ready to give up on SV. My previous best 1.5:1 20/41 run was 2050 DPS. I pulled 2550 DPS as BM without trying hard. I knew I had to get my SV DPS up to be able to justify running as SV. A 2.1 macro with IotH did it for me.
As far as posting Teron #s goes, until a week ago Teron was the benchmark ppl used for DPS. As far as me having the group I did and me doing #1 DPS what can I say. I can't help that my guild goes out of its way for group synergy. The melee group is Enhance Shaman, Ret Pld, MS Warrior 2X Rogue. The caster DPS is a SPriest, Destruction Locks/Mages and a Elemental or Resto Shaman. The hunter group is a resto shaman, 2-3 hunters and a feral druid. What group are we gimping to get the group makeup I have? One could argue for a feral instead of a pld in the melee group. The fact of the matter is that a Ret Pld need windfury so he has to go there. The other thing is that any smart rogue would pick 2% damage + 3% crit versus 5% crit from a feral druid anyway. I understand that our rogues and warlocks should be higher. On most fights the warlocks would be higher, I think they either died or got threat capped on both of those logs. I can't make excuses for our melee. That being said 2100 DPS would still be 2100 DPS if I were 10th. In fact if our melee didn't suck and we got him down faster then my DPS would have been higher than 2100.
I'm going to say that Kurkis had it right about trying to stay as hasted as much as possible. He had a similar group makeup to what I have. He posted DPS numbers like mine and he got flamed so bad that he has quit posting to my knowledge. Between the people saying SV hunters can never keep up with BM hunters and other people saying he could only put out those numbers because of his group, he has quit posting and the community as a whole has to do without any knowledge he could have shared.
For people having problems chaining Auto Shots as SV using a 2:1 macro try replacing /cast Steady Shot with /castsequence Steady Shot. The added lag from using castsequence gave auto the time to fire for me. It also let me use KC without an auto being missed. I had both these problems with a /cast command. I was to the point where I was ready to give up on SV. My previous best 1.5:1 20/41 run was 2050 DPS. I pulled 2550 DPS as BM without trying hard. I knew I had to get my SV DPS up to be able to justify running as SV. A 2.1 macro with IotH did it for me.
Stupid question quick before I socket it wrong:
If you have 3/3 surefooted and a Draenei race, how much hit rating should you have?
If you have 3/3 surefooted and a Draenei race, how much hit rating should you have?
15.77 x 5 = 79
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Here is a comparison for a Brute kill, Osse:
Wow Web Stats
1947 dps in that kill, I reached well above 2k when not using Scorpid sting though. Scorpid sting I realised is quite a large dps loss, even though I had unlimited mana.
Things I could improve on:
- Scorpid sting (and to a lesser extent, being the Mark hunter) hurts dps by a fair chunk. I dont see how I'm going to get around this though... I am the Survival Hunter after all. The extra GCD every ~20 seconds, and trying to fit it into a manual 1:1.5 really threw me off. I've only been doing 1:1.5 for around a month or two when I specced Survival.
- I didnt have any haste pots, next week I will. (massive fail on my part)
- Only 3 drums over the whole fight. I'm leveling LW atm and our other hunters might too.
- I noticed on my fraps that our Feral druid tank swapped himself out of our group whenever he tanked... to get an imp. He was loosing GoA to do this, and we all lost LotP too. He certainly wont be doing that next week, which will mean double LotP uptime for us hunters too.
- Fraps = fps loss = dps loss
- Being an Aussie hunter (250-400ms, cant use macros even if I wanted to), and frapsing, I made quite a few shot rotation errors. Especially around the re-scorpid and mark applications. I basically didnt hold a true rotation at all, just a GCD squeeze between multi/arcane/scorpid, trying to make sure I got a steady for each auto too (which I didnt).
- I got burn, ~10 seconds of movement.
- I cant use a Wind Serpent. I'd like to, but I dont use a macro so I cant macro Lightning Breath. Although they may be fixed now from what I read in this thread?
I was in an excellent group though. Enhance Shaman, 2x BM hunters, and just under half the time we had a Feral druid. We also had a ret paladin and an arms warrior in the raid, and CoR + CoS. WWS says there was no FF (only 1 cast, and it resisted). ?? Surely our druid isnt that bad... WWS error maybe.
I'm going to aim for at least 2150 next time, given the same group. Btw, one of our BM hunters got 2450ish on a ~4-5 minute attempt. Not too bad at all.
I was looking at other guild's WWS logs, and wow, its embarrassing how bad some other hunters are. Sub 1400 dps as Survival and sub 1700 as BM seem all too common... absolutely terrible even if you're in group 6 on your OWN, let alone some of those hunters having Lust/Agi/LotP!!
Wow Web Stats
1947 dps in that kill, I reached well above 2k when not using Scorpid sting though. Scorpid sting I realised is quite a large dps loss, even though I had unlimited mana.
Things I could improve on:
- Scorpid sting (and to a lesser extent, being the Mark hunter) hurts dps by a fair chunk. I dont see how I'm going to get around this though... I am the Survival Hunter after all. The extra GCD every ~20 seconds, and trying to fit it into a manual 1:1.5 really threw me off. I've only been doing 1:1.5 for around a month or two when I specced Survival.
- I didnt have any haste pots, next week I will. (massive fail on my part)
- Only 3 drums over the whole fight. I'm leveling LW atm and our other hunters might too.
- I noticed on my fraps that our Feral druid tank swapped himself out of our group whenever he tanked... to get an imp. He was loosing GoA to do this, and we all lost LotP too. He certainly wont be doing that next week, which will mean double LotP uptime for us hunters too.
- Fraps = fps loss = dps loss
- Being an Aussie hunter (250-400ms, cant use macros even if I wanted to), and frapsing, I made quite a few shot rotation errors. Especially around the re-scorpid and mark applications. I basically didnt hold a true rotation at all, just a GCD squeeze between multi/arcane/scorpid, trying to make sure I got a steady for each auto too (which I didnt).
- I got burn, ~10 seconds of movement.
- I cant use a Wind Serpent. I'd like to, but I dont use a macro so I cant macro Lightning Breath. Although they may be fixed now from what I read in this thread?
I was in an excellent group though. Enhance Shaman, 2x BM hunters, and just under half the time we had a Feral druid. We also had a ret paladin and an arms warrior in the raid, and CoR + CoS. WWS says there was no FF (only 1 cast, and it resisted). ?? Surely our druid isnt that bad... WWS error maybe.
I'm going to aim for at least 2150 next time, given the same group. Btw, one of our BM hunters got 2450ish on a ~4-5 minute attempt. Not too bad at all.
I was looking at other guild's WWS logs, and wow, its embarrassing how bad some other hunters are. Sub 1400 dps as Survival and sub 1700 as BM seem all too common... absolutely terrible even if you're in group 6 on your OWN, let alone some of those hunters having Lust/Agi/LotP!!
Last edited by Intermission : 04/02/08 at 8:17 PM. Reason: added stuff
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Stonga
Hey.
First time poster so go easy on me. I recently got my hands on the DST trinket, and with my current gear i get a loss of 40 in dps by replacing any of my trinkets according to the spreadsheet. I've been reading a lot about it being a superior trinket, but i guess that only applies to BM hunters. I have 3 trinkets i currently use and it seems that the best combination for me is [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Bloodlust Brooch] which is the combination i'm currently using while raiding. I've included my spreadsheet as well if you want to look at it, in case i'm doing something wrong. Hunter Spreadsheet (Survival).xls |
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Concerning DST, the trinket can be good or bad for you depending mostly on your spec, other gear, and what rotations you normally use and use during the DST proc. In your case in the spreadsheet, your current trinkets do indeed work better for you theoretically since your 1:1.5 rotation is so much better than your 1:1 rotation (1495 to 1178). Thus, switching to the 1:1 rotation, even hasted from DST, provides less DPS than your 1:1.5 rotation.
BTW, I believe your unhasted rotation is not a 1:1.5 rotation. I may be wrong, but I believe that that macro implements a 1:1 rotation with substituting in the various cast random shots when not spammed. When spammed, it should do more than a 1:1 I believe, but that rotation is not guaranteed to be a true 1:1.5 rotation. I believe that the macro you are trying out is an improvement since it will better do the core auto-steadies; however, it still does not always implement a true 1:1.5 when unhasted since it can cast multishot and arcane shot after back to back steadies when their CDs align that way. A good thing about the new macro though is that it does scale with haste. It does the auto-steadies with casting the other specials as they are available. With more and more haste, you just have more auto-steadies between specials in general. Although not ideal, I do use this macro in fights in which I need more situational awareness and can't concentrate as much on manual-weaving; otherwise, I prefer to manual-weave since that seems to work best for me. |
I'm not sure what you mean that my unhasted macro is not a true 1:1.5 macro, but if i'm correct, you mean that i have Steady Shot in the /castrandom part of the macro? This was a mistake from my part. Usually i have Steady Shot in the /cast part of the macro. Sorry about the confusion.
I made a WWS report of todays raid and i think my DPS is so low compared to many others posting in this thread.
Either i'm doing something wrong or my gear is capping my DPS. I guess the former.
I had a Resto Shaman and a BM Hunter in my group today so heroism was used on these bosses and i got Ferocious Inspiration and Agility totem.
Usually on a boss fight i start with a MD to the tank, then i use a 2:1 rotation for about 10-15 seconds. After that i pop rapid fire and [Bloodlust Brooch]. When Rapid Fire runs out, the shaman usually pops heroism, when he does, i use my drums in combination with Heroism. When Heroism runs out, i use Readiness and pop another Rapid Fire. Then i use a haste potion if i don't have mana issues yet. After that i'm back to a 1:1.5 rotation.
But somehow like on Teron, i still can't get past 1600dps.
My ms during raiding is somewhere around 120-200. My FPS is above 40 all the time so that shouldn't impact my DPS.
I used the /castsequence macro tonight by the way.
The macros i'm using is posted a further up on this page.
Last edited by Stonga : 04/02/08 at 9:20 PM. Reason: Forgot to add some information
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I guess it's time to try manually weaving on Brutallus next week as now in feral druid resto shaman group I ended up with 1750 ish dps. The kill itself was rubbish performance from me, had to interrupt casting a lot with extra moving and typing plus I used fel mana pot when I had 80% mana so had to use 2:1 for like a minute.
Would imagine 1850 ish being my cap with the "all in one"-macro in this group. Obviously if the shaman was ench and there was two hunters in the group my dps would be over 2k but that'll never happen.
Will actually test tomorrow if my 90 passive haste is causing clipping issues with the macro as I use a macro that clicks a button up and and every 5ms.
Would imagine 1850 ish being my cap with the "all in one"-macro in this group. Obviously if the shaman was ench and there was two hunters in the group my dps would be over 2k but that'll never happen.
Will actually test tomorrow if my 90 passive haste is causing clipping issues with the macro as I use a macro that clicks a button up and and every 5ms.
Last edited by Osse : 04/02/08 at 9:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Here is a comparison for a Brute kill, Osse:
Wow Web Stats 1947 dps in that kill, I reached well above 2k when not using Scorpid sting though. Scorpid sting I realised is quite a large dps loss, even though I had unlimited mana. |
Wow Web Stats
I was in a group with no Drums available to me, no Feral Druid and no BM Hunter (also no Blood Fury)...yet we have (basically) the same gear, and did almost exactly the same amount of shots. The DPS difference is nearly 300 DPS. Nothing I could really do in that situation. I had a SP and used +Haste Pots when I could...but other than that, I just gotta work with what I get. I was also on Scorpid duty, which I hate doing...but whatever. Im sure in a couple of months when the tanks start getting all the better Sunwell gear, the need for Scorpid will go down and down.
Another thing to note is specs. I feel 0/20/41 is a great raid spec, especially for Brutallus:
6 ---------- 5 ------------ 4 ------------ 3 ------------2 ------------ 1 ----------- 0
---*RF/readiness/RF------------------------*RF-------------------------*readiness/RF.
2 extra Rapid Fires is nothing to sneeze at (as well as the MT crit). That spec would be even better for me if the 2:1/3:2/1:1 macro actually worked!
6 ---------- 5 ------------ 4 ------------ 3 ------------2 ------------ 1 ----------- 0
---*RF/readiness/RF------------------------*RF-------------------------*readiness/RF.
2 extra Rapid Fires is nothing to sneeze at (as well as the MT crit). That spec would be even better for me if the 2:1/3:2/1:1 macro actually worked!
Yeah I sit at a average 1.8k dps average with just goa and imp pack as 0/20/41. The extra rapid fires really do make a huge diff for a steady spam rotation which is what I'm using right now with 78 passive haste and a DST. If Blizz ever fixes auto shot I really think rapid fire spam with haste pot spam will be the top dps with passive haste as a Survival hunter.
The mana efficiency gain from Rapid Fire is great too, on fights with less JoW uptime (eg Kalec).
I go from a 1:1.5 to a 1:1 when rapid is up. This equates to mana efficiency when using only steadyshot, but I can just as easily replace the steadyshot with a multi or even a multi+arcane and slightly clip the next auto (rather than trying to actually do a true 1:1.5 while rapid is up).
I go from a 1:1.5 to a 1:1 when rapid is up. This equates to mana efficiency when using only steadyshot, but I can just as easily replace the steadyshot with a multi or even a multi+arcane and slightly clip the next auto (rather than trying to actually do a true 1:1.5 while rapid is up).
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Osse
15.77 x 5 = 79
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9% is cap and surefooted gives 3%, ergo the 6.
Ah, forgot the 1% from my racial bonus. Thought it only works for my party members and not on myself.
Last edited by Chanii : 04/03/08 at 4:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by Osse
Will actually test tomorrow if my 90 passive haste is causing clipping issues with the macro as I use a macro that clicks a button up and and every 5ms.
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This is with:
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot(Rank 6), Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
For hand-weaving it might be different.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Another thing to note is specs. I feel 0/20/41 is a great raid spec, especially for Brutallus:
6 ---------- 5 ------------ 4 ------------ 3 ------------2 ------------ 1 ----------- 0 ---*RF/readiness/RF------------------------*RF-------------------------*readiness/RF. 2 extra Rapid Fires is nothing to sneeze at (as well as the MT crit). That spec would be even better for me if the 2:1/3:2/1:1 macro actually worked! |
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
I cant even get 3/3 TotH without taking a point out of Mortal Shorts or Expose Weakness (neither of which are worth that kind of loss). I already have enough mana issues when im not in a group with a SP...giving up that talent just really concerns me.
Also, btw, according to your WWS report, you only got off 3 Rapid Fires, where I got off 2, which makes sense as it is a 6min fight and RF is on a 3min cooldown. If done at the right times, our Rapid Fire should be coming back up pretty much right as the fight ends.
And what problems are you having with the 2:1/3:2/1:1 macro while hasted? Have you tried the one I posted a couple pages ago that was a 2 part macro?
Drop kill command and use fel mana pots. Sorted mana issues for me without sacrificing lots of dps. Or then get a retri pala in case you allready dont have one.
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Originally Posted by Osse
My suspicions were right. Using belt of the black eagle instead of shadow-walker's cord with shivering felspine is 4.4% dps increase. So basically, with 3.0 speed weapon it's safe to use 53 haste but 90 is too much. This is with 25-30ms though.
This is with: /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Multi-Shot(Rank 6), Arcane Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() For hand-weaving it might be different. |
This makes some VERY SELECT items much more attractive Find Armor
It is 90 in theory but go to try it in real situation.
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Originally Posted by Dibbler
I've tinkered with this a bit using Cheeky's spreadsheet and have found that the max amount of Haste you want with a 3.0 speed weapon and 0.2 latency is 90 using a 1:1.5 rotation.
This makes some VERY SELECT items much more attractive Find Armor |
[Fang of Kalecgos] - 25 Haste
[Hard Khorium Band] - 28 Haste
[Clutch of Demise] - 30 Haste
and MAYBE [Cloak of Fiends] - 25 Haste
Other things like:
[Embrace of the Phoenix] - 44 Haste
[Carapace of Sun and Shadow] - 38 Haste
[Duplicitous Guise] - 34 Haste
Would also be ok, however you have to consider you still need to have 4piece T6 to get the bonus and that the 2 Leather items will probably get priority to Rogues/Feral Druids over you.
I personally havent seen ANY of those Sunwell items drop yet and we have fully cleared the first 3 bosses 2x so far. So im not in any real rush to start stacking up on haste gear yet.
Dont forget [Shivering Felspine]
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Originally Posted by Osse
Dont forget [Shivering Felspine]
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I'm just going to break down your post into smaller quotes so it's easier for me to reply. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything:
That spec looks good, but I'd personally drop a point in imp FD and put it into Deterrence. Deterrence + Readiness + Deterrence can be very nice for tanking a boss for a few percent (it gives me ~95% dodge/parry when raid buffed), or simply for saving clothies on trash. Also I'd drop entrapment if you're doing Felmyst soon.
I dont know of any Survival spec that can have points in efficiency *and* 5/5 imp HM. You're either Barrage(or even RWS at the loss of TotH) or you're Master Tactician and Readiness in Survival. (Or 7 in BM with 1/3 TotH *and* a loss of Barrage) My two common specs for Survival are:
It's fun to have Scatter + Wyvren sometimes, and it's still a great raiding spec
My pure raid (sunwell) build
I suppose you can drop scatter/wynvren for 2 points.. but if I'm going a serious raid spec I'm doing 0/20/41 anyway.
Ah the good old days of 4 BM hunters and a SP in a group, back in the 2.1 BM-a-thon! These days though, there's no point wasting a SP on hunters when a JoW gives us near unlimited mana. If you dont raid with a ret paladin, and your holy paladins are bad, then there is something more important to look at before slight talent spec adjustments.
I think one of two things may have happened:
- I fucked up somewhere and didnt use my rapid/readiness properly.
- I refreshed my second Rapid Fire just as the first one was running out, so WWS didnt pick up the re-application.
"Steadyshot steadyshot steadyshot steadyshot" etc. It's not just while hasted either, it's all the time, hasted or not. I'm not even using KC or Lightning Breath at all. Simply /cast Steadyshot /cast (!)Autoshot. Oceanic latency I'm sure plays a part. Oceanic = no macros, at least in my experience, if you want to do half decent damage.
The reason why I said "that spec would be even better if the macro worked" is because I currently do a 1:1.5 hand weave rotation suits the Barrage spec a little better, and pure steady/autos suits a Master Tactician/Readiness spec. However I feel the Master Tactician/Readiness spec is better regardless of hand 1:1.5 or steady/auto macro, it's just that each spec optimises a different rotation a little better.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
The problem I have been having with going 0/20/41 is that in order to do so, I have to give up Efficiency. I am the only consistent Hunter in our raids...we have 2 BM Hunters, but they will swap between them on who gets in, while I am usually in all the time. So, that is the main reason why I have the iHM talent. Going 0/20/41 would make me completly lose Efficiency. It would look sorta like this:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator |
I dont know of any Survival spec that can have points in efficiency *and* 5/5 imp HM. You're either Barrage(or even RWS at the loss of TotH) or you're Master Tactician and Readiness in Survival. (Or 7 in BM with 1/3 TotH *and* a loss of Barrage) My two common specs for Survival are:
It's fun to have Scatter + Wyvren sometimes, and it's still a great raiding spec
My pure raid (sunwell) build
I suppose you can drop scatter/wynvren for 2 points.. but if I'm going a serious raid spec I'm doing 0/20/41 anyway.
| I cant even get 3/3 TotH without taking a point out of Mortal Shorts or Expose Weakness (neither of which are worth that kind of loss). I already have enough mana issues when im not in a group with a SP...giving up that talent just really concerns me. |
| Also, btw, according to your WWS report, you only got off 3 Rapid Fires, where I got off 2, which makes sense as it is a 6min fight and RF is on a 3min cooldown. If done at the right times, our Rapid Fire should be coming back up pretty much right as the fight ends. |
- I fucked up somewhere and didnt use my rapid/readiness properly.
- I refreshed my second Rapid Fire just as the first one was running out, so WWS didnt pick up the re-application.
| And what problems are you having with the 2:1/3:2/1:1 macro while hasted? Have you tried the one I posted a couple pages ago that was a 2 part macro? |
The reason why I said "that spec would be even better if the macro worked" is because I currently do a 1:1.5 hand weave rotation suits the Barrage spec a little better, and pure steady/autos suits a Master Tactician/Readiness spec. However I feel the Master Tactician/Readiness spec is better regardless of hand 1:1.5 or steady/auto macro, it's just that each spec optimises a different rotation a little better.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Intermission
That spec looks good, but I'd personally drop a point in imp FD and put it into Deterrence. Deterrence + Readiness + Deterrence can be very nice for tanking a boss for a few percent (it gives me ~95% dodge/parry when raid buffed), or simply for saving clothies on trash. Also I'd drop entrapment if you're doing Felmyst soon.
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First off, we have already killed Felmyst (US 1st), so the fight is nothing new to me. The build I linked there was just a "suggestion" for what I could do...but not something I am really considering atm. As for Deterrence, I understand its usefulness, but at this point, and probably not ever, will I be putting any points into it. FD is far more valuable for myself, so taking a point out of that is not an option.
| I dont know of any Survival spec that can have points in efficiency *and* 5/5 imp HM. You're either Barrage(or even RWS at the loss of TotH) or you're Master Tactician and Readiness in Survival. (Or 7 in BM with 1/3 TotH *and* a loss of Barrage) |
Check out my spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory
0/25/36
I still have full 3/3 EW as well as 3/3 TotH, 3/3 Barrage and everything else that would be "typical" of a standard Survival build. The only thing I have that is missing full points is 3/5 Efficiency...but again, having 3/3 TotH is more valuable to me at this point with my high crit rate.
| Ah the good old days of 4 BM hunters and a SP in a group, back in the 2.1 BM-a-thon! These days though, there's no point wasting a SP on hunters when a JoW gives us near unlimited mana. If you dont raid with a ret paladin, and your holy paladins are bad, then there is something more important to look at before slight talent spec adjustments. |
I understand the value of Ret Pallys, and we do have one...however, we have only 1. So on nights when he is not on, it is not a guarantee I will get into a SP group. I have no problems using consumables (hell, I even still use them in almost every BT boss fight), the problem comes down to longer fights, like Brut or Council where you have to chose between a Haste Pot and a Mana Pot...thats the issue. Without any points in Efficiency (and not even 3/3 TotH for that matter), I see me choosing a Mana Pot more than a Haste Pot.
Again, my spec is built around my guild/raid. I HAVE to have 5/5 iHM because it makes the most sense right now. We have 2 other BM Hunters, and rather having both of them get it, I just have it since I am the "constant". I am already sacrificing some of my DPS by being Survival, giving up a little more to add even more to the Raid DPS and tank threat is more than worth it in my eyes. Im not saying that I do crappy DPS, im just saying that I dont always have the best group composition to make my DPS as high as you posted in your WWS. If you look at the number of shots we did, and the gear we have, it is *almost* an exact match. However when we compare group composition, thats where the big difference comes into play. And while are specs are different, I dont see 1 (or even 2) extra Rapid Fires and ~3% extra average crit from MT making a 300DPS difference.
Last edited by Sore82 : 04/04/08 at 1:39 AM.
I've looked through this thread and made some changes in my setup (thanks for all the info btw). Thanks to that, I've been able to produce some more dps (I'm kinda fresh to the whole survival thing), and more importantly use a "spam macro" again. I know many might frown on it, but I'm simply unable to lead raids properly when I have to time my shots.
When I specd surv, I got rid of all haste-proc stuff (DST and Imp. Hawk), and went with a 3:2 rotation. Yesterday I went back to it, and set up like this:
Macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom [nomodifier: shift] Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
#and some kill command and lightning breath stuff
So, basically, 3:2, or 1:1 while I keep shift down.
I also installed "Power Auras" and configured it to show me a big shiny arrow whenever I get Quick Shots / Haste / Rapid Fire / Heroism. This way, whenever I get a haste effect, I press shift (the "turbo" button) and keep spamming. This simplifies things a lot and allows more attention to what's going on around.
I also drank some Haste Potions, and resulted with 1.9k dps on Gorefiend (in a group of me, BM, feral, shaman and random). I also noticed that on RoS, I was able to keep myself "hasted" for around 75% of the time. I'd probably get much better results if I was timing manually, although I'm pretty content with it. Point to note is I ended Theron at 78% mana (3:32 time), without mana pots but with JoW. I only have 1 point in TotH and none in Efficiency.
I understand that static haste is only valuable until a certain value (someone mentioned 90 haste rating), so I assume armor penetration is the way to go... I need to revisit ZA for those daggers until Shiv becomes available.
What bothers me most, is that I simply don't have time to calculate the exact ap/crit ratio I should be maintaining. My crit fully buffed goes to around 51% (1200 agi), and I'm unsure if this is the point when I should work on my rap. One thing I intend to do is replace Tsunami with MotB. What I look for is an estimated ratio most beneficial for 1:1 (60%) and 3:2 (40%).
When I specd surv, I got rid of all haste-proc stuff (DST and Imp. Hawk), and went with a 3:2 rotation. Yesterday I went back to it, and set up like this:
Macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom [nomodifier: shift] Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
#and some kill command and lightning breath stuff
So, basically, 3:2, or 1:1 while I keep shift down.
I also installed "Power Auras" and configured it to show me a big shiny arrow whenever I get Quick Shots / Haste / Rapid Fire / Heroism. This way, whenever I get a haste effect, I press shift (the "turbo" button) and keep spamming. This simplifies things a lot and allows more attention to what's going on around.
I also drank some Haste Potions, and resulted with 1.9k dps on Gorefiend (in a group of me, BM, feral, shaman and random). I also noticed that on RoS, I was able to keep myself "hasted" for around 75% of the time. I'd probably get much better results if I was timing manually, although I'm pretty content with it. Point to note is I ended Theron at 78% mana (3:32 time), without mana pots but with JoW. I only have 1 point in TotH and none in Efficiency.
I understand that static haste is only valuable until a certain value (someone mentioned 90 haste rating), so I assume armor penetration is the way to go... I need to revisit ZA for those daggers until Shiv becomes available.
What bothers me most, is that I simply don't have time to calculate the exact ap/crit ratio I should be maintaining. My crit fully buffed goes to around 51% (1200 agi), and I'm unsure if this is the point when I should work on my rap. One thing I intend to do is replace Tsunami with MotB. What I look for is an estimated ratio most beneficial for 1:1 (60%) and 3:2 (40%).
I checked my fraps footage, and I forgot to Readiness a second time. I had just gotten Lust (and burn) so I guess I was concentrating on other things and flat out forgot. Regardless, while the extra Rapid(s) are great, I value the crit highly too.
With FD/Deterrence, I get where you're coming from with FD resists vs how many times will a Deterrence ever help a raid. With Readiness though, at least you have the option to Readiness->FD if needed (actually more like: FD resist -> "shit" -> Rapid Fire -> Readiness -> FD -> keep going. You loose a few effective seconds from the Rapid though). You could always drop 1 point in Survivalist to keep Deterrence + 2/2 Imp FD, or even a point in Surefooted if for some reason you're overloaded with hit gear.
In regards to your current spec, it's tempting to take points out of Efficiency put them into Master Tactician, or take points out of TotH and get 3 in Ranged Weapon Spec. I guess I'm a little biased, for example I ended Brutalis with ~85% mana, using multi/arcane/scorpid. On Felmyst I get pretty low, but dancing with skele's with viper on helps quite a bit. On Kalecgos I can usually make it to the end without a mana pot (I like to save pot cooldown for HP/shadow/restorative)
When it comes down to it, it's the old "damage vs mana" question that I believe many mana classes face. On any fight where you have enough mana, you should of gotten the damage talent. On any fight where the extra mana you gain could be used to perform extra (or different shots: eg steady->multi) shots to compensate for the damage loss, you should of gotten the mana talent.
The problem is, those two conditions that I wrote in italics have so many variables: favored rotation or macro, gear, encounter, roll in encounter, raid makeup, do your shamans drop tides for hunters or swap to caster groups, JoW uptime, etc.
So I guess its each to his own.
With FD/Deterrence, I get where you're coming from with FD resists vs how many times will a Deterrence ever help a raid. With Readiness though, at least you have the option to Readiness->FD if needed (actually more like: FD resist -> "shit" -> Rapid Fire -> Readiness -> FD -> keep going. You loose a few effective seconds from the Rapid though). You could always drop 1 point in Survivalist to keep Deterrence + 2/2 Imp FD, or even a point in Surefooted if for some reason you're overloaded with hit gear.
In regards to your current spec, it's tempting to take points out of Efficiency put them into Master Tactician, or take points out of TotH and get 3 in Ranged Weapon Spec. I guess I'm a little biased, for example I ended Brutalis with ~85% mana, using multi/arcane/scorpid. On Felmyst I get pretty low, but dancing with skele's with viper on helps quite a bit. On Kalecgos I can usually make it to the end without a mana pot (I like to save pot cooldown for HP/shadow/restorative)
When it comes down to it, it's the old "damage vs mana" question that I believe many mana classes face. On any fight where you have enough mana, you should of gotten the damage talent. On any fight where the extra mana you gain could be used to perform extra (or different shots: eg steady->multi) shots to compensate for the damage loss, you should of gotten the mana talent.
The problem is, those two conditions that I wrote in italics have so many variables: favored rotation or macro, gear, encounter, roll in encounter, raid makeup, do your shamans drop tides for hunters or swap to caster groups, JoW uptime, etc.
So I guess its each to his own.
I love this thread.
Now, seeing as its pretty active and I just went Survival for guild purposes,I wanted some general
feedback from the community in here.Here is the report from last night's Gorefiend kill.
WWS Loading
Strangely enough,my macro I use normally maintains a stable 1:1.5 rotation,but not that night.
Anyhow I was more wondering if at this stage my DPS are sufficient,because I think I can actually
pump out more,but this might be a residue I have from before when I was MM.
Here is my profile :
Armory Loading
The macro I use is a /castsequence, with /cast Arcane Shot and Kill Command and LB in it too.
In the report the Steadies are 54, while the Autos are only 39 (and 19 arcanes).
My spec is a 0/28/33 hybrid.The buff tot he raid is significant(all melees got a substantial increase in
their output,and especially my friend Athkore(one of the BM hunters in the guild)
The group I ran last night with was a feral,resto shamy and 2 BM hunters(normally we also have a SP
that takes the place of the shamy or the druid,depending on the situation)
So, I most likely need a new weapon and maybe try a different macro? Or those numbers are what I should
expect with current state of gear/talents?
Now, seeing as its pretty active and I just went Survival for guild purposes,I wanted some general
feedback from the community in here.Here is the report from last night's Gorefiend kill.
WWS Loading
Strangely enough,my macro I use normally maintains a stable 1:1.5 rotation,but not that night.
Anyhow I was more wondering if at this stage my DPS are sufficient,because I think I can actually
pump out more,but this might be a residue I have from before when I was MM.
Here is my profile :
Armory Loading
The macro I use is a /castsequence, with /cast Arcane Shot and Kill Command and LB in it too.
In the report the Steadies are 54, while the Autos are only 39 (and 19 arcanes).
My spec is a 0/28/33 hybrid.The buff tot he raid is significant(all melees got a substantial increase in
their output,and especially my friend Athkore(one of the BM hunters in the guild)
The group I ran last night with was a feral,resto shamy and 2 BM hunters(normally we also have a SP
that takes the place of the shamy or the druid,depending on the situation)
So, I most likely need a new weapon and maybe try a different macro? Or those numbers are what I should
expect with current state of gear/talents?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder)
Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs)
Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands)
That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6?
Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice?
-Thanks.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder)
Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs)
Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest)
Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands)
That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6?
Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice?
-Thanks.
Last edited by DarkDisciple : 04/04/08 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Addition
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Originally Posted by DarkDisciple
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder) Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs) Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest) Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands) That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6? Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice? -Thanks. |
Upgrade Shoulders: Gain 6 Agi, 22 AP, 28 Armor Ignore
Upgrade Legs: 20 Agi, 14 AP, 20 Hit for 19 Crit (not really an upgrade in my opinion, as you can swap the stat elsewhere) and 2!! Sockets.
Upgrade Chest: 2 Agi, 19 Crit, 30 AP, 210 Armor Ignore
Upgrade Gloves: -5 Agi, 18 Crit, 28 AP, 14 Armor Ignore, and a Socket.
Assuming 10Agi Sockets, it's 6 Agi 22 AP 28 Armor Ignore (Shoulders) vs 5 Agi 28 AP 14 Armor Ignore (Gloves). Looks like we'll be wearing giant eyeballs after all!
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Originally Posted by Sore82
VERY SELECT is the key phrase here. I would not consider anything in which I loose more than 10agility to be "worth it". Going over some of the +haste items, the one I would consider to be the most "worth it" would be:
[Fang of Kalecgos] - 25 Haste [Hard Khorium Band] - 28 Haste [Clutch of Demise] - 30 Haste and MAYBE [Cloak of Fiends] - 25 Haste Other things like: [Embrace of the Phoenix] - 44 Haste [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] - 38 Haste [Hard Khorium Band] - 28 Haste Would also be ok, however you have to consider you still need to have 4piece T6 to get the bonus and that the 2 Leather items will probably get priority to Rogues/Feral Druids over you. I personally havent seen ANY of those Sunwell items drop yet and we have fully cleared the first 3 bosses 2x so far. So im not in any real rush to start stacking up on haste gear yet. |
I agree in that you will need to actually test the haste out based on your particular situation (lag, event, computer graphics etc).
When doing my modeling I found [Hard Khorium Band] - 28 Haste and [Shivering Felspine] - 53 Haste to be ideal. As much haste as I could equip while still allowing some room for error.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Scorpid sting (and to a lesser extent, being the Mark hunter) hurts dps by a fair chunk. I dont see how I'm going to get around this though... I am the Survival Hunter after all. The extra GCD every ~20 seconds, and trying to fit it into a manual 1:1.5 really threw me off. I've only been doing 1:1.5 for around a month or two when I specced Survival.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
I was looking at other guild's WWS logs, and wow, its embarrassing how bad some other hunters are. Sub 1400 dps as Survival and sub 1700 as BM seem all too common... absolutely terrible even if you're in group 6 on your OWN, let alone some of those hunters having Lust/Agi/LotP!!
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If you were referring to logs of Brutalis attempts, then I definitely agree those numbers are low. That is either people not performing well or who really shouldn't ideally be trying him yet. I know that I won't be doing attempts on him anytime soon since neither myself or my guild are sufficiently progressed enough.
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Originally Posted by DarkDisciple
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder) Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs) Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest) Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands) That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6? Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice? -Thanks. |
In Cheeky's I got better DPS using T6 Shoulders + Gloves of Immortal Dusk than using T6 Gloves + Mantle of the GF
This is assuming you can get the Leather Helm off Illidan. If you cannot obtain that then yes, it might be smart to wear the T6 Helm as your 4th piece.
Also for legs you will want to use [Leggings of the Immortal Night] over the starstalker.
Cloak of Fiends is a good choice if you cannot get Kael cloak... I passed the CoF a while back to an offspec and now I'm thinking it was a mistake because we don't do Kael anymore either.
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Originally Posted by Stonga
I'm not sure what you mean that my unhasted macro is not a true 1:1.5 macro, but if i'm correct, you mean that i have Steady Shot in the /castrandom part of the macro? This was a mistake from my part. Usually i have Steady Shot in the /cast part of the macro. Sorry about the confusion.
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auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady (the multi and arcane can be switched in priority)
Your macro with the /castrandom multishot, arcane shot does not enforce the 1:1.5. When it gets to that line it will cast the higher priority one of those that is available regardless of whether it is the ideal location for a special. It can cast multishot and arcane shot after successive steadies, causing an unideal rotation and DPS loss from that ideal.
Here is an example from your log:
20:15'19.734 Idrin's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2294 Physical damage
20:15'21.234 Idrin's Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 1993 Physical damage
20:15'21.890 Idrin's Multi-Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2454 Physical damage
20:15'22.375 Idrin's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2165 Physical damage
20:15'24.250 Idrin's Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2136 Physical damage
20:15'24.312 Idrin's Arcane Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2311 Arcane damage
20:15'25.375 Idrin's Auto Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2235 Physical damage
20:15'27.265 Idrin's Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 856 Physical damage
20:15'27.843 Idrin's Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 875 Physical damage
20:15'29.390 Idrin's Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2143 Physical damage
Now I am not saying not to use that macro, I am only saying that it doesn't implement the ideal 1:1.5 rotation and that you should be aware of it. As far as macros go, I have tried out many and have not found an ideal one that works all the time (if someone has the magic macro that works for all situations please share). The only macros that I have found that reliably can perform the ideal 1:1.5 rotation are castsequence macros, which we know can have their own set of problems and which are not too flexible with haste. The benefit of your macro is that it is flexible with haste effects and will perform additional auto-steadies between specials when hasted.
After trying many macros myself, I have personally decided to generally use a /cast !auto /cast steady macro and hand-weave the arcane and multishots. This seems to work best for me since I use that same auto-steady macro under haste effects as well. However, in fights, like Archimode, that require more situational awareness of what is going on around me and during which hand-weaving is too distracting. I do use a similar macro as you use since its the most flexible, although not ideal.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Why immortal night legs not starstalker? I will be putting in 3x 10 agi gems either way, and starstalker have 57 base agi as compared to 45 (including socket bonus) on night. On cheeky's, the damage increase from starstalker to immortal night is only about 12.
Also, the illidan hat is amazing for BM, but why for survival? Lots of points wasted on hit, and relatively low agi. Am I focusing too much on maxing agi for EW and not enough on my own dps I guess?
Assembled the following list based on recommendations and what is likely to be available to me. Hopefully someday the legendary bow will be an option but that is a long way off. Not aiming for enough haste to do a clean 3:2, just enough to make the 1:1.5 nice and tidy.
[Shiv of Exsanguination]
[Enchant Weapon - Greater Agility]
[Shiv of Exsanguination]
[Enchant Weapon - Greater Agility]
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Clutch of Demise]
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x 3
[Gronnstalker's Bracers]
[Item 'enchant bracer - assault' not found!]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x 2
[Gronnstalker's Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x 3
[Gronnstalker's Boots]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Wicked Pyrestone]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Angelista's Revenge]
[Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Tsunami Talisman]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
[Quiver of a Thousand Feathers]
What would you change?
Also, the illidan hat is amazing for BM, but why for survival? Lots of points wasted on hit, and relatively low agi. Am I focusing too much on maxing agi for EW and not enough on my own dps I guess?
Assembled the following list based on recommendations and what is likely to be available to me. Hopefully someday the legendary bow will be an option but that is a long way off. Not aiming for enough haste to do a clean 3:2, just enough to make the 1:1.5 nice and tidy.
[Shiv of Exsanguination]
[Enchant Weapon - Greater Agility]
[Shiv of Exsanguination]
[Enchant Weapon - Greater Agility]
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Glyph of Ferocity]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Clutch of Demise]
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x 3
[Gronnstalker's Bracers]
[Item 'enchant bracer - assault' not found!]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x 2
[Gronnstalker's Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel] x 3
[Gronnstalker's Boots]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]
[Wicked Pyrestone]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Angelista's Revenge]
[Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Tsunami Talisman]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]
[Quiver of a Thousand Feathers]
What would you change?
Last edited by DarkDisciple : 04/04/08 at 4:43 PM.
Edit: wow... if you add in the ZA ring, you'll be running a static 1925 Armor Ignore- not sure exactly what the established armor values for bosses are after sunders/recklessness/etc, but that's gotta be close to 0 armor?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot
I'd definitely drop the Tsunami Talisman for a Berserker's Call, since the hit on it is completely useless (you're already at 127 hit when the cap is 95). I'm questioning the value of the Had Khorium Band versus the ZA Ring since Armor Ignore scales so well, but I think you're pretty close.
Edit: wow... if you add in the ZA ring, you'll be running a static 1925 Armor Ignore- not sure exactly what the established armor values for bosses are after sunders/recklessness/etc, but that's gotta be close to 0 armor? |
Last edited by DarkDisciple : 04/04/08 at 6:21 PM.
You got haste on necklace, cloak and ring. Isn't too much for a 3.0 bow?
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Originally Posted by Chanii
You got haste on necklace, cloak and ring. Isn't too much for a 3.0 bow?
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
If you have a tight rotation already and cannot find a good location to squeeze in Scorpid or Hunter's Mark without screwing up your rotation, another option is to replace arcane or multishot casts with these casts. I realize that it is a loss of personal DPS to do so, but not having HM up is a bigger personal and raid DPS (especially if its improved) and not having Scorpid Sting up on bosses where its needed hurts the raid by taxing the healers more and maybe wiping. And screwing up your rotation can possibly be a bigger DPS loss. I do not know which is better for you, replacing shots or trying to squeeze in and clipping shots, without analyzing your Webstats, which I unfortunatley can't do at the moment. However, I just wanted to throw out this alternative for you.
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I do not know which guilds' logs you looked at and their progression, but in general 1400 DPS as survival is not bad. It is bad for a fully endgame geared hunter against relatively squishy targets. But it is not bad for hunters in guilds that are relatively new to T6 content and do not have anything close to end-game gear yet and that are battling tougher bosses. If you were referring to logs of Brutalis attempts, then I definitely agree those numbers are low. That is either people not performing well or who really shouldn't ideally be trying him yet. I know that I won't be doing attempts on him anytime soon since neither myself or my guild are sufficiently progressed enough. |
So where are all these logs with SV hunters pulling 1800+ DPS with no group synergy or support on Brutallus?
Halleluljah @ Jander here http://elitistjerks.com/697191-post1457.html I also felt sorry for the treatment Kurkis got when posting his DPS. The dissenters were mostly Somerandomidiot and Vasilii which is why I have tried to get the /cast macro discussion going again.
Just to reiterate what many people have been saying SV raiding does NOT have a 1 size fits all solution, unfortunately. We all really need to take ourselves off to Boom or even better Badlands and do our own testing. This needs to be done on a regular basis as variables seam to affect the use /cast macros on an individual basis.
At least discussion is going down the right path, some really top notch opinions getting posted. Lets start by answering Sore82's obvious and blatant downer on using a 2:1 Rotation for the "Basis" of DPS. An opinion also shared by Somerandomidiot. The whole point of using 2:1 is that you don't even need to ever look at your hasted state! The macro does it for you automatically.
Your general opening comment that your tests did not favour using a 2:1 rotation at all is all too common. To switch to using a 2:1 unfortunately isn't just a question of changing macros and BINGO. You have to work at it. For a start to get the best from the 2:1 you would need to respec to 20//41 or even 7//20//34. Your spec would be wasted using 2:1 as IAS and or barrage simply arn't needed. Also trinkets would need to be changed, eg both [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Dragonspine Trophy] become awsome pieces using the /cast macro and 2:1 rotation.
Question 1) How to compensate for the macro "chaining" Steadys? There are 3 common ways to avoid this annoying phenomana.
i) Use the triple tap method. Using Quartz or similar you simply double tap your hotkey near the end of a steady cast then tap again imediately after the cast. This becomes second nature after using the macro for a while.
ii) Use a G15 keyboard or link mousewheel to staedy spam. The keyboard solution still has varied best settings. Some people say 5 inputs per second is great others say upto 20 inputs per second is optimal. Try for yorself if you use a G15.
iii) The final one is the one I use and was suggested by Quiggyb ages ago here.
No further explanation needed.
Question 2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse?
Firstly you can always include the LB line in your macro without detrimental effect. Kill command is completely different as it does indeed push back the Auot cast start to the point where "chaining" steadys increases. However the only solution that I have ever found is by using a /castsequence of one command, in this case Steady Shot. I personally add the Kill Command using a /castrandom line. But by all means try it out for yourself.
Question 3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying?
This is perhaps the most annoying comment you have posted. If you have spoken to Kurkis and you noted he did 2288 DPS using the /cast macro you don't need me to tell you how he did it. But I strongly suggest you do a search of Kurkis's posts here in this thread. You will see EXACTLY how he does 2288 DPS by reading the thread and not asking me to tell you again. Actually I will let you have a snipit of how he does it just to save you the bother of looking it up.
So yes he throws in some random Arcanes and Multis when mana and or situation allows, nonetheless the basis of DPS is using a /cast macro and 2:1 rotation.
Now then the next issue that intrigues me about 1 to 1:5 users is that of mana. If you have mana issues, which you say you do, why the hell wouldn't you use 2:1? Using the 2:1 rotation is a MINIMUM 35% more mana efficient than a full 1 to 1:5 Arcane Multi rotation. See many posters for refs. Or better still try a 120 second test on Boom with your spec and then try 2:1 and simply note your mana bar % after both tests.
Now some folks seam to doubt that the 2:1 can do 6 shots in 6 seconds. Well to be frank screw the theorycraft on this one. Off to boom again. Remove any haste proccing gear. Time a 120 second test using hunters mark. Use Recount to give a shot count. I usually get 79 Steady Shots and 39 Autos. Damn near close enough to one shot per second for me thank you very much.
I personally do this every week to ensure macro is still functioning correctly.
I actually say screw the theory craft as to why the /cast macro works and why it can deliver 1 shot per second average with very good reason. As of this moment in time nobody actually knows how the macro works, not even Cheeky....
Just to reiterate what many people have been saying SV raiding does NOT have a 1 size fits all solution, unfortunately. We all really need to take ourselves off to Boom or even better Badlands and do our own testing. This needs to be done on a regular basis as variables seam to affect the use /cast macros on an individual basis.
At least discussion is going down the right path, some really top notch opinions getting posted. Lets start by answering Sore82's obvious and blatant downer on using a 2:1 Rotation for the "Basis" of DPS. An opinion also shared by Somerandomidiot. The whole point of using 2:1 is that you don't even need to ever look at your hasted state! The macro does it for you automatically.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
@Tiberium
Ive tried the 2:1 rotation, and as you can see, the results did not favor it at all. So let me ask you some questions to figure out what I did wrong. 1) How do you compensate for the macro getting "stuck" shooting Auto Shot? Where it fire 1-5 EXTRA Steady Shots BEFORE getting off the Auto Shot. This problem only occurs while NOT Hasted. When I use Rapid Fire ora Haste Pot, this is not an issue (which is why BM Hunters do not have as much of an issue with it). 2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse. Have you experienced this and is it worth it NOT to use either of those abilities? 3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying. Here is a snipit of what he said:
So im a little confused, I see you saying one thing, and then another person, who you use as a reference, say another. |
Question 1) How to compensate for the macro "chaining" Steadys? There are 3 common ways to avoid this annoying phenomana.
i) Use the triple tap method. Using Quartz or similar you simply double tap your hotkey near the end of a steady cast then tap again imediately after the cast. This becomes second nature after using the macro for a while.
ii) Use a G15 keyboard or link mousewheel to staedy spam. The keyboard solution still has varied best settings. Some people say 5 inputs per second is great others say upto 20 inputs per second is optimal. Try for yorself if you use a G15.
iii) The final one is the one I use and was suggested by Quiggyb ages ago here.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
I noticed the /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot macro chaining steadys too. What has been working for me is the following:
/cast !auto shot /castsequence steady shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Basically turning the second /cast into aa /castsequence of one thing. This has been working pretty much perfectly and does a better job of dropping itself down to 1:1 while I am hasted. It also works fine with a kill command on top of everything, |
Question 2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse?
Firstly you can always include the LB line in your macro without detrimental effect. Kill command is completely different as it does indeed push back the Auot cast start to the point where "chaining" steadys increases. However the only solution that I have ever found is by using a /castsequence of one command, in this case Steady Shot. I personally add the Kill Command using a /castrandom line. But by all means try it out for yourself.
Question 3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying?
This is perhaps the most annoying comment you have posted. If you have spoken to Kurkis and you noted he did 2288 DPS using the /cast macro you don't need me to tell you how he did it. But I strongly suggest you do a search of Kurkis's posts here in this thread. You will see EXACTLY how he does 2288 DPS by reading the thread and not asking me to tell you again. Actually I will let you have a snipit of how he does it just to save you the bother of looking it up.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
The concept on how I play a Survival hunter is pretty simple.
BM hunters are the DPS powers that they are because they have 20% haste and a pet that does a good chunk of their damage. The idea here is to keep yourself hasted as much as you can during the fight so that you can run a solid 1:1 rotation allowing the benefits you get as a Survival hunter to help close the gap between Survival/MM damage and BM damage. I generally do every fight this way - We pull and you have 15-25 seconds where the tank is building aggro, the mob is being put into position. During this time I am using a Steady, Steady, Auto rotation and I throw in Multi-Shots and Arcanes when my Auto shot lets me. Before anyone screams I will clobber auto-shots doing this and the world will end because of it, I don't care. It is my opinion that a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman are the 2 most important things to have in your group as a Survival hunter. With that said both the druid and the shaman as well as myself have drums of battle. After these 15-25 seconds are up the Shaman will pop Heroism and drums (45 seconds), Rapid Fire (15 seconds) when Heroism fades and then Readiness/Rapid Fire (15 seconds) again. At this point we are 95-100 seconds total into the fight and 75 of those seconds I am hasted. During the second Rapid Fire I make the decision to either haste pot or fel mana pot. There are 2x when I will not do this. First being Kaz'rogal where I till take a Fel mana pot about 10 seconds into the fight so I can get as much mana back as I can at the beginning (even if I waste some of the fel mana pot) so that hopefully near the end of the fight I can sneak in a Super Mana pot. This doesn't always work but I try. The other acception to that rule is on Illidari Council where I Fel Mana pot the entire time and generally have to use Aspect of the Viper no more then about 30 seconds. Generally, I take a haste pot after the 2nd Rapid Fire giving me a total of 1 1/2 minutes of being hasted running a 1:1 rotation. During that period of time I've pretty much just destroyed the mob and with running over a 50% crit w/ Master Tact up for a large portion of that time the crits are glorious. We are now ruffly 110-115 seconds into the fight and all of your 'controlled' haste is done. By this time your numbers are going to be pretty good as long as you aren't bad at the game and you need to just run out the clock. You've got 1.5 - 2 minutes left in the fight. I will simply go back to Steady, Steady, Auto, and toss in more specials when I can. If DST procs and drums are running I can go back to 1:1. During the end all I am trying to do is sustain the damage. My results are what I have posted. My rotation really is not as close to 1:1 as it looks on the shot chart. There are a few stray Auto-Shots that go during the course of the fight that cut the gap between Steady and Auto down. As you can clearly see though I favor Steady shot. To address the Foam Finger Fans who will say you should do it differently... I do it this way and it works for me. There is more then one way to skin a cat and if you are having success as a Survival hunter or MM for that matter then indeed you should post your WWS and take us through how you play your character in the fight so that we can become more educated, thus allowing us all to improve our play. Before I end my wall of text I'm going to give you guys all a free pro tip - Get Drums of Battle. Unless you are one of your guilds main (insert profession here) there is really no excuse to not have atleast 350 LW as one of your professions. With that, the more drummers you have in the raid the higher your raids DPS is. In my guild we have something like 16 active drummers. Think about that. |
Now then the next issue that intrigues me about 1 to 1:5 users is that of mana. If you have mana issues, which you say you do, why the hell wouldn't you use 2:1? Using the 2:1 rotation is a MINIMUM 35% more mana efficient than a full 1 to 1:5 Arcane Multi rotation. See many posters for refs. Or better still try a 120 second test on Boom with your spec and then try 2:1 and simply note your mana bar % after both tests.
Now some folks seam to doubt that the 2:1 can do 6 shots in 6 seconds. Well to be frank screw the theorycraft on this one. Off to boom again. Remove any haste proccing gear. Time a 120 second test using hunters mark. Use Recount to give a shot count. I usually get 79 Steady Shots and 39 Autos. Damn near close enough to one shot per second for me thank you very much.
I personally do this every week to ensure macro is still functioning correctly.
I actually say screw the theory craft as to why the /cast macro works and why it can deliver 1 shot per second average with very good reason. As of this moment in time nobody actually knows how the macro works, not even Cheeky....
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
Auto Shot still has its own, independent cast time. What happens in steady-spam macros is that there is a disconnect between your GCD (client) and actual casts (server) where there is the ability to squeeze out 2 Steady Shots in less than 1.5s total time. I also believe Auto Shot's cast time is being effected by haste (like any other cast) and going off faster than 0.5s.
But I have seen no evidence that the cast time is simultaneous with Steady Shot. If so, you basically have non-interfering shots, the holy grail of Hunter mechanics. |
Greetings
Since this is the actual Survival Thread I'll post some questions here cause it seems more apropriate than the "help me" thread
First of all, my specc: 7/21/33
And then my armory link: Vallerian - EU - Azshara (If theres the riding Crop on: I use Hourglass and Bloodlust during raids)
I recently changed some gear and finally hit 911 Agility unbuffed with 33,86% Crit and 2340 AP (with Hawk on).
During raids I find myself somewhere at places 1-6...depending on the encounter! (Archimonde is not quite hunter friendly -.-)
Until two days ago I used a 1:1.X Steady/Auto/Arcane Macro, but now I also use Multi-Shot (Rank1 because of mana efficiency and missing points in barrage). I have a G15 for my Macros...
I would like to link a WWS report but I can't persuade others in my guild to use WWS, too so according to the WWS FAQ the results would not be accurate...and I'm not very experienced with WWS :/
If I get one (tomorrow perhaps) I`ll post it!
After discussing some things in the help me thread, I already got Belt of Deep Shadow and switched Drake Fang Talisman for Bloodlust Brooch...
But I would like to improve my hunter much more if possible...so it would be nice if you could share your thoughts with me, any help is very appreciated!
If you need anything else, feel free to ask...I'll give you any information you need
Since this is the actual Survival Thread I'll post some questions here cause it seems more apropriate than the "help me" thread
First of all, my specc: 7/21/33
And then my armory link: Vallerian - EU - Azshara (If theres the riding Crop on: I use Hourglass and Bloodlust during raids)
I recently changed some gear and finally hit 911 Agility unbuffed with 33,86% Crit and 2340 AP (with Hawk on).
During raids I find myself somewhere at places 1-6...depending on the encounter! (Archimonde is not quite hunter friendly -.-)
Until two days ago I used a 1:1.X Steady/Auto/Arcane Macro, but now I also use Multi-Shot (Rank1 because of mana efficiency and missing points in barrage). I have a G15 for my Macros...
I would like to link a WWS report but I can't persuade others in my guild to use WWS, too so according to the WWS FAQ the results would not be accurate...and I'm not very experienced with WWS :/
If I get one (tomorrow perhaps) I`ll post it!
After discussing some things in the help me thread, I already got Belt of Deep Shadow and switched Drake Fang Talisman for Bloodlust Brooch...
But I would like to improve my hunter much more if possible...so it would be nice if you could share your thoughts with me, any help is very appreciated!
If you need anything else, feel free to ask...I'll give you any information you need
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Originally Posted by Varon
But I would like to improve my hunter much more if possible...so it would be nice if you could share your thoughts with me, any help is very appreciated!
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1) Your gear for the most part looks good; however, one thing popped out. You have great gear like the Bow-Stiched Leggings, but then you are wearing the T4 helm. Until something better for you drops, I would suggest trying to get the arena 3 helms you are in arena teams. It is an awesome helm for survival hunters. I still wear it myself at 4/5 MH and 3/9 BT.
2) Another gear suggestion until you get better. You are wearing the Choker of Vile Intent to get hit rating. A better neck that is esasily attainable is the Necklace of the Deep that you can have a JC craft for you and then put in 2 agility gems. You will lose 14 HR that way, but you could make that up with replacing your gloves with the badge gloves (Gauntlets of Sniping). This would actually result with you being 5 HR above the cap.
3) Another item to explore is that unless you are very good at switching your rotations under the affect of IAotH, a 7/21/33 build may not be ideal. It is more ideal for someone who has the gear to do a 2:1 rotation unhasted and is using a cast macro that scales automatically with the haste. I am not saying do not use this build if it works for you, but I would suggest some builds that may be better for you since you are using a 1:1.5 rotation currently. My preferrence is the 0/20/41 build since I am a fan of Readiness for raids. Another good option to try out now that you are using multishot is a Barrage build such as 0/28/33. Posts in this thread provide good examples of each. There are also valid options between the two. Check them out and see what works best for you.
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Hi, a couple thoughts for you. 1) Your gear for the most part looks good; however, one thing popped out. You have great gear like the Bow-Stiched Leggings, but then you are wearing the T4 helm. Until something better for you drops, I would suggest trying to get the arena 3 helms you are in arena teams. It is an awesome helm for survival hunters. I still wear it myself at 4/5 MH and 3/9 BT. 2) Another gear suggestion until you get better. You are wearing the Choker of Vile Intent to get hit rating. A better neck that is esasily attainable is the Necklace of the Deep that you can have a JC craft for you and then put in 2 agility gems. You will lose 14 HR that way, but you could make that up with replacing your gloves with the badge gloves (Gauntlets of Sniping). This would actually result with you being 5 HR above the cap. 3) Another item to explore is that unless you are very good at switching your rotations under the affect of IAotH, a 7/21/33 build may not be ideal. It is more ideal for someone who has the gear to do a 2:1 rotation unhasted and is using a cast macro that scales automatically with the haste. I am not saying do not use this build if it works for you, but I would suggest some builds that may be better for you since you are using a 1:1.5 rotation currently. My preferrence is the 0/20/41 build since I am a fan of Readiness for raids. Another good option to try out now that you are using multishot is a Barrage build such as 0/28/33. Posts in this thread provide good examples of each. There are also valid options between the two. Check them out and see what works best for you. |
1) I'm working on that
2) Wouldn't that decrease personal DPS?
3) What kind of Macro would that be and what kind of gear would be necessary?
The Barrage build seems very nice...especcialy due to the 12% more damage to multi and 3% from range weapon specc...but theres also the question of mana...due to the loss of IAotH the mana usage would increase or am I wrong?
The 0/20/41 specc with or without readiness...well...I always thought of it as a dps loss...^^
I like the heavy support a SV hunter means for the raid but I still want to do my part of the dmg...and I want to do it really well ^^
Necklace of the Deep for me is 5 less personal dps compared to Kael'Thas neck when I put 2x 10 agi gems in it. However its +50 raid dps.
Thanks for your post Tiberium, particularly the "how do I stop chain steadies" part. Many times I've been wanting to use that for various reasons (no-thinking needed, mana efficiency), but simply would not work.
I'll give those methods a shot and post any results.
edit: the results.
Unfortunately, I think the /castsequence line is not a magic cure for the chain-steady problem. Macro's used:
/cast /cast:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast /castsquence:
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I hunters marked Dr Boom and instantly held down my g15 macro at 25 cycles per second (DOWN - 0.02 delay - UP - 0.02 delay). When the hunters mark faded I instantly turned around/jumped to stop all shots. I recored the number of autoshots/steadyshots per test. I did each test twice, results seperated by a /.
/cast /cast results:
3.0 speed weapon, 53 haste rating (3.36%), 260 latency (oceanic + registry edit 'fix')
Autoshots: 39 / 38
Steadyshots: 77 / 77
/cast /castsequence results:
3.0 speed weapon, 53 haste rating (3.36%), 260 latency (oceanic + registry edit 'fix')
Autoshots: 36 / 36
Steadyshots: 71 / 71
As you can see, the /castsequence is not firing shots as fast. It also did not completely prevent steady-chaining, as I saw it steady-chain once in each test. The /cast /cast method also chain-steadied, 3 times in one test and twice in another.
The notable thing about the /cast /castsequence macro is what Big Trouble displayed on it's "autoshot-clip-timer". For those who have not used BigTrouble before, it's autoshot bar will show you how long each autoshot clip/clobber is. Naturally, the /cast /cast and /cast /castsequence macros clip every auto by a significant amount in order to get another steady in. The difference between the two though is substantial.
The average /cast /cast clip was around 0.6 seconds. There were a few from 0.4 to 0.8, with the very odd 0.3 and up to 1.0. When an autoshot was missed (chain-steady) the clip meter reaches 1.9, 3.2, etc.
The average /cast /castsequence clip was around 0.9 seconds. The lowest was 0.7, but most fell within 0.9 to 1, some were up to 1.2. In addition to this meter, it's also fires the second steady shot visually slower than /cast /cast, which explains why it clips more. Second steadyshot denoted below with *'s.
(auto - steady - *steady* - auto - steady - *steady* ...)
So in conclusion, the /castsequence line shoots the second steadyshot slower than /cast. I suppose this may be because "/casts" can take advantage of server-side queue, whereas "/castsequence" cannot, even though it is only casting one ability. The slower second cast pushes back the autoshot that follows, meaning a longer total shot cycle time, in turn meaning less shots per minute. Also, it did not eradicate steady-chaining for me either. The reason why it seems to reduce steady-chaining and drop to 1:1 easier is because it's firing at a slower rate.
PS: this is all at Dr Boom, real raid use will increase steady-chaining also.
PPS: I went to Blasted Lands to test shots per min using manual 1:1.5, but first I tried /cast/cast and /cast/castsequence there too. I got 6 steadies in a row using /cast/castsequence =(
PPS: Infact most autoshots get missed. It looks like this (with both macros): auto steadyx4 auto steadyx2 auto steady x3 auto steadyx6 auto steady x2 auto steadyx4 auto steadyx3 etc.
I dont know why it's so much more than Dr Boom. My macro does not include Kill Command or Lightning Breath.
I guess manual is still the go.
I'll give those methods a shot and post any results.
edit: the results.
Unfortunately, I think the /castsequence line is not a magic cure for the chain-steady problem. Macro's used:
/cast /cast:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast /castsquence:
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I hunters marked Dr Boom and instantly held down my g15 macro at 25 cycles per second (DOWN - 0.02 delay - UP - 0.02 delay). When the hunters mark faded I instantly turned around/jumped to stop all shots. I recored the number of autoshots/steadyshots per test. I did each test twice, results seperated by a /.
/cast /cast results:
3.0 speed weapon, 53 haste rating (3.36%), 260 latency (oceanic + registry edit 'fix')
Autoshots: 39 / 38
Steadyshots: 77 / 77
/cast /castsequence results:
3.0 speed weapon, 53 haste rating (3.36%), 260 latency (oceanic + registry edit 'fix')
Autoshots: 36 / 36
Steadyshots: 71 / 71
As you can see, the /castsequence is not firing shots as fast. It also did not completely prevent steady-chaining, as I saw it steady-chain once in each test. The /cast /cast method also chain-steadied, 3 times in one test and twice in another.
The notable thing about the /cast /castsequence macro is what Big Trouble displayed on it's "autoshot-clip-timer". For those who have not used BigTrouble before, it's autoshot bar will show you how long each autoshot clip/clobber is. Naturally, the /cast /cast and /cast /castsequence macros clip every auto by a significant amount in order to get another steady in. The difference between the two though is substantial.
The average /cast /cast clip was around 0.6 seconds. There were a few from 0.4 to 0.8, with the very odd 0.3 and up to 1.0. When an autoshot was missed (chain-steady) the clip meter reaches 1.9, 3.2, etc.
The average /cast /castsequence clip was around 0.9 seconds. The lowest was 0.7, but most fell within 0.9 to 1, some were up to 1.2. In addition to this meter, it's also fires the second steady shot visually slower than /cast /cast, which explains why it clips more. Second steadyshot denoted below with *'s.
(auto - steady - *steady* - auto - steady - *steady* ...)
So in conclusion, the /castsequence line shoots the second steadyshot slower than /cast. I suppose this may be because "/casts" can take advantage of server-side queue, whereas "/castsequence" cannot, even though it is only casting one ability. The slower second cast pushes back the autoshot that follows, meaning a longer total shot cycle time, in turn meaning less shots per minute. Also, it did not eradicate steady-chaining for me either. The reason why it seems to reduce steady-chaining and drop to 1:1 easier is because it's firing at a slower rate.
PS: this is all at Dr Boom, real raid use will increase steady-chaining also.
PPS: I went to Blasted Lands to test shots per min using manual 1:1.5, but first I tried /cast/cast and /cast/castsequence there too. I got 6 steadies in a row using /cast/castsequence =(
PPS: Infact most autoshots get missed. It looks like this (with both macros): auto steadyx4 auto steadyx2 auto steady x3 auto steadyx6 auto steady x2 auto steadyx4 auto steadyx3 etc.
I dont know why it's so much more than Dr Boom. My macro does not include Kill Command or Lightning Breath.
I guess manual is still the go.
Last edited by Intermission : Yesterday at 12:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
/cast /cast: /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
I was binding the macro to mouse wheel.
3.0 speed weapon, 0 haste, 400~600ms latency
Auto - steady was
31:70
31:66
32:70
29:69
The steady chaining was very serious. I'm wondering if it's that I need to get a more "professional" mouse or is it my abysmal connection.
Any suggestions?
P.S. Interesting thing was, even with the chain steadies, the resulting dps was still on par with manual waiving 1:1.5 without T6x4 nor Ashentongue. I suppose 2:1 is much more latency resistant than 1:1.5?
@ Intermission. This is indeed the really frustrating thing about using the /cast macros, for some people they work flawlessy whist for others they chain Steadys occasionally all the way through to chaining horribly.
Looking at your tests though on Boom at least you actually come within 2 Steady Shots of a perfect 2:1 rotation, the 39//77 result is pretty much what one would expect in 120 sec.
Something which is very odd though is the ratio of shots.
Taking the 39//77 result as its your best and add the fact that you chained 2 Steady Shots during that test we should see the numbers like this
38//78 thus allowing for 2 extra Steadys that were chained, odd indeed.
One final point that hits home from your results is using the fix of /cast /castsquence:-
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Is that only very good latency players can expect to get solid results, probably less than 100 to make it work well. Still if anyone can post better than 39//79 using the cast macro on Boom over 120 secs. it would be great to find out how you do it.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Thanks for your post Tiberium, particularly the "how do I stop chain steadies" part. Many times I've been wanting to use that for various reasons (no-thinking needed, mana efficiency), but simply would not work.
I'll give those methods a shot and post any results. edit: the results. Unfortunately, I think the /castsequence line is not a magic cure for the chain-steady problem. Macro's used: /cast /cast: /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /cast /castsquence: /cast !Auto Shot /castsequence Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() I hunters marked Dr Boom and instantly held down my g15 macro at 25 cycles per second (DOWN - 0.02 delay - UP - 0.02 delay). When the hunters mark faded I instantly turned around/jumped to stop all shots. I recored the number of autoshots/steadyshots per test. I did each test twice, results seperated by a /. /cast /cast results: 3.0 speed weapon, 53 haste rating (3.36%), 260 latency (oceanic + registry edit 'fix') Autoshots: 39 / 38 Steadyshots: 77 / 77 /cast /castsequence results: 3.0 speed weapon, 53 haste rating (3.36%), 260 latency (oceanic + registry edit 'fix') Autoshots: 36 / 36 Steadyshots: 71 / 71 As you can see, the /castsequence is not firing shots as fast. It also did not completely prevent steady-chaining, as I saw it steady-chain once in each test. The /cast /cast method also chain-steadied, 3 times in one test and twice in another. |
Something which is very odd though is the ratio of shots.
Taking the 39//77 result as its your best and add the fact that you chained 2 Steady Shots during that test we should see the numbers like this
38//78 thus allowing for 2 extra Steadys that were chained, odd indeed.
One final point that hits home from your results is using the fix of /cast /castsquence:-
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Is that only very good latency players can expect to get solid results, probably less than 100 to make it work well. Still if anyone can post better than 39//79 using the cast macro on Boom over 120 secs. it would be great to find out how you do it.
Well the "turn around when hunters mark hits 0" is not accurate, and I could tell that on some tests I turned around right as it finished a steady, or right when it should of. Also the GCD from HM start is a poor way too...
I mainly did it to show the difference in /cast/castsquence with 260 latency, and it shows that good enough.
Although the chain-steadies did not happen often on DrBoom, in any raid I am in it chain-steadies constantly. Also, for some reason in Blasted Lands it happened heaps too (no KC/LB). Maybe simply the latency change from Outlands to Blasted Lands made the difference.
I mainly did it to show the difference in /cast/castsquence with 260 latency, and it shows that good enough.
Although the chain-steadies did not happen often on DrBoom, in any raid I am in it chain-steadies constantly. Also, for some reason in Blasted Lands it happened heaps too (no KC/LB). Maybe simply the latency change from Outlands to Blasted Lands made the difference.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Varon
2) Wouldn't that decrease personal DPS?
3) What kind of Macro would that be and what kind of gear would be necessary? The Barrage build seems very nice...especcialy due to the 12% more damage to multi and 3% from range weapon specc...but theres also the question of mana...due to the loss of IAotH the mana usage would increase or am I wrong? The 0/20/41 specc with or without readiness...well...I always thought of it as a dps loss...^^ I like the heavy support a SV hunter means for the raid but I still want to do my part of the dmg...and I want to do it really well ^^ |
DPS: 1342.44
Time to OOM: 169.46
Average EW AP: 298.73
I then replaced [Worgen Claw Necklace] and [Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer] with [Necklace of the Deep] and [Gauntlets of Sniping], each with 2x+8 agi gems, and saw:
DPS: 1343.91 (+1.47)
Time to OOM: 166.49 (-2.97)
Average EW AP: 302.96 (+4.23)
Assuming 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS in the raid, this increases not only your personal DPS by 1.47 but also your overall raid contribution by 9.93 DPS.
Now if you put +10 agi gems in the neck, the results are:
DPS: 1346.50 (+4.06)
Time to OOM: 166.61 (-2.85)
Average EW AP: 304.26 (+5.53)
That is an overall raid contribution increase by 15.12 DPS.
Ignoring the stamina and intellect since they don't factor directly into DPS and the +5 hit since you are at the cap or above in both cases, the difference between the two sets is:
+17 agi versus -32 AP
Since LR and BoK scales that +17 agi to 21.5 agi, this explains the big increase in the average EW proc.
That +21.5 agi is also +21.5 AP, +0.54% crit, +43 armor, and +0.86 dodge. Thus, the DPS difference comes down to +0.54% crit > -10.5 AP.
3) Concerning the effective 7/20/41 build, it is most effective in my opinion in a situation that is similar to a BM hunter in which unplanned large increases in haste are automatically incorporated and handled by the rotation. To make this effective for a survival hunter, one needs the 4 T6 set bonus and preferabbly the Ashtongue rep trinket that provides benefits of steady shot. Under those situations, many hunters (not all and definitely not me since I am not there yet) have been able to successfully use the /cast !auto /cast Steady Shot macro you will see referenced in many places in this thread to implement an auto-steady-steady rotation (2:1). Under certain levels of haste, this macro should theoretically implement a 3:2 rotation of auto-steady-steady-auto-steady, and then under higher haste the 1:1 rotation. Haste effects help this situation perform at its best so Quickshot procs should theoretically have only positive effects on the rotation and DPS. Note that some people are getting steady shot chained beyond 2 when using this macro, but this may only be a timing thing, but I can't say for sure since I have not tested it myself yet since I am not anywhere a position to get benefits from it.
BTW... with 5/5 in Efficiency and 3/3 in TotH, you have quite a bit of mana efficiency at 30.2% (10% from Efficiency and 20.2% from 3/3 TotH ideally). As a comparison, I run with only 2/3 TotH, which gives me about 13.6%. I make up for this difference by using mana oils and mana pots and sometimes elixers of major mageblood. If you find that you are having few mana problems with this build, you may want to consider reallocating some of those points to increase DPS. You can easily take one point out of TotH if you want and place it in either of Readiness, Wyvern Sting, Scatter Shot, or 1/3 Barrage depending on which you prefer.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 04/06/08 at 4:09 AM.
Thank you alot for taking the time to explain your thoughts that detailled to me! I really appreciate it!
Before the Kara-Badge raid last night I decided to test the 0/20/41 specc...thats why I respecced...
The problem with the Gauntlets is that I planned to get the T6 Gloves next time the token drops (hopefully next week)...so I would be short on Hit again if I would switch Worgenclaw to Necklace of the Deep :/ Besides in my guild Crimson Spinel is only given out for items with no real upgrade in range :/
As you mention the mana efficiency:
During all the Bossfights last night in Kara i never dropped under 30% Mana...without oils and mageblood...
So I think it would be best to reallocate 1 point from TotH into Readiness...that would give me 2x Rapid Fire, 2x MD and other stuff As I see, it would match your specc exactly
That combined with Fel Mana Potions during raids would be quite good...
May I ask at which position you find yourself after Bossfights (in DMG-Meters)?
Before the Kara-Badge raid last night I decided to test the 0/20/41 specc...thats why I respecced...
The problem with the Gauntlets is that I planned to get the T6 Gloves next time the token drops (hopefully next week)...so I would be short on Hit again if I would switch Worgenclaw to Necklace of the Deep :/ Besides in my guild Crimson Spinel is only given out for items with no real upgrade in range :/
As you mention the mana efficiency:
During all the Bossfights last night in Kara i never dropped under 30% Mana...without oils and mageblood...
So I think it would be best to reallocate 1 point from TotH into Readiness...that would give me 2x Rapid Fire, 2x MD and other stuff As I see, it would match your specc exactly
That combined with Fel Mana Potions during raids would be quite good...
May I ask at which position you find yourself after Bossfights (in DMG-Meters)?
Lag and the use of castsequence versus cast and the use of KC will all affect rather you get chain steadies or not.
What really got me thinking about using a /cast macro for SV was wwsscoreboard. The top hunters on Teron are pulling 2600+ DPS. My best SV Teron at the time was 2050. As you all know from looking at my logs, my group is usually set up with every conceivable buff.
With that being the case, the 500+ DPS loss from BM to SV just bugged me to death. I knew that even on paper EW was barely worth 500 DPS. Now factor in all the things that happen that cause you not to get an optimal EW benefit such as melee deaths, melee not showing up on a specific night or simple split DPS and I realized something had to give from my 1.5:1 20/41 build.
The first thing I did was run BM for a while. Using the 3:2 rotation as BM really opened up my eyes to the benefits of this type of rotation. However I saw chain steadies happening even with BM if KC was used at a certain time in the rotation. This concerned me, but I shrugged it off after doing 2550 on Teron with a worst group makeup than I had during my best SV run.
The got me thinking about carrying over the macro to SV. So I sat down and modeled some things in Cheeky's SS. I came up with a 2:1 unhasted rotation (manually entered you should set line 49 and 50 to none to loop the rotation correctly), a 3:2 rotation during Quick Shots and DST procs and a 1:1 during both Quick Shots and DST. This was with 80 haste added manually on the gear tab to account for my group’s drum uptime. This setup scored way ahead of my previous build and spec and was within 100 DPS of my BM setup in the spreadsheet.
I then tried it in game and kept chaining the steadies esp if i macroed in KC. Losing KC alone was sizeable DPS loss, made more grievous by the fact that I had focus fire. The chain steadies were obviously another big dps loss. I almost gave up, telling myself that with these problems the /cast option can't possibly be better for me and expose weakness can't possibly be worth a 500-600 DPS loss from me being SV over BM in a real raid situation.
After a lot of macro tinkering I decided to change to a castsequence macro. That largely fixed the chaining problem and even allowed me to put KC in my macro without chaining. I ran with that spec this week and saw a nice improvement in my DPS on Teron.
Recount on ZA bear mount runs really got me. On those runs I don't have the grp make up I do in 25 mans obviously. I am usually in a caster group with no benefits to my DPS other than heroism. When I ran it as BM I was pulling 2k on bosses. With the new SV macro I was only doing 1600-1700. I wasn't really troubled by it, I just noted the difference.
This week I took a [Fang of Kalecgos] just to play around. I went to ZA this week, same group as always, same 7/20/34 build and pulled 2k on the bear and hawk bosses, pretty much equaling my BM numbers.
Why do I think the extra haste helped so much? First of all my macro never produced what I had modeled. Even with drums going off constantly, hawk procs were still giving me a 2:1 and not the 3:2 I had modeled. One would think that the 15% haste from Hawk plus the 5% haste from drums would give me the same rotation as the 20% haste from SS in the BM tree. It wasn’t and it could have been due to using /castsequence instead of the /cast I used in my BM test. The extra haste from the dagger coupled with drums and the 15% from hawk does push me to a 3:2 with /castsequence. I will see what my WWS looks like this week with the dagger and [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
In conclusion, after you get 4 PC T6 and a 3.0 bow, 7/20/41 is probably going to be the best DPS spec if you can do the modeled rotations either through a macro or by hand weaving.
Haste is probably going to be all but useless to a SV hunter unless you use some type of steady spam rotation and you have haste procs going off either through IotH or a DST. Even then you need to guarantee that your macro performs at 3:2 during the haste procs or you hand weave it yourself during haste procs. Given the Itemazation in SW I feel that a IotH build which allows you to utilize haste that you will end up getting on some items is probably going to be the best DPS for a build with EW.
It really comes down to the player. I have tried and used every build out there at various times. You must be willing to constantly test, tweak and reevaluate where your gear is, your raid make-up and how you plan on executing your shot rotation. I'd urge everyone to take a hard look at your difference between BM personal DPS and SV personal DPS and weigh EW with a grain of salt. You can theory craft it out to AP *.3 * # of DPSers all day, but in the real world people may or may not perform at 100% and a lot of fights have split DPS. Things like Kalegos where you may be on the Demon while all the people who benefit from you EW are on the Dragon, fights like Council where two of your raids DPS are interrupting on the Priest while you are shooting the Paladin to even fights like Teron or Brutelas where 2 of your buffees get ghost or die from aoe will all diminish the paper value of EW.
I feel that SV is like any other buff spec, ie Arms Warriors, Enhance Shaman, Boomkin etc. You have to do enough DPS on your own to make it worth bringing you in for your Buff. Doubly so if you are a class that has a pure dps spec and a buff dps spec such as hunters. In my experience so far, I find I really have to constantly tweak my play as SV to make it worth it in my eyes.
If you are reading this thread you are in the right place, just remember that every idea has merit and don't listen to the flamers when an new idea pops up. Things that perform better in tricked out groups are in all likelihood going to perform better in unbuffed groups.
What really got me thinking about using a /cast macro for SV was wwsscoreboard. The top hunters on Teron are pulling 2600+ DPS. My best SV Teron at the time was 2050. As you all know from looking at my logs, my group is usually set up with every conceivable buff.
With that being the case, the 500+ DPS loss from BM to SV just bugged me to death. I knew that even on paper EW was barely worth 500 DPS. Now factor in all the things that happen that cause you not to get an optimal EW benefit such as melee deaths, melee not showing up on a specific night or simple split DPS and I realized something had to give from my 1.5:1 20/41 build.
The first thing I did was run BM for a while. Using the 3:2 rotation as BM really opened up my eyes to the benefits of this type of rotation. However I saw chain steadies happening even with BM if KC was used at a certain time in the rotation. This concerned me, but I shrugged it off after doing 2550 on Teron with a worst group makeup than I had during my best SV run.
The got me thinking about carrying over the macro to SV. So I sat down and modeled some things in Cheeky's SS. I came up with a 2:1 unhasted rotation (manually entered you should set line 49 and 50 to none to loop the rotation correctly), a 3:2 rotation during Quick Shots and DST procs and a 1:1 during both Quick Shots and DST. This was with 80 haste added manually on the gear tab to account for my group’s drum uptime. This setup scored way ahead of my previous build and spec and was within 100 DPS of my BM setup in the spreadsheet.
I then tried it in game and kept chaining the steadies esp if i macroed in KC. Losing KC alone was sizeable DPS loss, made more grievous by the fact that I had focus fire. The chain steadies were obviously another big dps loss. I almost gave up, telling myself that with these problems the /cast option can't possibly be better for me and expose weakness can't possibly be worth a 500-600 DPS loss from me being SV over BM in a real raid situation.
After a lot of macro tinkering I decided to change to a castsequence macro. That largely fixed the chaining problem and even allowed me to put KC in my macro without chaining. I ran with that spec this week and saw a nice improvement in my DPS on Teron.
Recount on ZA bear mount runs really got me. On those runs I don't have the grp make up I do in 25 mans obviously. I am usually in a caster group with no benefits to my DPS other than heroism. When I ran it as BM I was pulling 2k on bosses. With the new SV macro I was only doing 1600-1700. I wasn't really troubled by it, I just noted the difference.
This week I took a [Fang of Kalecgos] just to play around. I went to ZA this week, same group as always, same 7/20/34 build and pulled 2k on the bear and hawk bosses, pretty much equaling my BM numbers.
Why do I think the extra haste helped so much? First of all my macro never produced what I had modeled. Even with drums going off constantly, hawk procs were still giving me a 2:1 and not the 3:2 I had modeled. One would think that the 15% haste from Hawk plus the 5% haste from drums would give me the same rotation as the 20% haste from SS in the BM tree. It wasn’t and it could have been due to using /castsequence instead of the /cast I used in my BM test. The extra haste from the dagger coupled with drums and the 15% from hawk does push me to a 3:2 with /castsequence. I will see what my WWS looks like this week with the dagger and [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
In conclusion, after you get 4 PC T6 and a 3.0 bow, 7/20/41 is probably going to be the best DPS spec if you can do the modeled rotations either through a macro or by hand weaving.
Haste is probably going to be all but useless to a SV hunter unless you use some type of steady spam rotation and you have haste procs going off either through IotH or a DST. Even then you need to guarantee that your macro performs at 3:2 during the haste procs or you hand weave it yourself during haste procs. Given the Itemazation in SW I feel that a IotH build which allows you to utilize haste that you will end up getting on some items is probably going to be the best DPS for a build with EW.
It really comes down to the player. I have tried and used every build out there at various times. You must be willing to constantly test, tweak and reevaluate where your gear is, your raid make-up and how you plan on executing your shot rotation. I'd urge everyone to take a hard look at your difference between BM personal DPS and SV personal DPS and weigh EW with a grain of salt. You can theory craft it out to AP *.3 * # of DPSers all day, but in the real world people may or may not perform at 100% and a lot of fights have split DPS. Things like Kalegos where you may be on the Demon while all the people who benefit from you EW are on the Dragon, fights like Council where two of your raids DPS are interrupting on the Priest while you are shooting the Paladin to even fights like Teron or Brutelas where 2 of your buffees get ghost or die from aoe will all diminish the paper value of EW.
I feel that SV is like any other buff spec, ie Arms Warriors, Enhance Shaman, Boomkin etc. You have to do enough DPS on your own to make it worth bringing you in for your Buff. Doubly so if you are a class that has a pure dps spec and a buff dps spec such as hunters. In my experience so far, I find I really have to constantly tweak my play as SV to make it worth it in my eyes.
If you are reading this thread you are in the right place, just remember that every idea has merit and don't listen to the flamers when an new idea pops up. Things that perform better in tricked out groups are in all likelihood going to perform better in unbuffed groups.
| This week I took a [Fang of Kalecgos] just to play around. I went to ZA this week, same group as always, same 7/20/34 build and pulled 2k on the bear and hawk bosses, pretty much equaling my BM numbers. |
| The extra haste from the dagger coupled with drums and the 15% from hawk does push me to a 3:2 with /castsequence. |
Last edited by Kabuto : Yesterday at 10:20 AM. Reason: editted quote
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a 3:2 with /castsequence Which macro would this be? |
3:2, 2:1, 1:1 are all shot roatations. All of these can be produced using
/cast !auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
Alternertivley
/cast !autoshot
/castsequence Steady Shot
Some people have found using castsequence will cut down on the macro producing more than 2 steadies per auto in an unhasted state. Both macros will go from 2:1 - > 3:2 -> 1:1 depending on your haste and latency. This leads me to the theory of why my dps took a substantial dps increase with just the additon of 25 haste rating.
Again depending on you haste rating either of the macros above will do 2:1. At some point of haste you will break into 3:2. Adding more haste will eventually put you at 1:1. For me 80 haste rating from drums of battle and 15% haste from IotH still had me at 2:1 with my macro. Hence the 1700ish dps I saw during the first run in question.
25 haste rating + 80 haste rating + 15% from IotH put me at a 3:2 roatation. I didn't pay much attention to what my DST procs were before and after, but I am confident that they were 3:2 with the dagger.
I have the following DPS during Ioth and DST according to Cheeky's
Ioth
3:2 - 2087
2:1 - 1949
DST
3:2 - 2088
2:1 - 1888
Having enough of an haste to bump me into 3:2 or even 1:1 terriotory with my hawk and DST procs are cleary a big upgrade.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
I hunters marked Dr Boom and instantly held down my g15 macro at 25 cycles per second (DOWN - 0.02 delay - UP - 0.02 delay). When the hunters mark faded I instantly turned around/jumped to stop all shots. I recored the number of autoshots/steadyshots per test. I did each test twice, results seperated by a /.
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On topic, I have used the 2:1 macro for a while now, even though we still havent broken the T6 instances, and I love it. Thanks for all the valuable inputs you all have shared with the community here. Have found many good tips that has helped me dps harder in my SV role. Have been 20/41 for a good while now, but thinking as well on trying the IAotH build to see how that works with the 2:1 spam. Keep up the good discussions!
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Varon
The problem with the Gauntlets is that I planned to get the T6 Gloves next time the token drops (hopefully next week)...so I would be short on Hit again if I would switch Worgenclaw to Necklace of the Deep :/ Besides in my guild Crimson Spinel is only given out for items with no real upgrade in range :/
May I ask at which position you find yourself after Bossfights (in DMG-Meters)? |
Concerning where I find myself on the meters after boss fights, well that definitely depends on several factors, such as the nature of the boss fights, the buffs received, group synergy, and any special tasks I have during the fight, such as keeping up Scorpid or MDing spawns to the spawn tank when they come. On single-target bosses, I am typically in the top 5, even though lately I have found myself in groups that provides me very little benefit. When in the ideal group, I am usually in or very near the top 3 with only our rogues (who always get in the best physical DPS buff group and rightly so) consistently beating me, although I do beat them from time to time (the most common occurrences is on Fanthom Lord). On nights where we only have 2 pallies and I have to choose between Blessing of Might and Wisdom, I have fallen out of the top 5 but remain close. On AoE boss fights, I can somtimes remain in the top 5 but our best AoEers usually beat me.
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Originally Posted by Jander
I knew that even on paper EW was barely worth 500 DPS.
I almost gave up, telling myself that with these problems the /cast option can't possibly be better for me and expose weakness can't possibly be worth a 500-600 DPS loss from me being SV over BM in a real raid situation. |
And yes, I realize that value will decrease if you do not have the ideal buffs or under non-ideal boss fights (as all are). However, unless you completely stop your rotation for long stretches, even on fights with movement and interruptions, except for the worst cases, your EW uptime should not suffer too much, and the average EW AP should not drop that much either.
EDIT: And another thing to remember is that part of the reason your BM hunters DPS is so high is because of your EW to them and their pet, adding about 100-125 DPS to their totals. In addition, the extra TPS for the tanks can allow more DPS without pulling aggro, helping the numbers of the raid even more.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 04/06/08 at 2:39 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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If you can get the T6 gloves soon (I am hoping to get them this week myself), then ignore getting the badge gauntlets and save your badges for something else. Hopefully, you can acquire some other hit gear to help replace that neck. I am in a similar situation where I am forced to wear [Drape of the Dark Reavers] a lot. I do have [Halberd of Desolation] and [Ring of Deceitful Intent] to help out if I really need hit, but I prefer to dual weild if possible since those items provide better DPS (if I can make my hit cap other ways) and allows the use of double mana oils and hope to ditch the hit ring after the 2.4 badge loot becomes available on my server so I can use [Angelista's Revenge] along with the MT ring. Concerning where I find myself on the meters after boss fights, well that definitely depends on several factors, such as the nature of the boss fights, the buffs received, group synergy, and any special tasks I have during the fight, such as keeping up Scorpid or MDing spawns to the spawn tank when they come. On single-target bosses, I am typically in the top 5, even though lately I have found myself in groups that provides me very little benefit. When in the ideal group, I am usually in or very near the top 3 with only our rogues (who always get in the best physical DPS buff group and rightly so) consistently beating me, although I do beat them from time to time (the most common occurrences is on Fanthom Lord). On nights where we only have 2 pallies and I have to choose between Blessing of Might and Wisdom, I have fallen out of the top 5 but remain close. On AoE boss fights, I can somtimes remain in the top 5 but our best AoEers usually beat me. |
With the new specc (with readiness this time) I have the feeling that my damage is lower than usual...I have no mana problems, i crit alot (2k+ crits, some nice crit chains)...this time I even have a shaman with improved grace of air totem and my agility sums up to 1201 agi buffed...but it seems that i can't compete with the rest of the raid...Najentus was a bit unlucky...i died at 20% because whatever happened ^^ before my death I was at position 10...but Supremus...position 8...
Perhaps I just have to get used to the new specc...or the macros I use combined with the new specc are crap:
Normal Shot Macro (unhasted):
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#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot(Rank 1) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
Hasted Shot Macro
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#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
Last edited by Varon : 04/06/08 at 11:57 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I spec'd 7/20/34 for Brutallus and trying to use 2:1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
but this macro is doing me a 4:1 rotation, is it because of my 2.9 Legionkiller or I shouldn't spam macro?
EDIT: KC seems to bug this macro.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
but this macro is doing me a 4:1 rotation, is it because of my 2.9 Legionkiller or I shouldn't spam macro?
EDIT: KC seems to bug this macro.
Last edited by Dreamflow : 04/06/08 at 3:20 PM.
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Check your messages Intermission!
Well I was doing a 5/20/36 spec on Brutalus on Thursday.
Snipeshot - WWS
I just used a pretty simple macro.
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Although inconsistencies with the ratios for steady shot and auto shot are due to various haste effects that I was using.
I really do not see any way a survival hunter is going to be able to pop fel mana potions or even normal mana potions in this fight, and full toth seemed pretty essential to me. Even with a ret paladin keeping up judgment of wisdom on the boss.
Snipeshot - WWS
I just used a pretty simple macro.
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Although inconsistencies with the ratios for steady shot and auto shot are due to various haste effects that I was using.
I really do not see any way a survival hunter is going to be able to pop fel mana potions or even normal mana potions in this fight, and full toth seemed pretty essential to me. Even with a ret paladin keeping up judgment of wisdom on the boss.
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Originally Posted by Varon
Perhaps I just have to get used to the new specc...or the macros I use combined with the new specc are crap:
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In addition, since the /castrandom part does not enforce the true rotation by casting those specials when available, you may want to try hand-weaving the multishots and arcane shots on fights that are not too situational awareness intensive if you don't find that too difficult to do. What I do is rotating casting the multishot or arcane shot after every other steady. I try to cast it during the last 1/3 (0.5s) of the steady shot cast since it will not normally clip the steady cast then and will cast as soon as the steady shot is fired and before the autoshot. To implement this, I have the auto-steady cast macro in between my arcane shot and multishot buttons and spam the middle and then move to the specials when ready to cast them. This is easy to do and also provide me with the SA of when the specials are available. Other options include:
- combine the arcane shot and multishot casts into the same action bar slot with having one being cast on right click and the other on left
- same as above but with putting the auto-steady macro on the scroll wheel and spamming it and then right or left clicking for the specials when ready
- if you use hot keys, some folks have the full macro in a single hot key with using modifiers to indicate when to cast the specials
Some some ideas for you to try out and determine what works best for you.
Another thing to realize about the damage meters is that with you now putting up EW, you have just increased practically EVERYBODIES DPS in the raid. All the physical DPS's damage is directly improved by your EW. The caster's DPS can be indirectly improved by the fact that the tanks are now generating more threat allow them more room to DPS without pullling aggro.
Also, I am sure once you get comfortable with the change that your DPS will improve and you will move back up the meters.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
trinkets would need to be changed, eg both [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and [Dragonspine Trophy] become awsome pieces using the /cast macro and 2:1 rotation.
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Now some folks seam to doubt that the 2:1 can do 6 shots in 6 seconds. Well to be frank screw the theorycraft on this one. Off to boom again. Remove any haste proccing gear. Time a 120 second test using hunters mark. Use Recount to give a shot count. I usually get 79 Steady Shots and 39 Autos. Damn near close enough to one shot per second for me thank you very much. I personally do this every week to ensure macro is still functioning correctly. I actually say screw the theory craft as to why the /cast macro works and why it can deliver 1 shot per second average with very good reason. As of this moment in time nobody actually knows how the macro works, not even Cheeky.... |
Now on a side note, it seems to me, Tiberium, that you think everyone here is out to get you. You BOLD and underline a good majority of your statements, which instead of making your posts seem helpful, make them come off as arrogant and condescending. If you read Kurkis' posts he made, he never came off that way. People still may have flamed him or not listened to what he was saying, but they still talk about what he said, mostly because of how he said it and explained himself. I understand you want to get your point across, but maybe try doing it in a different way.
There are obvious issues with the 2:1 macro that cause clipping with people...and some people are able to fix that, and some are not. Gear also is another big issue...even with 4piece T6, it does not guarantee that you will produce more damage from a 2:1 rotation...again, it comes down to a person to person basis. Last has to do with group makeup. Kurkis even said it himself that the 2 most important people in a group with a Survival Hunter are a Feral Druid and an Enh Shaman. Well...thats not always possible for everyone. For myself, for example, we dont have a full time consistent Feral Druid...and its pretty rare when I get a Shaman over Rogues/Warrior/Warlocks/Mages (due to the fact that I dont add any group DPS, like a BM Hunter does with FI). Does that mean I never get either of those classes in my group? No, but its not something I can reasonably rely on.
Ive said it before, and ill say it again, I dont know everything there is to know about Hunters...and I dont claim to. The only advise I give is based on personal experience. I rarely will just spout information based on what other people say. If someone suggests something different than what im doing, I test it out for myself and see what happens. I rarely use Cheekys, because I would much rather tests it myself than have a spreadsheet tell me whats right and wrong. I am always open to people giving information on how I can improve myself, and at the same time, I am always willing to give helpful information out based on what has worked for me. But in the end, what works for one person, or even a majority of people, my not work for everyone due to a variety of factors that we may not have any control over.
Last edited by Sore82 : 04/06/08 at 3:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
I spec'd 7/20/34 for Brutallus and trying to use 2:1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); but this macro is doing me a 4:1 rotation, is it because of my 2.9 Legionkiller or I shouldn't spam macro? EDIT: KC seems to bug this macro. |
MACRO 1: #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() MACRO 2: /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
3:2 Steady Macro DPS proof
Its a little weird to set up, so be sure and read the instructions first. This seems to help fix the bug for a lot of people...I tried it and it seemed to work ok, but I still need to work with it more.
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Originally Posted by Dreamflow
I spec'd 7/20/34 for Brutallus and trying to use 2:1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); but this macro is doing me a 4:1 rotation, is it because of my 2.9 Legionkiller or I shouldn't spam macro? EDIT: KC seems to bug this macro. |
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Originally Posted by Joheltro
Hi, I recently got myself the G15, but now I cant seem to find the links to how I make "macros" like these anymore. Can you provide some easy explaination or a link for me? I would be very greatful.
On topic, I have used the 2:1 macro for a while now, even though we still havent broken the T6 instances, and I love it. Thanks for all the valuable inputs you all have shared with the community here. Have found many good tips that has helped me dps harder in my SV role. Have been 20/41 for a good while now, but thinking as well on trying the IAotH build to see how that works with the 2:1 spam. Keep up the good discussions! |
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Try this macro, looks like this:
MACRO 1: #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() MACRO 2: /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot 3:2 Steady Macro DPS proof Its a little weird to set up, so be sure and read the instructions first. This seems to help fix the bug for a lot of people...I tried it and it seemed to work ok, but I still need to work with it more. |
I have that macro as BM and tried it, but it doesn't works.
WRT the issues of the
/cast !Auto Shot
/case Steady Shot
macro chaining steadies, why not make a number of macros and manually switch between them during the appropriate haste-ratings?
like:
/castsequence Steady Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
and
/castsequence Steady Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
Is there some reason besides the convenience to need the morphing macro?
/cast !Auto Shot
/case Steady Shot
macro chaining steadies, why not make a number of macros and manually switch between them during the appropriate haste-ratings?
like:
/castsequence Steady Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
and
/castsequence Steady Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
Is there some reason besides the convenience to need the morphing macro?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
/castsequence peforms rather poorly in macros across the board. You end up eating 2x your latency. At low latency levels this can be acceptable but if you are in 200+ms land then it really does gimp your dps.
I have seen a few people reference my use of /castsequence Steady Shot on a line by itself here recently. That was a while back iirc and a subsequent patch or a change in my latency made it not work any better than anything else for me. Also at some point (after a patch) I measured my shot counts aand determined that it was performing significantly worse than /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot so I switched away from it. I probably should have posted something. The end result is if you want to use macros because of the elevated situational awareness and possibly easy with dealing with haste effects (depends on the macro used) then you really need to sit down with recount and do two minute shot tests with each kind to see what works best for you. Your own personal latency, weapon speed and the amount of static haste you run around with are the biggest factors in how well these work.
My observation has been that steady shot chainss if you are spamming the macro and the steady shot and auto shot land very close to eachother. As you add haste you significantly reduce the chance of this happening because more deadtime exists between the steady shot cast time (which scales with haste) and the GCD (which does not). The same is true as latency increases, just on the other side. The dead time exists before the next steady fires. Wither of these situations give auto shot plenty of time to fire. When latency is low and there is no haste there is a smaller window and steadys tend to chian.
It has also been my experience that trying to use kill command as SV spec (basically without much static haste) significantly reduces the number of shots I fire per second. This is true if I have KC at the top or bottom of the macro. For that reason I dont do it.
I have seen a few people reference my use of /castsequence Steady Shot on a line by itself here recently. That was a while back iirc and a subsequent patch or a change in my latency made it not work any better than anything else for me. Also at some point (after a patch) I measured my shot counts aand determined that it was performing significantly worse than /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot so I switched away from it. I probably should have posted something. The end result is if you want to use macros because of the elevated situational awareness and possibly easy with dealing with haste effects (depends on the macro used) then you really need to sit down with recount and do two minute shot tests with each kind to see what works best for you. Your own personal latency, weapon speed and the amount of static haste you run around with are the biggest factors in how well these work.
My observation has been that steady shot chainss if you are spamming the macro and the steady shot and auto shot land very close to eachother. As you add haste you significantly reduce the chance of this happening because more deadtime exists between the steady shot cast time (which scales with haste) and the GCD (which does not). The same is true as latency increases, just on the other side. The dead time exists before the next steady fires. Wither of these situations give auto shot plenty of time to fire. When latency is low and there is no haste there is a smaller window and steadys tend to chian.
It has also been my experience that trying to use kill command as SV spec (basically without much static haste) significantly reduces the number of shots I fire per second. This is true if I have KC at the top or bottom of the macro. For that reason I dont do it.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 04/06/08 at 5:23 PM.
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The versions of your macros are castsequence macros, which can hurt your performance under certain conditions documented in this thread and the hunter rotations thread. Suggest trying out macro with replacing the castsequence part with /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot to see if the timing of your shots and your DPS improves. In addition, since the /castrandom part does not enforce the true rotation by casting those specials when available, you may want to try hand-weaving the multishots and arcane shots on fights that are not too situational awareness intensive if you don't find that too difficult to do. What I do is rotating casting the multishot or arcane shot after every other steady. I try to cast it during the last 1/3 (0.5s) of the steady shot cast since it will not normally clip the steady cast then and will cast as soon as the steady shot is fired and before the autoshot. To implement this, I have the auto-steady cast macro in between my arcane shot and multishot buttons and spam the middle and then move to the specials when ready to cast them. This is easy to do and also provide me with the SA of when the specials are available. Other options include: - combine the arcane shot and multishot casts into the same action bar slot with having one being cast on right click and the other on left - same as above but with putting the auto-steady macro on the scroll wheel and spamming it and then right or left clicking for the specials when ready - if you use hot keys, some folks have the full macro in a single hot key with using modifiers to indicate when to cast the specials Some some ideas for you to try out and determine what works best for you. Another thing to realize about the damage meters is that with you now putting up EW, you have just increased practically EVERYBODIES DPS in the raid. All the physical DPS's damage is directly improved by your EW. The caster's DPS can be indirectly improved by the fact that the tanks are now generating more threat allow them more room to DPS without pullling aggro. Also, I am sure once you get comfortable with the change that your DPS will improve and you will move back up the meters. |
Thank you again!
I used these Macros with my G15 bound to a key with a 0,02sec repeat because it fit my latency of 23ms during raids (cable internet)...
Later today as we tried Gorefiend I changed my macro and had my DPS recorded with Recount...during all trys I had around 1300DPS beeing position 3-5...one try I aggroed Gorefiend after a crit chain with 7 or 8 2k+ Crits, Rapid Fire and Bloodlust Brooch on...and sadly I had FD not ready ^_^
I used this macro:
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#showtooltip Steady Shot /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(Rank 1), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
QuiggyB wrote:
| It has also been my experience that trying to use kill command as SV spec (basically without much static haste) significantly reduces the number of shots I fire per second. This is true if I have KC at the top or bottom of the macro. For that reason I dont do it. |
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
/castsequence peforms rather poorly in macros across the board. You end up eating 2x your latency. At low latency levels this can be acceptable but if you are in 200+ms land then it really does gimp your dps.
I have seen a few people reference my use of /castsequence Steady Shot on a line by itself here recently. That was a while back iirc and a subsequent patch or a change in my latency made it not work any better than anything else for me. Also at some point (after a patch) I measured my shot counts aand determined that it was performing significantly worse than /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot so I switched away from it. I probably should have posted something. The end result is if you want to use macros because of the elevated situational awareness and possibly easy with dealing with haste effects (depends on the macro used) then you really need to sit down with recount and do two minute shot tests with each kind to see what works best for you. Your own personal latency, weapon speed and the amount of static haste you run around with are the biggest factors in how well these work. My observation has been that steady shot chainss if you are spamming the macro and the steady shot and auto shot land very close to eachother. As you add haste you significantly reduce the chance of this happening because more deadtime exists between the steady shot cast time (which scales with haste) and the GCD (which does not). The same is true as latency increases, just on the other side. The dead time exists before the next steady fires. Wither of these situations give auto shot plenty of time to fire. When latency is low and there is no haste there is a smaller window and steadys tend to chian. It has also been my experience that trying to use kill command as SV spec (basically without much static haste) significantly reduces the number of shots I fire per second. This is true if I have KC at the top or bottom of the macro. For that reason I dont do it. |
Another odd note, while I was testing KC, I was out in Blasted Lands...and for whatever reason, noticed a much higher rate of my Auto Shot getting "stuck" then when I did it against Boom. I tried using the same macro, and other various settings, but for whatever reason, the rate at which Auto would get stuck, seemed higher. Latency was still around 140-150, so I dont think that was the issue. Very weird.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Joheltro
Hi, I recently got myself the G15, but now I cant seem to find the links to how I make "macros" like these anymore. Can you provide some easy explaination or a link for me? I would be very greatful.
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Click on the button you want to assign, eg g9 or g12. Click Macro Manager.
Create a new macro. Pick a key you dont use for anything else. I chose F9-F12 type keys.
While recording, press the chosen button once. Stop recording. Manually insert a time delay after the press down, and after the release. It will look like this:
F11 Down
0.020 delay
F11 Up
0.020 delay
Press OK out of that window, and click on the g15 button you used again, and click Repeat Options -> While Pressed. This will make the cycle loop while you press the g15 button.
So now go back into WoW. I use Bongos action bars, and I make an action bar with low opacity and very small, and I put it in the corner of my screen (or just hide it). I set the bar to around 4 buttons, and I assign the ingame macro to the appropriate button, then assign that button to the F11 hotkey, which in turn makes the g15 button work.
So now when you hold down the button, it will "push down F11" every 0.040 seconds. If you tighten up the time too much, it can slow your WoW fps quite a lot, so I dont recommend using 0.005 delay or anything that small.
Thats the easy part. Actually finding a macro that does dps close to hand weaving is the hard part.
| Another odd note, while I was testing KC, I was out in Blasted Lands...and for whatever reason, noticed a much higher rate of my Auto Shot getting "stuck" then when I did it against Boom. I tried using the same macro, and other various settings, but for whatever reason, the rate at which Auto would get stuck, seemed higher. Latency was still around 140-150, so I dont think that was the issue. Very weird. |
I swear they're trying to fuck with us:
"Hey, lets make this macro work decently on the test-mob that hunters have resorted to using to find out anything about the class that we don't even know how it works so we haven't released any mechanics information on... but make it break with any single difference in latency/network traffic/fps/haste/weapon speed/zone change/server population/or if a butterfly shits on a molten giant."
"We could just make auto-shot like auto-attack"
"Dont be silly"
</cynicism>
Last edited by Intermission : 04/06/08 at 9:13 PM. Reason: added second quote & response
I hadn't thought of using a 2:1 until a couple of days ago when it was brought back up in this thread - went to IC, Illidan and Hyjal last night and managed to get to 1400DPS sustained on some of the fights - the highest numbers I've seen yet, better than a 3:2 or 1.5:1
Used a 20/41 to do it, wonderful for the time you're able to sit and shoot, and so much more mana efficient - on IC I spent almost no time in Viper when i'd usually spend up to half the fight in it. I normally raid between 200-300ms - I was finding it clipping my autos a little, but not to a degree where I'd consider going to 3:2.
Used a 20/41 to do it, wonderful for the time you're able to sit and shoot, and so much more mana efficient - on IC I spent almost no time in Viper when i'd usually spend up to half the fight in it. I normally raid between 200-300ms - I was finding it clipping my autos a little, but not to a degree where I'd consider going to 3:2.
So, I tried the 2:1 through BT this week. I respeced to 0/20/41 and changed my normal 1.5:1 macro to the standard 2:1 /cast macro. Here are my initial thoughts:
First of all, as I stated just before in my previous post...the 2:1 has issues. First thing I noticed on fights like Teron/Mother /RoS...any time you get hit, it has a good chance to mess up the macro...especially while hasted. I found it getting stuck casting Steady Shot on thouse fights and had to lift off of the macro and wait for it to start casting Auto before it would be ok again. But for the most part, those fights really sucked. The next issue that revolves around the same thing is using consumables or casting Rapid Fire/Readiness...doing this was not as easy as a 1.5:1. In my 1.5:1 macro, I could easily keep the macro button held down and spam click Hunters Mark or a Mana Pot or whatever and it would work. With the 2:1, it seemed to get pissed off if I tried to do that. It would sometimes get stuck on Stead if I did that...so in the end, I actuaily had to just stop pressing my macro button, drink/cast whatever, and then go back to what I was doing.
Now, having said all that, the macro DID work for the most part when those issues I just talked about were not going on. On fights like Council, you can see from my WWS that the 2:1 worked near perfectly. I will admit that I did not use [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness], mostly because I had a hard time believing it would out preform Berserkers Call or Tsunami Talisman, and from browsing the forums, most people agreed. I dont have a DST, so I could not use that either, obviously. However, having said that, I highly doubt that having either of those trinkets would make THAT huge of a difference in my DPS...im sure they might add some, but not some crazy amount (like 100DPS).
Here are my WWS from last week (when I used my standard 1.5:1, and 3:2 while hasted) macro, and this weeks 2:1 ONLY macro. I did not skimp on pots or anything...and for the most part, the group makeups were the same. I had a BM with me for all the fights this week, but thats all for group buffs. Last week I think I had a Feral in for Council (but I died at like 30%).
Im not saying one thing or another about the macro...just posting my results from 1 weeks worth of trying out the macro:
Last Week
Wow Web Stats
This Week
Wow Web Stats
I will be keeping the 2:1 through at least Brut/Felmyst this coming week...I want to test it on them for sure compared to my previous weeks.
Also take note, I did change pets, from Wind Serpent to Ravager. I dont know what it was, but when I had the Lightning Breath command in my macro, it had a higher chance of messing up the 2:1 macro. I also did not use Kill Command at all for the same reason. And last point, my pet died pretty early this week on Council (like within the first 10-20%)...I have a feeling that if it had lived, I would have done a good amount more damage/DPS.
First of all, as I stated just before in my previous post...the 2:1 has issues. First thing I noticed on fights like Teron/Mother /RoS...any time you get hit, it has a good chance to mess up the macro...especially while hasted. I found it getting stuck casting Steady Shot on thouse fights and had to lift off of the macro and wait for it to start casting Auto before it would be ok again. But for the most part, those fights really sucked. The next issue that revolves around the same thing is using consumables or casting Rapid Fire/Readiness...doing this was not as easy as a 1.5:1. In my 1.5:1 macro, I could easily keep the macro button held down and spam click Hunters Mark or a Mana Pot or whatever and it would work. With the 2:1, it seemed to get pissed off if I tried to do that. It would sometimes get stuck on Stead if I did that...so in the end, I actuaily had to just stop pressing my macro button, drink/cast whatever, and then go back to what I was doing.
Now, having said all that, the macro DID work for the most part when those issues I just talked about were not going on. On fights like Council, you can see from my WWS that the 2:1 worked near perfectly. I will admit that I did not use [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness], mostly because I had a hard time believing it would out preform Berserkers Call or Tsunami Talisman, and from browsing the forums, most people agreed. I dont have a DST, so I could not use that either, obviously. However, having said that, I highly doubt that having either of those trinkets would make THAT huge of a difference in my DPS...im sure they might add some, but not some crazy amount (like 100DPS).
Here are my WWS from last week (when I used my standard 1.5:1, and 3:2 while hasted) macro, and this weeks 2:1 ONLY macro. I did not skimp on pots or anything...and for the most part, the group makeups were the same. I had a BM with me for all the fights this week, but thats all for group buffs. Last week I think I had a Feral in for Council (but I died at like 30%).
Im not saying one thing or another about the macro...just posting my results from 1 weeks worth of trying out the macro:
Last Week
Wow Web Stats
This Week
Wow Web Stats
I will be keeping the 2:1 through at least Brut/Felmyst this coming week...I want to test it on them for sure compared to my previous weeks.
Also take note, I did change pets, from Wind Serpent to Ravager. I dont know what it was, but when I had the Lightning Breath command in my macro, it had a higher chance of messing up the 2:1 macro. I also did not use Kill Command at all for the same reason. And last point, my pet died pretty early this week on Council (like within the first 10-20%)...I have a feeling that if it had lived, I would have done a good amount more damage/DPS.
Last edited by Sore82 : Yesterday at 12:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Open your Logitech G-series Keyboard Profiler (probably one of your taskbar icons).
Click on the button you want to assign, eg g9 or g12. Click Macro Manager. Create a new macro. Pick a key you dont use for anything else. I chose F9-F12 type keys. While recording, press the chosen button once. Stop recording. Manually insert a time delay after the press down, and after the release. It will look like this: F11 Down 0.020 delay F11 Up 0.020 delay Press OK out of that window, and click on the g15 button you used again, and click Repeat Options -> While Pressed. This will make the cycle loop while you press the g15 button. So now go back into WoW. I use Bongos action bars, and I make an action bar with low opacity and very small, and I put it in the corner of my screen (or just hide it). I set the bar to around 4 buttons, and I assign the ingame macro to the appropriate button, then assign that button to the F11 hotkey, which in turn makes the g15 button work. So now when you hold down the button, it will "push down F11" every 0.040 seconds. If you tighten up the time too much, it can slow your WoW fps quite a lot, so I dont recommend using 0.005 delay or anything that small. Thats the easy part. Actually finding a macro that does dps close to hand weaving is the hard part. |
After reading more posts it seems like you're just holding the button down which seems like a bit of a bother to me, especially on movement fights cause you're having to move your hand around alot more. But its still something I would like to try out.
Last edited by Aern : Yesterday at 1:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Aern
Ok well I set it up and it seems when i press the button i bound it to (g9) it doesnt want to loop, even though i've set it to repeat. When I hold the key down it does the same thing, just fires 1 steady then just fires auto-shots over and over no more steady casts. When I spam the button it spams the shots but still ends up chaining on rare occasions. Not sure if this is how it was supposed to work but I was under the assumption that once I press the button it should repeat the command over and over until canceled. Or I guess thats just what I was hoping for.
|
Ok, I had this same issue while trying to set up my G15...so I think I can help. Ill do a nice little step by step for you so that hopefully we can get this to work for you.
The first step you need to do is go into your G15 program. Once in there click "Settings" and then "Profiler".
Once in there, click the "Profile" tab, and make sure BOTH of the options are checked (turned on) and are set to "Default Configuration". Save your settings.
Now, while in game, press the "MR" button on your G15 keyboard.
Once pressed, click the G# key you want to use.
Now press the number or letter that is bound to your shot macro. So, for example, if my Macro was bound to the "1" key, I would press "MR" then G# then "1"
Now, tab out of the game and go into your G15 program. Make sure you are in the "Default Configuration" Profile and not the "World of Warcraft" one; if you are in the "World of Warcraft" one, click the scroll down window and choose "Default Configuration"
You should notice that whichever G# key you hit will have a "Quick Macro" typed on it.
Click on the G# key you assigned to your macro and then click on "Macro Manager".
You should see 2 arrows (one going up and one going down). In between the arrows, you need to place a delay (if it is not already in there. I use 0.200. The macro should look like this (up and down though) : -> 0.200 sec delay <-
Hit "OK" and you will be back in the main program screen.
Click on the G# key you assigned to your macro again and click on "Repeat Options" and click on "While Pressed". You can also choose "Toggle", which will auto-cast the macro for you without you having to hold it down. NOTE - that with this option, the macro will only turn off if you hit the G# button again.
Now you should be good to go. Doing this should spam the macro every .2 seconds either when you hold down the macro "While Pressed" or constantly when you "Toggle" the G#.
Hopefully, this works for you.
| After reading more posts it seems like you're just holding the button down which seems like a bit of a bother to me, especially on movement fights cause you're having to move your hand around alot more. But its still something I would like to try out. |
Last edited by Sore82 : Yesterday at 1:43 AM.
Yeah I ended up using a few quick macros for the g7-11 keys to make things like FD RF Readiness and Blood Fury/ Zerker's Call easier to get to. Problem seemed to be I didn't have it set to default, it was on the wow profile instead, prolly missed it in the original instructions. Thank you very much for the help, I'll try and get yall some numbers from brut this week and hopefully from a felmyst kill if we can get our act together.
One huge problem I see with holding down the button is that its not easy to get to my press to talk key, what will my guild do without my abnoxious blabbering all the time?!?!?!
Also I tried out adding in /castsequence instead of just /cast for steady shot and I definitely did feel a slightly slower start on second steady, it seems to me like the castsequence is a round about attempt to fix the chaining problem by slowing down the casting of your steady shots and hopefully allowing that little bit of extra room auto shot needs to go off. So it might look like a good way to solve the problem but it doesn't completely fix it from what I've tested and it ends up lowering dps anyway.
One huge problem I see with holding down the button is that its not easy to get to my press to talk key, what will my guild do without my abnoxious blabbering all the time?!?!?!
Also I tried out adding in /castsequence instead of just /cast for steady shot and I definitely did feel a slightly slower start on second steady, it seems to me like the castsequence is a round about attempt to fix the chaining problem by slowing down the casting of your steady shots and hopefully allowing that little bit of extra room auto shot needs to go off. So it might look like a good way to solve the problem but it doesn't completely fix it from what I've tested and it ends up lowering dps anyway.
Last edited by Aern : Yesterday at 1:48 AM.
I tested some macros on Boom today (bound to a g15 key with 20ms down/up -> 40ms repeat time as stated before by Intermission)
No haste used...
I cast Huntersmark and waited for the timer to count down to 1min20sec and then startet to push the button:
1:1 Macro:
Results: 33 Autoshots and 32 Steady Shots -> 65 Shots fired...
1:1.X with Arcane:
Results: 32 Auto Shots, 32 Steadyshots and 11 Arcane Shots -> 75 Shots fired...
Manually written 1:1.5 Macro with Arcane and Multi:
Results: 32 Autoshots, 31 Steady Shots, 8 Multi-Shots, 7 Arcane Shots -> 78 Shots fired...
So I get something about 0.5 to 0.7 Shots per second...
Are these results ok? 1:1 seems fine...and for the other 2 Macros a 1:1.5 rotation should have been the result...
Shot Rotations are the one ting that I don't fully understand... ^_^
Another Question would concerne KC...I always thougth one should use it because it means +dmg and more dps for the hunter...but in the last few days I read many posts about KC messing with the Shot Rotation...so use it in the macro or not?
PS: I'll try the /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot Macro without /castsequence, too...results will follow!
Results:
Using /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot Macro without /castsequence was horrible...there were 3 or more steadys in a row before another autoshot :/
No haste used...
I cast Huntersmark and waited for the timer to count down to 1min20sec and then startet to push the button:
1:1 Macro:
|
#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
1:1.X with Arcane:
|
#showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castrandom Arcane Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
Manually written 1:1.5 Macro with Arcane and Multi:
|
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(Rank 1), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 |
So I get something about 0.5 to 0.7 Shots per second...
Are these results ok? 1:1 seems fine...and for the other 2 Macros a 1:1.5 rotation should have been the result...
Shot Rotations are the one ting that I don't fully understand... ^_^
Another Question would concerne KC...I always thougth one should use it because it means +dmg and more dps for the hunter...but in the last few days I read many posts about KC messing with the Shot Rotation...so use it in the macro or not?
PS: I'll try the /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot Macro without /castsequence, too...results will follow!
Results:
Using /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot Macro without /castsequence was horrible...there were 3 or more steadys in a row before another autoshot :/
Last edited by Varon : Yesterday at 8:44 AM.
Is there a difference between a /cast steady shot /cast !autoshot macro and just spamming the steady shot button out of your spellbook? They perform the same for me, and logically speaking they seem exactly the same.
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Originally Posted by volant
Is there a difference between a /cast steady shot /cast !autoshot macro and just spamming the steady shot button out of your spellbook? They perform the same for me, and logically speaking they seem exactly the same.
|
But yes, in its most basic forum, spaming "Steady Shot" out of your spellbook will do the same thing as the /cast macro.
But you could do all that with a macro that's just /cast Steady Shot. So the autoshot line is completely extraneous?
Doesn't having both in the macro theoretically 'guarantee' that an auto shot will get off when it can? Or is that why the
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
isn't working cleanly except at certain haste levels? Because the /cast !Auto Shot line is essentially just wasted space?
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
isn't working cleanly except at certain haste levels? Because the /cast !Auto Shot line is essentially just wasted space?
Evaluating Survival Viability in Early T6
As a follower of this thread, I decided to give Survival a try shortly after my guild downed Kael/Vashj. I've enjoyed the change of pace from BM, but I'm worried that I'm not contributing as much raid DPS as Survival even when Expose Weakness is taken into account. With normal raid buffs (not including group-specific buffs like GoA and LotP), I sit at ~2500 AP, ~40% crit, and ~900 Agility (0/20/41 spec).
Problem #1 is gear. We're 5/5 Hyjal, 3/9 BT, but I haven't seen anything of note drop for me yet. I expect my stats are low for this level of progression, but I'm looking for confirmation of this fact.
Problem #2 is grouping. My understanding is that Survival hunters (and the raid) benefit immensely from GoA totems. However, we're a pretty caster-heavy guild and the grouping reflects as such. A typical raid features a caster group (4 warlocks/shadow priests + elemental shaman), melee group (3 rogues, enh shaman, feral druid, maybe a ret pally in place of a rogue), and an 'other' group (2 mages, shadow priest, BM hunter or resto shaman, and me). It's uncommon that I'm in a group with a shaman, and if I am, Groups 3 and 5 want Wrath of Air and Group 4 wants Windfury. I understand these groupings and totem choices, but the fact remains that I miss out on almost 100 Agility (roughly 100 personal and 50 raid DPS) as a result.
Cheeky's shows BM with a raw 60 DPS edge. Adding 3% from FI * 3 group DPS * 1000 DPS is another 90 for 150 DPS total. At 900 Agility, I give 225 AP * 6 physical DPSers * 0.2 DPS/AP is 270 DPS, so on paper Survival looks like it's 120 DPS ahead. But this is for perfect raid conditions with everyone alive, no split DPS, etc etc. The DPS difference is close enough that it sounds like Survival is only situationally better than BM.
So my questions are:
A) Is my gear level sufficient to justify specing Survival over BM?
B) Is Survival still viable even without Grace of Air? Is there an argument to be made for switching up our raid groups that results in a net DPS increase?
Basically I'm trying to figure out if staying Survival makes sense from a raid DPS perspective. I don't mind being lower on DPS meters if I'm confident I'm providing enough raid DPS to make up for it. But like this thread says, I need to be able to justify my raid slot even during non-optimal raid conditions and I'm not sure that I do right now. Any comments are appreciated.
Problem #1 is gear. We're 5/5 Hyjal, 3/9 BT, but I haven't seen anything of note drop for me yet. I expect my stats are low for this level of progression, but I'm looking for confirmation of this fact.
Problem #2 is grouping. My understanding is that Survival hunters (and the raid) benefit immensely from GoA totems. However, we're a pretty caster-heavy guild and the grouping reflects as such. A typical raid features a caster group (4 warlocks/shadow priests + elemental shaman), melee group (3 rogues, enh shaman, feral druid, maybe a ret pally in place of a rogue), and an 'other' group (2 mages, shadow priest, BM hunter or resto shaman, and me). It's uncommon that I'm in a group with a shaman, and if I am, Groups 3 and 5 want Wrath of Air and Group 4 wants Windfury. I understand these groupings and totem choices, but the fact remains that I miss out on almost 100 Agility (roughly 100 personal and 50 raid DPS) as a result.
Cheeky's shows BM with a raw 60 DPS edge. Adding 3% from FI * 3 group DPS * 1000 DPS is another 90 for 150 DPS total. At 900 Agility, I give 225 AP * 6 physical DPSers * 0.2 DPS/AP is 270 DPS, so on paper Survival looks like it's 120 DPS ahead. But this is for perfect raid conditions with everyone alive, no split DPS, etc etc. The DPS difference is close enough that it sounds like Survival is only situationally better than BM.
So my questions are:
A) Is my gear level sufficient to justify specing Survival over BM?
B) Is Survival still viable even without Grace of Air? Is there an argument to be made for switching up our raid groups that results in a net DPS increase?
Basically I'm trying to figure out if staying Survival makes sense from a raid DPS perspective. I don't mind being lower on DPS meters if I'm confident I'm providing enough raid DPS to make up for it. But like this thread says, I need to be able to justify my raid slot even during non-optimal raid conditions and I'm not sure that I do right now. Any comments are appreciated.
Umm....forgive me if this is a totally stupid question, but is the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] as big an upgrade to the [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] as it looks for a survival hunter? I haven't gotten into Cheeky's spreadsheet yet, and I'm wondering if that's an effective use of 150 badges. I'm losing agility, I don't need the hit rating, and I have no idea whether I'd prefer 2.8 over 2.9, or if it even matters. I'll admit I'm a little clueless as to how much that extra 10dps compares to the loss of agility.
Thanks!
Thanks!
What makes /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot work is haste. The Steady Shot that causes the Auto Shot to be pushed back is so much shorter than the global cooldown that it allows the Auto Shot to cast before the GCD is ready. Without haste, you end up spamming Steady Shot most of the time.
Personally, I prefer Steady Multi Auto, Steady Auto, Steady Arcane Auto, Steady Auto.
I tried Improved Arcane Shot but I feel the damage lost from GFTT is not worth it. GFTT with a Wind Serpent is highly underestimated as Survival.
Personally, I prefer Steady Multi Auto, Steady Auto, Steady Arcane Auto, Steady Auto.
I tried Improved Arcane Shot but I feel the damage lost from GFTT is not worth it. GFTT with a Wind Serpent is highly underestimated as Survival.
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Originally Posted by Kierran
As a follower of this thread, I decided to give Survival a try shortly after my guild downed Kael/Vashj. I've enjoyed the change of pace from BM, but I'm worried that I'm not contributing as much raid DPS as Survival even when Expose Weakness is taken into account. With normal raid buffs (not including group-specific buffs like GoA and LotP), I sit at ~2500 AP, ~40% crit, and ~900 Agility (0/20/41 spec).
Problem #1 is gear. We're 5/5 Hyjal, 3/9 BT, but I haven't seen anything of note drop for me yet. I expect my stats are low for this level of progression, but I'm looking for confirmation of this fact. Problem #2 is grouping. My understanding is that Survival hunters (and the raid) benefit immensely from GoA totems. However, we're a pretty caster-heavy guild and the grouping reflects as such. A typical raid features a caster group (4 warlocks/shadow priests + elemental shaman), melee group (3 rogues, enh shaman, feral druid, maybe a ret pally in place of a rogue), and an 'other' group (2 mages, shadow priest, BM hunter or resto shaman, and me). It's uncommon that I'm in a group with a shaman, and if I am, Groups 3 and 5 want Wrath of Air and Group 4 wants Windfury. I understand these groupings and totem choices, but the fact remains that I miss out on almost 100 Agility (roughly 100 personal and 50 raid DPS) as a result. Cheeky's shows BM with a raw 60 DPS edge. Adding 3% from FI * 3 group DPS * 1000 DPS is another 90 for 150 DPS total. At 900 Agility, I give 225 AP * 6 physical DPSers * 0.2 DPS/AP is 270 DPS, so on paper Survival looks like it's 120 DPS ahead. But this is for perfect raid conditions with everyone alive, no split DPS, etc etc. The DPS difference is close enough that it sounds like Survival is only situationally better than BM. So my questions are: A) Is my gear level sufficient to justify specing Survival over BM? B) Is Survival still viable even without Grace of Air? Is there an argument to be made for switching up our raid groups that results in a net DPS increase? Basically I'm trying to figure out if staying Survival makes sense from a raid DPS perspective. I don't mind being lower on DPS meters if I'm confident I'm providing enough raid DPS to make up for it. But like this thread says, I need to be able to justify my raid slot even during non-optimal raid conditions and I'm not sure that I do right now. Any comments are appreciated. |
A) Your gear IS quite unsuited to a raid support survival build, I'll give you that. The Vengeful weapon slots and engi trinket are abysmal, really, but I blame that on bad luck with survival drops, and not really planning your upgrades for the spec. However, if you compromise and use survival as a personal dps spec with the perk of addded raid buffing, you can work around that until you get adequate gear. See this thread for what to aim for
B) Yes, it is viable even without GOA. Survival is a raid utility build, granted. But in equal gear, SV personal dps should not be far behind a BM hunter. And you'd also benefit from the added utility of the spec (lower hit cap, mana returns, readiness if you have it), which allow you to regain some ground in most real raid situations.
I raid without GOA most of the times. Why? Rogues, warriors, even a retri pally need WF a lot more. It's a key component to their dps in the case of arms warriors and retri pallies, and a significant boost to rogues and fury warriors. And my melee own. I think they're worth buffing, even if that means gimping my own immediate figures. I did that by speccing survival. If I got GOA over WF away from them, I'd be back to square one, when I was still BM. I'd take back whatever buffs I'd give them, and all the figures would be the same as before.
What's GOA for me? about 100 agility, raid buffed. That's a bit of crit, 100 more AP, and 25 raid wise AP. However, since you probably spec Survival to assist your physical dps crew, the question is... will about 1 or 2 extra dps (25 AP) per physical damage dealer be worth more than a Windfury for 4 others? No. Not even close. Not even the bonus to your own dps isn't worth it. You're one person getting buffed, as opposed to 4 others in the melee group. That doesn't mean you don't bring enough utility to the raid. It just means an enha shaman would be better placed somewhere else.
Ideally, though, if you could get stuck with a feral druid, shadow priest and resto shaman group, and maybe another hunter or two, you'd probably have a realistic chance at GOA, while also getting some substantial dps increase via LOTP (and maybe Trueshot Aura or Ferocious Inspiration), and a decent increase to dps uptime from the shadowpriest. It helps that as a survival hunter that your buffs are raid wide, and as such benefit people outside your on group (both Expose Weakness and Improved hunter's Mark, if you have it).
While we're at it, you probably don't want to get stuck in the melee group just to get a shot at an enha shaman, because WF takes priority over GOA, regardless of you and any feral druid that might be in there. You'd effectively gain negative synergy (not contributing, not gaining anything), as I like to call it, via Battle Shout and Windfury, while losing at least part of your sustained dps capacity (from mana totems and/or shadowpriests). You're better off not aiming for GOA if that's the case.
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
What makes /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot work is haste. The Steady Shot that causes the Auto Shot to be pushed back is so much shorter than the global cooldown that it allows the Auto Shot to cast before the GCD is ready. Without haste, you end up spamming Steady Shot most of the time.
Personally, I prefer Steady Multi Auto, Steady Auto, Steady Arcane Auto, Steady Auto. I tried Improved Arcane Shot but I feel the damage lost from GFTT is not worth it. GFTT with a Wind Serpent is highly underestimated as Survival. |
If you aren't hasted enough to get the Steady Shot cast time less than the GCD (which is 1.5sec, right?) then it's almost surely not going to work, and if you have other things (like Kill Command) filling in the extra space in the GCD they can bump the Auto Shot out as well.
From that description the /cast Steady Shot macro should work under the hasted situations as long as you have Auto Shot already toggled on, has anyone ever tested to see if that would work?
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Originally Posted by Arzen
Umm....forgive me if this is a totally stupid question, but is the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] as big an upgrade to the [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] as it looks for a survival hunter? I haven't gotten into Cheeky's spreadsheet yet, and I'm wondering if that's an effective use of 150 badges. I'm losing agility, I don't need the hit rating, and I have no idea whether I'd prefer 2.8 over 2.9, or if it even matters. I'll admit I'm a little clueless as to how much that extra 10dps compares to the loss of agility.
Thanks! |
If you're spamming a 3:2, it's a 20 dps upgrade over Sunfury, but both are on the order of 150 dps lower than a 1:1.5 rotation.
*this is with my current 0/24/37 spec and gear. As always your results will vary.*
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Originally Posted by Enova
The Vengeful weapon slots and engi trinket are abysmal, really, but I blame that on bad luck with survival drops, and not really planning your upgrades for the spec.
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Originally Posted by Enova
B) Yes, it is viable even without GOA. Survival is a raid utility build, granted. But in equal gear, SV personal dps should not be far behind a BM hunter. And you'd also benefit from the added utility of the spec (lower hit cap, mana returns, readiness if you have it), which allow you to regain some ground in most real raid situations.
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I'll probably give 7/20/34 or 0/28/33 a try and see if I can up my personal DPS while minimizing the impact to EW. If I have the Shadow Priest anyway, might as well make the most of it.
Thanks for the input on my dilemma. I really like the spec and enjoy what I bring to the raid, but if the gear to support it doesn't start dropping soon, it'll be back to BM for me.
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Originally Posted by Enova
the question is... will about 1 or 2 extra dps (25 AP) per physical damage dealer be worth more than a Windfury for 4 others?
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And one mustn't forget that the tank (pallytanks much less so) gets the same bonus the physical melee and other Hunters get too, and pets as well. In the case of the tanks it will mean better aggrogeneration. And in the case of the melee it will mean less spiky threat. So if your raid is running close to the limit of the MT's threat capabilities, then GoA is not a bad option at all.
I've been BM pretty much exclusively since 70, and went survival for Brutallus tonight. I was really surprised by what the SV spec is capable of. With pretty much optimal group set up, I was able to keep up with the two BM hunters on DPS.
Wow Web Stats
My group was me, two BM hunters, a resto shaman, and a feral druid. I was using a 7/20/34 spec and I used a macro built off of
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
with extra lines to cast kill command and lightning breath.
Wow Web Stats
My group was me, two BM hunters, a resto shaman, and a feral druid. I was using a 7/20/34 spec and I used a macro built off of
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
with extra lines to cast kill command and lightning breath.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Uday
I've been BM pretty much exclusively since 70, and went survival for Brutallus tonight. I was really surprised by what the SV spec is capable of. With pretty much optimal group set up, I was able to keep up with the two BM hunters on DPS.
Wow Web Stats My group was me, two BM hunters, a resto shaman, and a feral druid. I was using a 7/20/34 spec and I used a macro built off of /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot with extra lines to cast kill command and lightning breath. |
Could you please tell us your latency while raiding and what input device you use (mouse, g15, etc)? This is the first example I have seen of a /cast/cast that has actually worked for a Survival hunter in a raid.
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
What makes /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot work is haste. The Steady Shot that causes the Auto Shot to be pushed back is so much shorter than the global cooldown that it allows the Auto Shot to cast before the GCD is ready. Without haste, you end up spamming Steady Shot most of the time.
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GCD minus "hidden autoshot cast time". Latency and server-side queuing needs to fit into that calculation too, because the difference is noticeable when in a raid (or even a zone change, as seen with Blasted Lands tests vs Dr Boom tests).
Last edited by Intermission : Today at 1:30 AM. Reason: added second quote to save doublepost
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Intermission
So for /cast/cast to work, the cast time of Steadyshot needs to be:
GCD minus "hidden autoshot cast time". Latency and server-side queuing needs to fit into that calculation too, because the difference is noticeable when in a raid (or even a zone change, as seen with Blasted Lands tests vs Dr Boom tests). |
Edit: It would also explain why the macro can morph from 2:1 to 3:2 to 1:1 depending on haste levels (the spot in the rotation where the auto can fall in the GCD-gap slides forward on the timeline as you get more haste).
Last edited by Groggan : Today at 1:59 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Still at Dr Boom, and just for kicks I threw in a Kill Command line. I cast around 10 to 15 steadies until an autoshot went off.
In regards to Uday's dps, yes it's huge! But in my opinion with same group makeup and gear (aside trinket/talent combo) with his group make up, two lusts and no scorpid stinging, a manual 1.1:5 could do quite a bit more damage.
It's just even more amazing that he did it using a macro.
25 times a second. This is my take on repeat speed:
edit: I just tried with 5 times per second and noticed the same amount of chaining (/cast !auto shot /cast steady shot)
editx2: I just tried with twice a second, and also simply clicking it at various speeds. It actually chain steadies far more when clicking slower (~3 a second) than it did when I clicked as fast as I could. I think it's definitely got to do with the server queuing the third and consecutive steadyshots after each other.
I've got tomorrow off work so I'll be doing a LOT of tests with different macros, repetitions, passive haste amounts, DST, and I'll even juggle my latency around a little bit by turning Lowerping on/off and regedit fix on/off. (to get 180, 260, and 450 latency).
If anyone has any idea why Blasted Lands doesn't like macros but Dr Boom does, please speak up. Pet attacking or not attacking makes no difference. Latency value is the exact same in both zones, so something to do with the Azeroth/Outlands servers.
In regards to Uday's dps, yes it's huge! But in my opinion with same group makeup and gear (aside trinket/talent combo) with his group make up, two lusts and no scorpid stinging, a manual 1.1:5 could do quite a bit more damage.
It's just even more amazing that he did it using a macro.
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Originally Posted by Osse
What kind of macro repeat speed are you using Intermission?
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edit: I just tried with 5 times per second and noticed the same amount of chaining (/cast !auto shot /cast steady shot)
editx2: I just tried with twice a second, and also simply clicking it at various speeds. It actually chain steadies far more when clicking slower (~3 a second) than it did when I clicked as fast as I could. I think it's definitely got to do with the server queuing the third and consecutive steadyshots after each other.
I've got tomorrow off work so I'll be doing a LOT of tests with different macros, repetitions, passive haste amounts, DST, and I'll even juggle my latency around a little bit by turning Lowerping on/off and regedit fix on/off. (to get 180, 260, and 450 latency).
If anyone has any idea why Blasted Lands doesn't like macros but Dr Boom does, please speak up. Pet attacking or not attacking makes no difference. Latency value is the exact same in both zones, so something to do with the Azeroth/Outlands servers.
Last edited by Intermission : 04/08/08 at 6:26 AM.
I just find KC to be bugged in a way that it's not worth it to use as SV. Probably works with 20-25ms but anything above that triggers trouble that starts to chain steady shots. /shrug
Addition to my last post, I didn't use KC line when testing in Blasted Lands.
Addition to my last post, I didn't use KC line when testing in Blasted Lands.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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DR.boom test... Yesterday nigth i were DR.boom testing, this was in a SV spec, but without any kind of haste (passive,DST/IAoTH). When i looked at the numbers while spammin my macro, was a pure 2:1 with rare ocations of 3:1.. this was the same results with both a 2.6, 2.7 and a 2.9 gun.
This is Of course logical since you will fire 2 steadies 2x1.5 sec = 3 sec. longer than any of the mentioned guns auto shot speed. thus they will have the same rotation at excact same speed, and thus favourizing a slow weapon.
I do still miss to do some testing with DST+IAoTH, which is the haste i have. i was wondering if this would still favourize the slow weapon, or the fast weapon would get enough benefit to do 1:1, and what is the case only 1 of them procs???
How much passive haste is needed to get into a BM 3:2 Rotation as a standard, instead of 2:1, and is it worth it?? for this you would of course need Sunwell Plaetou loot and the cloack from ZA. i know 105 haste has been mentioned for 3.00 bows.. but can it be that 105 haste is the best, is it simply the haste needed for making the steady fast enough compared to the global cooldown to make the auto shots go off like cake??
any thougths?
This is Of course logical since you will fire 2 steadies 2x1.5 sec = 3 sec. longer than any of the mentioned guns auto shot speed. thus they will have the same rotation at excact same speed, and thus favourizing a slow weapon.
I do still miss to do some testing with DST+IAoTH, which is the haste i have. i was wondering if this would still favourize the slow weapon, or the fast weapon would get enough benefit to do 1:1, and what is the case only 1 of them procs???
How much passive haste is needed to get into a BM 3:2 Rotation as a standard, instead of 2:1, and is it worth it?? for this you would of course need Sunwell Plaetou loot and the cloack from ZA. i know 105 haste has been mentioned for 3.00 bows.. but can it be that 105 haste is the best, is it simply the haste needed for making the steady fast enough compared to the global cooldown to make the auto shots go off like cake??
any thougths?
Last edited by Hentrenson : 04/08/08 at 7:22 AM.
Are Blizzard aware of this whole situation, really?
It is kind of ridiculous that our method of dps is so broken that we need to leverage bugs in the macro system and automated key clicking to keep up.
It is kind of ridiculous that our method of dps is so broken that we need to leverage bugs in the macro system and automated key clicking to keep up.
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Originally Posted by Groggan
Ahh, ok, that explains why the /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot macro doesn't seem to work cleanly all the time.
If you aren't hasted enough to get the Steady Shot cast time less than the GCD (which is 1.5sec, right?) then it's almost surely not going to work, and if you have other things (like Kill Command) filling in the extra space in the GCD they can bump the Auto Shot out as well. From that description the /cast Steady Shot macro should work under the hasted situations as long as you have Auto Shot already toggled on, has anyone ever tested to see if that would work? |
Uday's dps is further proof of what we've already seen, that a /cast macro can do great things with constant haste effects pushing it to 1:1 speeds. What's more noteworthy is that he used KC with no problems. In my experience KC only causes a problem when it is at the end of a macro.
/cast Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot works perfectly.
/cast Steady Shot
/cast Kill Command will hang sometimes.
It would feel pretty strange to just smash one button and get gear upgrades from every item that has higher iLvl without thinking if x amount of haste screws y builds dps because I'm using z weapon speed and w rotation with v amount of latency and x macro.
Did I forget something?
Did I forget something?
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Originally Posted by Osse
It would feel pretty strange to just smash one button and get gear upgrades from every item that has higher iLvl without thinking if x amount of haste screws y builds dps because I'm using z weapon speed and w rotation with v amount of latency and x macro.
Did I forget something? |
It is amusing to see months later people Boom testing the idea of a BM rotation on a Survival hunter. I told you all months ago it worked and nothing has changed now. When you see a Survival hunter knock out 2100 on Brutallus, yeah it works.
I still read the board and look at WWS logs and I've yet to see a 1:1.5 rotation hunter post anything but average Survival DPS. At this point those of you still fighting tooth and nail to prove that you should be running a 1:1.5 rotation or that awful hybrid spec picking up multi-shot talents are going to just continue to fall futher and further behind the 8-ball.
Instead of theory crafting how much armor pentration you can stack on your Survival hunter while running 1:1.5, check how much haste you can get out of Sunwell. It is something around 325 on gear rating. Thats as much as a DST proc boys and girls which on a 2.56 speed Survival hunter is 2.13 speed. Add in a DST if you have been fortunate enough to get one along with 2x Rapid Fire, Heroism and a couple of haste pots while running a 50% raid buffed crit + Master Tact. Time will tell.
Here is a pro tip for the Foam Finger Fans.
Macro1= /run local f = GetMouseFocus(): if f then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME: AddMessage(f:GetName()) end
Macro2= /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Put macro 2 anywhere on your hot bars. Scroll your mouse over where macro 2 is on your hotbars and then hit macro 1. Write down what pops up in your chat box.
Macro3= #showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] PLACE NAME OF BUTTON YOU WROTE DOWN HERE
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Then get rid of macro 1 and use macro 3 endlessly on your G11 or G15. Credit goes to the BM hunters on that one.
The walls of text are enjoyable reads but they don't change that the guys who figured out how to properly utilize a BM shot rotation while playing a Survival hunter are still the only guys competing with BM hunter DPS. You can beat the dead horse only so long before there is nothing left to hit with the bat. Accept it, use it, improve it so instead of competing with BM hunters we can beat the BM hunters.
Unforunately though, in 5-6 months I think the guy who will be blowing up the meters is going to be the one who got his haste set and decided to switch over to a 20/41/0 build.
I still read the board and look at WWS logs and I've yet to see a 1:1.5 rotation hunter post anything but average Survival DPS. At this point those of you still fighting tooth and nail to prove that you should be running a 1:1.5 rotation or that awful hybrid spec picking up multi-shot talents are going to just continue to fall futher and further behind the 8-ball.
Instead of theory crafting how much armor pentration you can stack on your Survival hunter while running 1:1.5, check how much haste you can get out of Sunwell. It is something around 325 on gear rating. Thats as much as a DST proc boys and girls which on a 2.56 speed Survival hunter is 2.13 speed. Add in a DST if you have been fortunate enough to get one along with 2x Rapid Fire, Heroism and a couple of haste pots while running a 50% raid buffed crit + Master Tact. Time will tell.
Here is a pro tip for the Foam Finger Fans.
Macro1= /run local f = GetMouseFocus(): if f then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME: AddMessage(f:GetName()) end
Macro2= /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Put macro 2 anywhere on your hot bars. Scroll your mouse over where macro 2 is on your hotbars and then hit macro 1. Write down what pops up in your chat box.
Macro3= #showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] PLACE NAME OF BUTTON YOU WROTE DOWN HERE
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Then get rid of macro 1 and use macro 3 endlessly on your G11 or G15. Credit goes to the BM hunters on that one.
The walls of text are enjoyable reads but they don't change that the guys who figured out how to properly utilize a BM shot rotation while playing a Survival hunter are still the only guys competing with BM hunter DPS. You can beat the dead horse only so long before there is nothing left to hit with the bat. Accept it, use it, improve it so instead of competing with BM hunters we can beat the BM hunters.
Unforunately though, in 5-6 months I think the guy who will be blowing up the meters is going to be the one who got his haste set and decided to switch over to a 20/41/0 build.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
In regards to Uday's dps, yes it's huge! But in my opinion with same group makeup and gear (aside trinket/talent combo) with his group make up, two lusts and no scorpid stinging, a manual 1.1:5 could do quite a bit more damage. It's just even more amazing that he did it using a macro. |
Uday aka Lesue did 2100
Elitist Jerks very own Gonktarget did 1826
Rylai did 1728
Arkat did 1860
Zhu did 1688
Vorian did 1837
Blyy did 1499
Volchenok did 1815
Ranira did 1810
Elonanda did 1467
So I would suggest its not a case of if a manual 1:1:5 weaver could get close. I don't think anyone could get close at this moment in time.
Amazing considering Brutallus is a high armour Boss
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Originally Posted by Uday
I've been BM pretty much exclusively since 70, and went survival for Brutallus tonight. I was really surprised by what the SV spec is capable of. With pretty much optimal group set up, I was able to keep up with the two BM hunters on DPS.
Wow Web Stats My group was me, two BM hunters, a resto shaman, and a feral druid. I was using a 7/20/34 spec and I used a macro built off of /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot with extra lines to cast kill command and lightning breath. |
Is the DPS impressive? Yes it is. But I pulled off around 1700 DPS last week with a 1:1.5 rotation (changed to 3:2/1:1 w/ Haste) in a group with 3 Mages, myself and a Shadow priest. For some reason, I have a feeling if I had gotten 2 Heroisms, +6% DPS and +5% crit as well as Drums up for most of the fight...my DPS would have been a little Higher.
I think it is also important to note that Uday is wearing around 70 passive Haste (Polearm and Neck), which is the "sweet spot" many of us have talked about in this thread. Its like having Drums up all the time. The problem with the haste is that if you look at the itemization for it, it is a HUGE iLvL eater for stats. You will give up sockets, agility, int, stam for around 20-30 haste, which is a pretty minimal amount. The questions, in regards to adding massive amount of haste to your set is, is it worth it? Your personal DPS will increase, but how much total agility are you loosing out on by stacking Haste? Less agility = less EW worth. Its a fine balance for sure, and I dont think anyone has really run those numbers yet. The haste gear I have been looking at has been pieces that dont cause us to loose a good chunk of Agility (like the neck/ring/polearm/cape).
Now then, having said all that, im not knocking the 2:1 rotation. Im using it right now (and have been for the past week), and will post my results with it tonight after Brut. I will assume I will be in the same type of mage-tastic group, so it should be easy to compare results.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
Macro1= /run local f = GetMouseFocus(): if f then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME: AddMessage(f:GetName()) end
Macro2= /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot Put macro 2 anywhere on your hot bars. Scroll your mouse over where macro 2 is on your hotbars and then hit macro 1. Write down what pops up in your chat box. Macro3= #showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] PLACE NAME OF BUTTON YOU WROTE DOWN HERE /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() Then get rid of macro 1 and use macro 3 endlessly on your G11 or G15. Credit goes to the BM hunters on that one. |
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
You can stick the old /cast !Auto Shot on there at the top if you want to make sure the auto happens first.
For a hunter that always gets a great group with a sha popping heroism and 3 people banging on drums, yes haste is the way to go. You'll be doing a 1:1 rotation most of the time anyway, and haste gives the most improvement for that rotation. For the average joe hunter like me things are different. I'm not saying a 1:1.5 is better for everyone, but I know it is better for me.
Most of us aren't concerned with how 3000 dps can be achieved with 3 Heroisms, 4 drums, and a solar eclipse, we want to do the best we can with the situation we've got. The highest damage rotation is going to be the one that fires the most shots, and I'm never going to average more than 1 shot per second because I don't have access to a pile of haste effects, so excuse me while I collect some ArP gear.
I agree that these MS specs are people shooting themselves in the foot. There are two specs a survival hunter should consider, 28/33 and 20/41. If you're not willing to drop TotH for RWS, don't go past Mortal Shots.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
It is amusing to see months later people Boom testing the idea of a BM rotation on a Survival hunter. I told you all months ago it worked and nothing has changed now. When you see a Survival hunter knock out 2100 on Brutallus, yeah it works.
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I find it "amusing" that you belittle the majority of us that are not in your ideal situation.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
The click macro is better and it is more consistant under various haste conditions. However, I would be happy to look at your WWS using the macro you posted so that I can see what kind of results you are getting.
I sense a little bit of jealously there against those of us who are able to get a feral and shaman in our raid groups. Most of you guys have had BT/Hyjal on farm for awhile now and I continue to see you posting 'average' Survival DPS, yet you make claims if you had the types of groups myself or Uday have you could infact do even better.
So why is that in the 6-7 months most guilds have been farming BT and Hyjal you were not able to ask your raid leader to give you an optimal group so that you could prove your theories. If you had this optimal group and what you say is true then you would most likely dominate your guilds DPS charts which would allow you to continue getting these optimal groups.
If you aren't getting haste drums then whose problem really is that?
I posted 2k+ DPS results on various BT/Hyjal fights back in January and months later after more gear has been obtained I still don't see the stagnant 1:1.5 rotation coming close. Is the execuse for that going to be you were so bored farming Hyjal/BT for 6 months you decides to stop potting up and just went afk during the fights? Give me a break.
We are posting real results of using this rotation. The other 95% of you are just posting blabble and excuses as to why you can't be as successful but yet have the mind to say you'd actually do it better under those conditions. I only dedicate so much time to the 'if I had' type of people and I've used it all up. Stop talking and do it.
Make no mistake that this type of rotation is not ideal for everyone if you do not have the gear/group to do it. My comments are in noway directed towards you. I direct my comments towards the people who come from top world guilds and are trying to justify to the WoW community that an inferior rotation and spec is the best means of DPS for a Survival hunter under any condition.
People whose gear cannot support this rotation or groups could run either rotation and it wouldn't much matter. However, it is my opinion if you are looking to play a Survival hunter at the highest level, you should ultimately strive to put your character in a position to be able to run a rotation such as UDay and myself.
I sense a little bit of jealously there against those of us who are able to get a feral and shaman in our raid groups. Most of you guys have had BT/Hyjal on farm for awhile now and I continue to see you posting 'average' Survival DPS, yet you make claims if you had the types of groups myself or Uday have you could infact do even better.
So why is that in the 6-7 months most guilds have been farming BT and Hyjal you were not able to ask your raid leader to give you an optimal group so that you could prove your theories. If you had this optimal group and what you say is true then you would most likely dominate your guilds DPS charts which would allow you to continue getting these optimal groups.
If you aren't getting haste drums then whose problem really is that?
I posted 2k+ DPS results on various BT/Hyjal fights back in January and months later after more gear has been obtained I still don't see the stagnant 1:1.5 rotation coming close. Is the execuse for that going to be you were so bored farming Hyjal/BT for 6 months you decides to stop potting up and just went afk during the fights? Give me a break.
We are posting real results of using this rotation. The other 95% of you are just posting blabble and excuses as to why you can't be as successful but yet have the mind to say you'd actually do it better under those conditions. I only dedicate so much time to the 'if I had' type of people and I've used it all up. Stop talking and do it.
Make no mistake that this type of rotation is not ideal for everyone if you do not have the gear/group to do it. My comments are in noway directed towards you. I direct my comments towards the people who come from top world guilds and are trying to justify to the WoW community that an inferior rotation and spec is the best means of DPS for a Survival hunter under any condition.
People whose gear cannot support this rotation or groups could run either rotation and it wouldn't much matter. However, it is my opinion if you are looking to play a Survival hunter at the highest level, you should ultimately strive to put your character in a position to be able to run a rotation such as UDay and myself.
Last edited by Kurkis : 04/08/08 at 1:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Enova
You might want to give it a try with a different shot rotation, as well... From what I can tell, yours seems kind of erratic at the moment. Try aiming for a 1:1.5; by the looks of it you were still trying to use your old BM rotation, and you just remembered to add in arcanes and specials at times.
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Originally Posted by Enova
Bristleblitz will always be superior to the S3 bow; Legionkiller, I'm not so sure about it now. I just noticed it's got a slightly lower item level (and as such, item damage) than the s3 bow. Couple that with the faster speed, and yeah.
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We're running BT tomorrow, I'll give the 0/28/33 spec a whirl based on the advice I've receieved. Hopefully Naj will drop the Halberd this week...
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
I sense a little bit of jealously there against those of us who are able to get a feral and shaman in our raid groups. Most of you guys have had BT/Hyjal on farm for awhile now and I continue to see you posting 'average' Survival DPS, yet you make claims if you had the types of groups myself or Uday have you could infact do even better.
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| So why is that in the 6-7 months most guilds have been farming BT and Hyjal you were not able to ask your raid leader to give you an optimal group so that you could prove your theories. If you had this optimal group and what you say is true then you would most likely dominate your guilds DPS charts which would allow you to continue getting these optimal groups. |
Looking at the Top 5 Brut DPS Kills, these are the numbers in the "Top 5 DPS" classes:
BM Hunter - 4
Rogue - 8
Warlock - 11
Mage - 2
So, if you were wanting to increase DPS on Brut, which class do you really think you should be stacking with +DPS classes?
| If you aren't getting haste drums then whose problem really is that? |
| We are posting real results of using this rotation. The other 95% of you are just posting blabble and excuses as to why you can't be as successful but yet have the mind to say you'd actually do it better under those conditions. I only dedicate so much time to the 'if I had' type of people and I've used it all up. Stop talking and do it. |
And, this, by the way, seems pretty average:
WWS Loading...
Not trying to knock you, but for someone whos throwing the punches, stating how much better they are because of the shot rotation they have been perfecting for 9 months, as well as the group make up they get, since it is the most important thing for a Survival Hunter...1700 DPS seems about average. In fact, it seems very close to the same DPS I got from Brut doing a 1:1.5 rotation in a mage group last week. I see youre using an owl (o.O), so I can understand that "excuse", but other than that, whats the difference?
Last edited by Sore82 : 04/08/08 at 1:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
If you aren't getting haste drums then whose problem really is that?
We are posting real results of using this rotation. The other 95% of you are just posting blabble and excuses as to why you can't be as successful but yet have the mind to say you'd actually do it better under those conditions. I only dedicate so much time to the 'if I had' type of people and I've used it all up. Stop talking and do it. |
Yes, I covet your results. But they're just not feasible for the majority of us as they require specific support we don't have access to.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
The DPS was average, I won't tell you it wasn't. I ran Scorpid, took no haste pots and I received no heroism. My group was Main tank, Feral Tank, Resto Shaman, Myself and a Healing Druid. The Shaman was swapped into the melee group for heroism.
This is why the /cast rotation is better and hopefully then you will understand what makes the rotation better then 1:1.5 since you apparently don't.
Steady Shot scales better with AP and speed better then arcane and multi. You also get a trinket from BT as well as a set bonus that are all focused off of using Steady Shot. Your gear is built to use Steady Shot. If you are running a _real_ 1:1.5 rotation you will see many arguments in this very forum that say you should not use ANY haste items because it messes up the rotation. If you don't believe that you can filter through these pages and read it for yourself and argue with those posters if you do not agree.
The reason they say not to use the hastes is because it forces you to lose shots in one form or another making the idea of a 1:1.5 moot. Also because maybe people such as yourself spec deeper into the MM tree then 20 points, if you are not using multi-shot in your rotation then you are essentially wasting talent points.
You are simply bound by cooldowns when you use a proper 1:1.5 rotation. You've already dictated which shots you will fire and when you will be firing them. Your castsequence macro also helps to lock you into this rotation. You are saying that you are going to get a bulk of your damage from Arcane and Multi-Shots. You rely on these shots and are forced to live off cooldowns.
The BM style rotation gets rid of these restrictions and the /cast macro self adjusts to your hasted situation. This is why it is so good.
And to just simply stop arguing about who gets better groups and who doesn't........ If you are receiving Heroism, DST procs, Rapid Fire, Haste Pots, Drums and also Quick Shots your attack speed changes so much (I know this because I did it w/ a 1:1.5 rotation which made my change to what I use now) it is very difficult if not impossible to adjust your rotation from 1:1.5 to 1:1. If you are running a strick 1:1.5 rotation and quick shots proc in this case even then it does not justify going from your 1:1.5 rotation down to a 1:1 rotation. You'd actually lose DPS.
The self adjusting steady shot macro allows you to benefit from ANY type of hasted state. You could have every single haste buff going at once to just having drums up and everything in between and the Steady Shot rotation will benefit. This means more attacks.... More attacks with Surv hunters running 50% crit means alot more DPS. Do you understand this?
So yes, on Brutallus I got DST haste and I self drummed a couple of times, kept scorpid up and used an owl that did a little less DPS and I basically produced the same results as a 1:1.5 hunter is going to produce. This justifies that the BM rotation is just as good as a 1:1.5 rotation with a guy spec'd past 20 in the MM tree.
You've basically said it yourself my DPS was the same as the next guy. The difference is when I am in a position on Brutallus to run at my optimal DPS and I start popping haste pots and getting heroisms my DPS is going to sky rocket like you see in Uday's WWS. This is why I have been able to produce big numbers on alot of the BT/Hyjal fights.
You running the 1:1.5 rotation will in noway have the same results as me for the reasons I've already stated in this post. It just can't happen. You can change your rotation or try to do it like I did when I was running 1:1.5 or you can just accept the fact that running BM the whole way in the end is better.
I hope I was able to explain and help you understand really why this rotation will out shine the stagnant 1:1.5 rotation.
Think about it - You ran 1750 on Brutallus and are spec'd for extra Multi Damage. I run 1713 spec'd specifically for a speed rotation and I barely got the speed required to optimize the rotation. That should tell you something. Our raid buffs were virtually the same yeah? You were doing scorpid, I was doing scorpid yeah?
Now think about Gonktarget. Go look at his WWS and his buffs. He runs the 1:1.5 rotation. He did 1850 DPS in what most of you would consider a great group. He also used an Owl. He ran 137 DPS better then I did. Now look at Uday who pretty much had the samething as Gonktarget did with the exception of a 2nd heroism. He runs 2100 DPS, 250 more then Gonktarget.
You can continue to theorycraft and test until the cows come home it isn't going to change the patterns that are being seen and pointing out my 1713 DPS on Brutallus pretty much reinforces what I've been saying this entire time.
This is why the /cast rotation is better and hopefully then you will understand what makes the rotation better then 1:1.5 since you apparently don't.
Steady Shot scales better with AP and speed better then arcane and multi. You also get a trinket from BT as well as a set bonus that are all focused off of using Steady Shot. Your gear is built to use Steady Shot. If you are running a _real_ 1:1.5 rotation you will see many arguments in this very forum that say you should not use ANY haste items because it messes up the rotation. If you don't believe that you can filter through these pages and read it for yourself and argue with those posters if you do not agree.
The reason they say not to use the hastes is because it forces you to lose shots in one form or another making the idea of a 1:1.5 moot. Also because maybe people such as yourself spec deeper into the MM tree then 20 points, if you are not using multi-shot in your rotation then you are essentially wasting talent points.
You are simply bound by cooldowns when you use a proper 1:1.5 rotation. You've already dictated which shots you will fire and when you will be firing them. Your castsequence macro also helps to lock you into this rotation. You are saying that you are going to get a bulk of your damage from Arcane and Multi-Shots. You rely on these shots and are forced to live off cooldowns.
The BM style rotation gets rid of these restrictions and the /cast macro self adjusts to your hasted situation. This is why it is so good.
And to just simply stop arguing about who gets better groups and who doesn't........ If you are receiving Heroism, DST procs, Rapid Fire, Haste Pots, Drums and also Quick Shots your attack speed changes so much (I know this because I did it w/ a 1:1.5 rotation which made my change to what I use now) it is very difficult if not impossible to adjust your rotation from 1:1.5 to 1:1. If you are running a strick 1:1.5 rotation and quick shots proc in this case even then it does not justify going from your 1:1.5 rotation down to a 1:1 rotation. You'd actually lose DPS.
The self adjusting steady shot macro allows you to benefit from ANY type of hasted state. You could have every single haste buff going at once to just having drums up and everything in between and the Steady Shot rotation will benefit. This means more attacks.... More attacks with Surv hunters running 50% crit means alot more DPS. Do you understand this?
So yes, on Brutallus I got DST haste and I self drummed a couple of times, kept scorpid up and used an owl that did a little less DPS and I basically produced the same results as a 1:1.5 hunter is going to produce. This justifies that the BM rotation is just as good as a 1:1.5 rotation with a guy spec'd past 20 in the MM tree.
You've basically said it yourself my DPS was the same as the next guy. The difference is when I am in a position on Brutallus to run at my optimal DPS and I start popping haste pots and getting heroisms my DPS is going to sky rocket like you see in Uday's WWS. This is why I have been able to produce big numbers on alot of the BT/Hyjal fights.
You running the 1:1.5 rotation will in noway have the same results as me for the reasons I've already stated in this post. It just can't happen. You can change your rotation or try to do it like I did when I was running 1:1.5 or you can just accept the fact that running BM the whole way in the end is better.
I hope I was able to explain and help you understand really why this rotation will out shine the stagnant 1:1.5 rotation.
Think about it - You ran 1750 on Brutallus and are spec'd for extra Multi Damage. I run 1713 spec'd specifically for a speed rotation and I barely got the speed required to optimize the rotation. That should tell you something. Our raid buffs were virtually the same yeah? You were doing scorpid, I was doing scorpid yeah?
Now think about Gonktarget. Go look at his WWS and his buffs. He runs the 1:1.5 rotation. He did 1850 DPS in what most of you would consider a great group. He also used an Owl. He ran 137 DPS better then I did. Now look at Uday who pretty much had the samething as Gonktarget did with the exception of a 2nd heroism. He runs 2100 DPS, 250 more then Gonktarget.
You can continue to theorycraft and test until the cows come home it isn't going to change the patterns that are being seen and pointing out my 1713 DPS on Brutallus pretty much reinforces what I've been saying this entire time.
Last edited by Kurkis : 04/08/08 at 2:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
That is average you are right. I didn't get a Heroism that fight, took fel mana pots and was on Scorpid Sting duty and used an owl. Definately average. Those are the worst conditions I could possible expect to be in during a raid and still that rotation actually performed the same as everyone else playing a Survival.... That is the point.
If you give that rotation buffs and haste it will excel while the 1:1.5 will remain stagnant. |
| I did look at your logs Sore and not to 'knock you' but if either one of those logs are considered to be acceptable by yourself then I am not sure what to tell you. |
| /run local f = GetMouseFocus(): if f then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME: AddMessage(f:GetName()) end |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
I sense a little bit of jealously there against those of us who are able to get a feral and shaman in our raid groups. Most of you guys have had BT/Hyjal on farm for awhile now and I continue to see you posting 'average' Survival DPS, yet you make claims if you had the types of groups myself or Uday have you could infact do even better.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
Make no mistake that this type of rotation is not ideal for everyone if you do not have the gear/group to do it. My comments are in noway directed towards you. I direct my comments towards the people who come from top world guilds and are trying to justify to the WoW community that an inferior rotation and spec is the best means of DPS for a Survival hunter under any condition.
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Nobody is saying 1:1.5 is the ultimate rotation. We're simply saying it is the best for some people. You are seeing insults where there are none, and acting belligerent for no good reason.
Edit: Except for those silly macros you posted. I don't know why anyone would try to make something so complex out of something so simple.
Last edited by volant : 04/08/08 at 2:27 PM.
Just read my edited post above yours Sore. If you still don't get it I don't know what to tell you.
I use Bongos for my bars and that Macro 1 I posted works with it. If you are using different bar mods it may not work. If you look in the BM Bible thread there is a post that allows you to set-up that style of a macro no matter what bar mod you use.
I use Bongos for my bars and that Macro 1 I posted works with it. If you are using different bar mods it may not work. If you look in the BM Bible thread there is a post that allows you to set-up that style of a macro no matter what bar mod you use.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I understand the usefulness of the 2:1 rotation..which is why I am trying it out now. The problem comes into play when all those +haste modifiers you use to get your DPS so high, are not available to everyone. I dont have a DST (despite doing Gruul just about every week), I am not placed in a Shaman group often enough that I can rely on getting a Heroism, I also am rarely in a group with people who drop Drums at a rate which keeps them up through the whole fight. I am also not wearing any +haste gear because none has become available to me yet. So, do I understand the value of +Haste? Yes, I do...but at the same time, to utilize it to its "max" potential, you have to really get EVERYTHING - Drums, Haste Pots, haste gear, Heroism...all of which Uday had. I can not reasonably reproduce that same set up right now, so its not an option for me.
Using a 1:1.5 rotation in itself can be a loss of DPS, BUT, if you know when you are going to get Hasted, then being able to swap to a 3:2/1:1 rotation is not difficult. This is ideal for the people who do not get Drums, or have 5/5 iAotH or a DST...those things can be random and mess up the 1.5:1 rotation and make it hard to switch. But, if swap rotations when you use Rapid Fire, or get a Heroism or pop a Haste pot...it is controlled Haste, and makes it easy to swap rotations.
The biggest problem with 2:1, that not many people seem to understand, is that despite it being so good, it does not work for everyone. Depending on your latency and computer and if the moon is full or not, the macro will sometimes just get stuck chaining Steady Shot. BM's have experienced this issue, and even that macro you posted is not a guarantee that it will work for everyone (as someone posted in this same thread that it didnt work for them). I even posted that just being in Blasted Lands (as opposed to Netherstorm) caused my 2:1 to chain more. Theres not much that I can do about that. While going though BT this week, I was watching my casting bar the whole time to see when it would chain, and if it did, I had to release the macro and wait for Auto to start casting again...something you dont ever have to do with a 1.5:1.
I think its great when I see a Survival Hunter come up with such high numbers...I really do. We are often seen as the "outcasted" Hunter who doesnt need to be in a DPS group since our Raid Buff works on everyone regardless of what group we are in. But at the same time, the people who come up with these high numbers are in ideal situations. To buff your DPS, they are essentially taking away DPS from someone like a Warlock/Rogue who would benefit more from things like +5% Crit/+3% DPS or even Heroism. Yes, they increase our personal DPS...but are more useful on other people. I love getting a Heroism, but the fact of the matter is, at least for my guild, Warlocks/Rogues rule the DPS charts...so I would much rather they get it than me. But maybe thats just me. Let me put it into a little more of a perspective:
Say there are 3 DPS classes. Each one is a full DPS class, but there max potential is different. Max potential = what there DPS is under normal, non-buffed circumstances. So, this is how they look:
Class 1 = 2000 DPS
Class 2 = 1800 DPS
Class 3 = 1500 DPS
Now then, you have an option to give one of these classes a buff that will increase there DPS output by 3%. WHich one do you give it to? Some might say "Give it to the lowest DPS, because they need the boost". Well, you would be wrong. Since the buff is % based, you would want to give it to whoever will do the max potential DPS with is. A 3% increase in DPS to Class 3 is 45, making it 1545 total. Where as a 3% increase to Class 1 is 60, making is 2060. See the difference between 45 and 60?
So for things like Heroism - instead of giving it to 3 or 4 different groups, what you should be doing is chaining it through your highest DPS classes by swapping Shamans in/out throughout the fight. Brut does not "enrage" at a certain %, he is timer based...so there is no reason to wait to give it to Rogues or Warlocks until sub 20%. If you look at the top WWS DPS, which is Might - Turalyon (Wow Web Stats), that is exactly what they did. The Rogues/Warlocks/Mage each got 2 Heroisms, The BM Hunters got 1 and the Survival Hunter got 0. Thats how you maximize your DPS.
Using a 1:1.5 rotation in itself can be a loss of DPS, BUT, if you know when you are going to get Hasted, then being able to swap to a 3:2/1:1 rotation is not difficult. This is ideal for the people who do not get Drums, or have 5/5 iAotH or a DST...those things can be random and mess up the 1.5:1 rotation and make it hard to switch. But, if swap rotations when you use Rapid Fire, or get a Heroism or pop a Haste pot...it is controlled Haste, and makes it easy to swap rotations.
The biggest problem with 2:1, that not many people seem to understand, is that despite it being so good, it does not work for everyone. Depending on your latency and computer and if the moon is full or not, the macro will sometimes just get stuck chaining Steady Shot. BM's have experienced this issue, and even that macro you posted is not a guarantee that it will work for everyone (as someone posted in this same thread that it didnt work for them). I even posted that just being in Blasted Lands (as opposed to Netherstorm) caused my 2:1 to chain more. Theres not much that I can do about that. While going though BT this week, I was watching my casting bar the whole time to see when it would chain, and if it did, I had to release the macro and wait for Auto to start casting again...something you dont ever have to do with a 1.5:1.
I think its great when I see a Survival Hunter come up with such high numbers...I really do. We are often seen as the "outcasted" Hunter who doesnt need to be in a DPS group since our Raid Buff works on everyone regardless of what group we are in. But at the same time, the people who come up with these high numbers are in ideal situations. To buff your DPS, they are essentially taking away DPS from someone like a Warlock/Rogue who would benefit more from things like +5% Crit/+3% DPS or even Heroism. Yes, they increase our personal DPS...but are more useful on other people. I love getting a Heroism, but the fact of the matter is, at least for my guild, Warlocks/Rogues rule the DPS charts...so I would much rather they get it than me. But maybe thats just me. Let me put it into a little more of a perspective:
Say there are 3 DPS classes. Each one is a full DPS class, but there max potential is different. Max potential = what there DPS is under normal, non-buffed circumstances. So, this is how they look:
Class 1 = 2000 DPS
Class 2 = 1800 DPS
Class 3 = 1500 DPS
Now then, you have an option to give one of these classes a buff that will increase there DPS output by 3%. WHich one do you give it to? Some might say "Give it to the lowest DPS, because they need the boost". Well, you would be wrong. Since the buff is % based, you would want to give it to whoever will do the max potential DPS with is. A 3% increase in DPS to Class 3 is 45, making it 1545 total. Where as a 3% increase to Class 1 is 60, making is 2060. See the difference between 45 and 60?
So for things like Heroism - instead of giving it to 3 or 4 different groups, what you should be doing is chaining it through your highest DPS classes by swapping Shamans in/out throughout the fight. Brut does not "enrage" at a certain %, he is timer based...so there is no reason to wait to give it to Rogues or Warlocks until sub 20%. If you look at the top WWS DPS, which is Might - Turalyon (Wow Web Stats), that is exactly what they did. The Rogues/Warlocks/Mage each got 2 Heroisms, The BM Hunters got 1 and the Survival Hunter got 0. Thats how you maximize your DPS.
Last edited by Sore82 : 04/08/08 at 5:15 PM.
Seems like some people are getting a bit flustered about this...
I think we need to understand the point that Kurkis is making, that being, from a theorycrafted point of view, BM rotations outperform 1.5:1 rotations.
The unusual thing is that Kurkis has been able to put his theorycrafting into practice thanks to his group setup (leatherworkers, heroisms, Readiness for 2x Rapid Fire).
As for me, I'm further back progression-wise and I get a raw-deal with group setup so I'm rather stuck with the 1.5:1. I'm lucky to get a feral druid and GoA comes out once in a blue moon with our guild. More shamans recruited lately so maybe I'll get my GoA eventually.
Anyway, I digress, my point is
Theory says 3:2 / 1:1...
Practice for Kurkis says 3:2 / 1:1
Practice for most of us says 1.5:1
It's not the best but it's the best I can do with what I've got which is, in the end, all I can do.
Kurkis does make a good point though regarding Sunwell & haste gear, that being that we will be able to attain passive haste easily and might be able to come to his rotation style with a different approach to reaching those rotations (passive instead of transient haste). It does beg the question "how much will that haste gear gimp us" but I'll leave that debate to someone else.
I think we need to understand the point that Kurkis is making, that being, from a theorycrafted point of view, BM rotations outperform 1.5:1 rotations.
The unusual thing is that Kurkis has been able to put his theorycrafting into practice thanks to his group setup (leatherworkers, heroisms, Readiness for 2x Rapid Fire).
As for me, I'm further back progression-wise and I get a raw-deal with group setup so I'm rather stuck with the 1.5:1. I'm lucky to get a feral druid and GoA comes out once in a blue moon with our guild. More shamans recruited lately so maybe I'll get my GoA eventually.
Anyway, I digress, my point is
Theory says 3:2 / 1:1...
Practice for Kurkis says 3:2 / 1:1
Practice for most of us says 1.5:1
It's not the best but it's the best I can do with what I've got which is, in the end, all I can do.
Kurkis does make a good point though regarding Sunwell & haste gear, that being that we will be able to attain passive haste easily and might be able to come to his rotation style with a different approach to reaching those rotations (passive instead of transient haste). It does beg the question "how much will that haste gear gimp us" but I'll leave that debate to someone else.
I am going to sound stupid and probably catch another infraction. Since this is my third, I may even be banned, but oh well, atleast keep the post here.
I know you people (EJ posters in general) don't like to specifically isolate your references, however saying something like 'check the BM thread, the answer is there' is ...sparce to say the least. Now I am sure that had I read the last 10 pages of both threads in one sitting I'd know exactly what you are talking about. But for not only setting up a good SV macro (actually BM macro as I HAVE read the last three pages in one sitting) during RoS P2, but other references, would it kill for a little specifying?
More than that, let me make sure I have what you are saying clear;
-You have passive haste of around 80 (T/F?).
-You regularly have the haste (not talking about crit/agi/ap yet) benifits of bloodlust (lol heroism, i was confused for a minute until I saw you guys are alliance), and drums of battle, with DST/IAOTH/Haste Potions thrown in (T/F?).
-You utilize a single macro that conforms with no alteration no matter what your current shot speed is to either a 3:2 or 1:1 form (T/F?).
-Taking away your spike haste (DST/IAOTH?/Potions?) is responsible for dropping about 380DPS(T/F?)
Before I actually get into trying to deconstruct these lastfew pages for yet another attempt at being SV for Sunwell, I just want to make sure that I am understanding what I have read correctly.
I know you people (EJ posters in general) don't like to specifically isolate your references, however saying something like 'check the BM thread, the answer is there' is ...sparce to say the least. Now I am sure that had I read the last 10 pages of both threads in one sitting I'd know exactly what you are talking about. But for not only setting up a good SV macro (actually BM macro as I HAVE read the last three pages in one sitting) during RoS P2, but other references, would it kill for a little specifying?
More than that, let me make sure I have what you are saying clear;
-You have passive haste of around 80 (T/F?).
-You regularly have the haste (not talking about crit/agi/ap yet) benifits of bloodlust (lol heroism, i was confused for a minute until I saw you guys are alliance), and drums of battle, with DST/IAOTH/Haste Potions thrown in (T/F?).
-You utilize a single macro that conforms with no alteration no matter what your current shot speed is to either a 3:2 or 1:1 form (T/F?).
-Taking away your spike haste (DST/IAOTH?/Potions?) is responsible for dropping about 380DPS(T/F?)
Before I actually get into trying to deconstruct these lastfew pages for yet another attempt at being SV for Sunwell, I just want to make sure that I am understanding what I have read correctly.
I am currently trying this since I am unhappy with my damage and Kurkis/Uday's reports are really promising. The usual 1:1.5 rotation is really limited and does not benefit from haste much where steady shot spam rotation is really great with haste. I can try to answer you, but keep in mind I am still new to this myself (and undergeared compared to Kurkis/Uday)
- The 80 haste rating is from Drums of Battle rotation. It's not likely you'd get it on trash (unless your guild is REALLY SERIOUS), but it's great on bosses. Four person with 350 Leatherworking required for it to be up all the time (30 sec buff, 2 minutes cooldown).
- The longer you are hasted the better. A shaman bloodlust/heroism is a big deal since it's a long haste.
- Any /cast macros are auto-ajusting to haste. Some get stuck so be careful.
- I can't really answer this one since I'm not experienced enough. A steady shot spam rotation (2:1->3:2->1:1) greatly benefits from haste, your aim should be to get hasted as much as possible.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
-You have passive haste of around 80 (T/F?).
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
-You regularly have the haste (not talking about crit/agi/ap yet) benifits of bloodlust (lol heroism, i was confused for a minute until I saw you guys are alliance), and drums of battle, with DST/IAOTH/Haste Potions thrown in (T/F?).
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
-You utilize a single macro that conforms with no alteration no matter what your current shot speed is to either a 3:2 or 1:1 form (T/F?).
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
-Taking away your spike haste (DST/IAOTH?/Potions?) is responsible for dropping about 380DPS(T/F?)
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Originally Posted by Mahuk
- The 80 haste rating is from Drums of Battle rotation. It's not likely you'd get it on trash (unless your guild is REALLY SERIOUS), but it's great on bosses. Four person with 350 Leatherworking required for it to be up all the time (30 sec buff, 2 minutes cooldown).
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I still get some steady chains, but i've tested it a few times and the damage done by KC is greater than the damage i lose form an occasional missed auto. I play on a mac, so the G15 is not an option, so i bind it to 6 keys, and roll three fingers from each hand over them. The actual macro is a two-part macro.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and
#showtooltip Kill Command
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Steady still chains sometimes, but for some reason it seems to chain less when KC is on another button being pushed by the spammed macro.
Sorry for the delayed response, i've been out with my family today and got home just in time for raiding. I'll check back and try to answer the questions more thoroughly after tonight's raid in a few hours.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and
#showtooltip Kill Command
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Steady still chains sometimes, but for some reason it seems to chain less when KC is on another button being pushed by the spammed macro.
Sorry for the delayed response, i've been out with my family today and got home just in time for raiding. I'll check back and try to answer the questions more thoroughly after tonight's raid in a few hours.
i'm just curious as to what would be the best shot rotation for a 0/20/41 specced hunter. I've been trying different ones throughout my raiding experience, yet i have yet to find the 'best one' i was curious as to what would be the best way to up my DPS.
My armory for the best upgrades, i know my bow sucks. The World of Warcraft ArmoryI am accecting all criticism
My armory for the best upgrades, i know my bow sucks. The World of Warcraft ArmoryI am accecting all criticism
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Wll hmmz to put some pespective on these numbers, the World Top Ten DPS Raids against Brutallus contained these Survival Hunters. The numbers returned by Uday are phenomenal.
Uday aka Lesue did 2100 Elitist Jerks very own Gonktarget did 1826 Rylai did 1728 Arkat did 1860 Zhu did 1688 Vorian did 1837 Blyy did 1499 Volchenok did 1815 Ranira did 1810 Elonanda did 1467 So I would suggest its not a case of if a manual 1:1:5 weaver could get close. I don't think anyone could get close at this moment in time. Amazing considering Brutallus is a high armour Boss |
I'm mainly interested in your latency, Uday, if you could share that with us please. I've proved that more haste does not reduce steady chaining (for me anyway) so perhaps there is a latency threshold where the server side queue window on the third steadyshot is smaller than the autoshot "cast time". edit: One more thing please mate, when your DST procs does your macro change to a 1:1 or a 3:2? Mine stays at 2:1 (or 3:1-4:1, resulting in the autoshot arriving ~2-3 seconds late) despite the extra haste. Cheers.
@ Kurkis' posts:
Many people know and have been trying to use that macro, there is no doubt it does similar dps (some may argue better) than a perfect timed manual rotation, in addition to having better mana efficiency, and not having to have good hunter timing.
Instead of arguing that it's better/worse, lets try to figure out what makes it actually work or chain and how/why it happens, so more than 2 SV hunters in the world can use it.
Last edited by Intermission : 04/08/08 at 9:35 PM.
My latency is usually around 75-85
Also, the double heroism was more like 1.3 heroisms. One of our shamans messed up his timing.
Also note that I resisted my burn, and another hunter kept up scorpid. The only thing I had to worry about was mark.
DST was staying 2:1, until I thew on the haste cloak. Now it's 3:2
Also, the double heroism was more like 1.3 heroisms. One of our shamans messed up his timing.
Also note that I resisted my burn, and another hunter kept up scorpid. The only thing I had to worry about was mark.
DST was staying 2:1, until I thew on the haste cloak. Now it's 3:2
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Instead of arguing that it's better/worse, lets try to figure out what makes it actually work or chain and how/why it happens, so more than 2 SV hunters in the world can use it.
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To make 7/20/33 function well you need:
DST
50-65 passive haste. This is where it becomes tricky as it's always personal and you have to test what works for you to get 3:2
Group with lots of drums to make quick shots + passive haste + drums combo drop your weapon speed near 2.0
To get 3:2 with 20 or 25 clicks per second macro speed you usually need something between 2.0 to 2.07 weapon speed depending on your latency.
PS. WTB DST with badges.
I think weapon speed is not the accurate way to describe haste, as it seems Steady Shot time is important and only pure haste rating (or Serpents Swiftness) can change that. Some people may think "I'm a bit short on haste rating so I'll use a 2.9 speed weapon" and this may be incorrect.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
I think weapon speed is not the accurate way to describe haste, as it seems Steady Shot time is important and only pure haste rating (or Serpents Swiftness) can change that. Some people may think "I'm a bit short on haste rating so I'll use a 2.9 speed weapon" and this may be incorrect.
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In regards to the two macro set up- I've noticed fewer lock ups since using it, but I still chain steady shots sometimes. It only seems to happen when I'm at low enough haste that I should be producing a 2:1 ratio, and it will sometimes do four steadies in a row. This effectively skips one auto in the 2:1 rotation. It happens about once a minute when I've tested it, and the amount of damage from kill command more than makes up for the missing auto shot.
Since it only happens when I should be doing 2:1, and I never had this problem as BM (or at least never noticed it) I am thinking that it's simply a result of too little haste on the steady shot not leaving enough GCD time for the auto shot to fire. If I can ever get a JC or LW pattern to drop in Sunwell I'll run some tests with more passive haste.
http://http://wowwebstats.com/2s1nhrmfwkuy5?s=8263-8609
Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
Prot Warrior
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid
1 Heroism, Owl Pet - No Scorpid Sting
Ran as 7/20/34
Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
Prot Warrior
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid
1 Heroism, Owl Pet - No Scorpid Sting
Ran as 7/20/34
|
Originally Posted by Kurkis
http://http://wowwebstats.com/2s1nhrmfwkuy5?s=8263-8609
Survival Hunter BM Hunter Prot Warrior Resto Shaman Feral Druid 1 Heroism, Owl Pet - No Scorpid Sting Ran as 7/20/34 |
Using the split macros I was chaining steady shots all night having a lot of 3:1 and 4:1. I did not have DST or iAotH so it might be better with those. The macro is to be spammed right? If only I could have the consistancy of /castsequence and the auto-ajusting of /cast... or if Blizzard could stop being moron and actually unlink auto shot and abilities... my damage right now is awful and makes me look like a retard that don't understand his class, this is really frustrating.
I'm still not sold on the "need enough haste for steady/GCD to work properly" idea. Because I certainly chain *A LOT* while DST and IAotH is up, as well as Lust and Rapid Fire.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
I think weapon speed is not the accurate way to describe haste, as it seems Steady Shot time is important and only pure haste rating (or Serpents Swiftness) can change that. Some people may think "I'm a bit short on haste rating so I'll use a 2.9 speed weapon" and this may be incorrect.
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Hey, it's Rylai.
That parse is a bit weak for me actually, it was getting to the end of the night and I had no haste pots left to use.
I also don't have a DST, and I was running scorpid.
Zero heroisms used on me as well, just my own drums buffing.
Group buffs were GoA + LotP.
Just to give more context to the picture, if you're using that number as a baseline for anything.
That parse is a bit weak for me actually, it was getting to the end of the night and I had no haste pots left to use.
I also don't have a DST, and I was running scorpid.
Zero heroisms used on me as well, just my own drums buffing.
Group buffs were GoA + LotP.
Just to give more context to the picture, if you're using that number as a baseline for anything.
ok. I tested the same macro that Uday had in use, 7/20/34 talent build and I have DST. Using 2.9 speed gun with 31 passive haste. I had latency between 180-230 during the fight and fps as per usual 5-8.
Group setup was:
SV hunter
BM hunter
Feral druid
Resto shaman
warrior
WWS at Azgalor
With the tactic we use it is pure stand and nuke fight. Macro does chain steady shots now and then when no haste proc is active but in the end it results close 3:2 rotation. OK, no pet in use there but I got same results at Rage Winterchill with both KC and LB on the macro.
Group setup was:
SV hunter
BM hunter
Feral druid
Resto shaman
warrior
WWS at Azgalor
With the tactic we use it is pure stand and nuke fight. Macro does chain steady shots now and then when no haste proc is active but in the end it results close 3:2 rotation. OK, no pet in use there but I got same results at Rage Winterchill with both KC and LB on the macro.
Ok, some things to say....
First, about cast/cast macro. I belive you guys read your latency wrong. Here's the results of dr. boom tests I made:
1. tested late at night / early in the morning. Latency reads 45ms
Cast/cast macro, with no chain cast, perfect scaling from 2:1 through 1.5:1 to 1:1 depending on haste.
2. tested between 18:00 and 19:00. Latency reads 70ms
Occasional chain casts (up to 4). Scaling to 1:1 on any haste (wierd).
Now here's what I noticed. I use Quartz, and it's configured to show latency. The latency you read normally is average, Quatz can show you the momentary latency. During "peek hours", my momentary latency can change between 15ms and 300ms from one steady to another. What I observed is, if my momentary latency goes up to more than 150ms, I start chain casting. What's important to remember, is that my average latency displayed in UI stays at 70ms. I would assume, that if you can't keep your momentary latency below 150 ms (ofc dependant on haste), cast/cast macro will just not be valid. The reason for this is probably that the momentary latency pushes auto outside GCD and spamming macro results in another steady cast. Sadly, it seems cast/cast just won't work for me.
About adding the /cast !auto shot line: my observations show, that this in fact helps a bit on the momentary latency thing, but not much. I would assume, that it can clip auto around 0.1sec faster in some cases, but it is heavily based on momentary latency.
----------------------
Now about what Kurkis says: with DST/QS/RF/Haste Pots, I seem to be able to maintain "hasted state" around 75-80% of the time. Seeing as 1.5:1 rotation just doesn't seem to work for my latency, I think that 1:1 is in fact the most latency-independant way to go. For now, I am using 3:2 / 1:1, but the 75-80% hasted time (that's without heroism) just suggests that I should stack up on haste and drop 3:2 altogether. Going 1:1 not only does seem more latency-indepenant, but also makes upgrade choices easier. The only hard moment is to decide, how much haste is enough for 1:1 to do same dps as 3:2 without it.
Still, for those who have perfect flat latency, 2:1/1.5:1/1:1 in armor pen. gear will probably provide much better results.
First, about cast/cast macro. I belive you guys read your latency wrong. Here's the results of dr. boom tests I made:
1. tested late at night / early in the morning. Latency reads 45ms
Cast/cast macro, with no chain cast, perfect scaling from 2:1 through 1.5:1 to 1:1 depending on haste.
2. tested between 18:00 and 19:00. Latency reads 70ms
Occasional chain casts (up to 4). Scaling to 1:1 on any haste (wierd).
Now here's what I noticed. I use Quartz, and it's configured to show latency. The latency you read normally is average, Quatz can show you the momentary latency. During "peek hours", my momentary latency can change between 15ms and 300ms from one steady to another. What I observed is, if my momentary latency goes up to more than 150ms, I start chain casting. What's important to remember, is that my average latency displayed in UI stays at 70ms. I would assume, that if you can't keep your momentary latency below 150 ms (ofc dependant on haste), cast/cast macro will just not be valid. The reason for this is probably that the momentary latency pushes auto outside GCD and spamming macro results in another steady cast. Sadly, it seems cast/cast just won't work for me.
About adding the /cast !auto shot line: my observations show, that this in fact helps a bit on the momentary latency thing, but not much. I would assume, that it can clip auto around 0.1sec faster in some cases, but it is heavily based on momentary latency.
----------------------
Now about what Kurkis says: with DST/QS/RF/Haste Pots, I seem to be able to maintain "hasted state" around 75-80% of the time. Seeing as 1.5:1 rotation just doesn't seem to work for my latency, I think that 1:1 is in fact the most latency-independant way to go. For now, I am using 3:2 / 1:1, but the 75-80% hasted time (that's without heroism) just suggests that I should stack up on haste and drop 3:2 altogether. Going 1:1 not only does seem more latency-indepenant, but also makes upgrade choices easier. The only hard moment is to decide, how much haste is enough for 1:1 to do same dps as 3:2 without it.
Still, for those who have perfect flat latency, 2:1/1.5:1/1:1 in armor pen. gear will probably provide much better results.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I normally raid survival for my guild with a 0/28/33 spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. I noticed a 0/21/40 build provided ~5 more personal DPS with a loss of 17 agi(4AP on EW) but my crit is 37% unbuffed as my hybrid and I don't see master tactician being that beneficial.
But recently I just feel I am doing sub-par DPS in my role. A link to my armory is The World of Warcraft Armory. My shot rotation is a /castsequence as follows:
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=target, exists] Lightning Breath
I have a couple questions. I have been tossing the stats in my head and I believe [Bristleblitz Striker] will give me a larger personal DPS increase over [Legionkiller] than the raid DPS loss with the loss of 6 AP from EW. Also, Cheeky's spreadsheet shows this shot rotation giving the best DPS but I am wondering if in-game experience has brought out a superior rotation/macro.
Pretty much, is this macro/rotation the best DPS if not what are other suggestions and reasons why your rotation is/would be better from a pure damage POV.
My guild has had several sub 10% kalecgos attempts and we will be working on Brutallus soon so I want to make sure I am doing the best DPS possible as survival.
If needed: Wow Web Stats.
On a side note, I did not have 4pcs T6 at the time of this WWS nor was I LW.
But recently I just feel I am doing sub-par DPS in my role. A link to my armory is The World of Warcraft Armory. My shot rotation is a /castsequence as follows:
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=target, exists] Lightning Breath
I have a couple questions. I have been tossing the stats in my head and I believe [Bristleblitz Striker] will give me a larger personal DPS increase over [Legionkiller] than the raid DPS loss with the loss of 6 AP from EW. Also, Cheeky's spreadsheet shows this shot rotation giving the best DPS but I am wondering if in-game experience has brought out a superior rotation/macro.
Pretty much, is this macro/rotation the best DPS if not what are other suggestions and reasons why your rotation is/would be better from a pure damage POV.
My guild has had several sub 10% kalecgos attempts and we will be working on Brutallus soon so I want to make sure I am doing the best DPS possible as survival.
If needed: Wow Web Stats.
On a side note, I did not have 4pcs T6 at the time of this WWS nor was I LW.
Last edited by Rast11 : 04/09/08 at 11:56 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Uday
I still get some steady chains, but i've tested it a few times and the damage done by KC is greater than the damage i lose form an occasional missed auto. I play on a mac, so the G15 is not an option, so i bind it to 6 keys, and roll three fingers from each hand over them. The actual macro is a two-part macro.
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Last edited by Wunlastri : 04/09/08 at 10:32 AM.
Quick update, reaching 2200+ dps (2223 dps on 5 minute with lust attempt was among the highest, along with a 2198 without lust after 4 mins) on Brut using that macro/gear setup WITH chaining steadies quite often! Even with the chains it's very competitive. Now I just need our healers to keep the tanks alive for 6 minutes and for people to re-learn how to move to a safe spot so we can kill the cunt again and get a WWS.
Also, the chaining steadies with that macro (including KC too) surprisingly is not as bad as Badlands chains, its far closer to Netherstorm level of chains!
Also, the chaining steadies with that macro (including KC too) surprisingly is not as bad as Badlands chains, its far closer to Netherstorm level of chains!
Here is a parse from last night: Wow Web Stats
Gonk did 1990. That's with 100% drum uptime and 2 lusts in a BM/BM/SV/Resto Sham/Feral group.
Gonk did 1990. That's with 100% drum uptime and 2 lusts in a BM/BM/SV/Resto Sham/Feral group.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
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I count 6 chains of 3 or 4 steadys in a row on just the first page (~2 min).
| Quick update, reaching 2200+ dps (2223 dps on 5 minute with lust attempt was among the highest, along with a 2198 without lust after 4 mins) on Brut using that macro/gear setup WITH chaining steadies quite often! Even with the chains it's very competitive. |
Non-macro question here (yay handweavers!).
In an effort to achieve balance between Agi and my personal DPS, I'm trying to figure out a general rule to use when looking at possible upgrades. Basically, how much DPS should I sacrifice for an increase to Agility?
Say an item gives me +1 Agi. We'll assume 100% EW uptime and 8 physical DPS classes in the raid.
Raid DPS/1 Agi = 1 Agi * 1.15 (Lightning Reflexes) * 0.25 AP/Agi (EW) * 1 (DPS/class)/14 AP * 8 classes = 0.16 DPS/Agi
In essence, it's saying that increasing my DPS by 1 is equivalent to increasing my Agility by 6.25... which seems kinda low to me.
Example:
Using my current gear and Cheeky's SS with my handweaved 1:1.5 rotation, [Gronnstalker's Boots] would be considered a considerable upgrade over [Quickstrider Moccasins] (using [Delicate Crimson Spinel] in all sockets) because I'd be gaining 13 DPS at the cost of 9 Agi. Using the above formula, a 13 DPS gain would balance out a 78 Agi loss. Does that sound right to you? Because it doesn't sound right to me.
In an effort to achieve balance between Agi and my personal DPS, I'm trying to figure out a general rule to use when looking at possible upgrades. Basically, how much DPS should I sacrifice for an increase to Agility?
Say an item gives me +1 Agi. We'll assume 100% EW uptime and 8 physical DPS classes in the raid.
Raid DPS/1 Agi = 1 Agi * 1.15 (Lightning Reflexes) * 0.25 AP/Agi (EW) * 1 (DPS/class)/14 AP * 8 classes = 0.16 DPS/Agi
In essence, it's saying that increasing my DPS by 1 is equivalent to increasing my Agility by 6.25... which seems kinda low to me.
Example:
Using my current gear and Cheeky's SS with my handweaved 1:1.5 rotation, [Gronnstalker's Boots] would be considered a considerable upgrade over [Quickstrider Moccasins] (using [Delicate Crimson Spinel] in all sockets) because I'd be gaining 13 DPS at the cost of 9 Agi. Using the above formula, a 13 DPS gain would balance out a 78 Agi loss. Does that sound right to you? Because it doesn't sound right to me.
Learning Survival..
Hello,
I've been reading this post for some time and recently I switched from BeastMastery to Survival spec (7/20/34). At the moment I'm aware of the fact my gear is my bottle-neck. Infact I'm still with [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] and [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]. Due to my guild pve-progress very soon I'll be able to replace the head slot with either [Forest Prowler's Helm], [Gronnstalker's Helmet] and [Bristleblitz Striker].
I've read with much interest the last pages of the thread and found out how different people managed to achieve surprising good dps using a BM Macro (2:1, 3:2 that is) using haste effects such as [Dragonspine Trophy], Bloodlust, Drums, Rapid Fire.
I ran some tests and tried to figure out how my hunter could improve during time with the addition of a few items. I went to Dr. Boom and checked out how my dps output is at the moment and I tried (basing on empirical feelings) to figure out what could be the best for me.
Using the 2:1 macro listed about 1-2 pages ago I found out my dps was extremely low, but on the other side I noticed that in presence of Rapid Fire it shines (Had about 750 dps, with rapid fire they quickly evolved into 950dps).
Then I tried a castsequence that emulates the 1:1.5 (/castsequence reset=6 !Auto shot, Steady shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto shot, Steady shot, !Auto shot, Steady shot, Multi-shot, !auto Shot, Steady Shot) and my dps was ranging toward 1150 dps.
I came to a few conclusion based on how my equip will evolve, and I think the best choice for me is to keep going with the 1:1.5 rotation, instead of the 2:1 one. Why? I won't be able to access to [Dragonspine Trophy], my guild of course can't really waste time on a trash mob such as Gruul for an item that could never drop and that could be just an upgrade to me. Given this situation, probably I'll never manage to keep my haste up and take the full benefit of the 2:1 macro (I find that bloodlust, rapid fire, Iaoth are unable to provide me enough "hasted time" in order to make the 2:1 shine).
On the other side the 1:1.5 rotation seems to work fine, Against illidan most of the times I could keep my dps aligned to any other dps class such as warlock, rogues, mages, shadow priests. Mana didn't seem to be a problem at all despite the fact I couldn't benefit the presence of a Shadow priest. (Recount showed a 1300-1400 dps for me)
I'd love to get some feedbacks on my thoughts.
I've been reading this post for some time and recently I switched from BeastMastery to Survival spec (7/20/34). At the moment I'm aware of the fact my gear is my bottle-neck. Infact I'm still with [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] and [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix]. Due to my guild pve-progress very soon I'll be able to replace the head slot with either [Forest Prowler's Helm], [Gronnstalker's Helmet] and [Bristleblitz Striker].
I've read with much interest the last pages of the thread and found out how different people managed to achieve surprising good dps using a BM Macro (2:1, 3:2 that is) using haste effects such as [Dragonspine Trophy], Bloodlust, Drums, Rapid Fire.
I ran some tests and tried to figure out how my hunter could improve during time with the addition of a few items. I went to Dr. Boom and checked out how my dps output is at the moment and I tried (basing on empirical feelings) to figure out what could be the best for me.
Using the 2:1 macro listed about 1-2 pages ago I found out my dps was extremely low, but on the other side I noticed that in presence of Rapid Fire it shines (Had about 750 dps, with rapid fire they quickly evolved into 950dps).
Then I tried a castsequence that emulates the 1:1.5 (/castsequence reset=6 !Auto shot, Steady shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto shot, Steady shot, !Auto shot, Steady shot, Multi-shot, !auto Shot, Steady Shot) and my dps was ranging toward 1150 dps.
I came to a few conclusion based on how my equip will evolve, and I think the best choice for me is to keep going with the 1:1.5 rotation, instead of the 2:1 one. Why? I won't be able to access to [Dragonspine Trophy], my guild of course can't really waste time on a trash mob such as Gruul for an item that could never drop and that could be just an upgrade to me. Given this situation, probably I'll never manage to keep my haste up and take the full benefit of the 2:1 macro (I find that bloodlust, rapid fire, Iaoth are unable to provide me enough "hasted time" in order to make the 2:1 shine).
On the other side the 1:1.5 rotation seems to work fine, Against illidan most of the times I could keep my dps aligned to any other dps class such as warlock, rogues, mages, shadow priests. Mana didn't seem to be a problem at all despite the fact I couldn't benefit the presence of a Shadow priest. (Recount showed a 1300-1400 dps for me)
I'd love to get some feedbacks on my thoughts.
I can't find my math right now but I use 1 agi = .6 raid dps.
Yeah I was chaining a little bit there. I am going to look into fixing that. I was for the sake of testing also haste stacking as much as I could which may have resulted in these chains.
I'm also to debate whether 7/20/34 is a better spec then 0/20/41. I feel without a doubt on a shorter duration fight such as what we see in most of BT/Hyjal that the 0/20/41 spec allows the greatest DPS. After a few runs through Sunwell on this spec and the length of the fights I gave the 7/20/34 spec a try.
I can't complain hitting 2065 w/ on 1 Heroism. My failure in this fight may have been the haste stacking to try to increase burst. I was taking Haste Pots w/ Rapid Fires and taking Haste Pots/Rapid Fire w/ a Heroism getting my attack speed down to .86
Moneyshots the hunter you see in the WWS does the same. He is a new recruit from a guild called Promethean and he had been explaining to me the benefits of doing this so I decided I would give it a try with him.
I think it still perhaps better to seperate all of your hastes even if the fights are running longer then they normally do. Next week I will test that out.
You have Uday and myself posting over 2k DPS with this style of play and you have Gonktarget posting 1990 w/ a strong 1:1.5 rotation, 2 heroisms and 2 BM hunters buffing him FI. I have no doubt he was doing what he could to maximize his DPS on that fight and it shows to me that the 1:1.5 rotation is going to hold you back. To me Gonktarget is maximizing that rotation and milking it for all it is worth to squeeze out as much DPS as possible and with the nature of this rotation he has pretty much maximized the DPS you can do with it. Even Intermission posts 1952 doing this rotation last week.
Hopefully, Intermission kills Brutallus today and is able to post his logs using the same style of play as UDay and I so more of you can start to realize that this really is the more ideal way to play the Survival spec in the end game.
I look forward to this because the question will be how to maximize this rotation as far as how you handle cooldowns, which spec to use 7/20/34 or 0/20/41 - Is it best to scoop up all the haste and get yourself down to a 2.13 or slightly less speed or so you stay at 2.46 and stack armor pen. All of these things need to be figured out over the course of the coming months and it is alot easier to test them when more people are on board then 1 or 2 guys trying to figure it out for themselves.
I'm also to debate whether 7/20/34 is a better spec then 0/20/41. I feel without a doubt on a shorter duration fight such as what we see in most of BT/Hyjal that the 0/20/41 spec allows the greatest DPS. After a few runs through Sunwell on this spec and the length of the fights I gave the 7/20/34 spec a try.
I can't complain hitting 2065 w/ on 1 Heroism. My failure in this fight may have been the haste stacking to try to increase burst. I was taking Haste Pots w/ Rapid Fires and taking Haste Pots/Rapid Fire w/ a Heroism getting my attack speed down to .86
Moneyshots the hunter you see in the WWS does the same. He is a new recruit from a guild called Promethean and he had been explaining to me the benefits of doing this so I decided I would give it a try with him.
I think it still perhaps better to seperate all of your hastes even if the fights are running longer then they normally do. Next week I will test that out.
You have Uday and myself posting over 2k DPS with this style of play and you have Gonktarget posting 1990 w/ a strong 1:1.5 rotation, 2 heroisms and 2 BM hunters buffing him FI. I have no doubt he was doing what he could to maximize his DPS on that fight and it shows to me that the 1:1.5 rotation is going to hold you back. To me Gonktarget is maximizing that rotation and milking it for all it is worth to squeeze out as much DPS as possible and with the nature of this rotation he has pretty much maximized the DPS you can do with it. Even Intermission posts 1952 doing this rotation last week.
Hopefully, Intermission kills Brutallus today and is able to post his logs using the same style of play as UDay and I so more of you can start to realize that this really is the more ideal way to play the Survival spec in the end game.
I look forward to this because the question will be how to maximize this rotation as far as how you handle cooldowns, which spec to use 7/20/34 or 0/20/41 - Is it best to scoop up all the haste and get yourself down to a 2.13 or slightly less speed or so you stay at 2.46 and stack armor pen. All of these things need to be figured out over the course of the coming months and it is alot easier to test them when more people are on board then 1 or 2 guys trying to figure it out for themselves.
Sounds to me like SV just benefits more from OP groups then BM for the various stated reasons. With that in mind, if hunter sees no drastic change in the expansion and gearing stays along the same lines, it stands to reason that SV could be the new top spec at 80.
Hi all, first post on here so be gentle!
I've read much of this thread in great interest, but to no avail it seems.
My raid dps just isnt what it should be, I've tried manually weaving shots and a mixture of all the macros listed here.
The current macros I was trying are;
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and
/use [modifier:alt] Bloodlust Brooch
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I have a 0/28/33 build and my gear is ok I think, as can be seen here: The World of Warcraft Armory
Heres the WWS for an average fight: Wow Web Stats
I'm at my wits end with it, also I'm not sure if its my 4-12fps I get in raids ruining it.
If it helps I'm running a Pentium 4 3.40GHz, GeForce 8600GT with 2gb RAM, over 2 monitors.
Any help anyone could give without flaming me too much would be greatly appreciated.
I've read much of this thread in great interest, but to no avail it seems.
My raid dps just isnt what it should be, I've tried manually weaving shots and a mixture of all the macros listed here.
The current macros I was trying are;
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and
/use [modifier:alt] Bloodlust Brooch
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I have a 0/28/33 build and my gear is ok I think, as can be seen here: The World of Warcraft Armory
Heres the WWS for an average fight: Wow Web Stats
I'm at my wits end with it, also I'm not sure if its my 4-12fps I get in raids ruining it.
If it helps I'm running a Pentium 4 3.40GHz, GeForce 8600GT with 2gb RAM, over 2 monitors.
Any help anyone could give without flaming me too much would be greatly appreciated.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
As far as cooldowns go, I find that separating them works best for me. My expeirence with the spec is still limited to 2 Brut kills and one Kalecgos kill as SV. For all intents and purposes, I'm geared and play as a BM, and I just happen to have my talent points allocated to a SV spec at the moment. I even use and spam the exact same macro as I did when I was BM.
I pop drums and a haste pot as soon as I start DPSing Brutallus. When the pot wears off I FD and pop RF as soon as I'm certain it wasn't resisted. Then I ride my haste procs until a Heroism or my CD's are up. With no ret paladin, I usually end up having to use one potion CD on a fel mana, and the other two on haste pots. I find that spreading out the haste cooldowns in order to minimize the amount of time spent in a 2:1 ratio works better than stacking them all together to spend a bit of time in 1:1, especially when a proc on top of one of the cooldowns can put you into 1:1 for a while anyway.
Also, looking over last night's WWS, I saw a lot more chains than previously. That said, I still managed 2k DPS again. This is without hawk for the first 2 minutes of the fight, and one heroism instead of the two I had last week. I want to log a few more kills, but it seems that despite the steady chains, it is still consistently competitive with BM hunters. I'm thinking about making one of the other hunters spec SV once we get our raid DPS a bit higher so that I can try this fight BM to see how the BM spec does with my same level of gear/latency/group comp/ personal play style etc.
2nd Brutallus kill
I pop drums and a haste pot as soon as I start DPSing Brutallus. When the pot wears off I FD and pop RF as soon as I'm certain it wasn't resisted. Then I ride my haste procs until a Heroism or my CD's are up. With no ret paladin, I usually end up having to use one potion CD on a fel mana, and the other two on haste pots. I find that spreading out the haste cooldowns in order to minimize the amount of time spent in a 2:1 ratio works better than stacking them all together to spend a bit of time in 1:1, especially when a proc on top of one of the cooldowns can put you into 1:1 for a while anyway.
Also, looking over last night's WWS, I saw a lot more chains than previously. That said, I still managed 2k DPS again. This is without hawk for the first 2 minutes of the fight, and one heroism instead of the two I had last week. I want to log a few more kills, but it seems that despite the steady chains, it is still consistently competitive with BM hunters. I'm thinking about making one of the other hunters spec SV once we get our raid DPS a bit higher so that I can try this fight BM to see how the BM spec does with my same level of gear/latency/group comp/ personal play style etc.
2nd Brutallus kill
Last edited by Uday : 04/09/08 at 3:08 PM.
Uday, that's a very interesting WWS! When you say you were using the same macro as BM, I assume you were using the 3:2 Steady macro? I've been struggling for a while trying to get survival working for me, between trying to handweave or macro a 1:1.5, or even trying the 2:1 macro discussed in here, but to no avail, I was pulling a measly 1600 DPS or so. Granted, I didn't get a Heroism and had to burn all my potions on mana, but I might try what you did to see if that makes any improvement. Thanks for the inspiration, I like all your hunters at the top
My head's about to explode from the information overload on haste and rotations in pages 55-58. Say, hypothetically, that a hunter has no passive haste on his gear. Say that he also likes to manually weave a 1:1.5 rotation with a 3.0 speed bow. Sometimes he is lucky to get bloodlust. As I understand it, he is able to:
Use the
/cast !auto
/cast steady macro.
1) With no haste, manually weave in arcane and multi after every second steady. (1:1.5)
2) With Rapid fire and troll berserking only (which is "lots of haste"), spam the macro to drop down to a 1:1 hopefully.
3) With bloodlust only (since it's only "moderate haste"), spam the macro to drop down to a 2:1 hopefully.
Am I correct? Or do I need to go back and read all those pages again.
Use the
/cast !auto
/cast steady macro.
1) With no haste, manually weave in arcane and multi after every second steady. (1:1.5)
2) With Rapid fire and troll berserking only (which is "lots of haste"), spam the macro to drop down to a 1:1 hopefully.
3) With bloodlust only (since it's only "moderate haste"), spam the macro to drop down to a 2:1 hopefully.
Am I correct? Or do I need to go back and read all those pages again.
@Snipehunter
If I understand correctly, multi shot and arcane shot aren't part of the rotation when spamming the macro you gave. You will only use steady and auto with that macro.
If I understand correctly, multi shot and arcane shot aren't part of the rotation when spamming the macro you gave. You will only use steady and auto with that macro.
Yes, I understand that. I just wanted to confirm that no haste = 1:1.5, moderate haste = 2:1, and lots of haste = 1:1, and that this is all possible with one macro, i.e. during 1:1.5 I have to press arcane/multi myself, and during 2:1/1:1 I just spam it.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
From unhasted to very hasted, the /cast/cast macro will take you from a 2:1 ratio, to a 3:2 ratio, then to a 1:1 ratio. Those are all ratios of steady shots: auto shots. If when the stars line up and you have all your haste procs on top of one or more cooldowns, you can even reach a 1:2 ratio.
Last edited by Uday : 04/09/08 at 5:38 PM.
Aren't you supposed to lose a lot of dps while being totally unhasted with a 3:2 rotation? I thought the best rotation for unhasted situations was 1:1.5.
So here is my info from Brut last night using the 2:1 rotation:
Wow Web Stats
I did manage to geta Heroism, but I was again in a caster group...so no real group buffs. Got a few Drums, but other than that, no Feral or BM or GoA.
If you compare my numbers to people like Kurkis or others - they are almost the exact same number of shots, so obviously that is not the issue. The macro worked fine for me in regards to doing a 2:1...it just did not produce the same numbers for whatever reason - be it group make-up, cirt rate (about a 5-10% crit difference), or other things like not having a DST or whatever.
I think that for being in a group, basically by myself, the DPS output is good - however it is not a noticeable difference from last week with the 1.5:1 rotation, shown here:
Wow Web Stats
I was able to pick up the [Clutch of Demise] last night, so im on my way to getting a passive Haste set, which I think will help a lot with making the 2:1 rotation a lot better for me.
If anyone sees anything I could have done differently in my WWS (besides suggesting group make-up), im all ears. Im still trying to get a DST though...every week. Maybe one day...
The best thing about last night was that we were able to get some amazing attempts on the Twin Sisters. And for anyone wondering, the fight is completly INSANE. We were up till about 4-5am doing attempts on them, and made some really good progress. And for anyone wondering, yes...it is a pet friendly fight. So good luck to any of the other Hunetrs here who are also on them...I have a feeling Blizz will have to "tune" the fight a little bit - as there are a good amount of luck factors in the fight. But well see.
Wow Web Stats
I did manage to geta Heroism, but I was again in a caster group...so no real group buffs. Got a few Drums, but other than that, no Feral or BM or GoA.
If you compare my numbers to people like Kurkis or others - they are almost the exact same number of shots, so obviously that is not the issue. The macro worked fine for me in regards to doing a 2:1...it just did not produce the same numbers for whatever reason - be it group make-up, cirt rate (about a 5-10% crit difference), or other things like not having a DST or whatever.
I think that for being in a group, basically by myself, the DPS output is good - however it is not a noticeable difference from last week with the 1.5:1 rotation, shown here:
Wow Web Stats
I was able to pick up the [Clutch of Demise] last night, so im on my way to getting a passive Haste set, which I think will help a lot with making the 2:1 rotation a lot better for me.
If anyone sees anything I could have done differently in my WWS (besides suggesting group make-up), im all ears. Im still trying to get a DST though...every week. Maybe one day...
The best thing about last night was that we were able to get some amazing attempts on the Twin Sisters. And for anyone wondering, the fight is completly INSANE. We were up till about 4-5am doing attempts on them, and made some really good progress. And for anyone wondering, yes...it is a pet friendly fight. So good luck to any of the other Hunetrs here who are also on them...I have a feeling Blizz will have to "tune" the fight a little bit - as there are a good amount of luck factors in the fight. But well see.
Guess I might as well show my effort so far. As usual, here's the list of excuses how I could have improved my dps.
We wiped for hours on the boss so eventually I got switched to two hunter group from feral druid / resto shaman group to make room for imp.
I switched wind serpent to a pvp specced owl which only has screech as spammable ability. Compared to wind serpent the dps loss is probably close to 50.
I thought it was about to be another wipe as a healer died at 30% hence I missed one haste potion. Dont know much dps that is, 10-15?
Heh, 43% crit rate. I should have closer to 50% with 0/20/41.
No scrolls on pet or me. 20 dps?
I might have dropped my imp HM for a few seconds on the boss as well...
So if I add those up it'd be 1596+166+50+10+20 plus what ever higher crit rate would give. 1850 on a "perfect" kill should be easily doable with 0/20/41 when your only group buffs are two BM hunters and two sets of drums.
This is without DST btw.. Dont want to know what kind of numbers it'd be possible to pull off with 7/20/33 and DST. :|
Link for WWS: Wow Web Stats You have to add pet to my dps (and other hunters as well) manually as I managed to screw up the log.
We wiped for hours on the boss so eventually I got switched to two hunter group from feral druid / resto shaman group to make room for imp.
I switched wind serpent to a pvp specced owl which only has screech as spammable ability. Compared to wind serpent the dps loss is probably close to 50.
I thought it was about to be another wipe as a healer died at 30% hence I missed one haste potion. Dont know much dps that is, 10-15?
Heh, 43% crit rate. I should have closer to 50% with 0/20/41.
No scrolls on pet or me. 20 dps?
I might have dropped my imp HM for a few seconds on the boss as well...
So if I add those up it'd be 1596+166+50+10+20 plus what ever higher crit rate would give. 1850 on a "perfect" kill should be easily doable with 0/20/41 when your only group buffs are two BM hunters and two sets of drums.
This is without DST btw.. Dont want to know what kind of numbers it'd be possible to pull off with 7/20/33 and DST. :|
Link for WWS: Wow Web Stats You have to add pet to my dps (and other hunters as well) manually as I managed to screw up the log.
The first thing is your spec 0/20/41. I promoted this spec and I still do under the conditions of a 4 minute or shorter fight. BT/Hyjal fights are pretty short and when you use this spec to run a controlled hasted state like I've discussed in previous posts it works really well.
For obvious reasons the Sunwell fights for now are longer and I am questioning the power of 0/20/41 (for right now). I'm trying out 7/20/34 because I now have KC working (good enough to merit using it) and with the longer fights I think the quick shots procs and 2% damage boost from Focused Fire will simply work better then the extra Rapid Fire and Master tact.
I could be wrong here and I am hoping Intermission has success using the 0/20/41 spec on Brutallus like he claims he was earlier in this thread so I can see how he did things.
We are going to build haste sets slowly with bits and pieces and the Quickshots is going to eventually bring you down to a 2.1 speed. Right now Quickshots procs for me now I am at 2.19 speed. After a Felspine drops and any crafting pattern that number will be closer to 2.1
After the 325 haste rating set is obtained I look to go back to 0/20/41.
Both specs needs to be tested in BT/Sunwell under optimal and non-optimal conditions to gauge which is better or if it simply comes down to choice.
As for your DPS on Brutallus using that rotation. You aren't spec'd for quick shots and you don't have a DST. So if you shot the same amount of shots (or close) it most likely took longer for you guys to kill him which will explain alot. You also want to make sure you maximize all of your chances to use haste.
The general rotation which Uday has mentioned is to Haste pot first, Rapid Fire 2nd. You need to do this early so you can get a chance for that extra haste pot at the end of the fight. If you remain 0/20/41 for testing you would want to Haste Pot, Rapid Fire, Readiness, Rapid Fire
Another thing here is for those of you who get Shamans and aren't receiving GOA - They need to be twisting it. GOA does nothing but benefit your personal DPS as well as make Expose better increasing the raid's overall DPS. A Feral druid giving you the 5% crit allows you to get Expose up quicker and keep it up longer. These two buffs are not a luxury buff for a Survival hunter to receive so you can E-peen the charts. Those buffs specifically benefit your ability to buff the raid with expose. Like somebody mentioned..... Survival and MM hunters will benefit much much more from optimal group make-ups then BM hunters.
For obvious reasons the Sunwell fights for now are longer and I am questioning the power of 0/20/41 (for right now). I'm trying out 7/20/34 because I now have KC working (good enough to merit using it) and with the longer fights I think the quick shots procs and 2% damage boost from Focused Fire will simply work better then the extra Rapid Fire and Master tact.
I could be wrong here and I am hoping Intermission has success using the 0/20/41 spec on Brutallus like he claims he was earlier in this thread so I can see how he did things.
We are going to build haste sets slowly with bits and pieces and the Quickshots is going to eventually bring you down to a 2.1 speed. Right now Quickshots procs for me now I am at 2.19 speed. After a Felspine drops and any crafting pattern that number will be closer to 2.1
After the 325 haste rating set is obtained I look to go back to 0/20/41.
Both specs needs to be tested in BT/Sunwell under optimal and non-optimal conditions to gauge which is better or if it simply comes down to choice.
As for your DPS on Brutallus using that rotation. You aren't spec'd for quick shots and you don't have a DST. So if you shot the same amount of shots (or close) it most likely took longer for you guys to kill him which will explain alot. You also want to make sure you maximize all of your chances to use haste.
The general rotation which Uday has mentioned is to Haste pot first, Rapid Fire 2nd. You need to do this early so you can get a chance for that extra haste pot at the end of the fight. If you remain 0/20/41 for testing you would want to Haste Pot, Rapid Fire, Readiness, Rapid Fire
Another thing here is for those of you who get Shamans and aren't receiving GOA - They need to be twisting it. GOA does nothing but benefit your personal DPS as well as make Expose better increasing the raid's overall DPS. A Feral druid giving you the 5% crit allows you to get Expose up quicker and keep it up longer. These two buffs are not a luxury buff for a Survival hunter to receive so you can E-peen the charts. Those buffs specifically benefit your ability to buff the raid with expose. Like somebody mentioned..... Survival and MM hunters will benefit much much more from optimal group make-ups then BM hunters.
Thanks for the tip Kurkis. I used 2x rapid fire and then haste pot. :|
@ Kurkis- I'm curious as to why are you shooting for a 325 passive set? With a 3.0 weapon, 325 still leaves me with a 2:1 ratio. 78 Passive plus the 325 DST proc still results in 2:1. The DST proc only gives me a 2:3 when I add another piece of haste gear, putting me at 105. This indicates that the magic number is more than 403, but not more than 430.
It seems to me that there are 3 numbers to shoot for. The first is somewhere between 78 and 105, and will result in a DST proc dropping you to a 3:2 ratio.
Next is somewhere around 160 passive haste- enough to make IAotH procs drop you to a 3:2 rotation on it's own.
Finally, if you go all out you could hit 400+ and be in a 3:2 by default.
It seems to me that there are 3 numbers to shoot for. The first is somewhere between 78 and 105, and will result in a DST proc dropping you to a 3:2 ratio.
Next is somewhere around 160 passive haste- enough to make IAotH procs drop you to a 3:2 rotation on it's own.
Finally, if you go all out you could hit 400+ and be in a 3:2 by default.
I haven't added up the haste numbers so my number of 325 was just a general number, not the magic number.
You and I are most likely looking at the same upgrades in this zone and then tweaking it with a Cloak of the Fiends or Bracer of Lightning Reflexes.
Sunwell is young right now I'm not very focused in on that end of it yet. I just know that is the route I am going to start to take and if it must change then it will.
You and I are most likely looking at the same upgrades in this zone and then tweaking it with a Cloak of the Fiends or Bracer of Lightning Reflexes.
Sunwell is young right now I'm not very focused in on that end of it yet. I just know that is the route I am going to start to take and if it must change then it will.
I just went through and looked at it, and hitting 400 passive is going to be incredibly hard if at all possible, and probably cost you your 4 pc T6 bonus. 325-335ish is probably going to be where we want to end up. And convince your group of the wonders of leatherworking to make up the last 80 haste rating needed.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Yeah we run alot of drums so for me having 4 in a group isn't a problem which is most likely where I pulled that 325 number from when I did the math back on PTR
Last edited by Kurkis : 04/09/08 at 8:32 PM.
We're an aussie guild so we raid at the opposite time to you guys, Kirkis. When I posted that we had actually called it a night. We'll be there tonight (it's the next morning and I'm at work at the moment) and I'll make sure I'm in the same bloody group too :P
In regards to haste cooldowns, before the first pull I quickly sketched out a timeline which seemed to make sense so I stuck to it.
HP = Haste Post = 15 seconds
RF = Rapid Fire = 15 seconds
BL = places Blood Lust can go = 40 seconds
6--------5--------4--------3--------2--------1--------0
---HP---RF--BL------HP--BL-------RF--HP---BL-------
That should work for most peoples font/size I hope.
If your first FD resists, you can push back the haste/rapid a full 30 seconds without coming close to "missing" a potential haste/rapid:
6--------5--------4--------3--------2--------1--------0
--------HP---RF--BL------HP--BL-------RF--HP------
In regards to haste cooldowns, before the first pull I quickly sketched out a timeline which seemed to make sense so I stuck to it.
HP = Haste Post = 15 seconds
RF = Rapid Fire = 15 seconds
BL = places Blood Lust can go = 40 seconds
6--------5--------4--------3--------2--------1--------0
---HP---RF--BL------HP--BL-------RF--HP---BL-------
That should work for most peoples font/size I hope.
If your first FD resists, you can push back the haste/rapid a full 30 seconds without coming close to "missing" a potential haste/rapid:
6--------5--------4--------3--------2--------1--------0
--------HP---RF--BL------HP--BL-------RF--HP------
These are some of the numbers I've been crunching over at BRK forums for Survival spec build with Beastmaster level haste ratings. Let me know what you guys think
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I played around in Warcrafter's Sandbox a little with all the new haste gear, and I was able to build a very nice Suvival spec with 343 haste rating (only 11 haste rating over the theoretical, putting it firmly in the range of beast master speeds), 35% crit, 882 agility unbuffed, perfectly capped hit rating, 2412 unbuffed attack power. Granted, you would have to have the most generous guild in the world with respect to gear, mats, gems, and you'd have to be a leatherworking enchanter, but it is possible outside of theoretics. I wish I could put Thor'idal on this, but it's not in the Sandbox from what I can tell, so I used the Golden Bow instead, best SV stat + the speed is perfect with the little bit of extra haste, should be right at around the ideal attack speed for a 3:2 rotation. Only major downside is smaller mana pool, would have to run with Viper or SPriest/Shaman/FelManas, but luckily, has the 2-piece T6 bonus for improved Viper regen. Here's the link: 70 Tauren Hunter Here's with ideal buffs + procs: 70 Tauren Hunter |
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Originally Posted by Manito
These are some of the numbers I've been crunching over at BRK forums for Survival spec build with Beastmaster level haste ratings. Let me know what you guys think
|
Seriously though, add the Blackened Naaru Sliver in place of the Tsunami talisman, and a LW group with full drums, and you'd always be in a 3:2 BM rotation. It's definitely an interesting prospect. If only it were realistic to compile this gear set before WotLK.
While the ability to scale into a 3:2 and a 1:1 rotation is great, I really dont think that's the entire aim of the macro/style of play, is it? The dps while 2:1 is good too! I dont think sacrificing dps and raid-dps stats (agility, armor pen, etc) should be done blindly, simply to stay perma-3:2 with drums.
Maybe I'm way off, and the advantage of gaining the extra auto per x amount of steadies is so huge that haste becomes the greatest gain per ilvl-point by a massive margin (eg horde ret paladins), provided you reach the threshold to take you to 3:2, with incremental haste levels before and after that point becoming far less useful. Seems like a stretch, I'd rather pile on the agi (Gogo Necklace of the 2 Crimson Spinels) and other stats, trying to pick up some haste where applicable.
Maybe I'm way off, and the advantage of gaining the extra auto per x amount of steadies is so huge that haste becomes the greatest gain per ilvl-point by a massive margin (eg horde ret paladins), provided you reach the threshold to take you to 3:2, with incremental haste levels before and after that point becoming far less useful. Seems like a stretch, I'd rather pile on the agi (Gogo Necklace of the 2 Crimson Spinels) and other stats, trying to pick up some haste where applicable.
So using a 2:1 with DST and 7/20/34, but no passive haste gear, would you rather be using Berserker's Call or the BT trinket. It seems like the BT trinket will have enough uptime to make the overall AP better, but the control offered by the Zerker for Rapid Fire and other hasted effects also seems pretty good :X
Well unfortunately I lost my Feral druid, and we didnt have a ret paladin (lost 3% crit and went oom at 3%). I got TWO lusts though, much to my surprise.
Anyway, here's my WWS using that macro, with a few chains. 2309 dps (no sting, Ravager pet, leveling a Wind Serpent whenever I have time)
edit: if you're wondering why my dps on the previous attempts was so low, I had massive lag probs and had to turn off Omen/Recount/etc, I kept on DC'ing. It was pretty much perfect on the kill though.
Anyway, here's my WWS using that macro, with a few chains. 2309 dps (no sting, Ravager pet, leveling a Wind Serpent whenever I have time)
edit: if you're wondering why my dps on the previous attempts was so low, I had massive lag probs and had to turn off Omen/Recount/etc, I kept on DC'ing. It was pretty much perfect on the kill though.
Last edited by Intermission : Yesterday at 6:14 AM.
Nice. What was your exact group composition? Trying to get them to give me two lusts next week to see if i can get near 2300. (my 2100 with 2 lusts was really one because one shaman fails at timing and popped his on top of the other one)
As far as haste goes, I'm shooting for 170, which should be doable without sacrificing much- assuming the JC designs ever drop. I think that's going to be the sweet spot, with decent DPS gains going from 150-170 because of its' interaction with quick shots, and lower gains for any haste afterwards.
Edit. I also want to see your WWS with a wind serpent next week. Your ravager out performed my wind serpent in every area except for LB>Gore. I'd like to see your wind serpent though, to see if it's simply the result of your racial's effect on your pet , or if the damage modifier on the ravager is > than the more efficient focus dump ability.
Looking over our reports really closely, I can't wait to get back on brutallus with 2 heroisms. I'm pretty sure I can put out pretty close to 2300. There was a 15DPS difference in our pets, but the rest was a result of your slightly higher RAP and some bad luck I had with the RNG (50% crit, but 35% crit rate on my autos =(
All in all though, it worked for you with only 53 haste. I think that this method is turning out to be pretty reliable despite the occasional steady chains.
As far as haste goes, I'm shooting for 170, which should be doable without sacrificing much- assuming the JC designs ever drop. I think that's going to be the sweet spot, with decent DPS gains going from 150-170 because of its' interaction with quick shots, and lower gains for any haste afterwards.
Edit. I also want to see your WWS with a wind serpent next week. Your ravager out performed my wind serpent in every area except for LB>Gore. I'd like to see your wind serpent though, to see if it's simply the result of your racial's effect on your pet , or if the damage modifier on the ravager is > than the more efficient focus dump ability.
Looking over our reports really closely, I can't wait to get back on brutallus with 2 heroisms. I'm pretty sure I can put out pretty close to 2300. There was a 15DPS difference in our pets, but the rest was a result of your slightly higher RAP and some bad luck I had with the RNG (50% crit, but 35% crit rate on my autos =(
All in all though, it worked for you with only 53 haste. I think that this method is turning out to be pretty reliable despite the occasional steady chains.
Last edited by Uday : Yesterday at 10:19 AM.
BM/BM/BM/SV/Enhance. My dps really wasn't that good considering the group and lusts, as usual I can count the multiple fuck-ups or disadvantages, the downside to being a perfectionist! I think the BM hunters could of done a bit better though =/
The JC neck has zero Agi... I intend to stick with my Necklace of the Deep until WotLK. The Khorium Ring vs ZA/Badge ring is a tough one too. However I would like the cloak from ZA, only a 3 agi loss. Some of the late Sunwell gear though, mmmm tasty.
Cheers again for showing us your original /cast/cast macro dps. I haven't used a macro to do max dps for the last ~12 months, so naturally I thought to myself it's just another crutch trying it's best to imitate real dps. But after seeing yours and Kurkis' (plus others) dps amounts using a simple macro, I had to give it a shot. Although next week if I have the same group I'll go 1:1.5 manual (and gear/spec appropriately). While I'm convinced the macro can do good dps, I'm not convinced is does *better* dps than a perfect hand weave 1:1.5.
The JC neck has zero Agi... I intend to stick with my Necklace of the Deep until WotLK. The Khorium Ring vs ZA/Badge ring is a tough one too. However I would like the cloak from ZA, only a 3 agi loss. Some of the late Sunwell gear though, mmmm tasty.
Cheers again for showing us your original /cast/cast macro dps. I haven't used a macro to do max dps for the last ~12 months, so naturally I thought to myself it's just another crutch trying it's best to imitate real dps. But after seeing yours and Kurkis' (plus others) dps amounts using a simple macro, I had to give it a shot. Although next week if I have the same group I'll go 1:1.5 manual (and gear/spec appropriately). While I'm convinced the macro can do good dps, I'm not convinced is does *better* dps than a perfect hand weave 1:1.5.
The problem with a perfect hand weave is that my ability to hand weave for 6 minutes while adjusting for haste and maintaining awareness is no where near perfect. Granted the macro isn't perfect either with it's steady chains, but it seems to work better for me. And since I've never geared for survival, I have a good amount of haste that would be wasted on a standard 1:1.5, but which lends itself quite well to a variable haste responsive approach. While it may not be the best choice for my circumstances at the moment, I am very interested to see how your hand weave does next week compared to your macro use this week.
The DPS potential of a Survival Hunter (albeit in a heavily haste boosting group) is higher than I'd have thought. With the somewhat questionable pet viability on some Sunwell fights, might there actually be a benefit of going Survival over Beast Mastery in some fights, in terms of DPS?
Which leads to the question that, since Expose Weakness doesn't stack, how would a Marksmanship Hunter fare with a similar setup/macro? Would, in a pet hating fight, a Marksmanship Hunter be able to surpass a Beast Master Hunter?
How would, in a pet-friendly fight (e.g. Brutallus), a Marksmanship Hunter place on damage?
Which leads to the question that, since Expose Weakness doesn't stack, how would a Marksmanship Hunter fare with a similar setup/macro? Would, in a pet hating fight, a Marksmanship Hunter be able to surpass a Beast Master Hunter?
How would, in a pet-friendly fight (e.g. Brutallus), a Marksmanship Hunter place on damage?
Well for sure a MM hunter would outperform BM hunter on Felmyst.
I read the whole thread but i am not sure about the following:
Using a /cast macro should I use Kill Command?
Using a /cast macro should I use Kill Command?
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Originally Posted by Lactose
The DPS potential of a Survival Hunter (albeit in a heavily haste boosting group) is higher than I'd have thought. With the somewhat questionable pet viability on some Sunwell fights, might there actually be a benefit of going Survival over Beast Mastery in some fights, in terms of DPS?
Which leads to the question that, since Expose Weakness doesn't stack, how would a Marksmanship Hunter fare with a similar setup/macro? Would, in a pet hating fight, a Marksmanship Hunter be able to surpass a Beast Master Hunter? How would, in a pet-friendly fight (e.g. Brutallus), a Marksmanship Hunter place on damage? |
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Originally Posted by Intermission
BM/BM/BM/SV/Enhance. My dps really wasn't that good considering the group and lusts, as usual I can count the multiple fuck-ups or disadvantages, the downside to being a perfectionist! I think the BM hunters could of done a bit better though =/
The JC neck has zero Agi... I intend to stick with my Necklace of the Deep until WotLK. The Khorium Ring vs ZA/Badge ring is a tough one too. However I would like the cloak from ZA, only a 3 agi loss. Some of the late Sunwell gear though, mmmm tasty. Cheers again for showing us your original /cast/cast macro dps. I haven't used a macro to do max dps for the last ~12 months, so naturally I thought to myself it's just another crutch trying it's best to imitate real dps. But after seeing yours and Kurkis' (plus others) dps amounts using a simple macro, I had to give it a shot. Although next week if I have the same group I'll go 1:1.5 manual (and gear/spec appropriately). While I'm convinced the macro can do good dps, I'm not convinced is does *better* dps than a perfect hand weave 1:1.5. |
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Originally Posted by Lactose
The DPS potential of a Survival Hunter (albeit in a heavily haste boosting group) is higher than I'd have thought. With the somewhat questionable pet viability on some Sunwell fights, might there actually be a benefit of going Survival over Beast Mastery in some fights, in terms of DPS?
Which leads to the question that, since Expose Weakness doesn't stack, how would a Marksmanship Hunter fare with a similar setup/macro? Would, in a pet hating fight, a Marksmanship Hunter be able to surpass a Beast Master Hunter? How would, in a pet-friendly fight (e.g. Brutallus), a Marksmanship Hunter place on damage? |
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Originally Posted by Kaladian
I was thinking the same thing as you Lactose. Everything i read said haste is bad for MM hunters but after readign this SV thread my first thoguht is under the same factors MM would do just as well if not better then SV. The only problem i see is you spend alot of points in MM to make MS better only to use 3:2 steady shot macro. Once i get some more haste items i will be working on this.
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This is what I have in mind to try related to this topic. You don't need the Multi-Shot improving talents since you optimize for the steady shot spam. (also providing nice party / raid buffs with ImpHM and TSA - especially if you manage to get squeezed into a 4 hunter / shaman group like someone above did)
And on top of that, you also benefit from some decent pet damage on those pet friendly fights, that should loosen the gap between MM and BM.
One question this raises in my mind, if we are going towards the BM rotation and heavy haste ideally with support from the 4 piece t6 bonus does that make the badge crossbow into a viable survival weapon? My current plans are aimed towards getting the ring and gloves as first purchases but I may rethink that to bow + ring based on thoughts here.
Current ranged weapon choices are Vashj Bow and Legionkiller. I was away from the game when current guild was clearing Hyjal, have been unlucky in BT runs, and deemed (probably rightly so) under geared for sunwell.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Current ranged weapon choices are Vashj Bow and Legionkiller. I was away from the game when current guild was clearing Hyjal, have been unlucky in BT runs, and deemed (probably rightly so) under geared for sunwell.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Last edited by Tazrach : Yesterday at 2:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by osuracnaes
In an effort to achieve balance between Agi and my personal DPS, I'm trying to figure out a general rule to use when looking at possible upgrades. Basically, how much DPS should I sacrifice for an increase to Agility?
Say an item gives me +1 Agi. We'll assume 100% EW uptime and 8 physical DPS classes in the raid. Raid DPS/1 Agi = 1 Agi * 1.15 (Lightning Reflexes) * 0.25 AP/Agi (EW) * 1 (DPS/class)/14 AP * 8 classes = 0.16 DPS/Agi In essence, it's saying that increasing my DPS by 1 is equivalent to increasing my Agility by 6.25... which seems kinda low to me. |
First, my priority is gear that improves my overall raid contribution, with a small skew towards personal DPS since I am not always on the same target as all the physical DPS or performing my ideal rotation. Thus, I look for gear that gives the raid a net positive increase in DPS, with ideally both personal DPS and my separate raid contribution increasing.
To compare gear, I use Cheeky's spreadsheet to perform the analysis since it helps me account for a lot more variables, including doing regemming and regearing other slots for maximum benefit. I also do the analysis with at the minimum the Kings buff since it causes additional scaling to my agility and is the number one pally buff I always get for raids. I usually use the standards buffs I normally expect in my guild's raids when doing the analysis to try to best simulate my actual situation.
The two primary attributes I look at when comparing two pieces of gear is change in personal DPS (P) and change in my average EW AP (E). Note that I look at my change in average EW AP and not change in agility since this factors in ideal uptime and is a better comparison. If both P and E are positive, then it is a clear sign that the new item is an upgrade. However, what often happens is that one of P and E is positive and the other is negative. In those cases, the rule of thumb I use involves the following equilibrium equation:
P + 2 * E = 0
For the item to be an improvement, then
P + 2 * E > 0
The 2 is derived by assuming a conservative 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS on the target (0.25 * 8 = 2). If your guild typically has more or less physical DPS in your raids, then just adjust the coefficient by +/-0.25 for each additional or less physical DPS.
Then as secondary factors in the decision I also look at changes to:
- Time to OOM (don't want to gimp my DPS uptime too much especially since I do not often get SP or shammy and do not have a raiding ret pally)
- Health (don't want to give up too much health - but this is not normally a problem since I have some to spare)
If two items are close (i.e., P + 2 * E is close to 0), I will chose the item that provides better health and/or DPS uptime; otherwise, I will chose the item that clearly provides the best overall raid DPS contribution, unless it causes too drastic a loss in health and/or Time to OOM. These decisions are sometimes a judgement call, and you just need to pick the item that you think is best for you.
Furthermore, I perform my analysis ahead of time on all perspective upgrades so that when an item drops, I already know whether I want it or not and how badly I want. Of course this analysis is performed with the "next" single upgrade in mind, so I need to periodically update it as I gain new gear and to also keep in mind the end goal of the ideal set (if possible).
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Originally Posted by Lactose
The DPS potential of a Survival Hunter (albeit in a heavily haste boosting group) is higher than I'd have thought. With the somewhat questionable pet viability on some Sunwell fights, might there actually be a benefit of going Survival over Beast Mastery in some fights, in terms of DPS?
Which leads to the question that, since Expose Weakness doesn't stack, how would a Marksmanship Hunter fare with a similar setup/macro? Would, in a pet hating fight, a Marksmanship Hunter be able to surpass a Beast Master Hunter? How would, in a pet-friendly fight (e.g. Brutallus), a Marksmanship Hunter place on damage? |
Thinking about it speccing something like 20-41-0 or swapping a few points from ferocity to get slaying talents.
You loose a bit of crit from pure SV, but your KC will hurt as much as BM hunters (or even more considering your personal AP will be higher) and steadys will do more damage too (more AP and RWS).
It lacks, as usual, group utility, and i'm sure FI is a better buff for the group even if you are lucky enough to stack 3 hunters a feral and a enh shaman. It will be harder to itemize too since you'll need pretty much the perfect gear to have enough hit and haste.
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Originally Posted by Gurth
I think MM is a great spec personal DPS wise.
Thinking about it speccing something like 20-41-0 or swapping a few points from ferocity to get slaying talents. You loose a bit of crit from pure SV, but your KC will hurt as much as BM hunters (or even more considering your personal AP will be higher) and steadys will do more damage too (more AP and RWS). It lacks, as usual, group utility, and i'm sure FI is a better buff for the group even if you are lucky enough to stack 3 hunters a feral and a enh shaman. It will be harder to itemize too since you'll need pretty much the perfect gear to have enough hit and haste. |
Well, all the top DPS happening on Brutallus right now, 2 heroisms or 1 heroism is happening with the BM rotation and attempts to find a good hasted state as much as possible. Finally, you guys are on the right track.
If Intermission posted 2300 as 0/20/41 then I would like to get some insight from him when he wakes up as to how he used his rapid fires etc to do this. Master tact could very well be more beneficial then Quick Shots. I tend to see my Quickshots go off alot when I am already hasted from Rapid Fire or DST or Heroism. This is part of the reason why I would rather have Master Tact proc under these conditions instead of Quick Shots.
I think as well when it is all said and done MM is going to be amazing with a 20/41/0 spec running the BM rotation w/ optimal passive haste and some armor pen stacking. They will have RWS, and with all the increases in AP their Master Marksman will scale even better seperating themselves from the rest interms of raw AP.
As far as Felmyst I still kept my pet up for the fight, I have my Owl spec'd 105 Arcane and Nature (dunno if it helps or not) and I just make sure to pull him out of range when encaps hits melee groups. I went BM last week for Felmyst just to test it out. I didn't make any gem changes or anything but taking an arcane pot on every pot cooldown and running viper only during air phases I did 1750ish on that fight.
If Intermission posted 2300 as 0/20/41 then I would like to get some insight from him when he wakes up as to how he used his rapid fires etc to do this. Master tact could very well be more beneficial then Quick Shots. I tend to see my Quickshots go off alot when I am already hasted from Rapid Fire or DST or Heroism. This is part of the reason why I would rather have Master Tact proc under these conditions instead of Quick Shots.
I think as well when it is all said and done MM is going to be amazing with a 20/41/0 spec running the BM rotation w/ optimal passive haste and some armor pen stacking. They will have RWS, and with all the increases in AP their Master Marksman will scale even better seperating themselves from the rest interms of raw AP.
As far as Felmyst I still kept my pet up for the fight, I have my Owl spec'd 105 Arcane and Nature (dunno if it helps or not) and I just make sure to pull him out of range when encaps hits melee groups. I went BM last week for Felmyst just to test it out. I didn't make any gem changes or anything but taking an arcane pot on every pot cooldown and running viper only during air phases I did 1750ish on that fight.
Last edited by Kurkis : Yesterday at 1:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
P + 2 * E > 0
The 2 is derived by assuming a conservative 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS on the target (0.25 * 8 = 2). If your guild typically has more or less physical DPS in your raids, then just adjust the coefficient by +/-0.25 for each additional or less physical DPS. |
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
If Intermission posted 2300 as 0/20/41 then I would like to get some insight from him when he wakes up as to how he used his rapid fires etc to do this.
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Originally Posted by osuracnaes
Why are you using 0.25 AP to DPS? I was under the impression that 14 AP = 1 DPS, which would mean you'd have 0.07 * 8 = 0.56.
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For instance, increases in our AP also increases our pet's DPS. It also increases the damage from many of our shots with our chosen rotations and weapon speed affecting the DPS increase from those shots. Also if you have talents like Survival Instincts or Master Marksman that provides you an additional percent AP bonus, the coefficient is affected. It is also affected by our crit modifier being greater than the standard amount so that damage increases from AP are additionally amplified on crits. There are many other factors as well.
But check it out for yourself.
As an example, if I use cheeky's and enter +1 AP into the hand adjust area, my DPS goes up by 0.23, which is much higher than 0.07 (1/14). I put in +100 AP, and I get a 22.25 DPS increase for a average 0.2225 coefficient. I put in +1000 AP and get +222.52 DPS for pretty much that same conversion.
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
As far as Felmyst I still kept my pet up for the fight, I have my Owl spec'd 105 Arcane and Nature (dunno if it helps or not) and I just make sure to pull him out of range when encaps hits melee groups. I went BM last week for Felmyst just to test it out. I didn't make any gem changes or anything but taking an arcane pot on every pot cooldown and running viper only during air phases I did 1750ish on that fight.
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The arcane res will help with encapsulate, the nature res sadly doesn't do much of anything - at least I've never seen a full or partial resist of the passive aura or gas nova. Arcane res helps with Kaelcgos too, so that works for me.
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Originally Posted by selece
The arcane res will help with encapsulate, the nature res sadly doesn't do much of anything - at least I've never seen a full or partial resist of the passive aura or gas nova. Arcane res helps with Kaelcgos too, so that works for me.
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I have found wearing two pieces of T5 help a lot towards keeping your pet alive for this fight as a BM, as for survival, I'm pondering trying it out 2 pieces of T5 just to see if my pet can live for more than the first phase.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
There are many posts earlier in this thread and in other threads on EJ that provide the theory for how these numbers were derived. Also, the value is a little different depending on class and spec, but they tend to range from what I understand between 0.2 and 0.3, with 0.25 being a nice average. The 14 to 1 is just the tooltip conversion and does not necessarily reflect conmplex reality or the variants in spec, gear, rotations, etc.
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Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Intermission
While the ability to scale into a 3:2 and a 1:1 rotation is great, I really dont think that's the entire aim of the macro/style of play, is it? The dps while 2:1 is good too! I dont think sacrificing dps and raid-dps stats (agility, armor pen, etc) should be done blindly, simply to stay perma-3:2 with drums.
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When non-hasted, you're stuck to a 2:1 rotation.
With DST or ImpHawk procced, you drop to a 3:2 rotation.
With DST and ImpHawk procced, or Rapid Fire, or Bloodlust, you drop to a 1:1 rotation.
And although the 2:1 rotation produces only a reasonable DPS return, you use haste procs, potions and abilities to push into the 3:2 (or 1:1) zone as much as possible.
So it seems that aside from getting a DST, this approach requires relatively minor levels of gear-based haste, correct?
I've noticed with the 7/20/34 spec that most people who are having success with the /cast/cast macro have a DST. For the unlucky and DST lacking, would 7/20/34 be useful with a moderate (50-90) amount of passive haste be beneficial enough to warrant switching to 7/20/34 from a 0/20/41?
Last edited by Lidocaine : Yesterday at 7:10 PM.
Does anyone use the Darkmoon Card: Crusade? I just picked it up to get rid of my Hourglass, not so lucky on trinket drops, Cheeky's says its a 2 or 4 dps upgrade. It gives 6ap per stack and stacks up to 20. Last night in BT I noticed from time to time that I would have 2 buffs of it at different stack numbers. Then I found at least once that I had one stacked to 17 and a second one at 3, I thought ok totals 20, and then they kept going. I opened my character panel to see if my ap was going, and it was infact continuing to add to my paper ap, the mob finally died when I was at 20 and 7. I think it was one of those blue demons at Supremus, not on multi targets, don't know for sure. It could have been caused by the 10 second timer getting very close to 0 due to moving out of the reign of fire stuff, not sure.
I'm wondering if anyone else uses and has seen this behavior?
I'm wondering if anyone else uses and has seen this behavior?
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Originally Posted by Lidocaine
I've noticed with the 7/20/34 spec that most people who are having success with the /cast/cast macro have a DST. For the unlucky and DST lacking, would 7/20/34 be useful with a moderate (50-90) amount of passive haste be beneficial enough to warrant switching to 7/20/34 from a 0/20/41?
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I think 7/20/34 is already the best, even without haste.
As for DST, you should try by all means to get it. I think that's some serious upgrade for survival hunter. Unfortunately just like me, you'll hardly convince your guildmates to run you through Gruul's lair, instead of raiding SP / BT /MH.
Sorry this turned out to be a bit of a monster post, quotes galore:
I used the BT trinket over Madness when I tried that spec/macro. We should manually plug in a rough shot cycle in Cheeky's (say, 15 seconds of 2:1, 10 seconds of 3:2, 5 seconds of 1:1). I believe Cheeky's checks the Steady Shot frequency and gives an uptime value based on that, which would be pretty accurate. Then just compare dps when changing in other trinkets. I'll do that when I get home tonight actually.
Well as 1:1.5 you dont really need to adjust to haste often, and when you do it's pretty easy. You wouldn't use a DST nor Imp Hawk, so that removes some unreliable haste. When you Rapid Fire you swap to a simple hand weaved 1:1, same with Lust. Actually you could use the /cast/cast macro when under Rapid Fire or Lust.
190-200 on that kill. I'm from Sydney, so it's around 450 normal. You can get it to 250 when changing some registry settings to get around a stupid Blizzard technical error when they setup their internal network (TCP Ack Frequency, or something). Or you can revert the regedit and get a Lowerping.com service which drops you down to around 170 (alone at Dr Boom) to ~200 in a raid.
One thing to note about the macro, is that back to back steadies will not incur a latency penalty, due to server-side queuing. When I manually try to cast two steadyshots by mashing the button, I get a quartz bar latency value of 200-300ms on the second steady. When I use the macro, it's closer to 20ms, meaning the next auto can fire faster, and the next steady can start earlier, etc etc.
The slower weapon the better for a /cast/cast. It's limited (yet only works because of) Global Cooldowns, so the shot frequency would not change with a faster weapon. My test with Legionkiller showed no increased shots over a 2 minute period. Slightly faster weapons are good for an autoshot-limited 1:1 BM rotation, but the BM and SV /cast/cast macro I believe is only GCD limited, and will spit out an autoshot (hopefully) whenever it can.
Yeah, I reckon stick with regular max personal/raid dps stats, more passive haste is a nice bonus, but we're still survival hunters after all.
But... regards to DST, I doubted whether or not I should use it. I used it for that kill simply because I was trying to copy Uday/Kurkis's posts as close as possible to get their point of view. I did a few tests with/without DST over a 2 min period each at Dr Boom and Blasted Lands, recording the amount of steadies, autos and KC's each time. I would then plug in my gear with full raid buffs/debuffs (using the appropriate trinket combo per test) into Cheekys and grab the average auto/steady/kc value from the shot rotation tab and add them up in my own little spreadsheet which would give me basic dps values. In the end my test pool was very small due to time constraints, mixed with different amounts of steady chaining in each test, and the results where within 2-3% of each other anyway. Doing that properly with more tests etc is definitely on the to-do list.
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Originally Posted by Jobby
So using a 2:1 with DST and 7/20/34, but no passive haste gear, would you rather be using Berserker's Call or the BT trinket. It seems like the BT trinket will have enough uptime to make the overall AP better, but the control offered by the Zerker for Rapid Fire and other hasted effects also seems pretty good :X
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Originally Posted by Uday
The problem with a perfect hand weave is that my ability to hand weave for 6 minutes while adjusting for haste and maintaining awareness is no where near perfect. Granted the macro isn't perfect either with it's steady chains, but it seems to work better for me. And since I've never geared for survival, I have a good amount of haste that would be wasted on a standard 1:1.5, but which lends itself quite well to a variable haste responsive approach. While it may not be the best choice for my circumstances at the moment, I am very interested to see how your hand weave does next week compared to your macro use this week.
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Originally Posted by Crowbite
What kind of lag do you play at? Is there really any rotation that is best suited to 200-350ms? I'd love to play with a 3:2 rotation but any tries at it seem to chain steadys like crazy.
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One thing to note about the macro, is that back to back steadies will not incur a latency penalty, due to server-side queuing. When I manually try to cast two steadyshots by mashing the button, I get a quartz bar latency value of 200-300ms on the second steady. When I use the macro, it's closer to 20ms, meaning the next auto can fire faster, and the next steady can start earlier, etc etc.
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Originally Posted by Tazrach
One question this raises in my mind, if we are going towards the BM rotation and heavy haste ideally with support from the 4 piece t6 bonus does that make the badge crossbow into a viable survival weapon?
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Originally Posted by Catalept
So it seems that aside from getting a DST, this approach requires relatively minor levels of gear-based haste, correct?
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But... regards to DST, I doubted whether or not I should use it. I used it for that kill simply because I was trying to copy Uday/Kurkis's posts as close as possible to get their point of view. I did a few tests with/without DST over a 2 min period each at Dr Boom and Blasted Lands, recording the amount of steadies, autos and KC's each time. I would then plug in my gear with full raid buffs/debuffs (using the appropriate trinket combo per test) into Cheekys and grab the average auto/steady/kc value from the shot rotation tab and add them up in my own little spreadsheet which would give me basic dps values. In the end my test pool was very small due to time constraints, mixed with different amounts of steady chaining in each test, and the results where within 2-3% of each other anyway. Doing that properly with more tests etc is definitely on the to-do list.
NVM on the crusade card, im an idiot, it's spell damage im getting in the other stack
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Just did Brutallus again tonight.
Group setup:
BM
BM
SV
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid
3 drummers, 1 heroism, JoW used on boss as well as CoR.
Managed a 2004 (Wow Web Stats) sustained for the kill, no passive haste gear. Spec is 7/20/34.
Macros used were:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] BongosActionButton3
/cast Steady Shot
/cast Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
with ...
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
More numbers to play with, and looking forwards to a DST or more passive haste Sunwell gear to see what I can do with it.
[ed] Added WWS link.
Group setup:
BM
BM
SV
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid
3 drummers, 1 heroism, JoW used on boss as well as CoR.
Managed a 2004 (Wow Web Stats) sustained for the kill, no passive haste gear. Spec is 7/20/34.
Macros used were:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] BongosActionButton3
/cast Steady Shot
/cast Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
with ...
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
More numbers to play with, and looking forwards to a DST or more passive haste Sunwell gear to see what I can do with it.
[ed] Added WWS link.
Last edited by selece : 04/11/08 at 12:14 AM.
Difficult to argue with the numbers you guys are putting up, but last time I went 7/20/34 I was struggling to post anything near my 20/41 figures. I've just respec'd to the 7/20/34 for Hyjal tonight though so it'll be interesting to compare. In a guild that's only downed Illidan for the first time in March (I only started playing when BC came out), we've done it every week since and now have a pair of glaives to help with Brutallus.
Expecting to get Kalecgos down this weekend, so planning for Brutallus is the major thing on my mind now. I'm sitting at 120 haste from Shivering Felspine, a Band of Devastation and Valestalker Girdle. I'm sitting at around 300ms, but using a 2:1 macro - it's constantly clipping but giving me the best figures I've seen so far, so I'm not too keen on going back to a 3:2 or 1:1.5 when the numbers just aren't there. Will try and get a WWS up for some advice later on - 4-set will be mine hopefully tonight if Archimonde is kind and doesn't drop triple Conquerer like normal, so I know I'm due some improvement on DPS from that, but I need to find another 200 DPS at the moment I think.
I'll try and get a WWS up later, but at the moment it's great reading some of the stuff in here - it's left me wondering whether I shouldn't drop a haste item though.
Expecting to get Kalecgos down this weekend, so planning for Brutallus is the major thing on my mind now. I'm sitting at 120 haste from Shivering Felspine, a Band of Devastation and Valestalker Girdle. I'm sitting at around 300ms, but using a 2:1 macro - it's constantly clipping but giving me the best figures I've seen so far, so I'm not too keen on going back to a 3:2 or 1:1.5 when the numbers just aren't there. Will try and get a WWS up for some advice later on - 4-set will be mine hopefully tonight if Archimonde is kind and doesn't drop triple Conquerer like normal, so I know I'm due some improvement on DPS from that, but I need to find another 200 DPS at the moment I think.
I'll try and get a WWS up later, but at the moment it's great reading some of the stuff in here - it's left me wondering whether I shouldn't drop a haste item though.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
But... regards to DST, I doubted whether or not I should use it. I used it for that kill simply because I was trying to copy Uday/Kurkis's posts as close as possible to get their point of view. I did a few tests with/without DST over a 2 min period each at Dr Boom and Blasted Lands, recording the amount of steadies, autos and KC's each time. I would then plug in my gear with full raid buffs/debuffs (using the appropriate trinket combo per test) into Cheekys and grab the average auto/steady/kc value from the shot rotation tab and add them up in my own little spreadsheet which would give me basic dps values. In the end my test pool was very small due to time constraints, mixed with different amounts of steady chaining in each test, and the results where within 2-3% of each other anyway. Doing that properly with more tests etc is definitely on the to-do list.
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WWS Loading... (Rylai)
Wow Web Stats (Intermission)
... the only MAJOR differences I can see in our gear are the DST and Felspine.
Comparing the number of shots fired, and lengths of the fights:
Rylai: 100 steady / 62 auto (5:47)
Intermission: 111 steady /86 auto (5:56)
... there's only a 9 second difference. So let's assume Inter was in 1:1 for the entire 9 second difference, that would mean he'd get about 9 autos and 9 steadies extra. The steadies are about right, but the autos are way out there which I can only account for via the DST.
In basically every other aspect our parses are similar. Our pets are more or less interchangeable, and judging by average shot damage, our raid debuffs are about the same too. Inter has 13 "Haste" procs recorded, so even assuming 3 haste potions taken (yes, I know it doesn't line up with the fight length), that's ~10 procs of the DST.
Now the thing it comes down to for me in trying to account for a ~300 DPS difference is that Inter had 2 BLs, and I had 1 Heroism. What's a DST actually worth? What's a heroism actually worth? What's the Felspine worth? If I had a 75% drum uptime due to 3 LWs in the group, how much does that make up for?
I'm assuming the armory gear that Intermission is in is the gear he wore for Brutallus. My gear can also be seen in armory, and should be accurate for the 2004 parse.
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Originally Posted by selece
Rylai: 100 steady / 62 auto (5:47)
Intermission: 111 steady /86 auto (5:56) |
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Just did Brutallus again tonight. Group setup: BM BM SV Resto Shaman Feral Druid 3 drummers, 1 heroism, JoW used on boss as well as CoR. Managed a 2004 (Wow Web Stats) sustained for the kill, no passive haste gear. Spec is 7/20/34. Macros used were: #showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] BongosActionButton3 /cast Steady Shot /cast Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() with ... /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot More numbers to play with, and looking forwards to a DST or more passive haste Sunwell gear to see what I can do with it. [ed] Added WWS link. |
Re: selece/Rylai,
Another reason I can think of is chaining. If you don't go manual for a split second when he does Meteor Slash you end up doing a triple+ chain. As I said, I had a lot of practise with tank deaths :P I may have been able to reduce chaining a bit more just from that, which would equate to more autoshots in my WWS. I still had the typical random chaning out of the blue, eh.
As I said before in my other post, I think its worth doing a fair few tests with/without DST, adding up shot count with appropriate gear to work out exact dps from each in a raid environment.
Another reason I can think of is chaining. If you don't go manual for a split second when he does Meteor Slash you end up doing a triple+ chain. As I said, I had a lot of practise with tank deaths :P I may have been able to reduce chaining a bit more just from that, which would equate to more autoshots in my WWS. I still had the typical random chaning out of the blue, eh.
As I said before in my other post, I think its worth doing a fair few tests with/without DST, adding up shot count with appropriate gear to work out exact dps from each in a raid environment.
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Originally Posted by Gaius
I don't really understand this. I have been trying out a variation of this survival spec 7/21/33 and I cant seem to get the dps out put you guys are getting. I have been using a 1:1 steady shot macro while manually weaving in arcane shot and multishot but can't seem to get past 1100 dps on Dr.Boom, and in raids I am always around 1k-1.4k dps. I know I can pump out more I just really dont know how to. I was looking at using the 3:2 macro but it just keeps pushing autoshot back and ends up doing less dps than if i just used my regular 1:1.5 macro, and having looked at the macro you use, how do you use 2 different macros?
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I have not had a chance to raid since I went 7/21/33 but I am getting 1000-1100 DPS on Dr. Boom as well. I use the 2:1 rotation, I have tried hand weaving a 1/1.5 and a 1/1.5 macro but they turn up with less DPS for me while costing mroe mana. I was wondering what you guys that are pushing 2K+ DPS are doing on Dr. Boom w/o any buffs aside from hawk and mana regen.
I tested out the Kurkis setup (7/20/34 and dps macro calling pet macro) on Brutallus yesterday. I was able to reach as high as 1724dps with no passive haste at all and keeping scorpid sting up. A number i previously would have thought impossible to reach. The group setup was feral-warlock-warlock-bm-sv with 1 lust swapped in where i most of the time would only benefit from FI due to range issues to the feral. No haste potions was used either.
I'm more than impressed =)
Edit:
Dr. Boom tests gave me 1060-1165dps depending on procs and crit streaks.
I'm more than impressed =)
Edit:
Dr. Boom tests gave me 1060-1165dps depending on procs and crit streaks.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
@ Rylai. The shot count you have quoted below doesn't include crits, you have to open up the shots to get the total, annoyingly.
Also adding Kurkis's and lesue's logs for more shot count info WWS Loading... Wow Web Stats the total shot counts look like this:-
Inters Count is - (361 Total) 214 SS to 147 Autos over 5'56 secs - 2309 DPS
Rylai's Count is - (321 Total) 187 SS to 134 Autos over 5'47 secs - 2004 DPS
Kurkis's Count is - (340 Total) 204 SS to 136 Autos over 5'46 secs - 2065 DPS
Lesue's Count is - (351 Total) 210 SS to 141 Autos over 6'00 secs - 2100 DPS
So yeah on the face of it and by comparing Kurkis's log you lost a couple of Autos for sure but 13 Steadys were lost presumably due to chaining.
Now just for the hell of it and being slightly mischevious, here are a couple of shot counts using 1:1:5 Hand Weave
Inters Count is - (322 Total) 129 SS, 142 Autos, 26 Multis and 25 Arcanes over 6'07 secs - 1947 DPS
Gonktarget's Count is (306 Total) 127 SS, 135 Autos, 18 Multis and 26 Arcanes over 5'40 secs - 1990 DPS
This is indeed proving to be as originally expected, ie /cast /cast is the way to go with haste rotations still to be worked out in detail. Unless of course Intermission can prove us all wrong next week with another Hand Weave 1:1:5 attempt. Can't wait for the result.
Considering all 4 are using more or less optimum gear sets (prior to adding loads of SW items) what is really interesting is how Intermission is getting circa 100 damage per every shot fired than the other guys.... answers on a postcard.
Inters damage per shot - 2226.03
Rylai's damage per shot - 2148.05
Kurkis's damage per shot - 2071.75
Lesue's damage per shot - 2124.07
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Originally Posted by selece
Comparing your 2300 parse to my 2004:
WWS Loading... (Rylai) Wow Web Stats (Intermission) ... the only MAJOR differences I can see in our gear are the DST and Felspine. Comparing the number of shots fired, and lengths of the fights: Rylai: 100 steady / 62 auto (5:47) Intermission: 111 steady /86 auto (5:56) |
Inters Count is - (361 Total) 214 SS to 147 Autos over 5'56 secs - 2309 DPS
Rylai's Count is - (321 Total) 187 SS to 134 Autos over 5'47 secs - 2004 DPS
Kurkis's Count is - (340 Total) 204 SS to 136 Autos over 5'46 secs - 2065 DPS
Lesue's Count is - (351 Total) 210 SS to 141 Autos over 6'00 secs - 2100 DPS
So yeah on the face of it and by comparing Kurkis's log you lost a couple of Autos for sure but 13 Steadys were lost presumably due to chaining.
Now just for the hell of it and being slightly mischevious, here are a couple of shot counts using 1:1:5 Hand Weave
Inters Count is - (322 Total) 129 SS, 142 Autos, 26 Multis and 25 Arcanes over 6'07 secs - 1947 DPS
Gonktarget's Count is (306 Total) 127 SS, 135 Autos, 18 Multis and 26 Arcanes over 5'40 secs - 1990 DPS
This is indeed proving to be as originally expected, ie /cast /cast is the way to go with haste rotations still to be worked out in detail. Unless of course Intermission can prove us all wrong next week with another Hand Weave 1:1:5 attempt. Can't wait for the result.
Considering all 4 are using more or less optimum gear sets (prior to adding loads of SW items) what is really interesting is how Intermission is getting circa 100 damage per every shot fired than the other guys.... answers on a postcard.
Inters damage per shot - 2226.03
Rylai's damage per shot - 2148.05
Kurkis's damage per shot - 2071.75
Lesue's damage per shot - 2124.07
Last edited by Tiberium : 04/11/08 at 6:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
@ Rylai. The shot count you have quoted below doesn't include crits, you have to open up the shots to get the total, annoyingly.
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Adding my own testing results; 1734dps with 7/21/33 and the two part /cast /cast macro, no group buffs, downed one haste pot tho. Got some horrible chaining when getting hit by slash, maybe some hand weaving at that point would help.
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Originally Posted by Gaius
I don't really understand this. I have been trying out a variation of this survival spec 7/21/33 and I cant seem to get the dps out put you guys are getting. I have been using a 1:1 steady shot macro while manually weaving in arcane shot and multishot but can't seem to get past 1100 dps on Dr.Boom, and in raids I am always around 1k-1.4k dps. I know I can pump out more I just really dont know how to. I was looking at using the 3:2 macro but it just keeps pushing autoshot back and ends up doing less dps than if i just used my regular 1:1.5 macro, and having looked at the macro you use, how do you use 2 different macros?
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It's pretty much a must to make it at all worthwhile.
Oh, and my bad on the shot counting thing, it's late and the brain doesn't like being used after 10pm.
I've had some success with the /cast /cast macro. I pulled 1900 on a Brut kill last night but there is a lot of room for improvement. Group was BM/BM/SV/Resto Shaman/Feral.
Hunters - WWS
231 Steadies
71 Autos
I was trying to run a macro with KC but I can't get one to work that doesn't end up chaining steadies.
Zakazul crushed it yesterday, 2500 as BM.
Hunters - WWS
231 Steadies
71 Autos
I was trying to run a macro with KC but I can't get one to work that doesn't end up chaining steadies.
Zakazul crushed it yesterday, 2500 as BM.
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Originally Posted by selece
You also lack 4pc T6 which most of us are running with that are using this method.
It's pretty much a must to make it at all worthwhile. Oh, and my bad on the shot counting thing, it's late and the brain doesn't like being used after 10pm. |
I was wondering though is there any way that I could improve my dps over using a 1:1.5 macro with a 0/28/33 or 0/24/37 spec?
Looking at WWS for myself and others using 7/20/34, I am seeing Quick Shots proc about once a minute (more or less). With the increase in number of Steadies fired and the decrease in Autos, what "potential" loss in QS procs do you all think is happening?
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Originally Posted by binky
Looking at WWS for myself and others using 7/20/34, I am seeing Quick Shots proc about once a minute (more or less). With the increase in number of Steadies fired and the decrease in Autos, what "potential" loss in QS procs do you all think is happening?
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what the macro 3:2 ? steady,steady,auto,steady,steady,auto.......?
I'm sure this has been answered before, but is a /castsequence macro viable with 60ms, or is it gonna decrease my DPS by alot?
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Originally Posted by Gaius
Ah thank you, I didnt realize that the set bonus was the primary reason for using the passive haste like dst and imp Hawk.
I was wondering though is there any way that I could improve my dps over using a 1:1.5 macro with a 0/28/33 or 0/24/37 spec? |
1,1k - 1,4k dps is fine for your gear level. Going over means only that your raid kill the boss faster and that the amount of time you are boosted by something during the kill is higher. 7-21-33 is only for 4 t6 hunters imo, if you are in a lower bracket i suggest you to keep 28-33 or 20-41 and 1:1.5 switching to the /cast /cast macro for heroism and rapid fire times.
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Considering all 4 are using more or less optimum gear sets (prior to adding loads of SW items) what is really interesting is how Intermission is getting circa 100 damage per every shot fired than the other guys.... answers on a postcard.
Inters damage per shot - 2226.03 Rylai's damage per shot - 2148.05 Kurkis's damage per shot - 2071.75 Lesue's damage per shot - 2124.07 |
Rylai:
Steady - 1164 average / 3070 max
Auto - 1122 average / 3000 max
Intermission:
Steady - 1165 average / 3080 max
Auto - 1117 average / 3052 max
... I don't see a whole lot of difference. Where are those numbers coming from?
<insert feeble whine for a DST here>
Maybe because I throw in multi/arcane when popping up from FD and when refreshing HM, and the aimed/multi/arcane on the pull. (although on the kill we didnt have 100% JoW uptime, so I think I only multi/arcaned on the pull).
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Does anyone use the Darkmoon Card: Crusade? I just picked it up to get rid of my Hourglass, not so lucky on trinket drops, Cheeky's says its a 2 or 4 dps upgrade. It gives 6ap per stack and stacks up to 20. Last night in BT I noticed from time to time that I would have 2 buffs of it at different stack numbers. Then I found at least once that I had one stacked to 17 and a second one at 3, I thought ok totals 20, and then they kept going. I opened my character panel to see if my ap was going, and it was infact continuing to add to my paper ap, the mob finally died when I was at 20 and 7. I think it was one of those blue demons at Supremus, not on multi targets, don't know for sure. It could have been caused by the 10 second timer getting very close to 0 due to moving out of the reign of fire stuff, not sure.
I'm wondering if anyone else uses and has seen this behavior? |
The reason you are getting 2 lots of buffs from [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] is because the trinket gives two different buffs depending on whether you are a caster or a physical damage doer. Usually Hunters are doing physical but there are a few of our skills and shots that are counted as spells. So, when you are hitting the mob with Auto Shot, Multi or Steady you are getting the 6ap buff stack and then when you use Arcane Shot or a sting you are getting the 8spell damage buff stack, and therefore having 2 stacks of the buff with different numbers.
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Originally Posted by selece
This is interesting to me, but comparing purely steady/auto average damage:
Rylai: Steady - 1164 average / 3070 max Auto - 1122 average / 3000 max Intermission: Steady - 1165 average / 3080 max Auto - 1117 average / 3052 max ... I don't see a whole lot of difference. Where are those numbers coming from? <insert feeble whine for a DST here> |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
He has 3 FIs and enhanced totems plus Blood Fury. That easily accounts for at least 90% of the difference in damage.
edit: Command and pet FIs account for the rest. Didn't realize pet dmg was taken into account in his calculation.
edit: Command and pet FIs account for the rest. Didn't realize pet dmg was taken into account in his calculation.
Last edited by qu- : 04/12/08 at 4:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by selece
Rylai: Steady - 1164 average / 3070 max Auto - 1122 average / 3000 max Intermission: Steady - 1165 average / 3080 max Auto - 1117 average / 3052 max ... I don't see a whole lot of difference. Where are those numbers coming from? <insert feeble whine for a DST here> |
Total Damage/No of shots = 2148.05
The obvious beauty of this stat is it takes account of every conceivable bit of damage you do. Includes Pet damage, Kill commands, Lightning Breaths, Buffs Debuffs, Procs, Drums, Haste passive and or procced, Group Composition, Racials, etc etc. Well you get the picture.
In effect it shows the absolute damage of the hunter on a given fight irrespective of time. Which is sort of why I would love to know what "forced" haste rotations Inter is using.
Just an input to the haste discussion.
What do you think of using the [Thundering Skyfire Diamond] instead of the regulary [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]? You lose 12 agi and the crit bonus, but it should help you maintain a hasted state... So the 3atkpwr loss in EW bonus might be overwon by personal dps?
I havent tried it, Im still a 4pT5 hunter but it might be worth considering if speccing the 7/20/34, or?
What do you think of using the [Thundering Skyfire Diamond] instead of the regulary [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]? You lose 12 agi and the crit bonus, but it should help you maintain a hasted state... So the 3atkpwr loss in EW bonus might be overwon by personal dps?
I havent tried it, Im still a 4pT5 hunter but it might be worth considering if speccing the 7/20/34, or?
When you're running with a 50% crit rate in raids and dropping number well into the mid 2Ks on every crit, dropping 3% crit dmg really doesn't seem like a smart idea. Sure the extra haste proc if it went off enough would be nice, but haste procs go off as much when you don't need them to as when you do so you don't get the full benefit of them, which is also a reason I'm not much of a fan of 7/20/34. With crit dmg you're always getting the benefit of the effect the entire fight on every shot.
Not to mention you're actually losing about 15 agi once you add in BoK and LR. Not really something that excites me since even after farming Illidan for 6 months I've still not been able to convince my lazy guild mates to go back and do KT for my neck/cloak.
Not to mention you're actually losing about 15 agi once you add in BoK and LR. Not really something that excites me since even after farming Illidan for 6 months I've still not been able to convince my lazy guild mates to go back and do KT for my neck/cloak.
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Originally Posted by Aern
Not really something that excites me since even after farming Illidan for 6 months I've still not been able to convince my lazy guild mates to go back and do KT for my neck/cloak.
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I havee been fortunate to have gotten both my neck and cloak from KT, but recently I've switched to Cloak of Fiends and I like the results so far. As far as Necklace of the deep is concerned, I personally don't think that the increase in agi is worth the AP loss.
Yeah I'm currently running cloak of fiends and will be picking up the next clutch that drops once i grab a GS belt to offset the hit loss (switched to Choker of Vile Intent once I got Felspine). I've also tested out the Necklace of the Deep with 2 LRs and I'm really not interested in dropping 2 spinels in it considering the AP you lose out on. Hopefully I'll have some more haste gear pretty soon and I'll be able to let yall know what type of numbers I'm putting up, no Hard Khorium Band pattern on the server makes me kinda sad though, even with 4 Felmyst killing guilds. /sigh @ drop rates on these patterns.
I use my Kael Neck when I'm solo or in 5 mans, but Necklace of the Deep (+2 spinels) all the way for any single target dps raiding boss*. It's a 4 dps loss for me, with a gain of 18 agi which equates to roughly 10 raid-dps gain in my raids. Besides, I personally love walking around org with full 'best in game' gear (pre sunwell anyway) with a level 65 blue neck being one of them.
*eg Brutallus, Felmyst, Illidan, Council, Souls, Teron, Bloodboil, etc etc.
*eg Brutallus, Felmyst, Illidan, Council, Souls, Teron, Bloodboil, etc etc.
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Originally Posted by Noryth
plz, any post the macro for 3:2?
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Anyway here it is again FYI
MACRO 1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] BT3Button72
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
MACRO 2:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Take the button for MACRO 1, place it somewhere you can mash it endlessly.
Take the button for MACRO 2, and place it on the last button space (right hand side) of Action Bar 6. If you have your action bars expanded out, collapse them, go to the 6th tab of buttons, and place it in the last spot. If you have an addon or mod that changes your buttons, turn it off, place the macro in the proper place and then reload your addon.
Replace the BT3 line with whatever bar mod you use, this is for Bartender.
Now I got that (those) macro's working. Dont think anyone mentioned about addon specific commands before for action bars like BT3ButtonX. Flying to Blasted Lands to see how badly this clips.
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Originally Posted by Osse
Now I got that (those) macro's working. Dont think anyone mentioned about addon specific commands before for action bars like BT3ButtonX. Flying to Blasted Lands to see how badly this clips.
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Interested to see the results as so far I'm doing really well as Survival, only the shot clipping bugs me out.
If you're using Bartender, there is an option to turn on the button "names" that will allow you to see what each buttons true name is, allowing you to reference it.
Use
- to get the name of the hotbarbutton you want. Do note that the one originally posted on page 63 has a syntax error (colon instead of semicolon after GetMouseFocus()) in it which is probably why many haven't gotten it to work.
Edit:
Might as well add that you need to hover your mouse over the desired button position when running this one (as stated on page 63). Oh, and your default chat channel needs to be something you can see. F.ex. if you have just been in a raid speaking in raid chat, and you attempt this while not being in one, well, it will show you nothing. Just do f.ex. a /say to switch before running it. If in doubt, go read page 63 =)
/run local f = GetMouseFocus(); if f then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME: AddMessage(f:GetName()) end
Edit:
Might as well add that you need to hover your mouse over the desired button position when running this one (as stated on page 63). Oh, and your default chat channel needs to be something you can see. F.ex. if you have just been in a raid speaking in raid chat, and you attempt this while not being in one, well, it will show you nothing. Just do f.ex. a /say to switch before running it. If in doubt, go read page 63 =)
So far I've gathered:
With 3.0 speed, 20-25ms, 25 clicks per second macro and 53 passive haste I seem to get 2.13:1 as average. That's a clip every 55 seconds for me I think. In a raid situation with the clips included it should be 30-40 dps increase. I guess it's time to get back to mostly farm fel mana pots as haste ones will only be used with SP group and when there's a retri pala in raid now. :/
With 3.0 speed, 20-25ms, 25 clicks per second macro and 53 passive haste I seem to get 2.13:1 as average. That's a clip every 55 seconds for me I think. In a raid situation with the clips included it should be 30-40 dps increase. I guess it's time to get back to mostly farm fel mana pots as haste ones will only be used with SP group and when there's a retri pala in raid now. :/
I've found with 3.0 speed, 40-60ms and manual clicks (no G15) of around 3-6/sec and no passive haste my ratios have varied from 1.8:1 to 2.4:1.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Ondskaben pointed me towards this thread the other day, and i thought this was the right time to finally mess about and get myself registered. Using Kurkis's rotation macro has dramasticly improved my DPS.
Im usually a 20/41 survival hunter (with readiness and no TOTH/Efficiency, if you wonder), and now i tried to spec an odd 7/20/34 spec. I was very sceptical but decided to test it on a raid.
I started on Teron, where i was doing 1464 DPS. That try i did not have a bloodlust, which made my DPS from today hard to judge. In any case, i popped a DPS of 1895. Bloodlust was the only real difference, although you've got to keep in mind that when i had my 20/41 spec i would use double rapid fires with readiness, so the extra one or two rapid fires (depending on the length of the fight) might make up for the bloodlust altogether. Long story short, my DPS was increased by 431 with the new supermacro. Oh, last Teron i was BM specced just for the fun of it, and i did 1972 damage in a mostly similar group. Just fun to see i was only 77 DPS away from what i can do as BM, while buffing expose weakness, obviously
Then we went to Sunwell and had our second Brutallus kill. On the first one, i had a DPS of 1498, which i thought was pretty sweet for a survival hunter. Today, using the new system, getting one bloodlust, 2 rapid fires, some drums that i didn't keep track of and however many haste potions i could chug down i had a DPS of.. dundundundun: 1849. During that fight, i kept up scorpid sting and hunters mark constantly.
I might probably have gotten a few more drums than last time, but a few drums here and there is not going to make up for 350 DPS. I should mention that i have no haste gear at all at the moment, but im thinking that i can tweak it a little bit using Felspine and Choker of Whateveritscalled from Brutallus which should hopefully give me enough haste to stop clipping *some* of the auto shots. Also, im still using hourglass of the unraveler - Madness trinket will help on the 2%ish miss i have (yeah, i know) and we would see an even bigger DPS increase. It can only go up from here.
Sure, i didn't have to move for a burn, but still, its a rather signifigant increase.
EDIT: WWS stats show a final DPS of 1865 on Brutallus. Here it is, for good messure: WWS Loading...
Im usually a 20/41 survival hunter (with readiness and no TOTH/Efficiency, if you wonder), and now i tried to spec an odd 7/20/34 spec. I was very sceptical but decided to test it on a raid.
I started on Teron, where i was doing 1464 DPS. That try i did not have a bloodlust, which made my DPS from today hard to judge. In any case, i popped a DPS of 1895. Bloodlust was the only real difference, although you've got to keep in mind that when i had my 20/41 spec i would use double rapid fires with readiness, so the extra one or two rapid fires (depending on the length of the fight) might make up for the bloodlust altogether. Long story short, my DPS was increased by 431 with the new supermacro. Oh, last Teron i was BM specced just for the fun of it, and i did 1972 damage in a mostly similar group. Just fun to see i was only 77 DPS away from what i can do as BM, while buffing expose weakness, obviously
Then we went to Sunwell and had our second Brutallus kill. On the first one, i had a DPS of 1498, which i thought was pretty sweet for a survival hunter. Today, using the new system, getting one bloodlust, 2 rapid fires, some drums that i didn't keep track of and however many haste potions i could chug down i had a DPS of.. dundundundun: 1849. During that fight, i kept up scorpid sting and hunters mark constantly.
I might probably have gotten a few more drums than last time, but a few drums here and there is not going to make up for 350 DPS. I should mention that i have no haste gear at all at the moment, but im thinking that i can tweak it a little bit using Felspine and Choker of Whateveritscalled from Brutallus which should hopefully give me enough haste to stop clipping *some* of the auto shots. Also, im still using hourglass of the unraveler - Madness trinket will help on the 2%ish miss i have (yeah, i know) and we would see an even bigger DPS increase. It can only go up from here.
Sure, i didn't have to move for a burn, but still, its a rather signifigant increase.
EDIT: WWS stats show a final DPS of 1865 on Brutallus. Here it is, for good messure: WWS Loading...
Last edited by Aym : Today at 4:41 AM.
So, I'm a fucking tool and got capped till the 17th, so no 1:1.5 comparison test on Brutallus from me this week
Unless I convince the guild to raid BT/Hyjal before Sunwell this week!
Unless I convince the guild to raid BT/Hyjal before Sunwell this week!
Maybe you guys can help, after browsing the forums and reading about new macros and KC and I am having crazy problems with chaining steadys on Brut. Sometimes I hit 4 in a row before and auto will go off . I've tried all of the different macros with no results. I have around 150ms(lol) and do not have a g15 or g11. Anyone have any ideas?
EDIT: Yea armory is messed up my other trinket is DST
EDIT: Yea armory is messed up my other trinket is DST
Last edited by Cathzilla : Yesterday at 9:02 PM.
double post
Last edited by Intermission : Yesterday at 9:36 PM.
Make sure you stop spamming the macro when he casts Slash on you, you take the damage and steady knockback, then let the auto go, then start the cycle again. Not waiting a bit after a Slash pushback will cause 3+ steadies I found. An even better option is to stop the macro when he casts Slash and pump out a Multi and Arcane then go back to steady/auto, mana permitting.
If it's happening outside the Steadyshot pushback times, then I'm not sure. It just happens sometimes. Network/server jitters maybe? Dunno. Your latency doesnt rule out the macro, mine worked decently with 180-200ms. It may depend on your passive haste or the method you use KC.
edit: wrong wws link, fixed it.
If it's happening outside the Steadyshot pushback times, then I'm not sure. It just happens sometimes. Network/server jitters maybe? Dunno. Your latency doesnt rule out the macro, mine worked decently with 180-200ms. It may depend on your passive haste or the method you use KC.
edit: wrong wws link, fixed it.
Last edited by Intermission : Yesterday at 9:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Make sure you stop spamming the macro when he casts Slash on you, you take the damage and steady knockback, then let the auto go, then start the cycle again. Not waiting a bit after a Slash pushback will cause 3+ steadies I found. An even better option is to stop the macro when he casts Slash and pump out a Multi and Arcane then go back to steady/auto, mana permitting.
If it's happening outside the Steadyshot pushback times, then I'm not sure. It just happens sometimes. Network/server jitters maybe? Dunno. Your latency doesnt rule out the macro, mine worked decently with 180-200ms. It may depend on your passive haste or the method you use KC. |
After bashing some numbers around, I can't seem find a way to get Quick Shots to drop a 3.0 (or even 2.8) speed weapon to a 3:2 rotation without stacking large amounts of passive haste. Unless I'm missing something important, the shot rotation timing graphs for a 3.0 weapon with QS and quiver, vs. a 2.8 weapon with SS and quiver (plus a little passive haste), would look as follows:
So... either I'm missing something, or taking Imp.AotH is not particularly useful...
So... either I'm missing something, or taking Imp.AotH is not particularly useful...
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Make sure you stop spamming the macro when he casts Slash on you, you take the damage and steady knockback, then let the auto go, then start the cycle again. Not waiting a bit after a Slash pushback will cause 3+ steadies I found. An even better option is to stop the macro when he casts Slash and pump out a Multi and Arcane then go back to steady/auto, mana permitting.
If it's happening outside the Steadyshot pushback times, then I'm not sure. It just happens sometimes. Network/server jitters maybe? Dunno. Your latency doesnt rule out the macro, mine worked decently with 180-200ms. It may depend on your passive haste or the method you use KC. edit: wrong wws link, fixed it. |
Oke.
First of hi to you all, im a new survival hunter (specced to it a few days agon from BM)
i used to do a nice and easy shot rotation, but im starting to get trouble with it. Reading this post i got a bit confused so i ahd some questions.
Asuming you guys know the macro used for BM shot rotation i was wondering two things.
Is there a simular way of a macro for Survival hunters (here i presume that a survival hunter wants to weave in arcane and multy shots) were you cna get the timing between your shots almost perfect from "spamming"1 button.
from what point do you keep stacking Agility and ignore beter DPS items and vise versa.
last question. I dont really get the terms 3:2 and 1:2. I always thought 1:2 was a steady shot/autoshot rotation, but no clue for the 3:2.
First of hi to you all, im a new survival hunter (specced to it a few days agon from BM)
i used to do a nice and easy shot rotation, but im starting to get trouble with it. Reading this post i got a bit confused so i ahd some questions.
Asuming you guys know the macro used for BM shot rotation i was wondering two things.
Is there a simular way of a macro for Survival hunters (here i presume that a survival hunter wants to weave in arcane and multy shots) were you cna get the timing between your shots almost perfect from "spamming"1 button.
from what point do you keep stacking Agility and ignore beter DPS items and vise versa.
last question. I dont really get the terms 3:2 and 1:2. I always thought 1:2 was a steady shot/autoshot rotation, but no clue for the 3:2.
Hi,
Just a few quick(hopefully) questions.
Im currently geared through KZ with chances at SSC loot now and I thinking about testing the 7/20/34 build with the dual macro setup.
Here is my raiding gear Diasx
I know the belt is low, but as I was planning on buying the war feather loop, the 2.4 badges were announced and I have saved for the crossbow. And I never got the Wolfslayer due to never seeing it drop.
So, here is my question. Is the 7/20/34 a viable spec currently for me DPS-wise or am I better using the 41/20 BM spec until I obtain haste gear? Is the 7/20/34 spec dependent on haste gear or does it function ok with no clipping without haste?
Just a few quick(hopefully) questions.
Im currently geared through KZ with chances at SSC loot now and I thinking about testing the 7/20/34 build with the dual macro setup.
Here is my raiding gear Diasx
I know the belt is low, but as I was planning on buying the war feather loop, the 2.4 badges were announced and I have saved for the crossbow. And I never got the Wolfslayer due to never seeing it drop.
So, here is my question. Is the 7/20/34 a viable spec currently for me DPS-wise or am I better using the 41/20 BM spec until I obtain haste gear? Is the 7/20/34 spec dependent on haste gear or does it function ok with no clipping without haste?
You should be specced 41/20/0 with your gear. Survival to begin with is more gear dependent than what you have, and the 7/20/34 build is far more gear dependent than that. Stick with BM until you have 700ish unbuffed/unspecced agility, and stick with a standard survival build after that until you have 4 piece t6 and some passive haste, and maybe a dst.
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Originally Posted by Tokrah
You should be specced 41/20/0 with your gear. Survival to begin with is more gear dependent than what you have, and the 7/20/34 build is far more gear dependent than that. Stick with BM until you have 700ish unbuffed/unspecced agility, and stick with a standard survival build after that until you have 4 piece t6 and some passive haste, and maybe a dst.
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Very good response and gives me an idea of what I'm shooting for
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Originally Posted by Evanescent
I was also wondering what trinkets people run in this spec. Mine are currently the low point on my gear (no longer running anything besides BT and SW) and i was wondering if the Ashtongue Talisman would trump either the hourglass or the brooch since steady shot is the cornerstone of this rotation, even more so than a typical BM rotation. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Evanescent
I'd like to add that i don't think the requirements are as severe to switching to the 7/20/34 spec as Tokrah suggests. I only have 2 piece t6, and just Embrace of the Phoenix for haste and have seen massive improvements in my personal dps since switching to 7/20/34.
I was also wondering what trinkets people run in this spec. Mine are currently the low point on my gear (no longer running anything besides BT and SW) and i was wondering if the Ashtongue Talisman would trump either the hourglass or the brooch since steady shot is the cornerstone of this rotation, even more so than a typical BM rotation. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted by Diasx
Im currently geared through KZ with chances at SSC loot now and I thinking about testing the 7/20/34 build with the dual macro setup.
Here is my raiding gear Diasx I know the belt is low, but as I was planning on buying the war feather loop, the 2.4 badges were announced and I have saved for the crossbow. And I never got the Wolfslayer due to never seeing it drop. So, here is my question. Is the 7/20/34 a viable spec currently for me DPS-wise or am I better using the 41/20 BM spec until I obtain haste gear? Is the 7/20/34 spec dependent on haste gear or does it function ok with no clipping without haste? |
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Originally Posted by Tokrah
You should be specced 41/20/0 with your gear. Survival to begin with is more gear dependent than what you have, and the 7/20/34 build is far more gear dependent than that. Stick with BM until you have 700ish unbuffed/unspecced agility, and stick with a standard survival build after that until you have 4 piece t6 and some passive haste, and maybe a dst.
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Tokrah's recommendation of needing 700 agi unbuffed for Survival is a little harsh for someone just entering SSC. It is true that Survival hunting is much more gear dependent. However, I think you have plenty of agility with LR for being Survival in SSC if your guild currently does not have a Survival hunter.
Your 715 agility unbuffed combined with 20 agi buff food, a major agility elixer, and Blessing of Kings, gets you to 856 agility, which provides 214 AP boost to the physical DPS in your raid. Due to the better gear available via ZA, badges, arena, PvP, etc. than when I entered SSC, you have a lot more agility than what I had entering SSC, and I did fine.
Hence, if your guild doesn't have a Survival hunter and you want to be Survival hunter, I encourage you to remain so and to start to build better gear and learn the role better. Plus, it shouldn't take you too much to gain some better Survival gear with all the options out there.
If you want to be a more effective Survival hunter, I would like to make the following suggestions:
1) Stay away from the IAotH build for now as Tokrah suggested. That is not really only effective for end game Survival hunters with the 4 set T6 bonus that are using a steady-auto rotation, although others can get it to work out well too. With where you are in the game, you should be using either a full 0/20/41 Survival build, a hybrid MM/Surv build like 0/28/33, or somewhere in between depending on what works best for your guild and your situation. I personally suggest 0/20/41 with Readiness for its utility, but try some of them out for yourself.
2) To have effective DPS at your gear level, do not use the BM auto-steady rotations (2:1, 3:2, 1:1) since you do not have the attack speed to make it the best rotation for you. Instead, I suggest using a 1:1.5 rotation when you do not have to worry about CC and a 1:1.3 when you do. She the rotation thread or search this thread if you do not know what those rotations are.
3) Also to be effective at your gear level, I suggest avoiding haste gear for the most part. I little bit of passive haste can be good to tighten up your rotation depending on your weapon speed, but more than that will hurt your rotation until you get enough haste gear (well over 300 haste rating) to be able to effectively do an auto-steady rotation. Getting that much haste now will cost you a lot of valuable item level points in other stats. I suggest focusing on getting your agility and overall DPS up without worrying about haste for now.
4) Since you are an engineer, I suggest looking into making the Deathblow versions of your helm instead, although they are leather. Another option is the season 3 arena helm. I still wear that about half way into MH/BT. The rest of your gear is pretty good for entering SSC, with your belt and 2nd trinket being the only items lagging behind. Suggest running BM a lot if you can to get the Hourglass to replace the green trinket.
5) As Survival spec, you only need 95 hit rating. So feel free to drop about 50 HR in favor of items that may give you more agility and DPS.
Well, whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck!
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
First Is there a simular way of a macro for Survival hunters (here i presume that a survival hunter wants to weave in arcane and multy shots) were you cna get the timing between your shots almost perfect from "spamming"1 button.
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If you are an end game survival hunter, then you can pretty much spam the same macro you did for BM. I had trouble viewing your character sheet on the armory, but it appeared that you are endgame. You can ignore the rest if you want, but I included it for other that may not be end game and who may have similar questions.
However, if you are not end game yet, you should probably be using a 1:1.5 rotation. Please be aware that I do not think that there is any perfect "spamming" 1 button for the 1:1.5. There are several reasons for this, with the main being that it is a rotation with a lot of complex factors affecting it, such as your weapon speed, your other gear, your latency, etc. In addition, unless you are doing a IAS 1:1.5, then you need a second macro to spam to avoid breaking CC.
In general, the 1:1.5 macros fall into 2 general categories from my observations:
1) The /castsequence macros. These macros have the benefit in that they generally do a good job at performing the true 1:1.5 rotation. One of the problems with these macros though is that they use /castsequence to inforce the specific order of shots, which requires more client and server communication, which will slow down you rotation and cost you DPS if you have more than a small amount of latency. Another problem with these macros is that they can be picky. One that works for one person well with their weapon speed and latency may not work well for you. In addition, if your macro uses multishot, you need a second version of the macro that is a 1:1.3 rotation to use when you don't want to break nearby CC effects. Finally, these macros do not scale well with large haste effects (small haste can tighten them up). Under large haste effects, you need to ideally switch to an auto-steady macro for maximum DPS. Thus, this situation could require 3 different macros that you have to switch between in various situations depending on CC and haste.
2) /castrandom macros. These usually have a /cast /cast or a castsequence for the auto-steady main part of the rotation with /castrandom to weave in the multishots and arcane shots. The good news of these macros is that they are a lot more flexible. They tend to still function well under various latency and scale well with haste (insert more auto-steadies between multishots and arcane shots). The bad news is that they do not enforce the true 1:1.5 rotation and can result in a loss of DPS due to inappropriate firings of the multis or arcanes. In addition, you still need a different version of this macro to use when CC effects are near (just drop multishot from the /castrandom line) and another macro for the large haste effects to just do steady-auto.
Now there are some very clever people out there that have come up with macros that try to reduce the need for more than one, but I find these macros too complex and more susceptible to the variants between different users.
I suggest trying some of these options out for yourself to see what works best for you and your situation.
After a lot of experimenting, I use a /cast/cast for the auto-steady rotation and hand-weave the arcanes and multishots in at the appropriate locations. That way I manually control whether to use the 1:1.3 or 1:1.5 rotation depending on CC and how often to fire specials during various haste effects. Now for survival fights in which I can't devote as much SA to monitoring my manual hand-weaving, I do have /castrandom macros I use. Of course, hand-weaving has its own set of problems, such as human error/timing and also distracting you.
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
from what point do you keep stacking Agility and ignore beter DPS items and vise versa..
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As stated in a post in the last few pages, my personal goal as a survival hunter is maximizing my overall raid DPS contribution. This requires me to raise both my agility in order to increase my EW AP to the raid and also my personal DPS so that I am still effective, especially when not on the same target as all the physical DPS. Fortunately with LR and BoK, those two goals often go hand in hand, but they can conflict too. That post a few pages ago provides my personal method for making gearing decisions. Others have similar methods.
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
last question. I dont really get the terms 3:2 and 1:2. I always thought 1:2 was a steady shot/autoshot rotation, but no clue for the 3:2.
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Thus:
2:1 auto-steady-steady
3:2: auto-steady-steady-auto-steady
1:1 auto-steady
1:2 auto-auto-steady
If you use the BM macro and have enough haste to effectively do at least the 2:1 rotation, then additional haste can scale you up to 3:2, then 1:1.
Ah very effective post. Mostly contains what i need to know .
At the moment i have a macro with wich i can spam all i want. It weaves in arcane shot and multy shot pretty nice. Only downside at the moment is that i havent reallt tested it wel (or at least nobody logged a WWS of it) on a bos yet.
Currently i have two buttons. 1 containing multy shot and one without. Switching between teh two for CC fights and non CC fights.
It's became a rather complex and long macro though.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=5/target !Auto Shot, Steady Shot,!Auto shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot,!Auto shot, Multy shot, Steady shot,!Auto shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
hmmm the above is probably not my compleet macro (i typed this out of my head) ill update it soon with the right one.
i also found this macro, could someone comment on it.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
At the moment i have a macro with wich i can spam all i want. It weaves in arcane shot and multy shot pretty nice. Only downside at the moment is that i havent reallt tested it wel (or at least nobody logged a WWS of it) on a bos yet.
Currently i have two buttons. 1 containing multy shot and one without. Switching between teh two for CC fights and non CC fights.
It's became a rather complex and long macro though.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=5/target !Auto Shot, Steady Shot,!Auto shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot,!Auto shot, Multy shot, Steady shot,!Auto shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
hmmm the above is probably not my compleet macro (i typed this out of my head) ill update it soon with the right one.
i also found this macro, could someone comment on it.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
Wow Web Stats
7/20/34 w/ Dream Team Group
Also, dont ask what happened on Council...I dont wanna talk about it.
7/20/34 w/ Dream Team Group
Also, dont ask what happened on Council...I dont wanna talk about it.
Wish my Guild would do that a lil more but most of the time there even refusing to take 2 hunters (and we are 4 hunters in the guild ><)
would be great as a hunters to be in group with either 2 BM 1 surv or 3 BM hunters and then a shadowpriest and a feral druid.
would be great as a hunters to be in group with either 2 BM 1 surv or 3 BM hunters and then a shadowpriest and a feral druid.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
[..]4) Since you are an engineer, I suggest looking into making the Deathblow versions of your helm instead, although they are leather.[..]
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Last edited by Schniepel : 04/15/08 at 12:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Wow Web Stats
7/20/34 w/ Dream Team Group Also, dont ask what happened on Council...I dont wanna talk about it. |
After reading through most of this to increase my SV DPS for Brutallus I've decided to use the newest macro.
I have a few questions about it though (I have a 3.00 speed gun).
First of all how much better is a 3:2 with a DST proc than a 2:1?
With a DST proc I still end up doing a 2:1 instead of 3:2. How much passive haste would I need to make it into a 3:2 rotation. I am guessing you need to reach a certain attack speed but what is it?
Also same question applies for quickshots.
Finally, once I have got enough passive haste to make quickshots and DST start giving me a 3:2 would haste become pretty much useless and stacking agi/armor pen be the way forward?
As far as I understand that's the main information I would need to know to maximise my DPS.
I have a few questions about it though (I have a 3.00 speed gun).
First of all how much better is a 3:2 with a DST proc than a 2:1?
With a DST proc I still end up doing a 2:1 instead of 3:2. How much passive haste would I need to make it into a 3:2 rotation. I am guessing you need to reach a certain attack speed but what is it?
Also same question applies for quickshots.
Finally, once I have got enough passive haste to make quickshots and DST start giving me a 3:2 would haste become pretty much useless and stacking agi/armor pen be the way forward?
As far as I understand that's the main information I would need to know to maximise my DPS.
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
Wish my Guild would do that a lil more but most of the time there even refusing to take 2 hunters (and we are 4 hunters in the guild ><)
would be great as a hunters to be in group with either 2 BM 1 surv or 3 BM hunters and then a shadowpriest and a feral druid. |
I could see us stacking the group like this again for a fight like Twins...where you want to try and get the first one down ASAP. But for a fight like Brut or Felmyst...I almost see it as a waste compared to the value Warlocks and Rogues would receive from a long term +DPS from a BM Hunter.
Those numbers I did on that BT run were the highest I have ever done as Survival, so it was a pretty fun night for me.
Sore82, I noticed that you maintained the Steady-Auto spam for the duration of the fights. Did you ever hit a time where all your cooldowns were up and your DPS started dropping? How significant was the difference? From what I see, you still did some pretty ridiculous damage with minimal haste from gear. It makes me want to give it a shot soon. I've been having difficulty weaving my shots for some reason, (I've been using macros and hand-weaving, but I always seem to end up in the middle of the pack regardless) but these numbers sure do seem rather nice.
What id really like to know is when i can switch back from 7/20/34 to my old 20/41 spec. How much haste is needed before that (more rapid fires with readiness) is better than 7/20/34? Me and Ondskaben have been talking a bit, but we cant really figure out the magic number.
I dont want to gimp my agility for haste too much, since i obviously still want to buff my raid
I dont want to gimp my agility for haste too much, since i obviously still want to buff my raid
Shouldnt it be between 350 and 380 depending on latency? No idea what it would be for 2.8 speed weapon.
Hi all (my first post on these forums); a couple questions for Xfer
1) The BT WWS you posted was done with just Clutch of Demise (and Drums of Battle) as "passive" haste (both Fury of the Crashing Waves and Berserker's Call buffs would at least indicate you didn't use a DST)?
2) What kind of macro setup were you running; the regular cast/cast with KC or a second macro for KC that I've seen mentioned a few times?
3) What's up with 121 hit rating? :> Though I see you only got one gem with any hit on it so I'm guessing it's just not bothering to do ZA for dual Mojos or Felspine not dropping yet?
Anyway, very encouraging results and lots of kudos for that.
I'm a long-time manual 1.5:1 man myself (currently trying out BM for fun with Crossbow of Relentless Badges) but my doubts of trying out the 7/20/34 with macro is eroding as I type this seeing as haste gear is not a requirement for good results (I currently only got a Felspine and sort of agreed to pass Clutch of Demise for rogues now that I finally got Telonicus').
We actually kill Gruul fairly often on off-raid days so I might be able to get my hands on a DST too, what I'm really concerned about is my latency and how it would affect adopting macros. And we're not talking about 150 or 200 here, it's usually closer to 300 than 250 during evenings :/. Does that mean I can forget macros (I know from experience the castsequence ones were crap with my latency) and 7/20/34 altogether or how sensitive are the /cast/cast macros to latency these days (with all the serverside black magic going on)?
1) The BT WWS you posted was done with just Clutch of Demise (and Drums of Battle) as "passive" haste (both Fury of the Crashing Waves and Berserker's Call buffs would at least indicate you didn't use a DST)?
2) What kind of macro setup were you running; the regular cast/cast with KC or a second macro for KC that I've seen mentioned a few times?
3) What's up with 121 hit rating? :> Though I see you only got one gem with any hit on it so I'm guessing it's just not bothering to do ZA for dual Mojos or Felspine not dropping yet?
Anyway, very encouraging results and lots of kudos for that.
I'm a long-time manual 1.5:1 man myself (currently trying out BM for fun with Crossbow of Relentless Badges) but my doubts of trying out the 7/20/34 with macro is eroding as I type this seeing as haste gear is not a requirement for good results (I currently only got a Felspine and sort of agreed to pass Clutch of Demise for rogues now that I finally got Telonicus').
We actually kill Gruul fairly often on off-raid days so I might be able to get my hands on a DST too, what I'm really concerned about is my latency and how it would affect adopting macros. And we're not talking about 150 or 200 here, it's usually closer to 300 than 250 during evenings :/. Does that mean I can forget macros (I know from experience the castsequence ones were crap with my latency) and 7/20/34 altogether or how sensitive are the /cast/cast macros to latency these days (with all the serverside black magic going on)?
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Originally Posted by EvilDeathCrab
Sore82, I noticed that you maintained the Steady-Auto spam for the duration of the fights. Did you ever hit a time where all your cooldowns were up and your DPS started dropping? How significant was the difference? From what I see, you still did some pretty ridiculous damage with minimal haste from gear. It makes me want to give it a shot soon. I've been having difficulty weaving my shots for some reason, (I've been using macros and hand-weaving, but I always seem to end up in the middle of the pack regardless) but these numbers sure do seem rather nice.
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Hi all (my first post on these forums); a couple questions for Xfer 1) The BT WWS you posted was done with just Clutch of Demise (and Drums of Battle) as "passive" haste (both Fury of the Crashing Waves and Berserker's Call buffs would at least indicate you didn't use a DST)? 2) What kind of macro setup were you running; the regular cast/cast with KC or a second macro for KC that I've seen mentioned a few times? 3) What's up with 121 hit rating? :> Though I see you only got one gem with any hit on it so I'm guessing it's just not bothering to do ZA for dual Mojos or Felspine not dropping yet? Anyway, very encouraging results and lots of kudos for that. I'm a long-time manual 1.5:1 man myself (currently trying out BM for fun with Crossbow of Relentless Badges) but my doubts of trying out the 7/20/34 with macro is eroding as I type this seeing as haste gear is not a requirement for good results (I currently only got a Felspine and sort of agreed to pass Clutch of Demise for rogues now that I finally got Telonicus'). We actually kill Gruul fairly often on off-raid days so I might be able to get my hands on a DST too, what I'm really concerned about is my latency and how it would affect adopting macros. And we're not talking about 150 or 200 here, it's usually closer to 300 than 250 during evenings :/. Does that mean I can forget macros (I know from experience the castsequence ones were crap with my latency) and 7/20/34 altogether or how sensitive are the /cast/cast macros to latency these days (with all the serverside black magic going on)? |
2 - I use:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
The way to set up this macro has been explained on this forum a couple of times.
3 - Well, I just recently was able to put on my Cursed Vision from getting the Gronnstalker Belt (both of which have a good amount of +hit). My hit is over the cap right now cus I dont really have much I can replace it with (and my guild is also lacking Red BT/MH gems). But I do realize im over, and am planning on getting some boots or something to replace some of the +Hit with better stats. My choices right now are [Shadowmaster's Boots] or [Star-Strider Boots].
Sore82, I'd love to run some questions by you concerning all this if you don't mind...
Firstly am I right in thinking your group composition was resto shaman, feral druid and you 3 hunters (yourself and 2x BM)?
Secondly, is the "haste" buff from a haste potion? I've not used them myself as I (currently) run a manual 1.5:1
Also, what order did they haste buffs come in and did any overlap? I only see 1 Drums buff which is approx 5% by itself, did you pair the drums with heroism or was that after the other buffs?
Also, what macro do you use for this and what's your MS like?
Sorry for the barrage of questions but this looks like something I might be able to replicate in my guild and I'd really love to try... might need to convince a paladin to keep up JoW though. Alternatively use a fel mana potion at the start and a haste potion when it's off cooldown, that would keep you at full mana for a while early on.
Edit: I see you've just answered most of my questions, many thanks. I'd still like to know the order you used them in and if that really matters.
Firstly am I right in thinking your group composition was resto shaman, feral druid and you 3 hunters (yourself and 2x BM)?
Secondly, is the "haste" buff from a haste potion? I've not used them myself as I (currently) run a manual 1.5:1
Also, what order did they haste buffs come in and did any overlap? I only see 1 Drums buff which is approx 5% by itself, did you pair the drums with heroism or was that after the other buffs?
Also, what macro do you use for this and what's your MS like?
Sorry for the barrage of questions but this looks like something I might be able to replicate in my guild and I'd really love to try... might need to convince a paladin to keep up JoW though. Alternatively use a fel mana potion at the start and a haste potion when it's off cooldown, that would keep you at full mana for a while early on.
Edit: I see you've just answered most of my questions, many thanks. I'd still like to know the order you used them in and if that really matters.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
Edit: I see you've just answered most of my questions, many thanks. I'd still like to know the order you used them in and if that really matters. |
As for the other Haste, I usually started off with using my Rapid Fire + Berserker's Call, and then once Rapid Fire ended I drank a Haste pot. Then around 25% the shaman would pop a Heroism. If Rapid Fire or Haste pot were up at that point I would stack them, since in BT, once something is sub 20% it usually dies very fast.
Nice, thanks...
If you wouldn't mind I'd like to throw another few questions out (as it's server downtime atm).
I'm currently 0/20/41 doing a 1.5:1 but i'm liking the look of the 7/20/34 and considering giving it a whirl but I'm curious, how neccesary is the 4pc t6 bonus (I don't have it, just gloves atm).
Alternatively, should it be possible to run a 3:2 macro while rapid fire/heroism/haste pot is up but no other haste buffs? I guess I can find this out for myself tomorrow on Boom but I'd like to know if I'm completely missing the point here or something?
If that works it could be a substantial boost to my 2xRapid Fire.
If you wouldn't mind I'd like to throw another few questions out (as it's server downtime atm).
I'm currently 0/20/41 doing a 1.5:1 but i'm liking the look of the 7/20/34 and considering giving it a whirl but I'm curious, how neccesary is the 4pc t6 bonus (I don't have it, just gloves atm).
Alternatively, should it be possible to run a 3:2 macro while rapid fire/heroism/haste pot is up but no other haste buffs? I guess I can find this out for myself tomorrow on Boom but I'd like to know if I'm completely missing the point here or something?
If that works it could be a substantial boost to my 2xRapid Fire.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
Nice, thanks...
If you wouldn't mind I'd like to throw another few questions out (as it's server downtime atm). I'm currently 0/20/41 doing a 1.5:1 but i'm liking the look of the 7/20/34 and considering giving it a whirl but I'm curious, how neccesary is the 4pc t6 bonus (I don't have it, just gloves atm). Alternatively, should it be possible to run a 3:2 macro while rapid fire/heroism/haste pot is up but no other haste buffs? I guess I can find this out for myself tomorrow on Boom but I'd like to know if I'm completely missing the point here or something? If that works it could be a substantial boost to my 2xRapid Fire. |
As for running a 3:2 rotation with just Regular Haste buffs...im not sure. I know that my goal is to get around 80passive haste (haste on gear) which I think will help make my IAotH get to a 3:2 when it procs.
I really havent had that much experience with using this build or haste gear. I kinda just have to wait for stuff to drop to test it out to see how well it works.
would it be interesting for us to stac such an amount of haste to get a 1:1 shot rotation without having to weave in extra shots (making us most mana efficient build there is)
i was wondering this cuss with sunwell a lot of new haste items are opening up for us.
i was wondering this cuss with sunwell a lot of new haste items are opening up for us.
Hi, im kinda new to survival, have tried some diffrent rotations etc. but i cant seem to find the right rotations. I have tried that "2part marco" but that one starts to clip the autoshots almost instantly, i've tried a normal auru/steady macro and put in arcane/multi manually, and i've also tried this macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Right now that macro is the one that works be the one that gives me the most, im useing that one but without the multishot if there is CC around. What should i aim for? Get much haste gear and only use that steady/auto macro?
Thanks! // Confused hunter!
(If armory doesnt link from sig: Runqen @ Argent Dawn)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Right now that macro is the one that works be the one that gives me the most, im useing that one but without the multishot if there is CC around. What should i aim for? Get much haste gear and only use that steady/auto macro?
Thanks! // Confused hunter!
(If armory doesnt link from sig: Runqen @ Argent Dawn)
As a newly converted survival hunter, I have been keeping up with this thread on current strategies to make this spec work most efficiently. And so far, it has been great. I have been playing around with both spec, 0/20/41, 7/20/34. The latter being my most recent and current spec. With no haste buff up (IAotH, Rapid Fire, etc.) I have been trying to stay close to a 1:1.5 shot rotation.
I have been observing several WWS reports recently of people with the same spec. Looking at their specific damaging shots, mine do not seem to match up percentage-wise. It may be my lack of the 4 piece t6 set bonus, but my auto-shots always seems to be my top damaging shot, as opposed to steady shot being the most damaging shot by percentage (from what I have seen from WWS). Does this statistic alone throw up a flag that there is something wrong with my shot rotation? I normally use a standard BM macro while weaving in specials.
I have been observing several WWS reports recently of people with the same spec. Looking at their specific damaging shots, mine do not seem to match up percentage-wise. It may be my lack of the 4 piece t6 set bonus, but my auto-shots always seems to be my top damaging shot, as opposed to steady shot being the most damaging shot by percentage (from what I have seen from WWS). Does this statistic alone throw up a flag that there is something wrong with my shot rotation? I normally use a standard BM macro while weaving in specials.
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Originally Posted by Twoshots
As a newly converted survival hunter, I have been keeping up with this thread on current strategies to make this spec work most efficiently. And so far, it has been great. I have been playing around with both spec, 0/20/41, 7/20/34. The latter being my most recent and current spec. With no haste buff up (IAotH, Rapid Fire, etc.) I have been trying to stay close to a 1:1.5 shot rotation.
I have been observing several WWS reports recently of people with the same spec. Looking at their specific damaging shots, mine do not seem to match up percentage-wise. It may be my lack of the 4 piece t6 set bonus, but my auto-shots always seems to be my top damaging shot, as opposed to steady shot being the most damaging shot by percentage (from what I have seen from WWS). Does this statistic alone throw up a flag that there is something wrong with my shot rotation? I normally use a standard BM macro while weaving in specials. |
If you dont have 4 pieces of T6 your autos will generally hit for more than your steadies. Your 1:1.5 roation unhasted then becomes the right choice. When you go with the other rotaion in an unhasted situation you are trading out auto shots for steady shots. This costs mana and drops dps. Even if you did have 4 piece T6 and your steadies did a little more than your autos if you couldnt maintain some level of haste most of the time then you still dont want to trade steadies for autos. What you are after with the other rotation is increasing your overall shot count. IAotH / leatherowrking / Bloodlust / DST / passive haste / haste pots (usable because of increased mana efficiency and things loke JoW or shadow priests) all start to increase your ratio of time you spend hasted vs non-hasted. Your 1:1.5 rotation does not benefit from haste but the other rotation does. Increased haste levels also greatly reduces your chances of chaining steadies which kills your real dps.
All that means that your personal gear / haste / latency / weapon speed / group composition all play into what the right choice for you is. You really need to go out to Dr Boom or blasted lands or (my favorite) ghosts at the top of DM North and use recount to record the shot counts you can achieve wiith various setups. Then use WWS numbers from actual raids to compute the dps each setup gives you. You should also compare mana efficiency. i.e. a 30dps upgrade for a 40% mana efficiency loss may not be worth it.
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
would it be interesting for us to stac such an amount of haste to get a 1:1 shot rotation without having to weave in extra shots (making us most mana efficient build there is)
i was wondering this cuss with sunwell a lot of new haste items are opening up for us. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
You mean drop it to 3:2 rotation with slighly over 20% haste when using 3.0 speed weapon.
1:1 with weapon speed close to 2 is not that spectacular dps.
I still havent been able to get pets included automatically to my WWS logs even though I type /combatlog instantly after restarting client and then uploading that without any cutting.
WWS Loading...
( pet here: Wind Serpent - WWS )
Total dps for me 1700+295 = 1995.
I guess 0/20/41 is not so bad option for those who havent had the luck with DST. I got one burn on that go and wasnt able to use readiness at all as I kind of fucked up the cooldown rotations.. Boss died same second as readiness cooldown was ready. :|
Suppose on a "clean" go 2.1k is doable with this group setup.
No heroisms btw.
1:1 with weapon speed close to 2 is not that spectacular dps.
I still havent been able to get pets included automatically to my WWS logs even though I type /combatlog instantly after restarting client and then uploading that without any cutting.
WWS Loading...
( pet here: Wind Serpent - WWS )
Total dps for me 1700+295 = 1995.
I guess 0/20/41 is not so bad option for those who havent had the luck with DST. I got one burn on that go and wasnt able to use readiness at all as I kind of fucked up the cooldown rotations.. Boss died same second as readiness cooldown was ready. :|
Suppose on a "clean" go 2.1k is doable with this group setup.
No heroisms btw.
Last edited by Osse : 04/16/08 at 6:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Osse
I still havent been able to get pets included automatically to my WWS logs even though I type /combatlog instantly after restarting client and then uploading that without any cutting.
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It begins logging immediately once you enter a zone, very handy, and I've never noticed any issues with pets since 2.4.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Well I've been testing out 7/20/34, don't really have an opinion oh how its preforming next to 20/41 but I am noticing with steady spam and KC i'm running into huge mana problems pretty early. Not running a ret pally makes me sad. Other thing is the proc rate on Quick Shots is really pretty terrible. I've easily gone 2 min without getting a single proc. The proc rate is no where dst which makes me very sad and wonder how much average up time per minute we can expect from QS. Also what exactly are we looking at for a 1:1 rotation on a 3.0 in terms of haste number and percentage. I'm looking at my character pane which says i'm at 2.61 with a 15% quiver so right there off the bat either I'm only getting 13% or blizzard doesn't know how to do math. Adding another 27% to that ends up looking at a 1.8 passive speed which works out to 425 haste. 20% passive haste before quiver puts you at a 2.01 regular speed requiring 315 which is still a rather large amount even in the top haste gear. So at what haste rating would it be reasonable to expect to be able to attain and not waste any haste by throwing your rotation into something faster than what it needs to be at (i.e. dropping it from a regular 3:2 to something slightly faster than 3:2 but not at 1:1.)
Going through some of the new drops and craftable sunwell gear I've put together a set that adds up to anywhere from 320-330 haste depending on what pieces of leather gear you go with which would force you to go with GS legs to keep 4pc, or a slightly less haste heavy set that can range anywhere from 223-301 depending on how much armor pene leather gear you want to go with. Even with all that gear you're toping out at around a 2sec cast on auto shot passive while also losing alot of personal stats. So I guess we're gonna be tied to haste procs/pots/full time drums to get us into a 1:1 rotation.
Going through some of the new drops and craftable sunwell gear I've put together a set that adds up to anywhere from 320-330 haste depending on what pieces of leather gear you go with which would force you to go with GS legs to keep 4pc, or a slightly less haste heavy set that can range anywhere from 223-301 depending on how much armor pene leather gear you want to go with. Even with all that gear you're toping out at around a 2sec cast on auto shot passive while also losing alot of personal stats. So I guess we're gonna be tied to haste procs/pots/full time drums to get us into a 1:1 rotation.
Last edited by Aern : 04/17/08 at 1:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by Aern
Also what exactly are we looking at for a 1:1 rotation on a 3.0 in terms of haste number and percentage. I'm looking at my character pane which says i'm at 2.61 with a 15% quiver so right there off the bat either I'm only getting 13% or blizzard doesn't know how to do math.
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3.0 / 1.15 = 2.61. Looks fine to me.
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Originally Posted by Aern
Adding another 27% to that ends up looking at a 1.8 passive speed which works out to 425 haste.
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Originally Posted by Aern
20% passive haste before quiver puts you at a 2.01 regular speed requiring 315 which is still a rather large amount even in the top haste gear.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.1
So basicly speccing for rapid fire with a readiness (never really came up to me that this is also resetted :O) to be abel to keep up rapid fire at all time, stack as manny haste items as possible wiktout loosing to much other stats (For instance the halberd from sunwel plateau) and using the DST trinket (wich i STILL need to get God dammit) will enable you to almost always keep up the 1:1 and 3:2 with procs?
Considering this is it also interesting for me to get the 150 badge bow or just stick with the Archimonde bow?
also just now abacus of the violent odds came to mind. (use increase haste rating by 260 (for 10 sec or something like that) 2 min coldown.
This is how your increase would look like then
0:00 Rapid fire (40% attack speed inc)
0:15 Rapid fire (readiness) (macro /cast readiness /stopcasting /cast rapid fire)
0:30 Abacus of the violent odds (260 haste rating)
0:40 haste potion (400 haste rating)
0:55 drums of battle (80 haste rating)
1:25 Possible shaman Heroism/Bloodrage (30% attackspeed inc) or <downtime>
1:55 <downtime>
2:30 Abacus of the violent odds
2:40 haste potion
2.55 drums of battle
3:25 Rapid fire
3:40 <downtime>
4:30 Abacus of the violent odds
4:40 haste potion
4:55 down time
Now from this point it gets trickey. Do you activate your readiness at 5:15 to get your rapid fire of CD or wait till 6:25 to use it again since its already 1:50 min in its CD.
Appart from that, it dosn't really appeal to me. Besides from the fact that you will need to get leatherworking, stack loads of haste pots and need a shaman in your group, you will also need to give up a trinket slot for Abacus, and make yourself unabel to make use of mana/health pots.
Besides that you'll create a downtime (meaning time were you dont get any haste effects) of first 35 seconds, and second 50 seconds.
Ofcourse that wil be seriously reduced if you gte a second or even third drums of war user in your party.
Having just cleared my own idea from the table ill ahve to come up with a second option that i like better. I found some items wich wont decrease your Stats (by a lot) and that give haste rating.
Bracers:
[Swiftstrike Bracers] 27 haste rating
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] 27 haste rating
Belts:
[Valestalker Girdle] 36 haste rating
[Shadow-walker's Cord] 37 haste rating
Rings:
[Band of Devastation] 31 haste rating
[Hard Khorium Band] 28 haste rating
Shoulders:
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] 37 haste rating
[Shoulderpads of Vehemence] 30 haste rating
Heads:
[Duplicitous Guise] 34 haste rating
Gloves:
[Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] 34 haste rating
Chests:
[Embrace of the Phoenix] 44 haste rating
one-handed weapons:
[Fang of Kalecgos] 25 haste rating
Necks:
[Clutch of Demise] 30 haste rating
[Hard Khorium Choker] 29 haste rating
Two-handed weapons:
[Shivering Felspine] 53 haste rating
backs:
[Cloak of Fiends] 25 haste rating
using these items you could get up to a haste rating of around 319 (thats without gems)
Now using these items and combining it with the right hit items you can use some haste rating gems and probably get as high as 339 haste from items. You also still have 4 t6 items this way.
339 haste rating is 20,5923% haste increase from items.
with a 3.00 attackspeed bow this would mean you wil get a 2.07 AS.
with the 2.8 badge bow you can go even as low as 1.93 AS
this sounds loads of more apealing to me, as i dont wanna have to spend to much of my concentration on starting trinkets and buffs in time and still have the ability to use potions and stuff. (now only to find even more way's of getting that last 0.30 speed off)
Only problem is. You'll have to get some sunwell items before you can do this. But in time that should be no problem.
Considering this is it also interesting for me to get the 150 badge bow or just stick with the Archimonde bow?
also just now abacus of the violent odds came to mind. (use increase haste rating by 260 (for 10 sec or something like that) 2 min coldown.
This is how your increase would look like then
0:00 Rapid fire (40% attack speed inc)
0:15 Rapid fire (readiness) (macro /cast readiness /stopcasting /cast rapid fire)
0:30 Abacus of the violent odds (260 haste rating)
0:40 haste potion (400 haste rating)
0:55 drums of battle (80 haste rating)
1:25 Possible shaman Heroism/Bloodrage (30% attackspeed inc) or <downtime>
1:55 <downtime>
2:30 Abacus of the violent odds
2:40 haste potion
2.55 drums of battle
3:25 Rapid fire
3:40 <downtime>
4:30 Abacus of the violent odds
4:40 haste potion
4:55 down time
Now from this point it gets trickey. Do you activate your readiness at 5:15 to get your rapid fire of CD or wait till 6:25 to use it again since its already 1:50 min in its CD.
Appart from that, it dosn't really appeal to me. Besides from the fact that you will need to get leatherworking, stack loads of haste pots and need a shaman in your group, you will also need to give up a trinket slot for Abacus, and make yourself unabel to make use of mana/health pots.
Besides that you'll create a downtime (meaning time were you dont get any haste effects) of first 35 seconds, and second 50 seconds.
Ofcourse that wil be seriously reduced if you gte a second or even third drums of war user in your party.
Having just cleared my own idea from the table ill ahve to come up with a second option that i like better. I found some items wich wont decrease your Stats (by a lot) and that give haste rating.
Bracers:
[Swiftstrike Bracers] 27 haste rating
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] 27 haste rating
Belts:
[Valestalker Girdle] 36 haste rating
[Shadow-walker's Cord] 37 haste rating
Rings:
[Band of Devastation] 31 haste rating
[Hard Khorium Band] 28 haste rating
Shoulders:
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] 37 haste rating
[Shoulderpads of Vehemence] 30 haste rating
Heads:
[Duplicitous Guise] 34 haste rating
Gloves:
[Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] 34 haste rating
Chests:
[Embrace of the Phoenix] 44 haste rating
one-handed weapons:
[Fang of Kalecgos] 25 haste rating
Necks:
[Clutch of Demise] 30 haste rating
[Hard Khorium Choker] 29 haste rating
Two-handed weapons:
[Shivering Felspine] 53 haste rating
backs:
[Cloak of Fiends] 25 haste rating
using these items you could get up to a haste rating of around 319 (thats without gems)
Now using these items and combining it with the right hit items you can use some haste rating gems and probably get as high as 339 haste from items. You also still have 4 t6 items this way.
339 haste rating is 20,5923% haste increase from items.
with a 3.00 attackspeed bow this would mean you wil get a 2.07 AS.
with the 2.8 badge bow you can go even as low as 1.93 AS
this sounds loads of more apealing to me, as i dont wanna have to spend to much of my concentration on starting trinkets and buffs in time and still have the ability to use potions and stuff. (now only to find even more way's of getting that last 0.30 speed off)
Only problem is. You'll have to get some sunwell items before you can do this. But in time that should be no problem.
Last edited by Aiyakido : 04/17/08 at 7:45 AM.
I am a long time reader, but first time poster
I am not in sunwell content yet, however, im wondering at what paperdoll speed will a 1:1x rotation become less effective that switching to a 3:2? Or, in other words, what kind of haste would I be looking at to tighten up a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9 or 3.0 speed weapon?
Currently using the 0/28/33 build and a 2.9 speed weapon (steam pistol) and I dont have a DST. Would even trying to gain a few haste items be worth it at this level?
I am not in sunwell content yet, however, im wondering at what paperdoll speed will a 1:1x rotation become less effective that switching to a 3:2? Or, in other words, what kind of haste would I be looking at to tighten up a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9 or 3.0 speed weapon?
Currently using the 0/28/33 build and a 2.9 speed weapon (steam pistol) and I dont have a DST. Would even trying to gain a few haste items be worth it at this level?
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
using these items you could get up to a haste rating of around 319 (thats without gems)
Now using these items and combining it with the right hit items you can use some haste rating gems and probably get as high as 339 haste from items. You also still have 4 t6 items this way. 339 haste rating is 20,5923% haste increase from items. with a 3.00 attackspeed bow this would mean you wil get a 2.07 AS. with the 2.8 badge bow you can go even as low as 1.93 AS this sounds loads of more apealing to me, as i dont wanna have to spend to much of my concentration on starting trinkets and buffs in time and still have the ability to use potions and stuff. (now only to find even more way's of getting that last 0.30 speed off) Only problem is. You'll have to get some sunwell items before you can do this. But in time that should be no problem. |
Next, while this is a good idea on paper, I still see it as a huge loss to agi stats compared to what you could be wearing in other slots. On many of the items that have +haste on the, they do not have sockets, however when you look at another item that is of the same quality and has no +Haste (maybe +Armor Pen), it will have sockets on it. I have no doubt that stacking some passive Haste will be a big benefit to us in the long run, but trying to stack that much just seems like overkill.
I guess in the end it doesnt really matter...this is supposed to be the last instance before WotLK comes out, and once guilds start having KJ on farm status, spec/gear wont matter nearly as much.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I managed to get my DST yesterday on a very lucky Gruul's run (lucky since i managed to get my guild there on the "free raid day", and lucky cos it's like the 2nd DST my guild has seen so far).
Today I did some testing that I'd like to share with all those people like me that still have not achieved the 4 Pieces T6 bonus and don't have the proper bow (I am using [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] while waiting Archimonde or Illidan to drop their respective bows).
Those tests were achieved on a 5 tests per rotation on Dr. Boom using the 7/20/34 Survival build. Using HM, AoTH, DST, Rapid Fire and 32dps Arrows.
3:2 macro -> 992 dps
1:1.5 macro -> 1130 dps
1:1.5 (while non hasted) + 3:2 (while hasted by Rapid Fire + DST) -> 1170 dps
Of course all those results are the average of 5 tests. Crit rates averages were consistent with my paperdoll crit rate, while procs (such as IAoTH, DST, Ashtongue talisman) were pretty much the same.
It could be interesting to se Lesue / Intermission / Kurkis results on Dr. Boom and compare those numbers and see how they evolve with superior gearing and different Survival talent setup (0/20/41).
Today I did some testing that I'd like to share with all those people like me that still have not achieved the 4 Pieces T6 bonus and don't have the proper bow (I am using [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] while waiting Archimonde or Illidan to drop their respective bows).
Those tests were achieved on a 5 tests per rotation on Dr. Boom using the 7/20/34 Survival build. Using HM, AoTH, DST, Rapid Fire and 32dps Arrows.
3:2 macro -> 992 dps
1:1.5 macro -> 1130 dps
1:1.5 (while non hasted) + 3:2 (while hasted by Rapid Fire + DST) -> 1170 dps
Of course all those results are the average of 5 tests. Crit rates averages were consistent with my paperdoll crit rate, while procs (such as IAoTH, DST, Ashtongue talisman) were pretty much the same.
It could be interesting to se Lesue / Intermission / Kurkis results on Dr. Boom and compare those numbers and see how they evolve with superior gearing and different Survival talent setup (0/20/41).
Last edited by Novacaine : 04/17/08 at 12:33 PM.
Testing 1:1.5 and 3:2 macro differences should be done in Blasted Lands to get results similar to what you would get in raid environment. Arcane shot is hugely favored when testing at Dr. Boom.
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Originally Posted by Aiyakido
using these items you could get up to a haste rating of around 319 (thats without gems)
Now using these items and combining it with the right hit items you can use some haste rating gems and probably get as high as 339 haste from items. You also still have 4 t6 items this way. |
You list all this haste gear, which includes 6 of the 8 slots for T6 gear but still state that you have the 4 set T6 bonus. If so, what 2 pieces did you drop from the analysis, and did you remember to drop them?
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Originally Posted by Osse
Testing 1:1.5 and 3:2 macro differences should be done in Blasted Lands to get results similar to what you would get in raid environment. Arcane shot is hugely favored when testing at Dr. Boom.
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But it's true, I might as well do these tests in the blasted lands.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Question to Intermission.
What debuffs are you guys running on Brut, and do certain debuffs take priority over others? It seems that according to my WWS, I get in just as much if not more shots with a close 3:2-1:1 rotation, one BL and no feral, but average damage per shot is considerably weaker.
The World of Warcraft Armory My gear is not that far off from yours, I roll with a little more haste and a bit less hit, Ring of Deceitful Intent goes in place of the Wrath for bosses.
Vi - WWS For Brut kill. Had a burn, so time wasted there.
122 x 1060 Steadies. vs 111 x 1160+
89 x 1038 Autos. vs 86 x 1110+
Group was
BM
BM
Resto Sham
SV
Lock
Thanks.
What debuffs are you guys running on Brut, and do certain debuffs take priority over others? It seems that according to my WWS, I get in just as much if not more shots with a close 3:2-1:1 rotation, one BL and no feral, but average damage per shot is considerably weaker.
The World of Warcraft Armory My gear is not that far off from yours, I roll with a little more haste and a bit less hit, Ring of Deceitful Intent goes in place of the Wrath for bosses.
Vi - WWS For Brut kill. Had a burn, so time wasted there.
122 x 1060 Steadies. vs 111 x 1160+
89 x 1038 Autos. vs 86 x 1110+
Group was
BM
BM
Resto Sham
SV
Lock
Thanks.
Last edited by Vida : 04/17/08 at 4:34 PM.
When looking at our WWS's:
Vi - WWS - Vi
Intermission - WWS - Inter
The shot counts are different than you suggest. I see:
Vi
SS: 122 hit + 85 crit = 207 total steadies
AS: 89 hit + 55 crit = 144 total autos
Inter
SS: 111 hit + 103 crit = 214 total steadies
AS: 86 hit + 61 crit = 147 total steadies
Your figures only include the hits, you need to click on the bar and view the dropdown to see the crits and stats like average crit/non crit damage.
As for the difference in average damage, I had 3 BM hunters in my party, so an extra 3% dmg there. Our shaman also had enhanced totems. We had all usual debuffs (CoR, Blood Frenzy, FF, etc) except for our Ret pally who couldn't make it that night (loss of 3% crit, and also went oom at 3%, after dropping KC at ~20%).
Also, I used a Ravager and you used an Owl. I didnt Scorpid Sting that kill either, you may have. All those factors probably equate to the ~450 dps dif, as the shot numbers are quite close.
PS: Last kill when I was Scorpid Stinging, I had trouble breaking 2100, it really is a large loss of dps, but obviously a huge gain for healers.
Vi - WWS - Vi
Intermission - WWS - Inter
The shot counts are different than you suggest. I see:
Vi
SS: 122 hit + 85 crit = 207 total steadies
AS: 89 hit + 55 crit = 144 total autos
Inter
SS: 111 hit + 103 crit = 214 total steadies
AS: 86 hit + 61 crit = 147 total steadies
Your figures only include the hits, you need to click on the bar and view the dropdown to see the crits and stats like average crit/non crit damage.
As for the difference in average damage, I had 3 BM hunters in my party, so an extra 3% dmg there. Our shaman also had enhanced totems. We had all usual debuffs (CoR, Blood Frenzy, FF, etc) except for our Ret pally who couldn't make it that night (loss of 3% crit, and also went oom at 3%, after dropping KC at ~20%).
Also, I used a Ravager and you used an Owl. I didnt Scorpid Sting that kill either, you may have. All those factors probably equate to the ~450 dps dif, as the shot numbers are quite close.
PS: Last kill when I was Scorpid Stinging, I had trouble breaking 2100, it really is a large loss of dps, but obviously a huge gain for healers.
What happened to testing the 1.5 hand weave this week, Inter? Your WWS from this morning only shows one multi and 2 arcanes =(
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Maybe you changed stuff up a little and didn't share it with us, but some things just do not add up.
You list all this haste gear, which includes 6 of the 8 slots for T6 gear but still state that you have the 4 set T6 bonus. If so, what 2 pieces did you drop from the analysis, and did you remember to drop them? |
And indeed to the other guy. I probably made the haste gems up. Thinking about it i also think there are none available
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Uday
What happened to testing the 1.5 hand weave this week, Inter? Your WWS from this morning only shows one multi and 2 arcanes =(
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It didnt look like we were going to have a Ret pally so I didnt respec to a 1:1.5 setup before the raid, but we got him in anyway.
Next week I promise!
Last edited by Intermission : 04/17/08 at 10:07 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Hey there, i think im a first time poster, and was just gonna ask if anyone has seen the 2 new melee weapons for hunters that came in 2.4? I didnt find a single post about them anywhere yet according this matter..
[Shivering Felspine] and [The Blade Of Harbingers]
They both seem to have 53 haste, and i wondered why..then i noticed that a 3.0 speed ranged, and quiver/pouch + 53 haste = 20.0% speed, which then leads to 3.0 speed = 2.5 speed..i hope, writing this in the middle of the night.
That brings us to the spec and the rotation..if one were to take imp arc 5/5, you would get a 5 sec CD, and that seems to sort of fit in right? you could have a macro (that already exists) and really spam it with !auto, steady, AS, auto, steady, auto, steady, AS...etc.
You would get an arcane shot every other cycle...seems too perfect to be true? prolly, i havent tried it yet.
And because of that rotation, you would need some wierd spec, or thats what i think atleast, since using AotH with imp AotH will ruin the rotation quite..so why not try MM again? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
or SV? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
That's my 2 cents, i hope someone can try it out, and i know the latency will not make it work 100%...but im keeping my thumbs up
EDIT: Just noticed wowhead says 53 haste = 3.36% while thottbot says 5.0%..anyway, im getting an auto attack speed of 2.52 in cheekys, and i guess that will help ppl with a little bit of latency
[Shivering Felspine] and [The Blade Of Harbingers]
They both seem to have 53 haste, and i wondered why..then i noticed that a 3.0 speed ranged, and quiver/pouch + 53 haste = 20.0% speed, which then leads to 3.0 speed = 2.5 speed..i hope, writing this in the middle of the night.
That brings us to the spec and the rotation..if one were to take imp arc 5/5, you would get a 5 sec CD, and that seems to sort of fit in right? you could have a macro (that already exists) and really spam it with !auto, steady, AS, auto, steady, auto, steady, AS...etc.
You would get an arcane shot every other cycle...seems too perfect to be true? prolly, i havent tried it yet.
And because of that rotation, you would need some wierd spec, or thats what i think atleast, since using AotH with imp AotH will ruin the rotation quite..so why not try MM again? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
or SV? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
That's my 2 cents, i hope someone can try it out, and i know the latency will not make it work 100%...but im keeping my thumbs up
EDIT: Just noticed wowhead says 53 haste = 3.36% while thottbot says 5.0%..anyway, im getting an auto attack speed of 2.52 in cheekys, and i guess that will help ppl with a little bit of latency
Last edited by IHAFLOTZBALLZ : 04/18/08 at 12:28 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
You need to brush up on your haste math, not blizzard.
3.0 / 1.15 = 2.61. Looks fine to me. 2.61 / 1.27 = 2.05, not 1.8. 3.0 / (1.15*1.20) = 2.17, not 2.01. |
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Originally Posted by Intermission
I actually tested Wind Serpent with /cast/cast instead. It failed massively, imo, which is why I have a Ravager on the kill. (We wiped a full night to tank deaths, so I got a LOT of Wind Serpent attempts. We one shot him last night at least).
It didnt look like we were going to have a Ret pally so I didnt respec to a 1:1.5 setup before the raid, but we got him in anyway. Next week I promise! |
First time post here!
Seeing that we're getting on the subject of pets here briefly, I was wondering for the Survival Hunters who are progressing into Sunwell - what kind of pets they are using and how they are choosing to spec them?
Thanks
Seeing that we're getting on the subject of pets here briefly, I was wondering for the Survival Hunters who are progressing into Sunwell - what kind of pets they are using and how they are choosing to spec them?
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Tidewell
First time post here!
Seeing that we're getting on the subject of pets here briefly, I was wondering for the Survival Hunters who are progressing into Sunwell - what kind of pets they are using and how they are choosing to spec them? Thanks |
I dont really understand the reason people are using Owls in Sunwell...their Screech debuff not only uses up a debuff slot, but also is very minimal AP loss to the target. If the only thing keeping your tanks alive is a -210AP debuff, then there are a lot more problems going on.
As for what pet to us; the general standard is use a Ravager if you have LESS than 35% crit, if you have MORE than 35% crit, then go for a Windserpent. A Windserpent has a higher focus dump especially when paired with GftT.
As for what pet to us; the general standard is use a Ravager if you have LESS than 35% crit, if you have MORE than 35% crit, then go for a Windserpent. A Windserpent has a higher focus dump especially when paired with GftT.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
I dont really understand the reason people are using Owls in Sunwell...their Screech debuff not only uses up a debuff slot, but also is very minimal AP loss to the target. If the only thing keeping your tanks alive is a -210AP debuff, then there are a lot more problems going on.
As for what pet to us; the general standard is use a Ravager if you have LESS than 35% crit, if you have MORE than 35% crit, then go for a Windserpent. A Windserpent has a higher focus dump especially when paired with GftT. |
But yeah, for almost all fights, if your crit rate is high enough get a wind serpent. They will do a lot of damage with their focus dump, and they don't leave melee range much anymore to use it if you don't want to macro it.
As far as specing your pet, resists seem to keep my pet alive a lot more reliably than stam/armor buffs. The majority of magic damage in sunwell that's resistable is arcane and shadow damage on Kalecgos. Pets are immune to Brutallus's specials, and Felmyst's aura cannot be resisted. The Eredar twins do shadow and fire damage, though I'm not sure if pets are suseptible or if it can be resisted.
Intermission
Thanks for your reply, sorry about the hit/crit miscount. The extra number of hits could be explained by your 2nd lust aswell, and me having to haul my ass with a burn.
Our guild is not exactly hunters forthcoming, they rather have a lock leeching the BM buffs and a BM hunter shoved in to a tank group than give us full synergy . I switch between BM and SV on a regular basis, and had a blast last week pushing 2420 on Brut, thats why I was concerned with this week's subpar result, because a loss of 600 dps might not be a better thing.
Thanks for your reply, sorry about the hit/crit miscount. The extra number of hits could be explained by your 2nd lust aswell, and me having to haul my ass with a burn.
Our guild is not exactly hunters forthcoming, they rather have a lock leeching the BM buffs and a BM hunter shoved in to a tank group than give us full synergy . I switch between BM and SV on a regular basis, and had a blast last week pushing 2420 on Brut, thats why I was concerned with this week's subpar result, because a loss of 600 dps might not be a better thing.
Hi,
I know, it's not the right place to post this but i've read this thread always with much interest though my place is the beastmaster-bible. But your thoughts to max dps on brutallus brought into my mind: what would happen if i do as you do with a marksspec ... we had no raidduty in sunwell tonight and went for a short 2 hour clear run in hyjal. So i tried - not prepared - a 17/44/0 with skilled multi to do a 2:1 with one steady replaced by an multi and 3:2 or 1:1 while hasted. I have no idea wether this could really be an option and there are many things to try around. There are some haste items like shiv, khorium-ring and bindings to switch in as well as all 3 endbows available for me like archi-, illi- and crossbow. Raidsettings have been suboptimal, the spec maybe aswell so i don't put too much into my second places on the meter at for example kaz. I will respec tomorrow for raidprogress of course but your very nice conclusions an thoughts made me interested in testing out uncommon things.
Thanks very much for that.
I know, it's not the right place to post this but i've read this thread always with much interest though my place is the beastmaster-bible. But your thoughts to max dps on brutallus brought into my mind: what would happen if i do as you do with a marksspec ... we had no raidduty in sunwell tonight and went for a short 2 hour clear run in hyjal. So i tried - not prepared - a 17/44/0 with skilled multi to do a 2:1 with one steady replaced by an multi and 3:2 or 1:1 while hasted. I have no idea wether this could really be an option and there are many things to try around. There are some haste items like shiv, khorium-ring and bindings to switch in as well as all 3 endbows available for me like archi-, illi- and crossbow. Raidsettings have been suboptimal, the spec maybe aswell so i don't put too much into my second places on the meter at for example kaz. I will respec tomorrow for raidprogress of course but your very nice conclusions an thoughts made me interested in testing out uncommon things.
Thanks very much for that.
Haven't done Sunwell yet this week, but I took the 7/20/34 to BT and popped full consumables on Gorefiend to see how it stacked up. 2210 DPS without any heroisms.
Teron
Teron
Abron, the main purpose of Surv is the raid buff. Marks in it's current state is a mana hog that doesnt give back a whole lot at all.
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Originally Posted by abron
Hi,
I know, it's not the right place to post this but i've read this thread always with much interest though my place is the beastmaster-bible. But your thoughts to max dps on brutallus brought into my mind: what would happen if i do as you do with a marksspec ... we had no raidduty in sunwell tonight and went for a short 2 hour clear run in hyjal. So i tried - not prepared - a 17/44/0 with skilled multi to do a 2:1 with one steady replaced by an multi and 3:2 or 1:1 while hasted. I have no idea wether this could really be an option and there are many things to try around. There are some haste items like shiv, khorium-ring and bindings to switch in as well as all 3 endbows available for me like archi-, illi- and crossbow. Raidsettings have been suboptimal, the spec maybe aswell so i don't put too much into my second places on the meter at for example kaz. I will respec tomorrow for raidprogress of course but your very nice conclusions an thoughts made me interested in testing out uncommon things. Thanks very much for that. |
I've got 89 haste rating with items that I could push that up to around the 130 mark - did a 2:1 rotation that frequently dropped into 3:2 and 1:1 during RF/Heroism. Around 300 haste could make it a very intriguing proposition/possibility - but we're yet to see how gear itemisation will affect things, so I'll await with interest to see the drops from Mu'ru and Kil'jaeden, because there's not a lot in there that's hunter friendly from what I can see so far...
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Originally Posted by Vida
Abron, the main purpose of Surv is the raid buff. Marks in it's current state is a mana hog that doesnt give back a whole lot at all.
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We do have an sv due to raidbuff. Mana is no issue either, i did around 1,7k dps on kaz with only 1 piece sr. Changing to steady as main attack makes marks more viable. I just wanted to thank you sv guys for testing out rotations etc. I don't know if it comes to a point to be subpar and if i get to know, i'll post it on the bm forums. *g
Abron, didnt mean to step on anyone's toes, but, imo, the raiding trend atm is all about synergy. If you get an extra lust & Goa you can push 100's of dps more, if healers get Sprist, they can sustain raid healing forever, if you have a ret paladin, you have constant judgements up etc. Marks as it stands, gives almost no synergy at all, while being a very mana demanding spec with 1:1.5 rotation producing medium to sub-par damage. I would even go as far as saying that BM doesnt give back a whole lot, but thankfully to it's cheap sustainable high dps, it is what it is.
I'm having some trouble figuring out how to plug in the 2:1 rotation into cheeky's spreadsheet to evaluate some gear changes. It's probably really obvious and i'm just overlooking it but any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
You know, one thing I never see Hunters, BM or Survival, is Expose Weakness or Ferocious Inspiration...
Strange Bussines.
So I've been Toying around with a New Survival spec as of late. It's actually more of a hybrid, but I like to think of it as survival. The Main thing that I've been doing is Going all the way down MM until I get Combat Experience, and then Going down Survival to get EW, obviously getting Lighting Reflexes on the way.
But I noticed that In CE, it's worded differently than LR. I was wondering if depending on the order you specced, your stats would end up being different? This is something I havent' checked, and I'm not exactly the richest guy around, so constant respecces is not an option for me. But it's something I was just curious about.
But I noticed that In CE, it's worded differently than LR. I was wondering if depending on the order you specced, your stats would end up being different? This is something I havent' checked, and I'm not exactly the richest guy around, so constant respecces is not an option for me. But it's something I was just curious about.
Gear and shot cycle for SV
I need some advice. After reading a crap ton of these pages, i'm having a lot of trouble understanding what kind of shot cycle i should be using as an SV hunter. I have some haste gear like fists of mukoa and valestalkers girdle, the neck from halazzi and the cloak. I guess what i need to understand is at what point do I go from pure agi to haste gear? Also, how many physical dpsers should be in raid before an SV hunter is actually helpful and what % do they contribute to the raid? I should be getting my 4piece T6 in the next couple weeks beacuse we've got up to illidan on farm. I've got 2 piece now. Should i be using my 4piece T5 until then beacuse of the crit bonus to SS, or the 2-t5 and 2-t6 (head and gloves) for the more agi and crit i can get now? I'm usually stuck in the tank group because our phys dps group is shaman, druid, 2-rougues, BM hunter. Why DW 2 daggers of bad mojo when you can have 2 breeching comets? If I were to stay BM, how do I maximize my own personal dps while still buffing the raid enough to make gimping myself worthwhile? Sorry for any typos, but I'm pretty tired.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Evanescent
I'm having some trouble figuring out how to plug in the 2:1 rotation into cheeky's spreadsheet to evaluate some gear changes. It's probably really obvious and i'm just overlooking it but any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
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Last edited by Jimmysnuka : Today at 2:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Brut (sloppy but meh)
Here's my guild's really sloppy brut kill... only 1 lust.. 3 drummers, only 1 BM hunter, first time I've been survival since we were learning archi (Runishi is usually survival hunter) but I'd been reading up on this stuff and wanted to give it a whirl.
Wow Web Stats
Kinda crazy that a so-called "utility spec" can put out #1 dps on a dps intensive fight. 2237 dps... my personal best on this fight as BM was 2524, and that was with 2 bloodlusts.
Thanks to everyone who's done the research and shared with the community their results; everyone was completely blown away.
Now if DPS was all that mattered for twins... /sigh
Wow Web Stats
Kinda crazy that a so-called "utility spec" can put out #1 dps on a dps intensive fight. 2237 dps... my personal best on this fight as BM was 2524, and that was with 2 bloodlusts.
Thanks to everyone who's done the research and shared with the community their results; everyone was completely blown away.
Now if DPS was all that mattered for twins... /sigh
Last edited by Pippyn : 04/23/08 at 4:40 AM. Reason: clarity
I must jump on the 7/20/34 wagon even thought I don't own a DST (BIG SIGH HERE). Curious if quick shots + 53 haste + 3.0 speed + 20 ms = very tight 2:1 rotation. Should be 2.194 auto shot rate and 1.097 steady cast. In theory 2x steady should take 2.195 to cast but does the 0.02 latency make /cast macro turn the rotation to 1:1?
Meh. Will see later today when I respec and go to Blasted Lands.
Meh. Will see later today when I respec and go to Blasted Lands.
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Originally Posted by Osse
... but does the 0.02 latency make /cast macro turn the rotation to 1:1?
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It seems to me like the client can queue up a little part of the steady spam so that you are abled to shoot steadies with allmost no gap even if your latency is high.
I took that piece of information out of the BM thread.
I switched servers and guild this week and my new guild colleague came up with this:
Lets imagine we have a bow speed of 3.0
The sweet spot of haste for falling into a 3:2 rotation with the /cast/cast macro would be 140.
So with a full "drummer-gang" an amount of 60 passive haste (or more) should be enough for that.
I have to confess I could'nt test theese numbers yet because of missing haste gear atm.
Can anybody make a more profund analysis of these numbers, please?
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Originally Posted by Leighlu
I must be missing something.
Granted, I'm at a much lower point in progression (3/4 TK, 5/6 SSC, 1/5 MH), but my stats aren't terribly lower than those that are having success with this hasted-ness. (Raid buffed I end up around 2700AP, 45%+ crit) Rage Winterchill 7/XX/XX |
This is my WWS from Winterchill, doing the 2:1 click macro.
So it should be something to compare with, but compared with your guild, I would say you are where you should be.
Rage Winterchill 0/20/41
I got 2 drums, one heroism and had a BM in my grp. I also used a haste pot since mana wasnt an issue.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Edit : Double post ftl, please delete.
Last edited by Joheltro : 04/23/08 at 6:50 AM.
Suggestions
Hello,
I've been a survial hunter for a few weeks running a 0/20/41 spec. Ive been trying to get the handwoven 1:1.5 ratio down and im slowly getting there. I feel though that im doing something wrong and since im not the best theory crafter in the world im hoping people can point somethings out to me and if possible outline a 1:1.5 rotation better(macro or handwoven) because ive been doing it like this for no CC:Auto-SS-Arc-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Multi and for CC: AS-SS-Arc repeat untill arcane shot its back. Also my guild is 3/4TK 6/6 SSC 2/5 MH
heres a link to my Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory i dont have dst my other trinket is the bloodlust broach
And our MH(rage aneth)WWS
Wow Web Stats
i didnt have the ideal group i wanted for the night mainly a shaman but o well
I've been a survial hunter for a few weeks running a 0/20/41 spec. Ive been trying to get the handwoven 1:1.5 ratio down and im slowly getting there. I feel though that im doing something wrong and since im not the best theory crafter in the world im hoping people can point somethings out to me and if possible outline a 1:1.5 rotation better(macro or handwoven) because ive been doing it like this for no CC:Auto-SS-Arc-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Multi and for CC: AS-SS-Arc repeat untill arcane shot its back. Also my guild is 3/4TK 6/6 SSC 2/5 MH
heres a link to my Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory i dont have dst my other trinket is the bloodlust broach
And our MH(rage aneth)WWS
Wow Web Stats
i didnt have the ideal group i wanted for the night mainly a shaman but o well
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
While I'm not the most experienced hunter here, I've spent a long time in that area of content as a survival hunter (not there anymore but it's still fresh in the memory) so I feel I'm at least partially qualified to help. Please note that all this is my personal opinion.
Ok, first, spec. Don't look at my spec at the moment, I'm experimenting ahead of my gear. You'll almost certainly be better off with this. It's the basic 0/20/41 more-or-less. I'm afraid it's not very PvP friendly so you'd have to respec for that I guess. Once you get a bit more crit (about 33%) you could switch the points in TotH & EW the other way around without much EW loss and you'd gain a little mana regen. The 5 points in IAotH is more of a hindrance for you at the moment. As for macros and shot rotations, my personal preference was to not use macros. Instead, look for a wonderful addon called Quartz (get it even if you are using macros btw) and put the auto-attack swing timer next to the cast bar. Now learn the 1:1.5 rotation off by heart. That is Auto-Steady-Special-Auto-Steady repeat (where special is arcane or multishot). The other nice thing about 0/20/41 is readiness, handy in a tight spot or useful for rapid fire, readiness, rapid fire (using auto-steady aka 1:1 while under RF effects). Finally, gear. With your current gear you have no meta gem thus the best way to enchant and gem is agi, agi and agi. in everything. Eventually you'll want a helm for the 12 agi +3% crit dmg meta in which case you'll also want to maintain 2yellow2blue gems. You're over the hit cap so don't worry about sacrificing hit rating, 96 is the magic number for survival. Edit: Forgot to mention, Expertise does nothing for a hunter (unless you're in melee), there are many better trinkets available. |
I have a few more questions.
1) Hand weaving my shots, I've always just clicked on my steady shot or special (arcane/MS), whenever its CD was done. The disable mask sweeps around the icon, and as soon as the icon is enabled again I click on it. Is this what you mean by hand weaving he shots? I can certainly shoot in the order you're suggesting, ("That is Auto-Steady-Special-Auto-Steady repeat (where special is arcane or multishot)."), but its the timing I don't understand jhow to implement. Do I just click my shots as soon as they are available or do I need to wait to avoid "clipping".
2) And on the subject of clipping, I understand what it is, but I don't understand how to identify it. I do run Quartz, so what does clipping look like in Quartz? How do I know when its happening?
3) Hit rating. My guild leader said once I put 3 points in sure footed I wouldn't need to have 147 HR anymore, only 95. I replaced just a few of my HR gems and now my HR is 136, (well above the meager 95 he said I would need). But on Attumen last night in Kara, I was missing left and right. So what gives? What does my hit rating number on my character sheet need to say now that I am 100% sure footed?
Thanks
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Originally Posted by fmellish
3) Hit rating. My guild leader said once I put 3 points in sure footed I wouldn't need to have 147 HR anymore, only 95. I replaced just a few of my HR gems and now my HR is 136, (well above the meager 95 he said I would need). But on Attumen last night in Kara, I was missing left and right. So what gives? What does my hit rating number on my character sheet need to say now that I am 100% sure footed?
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EDIT: FYI 142 is the 0/3 Surefooted hit cap.
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Originally Posted by Jimmysnuka
100% hit with 3/3 surefooted is either 95 or 97, I can't recall exactly. I've never really paid much attention to Attunmen as he is a joke, but he does have a curse, perhaps you got hit with it and it has a -hit debuff to it?
EDIT: FYI 142 is the 0/3 Surefooted hit cap. |
Thank you very much. This means I can replace some hit gems with agil gems.
As far as Attumen, thanks for reminding me of his curse, that explains my dilemma.
From WowWiki:
"Intangible Presence: A reflectable AoE curse cast every 30 seconds that reduces chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks and spells by 50%. The area of the curse is centered on Attumen's current target."
Thanks
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Tried out 7/20/34 without DST on Brutallus today.
Wow Web Stats 1957 dps
No heroisms, 1 burn, only drummer in the group. Dont know if JoW dropped off at one point as I had to pop fel mana pot on one cd.
I got 1995 dps as 0/20/41 and that was with exact same group setup with one burn. I messed up readiness and missed one rapid fire so dont know how big increase it would have been. Even though I had shit RNG with auto shot crit this week I reckon 0/20/41 is better for hunters without DST.
Just compared my average damage to Pippyns and wow.. its.. huge. Awesome then. I guess CoR lock of FF druid were slacking.
Wow Web Stats 1957 dps
No heroisms, 1 burn, only drummer in the group. Dont know if JoW dropped off at one point as I had to pop fel mana pot on one cd.
I got 1995 dps as 0/20/41 and that was with exact same group setup with one burn. I messed up readiness and missed one rapid fire so dont know how big increase it would have been. Even though I had shit RNG with auto shot crit this week I reckon 0/20/41 is better for hunters without DST.
Just compared my average damage to Pippyns and wow.. its.. huge. Awesome then. I guess CoR lock of FF druid were slacking.
Last edited by Osse : 04/23/08 at 3:47 PM.
Quick question. What is the DPS difference between Windserpent spamming Lightning breath, and a Ravager spamming Gore? Windserpent is fairly cool and all but, I much prefer the Ravager for many reasons non of which are DPS related. This is in terms of a Survival Hunter at about 45% crit rate all raid buffed.
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Originally Posted by silentsldr
Hello,
I've been a survial hunter for a few weeks running a 0/20/41 spec. Ive been trying to get the handwoven 1:1.5 ratio down and im slowly getting there. I feel though that im doing something wrong and since im not the best theory crafter in the world im hoping people can point somethings out to me and if possible outline a 1:1.5 rotation better(macro or handwoven) because ive been doing it like this for no CC:Auto-SS-Arc-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Multi and for CC: AS-SS-Arc repeat untill arcane shot its back. Also my guild is 3/4TK 6/6 SSC 2/5 MH |
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Originally Posted by fmellish
I have a few more questions.
1) Hand weaving my shots, I've always just clicked on my steady shot or special (arcane/MS), whenever its CD was done. The disable mask sweeps around the icon, and as soon as the icon is enabled again I click on it. Is this what you mean by hand weaving he shots? I can certainly shoot in the order you're suggesting, ("That is Auto-Steady-Special-Auto-Steady repeat (where special is arcane or multishot)."), but its the timing I don't understand jhow to implement. Do I just click my shots as soon as they are available or do I need to wait to avoid "clipping". 2) And on the subject of clipping, I understand what it is, but I don't understand how to identify it. I do run Quartz, so what does clipping look like in Quartz? How do I know when its happening? 3) Hit rating. My guild leader said once I put 3 points in sure footed I wouldn't need to have 147 HR anymore, only 95. I replaced just a few of my HR gems and now my HR is 136, (well above the meager 95 he said I would need). But on Attumen last night in Kara, I was missing left and right. So what gives? What does my hit rating number on my character sheet need to say now that I am 100% sure footed? |
auto-steady-special-auto-steady-auto-steady-special-auto-steady (repeat)
Where the special is either arcane shot or multishot with the following caveats:
- All of the specials can be arcane if you have IAS (which I personally do not prefer since you are spending ranks to get what you can accomplish using multi too) in which case the rotation is simplified to:
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady (repeat)
- If you do not have IAS, then one of the specials needs to be arcane shot and the other multishot. Which you use first is preferential, but I suggest whichever shot currently does the most damage for you currently since you will be doing it more often with resuming your rotation after interruptions, although then you may have the multi CD to worry about, in which case you use arcane instead. You also will not be casting your arcane shot everytime it comes off CD, which is every 6s. Instead, depending on weapon speed, you will be casting it about every 10s or so.
Note that this has exactly 2 auto-steadies between every special. (Silentsldr, your rotation listed will result in clipping since you are doing back to back specials after consecutive auto-steadies. If you added another auto-steady at the end, then you would have a successful 1:1.4 rotation in which you are using specials after 2 of 5 steadies or 40% of them.)
For the CC 1:1.3 rotation (a special after every 3rd steady), it should look like:
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady (repeat)
When unhasted, you arcane shot will become available somewhere between the second and third steady casts.
If you are hand-weaving, here is the method that I use, which is one of many.
I have a /cast /cast auto-steady macro since that is pretty reliable for me. On either side of that, I have the arcane shot and multishot abilities so that I can monitor their cooldowns. I start my rotation by hitting the auto-steady macro. The next shot in my rotation, whether it is steady, arcane, or multishot, is cast during the last 0.5 seconds of the current steady cast. If everything is performed correctly, the auto shots will cast at the appropriate locations.
I have not found any ideal macros that fully implement the standard 1:1.5 rotations and works under all situations for all people, so I do as I mentioned above.
Concerning clipping, there are several ways to know whether you are doing it or not. These include:
1) Visually watching the shots. If you have the rotation down correctly, you should see an extra shot being cast that you are not explicitly casting go off in all the places an auto should in the rotation shortly after cast the shot before it. So, on the steady-auto part of the rotation, you should see an auto cast shortly after the completion of the steady cast. If one the specials part, you should see pretty much the same event except for the special cast between the steady and auto.
2) Having a monitoring tool like Quartz. On my Quartz is a little gray autoshot bar that counts the time down to the next autoshot above my actual cast bar. If this autoshot bar gets interrupted, you have clipped your autoshot.
3) Check your shot log to make sure that your autos are firing in all of the correct locations
For me, clipping usually occurs when I cast my next attack too early in the current steady shot cast.
The hit cap is indeed 95.
Ok, so I understand what clipping is now.
I watched in Quartz and saw that every time I clicked Aimed Shot it took so long that it blocked an autoshot.
But here's the deal, if I just stuck with Steady shot, Arcane shot and Multishot, I never had clipping, those all cast quick enough. I would just wait for a good time to cast a special to prevent any clipping.
So hand weaving my shots was very simple and effective.
So why do people need macros? Is it simply to push the envelope and see how many specials you can cram in between autos?
Thanks
I watched in Quartz and saw that every time I clicked Aimed Shot it took so long that it blocked an autoshot.
But here's the deal, if I just stuck with Steady shot, Arcane shot and Multishot, I never had clipping, those all cast quick enough. I would just wait for a good time to cast a special to prevent any clipping.
So hand weaving my shots was very simple and effective.
So why do people need macros? Is it simply to push the envelope and see how many specials you can cram in between autos?
Thanks
Mainly because after a while you get cross eyed watching two bars for 4 hours per night!
A macro is almost as good in ideal situations and is usually better when you're not quite on the ball.
A macro is almost as good in ideal situations and is usually better when you're not quite on the ball.
It amazes me that a year after release of TBC, people are still shooting pre-TBC rotations.
Aimed shot doesn't work in current rotations, and it's usefulness as a MD pull shot is arguable. The only use I find for it anymore is to cut down the target's healing recieved due to the recently added debuff. (works wonders in heroic bot on the last boss)
You're not the only one... 2/3 hunters in my guild that have asked for help in increasing their dps.. that was a major cause.
Aimed shot doesn't work in current rotations, and it's usefulness as a MD pull shot is arguable. The only use I find for it anymore is to cut down the target's healing recieved due to the recently added debuff. (works wonders in heroic bot on the last boss)
You're not the only one... 2/3 hunters in my guild that have asked for help in increasing their dps.. that was a major cause.
A little pet help here please. I am finally breaking my 2set t5 in favor of t6, we are currently 5/5mh and 5/9bt. I use a windserpent and haven't used mend pet in months based on the 2 piece bonus, so I am a bit the times in worrying about my pet since I essentially had a hot on it all the time. What is the best way to spec a pet to keep it alive. I think I can dump bite altogether since it very seldom goes off since I'm spamming LB. Is it best to max out fire and shadow and the rest in health?
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Originally Posted by Osse
Tried out 7/20/34 without DST on Brutallus today.
Wow Web Stats 1957 dps No heroisms, 1 burn, only drummer in the group. Dont know if JoW dropped off at one point as I had to pop fel mana pot on one cd. I got 1995 dps as 0/20/41 and that was with exact same group setup with one burn. I messed up readiness and missed one rapid fire so dont know how big increase it would have been. Even though I had shit RNG with auto shot crit this week I reckon 0/20/41 is better for hunters without DST. Just compared my average damage to Pippyns and wow.. its.. huge. Awesome then. I guess CoR lock of FF druid were slacking. |
Juggen
Pippyn a question u have 61 haste rating on a 3.0 bow which macro did u use can u post it would be nice and i wonder if its worth to have the crossbow of badges and have haste or ?? what shall i have as survival kinda new to the surv spec. and is there an armor pen cap u can have or ?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I'm interested in trying out this new survival setup, just trying to figure out what rotation would be best to use? I have a DST, the badge bow, and a Bristleblitz. I run with 25 passive haste currently and t6 4pc.
So assuming that should i be using a 2:1 or a 3:2 or something else entirely?
And also I notice the two of you have different point sets in toth and ew. Is there a crit chance where one or the other becomes more viable?
So assuming that should i be using a 2:1 or a 3:2 or something else entirely?
And also I notice the two of you have different point sets in toth and ew. Is there a crit chance where one or the other becomes more viable?
Last edited by Equalizer : 04/24/08 at 8:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Equalizer
And also I notice the two of you have different point sets in toth and ew. Is there a crit chance where one or the other becomes more viable?
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My belief is that you should almost always have 3/3 in EW since the crit rate at which the difference in total raid DPS between 2/3 EW and 3/3 EW becomes near zero is unrealistically high. Otherwise, you are costing yourself and your raid too much DPS.
For example using my character with his 1:1.5 rotation, when fully buffed I have 51.82% crit and my EW uptime is 99.20% for an average EW of 304.62. And my TotH provides 13.68% average mana recovery per shot.
Now if I went 3/3 TotH and 2/3 EW, my EW uptime is 93.71% for an average EW of 287.76. Having only 2/3 in EW cost my raid 16.86 AP or about 33.72 DPS. In addition, my personal DPS dropped by 4.8. So that is a total loss of 38.52 raid DPS. On the rother hand, my average mana return is up to 20.73% for a gain of 7.05%.
Please keep in mind that these numbers were done with performing the perfect rotation, which as you all know does not realistically happen. When not performing the ideal rotation, the additional EW uptime from 3/3 EW is even greater resulting in even a greater loss of DPS by going 2/3. While on the other hand, the non-perfect rotation results in less shots and less return from TotH.
To illustrate the effect of a non-ideal rotation, I created one with some small shot gaps to simulate moving and for a couple shots in the rotation missed or mistimed. With that, 3/3 EW gave 302.27 average EW AP and 13.58% average mana return while 3/3 TotH gave 278.86 and 20.57. This is a total raid DPS loss of 46.82 + 6.05 = 52.87 DPS for a gain of almost 7% mana.
Now even if I artifically give myself 181 crit to get 60% crit rate, which is very high, 3/3 EW and 2/3 TotH provides 306.36 average EW AP and 15.84% mana return. 2/3 EW and 3/3 TotH provides 296.12 and 24.01%. This is still a loss of about 20.4 raid DPS and 3.1 personal DPS for a total raid loss of 23.5 DPS when performing a perfect rotation. Once again with a non-perfectly performed rotation the benefit of 3/3 EW is greater and that of 3/3 TotH is smaller.
Please note that the increase in crit already improves the benefit of TotH, meaning to me even less reason to go to 3/3 TotH at higher crit rates.
The only situation in which I personally see 3/3 TotH being more beneficial is the case in which 3/3 TotH is needed to allow the hunter to not have to use any mana potions and allow them to use haste potions instead and that the extra DPS from using the haste potions would make up for the loss in DPS from having only 2/3 EW. Frankly, I do not forsee this situation being common, especially considering that the rotations that get the best benefit from haste is a steady shot rotation, which already uses less mana than a 1:1.5 rotation, and will therefore provide less of a mana return via TotH.
Raid Composition to acommodate the SV and BM hunter
As the topic says, considering the numbers now being posted by BM + SV hunters its high time to look at how best to compile a "generic" raid to support the Hunter Group. Obviously we all tend to stack exact raid compositions when learning new bosses to suit. But the main problem I have as a RL is getting full support for a hunter group whilst balancing the raid.
To be specific the generic premise I'm going to set is 8 healers, 2 Tanks and 15 DPS, actually looking at that you could say use Brutallus as a setup criteria.
So, instead of hunters generally whining along the lines of "I'll just drop a Shammy outa my ass to give heroism" etc lets make a valid case as to how Raid leaders should be setting up groups to support Hunters, more specifically SV Hunters, in these high DPS and haste requiring times.
So lets try see what we get.
Warrior MT
Druid OT
Pally
Lock
Druid Resto
Rogue
Rogue
Shammy Enh
Warrior DPS
Pally Retri
Priest Holy
Priest Holy
Priest Shadow
Shammy Resto
Shammy Resto
Mage
Mage
Pally
Lock
Lock
Shammy Resto
Druid Feral or Oomkin
Hunter SV
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Swap in a resto for second heroism. All 5 members of group 5 should be "made" to go Leatherworking to ensure complete drum rotations are up on bosses. Is this as good as it gets?
As the topic says, considering the numbers now being posted by BM + SV hunters its high time to look at how best to compile a "generic" raid to support the Hunter Group. Obviously we all tend to stack exact raid compositions when learning new bosses to suit. But the main problem I have as a RL is getting full support for a hunter group whilst balancing the raid.
To be specific the generic premise I'm going to set is 8 healers, 2 Tanks and 15 DPS, actually looking at that you could say use Brutallus as a setup criteria.
So, instead of hunters generally whining along the lines of "I'll just drop a Shammy outa my ass to give heroism" etc lets make a valid case as to how Raid leaders should be setting up groups to support Hunters, more specifically SV Hunters, in these high DPS and haste requiring times.
So lets try see what we get.
Warrior MT
Druid OT
Pally
Lock
Druid Resto
Rogue
Rogue
Shammy Enh
Warrior DPS
Pally Retri
Priest Holy
Priest Holy
Priest Shadow
Shammy Resto
Shammy Resto
Mage
Mage
Pally
Lock
Lock
Shammy Resto
Druid Feral or Oomkin
Hunter SV
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Swap in a resto for second heroism. All 5 members of group 5 should be "made" to go Leatherworking to ensure complete drum rotations are up on bosses. Is this as good as it gets?
Tiberium,
You gotta spread shamans around! But that's usually what the "hunter group" looks like in my guild's raids. Ends up with a resto shaman, feral druid, and whatever hunters are in the raid. A lot of the time, however, I'm the only hunter in a raid and end up in whatever group is short a person. It's depressing, but I always get a shaman who will drop grace of air for a fight that requires maximized DPS. Yay, DPS!
You gotta spread shamans around! But that's usually what the "hunter group" looks like in my guild's raids. Ends up with a resto shaman, feral druid, and whatever hunters are in the raid. A lot of the time, however, I'm the only hunter in a raid and end up in whatever group is short a person. It's depressing, but I always get a shaman who will drop grace of air for a fight that requires maximized DPS. Yay, DPS!
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Originally Posted by Kurkis
Macro2= /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
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Need a little help with my hit rating.
Yesterday I received the fourth part (chest) of my T6 set. Since it replaces the T5 chest piece (along with the T5 Shoulder in favor for the [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]) I’ll be loosing a lot of hit rating.
Armory is linked on the left side.
It’s 58 hit rating at the moment, I need 78.
I was thinking about socketing 20 hit rating first (2 x 10 gem) but it seems like a bad idea to me. Another Option is to get [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]. It has some hit rating and a nice haste rating boost too. Or swap the Necklace for [Worgen Claw Necklace]. But I rather keep this slot open for other options lateron.
Hmm, tough decision.
What would you do?
Plus, would it be wise to change my bracers against [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] due to haste rating? Plus Vanir’s Set I would have around 70 haste rating. Should be quite ok for my 3.0 bow and steady:auto rotation.
Regards
Yesterday I received the fourth part (chest) of my T6 set. Since it replaces the T5 chest piece (along with the T5 Shoulder in favor for the [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]) I’ll be loosing a lot of hit rating.
Armory is linked on the left side.
It’s 58 hit rating at the moment, I need 78.
I was thinking about socketing 20 hit rating first (2 x 10 gem) but it seems like a bad idea to me. Another Option is to get [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]. It has some hit rating and a nice haste rating boost too. Or swap the Necklace for [Worgen Claw Necklace]. But I rather keep this slot open for other options lateron.
Hmm, tough decision.
What would you do?
Plus, would it be wise to change my bracers against [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] due to haste rating? Plus Vanir’s Set I would have around 70 haste rating. Should be quite ok for my 3.0 bow and steady:auto rotation.
Regards
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Originally Posted by Niouk
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The mechanics are explained on this thread
Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros
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Originally Posted by Chanii
Need a little help with my hit rating.
Yesterday I received the fourth part (chest) of my T6 set. Since it replaces the T5 chest piece (along with the T5 Shoulder in favor for the [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]) I’ll be loosing a lot of hit rating. Armory is linked on the left side. It’s 58 hit rating at the moment, I need 78. Plus, would it be wise to change my bracers against [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] due to haste rating? Plus Vanir’s Set I would have around 70 haste rating. Should be quite ok for my 3.0 bow and steady:auto rotation |
[Tsunami Talisman] [Madness of the Betrayer] [Boneweave Girdle] [Quickstrider Moccasins] [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [Insidious Bands] and [Ring of Deceitful Intent] not to mention the Gronstalker bits from Sunwell.
As for Haste rating the best combo as I see it is [Shivering Felspine] coupled with [Cloak of Fiends]
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Thanks for the response.
Problem is I need a solution now, otherwise I can’t socket my T6 chest piece. BT and Hyjal is already clear, ergo for this week no more chance on new items. Plus I don’t have enough points to get them anyway.
Ergo, I’ll just buy the Vanir’s set. 58 plus 21 from Vanir makes it 79. Perfect. This way I can socket anything I want into the chest.
Of course, lateron I'll try to get my hands on the Council trinket and the Sunwell spear.
Edit:
Thinking of badge items: The "chicken" bow is, imho, one of the best BM bow so far. But the more I think about it, the more it also makes sense for SV. Has anyone tested it so far in comparison to other?
Stupid question concerning bows: How bad is Illidans bow for SV really? I know its not the best I'd love to keep it out of style reasons.
Edit2:
WWS Loading...
Last night with 2 x T5 and 3 x T6.
Problem is I need a solution now, otherwise I can’t socket my T6 chest piece. BT and Hyjal is already clear, ergo for this week no more chance on new items. Plus I don’t have enough points to get them anyway.
Ergo, I’ll just buy the Vanir’s set. 58 plus 21 from Vanir makes it 79. Perfect. This way I can socket anything I want into the chest.
Of course, lateron I'll try to get my hands on the Council trinket and the Sunwell spear.
Edit:
Thinking of badge items: The "chicken" bow is, imho, one of the best BM bow so far. But the more I think about it, the more it also makes sense for SV. Has anyone tested it so far in comparison to other?
Stupid question concerning bows: How bad is Illidans bow for SV really? I know its not the best I'd love to keep it out of style reasons.
Edit2:
WWS Loading...
Last night with 2 x T5 and 3 x T6.
Last edited by Chanii : 04/25/08 at 8:12 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Gearing for hit post Illidan and pre Sunwell is a pain but having killed Illidan there are really loads of options to raise your Hit rating by 20, the most popular options are:-
[Tsunami Talisman] [Madness of the Betrayer] [Boneweave Girdle] [Quickstrider Moccasins] [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [Insidious Bands] and [Ring of Deceitful Intent] not to mention the Gronstalker bits from Sunwell. |
Sorry, I can't view your armory ATM to see what you currently have, but here are some additional thoughts...
[Ring of Deceitful Intent] is nice as a hit option; however, I personally try whatever other options I can to avoid using it since it is a severe DPS loss from wearing any of of the following DPS rings: [Angelista's Revenge], [Band of the Eternal Champion], or [Signet of Primal Wrath].
[Boneweave Girdle] is also nice if you have it, but if you do not and do not have a hit belt option, I would suggest [Belt of the Silent Path]. I has good DPS, and its 23 hit rating is nice. And it is immediately available if you have the badges to purchase it from the new badge vendor. I believe it requires 75 badges. Without knowing your current belt and weapons and haste rating, I would personally prefer using this over getting the badge fist, although the haste on the badge fist could make it superior.
Another badge option for hit rating that does not break up your T6 slots is [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] with 14 hit rating. In fact, the hit rating on this ranged weapon is part of the reason that it provides better DPS over other options like [Bristleblitz Striker] for some people since they lose less DPS using the badge xbow to get their hit cap then by switching out another piece or regemming. Unfortunately, not everyone has 150 badges sitting around.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 04/25/08 at 1:23 PM.
whitefyst, thank you so much for your thoughts and time.
Its a real bummer that the EU Armory is down so often and frequently.
2 x [Messenger of Fate] with 2 x 20 agi
[Black Bow of the Betrayer] with Crit Scope
T6 Helm with agi
[Necklace of the Deep] with 2 x agi
T6 Chest unsocket so far
[Steadying Bracers]
T6 Gloves with agi
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt] with 2 x agi
T6 Leggings with agi
[Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] with 2 x agi
[Angelista's Revenge]
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
Its a real bummer that the EU Armory is down so often and frequently.
2 x [Messenger of Fate] with 2 x 20 agi
[Black Bow of the Betrayer] with Crit Scope
T6 Helm with agi
[Necklace of the Deep] with 2 x agi
T6 Chest unsocket so far
[Steadying Bracers]
T6 Gloves with agi
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt] with 2 x agi
T6 Leggings with agi
[Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] with 2 x agi
[Angelista's Revenge]
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Raid Composition to acommodate the SV and BM hunter
As the topic says, considering the numbers now being posted by BM + SV hunters its high time to look at how best to compile a "generic" raid to support the Hunter Group. Obviously we all tend to stack exact raid compositions when learning new bosses to suit. But the main problem I have as a RL is getting full support for a hunter group whilst balancing the raid. To be specific the generic premise I'm going to set is 8 healers, 2 Tanks and 15 DPS, actually looking at that you could say use Brutallus as a setup criteria. So, instead of hunters generally whining along the lines of "I'll just drop a Shammy outa my ass to give heroism" etc lets make a valid case as to how Raid leaders should be setting up groups to support Hunters, more specifically SV Hunters, in these high DPS and haste requiring times. So lets try see what we get. Warrior MT Druid OT Pally Lock Druid Resto Rogue Rogue Shammy Enh Warrior DPS Pally Retri Priest Holy Priest Holy Priest Shadow Shammy Resto Shammy Resto Mage Mage Pally Lock Lock Shammy Resto Druid Feral or Oomkin Hunter SV Hunter BM Hunter BM Swap in a resto for second heroism. All 5 members of group 5 should be "made" to go Leatherworking to ensure complete drum rotations are up on bosses. Is this as good as it gets? |
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Originally Posted by alienangel
While the hunter group looks delicious, as does the melee group, the caster group looks horrible. 2 mages, 2 locks and a non-ret pally? That's no synergy, no heroism, no mana.
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Also, not even one spriest? Poor mages.
Anyway, let's not turn this into a "post your optimal raid group" discussion. I would suggest looking at your "usual" raid comp and deciding from there. You posted the optimal hunter group (well, almost, but the most likely hunter group you'll ever see). Why are people discussing this still? Hasn't it been answered in 4-5 different threads already? (From hunter specific threads to raid leading threads)
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
So, instead of hunters generally whining along the lines of "I'll just drop a Shammy outa my ass to give heroism" etc lets make a valid case as to how Raid leaders should be setting up groups to support Hunters, more specifically SV Hunters, in these high DPS and haste requiring times.
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Your position has been that we should all gut our guilds and/or raiding parties to support one person's SV build.
It's not gonna happen. Most of us can't make the leap from a T5 raiding guild into a cutting edge Sunwell guild, nor would we.
You have shown that you and others in similar situations can achieve great things with a SV build hunter. I have learned from the discussion surrounding the theory and results, and I appreciate what you've done. But your assertation that anyone not doing your method, at any cost, is offensive. It does nothing to change the situation I, or others like me, are in. It doesn't get me a Shaman in my group when we only have two raiding shammies in the guild.
I'm working on it. We're recruiting. We're raising raiding minimums. It takes time.
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Originally Posted by Chanii
2 x [Messenger of Fate] with 2 x 20 agi
[Black Bow of the Betrayer] with Crit Scope T6 Helm with agi [Necklace of the Deep] with 2 x agi T6 Chest unsocket so far [Steadying Bracers] T6 Gloves with agi [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] with 2 x agi T6 Leggings with agi [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] with 2 x agi [Angelista's Revenge] [Band of the Eternal Champion] [Hourglass of the Unraveller] [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] |
I see 2 problems you need to fix. You are 20 short of hit cap and you have no blue and yellow sockets to meet hit cap. Having both problems complicates the situayion. Since you need an immediate fix, that implies something from badges and that you have no other good option in the bank. Options include:
1) [Item 'belt of the silent patch' not found!]: It has 23 HR to get you over the cap, but DPS/EW-wise it is inferior to [Don Alejandro's Money Belt].
2) [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] (or the faster version): 21 HR will put you over the cap, but this item is poor for SV due to loss of 28 buffed agility relatively to current off-hand, although the haste may make up for loss of personal DPS but I would not think also the loss in raid DPS.
3) [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]: 14 HR gets you close with a gem being able to get you within 1.
4) Going back to T5 shoulders instead of [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]
Using T5 shoulders option as the base with a delicate, jagged, and glinting in chest and putting a shifting in your boots, you meet both the socket requirements and hit cap by 1. With the 1:1.5 rotation used and assuming full buffs, this gives 1489.63 DPS, 143.76 s to OOM, and 295.57 EW AP.
Using the badge belt with a delicate and having a delicate and 2xjagged in your chest (boots are 2 delicates again), you meet the hit cap by 3 and have 1491.99 DPS, 136.76 s to OOM, and 290.53 EW AP. So your personal DPS improves by a little more than 2; however, your EW AP drops by about 5 or 10 raid DPS (assuming 0.25 conversion and 8 other physical DPS), making it a loss of about 8 raid DPS plus a loss in 7 seconds to OOM.
Using the fist and the same gemming as for the belt option, you make the hit cap by 1 and have 1497.16 DPS, 136.1 s to OOM, and 285.35 EW AP. So your personal DPS improves by 7.5; however, you EW AP drops by 10.2 AP or 20.4 raid DPS for a new raid DPS loss of about 13 DPS in addition to the 7.5 seconds less to OOM.
Using the crossbow with the same gemming option as for the T5 shoulder so get the 3 hit socket bonus from the boots, you make the hit cap by 1 again and have 1495.21 DPS, 118.35 s to OOM, 292.06 EW AP. So personal DPS increases by 5.6 but your EW AP drops 3.5 or 7 raid DPS for a DPS loss of 1.4. You also lose 25.4 s to OOM.
Hence, my suggestion to you is save your badges and wear your T5 shoulders to get your hit cap since that seems the best option and the most affordable (its free except for the gemming which you have to do regardless).
Maybe I missed it but after reading through all the G15 posts I couldn't find anything showing how to bind a G button to a more accessbile key to press. I have the macros working if I were to press G1 lets say but I can't get it to work by pressing another key like R or T
Ooops
Posted the wrong link before. For those that are interested this is where the 2 part macro originated and posts explaining the development are in there. Its a good // funny read anyhoo WoW Forums -> New macro DOESN"T clip autos!
The macro should be atributed to Tiro of Overraided see post 78 for the 1st reference to actually splitting the macro into 2 separate parts
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Originally Posted by Niouk
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The macro should be atributed to Tiro of Overraided see post 78 for the 1st reference to actually splitting the macro into 2 separate parts
Thanks Tiberium, just what I was looking for.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Raid Composition to acommodate the SV and BM hunter
As the topic says, considering the numbers now being posted by BM + SV hunters its high time to look at how best to compile a "generic" raid to support the Hunter Group. Obviously we all tend to stack exact raid compositions when learning new bosses to suit. But the main problem I have as a RL is getting full support for a hunter group whilst balancing the raid. To be specific the generic premise I'm going to set is 8 healers, 2 Tanks and 15 DPS, actually looking at that you could say use Brutallus as a setup criteria. So, instead of hunters generally whining along the lines of "I'll just drop a Shammy outa my ass to give heroism" etc lets make a valid case as to how Raid leaders should be setting up groups to support Hunters, more specifically SV Hunters, in these high DPS and haste requiring times. So lets try see what we get. Warrior MT Druid OT Pally Lock Druid Resto Rogue Rogue Shammy Enh Warrior DPS Pally Retri Priest Holy Priest Holy Priest Shadow Shammy Resto Shammy Resto Mage Mage Pally Lock Lock Shammy Resto Druid Feral or Oomkin Hunter SV Hunter BM Hunter BM Swap in a resto for second heroism. All 5 members of group 5 should be "made" to go Leatherworking to ensure complete drum rotations are up on bosses. Is this as good as it gets? |
What is "optimal" for your guild may not be fore another. Its not a matter of recruiting more or telling your raid leader to do better...every guild is different. Some are more caster friendly, and other are melee friendly. It also depends on the fight and what type of group set up is needed for that specific situation.
My last guild was one of the top 3 PvE guilds in the US and the one I am in now is ranked #1 - about 2 weeks ago I was put in an "optimal" Hunter group consisting of 2BM + Feral + Shaman + Me. Now then, I wont lie - my DPS was amazing. The best DPS I have ever done as Survival. However, oddly enough, Warlocks, Mages, Rogues...all had lower DPS. Its a trade off...and in most cases, making an optimal Hunter group like that will be overall less Raid DPS than spreading out the Hunters to caster/melee groups (give 3 warlocks +3% DPS, give melee +5% crit from Feral and +3% from BM).
So while it was fun to have the "dream team" group I did for that one night, it is no where necessary or needed to make a group like that. At Sunwell level of raiding, 5% crit from a Feral does more for your personal DPS than it does to help keep EW up; and GoA, while nice, does not usually out preform giving the casters WoA or the melee WF. Also, giving +6% DPS (FIx2) to 3 of the lowest base DPS specs (Survival, Feral, Sham) is not the best way to "optimize". But again...this is a guild to guild thing.
But again, I am very content with the DPS I produce - because I look at the whole picture, and not just "whats best for me"...because whats best for me, is not always available, and its not always best for the raid.
Last edited by Sore82 : 04/26/08 at 1:10 PM.
Tank
Tank
Resto Druid
Paladin
Afliction Lock
Rogue
Rogue
Enhance Shaman
Retribution Paladin
Arms Warrior
Destruction Lock
Destruction Lock
Shadow Priest
Mage
Resto Shaman
Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Feral Druid
Resto Shaman
Holy Priest
Holy Priest
Shadow Priest
Paladin
Paladin
Here’s something similar to what my guild runs. When it comes down to it, you have to play to your strengths.
That being said, this setup provides everyone in the raid with the buffs they need to put out good dps. Occasionally we will run more mages so they get shifted into the 2nd shadow priest group, pushing some of our healers without a Shadowpriest. If they end up needing the mana we adjust things. We often run with three resto shaman as well meaning the 2nd shadowpriest and mage group get totems.
Well said. Our hunters have always been strong DPSers and we have been light on mages hence our group setup. If you are in a guild that runs three rogues, three locks and three mages, like Sore’s then enjoy getting put into the tank group.
I honestly can’t believe that statement was made in a post about raid synergy. Sure you can stick a BM Hunter in a Caster or Melee group and give them 3% damage, but what does the hunter get back? When you put thought into it raid synergy is really a game of I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine. Look at a typical melee group of 4
Enhance Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Arms Warrior
Can you stick a BM Hunter there for 3% damage. Sure you can, but the BM hunter gets nothing to speak of from being their. Their pet will get some more AP from Strength of Earth, Unleashed Fury and Battle Shout which is nothing compared to what they would get from Grace of Air, LotP and another FI. Worse yet, they are taking up a spot that could be taken by someone who would benefit from all the melee buffs. If you start putting BM Hunters with casters then the problem is even more pronounced.
With that being said, if we don’t have the right people on, the Hunter group is usually the first group to lose the shaman and/or the feral druid. If you bother to bring more than one hunter to a raid then you should put some effort into giving them some DPS support. Speaking from strictly an optimization point of view, you’re better off bringing another caster than just a single BM hunter that gets stuck in a caster group. Again you have to do the best you can with the 25 people you have.
It seriously irks me when people post their garbage and hate about hunters getting good group make ups in a thread about optimizing hunter DPS. Given the right raid makeup you can easily get a perfect Hunter group without gimping the melee group or the caster group.
Even the makeup that Tiberium posted isn’t bad if you switch around the Shadow Priest and a resto Shaman.
Tank
Resto Druid
Paladin
Afliction Lock
Rogue
Rogue
Enhance Shaman
Retribution Paladin
Arms Warrior
Destruction Lock
Destruction Lock
Shadow Priest
Mage
Resto Shaman
Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Feral Druid
Resto Shaman
Holy Priest
Holy Priest
Shadow Priest
Paladin
Paladin
Here’s something similar to what my guild runs. When it comes down to it, you have to play to your strengths.
That being said, this setup provides everyone in the raid with the buffs they need to put out good dps. Occasionally we will run more mages so they get shifted into the 2nd shadow priest group, pushing some of our healers without a Shadowpriest. If they end up needing the mana we adjust things. We often run with three resto shaman as well meaning the 2nd shadowpriest and mage group get totems.
| What is "optimal" for your guild may not be fore another. Its not a matter of recruiting more or telling your raid leader to do better...every guild is different. Some are more caster friendly, and other are melee friendly. It also depends on the fight and what type of group set up is needed for that specific situation. |
| Its a trade off...and in most cases, making an optimal Hunter group like that will be overall less Raid DPS than spreading out the Hunters to caster/melee groups (give 3 warlocks +3% DPS, give melee +5% crit from Feral and +3% from BM). |
Enhance Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Arms Warrior
Can you stick a BM Hunter there for 3% damage. Sure you can, but the BM hunter gets nothing to speak of from being their. Their pet will get some more AP from Strength of Earth, Unleashed Fury and Battle Shout which is nothing compared to what they would get from Grace of Air, LotP and another FI. Worse yet, they are taking up a spot that could be taken by someone who would benefit from all the melee buffs. If you start putting BM Hunters with casters then the problem is even more pronounced.
With that being said, if we don’t have the right people on, the Hunter group is usually the first group to lose the shaman and/or the feral druid. If you bother to bring more than one hunter to a raid then you should put some effort into giving them some DPS support. Speaking from strictly an optimization point of view, you’re better off bringing another caster than just a single BM hunter that gets stuck in a caster group. Again you have to do the best you can with the 25 people you have.
It seriously irks me when people post their garbage and hate about hunters getting good group make ups in a thread about optimizing hunter DPS. Given the right raid makeup you can easily get a perfect Hunter group without gimping the melee group or the caster group.
Even the makeup that Tiberium posted isn’t bad if you switch around the Shadow Priest and a resto Shaman.
There is a difference between optimizing Hunter DPS and optimizing raid DPS...and again, this comes down to a guild to guild situation. A Survival Hunter gives nothing to a group, so them being in a Hunter optimized group makes even less sense than a BM Hunter being in a caster group.
1 BM Hunter in a caster group (Warlock x3 lets say, and usually paired with a Shaman for the last spot), gives at least +9% DPS to one of the top DPS classes in the game right now. In most cases, an equally geared Warlock will out DPS a Hunter when it comes to base damage...same can be said for a rogue...although BM/Warlock/Rogue are all very good DPS classes. However when you stack a Hunter group like that you are giving a minimal amount of the +DPS to people in the raid. Each of the BM Hunters will get +3% giving +6% DPS of your TOP DPS classes. The Survival/Feral/Shaman are on the bottom end of the DPS list...they are more utility than anything and while they add DPS to the group, giving any of them +6% DPS is not "optimizing". You also move the other BM Hunter to the Melee group and you are giving 2-3 Rogues +3% DPS also. By spreading out the 2 BM Hunters, they may get less out of the group but they are giving a lot more back to Raid DPS.
Again, a lot of this comes down to guild make-ups and what classes are "top" for your guild. Trying to come up with a "whats best" list of how to do raids is not really the point of this forum. I think people just need to step back and look at the bigger picture sometimes, and accept the fact that thay might not be placed in such optimal conditions all the time being a Survival Hunter. We add nothing to group DPS, and while we do "good" DPS on our own, we can not compete with Rogues/Warlocks/BM when it comes to base DPS.
And on a side note, I think its dumb that raids now have to rely on 90% of the raid being leather workers. Blizzard made the statement awhile back that thay didnt like the way Engineering was in PvP because it had too many things that made people feel it was "necessary" to have. The same thing is going on with leatherworking and Drums right now. Now thats not to say I dont like getting Haste drums, but I guess I wont be surprised down the road if Blizz does something to change the way they work.
1 BM Hunter in a caster group (Warlock x3 lets say, and usually paired with a Shaman for the last spot), gives at least +9% DPS to one of the top DPS classes in the game right now. In most cases, an equally geared Warlock will out DPS a Hunter when it comes to base damage...same can be said for a rogue...although BM/Warlock/Rogue are all very good DPS classes. However when you stack a Hunter group like that you are giving a minimal amount of the +DPS to people in the raid. Each of the BM Hunters will get +3% giving +6% DPS of your TOP DPS classes. The Survival/Feral/Shaman are on the bottom end of the DPS list...they are more utility than anything and while they add DPS to the group, giving any of them +6% DPS is not "optimizing". You also move the other BM Hunter to the Melee group and you are giving 2-3 Rogues +3% DPS also. By spreading out the 2 BM Hunters, they may get less out of the group but they are giving a lot more back to Raid DPS.
Again, a lot of this comes down to guild make-ups and what classes are "top" for your guild. Trying to come up with a "whats best" list of how to do raids is not really the point of this forum. I think people just need to step back and look at the bigger picture sometimes, and accept the fact that thay might not be placed in such optimal conditions all the time being a Survival Hunter. We add nothing to group DPS, and while we do "good" DPS on our own, we can not compete with Rogues/Warlocks/BM when it comes to base DPS.
And on a side note, I think its dumb that raids now have to rely on 90% of the raid being leather workers. Blizzard made the statement awhile back that thay didnt like the way Engineering was in PvP because it had too many things that made people feel it was "necessary" to have. The same thing is going on with leatherworking and Drums right now. Now thats not to say I dont like getting Haste drums, but I guess I wont be surprised down the road if Blizz does something to change the way they work.
I think hunters are often the victim of self-fulfilling prophecy. People think hunters can’t compete with rogues and warlocks so they never bother giving them buffs thus their dps is always low.
As far as making an argument about base dps, I assume you mean DPS with good gear but no outside group buffs. Using the rogue spreadsheet here at EJ and Cheeky’s
Rogue /w no buffs 932 DPS
SV Hunter /w no Buffs 1271 DPS
Let’s say that the Rogue sheet is conservative and the Cheeky’s is generous. Adding 10% to the rogue estimation and take 10% away from Cheeky’s
Rogue 1,025
Hunter 1,155
These numbers may still be way off. Until someone decides to run Brut with no raid buffs at all who can really say?
As far as 3 Warlocks + 1 BM again it’s a good group. You estimate the warlocks to get +9% DPS from that group setup so I will assume the warlocks get +6% from each other and the shaman. Let’s say the Warlocks can do 2,200 DPS with no BM. With a BM the three warlocks would do 6798 DPS [2,200*1.03*3]. Lets say adding a 4th lock contributes the same 2,200 dps for a group DPS of 8800 DPS (not even factoring in for more ISB uptime). Given that the BM Hunter would have to pull 2002 DPS which isn’t going to happen in a caster group with no group buffs what so ever. If you broke it down and looked at a melee group where a hunter gets minimum benefit versus another rogue getting Strength of Earth, Battle Shout, Unleashed Rage and Windfury, verus the first four DPS getting +3% damage then you’d come up with similar results. Based on your logic why bring BM Hunters at all?
SV Hunters are a bit of enigma on where to place since they give a raid buff and no party buff. However Grace of Air and leader of the pack will increase the potency of expose weakness. Unless you bring 3 BMs what else will “fit” into a group where the shaman drops grace of air and there is a feral druid.
I completely agree with you about hunters getting buffed after the warlocks and rogues. I’m sure that the months of data looking at the top DPS WWSs will back you up. Saying that Hunters are so gimp compared to rogues and warlocks that they don’t deserve any buffs at all is just a bad way of thinking. If you have three shamans in the raid, then the third one should go into a hunter group if you have 2-3 hunters. If you have a 2nd feral druid then they should go into a hunter group. If you have a retribution paladin then they take up the feral spot in the melee group shifting the first feral druid into the hunter group.
I’m not suggesting that groups should be built around hunters. If your Caster and Melee DPS went down when you had a good group then you broke something in their group to buff your own. Based on the limited WWSes of your guild that I looked at you are often the only hunter. Like I said earlier we are historically weak on the number of mages in my guild. In your guild hunters get the shaft, in my guild mages get the shaft if someone has to get shafted.
Everyone needing to be a LW is just another fact of the game. Something is always going to be the “best”. If you want top DPS jump on the band wagon. Balancing has to be a logistics nightmare for Blizzard. We can’t even agree on how to balance a raid, much less an entire MMO
As far as making an argument about base dps, I assume you mean DPS with good gear but no outside group buffs. Using the rogue spreadsheet here at EJ and Cheeky’s
Rogue /w no buffs 932 DPS
SV Hunter /w no Buffs 1271 DPS
Let’s say that the Rogue sheet is conservative and the Cheeky’s is generous. Adding 10% to the rogue estimation and take 10% away from Cheeky’s
Rogue 1,025
Hunter 1,155
These numbers may still be way off. Until someone decides to run Brut with no raid buffs at all who can really say?
As far as 3 Warlocks + 1 BM again it’s a good group. You estimate the warlocks to get +9% DPS from that group setup so I will assume the warlocks get +6% from each other and the shaman. Let’s say the Warlocks can do 2,200 DPS with no BM. With a BM the three warlocks would do 6798 DPS [2,200*1.03*3]. Lets say adding a 4th lock contributes the same 2,200 dps for a group DPS of 8800 DPS (not even factoring in for more ISB uptime). Given that the BM Hunter would have to pull 2002 DPS which isn’t going to happen in a caster group with no group buffs what so ever. If you broke it down and looked at a melee group where a hunter gets minimum benefit versus another rogue getting Strength of Earth, Battle Shout, Unleashed Rage and Windfury, verus the first four DPS getting +3% damage then you’d come up with similar results. Based on your logic why bring BM Hunters at all?
SV Hunters are a bit of enigma on where to place since they give a raid buff and no party buff. However Grace of Air and leader of the pack will increase the potency of expose weakness. Unless you bring 3 BMs what else will “fit” into a group where the shaman drops grace of air and there is a feral druid.
I completely agree with you about hunters getting buffed after the warlocks and rogues. I’m sure that the months of data looking at the top DPS WWSs will back you up. Saying that Hunters are so gimp compared to rogues and warlocks that they don’t deserve any buffs at all is just a bad way of thinking. If you have three shamans in the raid, then the third one should go into a hunter group if you have 2-3 hunters. If you have a 2nd feral druid then they should go into a hunter group. If you have a retribution paladin then they take up the feral spot in the melee group shifting the first feral druid into the hunter group.
I’m not suggesting that groups should be built around hunters. If your Caster and Melee DPS went down when you had a good group then you broke something in their group to buff your own. Based on the limited WWSes of your guild that I looked at you are often the only hunter. Like I said earlier we are historically weak on the number of mages in my guild. In your guild hunters get the shaft, in my guild mages get the shaft if someone has to get shafted.
Everyone needing to be a LW is just another fact of the game. Something is always going to be the “best”. If you want top DPS jump on the band wagon. Balancing has to be a logistics nightmare for Blizzard. We can’t even agree on how to balance a raid, much less an entire MMO
Sore, you're statement is so off it's maddening. Right now, BM hunters are the top ranged DPS outside of CoD using Warlocks. But in order for CoD to be optimal you need 4 Warlocks in the raid and the overall average damage from the warlocks will still be lower than that of the Hunters. You can check wwsscoreboard if you don't believe that. If you're going to be stacking classes where you have more than 3, it should be rogues, not locks.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
Sore, you're statement is so off it's maddening. Right now, BM hunters are the top ranged DPS outside of CoD using Warlocks. But in order for CoD to be optimal you need 4 Warlocks in the raid and the overall average damage from the warlocks will still be lower than that of the Hunters. You can check wwsscoreboard if you don't believe that. If you're going to be stacking classes where you have more than 3, it should be rogues, not locks.
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It all comes back to, again, different guilds are different. Whats best for one guild, may not be whats best for another. I can say from my experience in end game guilds, Warlocks/Rogues do the most DPS while BM Hunters will come in very close as well. For my current guild, we will usually run 2 Hunters (me + BM). We also have a shortage of Shamans and Feral Druids wich is harder than people think to fill these spots at this level in the game. We may get 100 apps a week for Ferals or Shamans, but out of those maybe 1 will only stand out. We have no shortage of Rogues/Warlocks right now, so it makes sense to buff their DPS output the most we can. I will usually get thrown into the Mage/SP /Sham group, which is fine with me...ill get drums (sometimes) as well as a Heroism and am able to keep up Scorpid Sting on fights like Brut without any mana issues.
Last edited by Sore82 : 04/26/08 at 5:57 PM.
I do agree that every guild is different. You need to support your best players. It's not secret that destruction warlock takes no skill whatsoever so the chances that your warlocks are good are much greater than the chances that your hunter is good. Mages are the black sheep of ranged dps atm. Outside of 1 for AB and scorch, they really don't have a place.
Go ahead and look at about any fight that is pet friendly. Brut and Gorefiend are favorites in what is concidered a pure dps race. Look at the top Warlocks vs the top BM hunters. Now look at the locks and find the top NON-CoD using lock. As I'm typing this, that is Yen who is over 100 dps less than the top BM hunter. Warlocks are great, but as far as beefing them up, it's no better than beefing up hunters.
IMO this is the best 7 healer + tank survivability focused raid:
Group 1
Protection Warrior
Affliction Warlock
Resto Druid *
Feral Druid
Holy Paladin *
Group 2
Feral Druid
Resto Shaman *
Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Group 3
Blood Frenzy Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Ret Paladin
Group 4
Destruction Warlock
Destruction Warlock
Fire Mage
Elemental Shaman
Shadow Priest
Group 5
Shadow Priest
Holy Paladin *
Spirit Priest *
Resto Shaman *
Holy Priest *
Class Breakdown:
2 Warriors
3 Druids
3 Hunters
2 Rogues
3 Paladins
3 Warlocks
4 Shaman
3 Priests
1 Mage
Go ahead and look at about any fight that is pet friendly. Brut and Gorefiend are favorites in what is concidered a pure dps race. Look at the top Warlocks vs the top BM hunters. Now look at the locks and find the top NON-CoD using lock. As I'm typing this, that is Yen who is over 100 dps less than the top BM hunter. Warlocks are great, but as far as beefing them up, it's no better than beefing up hunters.
IMO this is the best 7 healer + tank survivability focused raid:
Group 1
Protection Warrior
Affliction Warlock
Resto Druid *
Feral Druid
Holy Paladin *
Group 2
Feral Druid
Resto Shaman *
Survival Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Group 3
Blood Frenzy Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Ret Paladin
Group 4
Destruction Warlock
Destruction Warlock
Fire Mage
Elemental Shaman
Shadow Priest
Group 5
Shadow Priest
Holy Paladin *
Spirit Priest *
Resto Shaman *
Holy Priest *
Class Breakdown:
2 Warriors
3 Druids
3 Hunters
2 Rogues
3 Paladins
3 Warlocks
4 Shaman
3 Priests
1 Mage
Yes, I understand. The problem here is that people only take into account very specific fights for optimal situations. What about fights that require Decursing? or AoE? This is why I dont like these kinds of discussions...people just talk back and forth about what they think is best, but in the end none of it really matters. We are all raiding on different servers, with different people and are all in different situations. People can talk about raid optimization till they are blue in the face, but in the end it comes down to each guild/raid figuring that out for themselves for each specific fight.
Of course. BM Hunters are a fill in class. You get what you need, then you fill in DPS where you can. 3 warlocks is a minumum for curses so BM hunters are usually the first to go when there are other requirements (decurses, interrupts, more than 3 tanks, etc).
So, I've crawled through all these pages over the last month or so since I've discovered them, and think I have everything pretty well set for now, but wanna make sure I'm not missing anything really obvious. My guild is at 3/4 5/6 and have downed the first boss in BT and MH since 2.4 let us in. I've almost got everything I need from SSC and TK, but I know I am still short some obvious upgrades. The World of Warcraft Armory
I've gone through a lot of the shot rotations in this thread, but haven't made it through the rotations thread yet, so the macro I use is:
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot(Rank 9), (Mult-shot added for bosses)
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
(I sometimes put Kill Command in here, but as flaky as it's been recently I've left it out for now)
I think I have a pretty solid grasp on what I'm doing as survival and all, but like I said, I wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything incredible obvious!
Thanks for all the discussion, it really helps me stay caught up with the hunters =)
I've gone through a lot of the shot rotations in this thread, but haven't made it through the rotations thread yet, so the macro I use is:
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot(Rank 9), (Mult-shot added for bosses)
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
(I sometimes put Kill Command in here, but as flaky as it's been recently I've left it out for now)
I think I have a pretty solid grasp on what I'm doing as survival and all, but like I said, I wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything incredible obvious!
Thanks for all the discussion, it really helps me stay caught up with the hunters =)
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by gggiiimmmppp
The week I made the switch, I didn't have a felspine yet so I was DWing [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] with a [Dagger of Bad Mojo]. Our feral druid also transferred to fucking Premonition this week so I lost 5% crit, otherwise group/raid buffs were unchanged: Wow Web Stats (2106 DPS)
For the record, I'm spamming the /cast /cast macro with the /click line for kill command every .075 seconds using a G15 macro. |
p.s. Xsfer i've seen a WWS of yours that looks very similar the the one posted above as far as % steady(51ish) to % autos(33ish), what rotation/macro is this? I only ask because I am so used to seeing survival hunters using arcane and multi, but some people are going without those two and still putting up huge numbers.
Last edited by Shotmaster : 04/26/08 at 10:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Shotmaster
p.s. Xsfer i've seen a WWS of yours that looks very similar the the one posted above as far as % steady(51ish) to % autos(33ish), what rotation/macro is this? I only ask because I am so used to seeing survival hunters using arcane and multi, but some people are going without those two and still putting up huge numbers.
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Generally the rotation is 2:1 (2 Steadys per 1 Auto) while unhasted, 3:2 (Auto-Steady-Steady-Auto-Steady-rpt) with a small amount of haste (e.g. Quick Shots) and down to 1:1 with large amounts of haste (Haste pot, Rapid Fire, DST + QS) etc.
An alternative that requires a bit more attentiveness is 1.5:1 while unhasted which will turn up some arcane & multi.
I'd like to throw out a question of my own.
I recently joined my wonderful new guild and we got our first kill on Kalecgos. The work then starts on Brutallus. I'm a bit undergeared relatively speaking though, are there any other Surv Hunters out there lacking 4pc t6 who are working on Brut and if so, how much damage are you pulling.
My best is around 1450dps but more often around 1350dps depending on latency (I finally managed to get a working version of Vista-disabled-nagle so that should help me next time I'm there).
Anyone else in my under-geared boots? (figure of speech, my boots aren't too bad :P)
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Originally Posted by Shotmaster
p.s. Xsfer i've seen a WWS of yours that looks very similar the the one posted above as far as % steady(51ish) to % autos(33ish), what rotation/macro is this? I only ask because I am so used to seeing survival hunters using arcane and multi, but some people are going without those two and still putting up huge numbers.
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However, for fights like RoS or any fight where I am taking steady damage that is causing my Steady Shot to get knocked back, it is very hard for me to keep up that rotation without causing some huge clipping and stuck issues. Because of that, for fights like that, I will go back to the 1:1.5 rotation, which causes a lot less issues for me. That macro looks something like :
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Im sure some people are able to keep up the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation on fights like that just fine...but it just causes me more of a headache than its worth. So this is my work around for the moment.
Is it advantageous to use the G15 for this or any rotation or does normal clicking or button smashing produce the same result. Just wondering if its worth my time to really sit down and learn all about the G15 macro abilities.
And about the macro, is this the one you were referencing? Or at least something similar?
MACRO 1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
MACRO 2:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
And about the macro, is this the one you were referencing? Or at least something similar?
MACRO 1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
MACRO 2:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Its advantageous in the sense that your finger wont break off in 6min+ fights like Brut. Learning how to set up the G15 takes a little bit of time, but once you know how to do it, its very easy. I posted a "guide" on how to set up that 2-part macro on a G15 several pages ago (someone else was having an issue setting it up also). If you are really interisted in doing it, I would suggest looking it up.
And yes, thats the macro.
And yes, thats the macro.
I don't want my fingers to break off, nor do I want carpal tunnel syndrome, so I'll look into it. Thanks for the quick replies btw.
@Xfer
What I was hoping for here was unilateral support from the Hunter community that both SV and BM specs are now actually pulling enough individual DPS to warrant being promoted above the also ran class that many Raid and Guild Leaders still believe hunters to be. I'll repeat we are talking generics here not specifcs from Fred or Sids guild.
You seam to take great pride in telling everyone here that you are in the No1 US Guild. As such posting such a negative opinion of your class and being content to be "dumped" in the Mage // Lock caster group is tantermount to Hunter Heirasy. We can see what guild you're in every post you make, perhaps a little modesty would be more apropriate.
What we should be trying to achieve is to raise the profile of what BMs and SVs can and actually are achieving right now and try to change the mindset of individual Raid and Guild Leaders. How many times have I read right here in this thread complaints along the lines of this one from Leighhlu "I'll have the two BM hunters in my group drop engineering for LW to benefit my dps right after I drop a shammy out of my butt." actually his comment made me chuckle but I digress. Its these guys that we should be trying to help in a generic sense by reinforcing what we bring to the table not by slagging off our potential worth or being content doing less DPS because you can't see the worth of Hunter stacking.
Its not that long ago at the start of TBC that most guilds were running 1 single Hunter and that was just to make sure any Hunter loot wasn't dusted. We were simply tolerated and little more. That stigma takes a long time to remove and your comments arn't helping.
Now onto specifics as I can't just say you're belittling your class without some justification. Lets do this bit in in a nice pretty red colour as I know you don't like bold, italics or exclamation marks.
I'm actually going to start by agreeing 1 thing that you said,
So I'm actually going to change my opinion of best Raid setup to include the hunter group as follows :-
Shammy Resto
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Hunter SV
5% less crit maybe, but the RAID DPS will benefit tremedously. Ferals still struggle to deliver 1700 ish DPS whilst BMs are delivering 2700 DPS on Brut right now. So a gain of 1000 Raid DPS right off the bat. One would need to do some involved number crunching to see if that 1000 DPS is maintained by adding 3% DPS to the group at the cost of 5% crit, but lets assume that it does. Now the whole point of this discussion that you are missing Xfer is the effect and Synergy brought by 8 x Heroisms to this group. The BMs are getting an additional 6% and the SV is getting an additional 9%. base damage. Now lets add the Heroism effect.
Seeing as how this is all pretty ground breaking stuff its hard to find good examples but there is a perfect example of what 1 single Heroism adds to raid DPS in a hunter supported group here
2100 DPS Using 2 x Heroisms Wow Web Stats NB this was actually 1.3 Heroisms in reality due to a timing cock up, but lets be conservative and call it 2
and the following week
2000 DPS Using 1 x Heroism Wow Web Stats
Now we have just added a further 800 Raid DPS to the hunter group when compared to your spreading the hunters in any old group thats missing a spot Xfer. We're now at 1.8k additional raid DPS just for the sake of a bit of Hunter Synergy.
The other real problem when cosidering a "generic" ideal raid consisting 2 Tanks 8 Healers and 15 DPS is where the hell do you dump the 3rd Pally. As Pallys are the most mana resilient its hard to get an ideal slot for him. 1 Pally obviously goes in the MT group, the 2nd Retri goes in the melee group and the 3rd, well wherever we can find a slot.
Giving the Caster Group a Shammy is probalby the best answer.
Meaning the GENERIC best setup would look like this.
Warrior MT
Druid OT
Pally
Lock
Druid Resto
Rogue
Rogue
Shammy Enh
Warrior DPS
Pally Retri
Priest Holy
Priest Holy
Priest Shadow
Pally
Shammy Resto
Mage
Mage
Shammy Resto
Lock
Lock
Shammy Resto
Hunter SV
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
As a final note perhaps you can post the raid setup for the No1 Guild in the US for your last Brutallus Kill. That way I may learn something and will save me the trouble of going back to Raidng School!!!
What I was hoping for here was unilateral support from the Hunter community that both SV and BM specs are now actually pulling enough individual DPS to warrant being promoted above the also ran class that many Raid and Guild Leaders still believe hunters to be. I'll repeat we are talking generics here not specifcs from Fred or Sids guild.
You seam to take great pride in telling everyone here that you are in the No1 US Guild. As such posting such a negative opinion of your class and being content to be "dumped" in the Mage // Lock caster group is tantermount to Hunter Heirasy. We can see what guild you're in every post you make, perhaps a little modesty would be more apropriate.
What we should be trying to achieve is to raise the profile of what BMs and SVs can and actually are achieving right now and try to change the mindset of individual Raid and Guild Leaders. How many times have I read right here in this thread complaints along the lines of this one from Leighhlu "I'll have the two BM hunters in my group drop engineering for LW to benefit my dps right after I drop a shammy out of my butt." actually his comment made me chuckle but I digress. Its these guys that we should be trying to help in a generic sense by reinforcing what we bring to the table not by slagging off our potential worth or being content doing less DPS because you can't see the worth of Hunter stacking.
Its not that long ago at the start of TBC that most guilds were running 1 single Hunter and that was just to make sure any Hunter loot wasn't dusted. We were simply tolerated and little more. That stigma takes a long time to remove and your comments arn't helping.
Now onto specifics as I can't just say you're belittling your class without some justification. Lets do this bit in in a nice pretty red colour as I know you don't like bold, italics or exclamation marks.
I'm actually going to start by agreeing 1 thing that you said,
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Originally Posted by Sore82
The argument of a Ferals +5% crit helps our EW is not a very good one...I run over 45%crit raid buffed without a Feral.
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Shammy Resto
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Hunter SV
5% less crit maybe, but the RAID DPS will benefit tremedously. Ferals still struggle to deliver 1700 ish DPS whilst BMs are delivering 2700 DPS on Brut right now. So a gain of 1000 Raid DPS right off the bat. One would need to do some involved number crunching to see if that 1000 DPS is maintained by adding 3% DPS to the group at the cost of 5% crit, but lets assume that it does. Now the whole point of this discussion that you are missing Xfer is the effect and Synergy brought by 8 x Heroisms to this group. The BMs are getting an additional 6% and the SV is getting an additional 9%. base damage. Now lets add the Heroism effect.
Seeing as how this is all pretty ground breaking stuff its hard to find good examples but there is a perfect example of what 1 single Heroism adds to raid DPS in a hunter supported group here
2100 DPS Using 2 x Heroisms Wow Web Stats NB this was actually 1.3 Heroisms in reality due to a timing cock up, but lets be conservative and call it 2
and the following week
2000 DPS Using 1 x Heroism Wow Web Stats
Now we have just added a further 800 Raid DPS to the hunter group when compared to your spreading the hunters in any old group thats missing a spot Xfer. We're now at 1.8k additional raid DPS just for the sake of a bit of Hunter Synergy.
The other real problem when cosidering a "generic" ideal raid consisting 2 Tanks 8 Healers and 15 DPS is where the hell do you dump the 3rd Pally. As Pallys are the most mana resilient its hard to get an ideal slot for him. 1 Pally obviously goes in the MT group, the 2nd Retri goes in the melee group and the 3rd, well wherever we can find a slot.
Giving the Caster Group a Shammy is probalby the best answer.
Meaning the GENERIC best setup would look like this.
Warrior MT
Druid OT
Pally
Lock
Druid Resto
Rogue
Rogue
Shammy Enh
Warrior DPS
Pally Retri
Priest Holy
Priest Holy
Priest Shadow
Pally
Shammy Resto
Mage
Mage
Shammy Resto
Lock
Lock
Shammy Resto
Hunter SV
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
Hunter BM
As a final note perhaps you can post the raid setup for the No1 Guild in the US for your last Brutallus Kill. That way I may learn something and will save me the trouble of going back to Raidng School!!!
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Well, I've been kind of holding this back for selfish reasons but I guess now is as good a time as any.
I run a 2:1 0/20/41 setup as I do not have a DST and keeping up with Scorpid duty can be quite hard on the mana even with a ret pally. After trying all the macro's listed here I just could not get Kill Command to be effective. It was just causing way too many skips. So I spent a lot of time in Blasted Lands trying to figure out why it was causing skips, and how to correct it.
The problem with the macro's listed here is:
1) the whole /click thing is an unnecessary step. Using /click or putting it right in the macro makes absolutely no difference.
2) Kill Command is causing the skips when it is trying to go off during/after the 2nd Steady Shot in the rotation. The macro's listed have no way of determining where in the rotation you actually are. You can get into a rhythm sometimes where it occuring between the 1st and 2nd Steady Shot, but you can just as easily get into a rhythm that is causing skips.
HERE IS HOW YOU AVOID ALL SKIPS CAUSED BY KILL COMMAND:
2 macro's.
First macro:
#show Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Simple. These is what you spam a majority of the time.
Second macro:
#show Kill Command
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence reset=1 Kill Command, !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
This is what you spam WHILE THE FIRST STEADY SHOT IS CASTING. You only need to switch to it when Kill Command is ready but you can also use it when it isn't, as long as it's only transitioning you from the 1st to the 2nd Steady Shot.
This prevents Kill Command from causing the 'GCD flutter' that causes Auto Shots to be skipped. You will still occasionally get skips just as you would if you weren't using KC at all, but you won't get the ones that are caused by the use of KC.
I run a 2:1 0/20/41 setup as I do not have a DST and keeping up with Scorpid duty can be quite hard on the mana even with a ret pally. After trying all the macro's listed here I just could not get Kill Command to be effective. It was just causing way too many skips. So I spent a lot of time in Blasted Lands trying to figure out why it was causing skips, and how to correct it.
The problem with the macro's listed here is:
1) the whole /click thing is an unnecessary step. Using /click or putting it right in the macro makes absolutely no difference.
2) Kill Command is causing the skips when it is trying to go off during/after the 2nd Steady Shot in the rotation. The macro's listed have no way of determining where in the rotation you actually are. You can get into a rhythm sometimes where it occuring between the 1st and 2nd Steady Shot, but you can just as easily get into a rhythm that is causing skips.
HERE IS HOW YOU AVOID ALL SKIPS CAUSED BY KILL COMMAND:
2 macro's.
First macro:
#show Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Simple. These is what you spam a majority of the time.
Second macro:
#show Kill Command
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence reset=1 Kill Command, !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
This is what you spam WHILE THE FIRST STEADY SHOT IS CASTING. You only need to switch to it when Kill Command is ready but you can also use it when it isn't, as long as it's only transitioning you from the 1st to the 2nd Steady Shot.
This prevents Kill Command from causing the 'GCD flutter' that causes Auto Shots to be skipped. You will still occasionally get skips just as you would if you weren't using KC at all, but you won't get the ones that are caused by the use of KC.
Last edited by Eurytos : 04/27/08 at 5:12 AM.
If what he's saying is true then there is nothing wrong with saying it. There is definitely just cause to only bring 1 Hunter to a raid and leaving BM's out completely, instead throwing the Survival in an off slot and creating a 2nd caster group. The current fastest Brut kill is that way. But, if you are going to bring more than 1 Hunter, then it's terribly inefficient to spread them out and not give the same support you would casters seeing as the average DPS from Hunters and the overall DPS increase from the support is higher.
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The problem with the macro's listed here is: 1) the whole /click thing is an unnecessary step. Using /click or putting it right in the macro makes absolutely no difference. 2) Kill Command is causing the skips when it is trying to go off during/after the 2nd Steady Shot in the rotation. The macro's listed have no way of determining where in the rotation you actually are. You can get into a rhythm sometimes where it occuring between the 1st and 2nd Steady Shot, but you can just as easily get into a rhythm that is causing skips. |
That being said, part of the reason people use the macro at all is that it automaticlly adjusts for haste, letting you not have a hard time of switching macros when a proc happens. Another reason for using a macro is that it lets you focus on your surroundings instead of your cast bar.
Using a manual Kill Command can stop chain steadies at the expense of 100% haste proc utilization and some awareness.
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
If what he's saying is true then there is nothing wrong with saying it.
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
There is definitely just cause to only bring 1 Hunter to a raid and leaving BM's out completely,
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
instead throwing the Survival in an off slot and creating a 2nd caster group. The current fastest Brut kill is that way.
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Originally Posted by Eurytos
But, if you are going to bring more than 1 Hunter, then it's terribly inefficient to spread them out and not give the same support you would casters seeing as the average DPS from Hunters and the overall DPS increase from the support is higher.
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Now to take this to its endgame conclusion.
Lets Assume that we dump all 4 hunters out of the raid I posted above and replace all 4 with Dest Locks. We now have a raid with 7 locks but no matter, Xfer argues they are the best choice. The real question is can 4 Dest Locks provide MORE RAID DPS than 3 BMs and a SV Hunter complete with 8 x Heroisms, in that second "ranged group"
That is the real crux of the matter.
Furthermore due to the recent emergence of the potential of SV and BM Hunter stacking I seriously doubt any Brut Guild has used 4 Hunters and swithched in Shammys for 8 X Heroisms to date. I personally belive that the Hunters can out DPS the Locks providing all 4 are Leatherworkers and stacking rotations as required.
Will check WWS and do a bit of research ....
| Lets Assume that we dump all 4 hunters out of the raid I posted above and replace all 4 with Dest Locks. We now have a raid with 7 locks but no matter, Xfer argues they are the best choice. |
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
@Xfer
What I was hoping for here was unilateral support from the Hunter community that both SV and BM specs are now actually pulling enough individual DPS to warrant being promoted above the also ran class that many Raid and Guild Leaders still believe hunters to be. I'll repeat we are talking generics here not specifcs from Fred or Sids guild. |
| You seam to take great pride in telling everyone here that you are in the No1 US Guild. As such posting such a negative opinion of your class and being content to be "dumped" in the Mage // Lock caster group is tantermount to Hunter Heirasy. We can see what guild you're in every post you make, perhaps a little modesty would be more apropriate. |
| What we should be trying to achieve is to raise the profile of what BMs and SVs can and actually are achieving right now and try to change the mindset of individual Raid and Guild Leaders. How many times have I read right here in this thread complaints along the lines of this one from Leighhlu "I'll have the two BM hunters in my group drop engineering for LW to benefit my dps right after I drop a shammy out of my butt." actually his comment made me chuckle but I digress. Its these guys that we should be trying to help in a generic sense by reinforcing what we bring to the table not by slagging off our potential worth or being content doing less DPS because you can't see the worth of Hunter stacking. |
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Shammy Resto Hunter BM Hunter BM Hunter BM Hunter SV |
| As a final note perhaps you can post the raid setup for the No1 Guild in the US for your last Brutallus Kill. That way I may learn something and will save me the trouble of going back to Raidng School!!! |
And for my last point, ill say it again, different guilds are different. What works best for you, may not work best for others. This can be due to a variety of reasons; be it class availability, what the encounter requires (decursing/CC/healing intensive/split raid DPS/ect) as well as just overall performance by the different players in your individual guilds.
I only talk about what I know from experience (which I have a lot of) in these situations. I try not to tell people what they should/should not do - I make suggestions usually based on having already gone through it in the past. I dont say I know everything, or am the best...because I dont, and im sure im not. I read these forums and post on stuff that I like talking about...and thats it.
RDPS and Hunter Synergy
There's absolutely no reason not to have a hunter a group in your raid. My guild does some of the best dps and we always have a hunter group. It's almost always just 2 BM hunter me survival and a resto shaman with a random thrown in. So the maximum synergy isn't always there but we usually just want a resto shaman anyway (feral always welcome as is an enhance shaman instead of resto or a warrior, but dont think weve ever had a warrior in there).
Our melee group is usually rogue, enhance/resto, ret, warrior, rogue.
Then my hunter group.
1 caster group is destro, mage, spriest, resto, destro/moonkin.
1 caster group is destro, mage/healer, spriest, resto, healer
Tank group is usually tank, tank, holy pally, healer, random.
Here are some really good and recent WWS of ours all having a hunter group. This is more than just Brutallus because he's not the only boss in the game.
Twins Wow Web Stats
Council Wow Web Stats
5m Council Wow Web Stats
8m Illidan Wow Web Stats
Brutallus Wow Web Stats
Brutallus Wow Web Stats
Felmyst Wow Web Stats
In all of these raids we use basically the same group setups, obviously adjusted for whatever stacking we do. The hunters do great, as does everyone else. Anyone who gets a double lust is obviously going to do a lot more dps and most classes currently can put out the same amount of dps (when you look at the highest dps a class has put out on like wwsscoreboard or something) so there isn't much reason to double lust. Our Brutallus kills obviously aren't as good as the top kills at the moment (we still use 8 healers and no ferals) but we haven't really gone for a 'record' kill which obviously other people have.
Anyway I guess my point is that if you have 3 hunters you should be giving them a good group and that giving them a good group should not take away from any other group assuming your guild is competent enough to have a good number of each class.
Our melee group is usually rogue, enhance/resto, ret, warrior, rogue.
Then my hunter group.
1 caster group is destro, mage, spriest, resto, destro/moonkin.
1 caster group is destro, mage/healer, spriest, resto, healer
Tank group is usually tank, tank, holy pally, healer, random.
Here are some really good and recent WWS of ours all having a hunter group. This is more than just Brutallus because he's not the only boss in the game.
Twins Wow Web Stats
Council Wow Web Stats
5m Council Wow Web Stats
8m Illidan Wow Web Stats
Brutallus Wow Web Stats
Brutallus Wow Web Stats
Felmyst Wow Web Stats
In all of these raids we use basically the same group setups, obviously adjusted for whatever stacking we do. The hunters do great, as does everyone else. Anyone who gets a double lust is obviously going to do a lot more dps and most classes currently can put out the same amount of dps (when you look at the highest dps a class has put out on like wwsscoreboard or something) so there isn't much reason to double lust. Our Brutallus kills obviously aren't as good as the top kills at the moment (we still use 8 healers and no ferals) but we haven't really gone for a 'record' kill which obviously other people have.
Anyway I guess my point is that if you have 3 hunters you should be giving them a good group and that giving them a good group should not take away from any other group assuming your guild is competent enough to have a good number of each class.
I think a few people need to look up Jeremy Bentham...
It's about utilitarianism people, the greatest good for the greatest number. If you've got 3 hunters you should set up a group for them, if you've got less you probably shouldn't, it's that simple.
Remember, as much as we want to promote our Hunters as more than a less-than-adequate dps class (which we all know they are), all need to bow to raid dps which is the most important thing.
It's the same with any class, there needs to be X amount of them to be worth giving them a group. Hunters are simply unfortunate in that we don't share our synergy with any other class (at least not completely).
Mages & Warlocks can be grouped as they both benefit from spell damage/spell crit/spell hit.
Rogues/Enh Sham/DPS War/Ret Pala/Feral Druid can be grouped as they all benefit from Melee AP/Crit.
Hunters' unique way of dealing damage (undoubtedly the most complex class in the game to output top damage on) means that for there to be a good group for us, it can't just be "another class", it actually needs to be mostly other hunters.
Additionally, Hunters give nothing to their semi-synergistic partners (e.g. feral druids) that they don't either
a. give to casters too (Ferocious Inspiration) or
b. that they give to the whole raid (EW)
so it's hard to justify giving hunters a group, especially for 2 (probably the most common number of hunters to be found in any given raid).
For the Survival Hunter, it often makes most sense to be put in the "spare spot", we can work this to our advantage though. Consider a 2-tank group for a hard-hitting boss (e.g. Brutallus).
It could be
Surv hunter
Shaman (GoA)
Feral Tank (5% crit)
Prot Warrior
Resto Druid/Paladin
The shaman will be swapped elsewhere to pop heroism/bloodlust no doubt but 5% crit and GoA isn't to be sniffed at.
Ok, obviously the downside here is no heroism/drum rotation (unless you're lucky with the druid/sham professions) but often it's a case of 'the best you can get' and this isn't bad.
It's about utilitarianism people, the greatest good for the greatest number. If you've got 3 hunters you should set up a group for them, if you've got less you probably shouldn't, it's that simple.
Remember, as much as we want to promote our Hunters as more than a less-than-adequate dps class (which we all know they are), all need to bow to raid dps which is the most important thing.
It's the same with any class, there needs to be X amount of them to be worth giving them a group. Hunters are simply unfortunate in that we don't share our synergy with any other class (at least not completely).
Mages & Warlocks can be grouped as they both benefit from spell damage/spell crit/spell hit.
Rogues/Enh Sham/DPS War/Ret Pala/Feral Druid can be grouped as they all benefit from Melee AP/Crit.
Hunters' unique way of dealing damage (undoubtedly the most complex class in the game to output top damage on) means that for there to be a good group for us, it can't just be "another class", it actually needs to be mostly other hunters.
Additionally, Hunters give nothing to their semi-synergistic partners (e.g. feral druids) that they don't either
a. give to casters too (Ferocious Inspiration) or
b. that they give to the whole raid (EW)
so it's hard to justify giving hunters a group, especially for 2 (probably the most common number of hunters to be found in any given raid).
For the Survival Hunter, it often makes most sense to be put in the "spare spot", we can work this to our advantage though. Consider a 2-tank group for a hard-hitting boss (e.g. Brutallus).
It could be
Surv hunter
Shaman (GoA)
Feral Tank (5% crit)
Prot Warrior
Resto Druid/Paladin
The shaman will be swapped elsewhere to pop heroism/bloodlust no doubt but 5% crit and GoA isn't to be sniffed at.
Ok, obviously the downside here is no heroism/drum rotation (unless you're lucky with the druid/sham professions) but often it's a case of 'the best you can get' and this isn't bad.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
I think a few people need to look up Jeremy Bentham...
It's about utilitarianism people, the greatest good for the greatest number. If you've got 3 hunters you should set up a group for them, if you've got less you probably shouldn't, it's that simple. |
One more thing to note though, is that simple class strength per guild varies quite a lot. Not all guilds are fortunate to have 25 perfect players. Some players simply dont go into as much detail as others, some have worse "wow instincts", and some just rerolled and aren't as well geared (and some are fucking retards, you'd think 40->25 would get rid of them). Play with what you have, no point posting one hundred and one raid makeups.
I cant think of the last time our guild hasnt run a hunter group. We had 5 hunters last Brutallus, and beat him with around 25 seconds left on the clock. Damage meters went something like: BM, BM, (OH glaive) Rogue, SV, BM, (no glaive) Rogue, Destro Lock, Enhancement, BE Ret, Mage, BM hunter (undergeared, just rerolled, and in the tank group), then the rest. Why were they like that? Because our hunter group was (near) perfect, the melee group was perfect, and the casters got a SP and a resto shaman. Why do the melee and hunters get good groups? Cause that's our strong point. A mixture of class reliability, proven performance, etc. Does that mean it's "the best? Hell no. If all of our hunters were warlocks, and rogues/enhance/ret/arms were mages/elemental/SP's, I'm sure things may have been different.
Sorry for repeated rhetorical questions, I hate them too. My point is:
The difference between hunter/melee/caster dps is so small that it would be stupid to base group decisions based off "established ideas", rather than what YOU have and how strong YOU have them.
One thing i don't get in all of this raid makeup discussion (which here and there sounds a bit more like mudwrestling) is the issue of the threat cap. I don't see it mentioned in any of the posts. Now, on our brut kills i as a survival hunter often reach the cap (which due to FD isnt a problem ofcourse). I know rogues and locks often reach the cap as well. Especially some of our destro locks and our glaives rogue. And reaching the cap means effectively lowered raid dps no matter which stacking options you take to provide the best overall dps.
So either our tanks need to go to threat school, or the threat cap has just been conveniently forgotten above. I do not believe our tanks to be sucking, so now what? Well, for hunters and especially on the issue of having them either spread or stacked, we are still the only class able to do a complete threat dump every 30 seconds. Furthermore we are the only class with the ability to directly boost tank threat.
In relation to bringing more hunters, the threat cap raising comes to mind. In relation to stacking hunters in a hunter group the continued threat wiping comes to mind. On the other hand stacking hunters in a lock group (or another high dps group) can cause the locks have to dump threat at a less than fortunate timing, effectively just pushing the time of where they have to stop going all out forward again decreasing raid dps done vs potential raid dps done. In relation to spreading out (bm) hunters among the groups it makes sense to get the full benefit below the threat cap.
In other words as i see it there is a lot of options depending on your actual raid makeup, but they all boil down to max dps vs threat. So, bottom line, either our tanks need to go to threat school, or threat issues are left out in the above discussion and bringing them in the picture can potentially change the situation.
So either our tanks need to go to threat school, or the threat cap has just been conveniently forgotten above. I do not believe our tanks to be sucking, so now what? Well, for hunters and especially on the issue of having them either spread or stacked, we are still the only class able to do a complete threat dump every 30 seconds. Furthermore we are the only class with the ability to directly boost tank threat.
In relation to bringing more hunters, the threat cap raising comes to mind. In relation to stacking hunters in a hunter group the continued threat wiping comes to mind. On the other hand stacking hunters in a lock group (or another high dps group) can cause the locks have to dump threat at a less than fortunate timing, effectively just pushing the time of where they have to stop going all out forward again decreasing raid dps done vs potential raid dps done. In relation to spreading out (bm) hunters among the groups it makes sense to get the full benefit below the threat cap.
In other words as i see it there is a lot of options depending on your actual raid makeup, but they all boil down to max dps vs threat. So, bottom line, either our tanks need to go to threat school, or threat issues are left out in the above discussion and bringing them in the picture can potentially change the situation.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Its advantageous in the sense that your finger wont break off in 6min+ fights like Brut. Learning how to set up the G15 takes a little bit of time, but once you know how to do it, its very easy. I posted a "guide" on how to set up that 2-part macro on a G15 several pages ago (someone else was having an issue setting it up also). If you are really interisted in doing it, I would suggest looking it up.
And yes, thats the macro. |
Link to your guide ;P
surv help
Hi All,
I've read the whole of this thread which took some time! I've been survival hunter for a couple of months, since I changed guild. Having previously been in a guild which did kara and occasional Gruuls/Voidie, I moved to a guild who were purely MH and BT and have since cleared both. Just some history for my gear as you can see some is great some is still stuck in kara and I missed the whole of t5 inbetween! I've been trying hard to adapt my gear towards my surv spec the only thing greatly lacking is my goggles which I am desperate to get rid of because of the lack of agi but also so I can drop engineering and go lworking and get some drums!
Having read through all this thread, I tried out the 7/20/34 but found myself very oom, so then changed to the 0/20/41 using or trying to use 1:1.5, manually at the moment when not hasted. I have also changed my pet to windserpent and tried to use it since reading this thread more often than I used to. But I am still finding my dps to be pretty lacking.
In terms of group setup in raid, it's random placement, I rarely get a shammy or druid and no drums. I still have mana issues, I'm considering dropping IHM for mana efficiency but I'm the only hunter who has it, we only have 2 hunters raiding. So posting last night's Wowwebstats link for some help/advice! As you can see we are still not at the farming Illi stage, killed him twice . But any guidance/advice on ways to improve would be much appreciated as from looking at this thread it seems I should be getting much more dps ( mother sharaz lowers by overall dps)
Wow Web Stats
Thanks
I've read the whole of this thread which took some time! I've been survival hunter for a couple of months, since I changed guild. Having previously been in a guild which did kara and occasional Gruuls/Voidie, I moved to a guild who were purely MH and BT and have since cleared both. Just some history for my gear as you can see some is great some is still stuck in kara and I missed the whole of t5 inbetween! I've been trying hard to adapt my gear towards my surv spec the only thing greatly lacking is my goggles which I am desperate to get rid of because of the lack of agi but also so I can drop engineering and go lworking and get some drums!
Having read through all this thread, I tried out the 7/20/34 but found myself very oom, so then changed to the 0/20/41 using or trying to use 1:1.5, manually at the moment when not hasted. I have also changed my pet to windserpent and tried to use it since reading this thread more often than I used to. But I am still finding my dps to be pretty lacking.
In terms of group setup in raid, it's random placement, I rarely get a shammy or druid and no drums. I still have mana issues, I'm considering dropping IHM for mana efficiency but I'm the only hunter who has it, we only have 2 hunters raiding. So posting last night's Wowwebstats link for some help/advice! As you can see we are still not at the farming Illi stage, killed him twice . But any guidance/advice on ways to improve would be much appreciated as from looking at this thread it seems I should be getting much more dps ( mother sharaz lowers by overall dps)
Wow Web Stats
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Batfink
Hi All,
I've read the whole of this thread which took some time! I've been survival hunter for a couple of months, since I changed guild. Having previously been in a guild which did kara and occasional Gruuls/Voidie, I moved to a guild who were purely MH and BT and have since cleared both. Just some history for my gear as you can see some is great some is still stuck in kara and I missed the whole of t5 inbetween! I've been trying hard to adapt my gear towards my surv spec the only thing greatly lacking is my goggles which I am desperate to get rid of because of the lack of agi but also so I can drop engineering and go lworking and get some drums! Having read through all this thread, I tried out the 7/20/34 but found myself very oom, so then changed to the 0/20/41 using or trying to use 1:1.5, manually at the moment when not hasted. I have also changed my pet to windserpent and tried to use it since reading this thread more often than I used to. But I am still finding my dps to be pretty lacking. In terms of group setup in raid, it's random placement, I rarely get a shammy or druid and no drums. I still have mana issues, I'm considering dropping IHM for mana efficiency but I'm the only hunter who has it, we only have 2 hunters raiding. So posting last night's Wowwebstats link for some help/advice! As you can see we are still not at the farming Illi stage, killed him twice . But any guidance/advice on ways to improve would be much appreciated as from looking at this thread it seems I should be getting much more dps ( mother sharaz lowers by overall dps) Wow Web Stats Thanks |
The last option for you is to talk with the raid leader and explain that you are speced differently than the other Hunters in terms of mana efficiency to help out with overall Raid DPS, and it would be very helpful to you if you were placed in a Shadow Priest or Shaman group for the extra mana back. You might be placed in a caster group of some kind, so you may not get GoA if you are with a Shaman, but you will get Mana Tide - which should help a lot also.
Yesterday I had the chance to try the 2 parts macro on Brutallus and I´m not quite happy with the results yet. According to my WWS report of that raid evening my DPS varied between 1450ish on my worst attempts to 1850ish on my best with most tries hoovering between 1500 and 1600 dps. Now I´d be quite content with the 1850 or even 1750 dps considering on the one hand I had next to no group support while on the other hand keeping up scorpid sting, misdirecting 4 times and using an owl instead of a wind serpent.
I realized my average shot damage was about 100 lower than those of the 2k+ dps hunter reports on the last 10 pages which is part of the reason I´m putting out less dps. I assume the bigger problem is that my average shot throughput is somewhat below that of said hunters even when compared to those who had no heroism/bloodlust or DST too. Considering I´m using my G15 to spam the macro and my ping usually is pretty low too the only reason I can think of as to why this is happening is when I have to stop spamming that macro to cast scorpid sting, hunter's mark, feign death etc.
This leads to my question when do you weave in those spells in your rotation to get a minimum hit on your performance? Also I´ve got the impression that using my rapid fire + trinket macro sometimes seems to cost me one gcd propably resulting in less overall dps than if I hadn´t used it at all.
Last not least, how do you handle readiness, misdirection, rapid fire and haste potions? Having readiness available I´ll want to use both misdirection and rapid fire asap to get the maxium use out of it (especially the misdirection). On the other hand using it too early might mean I´ll have to slow down because I´m getting threat capped after my first fd waiting for it to cool down. On the other hand I´ll want to use my haste potion as early as possible too because I´m not having any mana issues in the beginning of the fight and because it allows me to use 3 potions over the course of the fight whereas I´ll only be able to use 2 if I haven´t used the first one within about the first one and a half minutes of the fight.
I realized my average shot damage was about 100 lower than those of the 2k+ dps hunter reports on the last 10 pages which is part of the reason I´m putting out less dps. I assume the bigger problem is that my average shot throughput is somewhat below that of said hunters even when compared to those who had no heroism/bloodlust or DST too. Considering I´m using my G15 to spam the macro and my ping usually is pretty low too the only reason I can think of as to why this is happening is when I have to stop spamming that macro to cast scorpid sting, hunter's mark, feign death etc.
This leads to my question when do you weave in those spells in your rotation to get a minimum hit on your performance? Also I´ve got the impression that using my rapid fire + trinket macro sometimes seems to cost me one gcd propably resulting in less overall dps than if I hadn´t used it at all.
Last not least, how do you handle readiness, misdirection, rapid fire and haste potions? Having readiness available I´ll want to use both misdirection and rapid fire asap to get the maxium use out of it (especially the misdirection). On the other hand using it too early might mean I´ll have to slow down because I´m getting threat capped after my first fd waiting for it to cool down. On the other hand I´ll want to use my haste potion as early as possible too because I´m not having any mana issues in the beginning of the fight and because it allows me to use 3 potions over the course of the fight whereas I´ll only be able to use 2 if I haven´t used the first one within about the first one and a half minutes of the fight.
I know one of the dps crushers in the Brutallus fight is the slash, due to it's interrupt effect on SS. I took the advice offered in this thread and manually cast SS during slash and saw improvement. Better yet, try getting out of "soaking" duty all together. Aside from Burn, there would be no interruptions.
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Originally Posted by Midnight
Yesterday I had the chance to try the 2 parts macro on Brutallus and I´m not quite happy with the results yet. According to my WWS report of that raid evening my DPS varied between 1450ish on my worst attempts to 1850ish on my best with most tries hoovering between 1500 and 1600 dps. Now I´d be quite content with the 1850 or even 1750 dps considering on the one hand I had next to no group support while on the other hand keeping up scorpid sting, misdirecting 4 times and using an owl instead of a wind serpent.
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(hopefully i should be able to afford a completely new system soon - yay)
Its a sad reality that right now on Brut, at least one Hunter should be using Scorpid...and while that might hurt your personal DPS, it helps keep the tanks alive, which is very important. Im sure down the road when the tanks get more gear out of Sunwell, the need for putting Scorpid up will get less and less, but for right now, someone has to do it...and its usually better if the Survival Hunter does.
When weaving in the Scorpid Shot, I usually try and do it after the 2nd Steady Shot casts. This will mess up your 2:1 macro a little bit and should look something like this:
Steady
Steady
Auto
Scorpid
Steady
Auto
So you will loose a Steady shot every 20sec or so trying to keep it up.
As for when to use Readiness/Raipid Fire...you should draw yourself a little timeline based on how fast it usually takes your guild to kill Brut to see how soon you need to pop stuff in order to get max usefulness out of them. Rapid Fire is on a 3min cooldown and Readiness is on a 5min...so you should have a small window of opportunity to hold back on going "all out" DPS from the very start.
And as said above, if you are in a soaking group and getting Slash, it destroys our rotation and DPS. Ive had to run in as a back-up before for the soaking, and its not fun. My Steady Shot was getting stuck casting over and over and my DPS in general went down quite a bit. So durring the times when I was getting Slashed I just went back to my old 1:1.5 rotation, which seem to have a lot less issues with the interruptions of Slash.
And one last suggestion, since my comp isnt all that great either, when doing the Brut fight, most of the time I have my camera turned away from Brut and looking at the ground. This will usually help increase my performance. Since its not a real big moving around fight, doing something like this is easy. I wouldnt recommend it for fights like Felmyst or Twins though, heh.
When weaving in the Scorpid Shot, I usually try and do it after the 2nd Steady Shot casts. This will mess up your 2:1 macro a little bit and should look something like this:
Steady
Steady
Auto
Scorpid
Steady
Auto
So you will loose a Steady shot every 20sec or so trying to keep it up.
As for when to use Readiness/Raipid Fire...you should draw yourself a little timeline based on how fast it usually takes your guild to kill Brut to see how soon you need to pop stuff in order to get max usefulness out of them. Rapid Fire is on a 3min cooldown and Readiness is on a 5min...so you should have a small window of opportunity to hold back on going "all out" DPS from the very start.
And as said above, if you are in a soaking group and getting Slash, it destroys our rotation and DPS. Ive had to run in as a back-up before for the soaking, and its not fun. My Steady Shot was getting stuck casting over and over and my DPS in general went down quite a bit. So durring the times when I was getting Slashed I just went back to my old 1:1.5 rotation, which seem to have a lot less issues with the interruptions of Slash.
And one last suggestion, since my comp isnt all that great either, when doing the Brut fight, most of the time I have my camera turned away from Brut and looking at the ground. This will usually help increase my performance. Since its not a real big moving around fight, doing something like this is easy. I wouldnt recommend it for fights like Felmyst or Twins though, heh.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Steady
Steady Auto Scorpid Steady Auto |
| I wouldnt recommend it for fights like Felmyst or Twins though, heh. |
Concerning my fps... I didn´t really look at my fps but they can dip pretty low at times. We´re preparing to try felmyst right now and just standing around here without ppl casting anything i´ve got a relative steady 30 fps. I´ll see how my framerates are during our felmyst tries and update here.
Also like Ondskaben I´m trying to replace my second steady with another spell using a gcd (eg auto-steady-scorpid-auto) much for the same reasons he mentioned. I don´t assume this will make much of a diffrence, does it? The exception to that rule is feign death which I think resets the auto shot timer and hence I try to do it right after an auto. I think I´ve got the biggest problems with my trinket / rapid macro. Are you guys using macros for those too and if so, how do they look like?
Lastly I was planned as a soaking grp burn relieve. Whenever a certain grp had too many ppl with burn running out of the meteor slash I had to run there. This happened at least once on most 5M+ tries and quite a few times even twice (meaning running in and running out again). So this certainly is part of why on some tries ended up worse than on others.
Also like Ondskaben I´m trying to replace my second steady with another spell using a gcd (eg auto-steady-scorpid-auto) much for the same reasons he mentioned. I don´t assume this will make much of a diffrence, does it? The exception to that rule is feign death which I think resets the auto shot timer and hence I try to do it right after an auto. I think I´ve got the biggest problems with my trinket / rapid macro. Are you guys using macros for those too and if so, how do they look like?
Lastly I was planned as a soaking grp burn relieve. Whenever a certain grp had too many ppl with burn running out of the meteor slash I had to run there. This happened at least once on most 5M+ tries and quite a few times even twice (meaning running in and running out again). So this certainly is part of why on some tries ended up worse than on others.
@ Batfink
2 Things to improve dps before I start on mana consumption
1: Your Meta is not active in your current gear, you need 2 blue and 2 yellow (2 green will work, Belt of Deep Shadow is a good place to put them for the agi socket bonus). This will be worth a considerable amount of dps.
2: You're not hit capped, until you are (or very close) +hit is the most valuable stat for increasing personal dps.
Now, mana consservation/consumption/regeneration...
I've got some bad news for you, it's gonna cost ya!
Superior Mana Oil (you dual-wield so x2), Elixir of Major Mageblood (Draenic Wisdom does nothing for our regen as we're always inside the "5 second rule") and Fel Mana Potions.
Some will disagree but with your crit rate you can, without much loss to EW uptime drop a point in EW and put it in TotH. I'd try with the consumables mentioned above first.
p.s. I notcied on Illidari Council (the only fair fight to look at your DPS in the WWS you linked) that you didn't use your pet at all, I know it's not a friendly fight for pets but that's not really good reason to use it. Your pet is still worth at least 100 dps to you.
2 Things to improve dps before I start on mana consumption
1: Your Meta is not active in your current gear, you need 2 blue and 2 yellow (2 green will work, Belt of Deep Shadow is a good place to put them for the agi socket bonus). This will be worth a considerable amount of dps.
2: You're not hit capped, until you are (or very close) +hit is the most valuable stat for increasing personal dps.
Now, mana consservation/consumption/regeneration...
I've got some bad news for you, it's gonna cost ya!
Superior Mana Oil (you dual-wield so x2), Elixir of Major Mageblood (Draenic Wisdom does nothing for our regen as we're always inside the "5 second rule") and Fel Mana Potions.
Some will disagree but with your crit rate you can, without much loss to EW uptime drop a point in EW and put it in TotH. I'd try with the consumables mentioned above first.
p.s. I notcied on Illidari Council (the only fair fight to look at your DPS in the WWS you linked) that you didn't use your pet at all, I know it's not a friendly fight for pets but that's not really good reason to use it. Your pet is still worth at least 100 dps to you.
@ Sore82 and Aerevyn
Thanks for the advice ,
I was using all consumables mentioned apart from elixir of major mageblood which I hadn't thought of thanks! My meta is the red gem one and it is active but I will aim for more hit rating thanks. Also my pet - I did use him but he died in about 5 seconds :s, I will experiment with the elixirs and if it's still a problem I might go 3/3 TotH
Thanks for the advice ,
I was using all consumables mentioned apart from elixir of major mageblood which I hadn't thought of thanks! My meta is the red gem one and it is active but I will aim for more hit rating thanks. Also my pet - I did use him but he died in about 5 seconds :s, I will experiment with the elixirs and if it's still a problem I might go 3/3 TotH
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Originally Posted by Nulia
I've gone through a lot of the shot rotations in this thread, but haven't made it through the rotations thread yet, so the macro I use is:
/cast !Auto Shot /castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot(Rank 9), (Mult-shot added for bosses) /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath (I sometimes put Kill Command in here, but as flaky as it's been recently I've left it out for now) |
I do not believe that your macro will implement the 1:1.5 rotation, which I believe is what you are trying to do. What I believe it will do is perform is a 1:1, with casting a steady, arcane, or multi between autos depending on which is currently available and the priority listing.
Please check your shot logs, but I believe what you will be seeing is something like:
auto-non-auto-auto-non-auto-auto-non-auto
Instead of:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady
Furthermore (and here is where I am less certain), your priority listing in the castrandom may, in the worse case, result in all steadies between autos if the shots are cast on priority order since your steady is always available. Furthermore, since you have Barrage to make your multishot better, it should have higher priority than arcane.
Please check your logs using the macro and report.
A better version of this macro is either of the following for the shot part:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multishot, Arcane Shot(Rank 9)
(This does the base auto-steady with casting either multishot or arcane shot after a steady when they are available with multishot having higher priority if both are available. One problem of this macro is that it does not enforce the true 1:1.5 rotation since multishot and arcane shot can fire after successive steadies. It can also chain steadies under certain conditions. However, this macro does scale well with haste with inserting more auto-steadies between specials.)
/castseqeunce reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multishot, Arcane Shot(Rank 9)
(Similar to the previous macro but enforces the 1 steady per auto. It also uses castsequence which will slow down your rotation if you have high latency since the latency occurs on both ends of the shot. It has some flexibility with haste effects, but not as much as the previous macro.)
Another option is a full castsequence macro, which will enforce the 1:1.5 rotation, but suffers from very little flexibility beyond very low haste and from suffering your latency twice for every shot.
Personally, I use the /cast /cast 1:1 macro and handweave in my multis and arcanes on most fights, except for those that require a lot of situational awareness where staying alive is more important than DPS. In that situation, I use the first of the macros I listed above.
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Originally Posted by Sore82
I wouldn't drop IHM just yet. Its still a valuable talent for at least one Hunter in the guild to have. Your first step in trying not to go oom is to use every buuf/pot that you can. Are you using elixirs (agi/mp5) instead of a Flask? Mana Oils? Are you getting Blessed with Wisdom? And are you chugging Mana pots whenever you can? If you are doing all that and still notice you are going oom, then you might consider dropping Multi-Shot from your 1:1.5 rotation (at least for now). When you get some better gear, and get a higher pool of int, you should be able to weave it back in there at some point.
The last option for you is to talk with the raid leader and explain that you are speced differently than the other Hunters in terms of mana efficiency to help out with overall Raid DPS, and it would be very helpful to you if you were placed in a Shadow Priest or Shaman group for the extra mana back. You might be placed in a caster group of some kind, so you may not get GoA if you are with a Shaman, but you will get Mana Tide - which should help a lot also. |
I agree with everything Sore82 said, but want to elaborate on it some.
The mp5 elixer is [Elixir of Major Mageblood] and the mana oils are [Superior Mana Oil] if you did not already know. There are other versions of these for pre-BC that have lesser effects. Also [Fel Mana Potion] provides more mana than regular mana potions.
Since I also have mana problems, I dual weild so that I can use 2 mana oils. Its also nice that the best dual weidling options (at least prior to Sunwell) also provide better SV EW and DPS support. But even when I didn't have dual weilding options that were "better" than my 2Her for DPS, my duel weilding options were still close enough that it was beneficial to lose a little "full mana" DPS in order to increase my DPS uptime and end up with overall greater DPS for a fight since less time on AoV or only auto-steady until I can use another pot.
In regards to asking your raid leader for mana support, I would make sure you try everything you can yourself to increase your mana from the items listed above. If you are still having problems, then definitely talk to your raid leader and let that person know your concerns. If you are 5/5 IHM instead of 5/5 Efficiency to be the marks hunter to boost melee DPS by 110 and have 2/3 TotH so you can have 3/3 EW to maximize the EW benefit for the raid, then you are givign up a lot of mana efficiency for the benefit of the raid. For me, it's about 17-18% loss in mana efficiency. Plus, if you are OOM or close to it and am having to only do a auto-steady rotation for some time, not only does your personal DPS suffer, but so does your EW uptime and its benefit to the raid.
Now your raid leader may not have a good option to help you with all the time, but it si good to make them aware so that they can help out when they can.
Last edited by Whitefyst : Yesterday at 12:49 PM. Reason: Corrected mana oil name - thx Onds
Another option, that I just thought of, is [Demonic Rune]. They are often forgotten about since there is no TBC equivalent. They will use up your healthstone cooldown, but for fights where you are taking very little damage, they can be a very good option.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Sore82
Another option, that I just thought of, is [Demonic Rune]. They are often forgotten about since there is no TBC equivalent. They will use up your healthstone cooldown, but for fights where you are taking very little damage, they can be a very good option.
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I know everyone here isn't fortunate enough to have my raid/party makeup (we always get some sort of mana support, at least a shaman 90% of the time) or gear, but using full consumables with mageblood, mana oil, dark runes, 0/5 efficiency and 1/3 TotH (I know I have 5/5 efficiency at the moment, that's not permanent) I can still get away with haste pots on my 2 min cooldown upwards of 50% of the time. Worst case scenario, with no ret pally, I am probably drinking mana every other cooldown. Best case, with a ret pally in the raid, shaman in my group, and full consumables, 1-2 dark runes get me through a fight like Brutallus without a worry and I'm free to drink haste the entire time.
EDIT: Also, I think Whitefyst linked the wrong mana oils. These are better: [Superior Mana Oil]
Last edited by gggiiimmmppp : 04/28/08 at 4:27 PM.
I am duel wielding using oils and using fel mana pots, the elixirs of major mageblood really helped tonight though much better mana efficiency, so I don't think I'll lose the IHM. Also I just got the Illidan bow tonight too so will be using that instead of Archimonde one when mana is an issue and swap back when I get some T6. Thanks for the help
Hunter Talents
^^best raid spec ive found for both personal dps/dmg and still helping with EW.
also idk if this has been said yet but if you are not dual wielding at any point past kara then you need to start now. There is so much more stats out of 2 weaps such as:
[Netherbane]
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]
[Blade of Infamy]
not only do you get more stats but you recieve 2 mana oils which allow you to dps longer which results in more dps and less time using AotV(if you even run into that problem).
ive been topping the dps/dmg charts more and more recently and even destro locks are having trouble staying ahead of me(with an eleshammy) which i cant say is the greatest feat in the world but it seems like i must be doing something right.
on another topic, hit rating isnt something to go crazy about, ive found staying at 90 is plenty enough through all of T5, and some of T6, but if you can get something like:
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury] (probably the best in the game, id have to check sunwell loot again)
those shoulders give TONS of hit and allow for you to get plenty of agil along with let up on hit from other items and not having to socket so much for hit.
[Boneweave Girdle]
[Quickstrider Moccasins]
[Insidious Bands]
All of those are great for hit and still give plenty of stats for agil/dmg, the bracers i personally like more than anything pre sunwell. Lastly i find it funny that survival hunters will try and use something like [Berserker's Call] or [Bloodlust Brooch] . those should both never be on a survival hunter if they have a choice, i sadly still have the brooch and am waiting on [Tsunami Talisman] to finally drop. along with that you should be using [Hourglass of the Unraveller] yes its a blue, yes its the greatest blue blizzard ever made.
this is my armory if your curious, still in the end of T5 content because we're downing kael before we move on to bigger things. a bit of a rant but maybe it will help someone along the road :P
The World of Warcraft Armory
^^best raid spec ive found for both personal dps/dmg and still helping with EW.
also idk if this has been said yet but if you are not dual wielding at any point past kara then you need to start now. There is so much more stats out of 2 weaps such as:
[Netherbane]
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]
[Blade of Infamy]
not only do you get more stats but you recieve 2 mana oils which allow you to dps longer which results in more dps and less time using AotV(if you even run into that problem).
ive been topping the dps/dmg charts more and more recently and even destro locks are having trouble staying ahead of me(with an eleshammy) which i cant say is the greatest feat in the world but it seems like i must be doing something right.
on another topic, hit rating isnt something to go crazy about, ive found staying at 90 is plenty enough through all of T5, and some of T6, but if you can get something like:
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury] (probably the best in the game, id have to check sunwell loot again)
those shoulders give TONS of hit and allow for you to get plenty of agil along with let up on hit from other items and not having to socket so much for hit.
[Boneweave Girdle]
[Quickstrider Moccasins]
[Insidious Bands]
All of those are great for hit and still give plenty of stats for agil/dmg, the bracers i personally like more than anything pre sunwell. Lastly i find it funny that survival hunters will try and use something like [Berserker's Call] or [Bloodlust Brooch] . those should both never be on a survival hunter if they have a choice, i sadly still have the brooch and am waiting on [Tsunami Talisman] to finally drop. along with that you should be using [Hourglass of the Unraveller] yes its a blue, yes its the greatest blue blizzard ever made.
this is my armory if your curious, still in the end of T5 content because we're downing kael before we move on to bigger things. a bit of a rant but maybe it will help someone along the road :P
The World of Warcraft Armory
Hey, thanks all EJ's for getting me so anxious
Okay.. Im a little bit confused and dont know where to chose for now, i lost the track around page 70 ^^ .
Im going Survival for Brutallus, with an owl. My gear fits survival pretty OK, I never was fond of non-agi items - though I will re-gem a little.
I got 4xT6, but no DST. I live with 53 haste like so many (polearm).
I do use the 2-part cast/cast macro.
Now my question is: 7/20/34 or 0/20/41?
Will the Quick Shot proc alone get me into 3:2?
I will have 2 drummers and sometimes a shaman, so the attack speed will vary a lot.
What do you suggest?
Okay.. Im a little bit confused and dont know where to chose for now, i lost the track around page 70 ^^ .
Im going Survival for Brutallus, with an owl. My gear fits survival pretty OK, I never was fond of non-agi items - though I will re-gem a little.
I got 4xT6, but no DST. I live with 53 haste like so many (polearm).
I do use the 2-part cast/cast macro.
Now my question is: 7/20/34 or 0/20/41?
Will the Quick Shot proc alone get me into 3:2?
I will have 2 drummers and sometimes a shaman, so the attack speed will vary a lot.
What do you suggest?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I suggest going into a raid as 7/20/34 and waiting till quickshots procs. Does the macro then scale to 3:2? Then try it with drums up. Then try it with any other passive haste items you may have in the bank, even if it is not an upgrade, it is something you would want to know for when you get more haste in the future.
It really is difficult to determine how it will effect each person, as latency/fps/spam frequence/zone are all variables. Yes, I mentioned zone. I have completely different results from Blasted Lands than I do Netherstorm, and different again in raid instances. I'm guessing it's to do with differing network traffic per server, though I'm no expert.
@Midnight and Brut tips,
We have every non-melee taking Slash, so pushback is something that really needs consideration. And the /cast /cast macro does not deal with it well at all. For example, if I was to keep the macro running during a slash and not stop, around 4 extra steadies will appear before it gets back on track. When he is facing your side, be ready to stop spamming the macro (or be ready to lift your finger off the g15) when you see the Slash cast bar, 1 sec cast. Use this time to pop out a multi if you have the mana, or stick to a manual steady till it's cast. You end up just doing manual 1:1 for all of 2 seconds, then back to 2:1/3:2. This applies to all fights though, Kalec Arcane Blasts, Twins Shadow Nova, Felmyst Gas Nova, etc. It's just that Slash is very frequent and Brut is the dps check.
Like Sore82 said, make a timeline for cooldowns. Here is one I whipped up earlier for 7/20/34. With readiness, something like:
0:15 Rapid Fire + Readiness
0:30 Haste Pot
0:45 Rapid Fire
<lust can go here>
2:30 Haste Pot
<lust can go here>
3:45 Rapid Fire
<lust can go here>
4:30 Haste Pot
<lust can go here>
5:15 Readiness + Rapid Fire
The whole thing can be pushed back by 30 seconds if you get unfortunate FD resists, depending on kill time I guess, but if it's dead before 6 mins it's a job well done anyway. Also, seeing as though you're Readiness'ing at 15 seconds, you could FD at 14 seconds and then again at 17 if the first one resisted and just stick the the timeline.
[edit: sorry I misread your post, I thought you were asking why shot differences were there, my bad. I might as well leave the next bit in though]
As for average shot damage differences, there is only so much there can be. The biggest thing is crit rate. Make sure you're looking at average crit/non-crit damage. Assuming you are, just go through the debuff/buff checklist:
CoR
FF
Blood Frenzy
FI count
TSA
GoA (enhanced or not totems)
Agi Scroll
Imp Expose Armor (some guilds use 2 Ferals)
Your gear / talents.
I cant think of any magic reason why average shot differences would occur other than those reasons.
It really is difficult to determine how it will effect each person, as latency/fps/spam frequence/zone are all variables. Yes, I mentioned zone. I have completely different results from Blasted Lands than I do Netherstorm, and different again in raid instances. I'm guessing it's to do with differing network traffic per server, though I'm no expert.
@Midnight and Brut tips,
We have every non-melee taking Slash, so pushback is something that really needs consideration. And the /cast /cast macro does not deal with it well at all. For example, if I was to keep the macro running during a slash and not stop, around 4 extra steadies will appear before it gets back on track. When he is facing your side, be ready to stop spamming the macro (or be ready to lift your finger off the g15) when you see the Slash cast bar, 1 sec cast. Use this time to pop out a multi if you have the mana, or stick to a manual steady till it's cast. You end up just doing manual 1:1 for all of 2 seconds, then back to 2:1/3:2. This applies to all fights though, Kalec Arcane Blasts, Twins Shadow Nova, Felmyst Gas Nova, etc. It's just that Slash is very frequent and Brut is the dps check.
Like Sore82 said, make a timeline for cooldowns. Here is one I whipped up earlier for 7/20/34. With readiness, something like:
0:15 Rapid Fire + Readiness
0:30 Haste Pot
0:45 Rapid Fire
<lust can go here>
2:30 Haste Pot
<lust can go here>
3:45 Rapid Fire
<lust can go here>
4:30 Haste Pot
<lust can go here>
5:15 Readiness + Rapid Fire
The whole thing can be pushed back by 30 seconds if you get unfortunate FD resists, depending on kill time I guess, but if it's dead before 6 mins it's a job well done anyway. Also, seeing as though you're Readiness'ing at 15 seconds, you could FD at 14 seconds and then again at 17 if the first one resisted and just stick the the timeline.
[edit: sorry I misread your post, I thought you were asking why shot differences were there, my bad. I might as well leave the next bit in though]
As for average shot damage differences, there is only so much there can be. The biggest thing is crit rate. Make sure you're looking at average crit/non-crit damage. Assuming you are, just go through the debuff/buff checklist:
CoR
FF
Blood Frenzy
FI count
TSA
GoA (enhanced or not totems)
Agi Scroll
Imp Expose Armor (some guilds use 2 Ferals)
Your gear / talents.
I cant think of any magic reason why average shot differences would occur other than those reasons.
Last edited by Intermission : 04/28/08 at 8:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by dragonskin
Hey, thanks all EJ's for getting me so anxious
Okay.. Im a little bit confused and dont know where to chose for now, i lost the track around page 70 ^^ . Im going Survival for Brutallus, with an owl. My gear fits survival pretty OK, I never was fond of non-agi items - though I will re-gem a little. I got 4xT6, but no DST. I live with 53 haste like so many (polearm). I do use the 2-part cast/cast macro. Now my question is: 7/20/34 or 0/20/41? Will the Quick Shot proc alone get me into 3:2? I will have 2 drummers and sometimes a shaman, so the attack speed will vary a lot. What do you suggest? |
I have the macro on a button bound to my mousewheel (up and down) which I spam-scroll, stopping to hit arcane and multi while I am unhasted (running 46 passive haste atm, Kalecgos dagger and Badge Fist MH) so basically using the cast/cast macro to perform a 1:1.5.
When I recieve Quick Shots I instantly go over to macro-spam-only and 3:2.
I'm really looking forward to 1 more piece of t6 (hopefully head) so I can see the steady shot spam really come into it's own (also only 3k off Ashtongue Deathsworn Exalted).
Veritasxx,
Your post is full of stated facts without any support. The build you posted as "the best survival build" without any justification doesn't include some talents I'd consider necessary and you pick some up I consider silly--because what's best for different players can be just that, different.
Your post is full of stated facts without any support. The build you posted as "the best survival build" without any justification doesn't include some talents I'd consider necessary and you pick some up I consider silly--because what's best for different players can be just that, different.
Please critique me.
Wow Web Stats
1800 dps on brut kill. I'd like to push 2k.
I was on scorpid/screech duty.
22 seconds before enrage on our first kill.... I didn't see that coming.
Wow Web Stats
1800 dps on brut kill. I'd like to push 2k.
I was on scorpid/screech duty.
22 seconds before enrage on our first kill.... I didn't see that coming.
First things first here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
its not showing up but i have got the badge pants and 2 +8 agil gems in them with the nethercobra enchant
Please critique my spec and gem/enchant choices
I have heard that it is better 2 be duel wielding as survival and i am thinking about that. I am using Trollbane currently and have a few ideas as to what weapons i should be looking for. Am 4/5 MH and 3/9 BT
If it is better to be using two weapons should i enchant them w/ +30 intel or +20 agil... This is for raiding not PVP
Thanks for your help
-Bangarang!
its not showing up but i have got the badge pants and 2 +8 agil gems in them with the nethercobra enchant
Please critique my spec and gem/enchant choices
I have heard that it is better 2 be duel wielding as survival and i am thinking about that. I am using Trollbane currently and have a few ideas as to what weapons i should be looking for. Am 4/5 MH and 3/9 BT
If it is better to be using two weapons should i enchant them w/ +30 intel or +20 agil... This is for raiding not PVP
Thanks for your help
-Bangarang!
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
...snip...and the mana oils are [Brilliant Mana Oil] if you did not already know...snip...
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Edit: Damn, EJ is lagging seriously for me during work hours... Mass posts between post time and actually being posted >.<
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Originally Posted by Needhamizer
Please critique me.
Wow Web Stats 1800 dps on brut kill. I'd like to push 2k. I was on scorpid/screech duty. 22 seconds before enrage on our first kill.... I didn't see that coming. |
Your HR is low. WWS is reflecting a 2.3% miss rate on auto shots, which is a problem IMO. 3 missed auto shots, 1 steady.
I am trying to narrow down the test iterations I am planning to do to determine my best DPS configuration for Brutalis, and was looking for some insight. I *think* I will have a feral and shaman with GoA for Brutalis and myself as the only leatherworker, but it's also likely that I'll be in a group with 0 synergy and one other leatherworker (who would prefer battle). This won't change because we currently only have two hunters so please no, "zomg yell at your raid leader" comments. I have for some time used a 1.5:1 rotation with a cast sequence macro for auto/steady and inserted other shots and kill command manually, but have played around with the 3:2 (/cast/cast) idea during periods of high haste, and intend to investigate it with passive haste in the afore mentioned testing. I generally see an average latency between 100ms and 300ms.
Current Gear and Spec
Recent WWS - Please note that most of these attempts were no consumable attempts for healing practice. There are a few "real" attempts in there. On these, I was swapping between 1.5:1 and 3:2 based on drums and rapid fire.
I have a DST, [Valestalker Girdle], and enough badges to grab a [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] (and my exalted trinket if people want to consider that). I might swap around a [Saberclaw Talisman] and [Halberd of Desolation] to balance hit rating, or try to replace missed shots with estimations.
Currently it looks like I need to test the following cases with both a 0/20/41 spec and a 7/x/x spec:
1.5:1 current gear
3:2 haste items, DST and Tsunami
1.5:1/3:2 situational with current gear (I tried this on a few attempts, and I'm definitely not a huge fan, but if it can be better I'll try to make it work)
If there are any other combinations you might suggest or think I can get rid of please let me know.
PS. Please excuse the blue gems we are short on spinels >.<
Current Gear and Spec
Recent WWS - Please note that most of these attempts were no consumable attempts for healing practice. There are a few "real" attempts in there. On these, I was swapping between 1.5:1 and 3:2 based on drums and rapid fire.
I have a DST, [Valestalker Girdle], and enough badges to grab a [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] (and my exalted trinket if people want to consider that). I might swap around a [Saberclaw Talisman] and [Halberd of Desolation] to balance hit rating, or try to replace missed shots with estimations.
Currently it looks like I need to test the following cases with both a 0/20/41 spec and a 7/x/x spec:
1.5:1 current gear
3:2 haste items, DST and Tsunami
1.5:1/3:2 situational with current gear (I tried this on a few attempts, and I'm definitely not a huge fan, but if it can be better I'll try to make it work)
If there are any other combinations you might suggest or think I can get rid of please let me know.
PS. Please excuse the blue gems we are short on spinels >.<
Last edited by Feantari : Yesterday at 11:38 AM. Reason: added WWS link
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
Hunter Talents
^^best raid spec ive found for both personal dps/dmg and still helping with EW.[/url] |
- The point in IAS is really a waste. Not enough to be able to do a 1:1.5 with IAS, so it really has no benefit to the standard 1:1.5 rotation. Better use of that point is Improved Stings to help with Scorpid when needed.
- Personally not a fan of putting points into Improved FD. You should be FDing enough that if one gets resisted that it doesn't cause any serious problems (then again I have Readiness which allows an extra FD if really needed). I would rather spend at least one of the points on Deterrence. The other point is preferrential and can be placed anywhere desired. I like Clever Traps.
For my gear, your spec does about 40 less DPS theoretically in Cheeky's than the 0/20/41 build. Although, it does have about 4.5 better EW AP, but that is still about a 30 total raid DPS loss. It may be better for your gear though.
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
also idk if this has been said yet but if you are not dual wielding at any point past kara then you need to start now. There is so much more stats out of 2 weaps such as:
[Netherbane] [Dagger of Bad Mojo] [Blade of Infamy] not only do you get more stats but you recieve 2 mana oils which allow you to dps longer which results in more dps and less time using AotV(if you even run into that problem).] |
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
on another topic, hit rating isnt something to go crazy about, ive found staying at 90 is plenty enough through all of T5, and some of T6, but if you can get something like:
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury] (probably the best in the game, id have to check sunwell loot again) those shoulders give TONS of hit and allow for you to get plenty of agil along with let up on hit from other items and not having to socket so much for hit. [Boneweave Girdle] [Quickstrider Moccasins] [Insidious Bands] All of those are great for hit and still give plenty of stats for agil/dmg, the bracers i personally like more than anything pre sunwell. |
Sure the pauldrons are good if you need the HR from them; however, there are many better DPS shoulders, including the s2 (and s3 if you have the arena rating), [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator], and [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]. All of these, with the exception of the s2 shoulders have much better DPS and all have at least slightly better to much better EW AP benefits.
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
Lastly i find it funny that survival hunters will try and use something like [Berserker's Call] or [Bloodlust Brooch] . those should both never be on a survival hunter if they have a choice, i sadly still have the brooch and am waiting on [Tsunami Talisman] to finally drop. along with that you should be using [Hourglass of the Unraveller] yes its a blue, yes its the greatest blue blizzard ever made.]
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If I use your spec with my gear, [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Berserker's Call] are even more better than [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. They have about 4 and 11 more personal DPS at a lost of only 0.7 EW AP for overall raid DPS gain.
I also like the fact that I can control when I use these trinkets to use them in conjuction with haste effects to get even more DPS gains from them.
Hence, many of us have very valid reasons for using trinkets other than [Hourglass of the Unraveller], especially considering how much better [Berserker's Call] is for most hunter spec and gear combinations.
OK i think i got this right now. My wep 3.00, my (polearm) haste 53 (3,36%). NO DST.
3 --quiver--> 2,6087 --haste--> 2,5239 (A) --RF--> 1,8028 (B)
3 --quiver--> 2,6087 --haste--> 2,5239 (A) --QS--> 2,1947 (C) --RF--> 1,5676 (D)
(A) 1:1.5 I guess. Or cast/cast.
(B) JUST enough or JUST to high for 1:1 cast/cast but in any case smooth 3:2.
(C) 2:1 cast/cast, IF not screwed to a slow 1:1 by latency.
(D) Always fast 1:1, actually "wasted" haste cause more then needed.
QS: So with 7/20/34 you got some A, a lot C and some D.
Readiness :With-/20/41 you got some more A, and quite some B.
Drums got huge affect on C cause they will put it exactly below 2,10 into a 3:2.
Then again, Haste pot gets A to 2,01 into 3:2. And C to 1,75 into 1:1.
I think ^^
Anyway I though I ld share these numbers.
Question to you: QS or Readiness?
Anything wrong?
3 --quiver--> 2,6087 --haste--> 2,5239 (A) --RF--> 1,8028 (B)
3 --quiver--> 2,6087 --haste--> 2,5239 (A) --QS--> 2,1947 (C) --RF--> 1,5676 (D)
(A) 1:1.5 I guess. Or cast/cast.
(B) JUST enough or JUST to high for 1:1 cast/cast but in any case smooth 3:2.
(C) 2:1 cast/cast, IF not screwed to a slow 1:1 by latency.
(D) Always fast 1:1, actually "wasted" haste cause more then needed.
QS: So with 7/20/34 you got some A, a lot C and some D.
Readiness :With-/20/41 you got some more A, and quite some B.
Drums got huge affect on C cause they will put it exactly below 2,10 into a 3:2.
Then again, Haste pot gets A to 2,01 into 3:2. And C to 1,75 into 1:1.
I think ^^
Anyway I though I ld share these numbers.
Question to you: QS or Readiness?
Anything wrong?
Last edited by dragonskin : Yesterday at 4:50 PM.
Nice to see those numbers (as they apply to anyone with similar haste ratings with a 3.00 bow like myself).
I'm personally seeing better dps from myself as 7/20/34 than I did from 0/20/41 and I don't yet have t6 4pc bonus (1550dps is my best on Brutallus so far, no kills yet though).
With that in mind I'd recommend the 2-part macro, 1.5:1 while unhasted switching to 2:1 macro spam when QS or anything else haste-related comes into play.
I'm personally seeing better dps from myself as 7/20/34 than I did from 0/20/41 and I don't yet have t6 4pc bonus (1550dps is my best on Brutallus so far, no kills yet though).
With that in mind I'd recommend the 2-part macro, 1.5:1 while unhasted switching to 2:1 macro spam when QS or anything else haste-related comes into play.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
I promised an ideal-raid Brutallus kill a week or two ago after I posted my gorefiend WWS, but we ended up with a shitty group last week so the parse wasn't spectacular. Without further ado, I present for your perusal tonight's Brutallus kill: WWS Loading... (2487 DPS).
My party was Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, BM Hunter x2 and myself, with 4 drums (I was on screech duty, sadly). We had an arms warrior and ret paladin as well. I'm going to give it a shot with 0/20/41 next week to see how it stacks up, if we can get away with the same raid makeup.
EDIT: 7/20/44, no DST, G15 spamming cast/cast with /click
My party was Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, BM Hunter x2 and myself, with 4 drums (I was on screech duty, sadly). We had an arms warrior and ret paladin as well. I'm going to give it a shot with 0/20/41 next week to see how it stacks up, if we can get away with the same raid makeup.
EDIT: 7/20/44, no DST, G15 spamming cast/cast with /click
Last edited by gggiiimmmppp : Today at 2:23 AM.
Tsegoa very nice numbers,
What macro are you using and are you just spamming it the whole time now matter what haste ie IAOTH, Rapid.
What macro are you using and are you just spamming it the whole time now matter what haste ie IAOTH, Rapid.
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Originally Posted by gggiiimmmppp
I promised an ideal-raid Brutallus kill a week or two ago after I posted my gorefiend WWS, but we ended up with a shitty group last week so the parse wasn't spectacular. Without further ado, I present for your perusal tonight's Brutallus kill: WWS Loading... (2487 DPS).
My party was Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, BM Hunter x2 and myself, with 4 drums (I was on screech duty, sadly). We had an arms warrior and ret paladin as well. I'm going to give it a shot with 0/20/41 next week to see how it stacks up, if we can get away with the same raid makeup. EDIT: 7/20/44, no DST, G15 spamming cast/cast with /click |
My suspicions on my much lower dps go towards my low fps (5-10) since my latency is usually very low (40-60ms). Al'Akir is suffering from a lot of server hiccups lately causing actual cast latencies (as reported by quartz) at 70-250ms which ofcourse could also be a major factor. I'm very interested in hearing more reports on latency and fps coupled in with the dps reports to get a better sense of any patterns there might be.
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Originally Posted by IFox
Tsegoa very nice numbers,
What macro are you using and are you just spamming it the whole time now matter what haste ie IAOTH, Rapid. |
Mine looks like this.
1st macro (the one you spam)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrors
2nd macro (the one the 1st macro spams on your behalf, this needs to be on Bottom Left Bar, button 12)
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
I can see from the WWS that apart from 1 multishot (presumably on the pull but maybe not) Tsegoa did all steady & autoshot damage which would suggest that he spams this macro all day long whatever the weather (or haste).
I was curious about this too. For me at the moment (3/8 t6) I do 1.5:1 while unhasted, I guess the 4pc t6 tips the balance there then? I'll know for sure in a week or 2.
Like Ondskaben, I'd like to know what you folks are running for FPS and latency as well as what your spam interval is on your macro if you're using a G15. Just curious to see if/how that plays into it.
Make him come to the thread and DL cheek's SS? Can't hold their hand forever.
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Originally Posted by gggiiimmmppp
I promised an ideal-raid Brutallus kill a week or two ago after I posted my gorefiend WWS, but we ended up with a shitty group last week so the parse wasn't spectacular. Without further ado, I present for your perusal tonight's Brutallus kill: WWS Loading... (2487 DPS).
My party was Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, BM Hunter x2 and myself, with 4 drums (I was on screech duty, sadly). We had an arms warrior and ret paladin as well. I'm going to give it a shot with 0/20/41 next week to see how it stacks up, if we can get away with the same raid makeup. EDIT: 7/20/44, no DST, G15 spamming cast/cast with /click |
Brutallus on hard mode (no flasks)
Same group make up, but less drumming going on it looks like, and I had to switch to viper twice. I'm making fun of my guild for the next week for all being out DPS'd by a SV hunter.
Just a quick question: I stand to gain about 50 agi if I trade out all my gems for 10 agi gems. My total agi would be about 700 before I spec to survival. Should I bother spending all of my badges in this way?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Balidor
Just a quick question: I stand to gain about 50 agi if I trade out all my gems for 10 agi gems. My total agi would be about 700 before I spec to survival. Should I bother spending all of my badges in this way?
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Ideally, as a SV hunter, you want to have at most 2 yellow and 2 blue gem sockets, simply because +10 agility gems are simply the best possible choice, past the hit cap. Now, whenever you have a meta socket gem, the RED meta gem is worth keeping, even more so for a high crit build like survival. This does cause you bit of trouble when you're still progressing through different gear levels, as it means an upgrade may cause you to lose the socket prerequisites, so you want to keep the yellow and blue gems in the items you're less likely to upgrade in the forseeable future. [Bow-stitched Leggings] are a good example. You'll only replace them with a pair of Sunwell legs (screw t6 legs), so you can keep one or even two blue or yellow gems. Heck, even 2 green ones [Jagged Seaspray Emerald], if you so feel like it, and fix your whole meta gem requirements completely. If you're above the hit cap, this probably beats any yellow + purple gem combo for pure agility stacking. Alternatively, you could go full spinels in the legs, and use the chest sockets to do that, although you will have to replace the old Ranger General with the tier 6 chest at some point. This is probably the better choice, anyway, since I'm pretty sure Seasprays are a lot easier to replace than Spinels.
That brings me to spending your badges on gems. Yeah, they're worth it. BUT, only if you're going to be keeping the items for some time. You'll surely keep the tier 6 gloves, once you get them. Same goes for the t6 helm, both of which shouldn't be too far out of reach, judging by your gear. I already covered Bow-Stitched. Get +8 agility gems in the stuff you're planning to replace, to be honest.
Personally? I'd buy a third Spinel for the legs now, and get 2 [Jagged Talasite] for the Ranger General, and [Delicate Living Ruby] for the helm. I'm not going to take into account some of the stuff you're wearing that's clearly not designed for survival (cloak, axe, Violet Eye ring, heck, even [Softstep Boots of Tracking]). Assuming you're going for 4 pieces of tier 6 and Bow-Stitched, which is generally viewed as the best combo for hunters, I'd socket all my Survival gear with +10 agi, like I said, unless I was falling severely short of the hit cap, or I'd be breaking the RED requirements. Generally, even the socket bonuses are not worth chasing, except for maybe the tier 6 chest and [Quickstrider Moccasins].
Last edited by Enova : 04/30/08 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Minor rephrasing
So I'm using the cast/cast macro with /click, and it seems like I'm stepping all over autos by spamming it. (I was testing with Dr. Boom.) I guess the pet not attacking is screwing it up somehow?
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Originally Posted by Gonkish
So I'm using the cast/cast macro with /click, and it seems like I'm stepping all over autos by spamming it. (I was testing with Dr. Boom.) I guess the pet not attacking is screwing it up somehow?
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Most likely, you can try it in blasted lands and see if you get beter results without chaining
First of all thanks for the replies - especially the proposed timeline looks fine as it is. Not much I can think about to improve it for my needs.
I´ve had a closer look at my fps during our Felmyst tries on Sunday. They sure went down to about 8 fps while our mages and locks were bombing the constructs at the beginning of the flight phase. Still it doesn´t feel like the dps loss is due to a low frame rate - at least not to a significant extend. Nevertheless I´ll try to turn off some gfx next time we´re doing Brutallus and see if it makes a diffrence.
You mentioning the meteor slash disrupting the macro got me thinking though. As I wrote before I´m assigned to a place where I´m not getting any meteor slashs and if one of the soaking grps gets too many burns I´ve got to run there and back to the save spot again later if I´m getting burned myself. If you don´t have to run on a certain try that´ll propably have a quite big impact on your dps. Where do you position yourself at brutallus and how much moving is involved?
Concerning the Debuffs, CoR and SA are up all the time, FF dropped of occasionally but not for very long and for Blood Frenzy I know we had an arms warrior applying it but I can´t tell if/how much he was slacking with it. Group buffs were virtually non present as I was put into a warlock / resto shamy grp with the shaman totems beeing mostly out of range at my position and only one heroism the whole evening (on our 1% try). Then again I tried comparing myself with hunters in similar situations only so this shouldn´t be an issue really. Besides an GoA totem or LotP aura should´ve no impact on my shot throughput either.
I´ve had a closer look at my fps during our Felmyst tries on Sunday. They sure went down to about 8 fps while our mages and locks were bombing the constructs at the beginning of the flight phase. Still it doesn´t feel like the dps loss is due to a low frame rate - at least not to a significant extend. Nevertheless I´ll try to turn off some gfx next time we´re doing Brutallus and see if it makes a diffrence.
You mentioning the meteor slash disrupting the macro got me thinking though. As I wrote before I´m assigned to a place where I´m not getting any meteor slashs and if one of the soaking grps gets too many burns I´ve got to run there and back to the save spot again later if I´m getting burned myself. If you don´t have to run on a certain try that´ll propably have a quite big impact on your dps. Where do you position yourself at brutallus and how much moving is involved?
Concerning the Debuffs, CoR and SA are up all the time, FF dropped of occasionally but not for very long and for Blood Frenzy I know we had an arms warrior applying it but I can´t tell if/how much he was slacking with it. Group buffs were virtually non present as I was put into a warlock / resto shamy grp with the shaman totems beeing mostly out of range at my position and only one heroism the whole evening (on our 1% try). Then again I tried comparing myself with hunters in similar situations only so this shouldn´t be an issue really. Besides an GoA totem or LotP aura should´ve no impact on my shot throughput either.
When i drop to those ~8ish fps and watch my castsbars, i have a feeling of more time passing per shot than the display. I'm currently at 78 passive haste (felspine and fiends) which makes for 2.5, 2.2, 1.8 and 1.5 auto speeds depending on rapid/quickshots combo. But it sure feels longer. I should have a new powerful comp within a few weeks though and i'll be sure to report back if better fps directly relates to my dps.
Critique
Hey, been following your thread for a few months and was wondering if you could take some time to critique my build and macros. I try my best to incorporate your suggestions into my build but sometimes I just get loss.
Armory Profile
The World of Warcraft Armory
Current Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrors
Here are my latest WWS stats
Wow Web Stats (kara from yesterday)
Wow Web Stats (SSC from half a month ago, went on vacation)
Guild Progression
2/1 bosses away from finishing TK/SSC
Questions:
1) Hit cap, I know its very important but am somewhat confused on exactly what the cap is. I'v read that it is generally 142, with surefooted it drops down 95. However, I read an article by Big Red Kitty, that a dwarf with a gun, with surefooted hit cap is 48. However, the article was somewhat old (perhaps before the change in weapon +5 skill given to dwarves). I am currently missing around .5% with 67 hit.
What is my hit cap? I am dwarf with a bow currently. With a gun? If my hit cap is 95 why I am only missing .5% with 67?
2) What weapon should I be using? I am currently using the badge bow with Wolfslayer, Tuskbreaker, and the Famous Hunting rifle in the bank. I guess it relates back to my hit cap question. (is the +28 crit from Wolfslayer or Tuskbreaker, from being a dwarf, worth the loss in DPS + Hit in the badge bow?)
3) What gear/gems should I replace. After rereading through your forums I see a need to change to +12 agility meta gem and respec deeper in SV (i just couldnt give up my scatter shot).
4) Macro, I think i am shooting a 2:1 with manually weaving in special shots (uhh i think), keep it?
Thankyou for any help provided, I feel I've hit a brick wall in my dps (i think my best was 1200dps). Keep up the amazing work!!!!
Armory Profile
The World of Warcraft Armory
Current Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrors
Here are my latest WWS stats
Wow Web Stats (kara from yesterday)
Wow Web Stats (SSC from half a month ago, went on vacation)
Guild Progression
2/1 bosses away from finishing TK/SSC
Questions:
1) Hit cap, I know its very important but am somewhat confused on exactly what the cap is. I'v read that it is generally 142, with surefooted it drops down 95. However, I read an article by Big Red Kitty, that a dwarf with a gun, with surefooted hit cap is 48. However, the article was somewhat old (perhaps before the change in weapon +5 skill given to dwarves). I am currently missing around .5% with 67 hit.
What is my hit cap? I am dwarf with a bow currently. With a gun? If my hit cap is 95 why I am only missing .5% with 67?
2) What weapon should I be using? I am currently using the badge bow with Wolfslayer, Tuskbreaker, and the Famous Hunting rifle in the bank. I guess it relates back to my hit cap question. (is the +28 crit from Wolfslayer or Tuskbreaker, from being a dwarf, worth the loss in DPS + Hit in the badge bow?)
3) What gear/gems should I replace. After rereading through your forums I see a need to change to +12 agility meta gem and respec deeper in SV (i just couldnt give up my scatter shot).
4) Macro, I think i am shooting a 2:1 with manually weaving in special shots (uhh i think), keep it?
Thankyou for any help provided, I feel I've hit a brick wall in my dps (i think my best was 1200dps). Keep up the amazing work!!!!
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Jaegermeist
Current Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /script UIErrors |
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Originally Posted by Jaegermeist
1) Hit cap, I know its very important but am somewhat confused on exactly what the cap is. I'v read that it is generally 142, with surefooted it drops down 95. However, I read an article by Big Red Kitty, that a dwarf with a gun, with surefooted hit cap is 48. However, the article was somewhat old (perhaps before the change in weapon +5 skill given to dwarves). I am currently missing around .5% with 67 hit.
What is my hit cap? I am dwarf with a bow currently. With a gun? If my hit cap is 95 why I am only missing .5% with 67? |
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Originally Posted by Jaegermeist
2) What weapon should I be using? I am currently using the badge bow with Wolfslayer, Tuskbreaker, and the Famous Hunting rifle in the bank. I guess it relates back to my hit cap question. (is the +28 crit from Wolfslayer or Tuskbreaker, from being a dwarf, worth the loss in DPS + Hit in the badge bow?)
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Originally Posted by Jaegermeist
3) What gear/gems should I replace. After rereading through your forums I see a need to change to +12 agility meta gem and respec deeper in SV (i just couldnt give up my scatter shot).
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Replace your ring ASAP with something that has agi. Even the blue one off the AH would probably be better.
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Originally Posted by Jaegermeist
) Macro, I think i am shooting a 2:1 with manually weaving in special shots (uhh i think), keep it?
Thankyou for any help provided, I feel I've hit a brick wall in my dps (i think my best was 1200dps). Keep up the amazing work!!!! |
Last edited by MasterZeus : 05/01/08 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Grammar
Hi,
Reading this thread for quite a while now and recently I started seeing some really excellent WWS numbers for Brut, which my guild is working on currently, and was wondering which specific macros those who are breaking 2k dps vs. Brut are using.
I've been using (excluding the UI nonsense):
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castrandom Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
I've spec'd 0/25/36 for most of my time since I switched over to Survival permanently, certainly would try 7/20/34 if that will be a significant difference. I tend to do well in raids but some of these 2k+ numbers are making me question whether or not I'm doing everything quite as well as I could be...
Currently using [Black Bow of the Betrayer], can swap to the badge bow. 0 passive haste, do have 4 piece T6 bonus. And I can't count on being grouped with anyone that is of any help to me.
And would the answer to this question change if I get a Felspine (or other passive haste)?
Thanks a lot.
Reading this thread for quite a while now and recently I started seeing some really excellent WWS numbers for Brut, which my guild is working on currently, and was wondering which specific macros those who are breaking 2k dps vs. Brut are using.
I've been using (excluding the UI nonsense):
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castrandom Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
I've spec'd 0/25/36 for most of my time since I switched over to Survival permanently, certainly would try 7/20/34 if that will be a significant difference. I tend to do well in raids but some of these 2k+ numbers are making me question whether or not I'm doing everything quite as well as I could be...
Currently using [Black Bow of the Betrayer], can swap to the badge bow. 0 passive haste, do have 4 piece T6 bonus. And I can't count on being grouped with anyone that is of any help to me.
And would the answer to this question change if I get a Felspine (or other passive haste)?
Thanks a lot.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Wow Web Stats
Personal record as survival so far. Still no DST.
Only drummer in the group
No BM hunter in the group
No heroisms
Missclicked scatter shot so had zero points in TotH = One fel mana pot instead of haste
Suppose I cant go a lot higher with this group setup. Maybe a few more shots due to lesser amount of FD if we raided with four paladins but that's about it I think.. I wonder how big difference heroism and three drummers does.
Comparing my average damage with Tsegoas indicates that faerie fire was off quite a bit. :/
Personal record as survival so far. Still no DST.
Only drummer in the group
No BM hunter in the group
No heroisms
Missclicked scatter shot so had zero points in TotH = One fel mana pot instead of haste
Suppose I cant go a lot higher with this group setup. Maybe a few more shots due to lesser amount of FD if we raided with four paladins but that's about it I think.. I wonder how big difference heroism and three drummers does.
Comparing my average damage with Tsegoas indicates that faerie fire was off quite a bit. :/
Last edited by Osse : 05/01/08 at 5:39 PM.
I will tell you right now, with noone of any help to you, you should be around 1300-1400 optimally. You just can't break 2k all by your lonesome as SV>
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
You might want to see previous posts that talk about and post the 3:2/2:1 macros. Or, if you prefer a 1:1.5 rotation, I would use the /castsequence /castrandom macro, as it is generally easier to get right than manually timing everything. For example, in this fight: Jaegermeist - WWS you used almost a 1:1 rotation which is not even close to max DPS for a survival hunter.
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UNHASTED/CC not an issue
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
UNHASTED/CC an issue
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
HASTED
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
Finally, should I dump KC from the first two macros? If i do what should I do with it, manually hit it or just ignore it all together.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
The Dwarf hit cap stuff changed a long time ago. The hit cap is the same for all races. Dwarves have a crit bonus with guns now instead. I would definitely recommend using a gun if you can find a good one.
Use Cheeky's SS to be sure, but my guess would be Tuskbreaker being highest DPS with the correct rotation since you are a dwarf. |
I can't use SS cause my excel doesn't work but I guess weapon choice is my major question. I am currently using the bow for two reasons 1) the increase in 6.5 dps as compared to Tuskbreaker 2) +14 hit on the bow. If i switch to the gun i only gain 10 crit rating (dwarf racial - equip bonus of the bow) but lose 6.5 dps and 14 hit. I am already under my hit cap and switching to the bow will put me at 53 meaning i'd have to regem or throw in some +hit gear with lower agility etc. I read 1 dps = around 14 AP (i dont know if this true, 6x14 is alot). So what do you think, is switching to the gun all that worth it? Even if it means, crimping my agility to make up for hit?
To those without a G15
I've had moderate success with the /cast /cast macro. About 1.9k dps on Brutallus today. No drummers though and I had one fire, so there's still some room for improvement.
A small tip for those wanting to try the macro but don't own a G15 keyboard: pick some (hidden) button you don't use and that is currently not binded, put the macro in there. Find the button in keybindings and bind it to both your mousescroll up and mousescroll down. Now you can just spam the macro by scrolling up and down, which is hardly as stressing as spamming a single button for 6+ minutes. And as most people have their scroll set to "3 lines per scroll" in Windows, you can send it (almost) as fast as a G15 macro.
Just don't forget to rebind your zoom. And you might want to rebind SHIFT+scroll as well, as it shifts your bars by default.
A small tip for those wanting to try the macro but don't own a G15 keyboard: pick some (hidden) button you don't use and that is currently not binded, put the macro in there. Find the button in keybindings and bind it to both your mousescroll up and mousescroll down. Now you can just spam the macro by scrolling up and down, which is hardly as stressing as spamming a single button for 6+ minutes. And as most people have their scroll set to "3 lines per scroll" in Windows, you can send it (almost) as fast as a G15 macro.
Just don't forget to rebind your zoom. And you might want to rebind SHIFT+scroll as well, as it shifts your bars by default.
So with the typical 2 part /click click macro I've noticed my pet refuses to stay by my side. There's a few fights (council for example) where I want it to stay with me the whole time and only do LBs but I've noticed that it just randomly takes off and starts meleeing the target.
I believe this is caused by KC becoming active but haven't found a fix for it. My macro does have the pettarget=exists modifier, so I don't know why it would try to do it.
I believe this is caused by KC becoming active but haven't found a fix for it. My macro does have the pettarget=exists modifier, so I don't know why it would try to do it.
Paste the macro please, pettarget=exists doesn't do anything
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Originally Posted by Gurth
Paste the macro please, pettarget=exists doesn't do anything
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Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Osse
Wow Web Stats
Personal record as survival so far. Still no DST. Only drummer in the group No BM hunter in the group No heroisms Missclicked scatter shot so had zero points in TotH = One fel mana pot instead of haste Suppose I cant go a lot higher with this group setup. Maybe a few more shots due to lesser amount of FD if we raided with four paladins but that's about it I think.. I wonder how big difference heroism and three drummers does. Comparing my average damage with Tsegoas indicates that faerie fire was off quite a bit. :/ |
My max SV dps is just above 2k. with 2 BM hunters, shammy, feral! 2 Drums. No DST.
WWS report for this is kinda messy since i respecced. Wow Web Stats <-- actually our first kill + I respecced BM in the middle when we brough 4th (undergeared) hunter. But check Try 5 maybe.
With standard buffs (no scroll or totem) i had 1000 agi and 2900AP.
I spammed the 3:2 macro on a 50ms basis.
So either im doing something wrong or the debuff list is crap like ** compared to you guys
curious how it looks on smooth brut kills next week or later.
Last edited by dragonskin : 05/01/08 at 7:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by dragonskin
Im still amazed by that.
My max SV dps is just above 2k. with 2 BM hunters, shammy, feral! 2 Drums. No DST. WWS report for this is kinda messy since i respecced. Wow Web Stats <-- actually our first kill + I respecced BM in the middle when we brough 4th (undergeared) hunter. But check Try 5 maybe. With standard buffs (no scroll or totem) i had 1000 agi and 2900AP. I spammed the 3:2 macro on a 50ms basis. So either im doing something wrong or the debuff list is crap like ** compared to you guys curious how it looks on smooth brut kills next week or later. |
Now I had another Brutallus kill yesterday too (WWS) and again I was put into a grp with 3 casters and 1 resto shamy so aside from one heroism in the end and mana totems I didn´t any grp synergies I could tell about (no drums either). Additionally JoW seems to have dropped very early in the fight and wasn´t reapplied so I had to take 2 fel mana potions instead of haste potions. As we already run more of a tank and healerfriendly grp composition to make up for the fact that we only take 7 healers I decided to try without scorpid sting this time. Also I had to run once from my save spot to replace a burn player in a soaking grp which didn´t take very long though. In the end I came up with 1785 dps which seems to be more in line with what I´d expect after seeing your various WWS and taking into account all the above mentioned shortcomings. 332 shots in 5:53 min seems about right too (Osse had 344 in 5:50 min). What primarily keeps my dps low seems to be my low average shot damage. According to WWS I had an average shot damage of 1658 for all my shots (crits and hits) as opposed to the 1879 of Osse. Just looking at the normal hits Osse had an average of 69 more steady shot and 75 auto shot damage per shot. How much of this can be explained with lacking grp synery and how much can I change with gearing up with stuff dropping up to felmyst?
CoR or FF must have been knocked off a lot. Same happens for my guild as well. Compare my average shot damage to Tsegoa's and the difference is a lot more than the expected 3% from BM hunter and our gear is pretty much the same.
GoA makes a difference between our average dmg Midnight but it cant be that much.
As for the upgrades I'd say that dps goes up a lot when you have Felmyst legs, chest, new t6 items and Twins bow. With ZA and badge ring you should be sporting at 1k armor penetration which is rather insane...
GoA makes a difference between our average dmg Midnight but it cant be that much.
As for the upgrades I'd say that dps goes up a lot when you have Felmyst legs, chest, new t6 items and Twins bow. With ZA and badge ring you should be sporting at 1k armor penetration which is rather insane...
Well I got the T6 belt on that very Brutallus kill which adds another bit of ArPen for the next one. Unfortunatly the Immortal Dusk gloves receipe didn´t drop for us yet but even if it did I don´t know if we had enough sunmotes already beeing stuck at felmyst with very few trash farming for 3 weeks now. Anyway now that haste seems to be somewhat more interesting again I´m wondering if the craftable mail gloves ain´t a viable alternative too. I sacrifice a few stat points to int and get haste instead of ArPen - tbh it´s a tough call. Regarding the legs - I don´t think I´ll get a shot at them anytime soon because I guess the rogues and ferals will have a stronger need on them and I´m inclined to let them.
Also looking at the WWS there were 5 registered casts of FF and only 1 for CoR so I assume CoR didn´t fell off but FF had to be reapplied 4 times after it run out. This corrosponds with my observations during the fight.
Also looking at the WWS there were 5 registered casts of FF and only 1 for CoR so I assume CoR didn´t fell off but FF had to be reapplied 4 times after it run out. This corrosponds with my observations during the fight.
Your loot priority system doesn't make sense to me. For fury warriors, rogues, feral druids and hunters the chest and legs are best items for those slots in the game.
Dilemma time. Here is the question for all you number crunchers out there. Currently I am running at 2233 AP 35.88% crit 120 Hit rating, 890 agility self buffed (AoTH only). 24/37 spec.
Here is the list of items that will be used in this discussion. (all my other gear already has reds socketed in all slots)
Ranger General Chestguard
Belt of Deep Shadows
Void Reaver Greaves
Season 3 Helm with Meta +12 agility 3% crit bonus
Grim Grin Faceguard from ZA
This is a pure gem discussion as it relates to DPS and EW gains. Also we will speak in terms of NON EPIC gems as all this gear will not be seeing spinals for some time. (only allowed to use in T6+ gear atm) Other stats are irrelevant because this is the gear I currently have with upgrades not coming for a few weeks at least as our guild progresses further into T6.
This is setup 1 (what I currently roll with) total gem agility + helm bonuses with meta = 103 agility with 3% crit damage
Ranger Generals sockets produce 8,4,4,3 = 19 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus
Belt of Deep Shadows sockets produce 4,4,3 = 11 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus
Void Reaver Greaves sockets produce 8,4,4,4 = 20 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus
S3 helm produces 33,12,8 = 53 agility
This is the proposed setup 2 (what I am thinking of going to) total gem + helm overall stats for 128 agility
The following numbers will be socketing all delicate rubies as we dont need to worry about meta reqs.
Ranger Generals 8,8,8 = 24 agility
Belt of Deep Shadows 8,8 = 16 agility
Void Reaver Greaves 8,8,8 = 24 agility
Grim Grin Facegaurd from ZA produces 40,8,8,8 = 64 agility
So it looks like we gain 25 agility, don't have to worry about meta requirements and can socket all red gems everywhere. We lose some hit rating which is ok since I am way over the 96 minimum. We lose the 3% crit damage bonus from the meta, we lose some armor penetration, and a bit of mana. So, the question is does the 25 extra agility out weight all the things I would be loosing?
After actually typing it out and seeing the numbers right in my face I am thinking the way I have it without changing anything is better. Before writing this post I thought the agility difference would have been greater. Anyway, I will go ahead and post for some feedback in case some other maybe in a similar situation wondering what to do.
Here is the list of items that will be used in this discussion. (all my other gear already has reds socketed in all slots)
Ranger General Chestguard
Belt of Deep Shadows
Void Reaver Greaves
Season 3 Helm with Meta +12 agility 3% crit bonus
Grim Grin Faceguard from ZA
This is a pure gem discussion as it relates to DPS and EW gains. Also we will speak in terms of NON EPIC gems as all this gear will not be seeing spinals for some time. (only allowed to use in T6+ gear atm) Other stats are irrelevant because this is the gear I currently have with upgrades not coming for a few weeks at least as our guild progresses further into T6.
This is setup 1 (what I currently roll with) total gem agility + helm bonuses with meta = 103 agility with 3% crit damage
Ranger Generals sockets produce 8,4,4,3 = 19 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus
Belt of Deep Shadows sockets produce 4,4,3 = 11 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus
Void Reaver Greaves sockets produce 8,4,4,4 = 20 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus
S3 helm produces 33,12,8 = 53 agility
This is the proposed setup 2 (what I am thinking of going to) total gem + helm overall stats for 128 agility
The following numbers will be socketing all delicate rubies as we dont need to worry about meta reqs.
Ranger Generals 8,8,8 = 24 agility
Belt of Deep Shadows 8,8 = 16 agility
Void Reaver Greaves 8,8,8 = 24 agility
Grim Grin Facegaurd from ZA produces 40,8,8,8 = 64 agility
So it looks like we gain 25 agility, don't have to worry about meta requirements and can socket all red gems everywhere. We lose some hit rating which is ok since I am way over the 96 minimum. We lose the 3% crit damage bonus from the meta, we lose some armor penetration, and a bit of mana. So, the question is does the 25 extra agility out weight all the things I would be loosing?
After actually typing it out and seeing the numbers right in my face I am thinking the way I have it without changing anything is better. Before writing this post I thought the agility difference would have been greater. Anyway, I will go ahead and post for some feedback in case some other maybe in a similar situation wondering what to do.
Last edited by Sillyman : Yesterday at 12:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jaegermeist
I dont think i have the haste to pull off the 2:1 macro all the time. So what I have gathered i should use these macros in the following situations:
UNHASTED/CC not an issue /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6) /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() UNHASTED/CC an issue /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() HASTED /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath Finally, should I dump KC from the first two macros? If i do what should I do with it, manually hit it or just ignore it all together. I can't use SS cause my excel doesn't work but I guess weapon choice is my major question. I am currently using the bow for two reasons 1) the increase in 6.5 dps as compared to Tuskbreaker 2) +14 hit on the bow. If i switch to the gun i only gain 10 crit rating (dwarf racial - equip bonus of the bow) but lose 6.5 dps and 14 hit. I am already under my hit cap and switching to the bow will put me at 53 meaning i'd have to regem or throw in some +hit gear with lower agility etc. I read 1 dps = around 14 AP (i dont know if this true, 6x14 is alot). So what do you think, is switching to the gun all that worth it? Even if it means, crimping my agility to make up for hit? |
First concerning the UNHASTED/CC not an issue macro. It's an okay macro to use, but I want to point out that it is not a true 1:1.5 macro, and as such you will lose some DPS from fully performing the 1:1.5 rotation. The reason is that the /castrandom part does not enforce that multishot and arcane shot always have 2 auto-steadys between them. It allows for the specials on back to back steadies. Unfortunately, I do not have a better macro to suggest. A castsequence macro that enforces the true 1:1.5 can be used, but then you suffer your latency on both ends of every shot, which for people with non-ideal latency is a problem. It also is not flexible during haste (a little haste will tighten it up but after that haste is lost). The macro you have listed is fine though, and I use it in situations in which I need additional situational awareness. Otherwise, I use the HASTED macro with hand-weaving the mukltishots and arcanes. Another thought is that if your multshot is more damaging that your arcane shot, you will want to put it first in the castrandom. That way you will be using it sooner in your rotation, and using it more often if you are in the situation where your rotation is resetting frequently due to moving etc. In addition, with the arcane shot first in the order, you are more likely to get 2 arcanes before a multishot fires instead of a 1:1 ratio.
Concerning the UNHASTED/CC an issue macro, you can add in the line /castrandom arcane shot. This will perform the 1:1.3 rotation.
Concernign KC, I have no good answer for you since I do not know your timing situation (weapon speed, latency, etc.). Do experiements with and without it and see which provides better results.
Concerning weapon choice, if the bow works better for you than your current gun, then use the bow. I think a big reason why it works better for you is because you need the hit rating.
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Originally Posted by Sillyman
This is a pure gem discussion as it relates to DPS and EW gains. Also we will speak in terms of NON EPIC gems as all this gear will not be seeing spinals for some time. (only allowed to use in T6+ gear atm) Other stats are irrelevant because this is the gear I currently have with upgrades not coming for a few weeks at least as our guild progresses further into T6.
This is setup 1 (what I currently roll with) total gem agility + helm bonuses with meta = 103 agility with 3% crit damage Ranger Generals sockets produce 8,4,4,3 = 19 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus Belt of Deep Shadows sockets produce 4,4,3 = 11 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus Void Reaver Greaves sockets produce 8,4,4,4 = 20 agility socketed for the agility socket bonus S3 helm produces 33,12,8 = 53 agility This is the proposed setup 2 (what I am thinking of going to) total gem + helm overall stats for 128 agility The following numbers will be socketing all delicate rubies as we dont need to worry about meta reqs. Ranger Generals 8,8,8 = 24 agility Belt of Deep Shadows 8,8 = 16 agility Void Reaver Greaves 8,8,8 = 24 agility Grim Grin Facegaurd from ZA produces 40,8,8,8 = 64 agility So it looks like we gain 25 agility, don't have to worry about meta requirements and can socket all red gems everywhere. We lose some hit rating which is ok since I am way over the 96 minimum. We lose the 3% crit damage bonus from the meta, we lose some armor penetration, and a bit of mana. So, the question is does the 25 extra agility out weight all the things I would be loosing? After actually typing it out and seeing the numbers right in my face I am thinking the way I have it without changing anything is better. Before writing this post I thought the agility difference would have been greater. Anyway, I will go ahead and post for some feedback in case some other maybe in a similar situation wondering what to do. |
If you find that your current setup is better than your proposed one, then I would like to make an even better proposal.
You already have your meta requirements handled by your chest and legs. I would therefore suggest regemming your belt to 2x+8 agility. This would gain you 5 more agility at the cost of only 12 sta (i.e, 132 health), which would improve both your personal DPS and your EW AP.
I've got a question I was hoping someone could help me with.
I'm using the 2-part /cast/cast/click macro as detailed below
Macro 1 (the spam macro)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrors
Macro 2 (the automatically-spammed macro)
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Now, my understanding of this macro was that it would not bug on Kill Command alas I still find myself getting bugged out by KC sometimes. I can reset it by attacking another target until I crit but until that happens (it's noticeable if it bugs at the end of a fight especially as i can't do things like feed pet) I'm still up the proverbial creek. Is there any way around it or is this a case of wait on Blizz?
I'm using the 2-part /cast/cast/click macro as detailed below
Macro 1 (the spam macro)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrors
Macro 2 (the automatically-spammed macro)
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Now, my understanding of this macro was that it would not bug on Kill Command alas I still find myself getting bugged out by KC sometimes. I can reset it by attacking another target until I crit but until that happens (it's noticeable if it bugs at the end of a fight especially as i can't do things like feed pet) I'm still up the proverbial creek. Is there any way around it or is this a case of wait on Blizz?
Hey, been looking through pretty much this whole thread and i'm getting highly confused by all the macros. If its possible could somebody either explain to me what the different shot rotations are, with macros, or point me to where i can find them all out?
Also if it aint to much of a hassle could somebody take a peek at my gear, and let me know what i cna do to, firstly, improve my own dps, and secondly whislt improving my dps how can i keep my agility nice and high?
cheers in advance for any help
Also if it aint to much of a hassle could somebody take a peek at my gear, and let me know what i cna do to, firstly, improve my own dps, and secondly whislt improving my dps how can i keep my agility nice and high?
cheers in advance for any help
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
First, did you try both setups in Cheeky's spreadsheet with seeing the change in personal DPS and EW AP?
If you find that your current setup is better than your proposed one, then I would like to make an even better proposal. You already have your meta requirements handled by your chest and legs. I would therefore suggest regemming your belt to 2x+8 agility. This would gain you 5 more agility at the cost of only 12 sta (i.e, 132 health), which would improve both your personal DPS and your EW AP. |
Cheeky spreadsheet is a mystery to me still. Biggest problem is no excel on my home computer and my work computer hasn't access to load in my armory stuff. As far as the 2 +8's in the belt I will do that I think for sure. Not sure why I hadn't already. I think the only reason I was holding off is because if I can land T5 pants that would be 4piece T5 bonus with helm,shoulder,gloves,legs.. then I would need the blue sockets from the belt.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
I've got a question I was hoping someone could help me with.
I'm using the 2-part /cast/cast/click macro as detailed below Macro 1 (the spam macro) #showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /script UIErrors Macro 2 (the automatically-spammed macro) /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot Now, my understanding of this macro was that it would not bug on Kill Command alas I still find myself getting bugged out by KC sometimes. I can reset it by attacking another target until I crit but until that happens (it's noticeable if it bugs at the end of a fight especially as i can't do things like feed pet) I'm still up the proverbial creek. Is there any way around it or is this a case of wait on Blizz? |
I have always hated that macro and others like it. For the simple fact of the matter they don't work for me. I usually am around 150-200ms latency. Here is the one I like the best for a basic 1 to 1 rotation.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
This is the one I use to duplicate a 1 to 1.5 rotation (5 points improve arcane shot no multi used)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
The big difference if you will notice.. is there is NO reset=x in these macros. This for me has really helped with my high latency situation in keeping the kill command bug from happening. Its only weakness is it will cast steady, then auto every time in that order. If you stop a fight before the auto goes off then the next fight will start with a auto shot and not a steady shot. It is not a big deal though imo. I however don't use kill command as survival spec. But when using kill command as beast those are the macros I would use (assuming windserpent as beast also).
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Sillyman
Cheeky spreadsheet is a mystery to me still. Biggest problem is no excel on my home computer and my work computer hasn't access to load in my armory stuff. As far as the 2 +8's in the belt I will do that I think for sure. Not sure why I hadn't already. I think the only reason I was holding off is because if I can land T5 pants that would be 4piece T5 bonus with helm,shoulder,gloves,legs.. then I would need the blue sockets from the belt.
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If you get the 4 T5 set, you would then be short a blue and a yellow and not two blues if you had already changed your belt. Of course, the helm takes a yellow slot, but only for a stamina bonus. Now, I realize that the temptation would be to keep your belt as it currently is (with 2 blues) and use the yellow as a glinting to get the meta requirements. However, this would be an extra blue used, and the following numbers fully raid buffed and with your gear, spec, and rotation (1:1.5 with IAS I assume from your spec) (I manually entered it all into Cheeky's - it doesn't take long):
DPS: 1379.34
EW AP: 286.1
Hit: 127
Well, that would put you 32 over the hit rating. I really do not know what you have to switch out hit rating for possibly better DPS. Besides your T5, the options are your cape, your belt, and your boots.
You could switch the cape for the badge cape to get:
DPS: 1381.82 (+2.48)
EW AP: 285.77 (-0.33)
Hit: 110
For +1.82 total raid DPS. Not a big improvement but one never the less.
Next, I figured you do not plan to change out your boots since you put epic gems in them, and I do not know what other belts you have available. So let's assume you keep those.
How I would gem this gear set instead is put +8 agi gems in the yellow socket in the helm and the 2 blue sockets in the belt (as currently planning to do) then replace the +10 agi gem in the yellow socket of your boots with +5 crit and +7 sta gem (Jagged Seaspray Emerald) to count as both a blue and a yellow to meet meta gem requirements and to get the +3 agi socket bonus. This results as:
DPS: 1385.35 (+3.53)
EW AP: 286.55 (+0.78)
Hit: 106
For a +5.09 total raid DPS by gemming differently with your T5 set.
So with that said, feel free to regem your belt now.
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Originally Posted by Sillyman
This is the one I use to duplicate a 1 to 1.5 rotation (5 points improve arcane shot no multi used)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() The big difference if you will notice.. is there is NO reset=x in these macros. This for me has really helped with my high latency situation in keeping the kill command bug from happening. Its only weakness is it will cast steady, then auto every time in that order. If you stop a fight before the auto goes off then the next fight will start with a auto shot and not a steady shot. It is not a big deal though imo. I however don't use kill command as survival spec. But when using kill command as beast those are the macros I would use (assuming windserpent as beast also). |
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady (repeat)
With your ordering of the castsequence, I believe you will get:
steady-auto-arcane-steady-auto (repeat)
Which from modeling in Cheeky's cost you about 33 DPS and 0.56 on your EW AP since you are not taking advantage of the timing of the shots ideally. Suggest switching the auto shot and the steady shot around in the castsequence.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 05/02/08 at 6:25 PM.
Today when I got back from a two day absence I got greeted by two new hunters in the guild and got the message that I finally will be let out to do some real dps instead of being locked into my soloist dummer carrier in the maintank group.
The group setup of the day was a resto shaman, feral druid, two bm hunters and myself the survival hunter and when we got to teron i had the pleasure of finally doing some real dps again after months of attempting to break 2k dps and this is the result;
WWS
Still have alot of room for improvement when it comes to getting the haste effects right with so many new players in the group, but it seems that the hunters in the guild can get a brighter future after today atleast. And hopefully the DST's will start to fall from the sky soon or atleast the sunwell haste gear.
The group setup of the day was a resto shaman, feral druid, two bm hunters and myself the survival hunter and when we got to teron i had the pleasure of finally doing some real dps again after months of attempting to break 2k dps and this is the result;
WWS
Still have alot of room for improvement when it comes to getting the haste effects right with so many new players in the group, but it seems that the hunters in the guild can get a brighter future after today atleast. And hopefully the DST's will start to fall from the sky soon or atleast the sunwell haste gear.
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Originally Posted by Dynnyn
Hey, been looking through pretty much this whole thread and i'm getting highly confused by all the macros. If its possible could somebody either explain to me what the different shot rotations are, with macros, or point me to where i can find them all out?
Also if it aint to much of a hassle could somebody take a peek at my gear, and let me know what i cna do to, firstly, improve my own dps, and secondly whislt improving my dps how can i keep my agility nice and high? cheers in advance for any help |
UNHASTED/CC not an issue
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
UNHASTED/CC an issue
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
HASTED
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
Remove the Lightning Breath line if you do not have a Wind Serpent. Also remove the KC line if it is causing your problems mana wise and DPS-wise to use it due to clipped shots.
Another option is to use the HASTED macro all the time and when unhasted to hand-weave in your multishots and arcane shots, alternating, after every other steady cast when have no CC and just arcane shot after every third steady when have CC.
Concerning your gear, you have 139 HR and only need 95 with Surefooted. With that in mind, I would suggest the following:
1) Drop your neckpiece and have a JC make you a [Necklace of the Deep] and gem it with 2 +8 agi gems. This will reduce you by 15 HR to 124. This results in +2.1 personal DPS and +5.86 EW AP for +13.8 raid DPS.
2) Drop Garonna's ring for the new badge ring, [Angelista's Revenge]. It's a huge DPS/EW improvement. This reduces hit by another 18 to 106. This is +16.0 DPS and +3.1 EW AP for +22.2 raid DPS.
Obviously, other upgrades to your gear exist, but some depend on drops or getting additional badges. These are the two big ones the should be priorities. Another option is if you have arena points to get the s3 helm for +8.8 DPS and ).5 EW AP for +9.9 raid DPS.
Another upgrade would be to fix your gemming. The biggest is your meta gem. Suggest replacing it with a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. This would require some regemming to to meet the requirements. The best I found is living your +12 crit in the helm and updating the 2 gems in your belt to be a [Shifting Nightseye] in the blue socket and a [Jagged Talasite] in the yellow socket. This is +8.4 DPS and +0.48 EW AP for +9.36 raid DPS.
The next suggestion I would make has to do with your spec. I would move one of the points in Combat Experience to get 3/3 in EW. Even with assuming perfect rotation (which minimizes the benefit of that 3rd EW point), the result is -0.5 DPS (the loss from the 1% agility is almost made up for by the extra EW AP) and +15.56 EW AP for +30.6 raid DPS.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I will tell you right now, with noone of any help to you, you should be around 1300-1400 optimally. You just can't break 2k all by your lonesome as SV>
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With noone to aid you you should be sitting around 1600-1900dps depending on several factors, like your latency, your fps, your spec and your gear while still giving out a massive buff.
I've done a bit of work to try to model the effects of latency with regard to 7/20/34 or similar builds.
As has already been mentioned on this thread the key is having the right ammount of haste so that a 2:1 rotation drops to a 3:2 rotation when IaoTH or Haste procs.
If my simulations are correct then:
For a 3.0 weapon the hasted weapon speed required to move to 3:2 is ( 2.0 + latency )
For a 2.8 weapon the hasted weapon speed required to move to 3:2 is aproximately (1.94 + latency)
These figures would appear to match the values where other people have noticed step increases in their damage output because they have sufficient haste to trigger a change of rotation. Felspine + Cloak + Drums being the most common.
It is also worth noting that a lower latency might actually reduce overall dps in some cases.
As has already been mentioned on this thread the key is having the right ammount of haste so that a 2:1 rotation drops to a 3:2 rotation when IaoTH or Haste procs.
If my simulations are correct then:
For a 3.0 weapon the hasted weapon speed required to move to 3:2 is ( 2.0 + latency )
For a 2.8 weapon the hasted weapon speed required to move to 3:2 is aproximately (1.94 + latency)
These figures would appear to match the values where other people have noticed step increases in their damage output because they have sufficient haste to trigger a change of rotation. Felspine + Cloak + Drums being the most common.
It is also worth noting that a lower latency might actually reduce overall dps in some cases.
Greetings fellow hunters,
I'd like some feedback on what DPS levels one should expect from someone with my gear level and specc. I prefer using macros to manually do my rotations. I'm using a WS as pet and I usually run on around 180-250 latency.
Depending on the boss, my results range between 900ish and about 1.1k-ish.
Hunters do not get attention in groupings in our raids, so usually I have no GoA totem, SPriest. Perhaps a feral if I'm lucky.
I've also been very unlucky with drops, as we've killed VR on a weekly basis since February and no leggings have dropped. I have the badges to get the ring, but I'd rather save them and get the legs.
Any ball-park figure would be appreciated, as I'm hitting my head on a wall, trying to realise if there's room for improvement or not.
Cheers
I'd like some feedback on what DPS levels one should expect from someone with my gear level and specc. I prefer using macros to manually do my rotations. I'm using a WS as pet and I usually run on around 180-250 latency.
Depending on the boss, my results range between 900ish and about 1.1k-ish.
Hunters do not get attention in groupings in our raids, so usually I have no GoA totem, SPriest. Perhaps a feral if I'm lucky.
I've also been very unlucky with drops, as we've killed VR on a weekly basis since February and no leggings have dropped. I have the badges to get the ring, but I'd rather save them and get the legs.
Any ball-park figure would be appreciated, as I'm hitting my head on a wall, trying to realise if there's room for improvement or not.
Cheers
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Originally Posted by Midnight
From what I can see your crit rate is very low for a survival hunter with LotP. It say 35% steady and 34% auto shot crit in your whereas for example Osse had 52% steady and 53% auto shot crit. 17-19% crit diffrence seems like either a lot of bad luck or - more likely - some big equipment discrepancies. Your average normal or crit damage per shot doesn´t seem to differ that much from his actually. ...
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Actually only got 47%steady and 34%auto crits. (you looked at a BM try, but still, wtf)
My main equip is for BM yes, but I certainly dont lack much crit as SV.
Anyway nm that post i should ve never linked a WWS with mid-respec and 11 tries. Will wait for next reset
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Originally Posted by Haroc
Today when I got back from a two day absence I got greeted by two new hunters in the guild and got the message that I finally will be let out to do some real dps instead of being locked into my soloist dummer carrier in the maintank group.
The group setup of the day was a resto shaman, feral druid, two bm hunters and myself the survival hunter and when we got to teron i had the pleasure of finally doing some real dps again after months of attempting to break 2k dps and this is the result; WWS Still have alot of room for improvement when it comes to getting the haste effects right with so many new players in the group, but it seems that the hunters in the guild can get a brighter future after today atleast. And hopefully the DST's will start to fall from the sky soon or atleast the sunwell haste gear. |
a Naj'entus kill WWS
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=2.52 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
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Originally Posted by Maelith
I've done a bit of work to try to model the effects of latency with regard to 7/20/34 or similar builds.
As has already been mentioned on this thread the key is having the right ammount of haste so that a 2:1 rotation drops to a 3:2 rotation when IaoTH or Haste procs. If my simulations are correct then: For a 3.0 weapon the hasted weapon speed required to move to 3:2 is ( 2.0 + latency ) For a 2.8 weapon the hasted weapon speed required to move to 3:2 is aproximately (1.94 + latency) These figures would appear to match the values where other people have noticed step increases in their damage output because they have sufficient haste to trigger a change of rotation. Felspine + Cloak + Drums being the most common. It is also worth noting that a lower latency might actually reduce overall dps in some cases. |
If anyone has crunched the numbers any better than I have, please let us know what you're finding for the sweet spot on passive haste to put us into a 3:2 rotation and at what speed it happens. Definitely think this is some very important knowledge for survival hunters going forward in Sunwell trying to figure out exactly where they want to go with their gear.
Good call Maelith and Aern.
I've been testing the last few days with hasting.
First I only had 21 from Vanirs right fist but still had some steady chaining, ergo bought the left fist too for a total of 44 haste.
Will test today again. Hopefully next saturday the cloak from Zul'Aman will drop.
I've been testing the last few days with hasting.
First I only had 21 from Vanirs right fist but still had some steady chaining, ergo bought the left fist too for a total of 44 haste.
Will test today again. Hopefully next saturday the cloak from Zul'Aman will drop.
Ok, I'm new to survival and I can't quite seem to figure it out.
On my current armory page is the gear I have on hand for survival, like I said, I'm new to it, and I know there needs to be some changes. According to Cheeky's ss I should sit around 977 dps assuming no buffs (I don't break 800 yet unbuffed).
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I'm using my pet, including kill command, and this macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and the second half of the macro
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Is there a better macro I should be using? Are there any tips you can offer to help me improve?
In addition I don't have access to the "best" gear since the guild I'm in doesn't raid anything pre T6 level. What would you recommend I do about that? Are there T6 pieces I can use in every slot to not suck? On the spreadsheet I'm sitting at 975 agi, but I need to swap 2 gems to greens for my meta.
TL,DR: Help me, I'm a noob.
On my current armory page is the gear I have on hand for survival, like I said, I'm new to it, and I know there needs to be some changes. According to Cheeky's ss I should sit around 977 dps assuming no buffs (I don't break 800 yet unbuffed).
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I'm using my pet, including kill command, and this macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
and the second half of the macro
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Is there a better macro I should be using? Are there any tips you can offer to help me improve?
In addition I don't have access to the "best" gear since the guild I'm in doesn't raid anything pre T6 level. What would you recommend I do about that? Are there T6 pieces I can use in every slot to not suck? On the spreadsheet I'm sitting at 975 agi, but I need to swap 2 gems to greens for my meta.
TL,DR: Help me, I'm a noob.
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Originally Posted by Epk
I was looking at your wws file and am curious to what shot rotation/macro you use? For some reason I believe that I am gimping myself with a bonk'd 1:1.5 rotation and I don't know it. Usual latency is 90-110
a Naj'entus kill WWS #showtooltip Steady Shot /castsequence reset=2.52 !Auto shot, Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /castrandom Arcane Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
I would personaly go for the 1:1.5 rotation manually with both multi shot and arcane shot, it should result in better dps than your macro once you have gotten a hang of it.
I'm not sure about the results of the scaling macro with your current gear, but it might be worth a try even though you are abit on the low side when it comes to haste. If it doesn't work you could try the badge crossbow instead, it should let you get into the 3:2 and 1:1 zone which is where that macro starts to shine(you would probably need to respec 7/20/34 for the iaoth proccs also).
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Originally Posted by Epk
I was looking at your wws file and am curious to what shot rotation/macro you use? For some reason I believe that I am gimping myself with a bonk'd 1:1.5 rotation and I don't know it. Usual latency is 90-110
a Naj'entus kill WWS #showtooltip Steady Shot /castsequence reset=2.52 !Auto shot, Steady Shot /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /castrandom Arcane Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
Epk, check the log file with filtering for your shots. For a IAS build, your rotation 1:1.5 should look like:
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady (repeat)
with extra autos and arcane after times of non-neligible interruptions to your rotation. If you look at your log, you are not achieving the rotation. For instance, you have a lot of places of auto-arcane-steady-auto or auto-arcane-auto, which hurts your DPS. In addition, there were many multishots placed in too. I do not understand why with a IAS build you would be using multishot on a single target. If you want to use multishot, suggest dropping IAS and using those 5 points in something else; otherwise, I suggest not using multishot on single targets since it kind of defeats the purpose of having IAS.
Practice your rotation method on Dr. Boom or something similar and experiment with it and various macros or hand-weaving until you find the method that works for you for more ideally implementing the rotation.
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Originally Posted by Osse
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I have been reading up on this thread since it's inception, so I would hope that I grasp the general mechanics well.
WWS - Anon report as I am not allowed to share outside of guild normally.
Group setup was excellent:
2x BM Hunters
1x Resto Shaman
1x Feral Druid
Myself (Listed as Deimos on the anon report)
I am manually weaving with a ping of around 400-450.
I have tryed using the various macro's posted, but they just don't seem to work for me.
Any suggestions or critique for me would be greatly appreciated.
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the proper thread to be asking this question, but since I'm a surival hunter I figured this would be the best place to ask it.
Tonite while we were on Gorefiend, another hunter asked if he had higher armor than normal because he was noticing a string of low hits. This prompted me to take a look at recount and when I did, I noticed the bm hunter was doing 1600 dps, auto shots landing for 1100 and critting steady shots for 2600. I was doing ~10-1200 dps, auto shots landing for 100 and critting steady shots for 2300. And I suppose I should add that the marks hunter was doing about the same as the bm hunter in how hard he was hitting, though lower than me in overall damage done.
Given that the bm hunter has 300 less ap than I do, and the marks hunter has about 500 more ap than me. I'm wondering if the difference here is the bows we use. They're using the xbow of relentless strikes while I am using sunfury. I don't understand the math at all, but would it really amount to 100-300 difference in shot damage while I have all the bonuses to damage and crit? Or is there something else I'm just not considering? I mean, they hit for the same, even with their different specs, which doesn't make one bit of sense to me.
Tonite while we were on Gorefiend, another hunter asked if he had higher armor than normal because he was noticing a string of low hits. This prompted me to take a look at recount and when I did, I noticed the bm hunter was doing 1600 dps, auto shots landing for 1100 and critting steady shots for 2600. I was doing ~10-1200 dps, auto shots landing for 100 and critting steady shots for 2300. And I suppose I should add that the marks hunter was doing about the same as the bm hunter in how hard he was hitting, though lower than me in overall damage done.
Given that the bm hunter has 300 less ap than I do, and the marks hunter has about 500 more ap than me. I'm wondering if the difference here is the bows we use. They're using the xbow of relentless strikes while I am using sunfury. I don't understand the math at all, but would it really amount to 100-300 difference in shot damage while I have all the bonuses to damage and crit? Or is there something else I'm just not considering? I mean, they hit for the same, even with their different specs, which doesn't make one bit of sense to me.
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Originally Posted by Haroc
I'm using the haste scaling two part macro which was last seen in Balidor's post above this one.
I would personaly go for the 1:1.5 rotation manually with both multi shot and arcane shot, it should result in better dps than your macro once you have gotten a hang of it. I'm not sure about the results of the scaling macro with your current gear, but it might be worth a try even though you are abit on the low side when it comes to haste. If it doesn't work you could try the badge crossbow instead, it should let you get into the 3:2 and 1:1 zone which is where that macro starts to shine(you would probably need to respec 7/20/34 for the iaoth proccs also). |
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Epk, check the log file with filtering for your shots. For a IAS build, your rotation 1:1.5 should look like: auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady (repeat) with extra autos and arcane after times of non-neligible interruptions to your rotation. If you look at your log, you are not achieving the rotation. For instance, you have a lot of places of auto-arcane-steady-auto or auto-arcane-auto, which hurts your DPS. In addition, there were many multishots placed in too. I do not understand why with a IAS build you would be using multishot on a single target. If you want to use multishot, suggest dropping IAS and using those 5 points in something else; otherwise, I suggest not using multishot on single targets since it kind of defeats the purpose of having IAS. Practice your rotation method on Dr. Boom or something similar and experiment with it and various macros or hand-weaving until you find the method that works for you for more ideally implementing the rotation. |
I'll see what I can come up with in the next few raids and Dr. Boom trials. Thanks for the advice and tips guys appreciate it.
Haroc, nice one, Im surprised the 2 bms didnt pull in more than they have. Our kill in that time frame with a lust gave me almost 2950 ish.
So I've read in a few places that Cloak of Fiends and Felspine (or 75-78 haste rating) are right near optimal. Can anyone explain what this is based on? I have my eye on a few other pieces, including Carapace of Sun and Shadow (38HR) and Clutch of Demise (30HR). Would having all 4 of these items be detrimental to a straight 2:1 somehow?
For most people roughly 80 passive haste rating + drums + IaotH means 3:2 rotation. Funny that I passed twice on the cloak as I thought it was worthless.
Well then you've also got the M'uru trinket (Blackened Naaru Sliver) with a whopping 54 haste. What I'm trying to figure out is whether it might work well to go for broke and be shooting for 150-200 HR.
So this weekend, I finally acquired a Wind Serpent (I know I probably should have done this sooner, but it's hard to abandon a pet you have had for years. I wish we had more stable slots.)
I first acquired one in Feralas so I could learn Dive in case it is useful. Then I abandoned that one and acquired one in Netherstorm, which I have leveled to 70 and obtained its loyalty.
Since I have been pretty much been playing my ravager for all BC raiding, I am not really knowledgeable on the best way to use the Wind Serpent. I have gone through the thread some, but I do not know how current the information is. Can someone please provide me some tips on effectively using a Wind Serpent.
I first acquired one in Feralas so I could learn Dive in case it is useful. Then I abandoned that one and acquired one in Netherstorm, which I have leveled to 70 and obtained its loyalty.
Since I have been pretty much been playing my ravager for all BC raiding, I am not really knowledgeable on the best way to use the Wind Serpent. I have gone through the thread some, but I do not know how current the information is. Can someone please provide me some tips on effectively using a Wind Serpent.
Whitefyst,
Make sure you turn off the lightning breath auto cast on your pet bar and put LB into your macro. If you don't the serpent will try and get range to cast it and then go back in hurting dps. If it's in a macro it will cast whenever it has the focus.
Make sure you turn off the lightning breath auto cast on your pet bar and put LB into your macro. If you don't the serpent will try and get range to cast it and then go back in hurting dps. If it's in a macro it will cast whenever it has the focus.
Thanks for all the info and responses!!
While we are talking about pets.
Saturday I changed from wind serpent to an owl for screech.
Problem is, the owl casts screech almost every 2-3 seconds. Since you only need to recast it after 3-4 seconds I'd like to use claw as a secondary skill to avoid wasting precious focus points and thus loosing dps.
What about something like this:
/cast reset=4 Screech, null
/cast Claw
It will cast Screech, but only if it has not been used in the last 4 seconds.
Saturday I changed from wind serpent to an owl for screech.
Problem is, the owl casts screech almost every 2-3 seconds. Since you only need to recast it after 3-4 seconds I'd like to use claw as a secondary skill to avoid wasting precious focus points and thus loosing dps.
What about something like this:
/cast reset=4 Screech, null
/cast Claw
It will cast Screech, but only if it has not been used in the last 4 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Chanii
While we are talking about pets.
Saturday I changed from wind serpent to an owl for screech. Problem is, the owl casts screech almost every 2-3 seconds. Since you only need to recast it after 3-4 seconds I'd like to use claw as a secondary skill to avoid wasting precious focus points and thus loosing dps. What about something like this: /cast reset=4 Screech, null /cast Claw It will cast Screech, but only if it has not been used in the last 4 seconds. |
I tried this and couldn't really get it to work properly. I suspect that castsequence isn't built to work with pet abilities
I was trying /castsequence Screech, Claw, Claw (as a new line in my regular shot macro), and I mostly just got Screech spam, but sometimes my pet would get stuck on Claw spam and screech would fall off the mob. Screech and Claw autocast were both disabled.
I ultimately gave up messing with it, and just tamed a Bat with bite and screech both on auto-cast. Screech's damage-to-focus ratio isn't that much worse than Claw's, as a focus-dump.
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
Assuming you meant /castsequence reset=4 Screech, null
I tried this and couldn't really get it to work properly. I suspect that castsequence isn't built to work with pet abilities I was trying /castsequence Screech, Claw, Claw (as a new line in my regular shot macro), and I mostly just got Screech spam |
/castsequence reset=4 Screech, !AutoShot, !AutoShot
with claw on autocast?
That might work.
I'm having a problem with my rotation macro. While farming mobs I'm seeing upwards of 3 steadies in a row without an auto, using my wolfslayer sniper rifle still caused this problem. If I slow down my spam a little it corrects slightly, but not consistently. If I use my legionkiller I've seen up to 5 steadies in a row. What would cause this problem? I'm using the 2 part split macro atm.
Do I need more haste? Is my low latency interfering with me? Do I need to get a wind serpent?
In addition, what skills should I teach a wind serpent?
Do I need more haste? Is my low latency interfering with me? Do I need to get a wind serpent?
In addition, what skills should I teach a wind serpent?
Last edited by Balidor : Yesterday at 7:58 PM.
Possible fix for Master Tactician
This is my first post on Elistist Jerks, although I have read many of the posts I am unsure if I will screw something up.
I have been a long time fan of Survival, but have always been disgusted with the final talents of our talent tree. The fact that mid-level and entry-level talents in the other two trees are more viable than getting to our 41 point talent is wrong. The main reason I have found for this, and I am sure most would agree, is that Master Tactician is a terrible talent to dump 5 points into.
I started thinking about why this was so, and came upon the reasoning that with the availability of decent gear from so many places that a chance to proc 10% crit is fairly negligble in terms of increased DPS. Furthermore, most of the high end builds are preferring to either go with a Haste build ans use Improved Aspect of the Hawk, or sticking with Barrage and going for a nice Armor Ignore build.
Master Tactician should be changed to:
"Your ranged critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to ignore 20% of your opponent's armor."
Hopefully, I can get some decent feedback about the effects of a change such as this, and whether or not many of the intelligent Hunters out there feel this would be a solid improvement to the Survival tree.
I have been a long time fan of Survival, but have always been disgusted with the final talents of our talent tree. The fact that mid-level and entry-level talents in the other two trees are more viable than getting to our 41 point talent is wrong. The main reason I have found for this, and I am sure most would agree, is that Master Tactician is a terrible talent to dump 5 points into.
I started thinking about why this was so, and came upon the reasoning that with the availability of decent gear from so many places that a chance to proc 10% crit is fairly negligble in terms of increased DPS. Furthermore, most of the high end builds are preferring to either go with a Haste build ans use Improved Aspect of the Hawk, or sticking with Barrage and going for a nice Armor Ignore build.
Master Tactician should be changed to:
"Your ranged critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to ignore 20% of your opponent's armor."
Hopefully, I can get some decent feedback about the effects of a change such as this, and whether or not many of the intelligent Hunters out there feel this would be a solid improvement to the Survival tree.
Since Expose Weakness increases damage for all Physical Damage, anyone have the math on reccomended number me physical in a raid for a Survival Hunter to be most effective? One of my friends is a BM Hunter in a SSC / TK, but they normally raid with 3-5max melee/other hunters, not including tanks. Is Expose Weakness a good increase in threat generation as well?
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Originally Posted by Quamutei
Since Expose Weakness increases damage for all Physical Damage, anyone have the math on reccomended number me physical in a raid for a Survival Hunter to be most effective? One of my friends is a BM Hunter in a SSC / TK, but they normally raid with 3-5max melee/other hunters, not including tanks. Is Expose Weakness a good increase in threat generation as well?
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Originally Posted by Aeon
Master Tactician should be changed to:
"Your ranged critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to ignore 20% of your opponent's armor." Hopefully, I can get some decent feedback about the effects of a change such as this, and whether or not many of the intelligent Hunters out there feel this would be a solid improvement to the Survival tree. |
Buffing MT to any significant degree would have 2 effects, both of which seem detrimental to the game to me:
1. We would all become homogenized in spec and lose the 0/28/33 vs 7/20/34 vs 0/20/41 (etc) diversity that we have. Boring.
2. We might do too much dps, which combined with the EW debuff, puts us out of line with other classes. The fact that the top 6 points in survival are weak, plus the lack of good survival gear at the mid-top end (BT/Hyjal, before the haste approach becomes truly attractive) seems intentional on blizzard's part, as a method of keeping our dps on a leash.
I'm making these comments without even evaluating your specific suggestion, but if you want MT buffed, why make it more complicated? Just pump the numbers up a bit and keep the current skill mechanics the way they are. Plus, your suggestion makes MT scale inversely (and inverse scaling is Always Bad) with gear and raid makeup - more static ArPen means a percentage reduction is less effect.
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Originally Posted by Aeon
I am sure most would agree, is that Master Tactician is a terrible talent to dump 5 points into.
I started thinking about why this was so, and came upon the reasoning that with the availability of decent gear from so many places that a chance to proc 10% crit is fairly negligble in terms of increased DPS. Furthermore, most of the high end builds are preferring to either go with a Haste build ans use Improved Aspect of the Hawk, or sticking with Barrage and going for a nice Armor Ignore build. Master Tactician should be changed to: "Your ranged critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to ignore 20% of your opponent's armor." |
Sure, for end game Survival hunters going the 2:1, 3:2, 1:1 route, it may not be the best option, but it is still an option for them. It is even more so an option for SV hunters who have not reached that the required level of gearing or do not have sufficient raid haste support to successfully pull off the steady-auto spam for maximum DPS.
I agree with Gearknight that it is a boon that SV hunters have several options to try to see which works best for their priorities, their playing style, their preferences, and their stage of hunter evolution.
For my hunter who has not yet evolved to the end-game SV hunter rotations and am still doing 1:1.5, I find MT very useful, the 3.73% "average" extra crit rate is very beneficial for me considering all of the my abilities that depend on crit, which include:
1) My DPS
2) My pet's DPS since my crits both generate focus for my pet and proc Kill Command
3) My EW (uptime and average proc)
4) My mana since TotH procs on crit, which is especially important with my relatively mana starved build
How does MT theoretically effect these items? The following is the theoretical effect of removing the 5 points in MT and the point in Readiness.
1) Overall DPS drops by about 40 with 35 of that being personal DPS. This number does not include the possible additional DPS gain from extra Rapid Fires from Readiness and the additional survivability/utility from Readiness (for MDs, FDs, traps, Deterrence, etc.)
2) Pet DPS drops by about 5 DPS, which is not that big of a deal
3) EW uptime is reduced by only 0.5% with only a 1.5 AP (about 3.0 raid DPS) drop. However, this is when ideally performing the rotation, which never happens. In real raid situations, the benefits of MT to EW are much larger.
4) 1% more mana return. This isn't very significant by itself, but it helps.
As can be seen, although, besides personal DPS, MT benefits individual items by a small amount each, the overall benefit when you add them all up is significant.
Now what do I get if I spend these points differently for my character?
First for a 0/26/35 build with 2 in RWS, the losses for 2), 3) and 4) are unchanged from just dropping MT/Readiness above. So the only factors are personal DPS, which is 2.5 DPS worse for total DPS of about 7.5 worse than the 0/20/41 build. Considering that the DPS difference does not even include factoring in the benefits from extra RFs, this is clearly an inferior build for my character.
For a 0/26/35 build with 2 in CE:
1) Personal DPS is about 13.5 less and overall DPS is about 16.5 less without taking into account the benefit of extra RFs
2) Pet DPS is about 3 DPS less
3) Although EW uptime is reduced to 98.81 (-0.4%), the average proc +4.9 AP (about +9.8 raid DPS). However, this gain in raid DPS from the other physical DPS in the raid does not make up for the loss in overall personal DPS and is actually a loss of 6.7 overall raid DPS. This is even more of a loss when not all of the physical DPS is on the same target as you.
4) About a 0.8% loss in mana return; however, this is more than made up by the additional mana from CE.
Theoretically, it appears that this build is inferior to the 0/20/41 build for my character as well.
For a 6/20/35 build with 5/5 IAotH and 1/2 FF (just 1 since only messing with the 6 points removed with no MT/Readiness) with using best DPS rotation available for QS:
1) About a 13 personal DPS loss but overall only 10 overall personal DPS loss do to pet DPS improvement. Once again this does not include the benefits of extra. It also assumes that when QS randomly procs that ideal switch is made between the 1:1.5 and 3:2 rotations; however, this is not likely to happen unless you have a macro that accounts for it.
2) Pet DPS is about 3 better
3) Average EW AP is about 1.3 AP worse for about 2.6 raid EW DPS loss
4) Although still have the 1% loss to TotH benefit, that is more than made up by the mana savings when going to 3:2 during QS.
Although this spec does provide better mana usage, it can be argued that for my hunter's current situation that it is an inferior spec due to the 12.6 overall raid DPS loss as well as the loss of the utility of Readiness.
Thus, as a demonstrated above, MT is a very nice ability for many SV hunters depending on their stage of hunter evolution.
Concerning your suggested change to MT, it is an interesting idea, but it also seems a little over-powered. Considering that a typical MH/BT boss has 7700 armor, 20% equates to 1540 armor penetration. That is a huge amount. Taking 1540 armor penetration instead of 5/5 MT, this has the same results for 2), 3), and 4) for the dropping MT build but with 52 more DPS. For endgame SV hunters doing a steady-auto spam under often-hasted conditions and putting out a lot more shots than I do, the DPS benefit is even larger.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Soccs
I have 2 Dagger of Mojo to use or the daggers for MGT heroic with a 10agility gem in them. what you guys think would be best for my personal dps?
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Anyway, I will answer your question with using my character in the analysis. Note though that due to spec, rotation, and other gear differences, my results may not be the same as for your character, so please check it out for yourself.
[Breeching Comet] with 2x[Delicate Crimson Spinel]:
DPS: 1438.44
EW AP: 306.24
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]:
DPS: 1444.23
EW AP: 301.70
As can be seen, the ZA daggers provide about 6 more personal DPS but about 4.5 less EW AP, which is approximately 9 raid DPS assuming 0.25 AP to DPS ratio and 8 other physical DPS on the target. Which is better for you depends on your priorities and raid situation. If you prefer personal DPS over raid buff or typcially have less other physical DPS in the raid, then consider the ZA daggers. If you prefer to maximize your EW buff to the raid then choose the MgT axes. My preference is maximizing my overall raid contribution (personal DPS + EW AP raid DPS), so I would pick the axes.
If you are in MH and have sufficient health, I would suggest [Blade of Infamy] as a better alternative. The data for them is:
DPS: 1445.69
EW AP: 306.24
Obviously, even better alternatives exist in Sunwell, but I believe that those items are currently out of your reach as they are for me as well.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 05/07/08 at 5:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by sparnicus
The nice thing about being survival is nobody but you cares how much damage you do.
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As others have pointed out, SV hunters need to maximize their DPS contribution to the raid. Doing so does not only involve trying to maximizing your EW proc, it also involves trying to maximize your personal DPS. Often for SV hunters, the two go hand in hand, but sometimes they conflict and your have to give up a little in one area over the other in order to get an overall raid DPS improvement.
My main goal is helping my guild kill bosses, and as such, it really doesn't matter where I am on the meters as long as that goal is being achieved. However, I personally want the satisfaction of knowing that I am contributing the best I can to that goal. Doing so is not easy and means that I do my homework on how to be an effective SV hunter, understand the strategy for the boss, bring the ideal set of consumables, and do my best to most effectively perform. As such, for non-AoE boss fights, I am usually dissappointed if I do not end up in the top 5, despite usually not being in the ideal grouping. Also, I care more about total damage done over DPS. Higher DPS is nice (I can get some pretty good numbers for 15s or so if I use all my best abilities at once), but it is no good if it doesn't result in more damage done on the boss (i.e, pull aggro and die, too much down time, etc.)
In fact, for the 4 MH fights last night, I believe I finished 4th on Rage, 3rd on Anetheron, 3rd on Kaz (although was conserving mana most of the fight), and 1st on Az. Now I realize that part of this result is luck in not getting effects that take you out of combat for a while, such as the Doom on Az; however, much of it is understanding the battle and effectively perfoming, such as being at full range as much as possible and spreading out when appropriate to limit AoE effects on you, to limit DPS downtime.
I mention this not to brag, since as I said killing the bosses is what is important, but to illustrate that SV hunters can very effective raiders, even before getting the 4 T6 bonus, in personal DPS if one puts in the appropriate level of deligence.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Soccs,
Get a neck of the deep crafted and a belt of deep shadow to make up for the hit loss on the neck.
I personally use with a 0/28/33 build;
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
I am intrigued by the 7/20/34 based on Aerevyn's comments since I only have 3 pieces of Gronn but have a fair number of lw'ers. I think I'm going to try the /cast macro tonight and see how it goes with a 7/.. build.
Get a neck of the deep crafted and a belt of deep shadow to make up for the hit loss on the neck.
I personally use with a 0/28/33 build;
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=2.1/combat/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
I am intrigued by the 7/20/34 based on Aerevyn's comments since I only have 3 pieces of Gronn but have a fair number of lw'ers. I think I'm going to try the /cast macro tonight and see how it goes with a 7/.. build.
Last edited by ghungadihn : 05/07/08 at 6:52 PM.
ty very much guys. Today it dropped Starstalker Legguards from Kalecgos so im pretty much capped with hit
Im still testin this macro i have it the dps is good ill spam it here.
Thanks for all guys
Im still testin this macro i have it the dps is good ill spam it here.
Thanks for all guys
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Suggest looking into getting Cheeky's hunter's spreadsheet (look for the hunter spreadsheet forum on this site) to use as a tool for performing this evaulation yourself.
Anyway, I will answer your question with using my character in the analysis. Note though that due to spec, rotation, and other gear differences, my results may not be the same as for your character, so please check it out for yourself. [Breeching Comet] with 2x[Delicate Crimson Spinel]: DPS: 1438.44 EW AP: 306.24 [Dagger of Bad Mojo]: DPS: 1444.23 EW AP: 301.70 As can be seen, the ZA daggers provide about 6 more personal DPS but about 4.5 less EW AP, which is approximately 9 raid DPS assuming 0.25 AP to DPS ratio and 8 other physical DPS on the target. Which is better for you depends on your priorities and raid situation. If you prefer personal DPS over raid buff or typcially have less other physical DPS in the raid, then consider the ZA daggers. If you prefer to maximize your EW buff to the raid then choose the MgT axes. My preference is maximizing my overall raid contribution (personal DPS + EW AP raid DPS), so I would pick the axes. If you are in MH and have sufficient health, I would suggest [Blade of Infamy] as a better alternative. The data for them is: DPS: 1445.69 EW AP: 306.24 Obviously, even better alternatives exist in Sunwell, but I believe that those items are currently out of your reach as they are for me as well. |
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Originally Posted by Equalizer
Wait, so 280 Armor Pen only gives you 6 more personal DPS? I understand the 14 agi difference between the two, but I thought armor pen accounted for more then that.
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With Armor Penetration the benefit increases tremendously with raid de-buffs like sunder and faerie fire. So make sure you are factoring those in when comparing.
Does anyone have a mod that watches your haste? Based on Aerevyn's comments to give 7/20/33 a shot and do the 1.5:1 during non haste times and then switch to the /cast /cast macro once I get some haste on. I recently pl'd leather working to get drums and the drummer boy mod makes it easy to see when drums are up, but staring at kht to watch for quickshots is a pain in the arse. I found a rogue speedometer on curse but it is outdated and only works on melee.
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Does anyone have a mod that watches your haste? Based on Aerevyn's comments to give 7/20/33 a shot and do the 1.5:1 during non haste times and then switch to the /cast /cast macro once I get some haste on. I recently pl'd leather working to get drums and the drummer boy mod makes it easy to see when drums are up, but staring at kht to watch for quickshots is a pain in the arse. I found a rogue speedometer on curse but it is outdated and only works on melee.
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Also check out PowerDisplay, from wowace. I have mine set to show my ranged attack speed, but I believe you could also have it show haste rating.
I had a quick question about which types of ranged weapons I should be using as a survival hunter. Currently I'm using [Truestrike Crossbow]. Never had much luck on any of the bow drops in Kara thus far, but I just want to make sure I'm going after the right one. According to Cheeky's spreadsheet I get the most benefit from [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and shows [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] as a slight upgrade over the [Truestrike Crossbow].
I guess my question is which ranged weapon should I be shooting for from Kara/ZA to maximize my DPS?
I guess my question is which ranged weapon should I be shooting for from Kara/ZA to maximize my DPS?
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Originally Posted by wvbean
I had a quick question about which types of ranged weapons I should be using as a survival hunter. Currently I'm using [Truestrike Crossbow]. Never had much luck on any of the bow drops in Kara thus far, but I just want to make sure I'm going after the right one. According to Cheeky's spreadsheet I get the most benefit from [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and shows [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] as a slight upgrade over the [Truestrike Crossbow].
I guess my question is which ranged weapon should I be shooting for from Kara/ZA to maximize my DPS? |
Ohrion & Gearknight, thanks for the responses I'll give them a shot.
| I had a quick question about which types of ranged weapons I should be using as a survival hunter. Currently I'm using [Truestrike Crossbow]. Never had much luck on any of the bow drops in Kara thus far, but I just want to make sure I'm going after the right one. According to Cheeky's spreadsheet I get the most benefit from [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and shows [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] as a slight upgrade over the [Truestrike Crossbow]. |
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Originally Posted by huntcaudata
Not only should Sunfury be your best bet, but I would go so far as to say that your spreadsheet is not set up correctly if you are not seeing it as a huge (>50dps) upgrade over the Truestrike. Wolfslayer should be somewhere in between these two. Are you re-adjusting your shot rotation after swapping weapons (and what rotation are you using)? They are different speeds, so you'll need to do this. Are your enchants the same on each? I would just like to ensure you're set up so that you're not seeing other gear choices incorrectly too.
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Originally Posted by wvbean
I have it set using a 1:1.X rotation (which I assume is the same 1:1.5 macro rotation that I use). Only thing I change is the weapon between Truestrike to Sunfury and I see a 5dps increase with Sunfury.
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yeah not sure what I'm doing wrong in the spreadsheet. With zero buffs I'm showing a 5ish dps increase. With full buffs I'm showing exactly the same dps between the two. I'm using the latest spreadsheet (47) if that matters. I'll play around with it more tonight.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by wvbean
yeah not sure what I'm doing wrong in the spreadsheet. With zero buffs I'm showing a 5ish dps increase. With full buffs I'm showing exactly the same dps between the two. I'm using the latest spreadsheet (47) if that matters. I'll play around with it more tonight.
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Last edited by Kitara : 05/08/08 at 6:13 PM.
I'm in 5/5 MH 6/9 BT progressing guild, and in the raids there's always 1-3 (me included) hunters. They're all BM/MM. We have also a few rogues/dps warrs with us. Now, I've been wondering, is Survival a good choice now to go, or should I stay BM? When I take a look at the Hunter specs of Sunwell guilds I always see BM, but never Survival. Hence why I'm doubting if Survival is still worth it or not.
Regardless the answer, I was also wondering, how much dps difference is there between a BM Hunter and Survival Hunter if the Surv Hunter has this spec?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I realize my questions are a bit nubbish, but I still need to know. Thanks.
Regardless the answer, I was also wondering, how much dps difference is there between a BM Hunter and Survival Hunter if the Surv Hunter has this spec?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I realize my questions are a bit nubbish, but I still need to know. Thanks.
Reinforce,
You certainly don't need a marks hunter in there. Survival definitely buffs the raid as a whole and does respectable damage. Go survival your physical dps'ers will thank you. I just yesterday went with that spec so my verdict is still out, you need a /cast /cast macro to use when haste procs. I am a big fan of 5/5 imp arcane shot because it works very well with a castsequence and random arcane shot something like 28/33 I think is how I rolled. You should try 28/33 first since you will see better dps without brain damage, once you get 4 gronn give imp hawk a shot. Read back from about page 73 where the /cast macro stuff started and the brutallis discussions are.
Without a doubt get one of your guys to go survival if not you, I beat bm's from time to time but I usually have a shadow priest so haste pots help out.
You certainly don't need a marks hunter in there. Survival definitely buffs the raid as a whole and does respectable damage. Go survival your physical dps'ers will thank you. I just yesterday went with that spec so my verdict is still out, you need a /cast /cast macro to use when haste procs. I am a big fan of 5/5 imp arcane shot because it works very well with a castsequence and random arcane shot something like 28/33 I think is how I rolled. You should try 28/33 first since you will see better dps without brain damage, once you get 4 gronn give imp hawk a shot. Read back from about page 73 where the /cast macro stuff started and the brutallis discussions are.
Without a doubt get one of your guys to go survival if not you, I beat bm's from time to time but I usually have a shadow priest so haste pots help out.
Well the raid definitely wants a Survival Hunter and I didn't minded, though the only two things that stop me from doing so is that I don't see any survival hunters in the topguilds and as BM Hunter atm I'm always in top3 dps.
I can take my guess that Survival Hunters go back to BM once they start Sunwell?
I can take my guess that Survival Hunters go back to BM once they start Sunwell?
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Originally Posted by Reinforce
Well the raid definitely wants a Survival Hunter and I didn't minded, though the only two things that stop me from doing so is that I don't see any survival hunters in the topguilds and as BM Hunter atm I'm always in top3 dps.
I can take my guess that Survival Hunters go back to BM once they start Sunwell? |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Reinforce
Well the raid definitely wants a Survival Hunter and I didn't minded, though the only two things that stop me from doing so is that I don't see any survival hunters in the topguilds and as BM Hunter atm I'm always in top3 dps.
I can take my guess that Survival Hunters go back to BM once they start Sunwell? |
The actual amount of dps a Survival hunter brings to their raid is difficult to quantify.
Under optimum conditions, the following forumla can be used.
S + ((0.3 x E x D)+(0.2 x E x T))
Where...
S is the Survival Hunter's personal DPS
E is the value of the Surv hunter's Expose Weakness
D is the number of hunters, rogues, dps warriors, enhancement shamans, catform druids
T is the number of tanks, pets
Like I said though, this is optimum conditions i.e. each of those players using their class to it's absolute 100% maximum potential dps (which never happens) and also is considering an EW uptime of 100% (which is only possible with 100% crit rate (again, not possible).
The following is more accurate
S + (((0.3 x E x D x P)+(0.2 x E x T x Pt)) x U)
Where...
U is your EW uptime expressed as a decimal % (90% = 0.9)
P is "short-of-potential dps" value, or inefficiency*.
Pt is "short-of-potential dps" value, or inefficiency*.
P (and Pt) is probably the hardest number to model of all here. It boils down to how far short of optimum dps each class falls.
e.g. RogueX's spreadsheet says he could be doing 2k dps but he actually does 1800dps thus he is at 90% efficiency. By working out an efficiency % for each bracket (dps & pet/tank) you can model your actual raid benefit.
Pets can safely be assumed to be at around 90% spreadsheet efficiency provided they are alive, attacking and have an owner with mana.
Also note this is only applicable when all dps are focusing on the same target, in fights where the dps is split (e.g. Kael'thas or Al'ar in Tempest Keep) a hunter's EW value is greatly reduced though these tend to be fights where raid dps is not the pressing issue.
So, lets take a typical Brutallus raid as an example.
We'll say there's 3 hunters, 5 melee dps, 2 tanks.
Lets say our SV hunter has a raid-buffed 1200 agility.
Lets also say that each melee dps and BM hunter are doing 1800 dps and say that this is 90% of potential dps. These numbers are plucked out of the air but not altogether unrealistic.
Lets say the Survival Hunter is doing 1600 dps.
Finally, let's say that the Surv hunter's EW uptime is 90% (my char's spreadsheet says 93.4% but spreadsheets only show us optimal).
Given this data we can value our Survival Hunter.
1600 + (((0.3 x 300 x 8 x 0.9)+(0.2 x 300 x 5 x 0.9)) x 0.9) = 2426.2 RAID dps
You can knock the various efficiency numbers back a long way before a Survival Hunter becomes a poor choice. It is basically viable once you have more than 4 physical dps in the raid (including the SV hunter) and invaluable with many more than that. What's even better is that the class of greatest benefit is... the hunters! BM in particular but even the SV pet will do well out of the deal.
I hope that answers people's questions about the actual value of a SV hunter.
EDIT: I had a little conclusion I forgot to add here.
Essentially the point is, a Survival Hunter is worth more than a BM hunter provided his personal dps is close enough behind (approx 5-15% behind is normal). If you have a raid leader who is meter-horny, he will probably never see your point until you hit Brutallus at which point he'll be begging one of you to spec SV. In all honesty, before Brutallus an SV Hunter isn't neccessary** (it's still viable and good to have and often better damage due to melee restrictions e.g. Supremus).
**Small disclaimer, even at Brutallus, an SV hunter isn't an absolute necessity but it's one of those things that if you can have, why not! By this progression stage, at least 1 hunter should have a viable Surv set (though the know-how of Surv dps'ing is a different matter).
Last edited by Aerevyn : 05/08/08 at 9:56 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Looking for guidance on increasing DPS with provided info.
I am using the 2 part macro mentioned on previous page(s) and the G15 keyboard.
Armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
I can push around 1100 maintained DPS unbuffed on Dr. Boom. I was doing a bit more then that with a manual rotation with IAS and barrage.
I've respec'd to 7/20/34 to test the macro, and I cannot provide WWS as of yet but I will be able to this weekend.
At any rate this seams low for gear/spec - I'm a bit overwhelmed with the theory craft and looking to tune my DPS in line with similar spec/geared hunters for the Sunwell runs.
I do realize I don't have the 4 piece bonus yet - but I was really hoping to close in on 1500-1600 maintained "As-Is".
Any thoughts/suggestions criticism?
I am using the 2 part macro mentioned on previous page(s) and the G15 keyboard.
Armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
I can push around 1100 maintained DPS unbuffed on Dr. Boom. I was doing a bit more then that with a manual rotation with IAS and barrage.
I've respec'd to 7/20/34 to test the macro, and I cannot provide WWS as of yet but I will be able to this weekend.
At any rate this seams low for gear/spec - I'm a bit overwhelmed with the theory craft and looking to tune my DPS in line with similar spec/geared hunters for the Sunwell runs.
I do realize I don't have the 4 piece bonus yet - but I was really hoping to close in on 1500-1600 maintained "As-Is".
Any thoughts/suggestions criticism?
Last edited by memnauk : 05/08/08 at 10:48 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Nice to see that after 2 days no real constructive feedback on my actual post, just epeens who want to argue symantics. It WAS a joke, but I'm also saying there's less number chasing involved in the spec. People want you for the buff, as opposed to BM who have no utility past the damage they do.
Postscript: If you are doing 95% of your BM hunters on any fight, but most especially pre Sunwell, your BM hunters are horrible.
Postscript: If you are doing 95% of your BM hunters on any fight, but most especially pre Sunwell, your BM hunters are horrible.
Last edited by sparnicus : 05/09/08 at 12:31 AM.
Aerevyn, wow, I never had such a constructive reply for my question. Thanks a LOT. I certainly now understand the value of a Survival Hunter. Thanks for your input!
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Does anyone have a mod that watches your haste? Based on Aerevyn's comments to give 7/20/33 a shot and do the 1.5:1 during non haste times and then switch to the /cast /cast macro once I get some haste on. I recently pl'd leather working to get drums and the drummer boy mod makes it easy to see when drums are up, but staring at kht to watch for quickshots is a pain in the arse. I found a rogue speedometer on curse but it is outdated and only works on melee.
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Ohrion's solution with ElkBuffBars also seem pretty neat.
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Does anyone have a mod that watches your haste? Based on Aerevyn's comments to give 7/20/33 a shot and do the 1.5:1 during non haste times and then switch to the /cast /cast macro once I get some haste on. I recently pl'd leather working to get drums and the drummer boy mod makes it easy to see when drums are up, but staring at kht to watch for quickshots is a pain in the arse. I found a rogue speedometer on curse but it is outdated and only works on melee.
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Power Auras | World of Warcraft Addons | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com
You get a customizable aura like this around your character (it also shows the timer on the buff gained):
http://media.curse.com/adjust_images...500/14/200.jpg
I configured it to show it anytime I receive a buff like Quick Shots, Heroism, Haste, Rapid Fire.
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Looking for guidance on increasing DPS with provided info.
I am using the 2 part macro mentioned on previous page(s) and the G15 keyboard. Armory link The World of Warcraft Armory I can push around 1100 maintained DPS unbuffed on Dr. Boom. I was doing a bit more then that with a manual rotation with IAS and barrage. I've respec'd to 7/20/34 to test the macro, and I cannot provide WWS as of yet but I will be able to this weekend. At any rate this seams low for gear/spec - I'm a bit overwhelmed with the theory craft and looking to tune my DPS in line with similar spec/geared hunters for the Sunwell runs. I do realize I don't have the 4 piece bonus yet - but I was really hoping to close in on 1500-1600 maintained "As-Is". Any thoughts/suggestions criticism? |
1100 on Dr. Boom suggests you're doing things right at any rate. Add to this raid buffs, drum rotations, heroism, rapid fire (unless you're already using that) and a fully sundered & CoR'd boss (also things arcane shot doesn't benefit from) and you'll begin to see the rewards.
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Originally Posted by sparnicus
Yeah, but here's what I'm saying. Since most haste rating up until this point came from bad badge gear, or ZA, the competition for slot is unbalanced when up against BT/MH. However, with Sunwell I'm REALLY feeling that the weather is changing.
Shivering Felspine: Trash Polearm (53 passive) Clutch of Demise: Brutallus Neck (30 passive) Carapace of Sun and Shadow: LW Chest (38 passive) Hard Khorium Band: JC Ring (28 passive) Blackened Naaru Sliver: M'uru Trinket (54 passive) Duplicitious Guise: Kil'jaeden Mask (34 passive) Apolyon, the Soul Render: Kil'Jaeden 2H Sword (32 passive) Cloak of Fiends: ZA Timed Cloak (25 passive) Every one of these items is debatably best in slot based on its other stats alone. However, with 4-6 of these items stacked, you have a clean 180-260 PASSIVE haste. 1% ranged/melee haste equates to about 15.8 rating, therefore 80 haste rating (AKA Drums of War) is approximately 5% haste. So we have: 10-15% passive 5% drums 15% IAotH That's looking like a pretty clean 2:3 to me. I'm really thinking of putting this to the test =). |
To to proove this point there is a simple method:
Try to aquire pieces of gear with haste on them, no matter what quality. Stack up 250 passive haste, move to blasted lands, start combatlog and shot the heck out of the testmob. Do the same procedure with your raid equipment.
After that plug in the endgame haste-gear into cheekys spreadsheet and calculate how hard each shot would hit on a standard raid boss.
Now multiply the damage with your shots, fired in blasted lands and calculate your DPS. Compare that to the DPS of your standard raidgear (calculated by recount or other Damagemeters in blasted lands).
Then you can see by which ammount your DPS will increase with theese endgame items.
No offense to cheeky, great work ,but I'm under the impression that the spreadsheet doesn't calculate SV DPS as accurate as BM DPS especialy with attackspeeds higher than 2,5s.
Whats the test mob in Blasted Lands?
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Originally Posted by Diasx
Whats the test mob in Blasted Lands?
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Getting that much haste is still a waste imo, you need 17-18% passive haste to drop to 3:2 when you are under drums only, that's still a lot of itemization points.
In my opinion the best way to balance it is to get enough to drop to 3:2 when Iaoth pops, and drop to 1:1 with rapid fire / heroism / haste pot. That means 8-10% passive haste, i guess, haven't really had a chanche to stress test how much is needed.
Another option would be using a faster weapon, Doomwalker gun comes to my mind here. I'm not sure how it would balance considering you get more agi but less weapon damage, but i guess at least dwarf hunters could take it in consideration with their 1% crit racial.
In my opinion the best way to balance it is to get enough to drop to 3:2 when Iaoth pops, and drop to 1:1 with rapid fire / heroism / haste pot. That means 8-10% passive haste, i guess, haven't really had a chanche to stress test how much is needed.
Another option would be using a faster weapon, Doomwalker gun comes to my mind here. I'm not sure how it would balance considering you get more agi but less weapon damage, but i guess at least dwarf hunters could take it in consideration with their 1% crit racial.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Ok, so I've been playing around alot in the spreadsheet and have come to a stunning conclusion that I just can't accept as being true. Tsunami Talisman and DST beat out EVERYTHING. Like everything since I first got the combination. I switched over the Ashtongue after finding the 3:2 SV spam macro in the hope to maximize dps, but the spreadsheet says TT will in the end grant me more.
Not to mention Neck of the Deep > The SSO neck, though I admit that thing is pretty good too. Have I really reached my cap on these three slots so long ago? I decided to take a look at it when I got passed up for madness last night and the numbers always end up favoring those trinkets. This is even as my HR changes.
I wonder if anyone has found a combination that cannot seem to be upgraded atleast as far as the spreadsheet is concerned? I ask because every maximized setup that I see uses Madness or BC or even Ashtongue.
Also, is there a way to link files in EJ or do I have to use a service a la SS to link my sheet?
Wunlastri's Spreadsheet Profile
Sparny; Well, we aren't exactly pre sunwell and I only turned back to SV recently. I wouldn't call it epeen, I wouldn't call them horrible. In that instance I had to basically prove the viability of SV to my guild so I got the 'magical' group makeup and consumables. But hey, your joke totally slayed the thread. Can't you tell?
Not to mention Neck of the Deep > The SSO neck, though I admit that thing is pretty good too. Have I really reached my cap on these three slots so long ago? I decided to take a look at it when I got passed up for madness last night and the numbers always end up favoring those trinkets. This is even as my HR changes.
I wonder if anyone has found a combination that cannot seem to be upgraded atleast as far as the spreadsheet is concerned? I ask because every maximized setup that I see uses Madness or BC or even Ashtongue.
Also, is there a way to link files in EJ or do I have to use a service a la SS to link my sheet?
Wunlastri's Spreadsheet Profile
Sparny; Well, we aren't exactly pre sunwell and I only turned back to SV recently. I wouldn't call it epeen, I wouldn't call them horrible. In that instance I had to basically prove the viability of SV to my guild so I got the 'magical' group makeup and consumables. But hey, your joke totally slayed the thread. Can't you tell?
Last edited by Wunlastri : 05/09/08 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Pettiness becomes me.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
1500-1600 dps on Dr. Boom would be insane if that's what you mean. Also don't forget that Dr. Boom tests become warped when you use Arcane Shot and Multishot (multi hits bombs, arcane has a lower partial resist rate because of his lower level).
1100 on Dr. Boom suggests you're doing things right at any rate. Add to this raid buffs, drum rotations, heroism, rapid fire (unless you're already using that) and a fully sundered & CoR'd boss (also things arcane shot doesn't benefit from) and you'll begin to see the rewards. |
I did get a chance to use the macro in ZA on a bear mount run last night. Essentially self buffed with major agi pot/warp meat and no drums I was around 1200 (assuming I could maintain constant damage output without moving to much).
The macro actually ran pretty smooth over the G15 (thanks for the guide) so that's great.
I suppose the real test will be the weekend SP attempts.
Based on my lower hit count - how would I speculate the amount of DPS I'm actually losing? Guildies are suggesting its fairly nominal and that as long as the EW proc is up they are happy. Personally, I would like to stay competitive in the DPS realm.
For Brutallis specifically hunters need to be in the 2k + ballpark. This is mainly to carry the other raid members that have difficulty getting to 1700dps (ret pallies, feral druids, shadow priests). At 1500dps a hunter is just a liability.
Now to get 2000+ dps a few things have to be true. You need 4 piece T6. You also need a well constructed "hunter group". The ideal group would be SV hunter, 2xBM hunter, feral druid and a shammy with a ret pally keeping up JoW. Thats not required but its ideal. Minimally you want three hunters in a group together with a shammy dropping GoA and popping Bloodlust and some sort of raid mana regen either from a shadow priest or JoW. you also want 3-4 leatherworkers in the group banging drums one after the other. Finally since you dont have mana issues you want haste pots.
I suppose a raid can be successful with only bringing a SV hunter and jamming them in a crappy group but you will only pull off 1500 or so dps and its really not worth bringing in other hunters in that situation.
Now to get 2000+ dps a few things have to be true. You need 4 piece T6. You also need a well constructed "hunter group". The ideal group would be SV hunter, 2xBM hunter, feral druid and a shammy with a ret pally keeping up JoW. Thats not required but its ideal. Minimally you want three hunters in a group together with a shammy dropping GoA and popping Bloodlust and some sort of raid mana regen either from a shadow priest or JoW. you also want 3-4 leatherworkers in the group banging drums one after the other. Finally since you dont have mana issues you want haste pots.
I suppose a raid can be successful with only bringing a SV hunter and jamming them in a crappy group but you will only pull off 1500 or so dps and its really not worth bringing in other hunters in that situation.
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Originally Posted by DarkDisciple
So I am wondering which tier 6 piece to keep wearing as my guild starts to kill shit in SP. All of the following are WAY better than t6 both in terms of damage, and in terms of the ammount of agility on them.
Mantle of Golden Forest is amazing (shoulder) Starstalker Legguards are amazing (legs) Bladed Chaos Tunic is amazing (chest) Gloves of Immortal Dusk are amazing (hands) That only leaves the helm slot to get the fourth piece of t6 from. The main problem I have with wearing t6 helm, is that it isn't really that good, aside from having 1-2 more agi than any other hat. Better off waiting for duplicitous guise, and wearing some other piece of tier 6? Also, my guild doesnt do kael anymore, so I am not likely to ever see a Thalassian Wildercloak. Was planning to use cloak of fiends. Good choice? -Thanks. |
But looking at this thread, BLizzard seems to have either planned this out or stumbled into greatness for SV dps. If they catered to our original fear based whining of always being a crummy support class then I fear by the time guilds cleared SWP SV would be catching a nerf.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
For Brutallis specifically hunters need to be in the 2k + ballpark. This is mainly to carry the other raid members that have difficulty getting to 1700dps (ret pallies, feral druids, shadow priests). At 1500dps a hunter is just a liability.
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Please clarify.
Last edited by memnauk : 05/09/08 at 12:26 PM. Reason: no coffee yet
Thanks for all the comments back. I went with elk bars, it works great. I setup a new buff bar expanding up that is red with only haste related buffs in it just above my cast bar, works great for switching macros. Last night our first council, I had no party support other than a shadow priest. With a 7/20/33, my own drums, haste pots, and my pet by my side not attacking so it wouldn't die in aoe, I hit 1300 dps also with only 3 piece gronn switching between a 1.5 and /cast /cast with haste. I don't have anything to compare it to but seems like pretty decent dps.
Here's the $64,000 question, we had 2 tokens drop an OT took one and i ended up with the other one with an unlucky roll. The pants are so inferior to Bow-stitched it's sad, I lose 25agi on one piece of gear, I think it is worth it for the interim 10% bonus to steady. It's tough to model the various haste states during a fight but according to Cheeky's on a straight 1:1 it comes out with higher dps. So anyone have a good idea if I am right in thinking 4piece > bowstiched? I am planning on getting the chest but may have to wait now that I picked up this pos.
Here's the $64,000 question, we had 2 tokens drop an OT took one and i ended up with the other one with an unlucky roll. The pants are so inferior to Bow-stitched it's sad, I lose 25agi on one piece of gear, I think it is worth it for the interim 10% bonus to steady. It's tough to model the various haste states during a fight but according to Cheeky's on a straight 1:1 it comes out with higher dps. So anyone have a good idea if I am right in thinking 4piece > bowstiched? I am planning on getting the chest but may have to wait now that I picked up this pos.
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Originally Posted by memnauk
So you are suggesting that unless I am kicking out a minimum of 1500 DPS then I should warm the bench? I have a hard time agreeing with that comment. If I can maintain 1300-1500 DPS then I'm still adding a huge raid benefit.
Please clarify. |
At 1300 dps you are 400dps under the 1700 you need to break even. It might be worth bringing you for the extra 300 raid dps they would net. However if you are that low a few things are wrong. You can personally beat 1300 dps with your gear in a shitty group. Im almost certain you are in a terrible group if you are pulling numbers that low on that content which means its probably not worth your raids time to bring other hunters along on that fight. Brutallus requires a high degree of group synergy.
What trinket do you normally wear on raids in place of the pvp one? If its not a trinket with +hit on it then you are saccing too many personal stats for a slightly improved EW proc. Add in 2 x +10hit gems and eat some hit food to get hit back where it needs to be. You might also consider just going with [Halberd of Desolation] until you get a second piece of haste gear like the ZA cloak. I dont think the single piece is doing anything special for you dps wise. Two pieces starts to show a decent benefit as has been posted previously.
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Originally Posted by ghungadihn
Here's the $64,000 question, we had 2 tokens drop an OT took one and i ended up with the other one with an unlucky roll. The pants are so inferior to Bow-stitched it's sad, I lose 25agi on one piece of gear, I think it is worth it for the interim 10% bonus to steady. It's tough to model the various haste states during a fight but according to Cheeky's on a straight 1:1 it comes out with higher dps. So anyone have a good idea if I am right in thinking 4piece > bowstiched? I am planning on getting the chest but may have to wait now that I picked up this pos.
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It's really going to be dependent on your loot/dkp system. For me having already purchased the Bow-stitched means that the token legs will be nearly free (maybe 5-10 dkp) which in the interim is totally worth it to bump up the 4 pc bonus.
Even if I take them - I will hopefully have another shot at the BP in the next 4-5 weeks so I'm not overly concerned; at this point I am willing to sacrifice a little to test the respec/rotation/dps increases suggested on this post.
It really boils down to how long you may have to wait for another shot at the BP, and if the set bonus outweighs the potential waiting period.
Good luck~
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
At 1300 dps you are 400dps under the 1700 you need to break even. It might be worth bringing you for the extra 300 raid dps they would net. However if you are that low a few things are wrong. You can personally beat 1300 dps with your gear in a shitty group. Im almost certain you are in a terrible group if you are pulling numbers that low on that content which means its probably not worth your raids time to bring other hunters along on that fight. Brutallus requires a high degree of group synergy.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
What trinket do you normally wear on raids in place of the pvp one? If its not a trinket with +hit on it then you are saccing too many personal stats for a slightly improved EW proc. Add in 2 x +10hit gems and eat some hit food to get hit back where it needs to be. You might also consider just going with [Halberd of Desolation] until you get a second piece of haste gear like the ZA cloak. I don't think the single piece is doing anything special for you dps wise. Two pieces starts to show a decent benefit as has been posted previously.
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Garona's ring (Kara) and the S3 PvP help to get closer in towards cap. I really don;t want to re-gem to much as the server gem vendor is close - as is my shot at the four piece.
I've also saved a large amount of badges so maybe I can up that hit with some of the badge gear.
Any suggestion how much more haste I want to push without overdoing it?
Thanks again for the input and suggestions.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Maybe a Belt of Deep Shadow to fix hit in the mean time without saccing too much stat wise. Haste wise, ~80 is a good number if you have drums up in group most of the time. Cloak of Fiends + Shivering Felspine is very close. This also depends on your personal latency. If you are sub 100ms it might not work so well. As you get to 150ms and beyond it starts to work better at that level of haste. This is assuming you are using a variantion of the /cast !auto /cast steady macro.
Other ways to get interim hit are the +30 hit scope from MC and looking at the badge crossbow. so is going back to Ranger General's Chest if you have that and socketing it appropriately. The new Badge legs are yet another. As far as AGI goes if you are over 900 unbuffed you are adding a good chunk of dps to the raid. Focus on maxxing your personal dps contribution to the raid after that.
Other ways to get interim hit are the +30 hit scope from MC and looking at the badge crossbow. so is going back to Ranger General's Chest if you have that and socketing it appropriately. The new Badge legs are yet another. As far as AGI goes if you are over 900 unbuffed you are adding a good chunk of dps to the raid. Focus on maxxing your personal dps contribution to the raid after that.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 05/09/08 at 2:24 PM.
I was just looking at the Gauntlets of Sniping badge gear. I can use two hit gems and drop the PvP gloves for 39 hit - that will level me out perfectly. I was using them when I still had barrage in my weave - which I am not using now
Thanks for the advice - the outside perspective helps me hash it out.
Thanks for the advice - the outside perspective helps me hash it out.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
For Brutallis specifically hunters need to be in the 2k + ballpark. This is mainly to carry the other raid members that have difficulty getting to 1700dps (ret pallies, feral druids, shadow priests). At 1500dps a hunter is just a liability.
Now to get 2000+ dps a few things have to be true. You need 4 piece T6. You also need a well constructed "hunter group". The ideal group would be SV hunter, 2xBM hunter, feral druid and a shammy with a ret pally keeping up JoW. Thats not required but its ideal. Minimally you want three hunters in a group together with a shammy dropping GoA and popping Bloodlust and some sort of raid mana regen either from a shadow priest or JoW. you also want 3-4 leatherworkers in the group banging drums one after the other. Finally since you dont have mana issues you want haste pots. I suppose a raid can be successful with only bringing a SV hunter and jamming them in a crappy group but you will only pull off 1500 or so dps and its really not worth bringing in other hunters in that situation. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by wvbean
I had a quick question about which types of ranged weapons I should be using as a survival hunter. Currently I'm using [Truestrike Crossbow]. Never had much luck on any of the bow drops in Kara thus far, but I just want to make sure I'm going after the right one. According to Cheeky's spreadsheet I get the most benefit from [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and shows [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] as a slight upgrade over the [Truestrike Crossbow].
I guess my question is which ranged weapon should I be shooting for from Kara/ZA to maximize my DPS? |
*edit* For me, the Sunfury is a 61dps upgrade over the WSR running a 1:1.5 arcane only rotation with Improved Arcane 5/5.
*edit 2* was working my way through the thread, and hadn't seen that this had already been answered.
Last edited by Leighlu : 05/09/08 at 5:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aern
My guild has had a rather strong distaste for hunters for a long time, (most of them have been raiding since MC days) and as a result only brings me to fights since im survival. Throwing me in the tank grp with a resto sham and feral tank on brut actually does fairly well for me since I get both goa and lotp even if i don't get lust and we don't use GOA i'm still able to throw up 1800 dps. So saying a survival hunter without a bm grp can't do anymore than 1500 dps is really setting the bar low, and I'm sure there are many SV hunters out there that get the same or less than me and are putting up better numbers. Gotta be willing to use those consumables though, major agi, major mageblood, superior mana oil, grilled mudfish, scroll of agility 5, dark runes, haste potion, fel mana potion, and drums of battle are all cons I use every fight on Brut, Fel Myst, and Twins and most of our good attempts on Muru. You just gotta be willing to farm the stuff you need to help yourself sustain mana/stats in a grp where you're largely on your own.
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I do about 1750dps in a crap group. The guy whose posts I was commenting on is missing several key pieces of gear, hence the 1500 guestimation.
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Originally Posted by Aern
My guild has had a rather strong distaste for hunters for a long time, (most of them have been raiding since MC days) and as a result only brings me to fights since im survival. Throwing me in the tank grp with a resto sham and feral tank on brut actually does fairly well for me since I get both goa and lotp even if i don't get lust and we don't use GOA i'm still able to throw up 1800 dps. So saying a survival hunter without a bm grp can't do anymore than 1500 dps is really setting the bar low, and I'm sure there are many SV hunters out there that get the same or less than me and are putting up better numbers. Gotta be willing to use those consumables though, major agi, major mageblood, superior mana oil, grilled mudfish, scroll of agility 5, dark runes, haste potion, fel mana potion, and drums of battle are all cons I use every fight on Brut, Fel Myst, and Twins and most of our good attempts on Muru. You just gotta be willing to farm the stuff you need to help yourself sustain mana/stats in a grp where you're largely on your own.
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On my guild's first few tries on Brutallus I was in the tank group like yourself... problem was we were't using shaman in tank group and both tanks were prot warriors.
[EDIT]Quiggy can speak for himself! Apologies if I put any words in your mouth.
In the "perfect hunter group" (SV, BM, BM, Sham, Feral), the biggest buffs in there are GoA & Feral (Heroism & drum rotations too ofc), not 2x +3% (which are still very nice). A Surv Hunter with NONE of these buffs will do well to beat 1600dps (even if there's an SPriest and/or Ret Pala)
Working with my own gear, LotP & GoA are worth around 70dps each to me. Each FI is worth about 45dps to me.
While you might not be getting the perfect group, you're still getting most of the best buffs available to hunters from grouping.
I've not yet had the oppurtunity on Brutallus since acquiring 4pc t6.
My best pre-4pc (actually using 2pc at the time and 2pc t5!) was ~1450 dps including 1 burn. Wasn't a kill though, was some of our very early learning on him. This was in a group with no synergy at all.
new runner
Good day to you all.
I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I just wanted to say and ask a few things. Thanks very much for all the information that continues to flow in this thread, it really is great to see soo many people dedicated to the class and the various play-styles that there are.
My second statement is asking for a tad bit of help. My DPS is lacking alot and i was wondering if someone could take a look at my profile and offer any small amount of contribution. I've linked the Armory and WWS of the last few fights.
Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS
Wow Web Stats
I manualy do my shot rotation exg. Auto-Arcane-Steady-Auto-steady- repeat.
Ps. I know i don't have a scope on the bow as i just made the 450 to get one.
Thanks again for any feed back.
I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I just wanted to say and ask a few things. Thanks very much for all the information that continues to flow in this thread, it really is great to see soo many people dedicated to the class and the various play-styles that there are.
My second statement is asking for a tad bit of help. My DPS is lacking alot and i was wondering if someone could take a look at my profile and offer any small amount of contribution. I've linked the Armory and WWS of the last few fights.
Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS
Wow Web Stats
I manualy do my shot rotation exg. Auto-Arcane-Steady-Auto-steady- repeat.
Ps. I know i don't have a scope on the bow as i just made the 450 to get one.
Thanks again for any feed back.
Infiltraitor, you're going to have to give us a better WWS to work from, Al'ar and Kael'thas are very atypical fights. Morogrim Tidewalker or any of the bosses in Hyjal you're currently doing would be better.
I can only make 2 suggestions from this post, shoulders, get agi gems.
Rotation, you said your rotation goes auto-arcane-steady? The first shot after any auto shot should always be steady.
The reason is that you can fire an instant (almost) immediately after a steady but you cannot fire a steady immediately after an instant. Thus to fit both shots between the 2 autoshots, you need to do the steady first.
I can only make 2 suggestions from this post, shoulders, get agi gems.
Rotation, you said your rotation goes auto-arcane-steady? The first shot after any auto shot should always be steady.
The reason is that you can fire an instant (almost) immediately after a steady but you cannot fire a steady immediately after an instant. Thus to fit both shots between the 2 autoshots, you need to do the steady first.
@Infiltraitor:
Shoulders need agi gems. Also, you are Scryer, which is the cheaper and easier of the two Shattrath factions, but are not exalted for the upgraded shoulder enchant. You have one more yellow (orange) gem than needed for the meta, which is inferior to an agi gem. Especially as an SV hunter, there are high agility items available for several slots that will outperform your current choices: [Necklace of the Deep] and [Belt of Deep Shadow] come immediately to mind; both increase both your personal dps and your EW magnitude per Cheeky's sheet.
I can't speak to your shot rotation. As noted, those aren't mobs that reveal normal behavior. But based on what you said you are manually weaving, you'll want to read through this thread for more information about rotations. Auto-Arcane-Steady is never the right answer.
Shoulders need agi gems. Also, you are Scryer, which is the cheaper and easier of the two Shattrath factions, but are not exalted for the upgraded shoulder enchant. You have one more yellow (orange) gem than needed for the meta, which is inferior to an agi gem. Especially as an SV hunter, there are high agility items available for several slots that will outperform your current choices: [Necklace of the Deep] and [Belt of Deep Shadow] come immediately to mind; both increase both your personal dps and your EW magnitude per Cheeky's sheet.
I can't speak to your shot rotation. As noted, those aren't mobs that reveal normal behavior. But based on what you said you are manually weaving, you'll want to read through this thread for more information about rotations. Auto-Arcane-Steady is never the right answer.
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Originally Posted by lockelee
Good day to you all.
I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I just wanted to say and ask a few things. Thanks very much for all the information that continues to flow in this thread, it really is great to see soo many people dedicated to the class and the various play-styles that there are. My second statement is asking for a tad bit of help. My DPS is lacking alot and i was wondering if someone could take a look at my profile and offer any small amount of contribution. I've linked the Armory and WWS of the last few fights. Armory The World of Warcraft Armory WWS Wow Web Stats I manualy do my shot rotation exg. Auto-Arcane-Steady-Auto-steady- repeat. Ps. I know i don't have a scope on the bow as i just made the 450 to get one. Thanks again for any feed back. |
auto, steady, multi, auto, steady, auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady
second, at your level of gearing imp aoth is doing nothing for you (especially with that rotation) so take all 7 points out of BM and put them in the SV tree. 20/41 is a good build for your gearing, especially considering your low crit rate.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Hello you hunters out there.
I got a question concerning the rotation.
I am running the 7/20/34 specc and I was wondering whether I should use Multi-Shot or not.
Because I think without having Barrage skilled the damage per mana sucks hard on multi shot.
Actually I do the following rotation(this even works under haste proccs, except Rapid Fire):
Auto - Steady - Arcane - Auto - Steady - Auto - Steady
The best result was about 1609.2 DPS at Nalorakk with no support just normal buffs. ( unfortunately I do not have a WWS log ).
Here is my Armory profile:
Arkedos - Armory Profile
I got a question concerning the rotation.
I am running the 7/20/34 specc and I was wondering whether I should use Multi-Shot or not.
Because I think without having Barrage skilled the damage per mana sucks hard on multi shot.
Actually I do the following rotation(this even works under haste proccs, except Rapid Fire):
Auto - Steady - Arcane - Auto - Steady - Auto - Steady
The best result was about 1609.2 DPS at Nalorakk with no support just normal buffs. ( unfortunately I do not have a WWS log ).
Here is my Armory profile:
Arkedos - Armory Profile
Last edited by Arkedos : 05/10/08 at 5:01 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
second, at your level of gearing imp aoth is doing nothing for you (especially with that rotation) so take all 7 points out of BM and put them in the SV tree. 20/41 is a good build for your gearing, especially considering your low crit rate.
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Because my Huntress (no 25 raids and yes, I'm a little bit over the hit-cap, thanks ) was just waiting for 2 more drops in ZA (cloak + ring) and maybe some tokens for the chest to switch from 21/40. I was under the impression that weapon speed/haste and which rotation/macros one uses are the determining factors Did I missunderstand something?
Edit: and while I'm at it: could somebody give me a hint how to put the 3:2 rotation into the spreadsheet? Is it like auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-steady-... ?
Last edited by Ruaduun : 05/10/08 at 5:52 AM.
Thank you all very much. I will get started on all that i need to fix. I will be raiding on sunday so i will try to get a better WWS log of the SSC/hyjah fights.
Sorry about that i my rotation was stated wrong. Steady does go first. I will read more to try to understand how to better the rotation.
thanks all of you that replied.
QuiggyB Serpent's Choice and Aerevyn
thanks again.
Ps. Do you think Legion Killer is better than Lady vash's Bow?
Sorry about that i my rotation was stated wrong. Steady does go first. I will read more to try to understand how to better the rotation.
thanks all of you that replied.
QuiggyB Serpent's Choice and Aerevyn
thanks again.
Ps. Do you think Legion Killer is better than Lady vash's Bow?
For a 1.5:1 rotation it really shouldn't matter between Vashj bow & Legionkiller. I had the Vashj bow & passed on Legionkiller because I didn't want to drop the crit but each unto their own with that choice.
If you want to use the 2:1/3:2/1:1 setup then you'll need the Vashj bow but until you get 4piece t6 this doesn't do any more damage than 1.5:1.
If you want to use the 2:1/3:2/1:1 setup then you'll need the Vashj bow but until you get 4piece t6 this doesn't do any more damage than 1.5:1.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Ruaduun
Thats interresting - could you be a tad more specific as to when (at what gear level or what key stats) it pays zu spec 7/20/34?
Because my Huntress (no 25 raids and yes, I'm a little bit over the hit-cap, thanks ) was just waiting for 2 more drops in ZA (cloak + ring) and maybe some tokens for the chest to switch from 21/40. I was under the impression that weapon speed/haste and which rotation/macros one uses are the determining factors Did I missunderstand something? Edit: and while I'm at it: could somebody give me a hint how to put the 3:2 rotation into the spreadsheet? Is it like auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-steady-... ? |
As long as you are doing a 1:1.5 rotation IAotH isnt going to do much for you because you are always waiting on the GCD. Once you move to the unlocked auto/steady spam macro (the 3:2 you mentioned) then haste beecomes beneficial. Gear wise this becomes a clear win when you get 4 pieces of T6. As for IAotH, it really becomes beneficial when you are able to stack ~80 passive haste (ZA cloak + Shivering Felspine) and get in a group with drums up most of the time. Until that point those points are, imo, best spent elsewhere. Having an item like DST helps too. At around 80 haste with drums up an IAotH proc will normally push you into a smooth 3:2 rotation. Thats why you see a lot of people going that way. Many of those people are in guilds working on or killing Brutallus where group synergy and a broad based desire for leatherworking have created groups with this kind of setup.
Another note on the 3:2 thing, you will want to get recount and go do a good amount of testing with it to make sure you arent chaining too many steadys and thereby wrecking your dps. How well it works depends on your latency, bow speed, etc. It smooths out a lot once your level of haste picks up. Again IAotH by itself doesnt do anything to fix it.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 05/10/08 at 11:39 AM.
Still way over my head when it comes to SV as I generally just lurked the BM section, so hoping you guys can help me somewhat. First off, here is my armory in SV gear (still specced BM though because I'm undecided on spec).
The World of Warcraft Armory
Now with my current gear, I think that any IAotH build is detrimental since a 1:1.5 rotation should suit me better based on what I've read.
What I've gathered is that a 0/24/37 or a 0/20/41 spec would be the best and I think one of these two specs would be best:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (24/37)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (20/41)
So my question is, since I've heard a lot of negatives about MT, will MT and Readiness for an extra Rapid Fire/AS/MS, will trump the 12% extra damage/MS when Multi Shot will probably be used every 11 seconds or so? I'm leaning to the 24/37 at the moment, but I don't have Excel or OpenOffice at the moment so I can't run Cheeky's spreadsheet.
As for gear, I've got three pieces I'm working on to replace with what I think are the best alternatives available to me:
[Necklace of the Deep] for my [Worgen Claw Necklace] (Making this later tonight)
[Belt of Deep Shadow] for my [Girdle of the Deathdealer] (I'm next for a pair of vortexes, so just need a bit of luck in SSC/TK)
[Vindicator's Chain Bracers] for my [Master Assassin Wristwraps] (Working on the honor on non-raiding nights),
that then leaves me with [Dory's Embrace] that I think really needs to be replaced, however I'm undecided between [Cloak of Fiends] and [Blood Knight War Cloak] or even an instance/raid drop I'm unaware of.
Any criticism or assistance would greatly be appreciated.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Now with my current gear, I think that any IAotH build is detrimental since a 1:1.5 rotation should suit me better based on what I've read.
What I've gathered is that a 0/24/37 or a 0/20/41 spec would be the best and I think one of these two specs would be best:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (24/37)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (20/41)
So my question is, since I've heard a lot of negatives about MT, will MT and Readiness for an extra Rapid Fire/AS/MS, will trump the 12% extra damage/MS when Multi Shot will probably be used every 11 seconds or so? I'm leaning to the 24/37 at the moment, but I don't have Excel or OpenOffice at the moment so I can't run Cheeky's spreadsheet.
As for gear, I've got three pieces I'm working on to replace with what I think are the best alternatives available to me:
[Necklace of the Deep] for my [Worgen Claw Necklace] (Making this later tonight)
[Belt of Deep Shadow] for my [Girdle of the Deathdealer] (I'm next for a pair of vortexes, so just need a bit of luck in SSC/TK)
[Vindicator's Chain Bracers] for my [Master Assassin Wristwraps] (Working on the honor on non-raiding nights),
that then leaves me with [Dory's Embrace] that I think really needs to be replaced, however I'm undecided between [Cloak of Fiends] and [Blood Knight War Cloak] or even an instance/raid drop I'm unaware of.
Any criticism or assistance would greatly be appreciated.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] are better than [Vindicator's Chain Bracers].
Also I recall someone asking for a mod a page or two ago.
WoWInterface Downloads : Hunter : Speedometer
Speedometer is a basic text display of your current ranged attack speed.
/speed lock - to toggle lock/drag it around
Also I recall someone asking for a mod a page or two ago.
WoWInterface Downloads : Hunter : Speedometer
Speedometer is a basic text display of your current ranged attack speed.
/speed lock - to toggle lock/drag it around
Last edited by Kabuto : 05/10/08 at 4:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
I agree and disagree. Hit rating is very important, but I agree that in many cases, depending on what gear/gem options that you have to tradeoff between to get fully hit capped, that just being close (within 4 to 5 HR) can often result in better DPS that getting fully capped. This is a case by case basis though and not a hard and fast rule.
Sure the pauldrons are good if you need the HR from them; however, there are many better DPS shoulders, including the s2 (and s3 if you have the arena rating), [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator], and [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]. All of these, with the exception of the s2 shoulders have much better DPS and all have at least slightly better to much better EW AP benefits. Here is where you are providing some major misinformation. At least for my 0/20/41 spec (which of course has higher crit rating than your spec) and other gear, [Berserker's Call] is so much better than [Tsunami Talisman] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. It has 7.1 and 10.0 better DPS and 0.6 and 0.5 better EW AP, respectively. I agree that [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is an awesome blue but even [Bloodlust Brooch] is slightly better for me as long as I am using it frequently. Unfortunately, I do not have [Tsunami Talisman], which is better than [Bloodlust Brooch] for me, or else I would be wearing it along with [Berserker's Call] as my trinkets until I gear enough to start doing a 2:1 rotation. If I use your spec with my gear, [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Berserker's Call] are even more better than [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. They have about 4 and 11 more personal DPS at a lost of only 0.7 EW AP for overall raid DPS gain. I also like the fact that I can control when I use these trinkets to use them in conjuction with haste effects to get even more DPS gains from them. Hence, many of us have very valid reasons for using trinkets other than [Hourglass of the Unraveller], especially considering how much better [Berserker's Call] is for most hunter spec and gear combinations. |
The World of Warcraft Armory
that is the hunter on my current realm that knows his shit and tops the dps meter as survival time and time again all through BT while still throwing out the extra AP from EW. ive seen lots of people use macros for their shot rotation and thats retarded. the shot rotation is never goign to be the same, its always changing your always moving around throwing stingers and arc shots when moving so i have no reason to believe its even worth testing. it dumbs the game down.
if you eve have questions about my theory on anything please feel free to make a toon on Terokkar realm, im always open to survival discussion and may talk your ear off if your curious about something. also feel free to check out any WWS at our guild forums, im not always on my hunter cuz sometimes i have to step in and tank since we have 1 pally tank that cant always make it but 90% of the time im pewing.
Aequitasxx(huntard)
Veritasxx(retardin/protadin)
I've been reading about survival spec. One of the things people suggest (as far as i've read at lesst) is possibly getting the arcane shot cooldown. They say that your weapon speed depends on how many points you should put into the talent. Does anyone have a graph or outline as to how many points for which spec to optimize arcane shot in a rotation?
Stutters, you might want to doublecheck a spreadsheet but I think you'll find you get a better benefit out of the SSO neck than the necklace of the deep. It's less agility but the amount of dps increase it would give you is enough to offset the benefits of the extra agil you'd be providing to the raid. I also don't know why you'd replace the master assasin wristwraps with the PvP bracers, the master assasin wristwraps have slightly less agil but a lot more AP and more crit, more than enough to offset the agil loss.
Cloak options are pretty limited sadly, whether the haste cloak is better depends on whether the haste will mess with your shot rotation.
Weaponwise I'd hope for a trollbane or do your best to get a pair of breeching comets out of heroic Magister's Terrace.
I'd recommend you start working on badges for the badge gloves if you don't have them yet, the stats on them are excellent, and then probably the ring after that since you're over the hit cap. Arenas suck I know but I also recommend doing enough of them to get an S3 helm. Even if you lose all your games you should still be able to get one with about 6 weeks of 10 games, which is about 1-2 hrs of time investment a week.
For a quick list of what gear is out there for survival check my survival gear page.
Cloak options are pretty limited sadly, whether the haste cloak is better depends on whether the haste will mess with your shot rotation.
Weaponwise I'd hope for a trollbane or do your best to get a pair of breeching comets out of heroic Magister's Terrace.
I'd recommend you start working on badges for the badge gloves if you don't have them yet, the stats on them are excellent, and then probably the ring after that since you're over the hit cap. Arenas suck I know but I also recommend doing enough of them to get an S3 helm. Even if you lose all your games you should still be able to get one with about 6 weeks of 10 games, which is about 1-2 hrs of time investment a week.
For a quick list of what gear is out there for survival check my survival gear page.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
Hello you hunters out there.
I got a question concerning the rotation. I am running the 7/20/34 specc and I was wondering whether I should use Multi-Shot or not. Because I think without having Barrage skilled the damage per mana sucks hard on multi shot. Actually I do the following rotation(this even works under haste proccs, except Rapid Fire): Auto - Steady - Arcane - Auto - Steady - Auto - Steady The best result was about 1609.2 DPS at Nalorakk with no support just normal buffs. ( unfortunately I do not have a WWS log ). Here is my Armory profile: Arkedos - Armory Profile |
Does anyone got any suggestions? I really need some help. Yesterday we tried Brutallus and I my DPS was about 1500. So i really need some help. The Spreadsheet does not work for me it is a bit buggy. I just wanna know if it is useful to weave in Multi-Shot while using the 7/20/34 specc and drop down to a 3:2 rotation with haste proccs or not.
Last edited by Arkedos : 05/12/08 at 6:15 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
Does anyone got any suggestions? I really need some help. Yesterday wie tried Brutallus and I my DPS was about 1500. So i really need some help. The Spreadsheet does not work for me it is a bit buggy.
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I can see you have the 4 set T6 bonus, and you are utilizing the 7/20/34 to help hasted rotations, yet you are not using a /cast /cast rotation. You even have your first 53 passive haste on the shivering felspine. Unless i misunderstood something here, you should probably go back to page 63 and read it again for your answers
Edit:
I can see you've edited your post to clarify a little. Personally i tend to stick with the 2:1/3:2/1:1 always now. The only time i use instants is to break steadyshot chains more or less. I do not think weaving in multishot will be beneficial in any way, since you will then be bypassing the steadyshot serverside queueing which is so beneficial for our timings. Judging by your gear you should be doing 1600-1800 on brutallus just sticking to /cast /cast in a non-beneficial group.
Last edited by Ondskaben : 05/12/08 at 7:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
Does anyone got any suggestions? I really need some help. Yesterday we tried Brutallus and I my DPS was about 1500. So i really need some help. The Spreadsheet does not work for me it is a bit buggy. I just wanna know if it is useful to weave in Multi-Shot while using the 7/20/34 specc and drop down to a 3:2 rotation with haste proccs or not.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
The macro he refers to is the 2-part macro (where 1 macro triggers the other).
Mine looks like this. 1st macro (the one you spam) #showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /cast !Auto Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath /cast Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() /script UIErrors 2nd macro (the one the 1st macro spams on your behalf, this needs to be on Bottom Left Bar, button 12) /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot |
Or should the macro just run it's cycle and stop?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Midnight
Depending on your other duties in that fight 1500 dps don´t seem all so bad. Do you have to run in and out of soaking grps? Do you have to keep scorpid sting up on Brutallus? What exactly does "no support" mean? No Heroism, Drums, JoW too? All those things do make a big diffrence in my experience.
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I am trying to get DST and I went to gruul over 30 times and it never dropped so far.
So concerning the stuff I read on page 63 and the following pages, I just should get some more haste items ( for example the jewelcrafter ring from sunwell or the cloak from ZA )?
I hope my english is okay and understandable, because I don't want to be on the banhammer.
Last edited by Arkedos : 05/12/08 at 9:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by MasterZeus
Did either of you try:
/castsequence reset=4 Screech, !AutoShot, !AutoShot with claw on autocast? That might work. |
/castsequence Kill Command, Screech
I think that would make Screech only cast once every 6 seconds (but potentially screw up your shot macro somewhat :S)
This is what I'm doing right now to get Screech to be cast every other attack. Its kinda nasty but I haven't found a cleaner way.
#showtooltip Kill Command
/petautocasttoggle Screech
/petautocasttoggle Claw
/castsequence [target=pettarget,exists] reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Then just make sure Screech is on and Claw is off before you start.
#showtooltip Kill Command
/petautocasttoggle Screech
/petautocasttoggle Claw
/castsequence [target=pettarget,exists] reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
Then just make sure Screech is on and Claw is off before you start.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Advice please :)
Hey there, been doing more reading up on all this SV hunter raiding malarcky, and i cant seem to find what talent build would be best for my level of gear, and thus what rotation to use.
At the moment I am using a 0/27/34 build with 2/2 Combat Experience and 2/3 EW, i realise now i should have 3/3 EW so i'll change to that regardless of what other changes i make. And with this build i am using this shot rotation macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
So if anybody can possibly give me any hints as to the best spec for my gear, and if my macro is wrong also let me know please.
1 side note, I would like to get some WWS reports but i dont know how to do it so could any1 explain to me how i go about doing this please
*edit* here is a link to my armoury: The World of Warcraft Armory
At the moment I am using a 0/27/34 build with 2/2 Combat Experience and 2/3 EW, i realise now i should have 3/3 EW so i'll change to that regardless of what other changes i make. And with this build i am using this shot rotation macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
So if anybody can possibly give me any hints as to the best spec for my gear, and if my macro is wrong also let me know please.
1 side note, I would like to get some WWS reports but i dont know how to do it so could any1 explain to me how i go about doing this please
*edit* here is a link to my armoury: The World of Warcraft Armory
Last edited by Dynnyn : 05/13/08 at 11:12 AM.
So I'm plugging weapons into Cheeky's spreadsheet and I keep getting that S1 Xbow is better than S2 Xbow in a 1:1.X (multi/arcane). Bow bows appear better than Sunfury Bow of the Phoenixalso, which I've been told would be a great bow for awhile if I got it. Is it just because they are slower speed that its coming up this way? Is it just not accurate? Curious because I'll have enough Honor to buy S1 or I can wait until S2 switches to honor (which will probably be soon when S4 hits) or should I just hold out for Sunfury bow?
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
@Veritasxx
My response to your initial post (and to your response to my reply to it) had to do with your bold assertions that there was basically only one way to play survival hunter, that you were doing it, and that everyone else that was not doing it like you were idiots and did not know how the play the game despite the fact that you provided no evidence to backup your claims.
I provided some alternatives that work better for me and some others, along with information on why they do for some folks under given conditions. Others have responded to your original post with additional comments stating that your statements are not always the best option as you claim.
Your response back to my reply to your original post misinterprets much of my statements I made and further demonstrates your inflexibility into alternate ways of playing survival hunter. This reply is too clarify my intitial response and provide additional corroborating information.
Furthermore, as myself and other survival hunters in this thread have stated many times, playing survival hunter is not one size fits all, and there are various successful ways of doing so that work better depending on several factors, such as gear, priorities (maximize personal DPS, maximize EW, maximize raid DPS, etc.), available raid and group buffs and effects, latency and FPS, playing style, and personal preference.
Your way of playing survival hunter may be very successful for you, but that does not mean that it would be successful for everyone.
For someone whose character's name is derived from the Latin word for "truth" (veritas), you do not seem willing to search it out and try alternatives provided by others. And that is fine since it is your character, but please do not try to force your "truths" on others without evidence to back them up or call us retards for not accepting your version of "truth".
Obviously compared to the T6 shoulders, the PvP shoulders are worse, and I never claimed they are better. My comment was relative to listing upgrades to [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] if you do not need the hit rating. Obviously, if you need the hit rating either to get hit capped or to allow you to switch out another piece of hit gear for much better DPS gear, the [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] is a better option than the s2 shoulders. However, my comment was with not including the hit rating, which is better for DPS as indicated by the following quote:
"Sure the pauldrons are good if you need the HR from them; however, there are many better DPS shoulders"
As proof, here are the stats for both with assuming that for both +8 agi gems are placed in the red and yellow sockets and with including in the effects of Lightning Reflexes, Survivalist, Survival Intincts, and Blessing of Kings, which all raiding survival hunters should have as primary pally buff (Combat Experience helps s2 shoulders even more but didn't include in the analysis since not all survival hunters, including myself, have that talent):
[Merciless Gladiator's Chain Spaulders]
Armor: 715 + 121.4 = 836.4
Agility: 32 + 16 = 48 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 60.7
Stamina: 45 * 10 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 544.5 health
Intellect: 10 * 15 * 1.1 = 165 mana
AP: 24 + 60.7 = 84.7 * 1.04 = 88 + 15.2 = 103.3 AP
Crit: 14 = 0.63% + 60.7/40 = 2.15%
Dodge: 60.7/25 = 2.43%
EW AP: 60.7/4 = 15.2
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury]
Armor: 675 + 111.4 = 786.4
Agility: 28 + 16 = 44 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 55.7
Stamina: 30 * 10 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 363 health
Intellect: 0 * 15 * 1.1 = 0 mana
AP: 58 + 55.7 = 113.7 * 1.04 = 118.3 + 13.9 = 132.1 AP
Crit: 0 = 0.0% + 55.7/40 = 1.39%
Dodge: 55.7/25 = 2.23%
EW AP = 55.7/4 = 13.9
The difference calculated as s2 - pauldrons is:
Armor: 836.4 - 786.4 = 49.6
Agility: 60.7 - 55.7 = 5
Stamina: 544.5 - 363 = 181.4 health
Intellect: 165 -0 = 165 mana
AP: 103.3 - 132.1 = -28.8 AP
Crit: 2.15% - 1.39% = 0.76%
Dodge: 2.43% - 2.23% = 0.2%
EW AP: 15.2 - 13.9 = 1.3
For personal DPS, the difference is +0.76% crit versus -28.8 AP. Using the 40 AP = 1% crit rule of thumb (my current ratio in Cheeky's is 1% crit = 42.3 AP), 0.76% crit = 30.4 AP > 28.8 AP. However, that is close enough to be considered a wash or marginal victory since it equates to about only about +0.43 DPS.
Furthermore, there is the benefit to EW. Even without factoring the benefit of the additional crit to the EW uptime, the EW benefit of 1.3 AP is roughly an additional 2.6 raid DPS. So the total raid DPS benefit is about 3.0 DPS. But this is not the whole story.
With all things being equal DPS-wise, crit is more valuable than AP due to all of our abilities that the proc from crit, including EW, TotH, and the crit trinkets of which you are fond. Additionally, the additional intellect results in an extra 165 mana and mana regen when using AoV for a little more DPS uptime. Plus, the s2 shoulders provide more survivability with about +50 armor, +181 health, and +0.2% dodge.
Hence, with all things being considered (besides the hit rating since this analysis is if you do not need it), the s2 shoulders are better that the ZA ones, with the s3 shoulders being even more better.
Concerning your comment about using a 2Her in order to wear the s2 shoulders instead of the ZA ones, I never stated that. My comment concerning 2Hers was unrelated to the comment about the shoulders and stated:
"I couldn't agree more and personally do everything I can to be able to DW. However. there are legitimate reasons to 2H. The main being if you have the halbred and need it to be hit capped or if you do not currently have mana problems and your 2Her is better DPS than your 1Hers."
And for the record, I wear the s2 shoulders and use 2 1Hers.
First, let me quote myself again:
"At least for my 0/20/41 spec (which of course has higher crit rating than your spec) and other gear, ... I agree that [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is an awesome blue but even [Bloodlust Brooch] is slightly better for me as long as I am using it frequently."
I never said that the hourglass was bad, just that its not the best trinket for all survival hunters as you claimed, and I provided evidence of my assertion, while you have provided none for your claims.
Next, I never said that I cannot handle the proc on it. I used the hourglass for a long time and loved it, but replaced it when I got [Berserker's Call]. To quote myself again, I said:
"I also like the fact that I can control when I use these trinkets to use them in conjuction with haste effects to get even more DPS gains from them."
The meaning of this is that I like being able to choose when I get the effect from the trinket and can choose to use it at particular moments in the fights timeline aloong with haste effects to get the additional DPS from the synergy of combining the two effects. However, if I got [Tsunami Talisman], which is better than [Bloodlust Brooch], I would use it with its proc effect over the controlled effect of Bloodlust since it is a better trinket.
And I definitely know that I do not play my class perfectly and can play it better; however, I do believe that I understand it and play it sufficiently well with coming to this website to try to find alternatives to try out in attempts to help me play it even better.
First, to each their own in my opinion. If a person has found a macro that works well for them and results in them being successful, I do not see the problem with it. In fact, some macros do very well under the changing situations that with moving that you refer to and allow for other actions to be inserted if used properly.
My response to your initial post (and to your response to my reply to it) had to do with your bold assertions that there was basically only one way to play survival hunter, that you were doing it, and that everyone else that was not doing it like you were idiots and did not know how the play the game despite the fact that you provided no evidence to backup your claims.
I provided some alternatives that work better for me and some others, along with information on why they do for some folks under given conditions. Others have responded to your original post with additional comments stating that your statements are not always the best option as you claim.
Your response back to my reply to your original post misinterprets much of my statements I made and further demonstrates your inflexibility into alternate ways of playing survival hunter. This reply is too clarify my intitial response and provide additional corroborating information.
Furthermore, as myself and other survival hunters in this thread have stated many times, playing survival hunter is not one size fits all, and there are various successful ways of doing so that work better depending on several factors, such as gear, priorities (maximize personal DPS, maximize EW, maximize raid DPS, etc.), available raid and group buffs and effects, latency and FPS, playing style, and personal preference.
Your way of playing survival hunter may be very successful for you, but that does not mean that it would be successful for everyone.
For someone whose character's name is derived from the Latin word for "truth" (veritas), you do not seem willing to search it out and try alternatives provided by others. And that is fine since it is your character, but please do not try to force your "truths" on others without evidence to back them up or call us retards for not accepting your version of "truth".
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
pvp shoulders are awful, obviously T6 shoulders are great and something to grab in a second with your hit permitting, but using the 2hander in order to do so i dont see it as being viable. that would be nerfing yourself from doing so much more potential dmg and having that 20 hit on shoulders is amazing with the same agil as .)
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"Sure the pauldrons are good if you need the HR from them; however, there are many better DPS shoulders"
As proof, here are the stats for both with assuming that for both +8 agi gems are placed in the red and yellow sockets and with including in the effects of Lightning Reflexes, Survivalist, Survival Intincts, and Blessing of Kings, which all raiding survival hunters should have as primary pally buff (Combat Experience helps s2 shoulders even more but didn't include in the analysis since not all survival hunters, including myself, have that talent):
[Merciless Gladiator's Chain Spaulders]
Armor: 715 + 121.4 = 836.4
Agility: 32 + 16 = 48 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 60.7
Stamina: 45 * 10 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 544.5 health
Intellect: 10 * 15 * 1.1 = 165 mana
AP: 24 + 60.7 = 84.7 * 1.04 = 88 + 15.2 = 103.3 AP
Crit: 14 = 0.63% + 60.7/40 = 2.15%
Dodge: 60.7/25 = 2.43%
EW AP: 60.7/4 = 15.2
[Pauldrons of Primal Fury]
Armor: 675 + 111.4 = 786.4
Agility: 28 + 16 = 44 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 55.7
Stamina: 30 * 10 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 363 health
Intellect: 0 * 15 * 1.1 = 0 mana
AP: 58 + 55.7 = 113.7 * 1.04 = 118.3 + 13.9 = 132.1 AP
Crit: 0 = 0.0% + 55.7/40 = 1.39%
Dodge: 55.7/25 = 2.23%
EW AP = 55.7/4 = 13.9
The difference calculated as s2 - pauldrons is:
Armor: 836.4 - 786.4 = 49.6
Agility: 60.7 - 55.7 = 5
Stamina: 544.5 - 363 = 181.4 health
Intellect: 165 -0 = 165 mana
AP: 103.3 - 132.1 = -28.8 AP
Crit: 2.15% - 1.39% = 0.76%
Dodge: 2.43% - 2.23% = 0.2%
EW AP: 15.2 - 13.9 = 1.3
For personal DPS, the difference is +0.76% crit versus -28.8 AP. Using the 40 AP = 1% crit rule of thumb (my current ratio in Cheeky's is 1% crit = 42.3 AP), 0.76% crit = 30.4 AP > 28.8 AP. However, that is close enough to be considered a wash or marginal victory since it equates to about only about +0.43 DPS.
Furthermore, there is the benefit to EW. Even without factoring the benefit of the additional crit to the EW uptime, the EW benefit of 1.3 AP is roughly an additional 2.6 raid DPS. So the total raid DPS benefit is about 3.0 DPS. But this is not the whole story.
With all things being equal DPS-wise, crit is more valuable than AP due to all of our abilities that the proc from crit, including EW, TotH, and the crit trinkets of which you are fond. Additionally, the additional intellect results in an extra 165 mana and mana regen when using AoV for a little more DPS uptime. Plus, the s2 shoulders provide more survivability with about +50 armor, +181 health, and +0.2% dodge.
Hence, with all things being considered (besides the hit rating since this analysis is if you do not need it), the s2 shoulders are better that the ZA ones, with the s3 shoulders being even more better.
Concerning your comment about using a 2Her in order to wear the s2 shoulders instead of the ZA ones, I never stated that. My comment concerning 2Hers was unrelated to the comment about the shoulders and stated:
"I couldn't agree more and personally do everything I can to be able to DW. However. there are legitimate reasons to 2H. The main being if you have the halbred and need it to be hit capped or if you do not currently have mana problems and your 2Her is better DPS than your 1Hers."
And for the record, I wear the s2 shoulders and use 2 1Hers.
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
as for your thoughts on the trinkets it makes me absolutely crazy to see people say things like that. the hourglass is amazing, its gods gift to survival hunters. a blue that can never be outdone by hardly anything. if your having troubles with the proc on it then you should (no offense) learn how to play your class better period. paying attention and being ready for a proc is something that can change a lot of things. Ive recently gotten DST and it procs a shit ton, nearly every 30secs. using rapid fire/drums at the same time as DST going off is awesome because it puts me at a 1.4 shot speed and it destroys everything. being able to adjust to haste increases and such is something rogues/warriors/shamans have to do everytime mongoose goes off. beserkers call gives 20more AP from the use and no crit so its pointless to grab it over TT or hourglass. also the hit on TT is priceless giving you 10more hit to not worry about in gems/items.
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"At least for my 0/20/41 spec (which of course has higher crit rating than your spec) and other gear, ... I agree that [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is an awesome blue but even [Bloodlust Brooch] is slightly better for me as long as I am using it frequently."
I never said that the hourglass was bad, just that its not the best trinket for all survival hunters as you claimed, and I provided evidence of my assertion, while you have provided none for your claims.
Next, I never said that I cannot handle the proc on it. I used the hourglass for a long time and loved it, but replaced it when I got [Berserker's Call]. To quote myself again, I said:
"I also like the fact that I can control when I use these trinkets to use them in conjuction with haste effects to get even more DPS gains from them."
The meaning of this is that I like being able to choose when I get the effect from the trinket and can choose to use it at particular moments in the fights timeline aloong with haste effects to get the additional DPS from the synergy of combining the two effects. However, if I got [Tsunami Talisman], which is better than [Bloodlust Brooch], I would use it with its proc effect over the controlled effect of Bloodlust since it is a better trinket.
And I definitely know that I do not play my class perfectly and can play it better; however, I do believe that I understand it and play it sufficiently well with coming to this website to try to find alternatives to try out in attempts to help me play it even better.
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Originally Posted by Veritasxx
ive seen lots of people use macros for their shot rotation and thats retarded. the shot rotation is never goign to be the same, its always changing your always moving around throwing stingers and arc shots when moving so i have no reason to believe its even worth testing. it dumbs the game down.
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Last edited by Whitefyst : 05/13/08 at 5:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
First, to each their own in my opinion. If a person has found a macro that works well for them and results in them being successful, I do not see the problem with it. In fact, some macros do very well under the changing situations that with moving that you refer to and allow for other actions to be inserted if used properly.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Hi all - have transferred servers recently, and been running as BM until this week going back to SV. I'm using the same macro to generate a 2:1 rotation as I was using on my old server, but on my current one I'm chaining steadies like there's no tomorrow.
Here's an example from our Brutallus kill tonight: Overall raid and me personally.
Two things from the wws parse - I was keeping a scorpid rotation up (although not as accurately as I'd normally have liked, and my owl isn't included in the parse as being my pet, probably because i hadn't named him yet.
What concerns me though is the way I've chained steadies throughout the entirity of the fight. I'd noticed it was occurring sporadically, but it's only when I've seen the parse that I'm amazed how often it's happened that i haven't picked up on. It's horrific, and I've lost at least 500-600dps I think because of it. 1400 on that fight, with those buffs, is, well, embarassing. So I'm wondering - is there a way/method that people have to prevent chain steadies occuring in a 2:1 rotation? Here's the (two-part) macro I'm using:
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
Click is the standard KC !auto (x3) macro to prevent the lockup.
Can anyone help me find a solution that doesn't involve breaking the rotation?
Edit: Should mention I've tried breaking the macro into a /castrandom Steady instead of /cast with little difference on boom.
Second edit: Bah I'm an idiot, it should be /castsequence to prevent the chaining.
Here's an example from our Brutallus kill tonight: Overall raid and me personally.
Two things from the wws parse - I was keeping a scorpid rotation up (although not as accurately as I'd normally have liked, and my owl isn't included in the parse as being my pet, probably because i hadn't named him yet.
What concerns me though is the way I've chained steadies throughout the entirity of the fight. I'd noticed it was occurring sporadically, but it's only when I've seen the parse that I'm amazed how often it's happened that i haven't picked up on. It's horrific, and I've lost at least 500-600dps I think because of it. 1400 on that fight, with those buffs, is, well, embarassing. So I'm wondering - is there a way/method that people have to prevent chain steadies occuring in a 2:1 rotation? Here's the (two-part) macro I'm using:
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
Click is the standard KC !auto (x3) macro to prevent the lockup.
Can anyone help me find a solution that doesn't involve breaking the rotation?
Edit: Should mention I've tried breaking the macro into a /castrandom Steady instead of /cast with little difference on boom.
Second edit: Bah I'm an idiot, it should be /castsequence to prevent the chaining.
Last edited by Nebelwerfer : 05/14/08 at 10:45 AM.
Were you running 0/20/41 or 7/20/34? I believe the rotation you are using suffers from steady chaining less if you are hasted and utilizing 7/20/34. When 0/20/41, I throw in an Arcane shot to break Steady chains.
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Originally Posted by binky
Were you running 0/20/41 or 7/20/34? I believe the rotation you are using suffers from steady chaining less if you are hasted and utilizing 7/20/34. When 0/20/41, I throw in an Arcane shot to break Steady chains.
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Originally Posted by Nebelwerfer
I'm running a 20/41 - no DST or passive haste so for me it's more efficient and higher dps to do that rather than put the points into IAotH.
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Now that I have 4 piece and at least myself and another drummer I find myself hasted most of the time with haste pots and rapid fire. So, if you have leather workers in your group the 7/20 spec is better since you gain nothing from the imp arcane shot while hasted. I am now trying to add a bit of haste to see if I an tighten it up, I have the valestalker girdle, access to the bt bracers and will try and get the ZA back.
I don't know if the added crit and extra rapid is more dps if getting haste buffs most of the time is better or not.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
It's totaly normal to get chained steadys with non-hasted 3.0 weapons.
Personaly, I just stop hitting the macro for a second and start spamming it again after the auto flew.
With more haste you shouldn't see chains anymore.
For the record -> 211 haste is perfect, more doesn't hurt.
To run the math for facts:
FWS = BWS / [( 1 + Haste_A ) * ( 1 + Haste_B ) * ( 1 + Haste_C )]
FWS=final weapon speed
BWS=base weapon speed
Haste_A=imp. AotH (0.15) - 15% proc
Haste_B=Quiver bonus (0.15) - 15% quiver
Haste_C=Haste % bonus - (0.xxx)
Stealing from EJ-BM-Bible-Thread we get a simplified form:
B/(1+A)/(1+Q)/(1+(H/1570)) = X
B=Bow Speed
A=AotH - Proc %
Q=Quiver %
H=Haste rating
1570= 15,70 haste rating=1% haste,
[ w=p/(G*100) -> H/15,70*100]
We need 2.0 for 3:2 rotation after imp. AotH (according to Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros) using the /cast/cast ->
3.0/(1.15*1.15*(1+x/1570)) = 2.0
1/(1+x/1570) = (2.0*1.15*1.15)/3.0
1+x/1570 = 3.0/(2.0*1.15*1.15)
x = (3.0/(2.0*1.15*1.15) - 1)*1570
x = 210,7 = 211 haste needed.
More haste will smoothen the procced 3:2.
As always, feel free to correct me if I've put errors in here (just copied and modified this from my guild-forums where I'd posted this in german language, so some variables could mismatch with the explanations).
Edit:corrected some typos
Personaly, I just stop hitting the macro for a second and start spamming it again after the auto flew.
With more haste you shouldn't see chains anymore.
For the record -> 211 haste is perfect, more doesn't hurt.
To run the math for facts:
FWS = BWS / [( 1 + Haste_A ) * ( 1 + Haste_B ) * ( 1 + Haste_C )]
FWS=final weapon speed
BWS=base weapon speed
Haste_A=imp. AotH (0.15) - 15% proc
Haste_B=Quiver bonus (0.15) - 15% quiver
Haste_C=Haste % bonus - (0.xxx)
Stealing from EJ-BM-Bible-Thread we get a simplified form:
B/(1+A)/(1+Q)/(1+(H/1570)) = X
B=Bow Speed
A=AotH - Proc %
Q=Quiver %
H=Haste rating
1570= 15,70 haste rating=1% haste,
[ w=p/(G*100) -> H/15,70*100]
We need 2.0 for 3:2 rotation after imp. AotH (according to Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros) using the /cast/cast ->
3.0/(1.15*1.15*(1+x/1570)) = 2.0
1/(1+x/1570) = (2.0*1.15*1.15)/3.0
1+x/1570 = 3.0/(2.0*1.15*1.15)
x = (3.0/(2.0*1.15*1.15) - 1)*1570
x = 210,7 = 211 haste needed.
More haste will smoothen the procced 3:2.
As always, feel free to correct me if I've put errors in here (just copied and modified this from my guild-forums where I'd posted this in german language, so some variables could mismatch with the explanations).
Edit:corrected some typos
Last edited by Jintra : 05/14/08 at 7:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nebelwerfer
Stuff about steady chaining on Brutallus and macros
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A post in Shot Rotations thread. Look at the bit about autoshots squeezing through the steadyshot/GCD gap.
Autoshots squeeze through the gap between steadyshot ending and GCD ending (GCD ending means another steadyshot starting). If you take damage and pushback the first steady, the gap now no longer exists because the first steady wont finish until the GCD invoked by that steady finishes (and next steadyshot) starts, so no autoshot goes through.
Combined with the fact that you need a bit of passive haste for it to run smoothly in the first place, and you have a lot of chaining going on.
Also, Dont use a /castsequence!! /cast /cast was correct, it's just your haste and your use of the macro that was letting you down.
Thanks for the feedback - I've thrown on some more passive haste (Valestalker Girdle, Felspine and Band of Devastation) for tonight's Twins kill so we'll see what sort of difference I encounter. Still chasing a few items like the clutch of demise and the haste back from ZA, so we'll see how that affects things - ideally I want to DW both shiv of exsanguination's (when the second drops anyway) so I can keep my armor pen close to the 800 mark.
Hi everyone,
I'm currently cookie-cutter BM spec and i've been thinking of switching to SV since i now have around 670 agi unbuffed. Whats keeping me from doing so is that i'm the only regular raiding hunter and i was wondering if EW > FI in terms of dps for my party/raid. We usually have about 5-6 melee classes not including tanks in our raid. Playing around with Cheeky's spreadsheet, i'd be losing about 150 personal dps if i were to go SV aswell as FI and Imp. HM. Is it worth a shot or should i stay BM until we get another regular BM hunter?
If indeed SV is the way to go, could i get some pointers on spec, rotation/macro, itemization?
Armory for references
I'm currently cookie-cutter BM spec and i've been thinking of switching to SV since i now have around 670 agi unbuffed. Whats keeping me from doing so is that i'm the only regular raiding hunter and i was wondering if EW > FI in terms of dps for my party/raid. We usually have about 5-6 melee classes not including tanks in our raid. Playing around with Cheeky's spreadsheet, i'd be losing about 150 personal dps if i were to go SV aswell as FI and Imp. HM. Is it worth a shot or should i stay BM until we get another regular BM hunter?
If indeed SV is the way to go, could i get some pointers on spec, rotation/macro, itemization?
Armory for references
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Originally Posted by Obellix
Hi everyone,
I'm currently cookie-cutter BM spec and i've been thinking of switching to SV since i now have around 670 agi unbuffed. Whats keeping me from doing so is that i'm the only regular raiding hunter and i was wondering if EW > FI in terms of dps for my party/raid. We usually have about 5-6 melee classes not including tanks in our raid. Playing around with Cheeky's spreadsheet, i'd be losing about 150 personal dps if i were to go SV aswell as FI and Imp. HM. Is it worth a shot or should i stay BM until we get another regular BM hunter? If indeed SV is the way to go, could i get some pointers on spec, rotation/macro, itemization? Armory for references |
As far as your gear is concerned, ditch the cloak and find something with agility, the older badge cloak will do fine. That's not a great hunter cloak in general, in my opinion. You can stand to lose some hit in favor of some other stats if you take the surefooted talent (unless you have some other gear you plan to use for SV not shown on the Armory). There are a number of ways to do that, but a lot of it depends on what happens to drop for you. A necklace of the deep in place of your neck might be a good start. Also, although the socket bonuses are appealing, you should only pursue the most advantageous. In your current gear, I personally would get the chest, pants, and helmet socket bonuses, skipping the bracers and even the belt bonus (the belt provides only 3 agility and requires 2 not-totally-red gems). That would give you 3 yellow and 2 blue gems, still enough for your meta to be activated. Slot agility gems everywhere else. In general, red gems should be 8/10 agility, and blues should be 4/6 or 5/7 agi/stam. There are a couple choices for yellow gems. There was a post a few pages back about the different ways to configure your gems depending on your needs, I'm sure it's not too hard to find.
Speccing, that's a more complicated question... i'll leave it to others, but there is a lot of discussion in this thread already on exactly that subject. There have probably even been posters in a situation similar to yours who have asked and been answered, so check around.
Oh and, yes, 5-6 melee is enough to justify speccing SV if you so choose. Certainly try it out, and see how you like it
How can I improve my current DPS?
Spec: 7/20/34
I have the 4 set T6 bonus.
Gronnstalker: BP, Helm, Legs, Shoulders.
I also use the Kalc legs (Which may be listed on armory currently)
I have been trying to manually weave multi and arcane shots between the macro below.
This is the macro I am using – it is bound to a key on my G15:
MACRO 1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
MACRO 2:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
WWS
We use drum rotations on Brutallus but I am not always in the ideal hunter group config.
Generally speaking I sit around 1060-1200 AGI raid buffed depending on group makeup.
I use major agi pot, righteous weapon coating, warp burger and agility v scroll when available.
I am pushing around 1200-1400 DPS on this fight, my ping was around 1200-1600 (which is abnormal) last night but my DPS is comparable to this when I have lower ping. Around 230.
What can I to do to get my DPS on par with similar spec/geard/surv hunters in the 1600-1800 ranges?
Also, the hit gems in my gloves were upgraded to +10 agi today - the armory won't reflect that change yet.
Spec: 7/20/34
I have the 4 set T6 bonus.
Gronnstalker: BP, Helm, Legs, Shoulders.
I also use the Kalc legs (Which may be listed on armory currently)
I have been trying to manually weave multi and arcane shots between the macro below.
This is the macro I am using – it is bound to a key on my G15:
MACRO 1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
MACRO 2:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
WWS
We use drum rotations on Brutallus but I am not always in the ideal hunter group config.
Generally speaking I sit around 1060-1200 AGI raid buffed depending on group makeup.
I use major agi pot, righteous weapon coating, warp burger and agility v scroll when available.
I am pushing around 1200-1400 DPS on this fight, my ping was around 1200-1600 (which is abnormal) last night but my DPS is comparable to this when I have lower ping. Around 230.
What can I to do to get my DPS on par with similar spec/geard/surv hunters in the 1600-1800 ranges?
Also, the hit gems in my gloves were upgraded to +10 agi today - the armory won't reflect that change yet.
I really think the best results with that spec and macro are going to come from sticking to the macro. The added SS dmg from the T6 bonus makes regular inclusion of AS and Multi less desirable. Also, pet dmg numbers look a little off. A WS should be getting more than 5 KCs in a 6.5 min fight. Again, sticking to the macro will ensure it is used as often as it is up. The bigger issue is not having LB added to the macro. LB should be hitting more than 111 times in this long of a fight.
Don't forget, soaking Slashes is gonna make your dps suffer in this fight; so be sure to take that into consideration.
Don't forget, soaking Slashes is gonna make your dps suffer in this fight; so be sure to take that into consideration.
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Originally Posted by binky
The bigger issue is not having LB added to the macro. LB should be hitting more than 111 times in this long of a fight.
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Also our shaman is complaining about the WS eating his charges, so I may not be bringing him back if the guild has a say in it.
Just curious - are you using a similar macro? I notice your gear and spec are the same - what kind of results are you seeing in the group variations?
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Yes - I have been trying different variations of this macro - and I neglected to mention it.
Also our shaman is complaining about the WS eating his charges, so I may not be bringing him back if the guild has a say in it. Just curious - are you using a similar macro? I notice your gear and spec are the same - what kind of results are you seeing in the group variations? |
I'm a little bit confused. I'm in a guild that has Archimonde down, working on Bloodboil, and have been Survival pretty much since we started raiding.
Armory is down as I write this, but I have gone through a name change and am Vox of <Eventually> on Spirestone, if anyone wants to check that out.
My issue is with the need for a 3:2 rotation on the first place. I've been manually weaving the 1.5:1 rotation for a very long time, and with a 3.0 bow it is tight as a drum, I'm putting out up to 1500 dps while keeping up a 1200 agi EW buff. I don't have access to a DST or a full drum squad, but even with that and the appropriate haste gear, I don't understand why the 3:2 rotation is better, since it is effectively prioritizing steadies over the instant specials that do more damage.
Is this entirely a product of the 4/8 T6 set bonus? Should I just be staying with my air-tight rotation that includes the higher dps arcanes and multis until I find myself with 4 Gronnbits?
Armory is down as I write this, but I have gone through a name change and am Vox of <Eventually> on Spirestone, if anyone wants to check that out.
My issue is with the need for a 3:2 rotation on the first place. I've been manually weaving the 1.5:1 rotation for a very long time, and with a 3.0 bow it is tight as a drum, I'm putting out up to 1500 dps while keeping up a 1200 agi EW buff. I don't have access to a DST or a full drum squad, but even with that and the appropriate haste gear, I don't understand why the 3:2 rotation is better, since it is effectively prioritizing steadies over the instant specials that do more damage.
Is this entirely a product of the 4/8 T6 set bonus? Should I just be staying with my air-tight rotation that includes the higher dps arcanes and multis until I find myself with 4 Gronnbits?
*nevermind*
Last edited by PreTXT : Yesterday at 5:49 AM.
I don't like to be the bad guy but I have to quote Kaubel for some basic rules in this thread:
Those "please analyse me" posts are flooding this thread right now. Please let's get back to "Class mechanics" again.
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"Teach me how to play!" These forums are unique in several ways, one of which is that it's a breeding ground for in-depth discussions regarding the high end of WoW. With this in mind, people need to understand that this makes it the wrong place to ask for basic and/or personalized advice. We welcome all visitors, and encourage each of you to fully participate in whatever thread/topic/discussion you find pertinent and interesting, but please don't post asking people to do things such as: - evaluate your WWS (unless the thread specifically calls for it) - compare weapons, enchantments or armor pieces - evaluate specs - comment on your group's class composition - look at your gear (this includes linking to the WoW armory WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE IN YOUR PROFILE) - etc..... The best way to learn is to do your own research - search and read. And read. And read. Yes, we know that some of the threads are daunting, but that's a sign that it contains LOTS of information and that there's a VERY good chance your question has been answered already. And consider that if every person asked for tailored advice, discussions would get interrupted and veered off-topic, making those valuable threads a shitty clutter of "HAY IM NEW HALP PLZ" posts. With that said, be warned that anyone choosing to ignore any of this will receive an infraction. Thanks. |
Thanks Kutak. I'll try it out. Gear wise i don't have much gear in the bank to switch around to lower my hit rating and i'm gathering badges for the cloak and also getting that neck piece crafted. Since i'm a draeni and i'm already over my hit cap i'll skip Surefooted talent until i can lower it a bit going somewehere along the lines of this :
Spec
We still haven't down Kael or Lady V yet but we are starting in t6 content having downed one boss in MH and BT so i'll have more gear available to me soon. My personnal dps as BM is pretty good i think, I'm usually at the top spot or close to it depending on encounters. So i guess if i go SV i'm just gonna bring a little competition at the top . I'll definitly try it out!
Spec
We still haven't down Kael or Lady V yet but we are starting in t6 content having downed one boss in MH and BT so i'll have more gear available to me soon. My personnal dps as BM is pretty good i think, I'm usually at the top spot or close to it depending on encounters. So i guess if i go SV i'm just gonna bring a little competition at the top . I'll definitly try it out!
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Originally Posted by bodilly
I'm a little bit confused. I'm in a guild that has Archimonde down, working on Bloodboil, and have been Survival pretty much since we started raiding.
Armory is down as I write this, but I have gone through a name change and am Vox of <Eventually> on Spirestone, if anyone wants to check that out. My issue is with the need for a 3:2 rotation on the first place. I've been manually weaving the 1.5:1 rotation for a very long time, and with a 3.0 bow it is tight as a drum, I'm putting out up to 1500 dps while keeping up a 1200 agi EW buff. I don't have access to a DST or a full drum squad, but even with that and the appropriate haste gear, I don't understand why the 3:2 rotation is better, since it is effectively prioritizing steadies over the instant specials that do more damage. Is this entirely a product of the 4/8 T6 set bonus? Should I just be staying with my air-tight rotation that includes the higher dps arcanes and multis until I find myself with 4 Gronnbits? |
1) haste - as you get into a situation where you are consistently hasted the rotation can take advantage of it scaling naturally from something like 2:1 to 3:2 to 1:1 based on level of haste. This is also when hunters move from 0/20/41 or whatever to 7/20/34. Drums + IAotH + around 80 passive haste and a 3.0 speed weapon produces good results. Add in DST or Haaste Pots or Bloodlust or Rapid Fire and it does even better.
2) 4 piece - at 4 piece T6 steady starts doing a good amount of dmg. At this point you will do as good or better dmg on a per shot basis and have vastly better mana efficiency than using arcane or multi.
3) pre-4 piece - there is still a mana efficiency play here. Steady does close to the same dmg as your arcane or multi pre 4-piece and has a much lower mana cost. There is a period in a guilds boss killing lifecycle where fights are on farm but they take a long time to get through. Steady spam with AotH is superiorr to 1:1.5 with Viper on.
If mana is not an issue, you dont have 4 piece t6 and you dont have much haste most of the time (no dst, no drummers, maybe you have to use mana pots instead of haste pots to keeep mana up, etc) then the ideal is your 1:1.5 rotation switching to steady spam when you are in a reasonably hasted situation.
I was thinking about the 7/20/34 spec yesterday, because i wanted a way to possibly get 3/3 TOTH. I mean, our current spec is quite mana taxing, and personally, if there is no JoW on Brutallus (to use him as an example) i will run out of mana if i dont chug a fel mana potion. Problem is, when i drink a mana potion, i cant really drink a haste potion. If JoW is up, then i can simply stick to Haste potions and keep my DPS up nicely.
So i was thinking, if i were to take the points from Focused Fire (and one of the fillers in survival) and get 3/3 TOTH, it would eliminate the mana dependency, or at least help it. In Sunwell, we have an amazing amount of crit, and since many of our best upgrades are leather items without int, then it would benefit us if we can rely more on regen than the actual mana pool. For me on Brutallus, such a change wouldn't mean anything since i dont use (fel) mana potions at all, but others have to because of their group setup, and it would help them where they could use another haste potion instead of a mana potion.
I set out to try and calculate how much damage would be lost if you didn't have focused fire. I mean, we're loosing 2% of our own DPS, and the pet loses 20% crit on Kill Command (and from all of the WWS'es ive seen my pet crits about 20% with KC, which leads me to belive that KC has 0% base crit or that Ares is just really unlucky).
To aid me, and to confuse me, Ondskaben tipped in with his own calculations. And while we disagree about the final result, here is what we got:
I say that Focused Fire is about ***REMOVED - SEE EDIT BELOW***
Ondskaben sais that it is about 2.3% of our total DPS.
Im not going to post my calculations, cause i didnt write half of them down, and theres a high chance that at least i have miscalculated something. If you are better at math than me, then by all means go for it.
In any case, if you had 1850 DPS on Brut, then its either a DPS loss of about 36 or 72.
In my case, speccing for TOTH would gimp my damage a bit on Brutallus, since i dont use fel mana potions on him. But on other fights, where i am forced to take a mana potion or switch to viper to regen, i can increase my DPS because i can use another haste potion instead of focusing on mana regen.
Also, while using TOTH i could perhaps give up on a mana oil on my weapon and instead use righteous weapon coating (which gives an averege AP of 75) because i get my regen elsewhere. TOTH with 45%+ crit will be an amazing mana regen.
It all boils down to this: Can we regain the damage we lose from saying goodbye to focused fire, by using another haste potion and AP weapon coating? Think of the long run, when raid DPS is easely obtained on Brutallus, and when fights like Twins, Muru and possible Kil'Jaeden forces you to use fel mana potions instead of haste potions. On these fights, TOTH can help loads, but is the damage loss within an acceptable range?
Am i making any sense? :P
EDIT: I just recalculated, and now i got to the same conclution as Ondskaben, that FF is 2,3% of our total DPS.
So i was thinking, if i were to take the points from Focused Fire (and one of the fillers in survival) and get 3/3 TOTH, it would eliminate the mana dependency, or at least help it. In Sunwell, we have an amazing amount of crit, and since many of our best upgrades are leather items without int, then it would benefit us if we can rely more on regen than the actual mana pool. For me on Brutallus, such a change wouldn't mean anything since i dont use (fel) mana potions at all, but others have to because of their group setup, and it would help them where they could use another haste potion instead of a mana potion.
I set out to try and calculate how much damage would be lost if you didn't have focused fire. I mean, we're loosing 2% of our own DPS, and the pet loses 20% crit on Kill Command (and from all of the WWS'es ive seen my pet crits about 20% with KC, which leads me to belive that KC has 0% base crit or that Ares is just really unlucky).
To aid me, and to confuse me, Ondskaben tipped in with his own calculations. And while we disagree about the final result, here is what we got:
I say that Focused Fire is about ***REMOVED - SEE EDIT BELOW***
Ondskaben sais that it is about 2.3% of our total DPS.
Im not going to post my calculations, cause i didnt write half of them down, and theres a high chance that at least i have miscalculated something. If you are better at math than me, then by all means go for it.
In any case, if you had 1850 DPS on Brut, then its either a DPS loss of about 36 or 72.
In my case, speccing for TOTH would gimp my damage a bit on Brutallus, since i dont use fel mana potions on him. But on other fights, where i am forced to take a mana potion or switch to viper to regen, i can increase my DPS because i can use another haste potion instead of focusing on mana regen.
Also, while using TOTH i could perhaps give up on a mana oil on my weapon and instead use righteous weapon coating (which gives an averege AP of 75) because i get my regen elsewhere. TOTH with 45%+ crit will be an amazing mana regen.
It all boils down to this: Can we regain the damage we lose from saying goodbye to focused fire, by using another haste potion and AP weapon coating? Think of the long run, when raid DPS is easely obtained on Brutallus, and when fights like Twins, Muru and possible Kil'Jaeden forces you to use fel mana potions instead of haste potions. On these fights, TOTH can help loads, but is the damage loss within an acceptable range?
Am i making any sense? :P
EDIT: I just recalculated, and now i got to the same conclution as Ondskaben, that FF is 2,3% of our total DPS.
Last edited by Aym : Yesterday at 9:21 AM.
So last night we had our first Brutallus kill, I did 1886 dps with a good group but a screwy drum rotation. I couldn't help but wonder though, could I have broken 1900 or even higher if I used my consumables more efficiently?
The main question I have is, with generally 3-400 ms, is there any amount of haste where it no longer makes sense to stack more on at the same time?
In other words, obviously I would like to have a reasonably high amount of haste going when I use [Berserker's Call], but is there any point it's too much? Or does it actually just make sense to make sure it's popped with drums/rapid fire/haste pot all at the same time?
I've been generally using my AP trinket alongside drums, but saving the haste pot for elsewhere, mostly for fear of having excessively high threat with EVERYTHING all at once. If it's more efficient to do it that way I could try waiting a little while into the fight and doing it immediately after a FD.
I raid with 81 passive haste and 7/20/34 if that makes a difference, and thanks for any input, would love to break that 2k mark soon.
The main question I have is, with generally 3-400 ms, is there any amount of haste where it no longer makes sense to stack more on at the same time?
In other words, obviously I would like to have a reasonably high amount of haste going when I use [Berserker's Call], but is there any point it's too much? Or does it actually just make sense to make sure it's popped with drums/rapid fire/haste pot all at the same time?
I've been generally using my AP trinket alongside drums, but saving the haste pot for elsewhere, mostly for fear of having excessively high threat with EVERYTHING all at once. If it's more efficient to do it that way I could try waiting a little while into the fight and doing it immediately after a FD.
I raid with 81 passive haste and 7/20/34 if that makes a difference, and thanks for any input, would love to break that 2k mark soon.
On Brut you are typically in one of two situations -
1) You have JoW or a Shadow Priest and you chug haste pots
2) You dont and you chug mana pots
I dont think going from 1/1 TotH to 3/3 TotH is going to be make or break here on that specific fight.
As for the DPS benfit of 2/2 FF, since 20% crit on kill command is not even remotely cost to 2% of my dps, I cant see the talent being worth 4%+. 2.3% seems much more reasonable.
1) You have JoW or a Shadow Priest and you chug haste pots
2) You dont and you chug mana pots
I dont think going from 1/1 TotH to 3/3 TotH is going to be make or break here on that specific fight.
As for the DPS benfit of 2/2 FF, since 20% crit on kill command is not even remotely cost to 2% of my dps, I cant see the talent being worth 4%+. 2.3% seems much more reasonable.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
On Brut you are typically in one of two situations -
1) You have JoW or a Shadow Priest and you chug haste pots 2) You dont and you chug mana pots I dont think going from 1/1 TotH to 3/3 TotH is going to be make or break here on that specific fight. As for the DPS benfit of 2/2 FF, since 20% crit on kill command is not even remotely cost to 2% of my dps, I cant see the talent being worth 4%+. 2.3% seems much more reasonable. |
So, 2/2 FF equates to 2.3 dps per 100.
1600 dps without ff, 1636.8 dps with ff
1700 dps without ff, 1739.1 dps with ff
1800 dps without ff, 1841.4 dps with ff
1900 dps without ff, 1943.7 dps with ff
2000 dps whtout ff, 2046.0 dps with ff
Now the question is, will that extra haste pot make up for the loss of those 2.3 dps per 100 dps over the course of a 6 minutes brutallus. I'm guessing probably not. Without making any lengthy calculations about it i seem to recall (from observing post encounter recount graphs from the fight) peaking at 2000-2200dps when im hasted. But when im non hasted im around 1300-1500 (i think). So that would probably mean a dps increase around 600ish under haste effect dropping from 2:1 to 3:2.
Haste effect is 15 seconds, Brutallus enrage is 360 seconds. That would make the benefit of each haste potion over the course of 6 minutes be something like (15/360)*600 = 25dps.
It might be way off though, i'm a bit tired.
Edit:
I see i misread QuiggyB as well. I really must be tired...
Last edited by Ondskaben : Yesterday at 10:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
On Brut you are typically in one of two situations -
1) You have JoW or a Shadow Priest and you chug haste pots 2) You dont and you chug mana pots I dont think going from 1/1 TotH to 3/3 TotH is going to be make or break here on that specific fight. As for the DPS benfit of 2/2 FF, since 20% crit on kill command is not even remotely cost to 2% of my dps, I cant see the talent being worth 4%+. 2.3% seems much more reasonable. |
55mp5 is 3960 more mana on Brutallus which is more than a fel mana potion, meaning you will definately be able to take another haste potion instead of that fel mana potion (unless you're using alchemist trinket).
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Yes - I have been trying different variations of this macro - and I neglected to mention it.
Also our shaman is complaining about the WS eating his charges, so I may not be bringing him back if the guild has a say in it. Just curious - are you using a similar macro? I notice your gear and spec are the same - what kind of results are you seeing in the group variations? |
I'm going to assume that you use the Ashtounge Trinket over the pvp one, but for being specced 7/20/34 unless you have all 5 people with drums...you are lacking haste and I'd assume going 0/20/41 would end up better for you. How those double glaives treating Gem btw?
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Also our shaman is complaining about the WS eating his charges, so I may not be bringing him back if the guild has a say in it.
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Yes - I have been trying different variations of this macro...
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/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !autoshot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] BT3Button72
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
WWS
Although not a good party make up, the number of LBs and KCs are what I would expect to see when used optimally. Also the ratio of AS to SS is pretty close to 3:2, which is what we are looking for in a hasted SV spec.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I'm going to assume that you use the Ashtounge Trinket over the pvp one, but for being specced 7/20/34 unless you have all 5 people with drums...you are lacking haste and I'd assume going 0/20/41 would end up better for you.
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| How those double glaives treating Gem btw? |
0/20/41 - Seeding MT and readiness? I remember reading something comparing the actual percentages and MT seamd pretty low - at this point I'm all about raising my output so I can test it today.
Thanks again for the advice.
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Originally Posted by Joheltro
This caught my eye. Could someone explain it, dont have that much insight into shamans.
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[Hunter/Shaman] Wind Serpents with DPS Shammies
Hey guys, Just a question.
For survival should I let pet learn Cobra relfexes or not really? with Spec 7/20/34
And with 4 set peaces of Tier6 should we insert arcane or not on the rotation? cause of the hidden cd
For survival should I let pet learn Cobra relfexes or not really? with Spec 7/20/34
And with 4 set peaces of Tier6 should we insert arcane or not on the rotation? cause of the hidden cd
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Originally Posted by memnauk
0/20/41 - Seeding MT and readiness? I remember reading something comparing the actual percentages and MT seamd pretty low - at this point I'm all about raising my output so I can test it today.
Thanks again for the advice. |
Readiness i miss for double rapid fires. Im dreaming of the day when someone (cause i cant) finds the magical number of haste that allows me to spec back to 20/41 for a gain.
I think it was 80ish haste for a 3.0 weapon. I know I used about 50 for the badge xbow and did well. Apologies for not saving WWS parses to show you exact, but I also have DST, which is love for the 7/20/34.
I'm of the same mind as Aym when it comes to Readiness atleast. As SV can have threat spikes (from crits) double md/FD is nothing to sneeze at. Of course, ideally you won't need those skills but how often do fights go ideally.
Aym; Actually I think the BEST part of 7/20/34 is Focus fire. last night on Illidan, I realized just how much 2% is.
Desp cried and quit. I miss him so much. He needs to return for his glaive.
I'm of the same mind as Aym when it comes to Readiness atleast. As SV can have threat spikes (from crits) double md/FD is nothing to sneeze at. Of course, ideally you won't need those skills but how often do fights go ideally.
Aym; Actually I think the BEST part of 7/20/34 is Focus fire. last night on Illidan, I realized just how much 2% is.
Desp cried and quit. I miss him so much. He needs to return for his glaive.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
My Maelstromers are killing me... KILLING ME!!!
The point of IAotH is to combine it with item based haste. That way, when it procs, you get to as near a 3:2 rotation as possible. It is the same when using haste pots, DST proc (if you have it), drums, and Rapid Fire. If you don't have the haste boost through the items, your rotation is going to be choppy and you'll end up clipping more autos than you'd originally plan. With just the Felspine, you're going to need drums full time or you're not going to get as much benefit out of it as you should. With your gear, you'd be much better off with a 0/20/41 spec and using double Rapid Fires to boost your damage. Until you're hoving around 100ish permanent haste rating (Felspine, neck or ring, and Fiends), you're close but not close enough.
It helps that you don't try and weave manual shots with that spec. Again, the point of that spec is to utilize item haste with haste pots, DST, Rapid Fire, and Blood Lust and to spam the Hell out of Steady Shot while utilizing the 4 piece T6 bonus. As you're trying to maintain a 1:1.5 rotation with haste options, you're chopping your damage and taking yourself out of the bonus of your gear.
Again, with the 7/20/34 or 5/20/36 specs, your sole damage option is based on Steady Shot and Auto Shot. You can toss in the random arcane or multi when you're shifting but the point is to utilize Haste Weaving to force as many Steady Shots, with the +10% damage bonus, between Auto Shots. You shouldn't be clipping anything, or as little as possible, until a major haste benefit kicks in.
The point of IAotH is to combine it with item based haste. That way, when it procs, you get to as near a 3:2 rotation as possible. It is the same when using haste pots, DST proc (if you have it), drums, and Rapid Fire. If you don't have the haste boost through the items, your rotation is going to be choppy and you'll end up clipping more autos than you'd originally plan. With just the Felspine, you're going to need drums full time or you're not going to get as much benefit out of it as you should. With your gear, you'd be much better off with a 0/20/41 spec and using double Rapid Fires to boost your damage. Until you're hoving around 100ish permanent haste rating (Felspine, neck or ring, and Fiends), you're close but not close enough.
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Originally Posted by memnauk
How can I improve my current DPS?
Spec: 7/20/34 I have the 4 set T6 bonus. Gronnstalker: BP, Helm, Legs, Shoulders. I also use the Kalc legs (Which may be listed on armory currently) I have been trying to manually weave multi and arcane shots between the macro below. This is the macro I am using – it is bound to a key on my G15: |
Again, with the 7/20/34 or 5/20/36 specs, your sole damage option is based on Steady Shot and Auto Shot. You can toss in the random arcane or multi when you're shifting but the point is to utilize Haste Weaving to force as many Steady Shots, with the +10% damage bonus, between Auto Shots. You shouldn't be clipping anything, or as little as possible, until a major haste benefit kicks in.
Last edited by Bovii : 05/16/08 at 4:09 PM.
5/20/36? You would seriously get 3/3 TotH instead of 2/2 Focused Fire?
Hey, I'm sorry if this has already been said, but is anyone working on hunter articles for the Think Tank? I'm looking for a good Survival article to help out a hunter in my guild,
I haven't been able to find any threads with a good breakdown of Gear/Spec/Rotation/ect in one post for people just starting out. They all seem to be hunters who know the spec/class fairly well and assume other readers do as well.
Thanks for any help.
I haven't been able to find any threads with a good breakdown of Gear/Spec/Rotation/ect in one post for people just starting out. They all seem to be hunters who know the spec/class fairly well and assume other readers do as well.
Thanks for any help.
Hell no, I wouldn't. I don't mind hitting a Fel Mana Pot when necessary. And, outside of fights when Maliix dies for reasons that nobody understands, it really isn't even a problem. Some people swear by it though. Having been SV for longer than I can remember, while valuable for longevity, I always found myself critting more often on Steady Shot and Auto Shot which resulted in too little mana being returned. So I don't mind not having it. If the 31 point SV talent was worth a damn, I'd probably go 0/3 ToTH. Regardless, I switch out to the BBotB when mana gets tight and wait for the cool down if I'm getting pinched.
As for a good SV article, quite a few SV newbies look at Alumatine's blog for info: Night Drifter - Alu’s Corner. It pretty much sums up what you need to know if you're just looking at it as it compiles all of the necessary information.
PS> Do we have the Alchemy table setup yet? I see that you replaced a lot of your gems, Wun, so I'm hoping so. My computer went up in a puff of smoke, literally, the other weekend and I haven't gotten it back from the shop. I've got 200+ badges just waiting.
As for a good SV article, quite a few SV newbies look at Alumatine's blog for info: Night Drifter - Alu’s Corner. It pretty much sums up what you need to know if you're just looking at it as it compiles all of the necessary information.
PS> Do we have the Alchemy table setup yet? I see that you replaced a lot of your gems, Wun, so I'm hoping so. My computer went up in a puff of smoke, literally, the other weekend and I haven't gotten it back from the shop. I've got 200+ badges just waiting.
Bovii & Wunlastri
Your combined responses are the most useful replies I've had, I appreciate you taking the time to guide me through my frustrations. I'll work on bumping haste, until then I'll drop the BM spec points and work with what I have.
Cheers~
Your combined responses are the most useful replies I've had, I appreciate you taking the time to guide me through my frustrations. I'll work on bumping haste, until then I'll drop the BM spec points and work with what I have.
Cheers~
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Just looking for a little advice here
WWS
Did 1946 without a shaman but I did get a heroism
Had 4 people with drums in the group. Makeup was Prot tank/BM Hunter/Me/Rog/Feral Druid
Am I in a good place with that strange group or should I be doing more
Armory
Any and all advice will be appreciated
EDIT: I did go oom at about 20-10% and had to switch to viper but I don't remember exactly when hehe
EDIT 2: Using dual macro setup no g15
WWS
Did 1946 without a shaman but I did get a heroism
Had 4 people with drums in the group. Makeup was Prot tank/BM Hunter/Me/Rog/Feral Druid
Am I in a good place with that strange group or should I be doing more
Armory
Any and all advice will be appreciated
EDIT: I did go oom at about 20-10% and had to switch to viper but I don't remember exactly when hehe
EDIT 2: Using dual macro setup no g15
Last edited by Cathzilla : 05/16/08 at 5:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Also our shaman is complaining about the WS eating his charges, so I may not be bringing him back if the guild has a say in it.
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Might change if you run with an elemental shaman, but the enh shammy can live without it for sure.
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Originally Posted by Bovii
My Maelstromers are killing me... KILLING ME!!!
The point of IAotH is to combine it with item based haste. That way, when it procs, you get to as near a 3:2 rotation as possible. It is the same when using haste pots, DST proc (if you have it), drums, and Rapid Fire. If you don't have the haste boost through the items, your rotation is going to be choppy and you'll end up clipping more autos than you'd originally plan. With just the Felspine, you're going to need drums full time or you're not going to get as much benefit out of it as you should. With your gear, you'd be much better off with a 0/20/41 spec and using double Rapid Fires to boost your damage. Until you're hoving around 100ish permanent haste rating (Felspine, neck or ring, and Fiends), you're close but not close enough. |
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
5/20/36? You would seriously get 3/3 TotH instead of 2/2 Focused Fire?
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Again, we've thought down this road because it could ease up some mana problems. One of the arguments i posted for this is that we are going to aim for a lot of leather gear (gloves, as an example) that doesn't have int, which will shrink our mana pool. We are then more reliant on regen (oils, mageblood, mana totem, JoW and potions) to keep up our mana with a smaller buffer than before. If this change could mean that we could use AP oils instead, that we wasnt dependant on being with a shaman and so on, then this could ease up a major headache for a lot of us, and potentionally increase our DPS. Stop looking at just Brutallus, and think that you will forever kill Brutallus with the same gear that you have now. Just by the gear i dream myself to sleep with, ill be dropping to 175-200 int instead of the 317 unbuffed i have now, which is a substancial loss.
Im not saying im right. I havent even changed the spec to try it out yet, because im still thinking about this. But you cannot just wave it off with one flicker of thought before really considering what it could mean, and you surely wont deter me before you show me some math to prove me wrong. By all means, please do. I want to be told that im wrong here, but i have a strong feeling that i might actually be on to something. It may not be much, but it could still be a huge factor later in Sunwell.
What are everyones thoughts on the new Silver Naaur trinket from M'uru? The passive haste seems like it will be a good fit if you are running dual 1hs but I am unsure of how the proc will scale. If it is a 1ppm then the average AP should be pretty solid.
Aym your ideas intrigue me. Would you be using efficiency or IHM in your spec?
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Originally Posted by memnauk
Bovii & Wunlastri
Your combined responses are the most useful replies I've had, I appreciate you taking the time to guide me through my frustrations. I'll work on bumping haste, until then I'll drop the BM spec points and work with what I have. Cheers~ |
I did have a decent group setup for it altough I didnt get any heroisms - Feral, Prot, Enhancement, Resto Druid, Me.
All I would say is keep trying and you will get there, took me some weeks to figure out how it worked out best for me.
Last edited by Justwait : Yesterday at 7:14 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Always train Cobra Reflexes, no matter what spec or build. It will always be an increase in dps.
And no, don't use arcane shot if you are the "7/20/34 passive haste and DST with /cast/cast macro" build. |
When I use arcane shot, I can see an increase in DPS. I got 53 passive haste but no DST.
The following Rotation just works fine:
auto - steady - arcane - auto - steady - auto - steady
When I am under haste proccs like quick shots or when rapid fire is up I just do the auto - steady thing.
So why is the arcane shot bad on the 7/20/34 specc? Is ist due to mana problems or what ?
Last edited by Arkedos : 05/19/08 at 5:00 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Talents, Trinkets and Haste
OK, nearly 80 pages of posts, spent quite a long time reading here and elsewhere. So much controversy, emo and contradiction! Ah, hunter theorycrafting, dont you just love it!
My question is really about (and i guess im wanting someone to tell me straight) talent tweaking and where i'm best spending those extra few points, and also about haste and trinkets. So lets start with talents:
1) I'm currently specced with 5/5 iAS. I'm running SSC and TK regularly. There's a lot of trash with sheeping, so i'm using a 1:1.5 macro without multi (no KC - sub question is that good?), and switching to a 1:1.5 macro with multi for boss mobs and when there's no sheep about. I'm keeping 5 points in iHM whatever. (all this on advice from forums), but now i'm seeing plenty of people with those 5 points in iAS spent in MT instead (and since theyve gone there using a point in readiness). What's the current consensus? (since my mana had been good with 3/3 TofH, i was even considering dropping those 2/5 in efficiency and putting them in barrage).
2) Haste. Plenty of talk of spending 2 points in Rapid Killing. But I also read that haste for SV is bad, so i didnt bother and havent been using RK at all. But now further reading people are saying use RK and readiness where possible. And if thats the case, well i have [Dragonspine Trophy] from my BM days in the bank, should i have that equipped? I currently have [Berserker's Call] & [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Bloodlust Brooch] (crit vs AP??). Should i be hasting where possible and then switching to 1:1 under haste?
Thanks for any comments.
Here's my macros:
1:1.5 (delete multi for my with sheep macro)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=2.57 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
1:1 (ok, 3:2 but 1:1 under haste right?)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
My question is really about (and i guess im wanting someone to tell me straight) talent tweaking and where i'm best spending those extra few points, and also about haste and trinkets. So lets start with talents:
1) I'm currently specced with 5/5 iAS. I'm running SSC and TK regularly. There's a lot of trash with sheeping, so i'm using a 1:1.5 macro without multi (no KC - sub question is that good?), and switching to a 1:1.5 macro with multi for boss mobs and when there's no sheep about. I'm keeping 5 points in iHM whatever. (all this on advice from forums), but now i'm seeing plenty of people with those 5 points in iAS spent in MT instead (and since theyve gone there using a point in readiness). What's the current consensus? (since my mana had been good with 3/3 TofH, i was even considering dropping those 2/5 in efficiency and putting them in barrage).
2) Haste. Plenty of talk of spending 2 points in Rapid Killing. But I also read that haste for SV is bad, so i didnt bother and havent been using RK at all. But now further reading people are saying use RK and readiness where possible. And if thats the case, well i have [Dragonspine Trophy] from my BM days in the bank, should i have that equipped? I currently have [Berserker's Call] & [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Bloodlust Brooch] (crit vs AP??). Should i be hasting where possible and then switching to 1:1 under haste?
Thanks for any comments.
Here's my macros:
1:1.5 (delete multi for my with sheep macro)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=2.57 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
1:1 (ok, 3:2 but 1:1 under haste right?)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Last edited by Boovo : 05/19/08 at 10:48 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Aym
Was this post aimed at me? When i switched from a mere 1,5:1 rotation (using arcane and multi) to the macro described earlier, i went form 1500 DPS to 1850 without even having a single piece of passive haste on me. Do you mean to say that i would get more out of the macro if i was using a 20/41 build until i get some 100 passive haste?
Yes, that was what i was speculating. You only read that line though, and arent responding to the rest im saying. You need to look beound a mere Brutallus kill and consider the spec as a whole. And if you think my idea is wrong, then show me some calculations and give me some arguments so i can change my mind. Ondskaben and I sat through the day and made the calculations, and from we could gather, the difference between 7/20/34 with a fel mana potion and 5/20/36 with a haste potion is about 11 DPS loss on the later. Thats Brutallus though. On other fights you would have to chuck more fel mana potions, but with TOTH you could reduce this, perhaps even not use any at all, meaning you could use one or more haste potions in said fight. Again, we've thought down this road because it could ease up some mana problems. One of the arguments i posted for this is that we are going to aim for a lot of leather gear (gloves, as an example) that doesn't have int, which will shrink our mana pool. We are then more reliant on regen (oils, mageblood, mana totem, JoW and potions) to keep up our mana with a smaller buffer than before. If this change could mean that we could use AP oils instead, that we wasnt dependant on being with a shaman and so on, then this could ease up a major headache for a lot of us, and potentionally increase our DPS. Stop looking at just Brutallus, and think that you will forever kill Brutallus with the same gear that you have now. Just by the gear i dream myself to sleep with, ill be dropping to 175-200 int instead of the 317 unbuffed i have now, which is a substancial loss. Im not saying im right. I havent even changed the spec to try it out yet, because im still thinking about this. But you cannot just wave it off with one flicker of thought before really considering what it could mean, and you surely wont deter me before you show me some math to prove me wrong. By all means, please do. I want to be told that im wrong here, but i have a strong feeling that i might actually be on to something. It may not be much, but it could still be a huge factor later in Sunwell. |
First, my comments about haste, Aym, was more directed at making the macro more fluid. You can run a 2:1 macro rotation without any haste what so ever. But, over the duration of a fight, you will end up clipping Auto Shots. It doesn't have anything to do with the macro, as some have speculated (but that is a different point caused by Kill Command), but has everything to do with the timing of your shots. Personally, I've NEVER been a fan of the 1:1.5 rotation. I despise Arcane Shot with a passion and Multi-Shot never lives up to its potential unless there are multiple targets in your attack zone. THOUGH, I will say that I've given some thought to a modified 2:1 rotation that substitutes a Steady Shot with a Multi-Shot... haven't tried it out but I'm wondering if it wouldn't offer more DPS over the same period of time while offering less of a pushback on Auto Shots. BUT, I digress. The whole point of adding haste for the 5/20/36 or 7/20/34 specs is to make the rotation more fluid. While 80 haste rating is seen as a good spot, especially as it can be achieved with a Felspine and one other piece of gear, pushing 100+ is really the better option for the 3.0 speed weapon.
Second, as for my comments on the 5/20/36 - 7/20/34 vs 0/20/41 specs, I've always felt that you could do mor DPS on shorter fights with the pure SV spec, versus the hybrid, while having little to no item haste. This is even more apparent when you're in a group setting that doesn't offer a Blood Lust or Heroism. And if you add in the lack of a DST, the hybrid spec really starts to lose its power. Again, the powe of the hybrid spec comes from haste stacking. If you don't have anything to stack, you're not really gaining anything over the pure SV spec. And while Master Tactician lacks a lot of true power, mostly because it procs too little, lasts too little, and pushing 50-60% haste offers little, its impact is greater in conjunction with other SV talents than IaotH simply because 15% haste, alone, isn't going to do anything to your rotation to change it to increase your DPS potential. Two Rapid Fires in sequence followed by a haste pot, though, is a huge boost.
In my mind, you have to look at Thrill of the Hunt, and Efficiency for that matter, as stand alone talents. Let's ignore DPS, time, armor pen, and everything else for a second and focus in solely on your raid composition and your overall longevity. For me, my raid ALWAYS has a Ret Paladin so Judgement of Wisdom is a given. But, I've had moments, most notibly on Illidan in phase 1, where JoW isn't up. As I'm currently specced BM, I can definitely feel the impact of no JoW and no TotH. My regen buff and Efficiency is all that I have available which means that I'm blowing through 30-50% of my 7k+ mana pool when Illy hits 65% for phase 2. On the other hand, on fights like council where my Ret Pally isn't dozing off at the keyboard and JoW is up full fight, I never drop below 50% mana (unless my pet gets punted cause I wasn't paying attention and I need to bring it back up... Imp Revive Pet is still a mana killer). SO, again, all of this comes down to what you have on hand to mitigate mana usage and what you're willing to sacrafice to maintain your DPS over a long period of time.
One last comment that I will make is this: Haste is a good thing. But balancing haste and armor pen is the best option, bar none, for the SV Hunter. I've been tinkering with haste setups for the SV spec for months and everything that I've always seen is that armor pen cannot be ignored. BM Hunters have it easy in the sense that they have 10 talent points spent directly on haste. Because of this, they can load up on Armor Penetration, though TOO MANY do not (and this pisses me off more than anything, but whatever) and just boost their DPS. More shots, even at a lesser RAP level, still means more DPS. More shots, being affected by less armor, means even more DPS. Not having to waste item slots on haste means more slots designated for armor penetration meaning more DPS. Imagine, if you will, a BM Hunter with the Gronnstalker BP, bracers, belt, and boots, and the rogue drops/LWing pieces for the shoulder, gloves, legs, and helm slots, the appropriate rings, and the SW bows. You're talking about near 2k passive armor penetration, combined with 20% passive haste, full time without having anything based on procs. They're still getting massive amounts of AGI and AP so they're losing out on nothing. SV Hunters, on the other hand, are going to have to pray to the gods that they get the M'uru trinket, the Brutallus necklace, and then decide whether they're going to continue to use the Fiends cloak OR ignore double Felmyst daggers and stay with the Felspine.
But back to the point of the above paragraph (was a big of a diatribe), as we are a class/spec based purely on critical hits and relegated to lesser DPS for the benefit of the raid, you have GOT to take into account your own personal DPS. A lot of people have made note of it, which is obvious by all of the WWS logs showing extremely nice damage, but Armor Pen is an obscenely powerful stat that makes our spec line even more powerful. As we're critting more than anyone else, the less armor that affects our shots means that those crits hit a lot harder than they normally would. SO, you're seeing the importance of intelligently stacking armor pen and haste. Ya can't go full bore with one and ignore the other. The major downside to all of this, which has frustrated me to no end, is that we're having to wait forever to get what we need to make this all work. Everyone else can just plug and play with their gear, we're sitting there with lists of items necessary to make our jacked up spec work to it's ultimate end just so that we're as beneficial as a stand alone player in the raid as we are as a raid buffer. Messed up, I swear.
/rant off
Last edited by Bovii : 05/19/08 at 11:56 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
After reading through the pages it seems like haste is a good idea for SV.
Looking through the haste items available I've come up with this list of loot that I could get:
53 Felspine
30 Clutch of Demise
25 Cloak of Fiends
28 Hard Khorium Band
A total of 136 haste. This gives a 2.09 speed with AotH. With drums and AotH it's 1.99. With a DST proc/Haste Potion/AotH and drums it's clear that I'll make it into the 3:2 section, but is there any easy way to know if 2.09 will make it into the 3:2 shot rotation without having to get the gear first and go to Dr.Boom?
Another thing, everyone is saying haste is good but what is the actual DPS difference form 2:1 to 3:2. Is it really worth getting haste to get to a 3:2 is the damage is the same as 2:1, you just save some mana.
Looking through the haste items available I've come up with this list of loot that I could get:
53 Felspine
30 Clutch of Demise
25 Cloak of Fiends
28 Hard Khorium Band
A total of 136 haste. This gives a 2.09 speed with AotH. With drums and AotH it's 1.99. With a DST proc/Haste Potion/AotH and drums it's clear that I'll make it into the 3:2 section, but is there any easy way to know if 2.09 will make it into the 3:2 shot rotation without having to get the gear first and go to Dr.Boom?
Another thing, everyone is saying haste is good but what is the actual DPS difference form 2:1 to 3:2. Is it really worth getting haste to get to a 3:2 is the damage is the same as 2:1, you just save some mana.
Last edited by Flyx : 05/19/08 at 2:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Flyx
After reading through the pages it seems like haste is a good idea for SV.
Looking through the haste items available I've come up with this list of loot that I could get: 53 Felspine 30 Clutch of Demise 25 Cloak of Fiends 28 Hard Khorium Band A total of 136 haste. This gives a 2.09 speed with AotH. With drums and AotH it's 1.99. With a DST proc/Haste Potion/AotH and drums it's clear that I'll make it into the 3:2 section, but is there any easy way to know if 2.09 will make it into the 3:2 shot rotation without having to get the gear first and go to Dr.Boom? Another thing, everyone is saying haste is good but what is the actual DPS difference form 2:1 to 3:2. Is it really worth getting haste to get to a 3:2 is the damage is the same as 2:1, you just save some mana. |
The difference in DPS between 2:1 and 3:2 is pretty substantial. Remember, the bulk of your DPS, in both options, is being enhanced by the 4 piece T6 set bonus. That means that the more Steady Shots that you fire, the more often that you're taking advantage of the bonus which equates to more DPS. The only time that this changes is when you're in a 1:1 rotation and, at that point, your DPS just spiked to God levels with no down side to mana usage.
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Originally Posted by Boovo
My question is really about (and i guess im wanting someone to tell me straight) talent tweaking and where i'm best spending those extra few points, and also about haste and trinkets. So lets start with talents:
1) I'm currently specced with 5/5 iAS. I'm running SSC and TK regularly. There's a lot of trash with sheeping, so i'm using a 1:1.5 macro without multi (no KC - sub question is that good?), and switching to a 1:1.5 macro with multi for boss mobs and when there's no sheep about. I'm keeping 5 points in iHM whatever. (all this on advice from forums), but now i'm seeing plenty of people with those 5 points in iAS spent in MT instead (and since theyve gone there using a point in readiness). What's the current consensus? (since my mana had been good with 3/3 TofH, i was even considering dropping those 2/5 in efficiency and putting them in barrage). 2) Haste. Plenty of talk of spending 2 points in Rapid Killing. But I also read that haste for SV is bad, so i didnt bother and havent been using RK at all. But now further reading people are saying use RK and readiness where possible. And if thats the case, well i have [Dragonspine Trophy] from my BM days in the bank, should i have that equipped? I currently have [Berserker's Call] & [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Bloodlust Brooch] (crit vs AP??). Should i be hasting where possible and then switching to 1:1 under haste? Thanks for any comments. Here's my macros: 1:1.5 (delete multi for my with sheep macro) #showtooltip Steady Shot /castsequence reset=2.57 !Auto shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() 1:1 (ok, 3:2 but 1:1 under haste right?) #showtooltip Steady Shot /cast !Auto shot /cast Steady shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() |
I will say that it does seem that you are misusing your points in IAS though. Sounds like you are only using it in situations of crowd control and not using it on bosses, which is a waste of 5 talent points on bosses. You should be optimizing your DPS for bosses and not trash. I recommend two options. These are:
a) IAS build: Put only enough points into IAS for your base weapon speed to get a tight 1:1.5 rotation. If they are any extra points (i.e, don't need 5/5 in IAS), put them someplace useful such as Rapid Killing or MT. Then use the 1:1.5 IAS rotation almost always. Only use multishot in situations of multiple targets with no CC to do extra damage.
b) No IAS build: Your default rotation is a 1:1.5 with multishot, which you use in all cases except around CC. Around CC, you back off to a 1:1.3 rotation with just arcane (auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady). The 5 points not in IAS can be placed in talents such as MT (and Readiness if drop 1 in Toth), Barrage, or Rapid Killing depending on which works best for you.
Whether or not to use KC depends on whether it causes you problems or not. Problems that KC can cause are clipping of autos in your rotation and additional mana usage. If you can use KC without either of those two problems being a nuissance, then go ahead and do so since its additional DPS. Its really a case by case basis, and you just have to see whether using it affects you postively or negatively.
2) Concerning haste. There are two main factions. Those that are at end game and using a auto-steady spam (2:1, 3:2, 1:1 rotations) with haste to try to achive the BM rotations and those that are not as progressed and who get max DPS from a 1:1.5 rotation.
For the end game situation (just mentioning this at high level since doesn't apply to you (or me) yet), more haste effects are almost always better. That includes drums, haste potions, rapid fires, quick shots, DST procs, bloodlusts, etc. In general, also a little passive haste is good as well to help tighten up the base rotation to a true 2:1 when not under dynamic haste effects.
For those of us not able to pull off a auto-steady rotation for max DPS yet, we need to continue using the 1:1.5 rotation. With this rotation, haste is a little tricker. A small amount of haste can be good in that it can tighten up the rotation and increase DPS; however, after that small amount of haste (how much depends on base weapon speed and other passive haste effects), additional haste is lost on the 1:1.5 rotation since you are constrained by your arcane shot and multishot cooldowns and end up with deadtime waiting for those shots to become available. If the haste effect is large enough, then we can switch to a auto-steady spam and get DPS higher than from our 1:1.5 rotation. However, there is a large range of haste (how much depends on base weapon speed and other factors), where the auto-steady spam provides inferior DPS to the 1:1.5 rotation. The general rule for 1:1.5ers is that if that haste effect is small (e.g, drums) then stay with the 1:1.5 rotation, but if the haste effect is large (i.e, rapid fire), then use the steady auto spam. If the haste effect is in between (haste potion, bloodlust, DST), whether to switch to 1:1 or not depends on many factors.
As an example (since numbers vary with base weapon speeds, gear, different latency, etc. conditions), using your base weapon speed of 3.0, my gear and talents, and assuming a perfectly hand-weaved executed 1:1.5 rotation with 200ms latency, theoretically as haste rating is increased, DPS improves by diminishing amounts until you hit around 292 haste rating, at which point haste no longer affects your 1:1.5 rotation. At about haste of 545, the 1:1 rotation starts to provide better DPS than the 1:1.5 rotation. (Note that it is not until haste of over 900 that the 3:2 rotation outperformed the 1:1.5 and the 2:1 never outperformed it. This is because my gear does not bias my DPS towards an auto-steady rotation. If I had either the T5 or T6 4 set bonus and/or the BT exalted trinket which all provide better steady shot damage, the haste ratings at which the various auto-steady rotations out perform the 1:1.5 become lower. This is the situation of which the end game survival hunters take advantage.) Thus, for haste effects topping 545 haste rating, one in this case should switch to a 1:1 rotation but stay with the 1:1.5 for all other cases. The only single haste effect that will pass the 545 is Rapid Fire, which is 628 haste rating. So using Rapid Fires and switching to a 1:1 rotation will increase your DPS during those periods. Bloodlust combined with about 75 static haste or some other haste effects like drums will be enough to warrant switching rotations as well.
As a further illustration using my 2.8 base weapon speed, the 1:1.5 rotation tops out at about 168 haste, and the 1:1 rotation tops it at about 412 haste. So both Rapid Fires and Bloodlusts will result in the 1:1 rotation performing better for me. Haste potions are about 12 haste rating short by itself, but if I switched to a 1:1 then, the DPS drop would be small. Now I could add some passive haste gear (with assuming all stats are the same except for the addition of some haste rating) with between 12 and 168 haste that would both tighten up my 1:1.5 rotation making it perform better and making haste potions by themselves always resulting in 1:1 rotation providing better DPS.
Of course, the results above are for illustrative purposes only and will very with different gear, talents, and real-life playing situations.
I hope that helps you to understand haste effects on a survival hunter better and to realize that using Rapid Fire whenever you can is a good thing and not a bad thing, making the Rapid Killing talent a good talent. In addition, it shows that using DST (325 haste) is probably not beneficial for you at the moment (although it can be as you progress further and can use the end game survival rotations).
Concerning your macros, the second one should actually perform a 2:1 unhasted and can actually chain more than two steadies if spamming it unhasted. A little bit of haste tightens it to better perform a 2:1 without steady chains. As haste effects increase more, the 2:1 eventually becomes a 3:2 and then a 1:1.
Concerning your first macro, there are some aspects of it you should be aware. It does not implement the true 1:1.5 rotation. Instead of casting either multishot or arcane shot after every other steady shot, it will cast one of those two shots after any steady shot that it is available. Thus, you can have an arcane shot and a multishot after consecutive steadies, which will result in a loss of DPS relative to the true 1:1.5 rotation. In addition, depending on weapon speed, latency, haste effects, it can result in additional auto-steadies between the specials. This can be both a good things and a bad thing. For minor haste effects, it results in a loss of DPS realtive to the true 1:1.5 since it pushes out the specials too far; however, as haste effects increases, it can result in higher DPS since allows the hasted 1:1 rotation with inserting specials as they are available for additional DPS. Also, note that it is possible to have back to back arcanes as your special instead of alternating the specials, which is not necessarily a problem. With that said, it is still a fine macro to use. The only macro of which I am aware that implements a true 1:1.5 rotation is a /castsequence macro, and those have their own set of problems. If you have low latency though, you may want to try one out and see whether it works better for you or not than your current macro.
You say that the difference is minute and I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that the missing haste changes your rotation in certain circumstances. You're going to see 2:1 shots with anything under 211 haste with IAotH up in between the 3:2 you're gonna get.(1) The 216 (adding drums to the 136 listed by Flyx) seems almost ideal and wether or not giving up the armor pen from the [Signet of Primal Wrath] in favor of the haste from [Hard Khorium Band] to make sure you will shoot 3:2 100% of the time while IAotH procs is worth it is hard to estimate right now. In my experience a bit of haste can make a big difference when it ends up altering your rotation, instead of just "tightening" it.
To take maximum benefit from 7/21/34 you're going to need 211 haste rating, so without drums you need 131 from gear.
In my mind it isn't worth it going 7/21/34 and getting the 131 from gear if you have to give up as much armor pen as you currently must. Basically unless you can wear the [Blackened Naaru Sliver] instead of [Shivering Felspine] to get your haste rating in my mind it is not worth speccing. Many people disagree with me though.
(1) Small explanation:
>211 Haste & IAotH up
A-S-S-A-S-A-S-S-A-S-A
<211 Haste & IAotH up
A-S-S-A-S-A-S-S-A-S-S-A
To take maximum benefit from 7/21/34 you're going to need 211 haste rating, so without drums you need 131 from gear.
In my mind it isn't worth it going 7/21/34 and getting the 131 from gear if you have to give up as much armor pen as you currently must. Basically unless you can wear the [Blackened Naaru Sliver] instead of [Shivering Felspine] to get your haste rating in my mind it is not worth speccing. Many people disagree with me though.
(1) Small explanation:
>211 Haste & IAotH up
A-S-S-A-S-A-S-S-A-S-A
<211 Haste & IAotH up
A-S-S-A-S-A-S-S-A-S-S-A
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Originally Posted by Energy
You say that the difference is minute and I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that the missing haste changes your rotation in certain circumstances. You're going to see 2:1 shots with anything under 211 haste with IAotH up in between the 3:2 you're gonna get.(1) The 216 (adding drums to the 136 listed by Flyx) seems almost ideal and wether or not giving up the armor pen from the [Signet of Primal Wrath] in favor of the haste from [Hard Khorium Band] to make sure you will shoot 3:2 100% of the time while IAotH procs is worth it is hard to estimate right now. In my experience a bit of haste can make a big difference when it ends up altering your rotation, instead of just "tightening" it.
To take maximum benefit from 7/21/34 you're going to need 211 haste rating, so without drums you need 131 from gear. In my mind it isn't worth it going 7/21/34 and getting the 131 from gear if you have to give up as much armor pen as you currently must. Basically unless you can wear the [Blackened Naaru Sliver] instead of [Shivering Felspine] to get your haste rating in my mind it is not worth speccing. Many people disagree with me though. (1) Small explanation: >211 Haste & IAotH up A-S-S-A-S-A-S-S-A-S-A <211 Haste & IAotH up A-S-S-A-S-A-S-S-A-S-S-A |
Lets look at the numbers. Assuming a 3.0 speed bow and 0 latency, you get the following:
Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ no procs: 2.4 draw speed
Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums: 2.29 draw speed
Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ Hawk proc: 2.09 draw speed
Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums and Hawk proc: 1.99 draw speed
Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ no procs: 2.44 draw speed
Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums: 2.33 draw speed
Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ Hawk proc: 2.13 draw speed
Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums and Hawk proc: 2.03 draw speed
So, as you can see, you're gaining 4 one-hundredths of a second in speed at the expense of armor penetration. With both gear setups, you're still not at a 3:2 rotation with drums and you only hit that with either an Improved Aspect of the Hawk proc or the Hawk proc w/ drums. You could try and squeeze a 3:2 rotation with just the drums and 4 pieces of haste gear but that is gonna be just ugly with the amount of clipping that is going to happen.
Just my opinion on my complete and total lack of any sort of outside impact.
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Originally Posted by Boovo
OK, nearly 80 pages of posts...
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/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
This was the macro I used. It has been a while, so the "castsequence" part may be obsolete. The point is 5/5 Imp AS is not always "better" than 4/5 or 3/5. Later I found it was necessary to throw 5 points in when using the badge x-bow.
I've gone away and had a think and it occured to me that we don't need any haste to actually get to a 3:2 rotation, we just need a different macro to swap to whenever DST or IAotH procs, or deliberately not spam the current macro too much. I've spent some time using cheeky's spreadsheet and it turns out that skipping haste items except Clutch of Demise all together and simply manually swapping to a 3:2 whenever DST or IAotH procs is best. It may take a little bit of getting used to but overall works out better (at least Cheeky says so).
If anyone is wondering I used 2x Shiv of Exsanguination instead of Shivering Felspine, Thalassian Wildercloak instead of Cloak of Fiends and Signet of Primal Wrath + Angelista's Revenge instead of Hard Khorium Band.
If anyone is wondering I used 2x Shiv of Exsanguination instead of Shivering Felspine, Thalassian Wildercloak instead of Cloak of Fiends and Signet of Primal Wrath + Angelista's Revenge instead of Hard Khorium Band.
Last edited by Flyx : Yesterday at 12:16 PM.
Thanks for the response Whitefyst & binky
Well ill go respecc (thinking BM for vashj ) but after that you've definitely talked me out of iAotH which im not keen on cos i tend to miss it. these procs have such short durations im missing the trick on them.
i'd gone 5/5 iAS based on cheeky's xls - it was the highest dps. i do have a 3.0 speed, but with a small 25 haste on my badge chest; my shot speed is 2.57. i have to say this one felt really nice, hardly any sticking points, and i can see the rotation working with the spam macro well. hard to test that on vashj, such a tuff fight and a lot of running around and downtime. but i'm going to try readiness when we start afresh tmrw on TK & SSC.
Well ill go respecc (thinking BM for vashj ) but after that you've definitely talked me out of iAotH which im not keen on cos i tend to miss it. these procs have such short durations im missing the trick on them.
i'd gone 5/5 iAS based on cheeky's xls - it was the highest dps. i do have a 3.0 speed, but with a small 25 haste on my badge chest; my shot speed is 2.57. i have to say this one felt really nice, hardly any sticking points, and i can see the rotation working with the spam macro well. hard to test that on vashj, such a tuff fight and a lot of running around and downtime. but i'm going to try readiness when we start afresh tmrw on TK & SSC.
btw, ive just tamed myself a fresh wind serpent which needs some loyalty training. im wondering why people are using
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
why not just have it on auto?
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
why not just have it on auto?
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Originally Posted by Bovii
Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ no procs: 2.4 draw speed Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums: 2.29 draw speed Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ Hawk proc: 2.09 draw speed Ring, neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums and Hawk proc: 1.99 draw speed Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ no procs: 2.44 draw speed Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums: 2.33 draw speed Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ Hawk proc: 2.13 draw speed Neck, cloak, and Felspine w/ drums and Hawk proc: 2.03 draw speed So, as you can see, you're gaining 4 one-hundredths of a second in speed at the expense of armor penetration. |
The key number here is where the Hawk proc is concerned IMO. The 4 pieces of haste gear put you just under the 3:2 sweet spot of 2.10. Above that, there are instances where you'll fire 2 steadys per auto over and over, and won't yield a true 3:2 rotation. At least that has been my experience.
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Originally Posted by Boovo
btw, ive just tamed myself a fresh wind serpent which needs some loyalty training. im wondering why people are using
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath why not just have it on auto? |
If it is on autocast then anytime a mob is stunned or the pet gets rooted it will stay out of physical attack range and could position itself poorly. Its just safer to have it written into the macro so the Serpent goes where he should for the duration of the encounter.
Hey guys. I have a few questions here.
1. I use my Hunter for both PvE and PvP. I'm looking at a respec because I recently found out that with 26% crit chance, MT is a lot better than IAotH. What I am wondering is whether it is worth it to get Wyvern Sting for the 12 second disable and go 4/5 MT or to skip WS and go 5/5 MT. I've had Wyvern Sting in my build for a while now and found it useful on some occasions both PvE and PvP, however I just want to know what you guys think about it.
2. There's something wrong with my shot rotation. I am using Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix, I have IAotH (soon changing that, like I said in #1,) and DST. When I am doing spamming my shot rotation button with no haste buffs, there is about 0.75-1 second pause between Arcane Shot and the next Auto. I'm wondering if this is something that's wrong with my rotation or if It's normal to have this pause.
I first noticed this with the shot rotation Auto-Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady. I changed it to Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady to see if that would make a difference but the same problem still occurs and I think It's affecting my DPS negatively.
3. When using talents like MT and EW which have a chance to increase your AP or Crit Chance, what's the formula used to determine what the increase in DPS and/or other stats are.. In Cheeky's it shows that I have 26% crit chance, but putting 5/5 MT in ups my crit chance to 30% and I'm wondering what the formula is to reach this number.
Thanks.
1. I use my Hunter for both PvE and PvP. I'm looking at a respec because I recently found out that with 26% crit chance, MT is a lot better than IAotH. What I am wondering is whether it is worth it to get Wyvern Sting for the 12 second disable and go 4/5 MT or to skip WS and go 5/5 MT. I've had Wyvern Sting in my build for a while now and found it useful on some occasions both PvE and PvP, however I just want to know what you guys think about it.
2. There's something wrong with my shot rotation. I am using Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix, I have IAotH (soon changing that, like I said in #1,) and DST. When I am doing spamming my shot rotation button with no haste buffs, there is about 0.75-1 second pause between Arcane Shot and the next Auto. I'm wondering if this is something that's wrong with my rotation or if It's normal to have this pause.
I first noticed this with the shot rotation Auto-Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady. I changed it to Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady to see if that would make a difference but the same problem still occurs and I think It's affecting my DPS negatively.
3. When using talents like MT and EW which have a chance to increase your AP or Crit Chance, what's the formula used to determine what the increase in DPS and/or other stats are.. In Cheeky's it shows that I have 26% crit chance, but putting 5/5 MT in ups my crit chance to 30% and I'm wondering what the formula is to reach this number.
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by PreTXT
P.P.S This for Aym: on last evening, I was checking the benefit of ToTH.
Coriolis - WWS On a 9 min fight, I regained the equivalent of 2 Fel Mana pots, with about 48% crit (stats from character sheet). So, yeah, I could have been easily using 2 Haste pots. |
In BT you would also not use as much leather gear as that which you find in Sunwell, and your int would be higher, thus your regen couped with the breaks in combat, will be higher. My focus is on the enrage-timer fights, or where your mana drain will be excessive.
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Originally Posted by Bovii
Actually, that was all directed at Wunlastri and Memnauk. So no, those comments weren't directed at you in any way. BUT, now that you've drawn my wrath, I WILL UNLOAD!!! (kidding)
First, my comments about haste, Aym, was more directed at making the macro more fluid. You can run a 2:1 macro rotation without any haste what so ever. But, over the duration of a fight, you will end up clipping Auto Shots. It doesn't have anything to do with the macro, as some have speculated (but that is a different point caused by Kill Command), but has everything to do with the timing of your shots. Personally, I've NEVER been a fan of the 1:1.5 rotation. I despise Arcane Shot with a passion and Multi-Shot never lives up to its potential unless there are multiple targets in your attack zone. THOUGH, I will say that I've given some thought to a modified 2:1 rotation that substitutes a Steady Shot with a Multi-Shot... haven't tried it out but I'm wondering if it wouldn't offer more DPS over the same period of time while offering less of a pushback on Auto Shots. BUT, I digress. The whole point of adding haste for the 5/20/36 or 7/20/34 specs is to make the rotation more fluid. While 80 haste rating is seen as a good spot, especially as it can be achieved with a Felspine and one other piece of gear, pushing 100+ is really the better option for the 3.0 speed weapon. Second, as for my comments on the 5/20/36 - 7/20/34 vs 0/20/41 specs, I've always felt that you could do mor DPS on shorter fights with the pure SV spec, versus the hybrid, while having little to no item haste. This is even more apparent when you're in a group setting that doesn't offer a Blood Lust or Heroism. And if you add in the lack of a DST, the hybrid spec really starts to lose its power. Again, the powe of the hybrid spec comes from haste stacking. If you don't have anything to stack, you're not really gaining anything over the pure SV spec. And while Master Tactician lacks a lot of true power, mostly because it procs too little, lasts too little, and pushing 50-60% haste offers little, its impact is greater in conjunction with other SV talents than IaotH simply because 15% haste, alone, isn't going to do anything to your rotation to change it to increase your DPS potential. Two Rapid Fires in sequence followed by a haste pot, though, is a huge boost. |
I crave for readiness these days, as our guild is trying out on twins. A misdirection on Sacrolash'es second tank (we're piling up on the ledge and killing Sacrolash first) would open up for a bit more DPS time for everybody, and help out a lot.
My current speculation still stands though: 3/3 TOTH over 2/2 focused fire. More mana regen for our diminishing mana pools as we pick leather with agi instead of int, over 2,3% total damage. Thus far, nobody has been able to come with suggestions, and i didnt have any fights tonight (we tried on twins) where i would be firing away constantly for several minutes, to get any real data.
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Originally Posted by Aym
More mana regen for our diminishing mana pools as we pick leather with agi instead of int...
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Originally Posted by binky
Aside from Cursed Vision of Sargeras or Duplicitous Guise, what leather items do you see as having no "better" mail equivalents in SW?
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[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Just to name a few, there are olot more. Also, as seen above with the gloves, there are many LW'ing recipes that produce great leather items for hunters, chest, etc
I guess it is a matter of taste...BUT for a SV spec...
Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix
Embrace of the Phoenix
Starstalker Legguards
are a better choice.
Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix
Embrace of the Phoenix
Starstalker Legguards
are a better choice.
I wouldn't exactly argue that. My understanding from reading this thread is that you want a certain amount of passive haste rating from gear. Adding upon that base amount (80 is a number which has been thrown around a few times) can help tighten your rotation if you lack drums, or give you the ability to switch to the BM rotations more smoothly (thanks to Whitefyst for the very nice summary on haste in a previous post). Stacking haste with pieces like [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] and [Embrace of the Phoenix] is something that's been considered not worth doing if there are other pieces with more worthwhile stats. And in this case, there are.
Compare [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] with [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] for example. There's some extra AP and a substantial amount of armor penetration and crit rating on the leather gloves compared to the mail ones. Add to that an easier to obtain socket bonus (as we're stacking agi gems more than anything else) and you've got a pretty clear advantage.
The same goes for [Embrace of the Phoenix] versus [Bladed Chaos Tunic]. Another option is [Vicious Hawkstrider Hauberk] off M'uru, which comes down to your current gear more than anything else (can you spare the loss of int? Do you care for 5 more points of agility over the leather chest?) I do agree with you on the legs though, as the extra agi's worth the sacrifice of some armor pen and you have to get intellect from SOME pieces of gear. But even the legs are up for debate.
In the end of course, it all comes down to what's available to you. Considering the fact that the tunic, for example, is both a druid AND a rogue chest (and personally, I pass on leather upgrades for the rogues right now - not sure what most guilds' policy is on that), you have to wonder if either of the mail chests aren't a better choice. Although we all know Sunwell will be the last 25-man before WotLK, and seeing as how most hardcore guilds are already at Twins/M'uru, it's going to get cleared quite a few times still. So leather might not be out of reach.
Compare [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] with [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] for example. There's some extra AP and a substantial amount of armor penetration and crit rating on the leather gloves compared to the mail ones. Add to that an easier to obtain socket bonus (as we're stacking agi gems more than anything else) and you've got a pretty clear advantage.
The same goes for [Embrace of the Phoenix] versus [Bladed Chaos Tunic]. Another option is [Vicious Hawkstrider Hauberk] off M'uru, which comes down to your current gear more than anything else (can you spare the loss of int? Do you care for 5 more points of agility over the leather chest?) I do agree with you on the legs though, as the extra agi's worth the sacrifice of some armor pen and you have to get intellect from SOME pieces of gear. But even the legs are up for debate.
In the end of course, it all comes down to what's available to you. Considering the fact that the tunic, for example, is both a druid AND a rogue chest (and personally, I pass on leather upgrades for the rogues right now - not sure what most guilds' policy is on that), you have to wonder if either of the mail chests aren't a better choice. Although we all know Sunwell will be the last 25-man before WotLK, and seeing as how most hardcore guilds are already at Twins/M'uru, it's going to get cleared quite a few times still. So leather might not be out of reach.
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Originally Posted by Bovii
...snip...mail equivalent and drop the Felspine for dual Felmyst daggers....snip...
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Some nice news courtesy of MMOchampion and some new best-in-slot items to report!
[Item 'cloak of unforgivable sin' not found!]
[Item 'coif of alleria' not found!]
[Item 'thalassian ranger gauntlets' not found!]
and debatably
[Crux of the Apocalypse] (2x Socketed with 10 agi will be 9 more agility (5 more from enchants), 1 more haste and same +AP as Felspine).
All these drop from Kil'jaeden though so going to be a while until we see someone with the lot!
Edit: It seems these items aren't present on the Wowhead database at the moment so if you want to see them you'll have to go visit mmo-champion, they're very nice though! The cloak especially so.
2nd Edit: It seems Thori'dal has been changed to 2.70s speed... seems to be something of a monster nerf from our point of view (especially seeing as how the BM hunters were just starting to work out a way to make 3.00 work for them with very positive results).
[Item 'cloak of unforgivable sin' not found!]
[Item 'coif of alleria' not found!]
[Item 'thalassian ranger gauntlets' not found!]
and debatably
[Crux of the Apocalypse] (2x Socketed with 10 agi will be 9 more agility (5 more from enchants), 1 more haste and same +AP as Felspine).
All these drop from Kil'jaeden though so going to be a while until we see someone with the lot!
Edit: It seems these items aren't present on the Wowhead database at the moment so if you want to see them you'll have to go visit mmo-champion, they're very nice though! The cloak especially so.
2nd Edit: It seems Thori'dal has been changed to 2.70s speed... seems to be something of a monster nerf from our point of view (especially seeing as how the BM hunters were just starting to work out a way to make 3.00 work for them with very positive results).
Last edited by Aerevyn : 05/22/08 at 8:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ondskaben
You keep referencing the felmyst daggers. Surely you mean the twins dagger, [Shiv of Exsanguination]?
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Yes, my head hurts.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
[Crux of the Apocalypse] (2x Socketed with 10 agi will be 9 more agility (5 more from enchants), 1 more haste and same +AP as Felspine).
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52+10+35= 97 Agi from [Shivering Felspine]
Seems to me that you're only trading 1 agi for 1 haste when you switch to those and while having 2 1handers seems preferable for weapon oil reasons, it's hardly an upgrade.
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Originally Posted by Aerevyn
2nd Edit: It seems Thori'dal has been changed to 2.70s speed... seems to be something of a monster nerf from our point of view (especially seeing as how the BM hunters were just starting to work out a way to make 3.00 work for them with very positive results).
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You can't really speak of a nerf since the previous range was 353-540 and the current range is 355-524.
The 3.0 speed version had an average damage of 446.5 and the current one has 439.5. That's not a very significant "nerf".
I do agree 2.7 speed is less than ideal but you have to consider the change from 3.0/148.8dps to 2.7/162.8dps a buff, still. You're not going to get the passive haste to shoot 3:2 with a 2.7 bow in unhasted conditions so you won't be gaining much dps in those situations but when you are under hasted conditions a 2.7 bow is argueably better than a 3.0 one.
Your Rapidfire, Quickshots, Haste Potion and Dragonspine hasted shots are going to be much tighter with a 2.7 bow. You could drop some of the passive haste required to make 7/20/34 work as well, so you gain stats in other areas.
Overall I still think this bow is miles above any alternative and while I realize you weren't argueing against that, I do think it is a misconception to call the change a nerf. In reality being able to drop down from the haste rating required to make 7/20/34 work in addition to the added dps the bow brings will give you more than a legendary upgrade.
Last edited by Energy : 05/22/08 at 12:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by Energy
(18+10+20)*2 = 96 Agi from 2x [Crux of the Apocalypse]
52+10+35= 97 Agi from [Shivering Felspine] Seems to me that you're only trading 1 agi for 1 haste when you switch to those and while having 2 1handers seems preferable for weapon oil reasons, it's hardly an upgrade. |
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Originally Posted by Energy
I do agree 2.7 speed is less than ideal but you have to consider the change from 3.0/148.8dps to 2.7/162.8dps a buff, still. You're not going to get the passive haste to shoot 3:2 with a 2.7 bow in unhasted conditions so you won't be gaining much dps in those situations but when you are under hasted conditions a 2.7 bow is argueably better than a 3.0 one.
Your Rapidfire, Quickshots, Haste Potion and Dragonspine hasted shots are going to be much tighter with a 2.7 bow. You could drop some of the passive haste required to make 7/20/34 work as well, so you gain stats in other areas. Overall I still think this bow is miles above any alternative and while I realize you weren't argueing against that, I do think it is a misconception to call the change a nerf. In reality being able to drop down from the haste rating required to make 7/20/34 work in addition to the added dps the bow brings will give you more than a legendary upgrade. |
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise): 2.48 draw speed and 2.23 draw speed
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise) w/ drums: 2.36 draw speed and 2.13 draw speed
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise) w/ hawk: 2.16 draw speed and 1.94 draw speed
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise) w/ drums and hawk: 2.05 draw speed and 1.85 draw speed
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise) w/ DST: 2.05 draw speed and 1.85 draw speed
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise) w/ Bloodlust/Heroism: 1.91 draw speed and 1.72 draw speed
83 haste rating (felspine/blackened sliver and demise) w/ Rapid Fire: 1.78 draw speed and 1.6 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver): 2.44 draw speed and 2.2 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver) w/ drums: 2.33 draw speed and 2.09 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver) w/ hawk: 2.13 draw speed and 1.91 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver) w/ drums and hawk: 2.01 draw speed and 1.81 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver) w/ DST: 2.01 draw speed and 1.81 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver) w/ Bloodlust/Heroism: 1.88 draw speed and 1.69 draw speed
107 haste rating (felspine and blackened sliver) w/ Rapid Fire: 1.74 draw speed and 1.57 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver): 2.4 draw speed and 2.16 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver) w/ drums: 2.29 draw speed and 2.06 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver) w/ hawk: 2.08 draw speed and 1.89 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver) w/ drums and hawk: 1.99 draw speed and 1.79 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver) w/ DST: 1.99 draw speed and 1.79 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver) w/ Bloodlust/Heroism: 1.84 draw speed and 1.66 draw speed
137 haste rating (felspine, demise, and blackened sliver) w/ Rapid Fire: 1.71 draw speed and 1.54 draw speed
Those are all really rough numbers. But if you look at it AND you're one of the lucky Hunters who will get their hands on Thor'idal, you really can just kind of pick and choose what you want to do in terms of gear. With just an 83 haste rating, you're in a workable, though somewhat clunky, 3:2 rotation with a 1:1 rotation every time that you pop Rapid Fire.
As Energy said, the options really open up at that point and you can start stacking gear towards a different end if you so choose. Stacking Armor Pen is definitely an option and not having to resort to all leather, thus not limiting your mana pool, is going to be a blessing.
PS> Is anyone else bothered by the fact that our helm, gloves, and bow drop from the very last boss? Seriously, c'mon!!!
[Clutch of Demise]
[Item 'cloak of unforgivable sin' not found!]
[Shivering Felspine]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Blackened Naaru Sliver]
[Drums of Battle]
277 Haste Rating
2.7/(1.15*(1+277/1570))= 2.0 draw speed and we all know what that means.
[Item 'cloak of unforgivable sin' not found!]
[Shivering Felspine]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Blackened Naaru Sliver]
[Drums of Battle]
277 Haste Rating
2.7/(1.15*(1+277/1570))= 2.0 draw speed and we all know what that means.
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Originally Posted by Energy
[Clutch of Demise]
[Item 'cloak of unforgivable sin' not found!] [Shivering Felspine] [Hard Khorium Band] [Blackened Naaru Sliver] [Drums of Battle] 277 Haste Rating 2.7/(1.15*(1+277/1570))= 2.0 draw speed and we all know what that means. |
Getting more support
Made the switch to SV about a month ago, and liking it pretty well. Problem I am having recently is group support. Typical raid consist of 2 rogues, fury warrior, ms warrior, enchance shammy, feral druid, 2 prot warriors and prot pally along with myself and usually a bm hunter. Fill up the rest with the caster types and healers.
Because my buff and the ms warrior's buff affects the raid, we are usually grouped together with a couple priest or holy pallies. If i'm lucky I get in the group with the 1 resto shammy we have. The bm hunter usually gets grouped with the bastard lock mage group not in with spriest and ele shammy.
I'm trying to argue that putting the feral druid and sv hunter together and putting the ms warrior with the other melee groups is better overall, but the "melee gang' refuses to part with the lotp buff. We call this group, "Group 1", as that's the group they put themselves in, and they are all usually atop the dps meters.
I'm trying to push for what I call the "Group 5" set up of both hunters, feral druid, resto shammy and something else (bm hunter ideally, but not usually possible).
Do I have a leg to stand on here? I'm trying to compile the numbers, but I'm not very good at it and thought I'd ask the experts.
Because my buff and the ms warrior's buff affects the raid, we are usually grouped together with a couple priest or holy pallies. If i'm lucky I get in the group with the 1 resto shammy we have. The bm hunter usually gets grouped with the bastard lock mage group not in with spriest and ele shammy.
I'm trying to argue that putting the feral druid and sv hunter together and putting the ms warrior with the other melee groups is better overall, but the "melee gang' refuses to part with the lotp buff. We call this group, "Group 1", as that's the group they put themselves in, and they are all usually atop the dps meters.
I'm trying to push for what I call the "Group 5" set up of both hunters, feral druid, resto shammy and something else (bm hunter ideally, but not usually possible).
Do I have a leg to stand on here? I'm trying to compile the numbers, but I'm not very good at it and thought I'd ask the experts.
I typically get put in with rogues and hunters. Every now and then I get a feral druid. The #1 phys dps group usually contains Fury warrior, Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladin, Top Rogue, Feral druid. The enh shaman was gone last raid and I got bumped into that group. Was nice for a change getting the ret and feral buffs.
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Originally Posted by Bovii
I don't know, that is too much damned haste in my opinion. You're dropping 2 item slots to gain 0.06 speed (60 haste rating) with drums. I'd be more apt to go with a Thalassian/Dory + badge ring combo as you're getting more out of it in the long run. Just personal preference...in case you haven't noticed it yet, Armor Pen makes me happy in the pants.
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Bleh, forgot about the gem slot in the Unforgivable Sins cloak. Sorry.
Edit: nm see you saw the socket now!
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Originally Posted by Uzemaki
Made the switch to SV about a month ago, and liking it pretty well. Problem I am having recently is group support. Typical raid consist of 2 rogues, fury warrior, ms warrior, enchance shammy, feral druid, 2 prot warriors and prot pally along with myself and usually a bm hunter. Fill up the rest with the caster types and healers.
Because my buff and the ms warrior's buff affects the raid, we are usually grouped together with a couple priest or holy pallies. If i'm lucky I get in the group with the 1 resto shammy we have. The bm hunter usually gets grouped with the bastard lock mage group not in with spriest and ele shammy. I'm trying to argue that putting the feral druid and sv hunter together and putting the ms warrior with the other melee groups is better overall, but the "melee gang' refuses to part with the lotp buff. We call this group, "Group 1", as that's the group they put themselves in, and they are all usually atop the dps meters. I'm trying to push for what I call the "Group 5" set up of both hunters, feral druid, resto shammy and something else (bm hunter ideally, but not usually possible). Do I have a leg to stand on here? I'm trying to compile the numbers, but I'm not very good at it and thought I'd ask the experts. |
I don't mind doing less damage because I'm lacking group buffs, if it's the setup that maximizes raid dps, and for my guild, it is. Your mileage may vary, especially when ferals are involved.
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Originally Posted by Uzemaki
Made the switch to SV about a month ago, and liking it pretty well. Problem I am having recently is group support. Typical raid consist of 2 rogues, fury warrior, ms warrior, enchance shammy, feral druid, 2 prot warriors and prot pally along with myself and usually a bm hunter. Fill up the rest with the caster types and healers.
Because my buff and the ms warrior's buff affects the raid, we are usually grouped together with a couple priest or holy pallies. If i'm lucky I get in the group with the 1 resto shammy we have. The bm hunter usually gets grouped with the bastard lock mage group not in with spriest and ele shammy. I'm trying to argue that putting the feral druid and sv hunter together and putting the ms warrior with the other melee groups is better overall, but the "melee gang' refuses to part with the lotp buff. We call this group, "Group 1", as that's the group they put themselves in, and they are all usually atop the dps meters. I'm trying to push for what I call the "Group 5" set up of both hunters, feral druid, resto shammy and something else (bm hunter ideally, but not usually possible). Do I have a leg to stand on here? I'm trying to compile the numbers, but I'm not very good at it and thought I'd ask the experts. |
For us, it's 2 ferals, 1 Def-Warrior and 1 Prottie who are available for raids.
Most of the time we go with 1 feral and the Def-Warrior.
Groups look like:
MT-grp
MT1
MT2 (feral)
SV-Hunter
Resto-Shammy
[random] (afli-lock / other hunters, if no other, more vailable slot available / MS Warrior)
Melee-grp
Rogue1
Rogue2
Enhancer
Warrior1 (fury) / Retri-pally
Warrior2 (MS)
A hunter/hunter/feral/shaman/XXXX-grp therefore isn't that unrealistic to be successfull with :>
More simply put, we have 2 warriors, 2 rogues, and an enhance shammy. Since one of the warriors is MS they stick him in the bastard group, and put the feral druid in there. I was thinking giving the MS warrior windfury and sticking the feral druid with a group of hunters that can still use the LOTP would be better than sticking the feral in the melee and having the ms warrior and 2 hunters with no support, especially since EW and FI proc off crits.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well to be honest we've been round the group setup block a couple of times already. However If peeps are interested in demonstrating to their Guild Leaders and or Raid Leaders why they should support a hunter group instead of "just dumping a SV and maybe a BM willey nilly to fill the raid up" I can give the ammunition in the form of an actual live example.
The Target of the example is Tsegoa.
The Format is 2 Brutallus logs in consecutive weeks, the 1st has 3 hunters randomly placed and without support, the second comprises the much refered to "ideal" setup of
SV Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Feral Druid
Resto Shaman
The first Tsegoa pulled 1898 DPS
The second Tsegoa pulled an astonishing 2487 DPS
The following post refers to the "ideal" attempt.
I actually managed to ferit out his previous weeks log of 1898, but WWS is down for me at the moment however this should be the link. http://wowwebstats.com/h5fdpo4ltlvb1?s=12742-13120
The difference is like Chalk and cheese, Night and day, Black and white, The group generates an additional 2k RAID DPS when compared with a non supported hunter group. Truly amazing difference.
You should almost certainly have a Retri Pally in the melee grp with this set up to give the all important JoW as mana needs supporting without question.
Now the real question is how much DPS can a couple of hunters add just slung in any old caster or even melee group??? Well I'll say with absolute confidence it aint anywhere near the ADDITIONAL 2k DPS this group achieves.
The Target of the example is Tsegoa.
The Format is 2 Brutallus logs in consecutive weeks, the 1st has 3 hunters randomly placed and without support, the second comprises the much refered to "ideal" setup of
SV Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Feral Druid
Resto Shaman
The first Tsegoa pulled 1898 DPS
The second Tsegoa pulled an astonishing 2487 DPS
The following post refers to the "ideal" attempt.
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Originally Posted by gggiiimmmppp
I promised an ideal-raid Brutallus kill a week or two ago after I posted my gorefiend WWS, but we ended up with a shitty group last week so the parse wasn't spectacular. Without further ado, I present for your perusal tonight's Brutallus kill: WWS Loading... (2487 DPS).
My party was Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, BM Hunter x2 and myself, with 4 drums (I was on screech duty, sadly). We had an arms warrior and ret paladin as well. I'm going to give it a shot with 0/20/41 next week to see how it stacks up, if we can get away with the same raid makeup. EDIT: 7/20/44, no DST, G15 spamming cast/cast with /click |
The difference is like Chalk and cheese, Night and day, Black and white, The group generates an additional 2k RAID DPS when compared with a non supported hunter group. Truly amazing difference.
You should almost certainly have a Retri Pally in the melee grp with this set up to give the all important JoW as mana needs supporting without question.
Now the real question is how much DPS can a couple of hunters add just slung in any old caster or even melee group??? Well I'll say with absolute confidence it aint anywhere near the ADDITIONAL 2k DPS this group achieves.
Last edited by Tiberium : 05/24/08 at 3:03 AM.
Not sure where else to post this so I'll start here and hope for the best. I've been raiding as survival spec probably a bit earlier than I should have been from what I've read in the past as far as agi goes. I've decided that after running survival for awhile that I enjoyed it enough that I wasn't going to turn back and want to put a good amount of time and energy into gearing up and specing a good raid survival spec.
Our guild is just now starting to take down the first few bosses in SSC and TK on a weekly basis and slowly progressing through. My question to you all, if you don't mind, is could you take a moment to take a look at my spec..which is slightly off from the standard 0/21/40 and let me know if its viable or what changes could be made to make it better. I realize that playstyle makes a difference to some and I've had good luck and do fairly well with the spec I have (0/28/33) right now.
I'm trying to max my agi as I move up with equipment while maintaining decent AP and keeping my hit at 95. All in all I guess I'm more concerned with keeping EW up and helping the raid overall as opposed to personal DPS.
As this is my first post, I hope I don't piss anyone off with the whole "check my spec" post but need a place to start and the advice of those who know what they're talking about so I can move up from there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Armory Link
Our guild is just now starting to take down the first few bosses in SSC and TK on a weekly basis and slowly progressing through. My question to you all, if you don't mind, is could you take a moment to take a look at my spec..which is slightly off from the standard 0/21/40 and let me know if its viable or what changes could be made to make it better. I realize that playstyle makes a difference to some and I've had good luck and do fairly well with the spec I have (0/28/33) right now.
I'm trying to max my agi as I move up with equipment while maintaining decent AP and keeping my hit at 95. All in all I guess I'm more concerned with keeping EW up and helping the raid overall as opposed to personal DPS.
As this is my first post, I hope I don't piss anyone off with the whole "check my spec" post but need a place to start and the advice of those who know what they're talking about so I can move up from there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Armory Link
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Originally Posted by Tiberium
Well to be honest we've been round the group setup block a couple of times already. However If peeps are interested in demonstrating to their Guild Leaders and or Raid Leaders why they should support a hunter group instead of "just dumping a SV and maybe a BM willey nilly to fill the raid up" I can give the ammunition in the form of an actual live example.
The Target of the example is Tsegoa. The Format is 2 Brutallus logs in consecutive weeks, the 1st has 3 hunters randomly placed and without support, the second comprises the much refered to "ideal" setup of SV Hunter BM Hunter BM Hunter Feral Druid Resto Shaman The first Tsegoa pulled 1898 DPS The second Tsegoa pulled an astonishing 2487 DPS The following post refers to the "ideal" attempt. I actually managed to ferit out his previous weeks log of 1898, but WWS is down for me at the moment however this should be the link. Wow Web Stats The difference is like Chalk and cheese, Night and day, Black and white, The group generates an additional 2k RAID DPS when compared with a non supported hunter group. Truly amazing difference. You should almost certainly have a Retri Pally in the melee grp with this set up to give the all important JoW as mana needs supporting without question. Now the real question is how much DPS can a couple of hunters add just slung in any old caster or even melee group??? Well I'll say with absolute confidence it aint anywhere near the ADDITIONAL 2k DPS this group achieves. |
We just recruited another resto shammy and another feral druid, so hopefully that gives us a little more flexibility in our group set up.
In an effort to try and answer some ppl who want to know the best inslot items for both maximising personal DPS and EW AP, i have comprised a complete list of the best SV gear setup here:
[Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet
I think this will answer alot of people's questions regarding Gear, etc. Please dont hesitate to say if u find something wrong, or misleading, after all its what forums are all about !
[Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet
I think this will answer alot of people's questions regarding Gear, etc. Please dont hesitate to say if u find something wrong, or misleading, after all its what forums are all about !
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Originally Posted by Crackdog
In an effort to try and answer some ppl who want to know the best inslot items for both maximising personal DPS and EW AP, i have comprised a complete list of the best SV gear setup here:
[Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet I think this will answer alot of people's questions regarding Gear, etc. Please dont hesitate to say if u find something wrong, or misleading, after all its what forums are all about ! |
Moving the Glinting Pyrestone to boots and the Delicate Crimson to the Shoulder? I'm Running OpenOffice so I cannot look at spread sheets and move them around myself and get accurate results with out the Macros. Can someone tell me what this would do?
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Could you Increase your DPS by moving a few Gems around? Moving the Glinting Pyrestone to boots and the Delicate Crimson to the Shoulder? I'm Running OpenOffice so I cannot look at spread sheets and move them around myself and get accurate results with out the Macros. Can someone tell me what this would do? |
So I just picked up a Wind Serpent in Netherstorm and had a few questions that I couldn't find the answers to in this thread. First what skills should I teach in besides using Lightning breath. Should i use bite, or just Lighting Breath to save focus. raid buffed i'm at 41% crit, 46% with feral Druid so thats the only question really or if theres any other skills i should know about
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Originally Posted by Senicus
So I just picked up a Wind Serpent in Netherstorm and had a few questions that I couldn't find the answers to in this thread. First what skills should I teach in besides using Lightning breath. Should i use bite, or just Lighting Breath to save focus. raid buffed i'm at 41% crit, 46% with feral Druid so thats the only question really or if theres any other skills i should know about
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Theorycrafting has shown a ~3dps increase with Bite on autocast (can't seem to find the link at the moment), but there is plenty of contention that "live" results haven't reflected this finding, if any, many claim its a detriment.
I'm personally around 40% crit raid buffed as BM spec, so I generally leave Bite on for sustained DPS fights. For fights were burst dps is favoured, say elemental duty on Vashj, bite stays off to save every focus point for LB.
Your mileage may vary, but thats how I approach it.
Hi all!
I already posted this to Shot-rotation thread, but i haven't got answer, so i decided to post here too.
2 days ago i respecced to SV, and i cannot find a good macro nowhere..
so i went to Dr. Boom to make one.
I realized that i cannot compare the macros via damage done, because of the small sample taking time.So i realized that the efficiency of the macro depends on the "shot per second"-ratio. When i was BM i started with the simple /castsequence macro with 1:1, than i swiched to a more effective 3:2. This 3:2 delays auto, but make a bigger "shot per second"-ratio, therefore get bigger dps with bigger mana consumption.
so i keep trying to make some similar for SV hunters. I find out this. i achieved with this macros the highest "shot-per -second" ratio. I'm not 100% sure what im done, because im not an expert in macros,but it works. Both macro uses the separeted KC-macro form Manito. You can attach the usual spam removing and sound removing lines.
Macro without Multi-Shot:
Macro with Multi-Shot
Please try out, and any comment would be appreciated.
regards
Mephala
I already posted this to Shot-rotation thread, but i haven't got answer, so i decided to post here too.
2 days ago i respecced to SV, and i cannot find a good macro nowhere..
so i went to Dr. Boom to make one.
I realized that i cannot compare the macros via damage done, because of the small sample taking time.So i realized that the efficiency of the macro depends on the "shot per second"-ratio. When i was BM i started with the simple /castsequence macro with 1:1, than i swiched to a more effective 3:2. This 3:2 delays auto, but make a bigger "shot per second"-ratio, therefore get bigger dps with bigger mana consumption.
so i keep trying to make some similar for SV hunters. I find out this. i achieved with this macros the highest "shot-per -second" ratio. I'm not 100% sure what im done, because im not an expert in macros,but it works. Both macro uses the separeted KC-macro form Manito. You can attach the usual spam removing and sound removing lines.
Macro without Multi-Shot:
/cast !Auto Shot /castsequence reset=6 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot,Steady Shot,Steady Shot,Steady Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast !Auto Shot /castsequence reset=6 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot,Steady Shot, Steady Shot /castsequence reset=10 Multi-Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
regards
Mephala
My guild set foot in T6 content recently after killing Vashj and Kael in the last months. At the moment Im looking at weighed itemisation for T6-lvl drops in regards to spending my dkp.
For context, this is a WWS-log from a recent MH try:
Anetheron - Wow Web Stats
Kaz'Rhogal - Wow Web Stats
And be.imba audit:
Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft
As I gather from this thread, the consensus is that with 4xT6, 100+ passive haste and as much active haste as possible, SV Hunter damage is done exclusively via the 3:2 /cast macro (and via 1:1,5 untill those conditions are met - with /cast macro again under enough active haste). I've assumed thusfar that the best Weapon to do this with would be a standard 3.0 speed weapon (Vashj's, Archimonde's etc...).
My question is, would the 2.9 speed Legionkiller lead to a smoother 3:2 rotation and a switch to 1:1 rotation under less active haste then you would see with a 3.0 speed weapon? And if so, wouldn't this be preferable to a 3.0 speed weapon in the sense that you can spend more itemisation on Armour-negation instead of Haste?
For context, this is a WWS-log from a recent MH try:
Anetheron - Wow Web Stats
Kaz'Rhogal - Wow Web Stats
And be.imba audit:
Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft
As I gather from this thread, the consensus is that with 4xT6, 100+ passive haste and as much active haste as possible, SV Hunter damage is done exclusively via the 3:2 /cast macro (and via 1:1,5 untill those conditions are met - with /cast macro again under enough active haste). I've assumed thusfar that the best Weapon to do this with would be a standard 3.0 speed weapon (Vashj's, Archimonde's etc...).
My question is, would the 2.9 speed Legionkiller lead to a smoother 3:2 rotation and a switch to 1:1 rotation under less active haste then you would see with a 3.0 speed weapon? And if so, wouldn't this be preferable to a 3.0 speed weapon in the sense that you can spend more itemisation on Armour-negation instead of Haste?
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Originally Posted by Mephala
...
Macro with Multi-Shot /cast !Auto Shot /castsequence reset=6 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot,Steady Shot, Steady Shot /castsequence reset=10 Multi-Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 |
If you reversed those two lines I would expect multi, steadt, steady, painfully long pause here
As far as reaching theoretical max shot counts, best you can do is get a special every 1.5 seconds. You can cheat that a little by manually firing another special late enough so that your latency allows the original shot to fire anyway. Lets assume you arent doing that though since this is a macro discussion. So you have a special every 1.5 seconds. Now you need as many autos as possible. The /cast !auto shot line with no auto shot lines anywhere in your cast sequence achieves this. Auto will fire when it can as long as you arent casting something else. Waitinbg on the GCD allows this to happen and stacking haste effects allows this to happen more frequently.
Additionally, /castsequence macros specifically suffer from 2x the latency penalty because of how they work. Generally people find them to work worse than the 3:2 spam macro. Having said that these things work differently for eveyrone based on the amount of static haste they have, their spec, latency, and bow speed so it just may be that this one works best for you in your situation. Probably this one works "tolerably well" and the regular 3:2 macro doesnt work worth a damn (chains steadies).
Would be good if you could post some additonal information. Using recount how many autos, steadies, arcanes, and multies were fired. For multi remove the shots that hit bombs if you are on dr boom. Recount will also tell you how loing the test ran for. For shot counts just add the normal, crit, miss, etc together to get the total shots fired. so need shot counts and time for each test run. To see how well you are doing yourself just take the total time the test ran and divide it by 1.5. The closer your apecial shot count gets to this the better. Now take that time and divide it by your shot time (2.52 or whatever). The closer your auto shot count gets to this the better.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Crackdog
In an effort to try and answer some ppl who want to know the best inslot items for both maximising personal DPS and EW AP, i have comprised a complete list of the best SV gear setup here:
[Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet I think this will answer alot of people's questions regarding Gear, etc. Please dont hesitate to say if u find something wrong, or misleading, after all its what forums are all about ! |
Or heck I guess you could leave that the way it is throw a 10 hit in your felspine use a madness instead of a zerkers call and eat some 20 hit food instead of agi food. But thats a loss of 30 agi
Last edited by Aern : 05/27/08 at 7:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aern
The gear set you linked there does seem very nice and what I plan to end up in for the most part once we get the rest of sunwell down. One problem I do see is the rather low amount of hit on the gear. Not much of a problem if you're running 20/41 or if you have a moonkin in the raid, but seeing as how I'm running neither 20/41 nor do we have a boomkin in our raids (I know I hate my guild's raid setup too) switching in drape of the dark reavers for the KJ cloak and trying to pick up a duplicitous guise might be a way to fix that, leaving you at 138 hit instead of 91. Might be some other better options but those were two things off the top of my head.
Or heck I guess you could leave that the way it is throw a 10 hit in your felspine use a madness instead of a zerkers call and eat some 20 hit food instead of agi food. But thats a loss of 30 agi |
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Originally Posted by Crackdog
Im assuming u didnt read the top of the post where it states you are hit capped vs a lvl 73 mob? U only need 90-95 hit rating with 3/3 surefooted. (95 being the cap of course)
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ok guys, 1st post here.
I'm atad lost when it comes to using haste with the 3:2 2 part macro. I'm current using 3.00 speed weapon off archimonde with a current cast time of 2.61 seconds, only haste i currently have is that of rapidfire+beserking. When looking it is a 3:2 however seems to clip every now and again.
How much haste should i attempt to get to make the macro more efficient?
I'm atad lost when it comes to using haste with the 3:2 2 part macro. I'm current using 3.00 speed weapon off archimonde with a current cast time of 2.61 seconds, only haste i currently have is that of rapidfire+beserking. When looking it is a 3:2 however seems to clip every now and again.
How much haste should i attempt to get to make the macro more efficient?
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Originally Posted by firedetei
ok guys, 1st post here.
I'm atad lost when it comes to using haste with the 3:2 2 part macro. I'm current using 3.00 speed weapon off archimonde with a current cast time of 2.61 seconds, only haste i currently have is that of rapidfire+beserking. When looking it is a 3:2 however seems to clip every now and again. How much haste should i attempt to get to make the macro more efficient? |
The macro is supposed to clip. However it fires a greater overall number of shots than non-clipping. Basically you end up replacing some auto shots with steady shots when you look at your total shot mix.
The issue is with the macro chaining steadies and not allowing some autos that should fire to fire. People with 100+ms ping times generally get good results from the macro once they get close to 80 haste rating. You will want to get quartz and recount and go stand in front of DR Boom for a good long time to figure out if the macro works well enough for you. If it doesnt then you will end up doing crappy dps and your options are 1) move to a 1:1.5 rotation, 2) learn to manually thread or 3) spec BM until you get more haste gear. Option 3 worked real well for me while we were moving through BT.
With 2.61 draw speed you should be shooting 2:1, not 3:2.
And thats what he is shooting, thats why so many people find the macro effective it automatically switches to your best rotation based on how much haste you have.
Uh he says he's shooting 3:2 when looking.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
the last brutalus fights ive been experementing a little.
my grp is 1 bm H, 2 Prot wars 1 Resto shammy and me as surv with a 7/20/34 spec
last week Wow Web Stats
i had class trink from bt 2 X bad mojos and agii elixir and ravager only haste was the cloak 25 haste, 1393 armor pen totaly
this week i had Wow Web Stats
i had Madness of B, felspine and cloak as haste 78 haste and a serpant. and took elixir of demonslaying, 1113 armor pen toataly
i have 4 questions is my amount of steadys to much can i boost my dps by changing macro and 2 question is which pet shall i use.which trink shall i use class trink or madness and the last question shall i go for the haste with felspine or go for the armor pen on the daggers
my macro is manitos 3:2 macro
1:st macro
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomRightButton7
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
2:d macro
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
anyone with a opinion plz tell me
ops and the second try i got 1 burn and had to pot 1 mana pot instead of 1 haste pot .
my grp is 1 bm H, 2 Prot wars 1 Resto shammy and me as surv with a 7/20/34 spec
last week Wow Web Stats
i had class trink from bt 2 X bad mojos and agii elixir and ravager only haste was the cloak 25 haste, 1393 armor pen totaly
this week i had Wow Web Stats
i had Madness of B, felspine and cloak as haste 78 haste and a serpant. and took elixir of demonslaying, 1113 armor pen toataly
i have 4 questions is my amount of steadys to much can i boost my dps by changing macro and 2 question is which pet shall i use.which trink shall i use class trink or madness and the last question shall i go for the haste with felspine or go for the armor pen on the daggers
my macro is manitos 3:2 macro
1:st macro
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomRightButton7
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
2:d macro
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
anyone with a opinion plz tell me
ops and the second try i got 1 burn and had to pot 1 mana pot instead of 1 haste pot .
Last edited by Juggen : 05/28/08 at 6:08 PM.
If this needs to be in the "help me" thread, delete away.
My guild is currently JUST starting 25 man content(we downed gruuls two weeks ago....). Im making the switch to Survival in preperation for this. I was wondering what the current theorycrafting says on Thrill of the hunt.
It seems like it really helps with mana(i NEVER get in with a Spriest and we have ZERO ret pallys), but if the points could be better spent somewhere else to increase my/the raids DPS id more then happy to keep chuggin felmana pots.
Anyway after all my ramblings, to thrill or not to thrill?
Heres my armory is case is matters(dont ake fun of me. i JUST switched to Survival a week ago)
The World of Warcraft Armory
My guild is currently JUST starting 25 man content(we downed gruuls two weeks ago....). Im making the switch to Survival in preperation for this. I was wondering what the current theorycrafting says on Thrill of the hunt.
It seems like it really helps with mana(i NEVER get in with a Spriest and we have ZERO ret pallys), but if the points could be better spent somewhere else to increase my/the raids DPS id more then happy to keep chuggin felmana pots.
Anyway after all my ramblings, to thrill or not to thrill?
Heres my armory is case is matters(dont ake fun of me. i JUST switched to Survival a week ago)
The World of Warcraft Armory
In my knowledge Crossbow of Relentless Strikes(badge) surpasses all pre 2.4 weapons for a SV hunter, but how about Golden Bow of Quel'thalas(from Twins)? Which one is better, and by how much if golden bow is?
I'm asking this here since our guild currently has no hunty CL and our rogues(including me ^^) want the golden bow since it's the best ranged slot item after legendary bow and we will not be getting the legendary :p
I'm asking this here since our guild currently has no hunty CL and our rogues(including me ^^) want the golden bow since it's the best ranged slot item after legendary bow and we will not be getting the legendary :p
A idea popped in my head yesterday and I'd thought I would run it by you guys.
I am currently using the archimonde bow, and I keep the dead parrot in my bags (I did see an increase in dps after going from the dead parrot to the Britzle-whatever).
My thought was during haste times (rapid fire, bloodlusts), would it be better to switch to the x-bow during those times to get more shots off?
I have 0 passive haste rating at the moment, and I use the /cast /cast macro and weave in AS and multi's during normal times.
I am currently using the archimonde bow, and I keep the dead parrot in my bags (I did see an increase in dps after going from the dead parrot to the Britzle-whatever).
My thought was during haste times (rapid fire, bloodlusts), would it be better to switch to the x-bow during those times to get more shots off?
I have 0 passive haste rating at the moment, and I use the /cast /cast macro and weave in AS and multi's during normal times.
My observation has been that I get more dps from Black Bow of the Betrayer than I do from the XBow. I have a DST, felspine, and cloak of fiends. Anyone have any evidence that would contradict this? If you armory me I currently use hit food until I pick up madness.
Yeah I've tried out both bows and my dps is consistently higher with Black Bow as SV than with the badge xbow.
I get more dps with the 3.0 speed bow, and hand weaving AS and multi's, but was wondering during heavy hasted periods (bl, rf), if going to a faster weapon and getting more shots out would be better dps for that period of time. Unfortunately I dont have a dst and have never seen it drop in the 20-30ish times i've run gruuls. So my hasted periods are a little more predictable.
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Originally Posted by Carnivori
In my knowledge Crossbow of Relentless Strikes(badge) surpasses all pre 2.4 weapons for a SV hunter, but how about Golden Bow of Quel'thalas(from Twins)? Which one is better, and by how much if golden bow is?
I'm asking this here since our guild currently has no hunty CL and our rogues(including me ^^) want the golden bow since it's the best ranged slot item after legendary bow and we will not be getting the legendary :p |
- Oh, and if you see me as BM on armory it means i'm working on M'uru...
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
My observation has been that I get more dps from Black Bow of the Betrayer than I do from the XBow. I have a DST, felspine, and cloak of fiends. Anyone have any evidence that would contradict this? If you armory me I currently use hit food until I pick up madness.
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With a 0/20/41 spec and around 80 passive haste a 3.0 bow/gun with comparable dps shooting 2:1 is always going to surpass the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] in dps.
It is pretty much a good rule of thumb that if you're using high end gear and/or have access to high end gear, badge gear isn't going to factor in. It serves as an intermediary "band aid" until you get something from the content that you're working on OR as an extreme bump in gear for those who are far behind.
My little brother's guild is still wiping on Vashj and hasn't even looked at Kael. SO, for him and his guildies, the badge gear is awesome and their hunters are excelling because of the xbow. BUT, if you're in the Sunwell, there isn't any reason that you should be using that ugly piece of garbage unless 1) you just got guilded and are way behind in gear, 2) you have a dead parrot fetish, 3) you don't read the EJ boards which means that you don't know any better, 4) you've been unlucky in ranged weapon drops, or 5) all of the above. Seriously though, people need to stop bringing that thing up as an option for being better than either of the T6 quality bows. It isn't that good and is actually a drop in DPS if your gear is on par with the content that you're experiencing.
My little brother's guild is still wiping on Vashj and hasn't even looked at Kael. SO, for him and his guildies, the badge gear is awesome and their hunters are excelling because of the xbow. BUT, if you're in the Sunwell, there isn't any reason that you should be using that ugly piece of garbage unless 1) you just got guilded and are way behind in gear, 2) you have a dead parrot fetish, 3) you don't read the EJ boards which means that you don't know any better, 4) you've been unlucky in ranged weapon drops, or 5) all of the above. Seriously though, people need to stop bringing that thing up as an option for being better than either of the T6 quality bows. It isn't that good and is actually a drop in DPS if your gear is on par with the content that you're experiencing.
Bovii I thought at the highest level of gear, using 7/20/34 with tons of haste items won out in the 3:2 rotation. This means that the faster weapon would be better to use, right? I don't mind testing, but I thought we spent a few pages with Intermission proving just how OP haste based SV really was.
The only 'flaw' in the 7/20/34 plan was how dependant it was on haste from various sources (BL/ DoB/RF/H Pots/etc)
Once you have enough haste to spend most of the time (as SV not happening) near 2.1, then switching over to 3.0 speed weapon would be better.
The only 'flaw' in the 7/20/34 plan was how dependant it was on haste from various sources (BL/ DoB/RF/H Pots/etc)
Once you have enough haste to spend most of the time (as SV not happening) near 2.1, then switching over to 3.0 speed weapon would be better.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Bovii I thought at the highest level of gear, using 7/20/34 with tons of haste items won out in the 3:2 rotation. This means that the faster weapon would be better to use, right? I don't mind testing, but I thought we spent a few pages with Intermission proving just how OP haste based SV really was.
The only 'flaw' in the 7/20/34 plan was how dependant it was on haste from various sources (BL/ DoB/RF/H Pots/etc) Once you have enough haste to spend most of the time (as SV not happening) near 2.1, then switching over to 3.0 speed weapon would be better. |
I would be interested though to see how little haste that you would need to get the Xbow to work as well as the greater amount of haste and the T6 bows.
EDIT:
OK, so the Xbow saves you from having to gather 110 haste rating (7%) to get a T6 bow down to the same speed without any outside factors. The Xbow adds 14 hit rating and 32 AP while losing 7 crit rating (0.32%) compared to the Bristleblitz Striker. The Xbow add 14 hit rating, 18 crit rating, and 10 AP while losing out on the mana regen compared to the Black Bow. In my mind, you really have to compare what you gain/lose in terms of stats from other slot to make up that 110 haste rating to make the 3.0 speed bows work.
I have a bad feeling that I might be eating my own words here. Now that I'm typing all of this out, and not having time to really look at it in depth, it just feels like that dead parrot contraption might be a good idea.
Last edited by Bovii : 05/30/08 at 3:21 PM.
With CoRS and 52 haste on my current gear. I sit at 2.36speed. Hit that with a IAotH proc and it's down to 2.05; which, for me, is a cool for swapping to my 2:3 macro. Any haste beyond that, DST proc, drums, bloodlust, Rapid fire, etc., should make it drop closer to a 1:1. So, my theory is that this weekend I'll be watching weapon speed and tossing a 1:1.5 (/castrandom Arcane Shot) for unhasted and swapping to 2:3 (/cast /cast) when I see haste buffs impact my weapon speed.
Been playing 0/28/33 (IAS) for a few weeks and swapped to 7/20/34 for this weekend's raids. Sounds like it might work but I really have to see it for myself.
Been playing 0/28/33 (IAS) for a few weeks and swapped to 7/20/34 for this weekend's raids. Sounds like it might work but I really have to see it for myself.
Just a heads up from the BM thread as it applies to SV macro "automated" spam clicking just as much as for the BM dudes. Not good news I'm afraid.
Q u o t e:
Hello Blizzard,
After unsuccessfully attempting to get clarification via an in-game ticket, I would like to see if the rules can be clarified regarding key repeating software. In light of recent bans, it is unclear what is or isn't allowed, and bearing in mind the majority of players want to follow the rules, it would be of great help if a statement could be made regarding key repeating software.
Previously, the apparent community understanding had been: if it doesn't automate gameplay, and requires you to be present at the keyboard playing the game, then it is legal. It seems with recent bans, this may not actually be the case.
My specific question is: is it okay to use software (or hardware drivers, or external hardware devices) that continually repeat ("spam") a key bound in-game to a macro or ability while another key is held down and while a player is present at the keyboard playing the game? For Hunters, for instance, spamming our shot rotation macro. I'm sure other classes have similar needs, perhaps not 10-20 times per second like a Hunter, but the same idea. Many aspects of the game make key spamming desirable, but is it legitimate to use external drivers/software to achieve it?
I'd love to not have to break my keyboard, fingers, and wrist to achieve maximum DPS, but I would also hate to wake up one morning and find I was banned for using a repeater. Please help myself and other Hunters follow the rules
Thanks.
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This is not okay. One hardware function = one action, according to standard macro rules. A hardware function is a keypress (including press/release) associated with movement and an ability/item. Obviously, our default macro rules enable you to use 'modifying' trinkets or abilities, such as nature's swiftness, plus a single spell all in a single press.
To clarify: No, you may not use hardware or software to auto-spam your shot rotations - period.
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Malkorix has the largest range of any wild land animal in the Americas. His range spans 110 degrees of latitude, from northern Yukon in Canada to the southern Andes.
Q u o t e:
Hello Blizzard,
After unsuccessfully attempting to get clarification via an in-game ticket, I would like to see if the rules can be clarified regarding key repeating software. In light of recent bans, it is unclear what is or isn't allowed, and bearing in mind the majority of players want to follow the rules, it would be of great help if a statement could be made regarding key repeating software.
Previously, the apparent community understanding had been: if it doesn't automate gameplay, and requires you to be present at the keyboard playing the game, then it is legal. It seems with recent bans, this may not actually be the case.
My specific question is: is it okay to use software (or hardware drivers, or external hardware devices) that continually repeat ("spam") a key bound in-game to a macro or ability while another key is held down and while a player is present at the keyboard playing the game? For Hunters, for instance, spamming our shot rotation macro. I'm sure other classes have similar needs, perhaps not 10-20 times per second like a Hunter, but the same idea. Many aspects of the game make key spamming desirable, but is it legitimate to use external drivers/software to achieve it?
I'd love to not have to break my keyboard, fingers, and wrist to achieve maximum DPS, but I would also hate to wake up one morning and find I was banned for using a repeater. Please help myself and other Hunters follow the rules
Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not okay. One hardware function = one action, according to standard macro rules. A hardware function is a keypress (including press/release) associated with movement and an ability/item. Obviously, our default macro rules enable you to use 'modifying' trinkets or abilities, such as nature's swiftness, plus a single spell all in a single press.
To clarify: No, you may not use hardware or software to auto-spam your shot rotations - period.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malkorix has the largest range of any wild land animal in the Americas. His range spans 110 degrees of latitude, from northern Yukon in Canada to the southern Andes.
Sad.
Having both a g15 and a Gaming Mouse (Deathadder in this case) I had previously used both the Click,cast,click macros via the g15 and have also almost always used my mouse wheel for one shot rotation or another.
I guess this just means its back to the mouse wheel,
Its sad especially now with windserpent LB spam, mouse wheel is the only way I see left to keep up.
I guess this just means its back to the mouse wheel,
Its sad especially now with windserpent LB spam, mouse wheel is the only way I see left to keep up.
Thats the way it should be, not everyone have those tools and the rules make it even for everyone. Anyways I've always hated the macros. I kept MM spec for long time and only at BT/hyjal I went BM and totally got bored to steady macro and now I'm happy survival. Seems like my gear doesn't fit for any kind of 3:2 rotation, according to spreadsheet 1.1.5 still wins. Even when it fits I'll try it manually.
A question, is there anyone doing 2:1 or 3:2 manually? I've been trying it a few times now but sometimes feels tricky especially when latency is a bit higher.
A question, is there anyone doing 2:1 or 3:2 manually? I've been trying it a few times now but sometimes feels tricky especially when latency is a bit higher.
"This is not okay. One hardware function = one action, according to standard macro rules."
"To clarify: No, you may not use hardware or software to auto-spam your shot rotations - period. "
Somehow I think this guy does not understand that our shot rotation includes one spell + auto shot.
"To clarify: No, you may not use hardware or software to auto-spam your shot rotations - period. "
Somehow I think this guy does not understand that our shot rotation includes one spell + auto shot.
Last edited by Osse : Yesterday at 6:03 PM.
Speaking as someone with a gimp alt survival hunter, I'd like to point out a gray area: The G9 Laser Mouse's "Flywheel" mode. Which I use for macro spamming. If mousewheel clicks are ok, is the G9 ok?
and how do they enforce it?
If I rig up a hairdryer motor to a second USB mouse is this bannable, and if I duct tape a mouse, wheel-side up to an exercise bike is it cheating?
and how do they enforce it?
If I rig up a hairdryer motor to a second USB mouse is this bannable, and if I duct tape a mouse, wheel-side up to an exercise bike is it cheating?
Last edited by Fizwidget : Yesterday at 5:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fizwidget
Speaking as someone with a gimp alt survival hunter, I'd like to point out a gray area: The G9 Laser Mouse's "Flywheel" mode. Which I use for macro spamming. If mousewheel clicks are ok, is the G9 ok?
and how do they enforce it? If I rig up a hairdryer motor to a second USB mouse is this bannable, and if I duct tape a mouse, wheel-side up to an exercise bike is it cheating? |
Speaking of creative use of real-world mechanics, I saw this the other day:
YouTube - matts av fanbot
If you don't need the hit from MotB, isn't using Blackened Naaru Sliver better? With a 7/20/34 build.
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MACRO 1: #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() MACRO 2: /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot Can anyone explain this macro? Well I understand what it should do. My problem is the part with 'MultiBarBottomLeftButton12'. Where do I find that button? (In my opinion it's the Bar1, last Button[12]. So thats where i've got the 2nd macro) But when i spam the macro, the second part doesn't work for me. I spam AS - SS (repeat) but KC won't be triggered :s . So what's the problem? (I use Bartender3 but that shouldn't be the Problem!) |
And yes, Bartender3 is the reason why you are experiencing some trouble, as the macro setup you have mentioned isn't correct according to Bartender3 bars.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Thank you very much for the detailed description. <3
In the end I use my old macro with KC in it.
In the end I use my old macro with KC in it.
Last edited by Dyasphora : 06/06/08 at 3:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by Artemisis
Ok, so heres my first Brutalis kill Wow Web Stats
I was in a ele shaman group with a shadowpriest and a couple casters, 2 drums. I am surviva, at the time 5/20/36, and DIDNT have 4 t6 (missing the belt). Here is my shot macro that I use unhasted: #showtooltip Steady Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() /castsequence reset=2.57 !auto shot, steady shot /cast [exists,target=pettarget] kill command /castrandom arcane shot, multi shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show() Here is my shot rotation with rapid fire, heroism or DST proc: #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /cast !Auto shot /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command /cast Steady shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() I did get 4 burns the entire fight, so I know that hurt a little, and not being in a dps enhancement group, my question is, what could I be doing to up my overall dps? Are my shot macros fubar? I didnt get to use a haste potion due to all the Burns, I kept my pots avail for HP if i needed them. Any help/advice you guys could give would be great |
Suppose it'd be hard to take advice from someone that hasn't seen the Brut fight or has no T6, but I've put what I've read here to the ropes and even in 4 pc T5, I've seen good results. I've opted for 0/20/41 due to gearing, but I can put up about 1700 on Teron Gorefiend FWIW. 3 Drummers, 1 Bloodlust, 2 BM Hunter/Druid/Resto Shaman/Me(surv) Group.
WWS
Armory
Also as an aside, not sure if anyone else has seen this.. but Drum Rotations might be out in WotLK. Apparently a 2 min debuff after someone uses Drums. This was mined from the Alpha Client.
No more drum rotations
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Originally Posted by Chanii
I'm a Draenei, ergo 1% hit (heroic presence) from the racial ability.
3% surefooted + 1% heroic presence = 4% I need another 5% to reach the 9% mark. 15,77 * 5 = 78,85 Ergo my 79 is just right on spot. Re gem: If I use a 10agi I'll be loosing the meta gem bonus since there 2 blue missing. I could socket 2 purples again though but will loose the 3 agi socket bonus from the boots, which is quite nice for a SV Hunter. Hmm... Will try the Bristeblitz bow then. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
What I did was drop two jagged seasprays in the chest so I could get the +4 agi and ignore caring about color. That way to can drop two agi gems in to the boots and 20 agi equates to more than 15+3 or anything else. The gap widens with kings and LR.
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Good idea concerning your T6 breast. Problem is only that I'll loose 10 hit. I could socket the 5hit/5agi into the boots though. By doing so the 3 agi socket bonus from the boots will be activated.
Btw, good idea with the necklace, will buy 2 x [Delicate Crimson Spinel] via badges for it.
ok, what about this:
Boots: [Delicate Crimson Spinel] and [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
Bracers: Resocket to [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
Last edited by Chanii : 06/06/08 at 4:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dreylon
With your gear, I'd respec to 7/20/34, switch to the 2:1/3:2/1:1 auto adjusting macro (steady/autoshot only), pick up the haste back from ZA (should put you at 78 haste with the shivering felspine) and pop haste pots. You shouldn't have mana issues, steady shot is much more efficient than MS/AS and you should see a jump in dps.
Suppose it'd be hard to take advice from someone that hasn't seen the Brut fight or has no T6, but I've put what I've read here to the ropes and even in 4 pc T5, I've seen good results. I've opted for 0/20/41 due to gearing, but I can put up about 1700 on Teron Gorefiend FWIW. 3 Drummers, 1 Bloodlust, 2 BM Hunter/Druid/Resto Shaman/Me(surv) Group. WWS Armory Also as an aside, not sure if anyone else has seen this.. but Drum Rotations might be out in WotLK. Apparently a 2 min debuff after someone uses Drums. This was mined from the Alpha Client. No more drum rotations |
Good...drums are a huge crutch,and having almost the entire guild having LWing is kind of silly anyway. I had planned on getting a couple more haste items to tighten my 1:1.5 rotation..but after testing once i got my 4 piece, the 3:2 is just more mana efficient and higher dps anyway. I can reach about 1300 dps on Dr. Boom unbuffed, and I also have the choice of throwing in an arcane shot when I am not hasted as well. Hopefully next week I wont get so many burns and i can work on upping my dps a lil
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Originally Posted by Artemisis
Good...drums are a huge crutch,and having almost the entire guild having LWing is kind of silly anyway. I had planned on getting a couple more haste items to tighten my 1:1.5 rotation..but after testing once i got my 4 piece, the 3:2 is just more mana efficient and higher dps anyway. I can reach about 1300 dps on Dr. Boom unbuffed, and I also have the choice of throwing in an arcane shot when I am not hasted as well. Hopefully next week I wont get so many burns and i can work on upping my dps a lil
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been experimenting with 2:1 and 3:2 (while hasted) and it seems to be producing better results. I'll have to wait till later in the week to actually get a new WWS, but I'm feeling it does a bit better dps from the first few BT bosses we did last night. (I don't like to rely on Recount's results too much).
but yeah. 1:1.5 just doesn't seem to work these days. I was executing near perfect rotations but the damage output just was not high enough.
I've noticed something in general that I've been watching my combat log like a hawk for, against mobs +0, +1, and +2 my level, as well as bosses; Having an extraordinary level of crit (in my case, base 35.37% unbuffed) seems to push misses off the table, which i've always held as being false before now. I have Surefooted 3/3, and as of current only 64 hit rating, so I SHOULD be missing more often; It's only a combined 7.06% chance to hit, 1.94% under the 9% "no miss" hit cap for hunters.
Is there something that i'm not accounting for here? I don't use WWStats primarily because I don't know hwo to work it, or I would; Help with that would be appreciated as well. Any information as to why I'm finding a entire lack of any misses with my low hit but rather high crit would be very useful as well. And no, I'm not trying to post this to troll; it seems like a very large freak occurance to me, and it just feels wrong regarding it.
Is there something that i'm not accounting for here? I don't use WWStats primarily because I don't know hwo to work it, or I would; Help with that would be appreciated as well. Any information as to why I'm finding a entire lack of any misses with my low hit but rather high crit would be very useful as well. And no, I'm not trying to post this to troll; it seems like a very large freak occurance to me, and it just feels wrong regarding it.
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Originally Posted by Serf
I've noticed something in general that I've been watching my combat log like a hawk for, against mobs +0, +1, and +2 my level, as well as bosses; Having an extraordinary level of crit (in my case, base 35.37% unbuffed) seems to push misses off the table, which i've always held as being false before now. I have Surefooted 3/3, and as of current only 64 hit rating, so I SHOULD be missing more often; It's only a combined 7.06% chance to hit, 1.94% under the 9% "no miss" hit cap for hunters.
Is there something that i'm not accounting for here? I don't use WWStats primarily because I don't know hwo to work it, or I would; Help with that would be appreciated as well. Any information as to why I'm finding a entire lack of any misses with my low hit but rather high crit would be very useful as well. And no, I'm not trying to post this to troll; it seems like a very large freak occurance to me, and it just feels wrong regarding it. |
Edit: Duh he can't raid with draenei being an orc and all >_<
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Originally Posted by Serf
I've noticed something in general that I've been watching my combat log like a hawk for, against mobs +0, +1, and +2 my level, as well as bosses; Having an extraordinary level of crit (in my case, base 35.37% unbuffed) seems to push misses off the table, which i've always held as being false before now. I have Surefooted 3/3, and as of current only 64 hit rating, so I SHOULD be missing more often; It's only a combined 7.06% chance to hit, 1.94% under the 9% "no miss" hit cap for hunters.
Is there something that i'm not accounting for here? I don't use WWStats primarily because I don't know hwo to work it, or I would; Help with that would be appreciated as well. Any information as to why I'm finding a entire lack of any misses with my low hit but rather high crit would be very useful as well. And no, I'm not trying to post this to troll; it seems like a very large freak occurance to me, and it just feels wrong regarding it. |
Boomkins give 3% hit to ranged attacks? eh? Please, enlighten me in that regard.
And as I stated, I have only 64 hit rating, yet given a sample size of 1000 shots, I've yet to miss. It shouldn't be like this, I know that, which is WHY I'm wondering if perhaps crits in some way also drop chance for miss in some manner. I can be soloing or teaming, raiding or not, and still I have no problems with hitting.
And as I stated, I have only 64 hit rating, yet given a sample size of 1000 shots, I've yet to miss. It shouldn't be like this, I know that, which is WHY I'm wondering if perhaps crits in some way also drop chance for miss in some manner. I can be soloing or teaming, raiding or not, and still I have no problems with hitting.
Improved Faerie Fire
Requires 30 points in Balance
Rank 3: Your Faerie Fire spell also increases the chance the target will be hit by melee and ranged attacks by 3%.
Improved Faerie Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft
If you have a moonkin, it should be specced into that, and it should be keeping it up 100% of the time.
Requires 30 points in Balance
Rank 3: Your Faerie Fire spell also increases the chance the target will be hit by melee and ranged attacks by 3%.
Improved Faerie Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft
If you have a moonkin, it should be specced into that, and it should be keeping it up 100% of the time.
That makes sense, as well it should. >.>; Thanks for pointing it out.
But still, we don't usually have a druid in our raids, or if there are they're generally resto or feral. No Balance druids about. And I experience the same lack of missing in solo fights as I do in 5-mans and raids.
Also, I was wondering due to the 2.4 changes with how Hunter's Mark overwrites- if multiple Hunters cast Mark, does the stacking buff (up to 440) actually continue to apply, or does it reset for every new hunter that casts it?
But still, we don't usually have a druid in our raids, or if there are they're generally resto or feral. No Balance druids about. And I experience the same lack of missing in solo fights as I do in 5-mans and raids.
Also, I was wondering due to the 2.4 changes with how Hunter's Mark overwrites- if multiple Hunters cast Mark, does the stacking buff (up to 440) actually continue to apply, or does it reset for every new hunter that casts it?
Last edited by Serf : Yesterday at 10:56 PM.
SV Build Help
Hello, I was playing BM for a while but for a few days ago I wanted to give SV a try. Here is my stuff:
The World of Warcraft Armory
The CC Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear
NO CC Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3/combat !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/script UIError
and you can see my build on armory too, the thing I want to ask is; I was doing much more damage when I was in BM
but I am sure I can do better or at least equal dmg to my old talent build while also buffing the raid.
Is my macros are correct or my build ? I have 3.00 Bow (Betrayer), with quiver and etc its 2.61 speed, do I need more haste items ? If yes how much ?
I am waiting for advices.
Thank you.
The World of Warcraft Armory
The CC Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear
NO CC Macro
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3/combat !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/script UIError
and you can see my build on armory too, the thing I want to ask is; I was doing much more damage when I was in BM
but I am sure I can do better or at least equal dmg to my old talent build while also buffing the raid.
Is my macros are correct or my build ? I have 3.00 Bow (Betrayer), with quiver and etc its 2.61 speed, do I need more haste items ? If yes how much ?
I am waiting for advices.
Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Serf
That makes sense, as well it should. >.>; Thanks for pointing it out.
But still, we don't usually have a druid in our raids, or if there are they're generally resto or feral. No Balance druids about. And I experience the same lack of missing in solo fights as I do in 5-mans and raids. Also, I was wondering due to the 2.4 changes with how Hunter's Mark overwrites- if multiple Hunters cast Mark, does the stacking buff (up to 440) actually continue to apply, or does it reset for every new hunter that casts it? |
As for your question about hunter's mark, good question but I have no clue.
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
If you aren't hit capped, you should be missing much less during 5 mans than raid bosses, (raid bosses being lv 73 and all).
As for your question about hunter's mark, good question but I have no clue. |
As for hunter's Mark, upon further thought, I'd assume that it would indeed consume the buff to RAP and restart it anew, as not only does the icon refresh but it acts as if it were casting an entirely different debuff as well, renewing the casting animation. Since when you refresh it alone, it does not 'recast' the animation, I'd infer from this relation that it does not stack, sadly.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
I've written a new guide for survival hunters- it's oriented towards raiding survival hunters. If you guys have any input on how I could make it better or any corrections I would really appreciate it.
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First off let me say that it's awesome that you compile a lot of useful information for survival hunters and it's certaintly a step in the right direction.
However I think stating that "This spec is more popular at the lower levels of gear where the crit provided by master tactician helps compensate for weaker gear." about 0/20/41 is a misunderstanding. Selecting 0/20/41 over 7/20/34 isn't done to compensate for crit on lower gear levels, it's done to compensate for the lack of haste and more specifically for the lack of a DST. Later on you seem to state this but the haste requirement you list is far below what 7/20/34 would need. Also it's my personal belief that there is no point in going 7/20/34 without 4pc and it would be very questionable if you would have the haste permitting this if your gear level does not exceed 4pc t6.
Basically what I'm saying is that provided 4pc Gronnstalker is available the following speeds are non optional and dictate what your rotation should be:
If you have a 3.0 bow and little haste, try to get as close to 2.5 drawspeed as possible and shoot 2:1.
If you have a 2.8 or 2.7 bow and a lot of haste and a DST, try to get below 2.1 drawspeed, even as low as 1.9 (unrealistic for survival) and shoot a basic 3:2 which will turn into 1:1 while hasted from DST/Haste Potion/. If you end up shooting 2:1 with these bows because of a lack of haste, you are better off dropping the haste in favor of different stats (armor pen, usually) because the haste that puts you below 2.5 draw speed will mostly be wasted on clipped auto shots. It's also better to switch back to 0/20/41 over 7/20/34 then.
If you have a draw speed of below 1.9 you can shoot a 1:1 which will tighten under haste effects and under extreme haste (think lusted/heroism DST/QS procs) even turn into a 1:2.
The macro I advise for all of those is Manito's which is linked various times throughout this thread. Even at no 4pc T6 gear levels it might be more advisable to shoot steady-only rotations because of the way these behave under haste. Added benefits include the fact that while you're not weaving manually, you're not affected by lag and have more time to be situationally aware and although that shouldnt be an argument in a DPS discussion it can often prove to be invaluable to your DPS.
Two more awesome hunters tools you may want to include in your spreadsheet are
A Haste Calculator -> Ray Mears Eats Sweden • Portal
An ArPen Calculator -> World Of Warcraft Armor Penetration Damage Increase Calculator
Really hope someone links your guide in the opening post though, since it seems to sum up some of the more frequently asked questions and although I don't agree with some of the information portrayed in your guide it's certainly better than nothing.
Thank you for the input Energy. I tried to collect as much accurate information as possible before publicizing the guide but my hope is that as people read it and give feedback I can make it better. I added a little more detail about the 4pc T6 requirement by the imp hawk description for now (I had it under 3:2 but not with the spec) and I will sit down later and try to clean up the details more. Honestly the whole haste for 3:2 thing has been really confusing to me, I've read a lot from people on the subject and I keep getting different information, but the 80-100 haste thing I've seen a lot so I've been working with that. By drawspeed do you mean the listed speed on the character sheet? You also don't mention 2.9 speed which is the speed my gun is at.
With regards to the MT spec, most of what I've seen has indicated that the deeper marks builds tend to perform better dpswise although there seems to be a lot of argument over it. That's why I mentioned the low crit because mostly that's what I've seen people say MT should be used for. You don't mention the deep marks builds at all, do you not think they are worthwhile?
I'll look for that macro and see how it compares to what I have. I also added the links you posted for the haste and armor penetration calculator, those are a big help.
Oke, thank you for the details about the TPS, I'm gonna find some way to include that in the calculator later, got a raid now but I should have time to work on it later tonight.
With regards to the MT spec, most of what I've seen has indicated that the deeper marks builds tend to perform better dpswise although there seems to be a lot of argument over it. That's why I mentioned the low crit because mostly that's what I've seen people say MT should be used for. You don't mention the deep marks builds at all, do you not think they are worthwhile?
I'll look for that macro and see how it compares to what I have. I also added the links you posted for the haste and armor penetration calculator, those are a big help.
Oke, thank you for the details about the TPS, I'm gonna find some way to include that in the calculator later, got a raid now but I should have time to work on it later tonight.
Yea to put it bluntly, those specs going deeper than 20 into marks are bad in my opinion. I've never seen a reasonable WWS parse from anyone using 1:1.5 and I very much doubt there's any reason to use those shots, even more so because of the mana use on them.
The 80-100 haste stems from the following equation:
Draw speed (paperdoll ranged attack speed) = Weaponspeed / ( 1.15 * ( 1 + HASTE/1580 )
For a 2:1 rotation you're going to want the following to happen:
Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot.
Now obviously that's 2 global cooldowns and the last SS has to finish .5 seconds before the AS because of the shot delay at it. So ideally you'd have a 1.25 SS with a 2.5 AS, which luckily works out to roughly the same 20% Haste needed with a 3.0 weapon.
1.2/1.15(quiver)~ 4.35% haste ~ 70 haste rating needed. Add a little bit for your lag (10-30 depending on ping) and you'll get a really tight 2:1 rotation.
With a 2.9 gun the ratio of haste you need is less than ideal because to get 1.25 SS you'd need a different %haste than to get a 2.5 AS, but you can make due regardless. This doesn't change the fact that with for instance your gear, you should be shooting 2:1 and I'm quite certain your DPS would be better as 0/20/41.
The 80-100 haste stems from the following equation:
Draw speed (paperdoll ranged attack speed) = Weaponspeed / ( 1.15 * ( 1 + HASTE/1580 )
For a 2:1 rotation you're going to want the following to happen:
Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot.
Now obviously that's 2 global cooldowns and the last SS has to finish .5 seconds before the AS because of the shot delay at it. So ideally you'd have a 1.25 SS with a 2.5 AS, which luckily works out to roughly the same 20% Haste needed with a 3.0 weapon.
1.2/1.15(quiver)~ 4.35% haste ~ 70 haste rating needed. Add a little bit for your lag (10-30 depending on ping) and you'll get a really tight 2:1 rotation.
With a 2.9 gun the ratio of haste you need is less than ideal because to get 1.25 SS you'd need a different %haste than to get a 2.5 AS, but you can make due regardless. This doesn't change the fact that with for instance your gear, you should be shooting 2:1 and I'm quite certain your DPS would be better as 0/20/41.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
I've written a new guide for survival hunters- it's oriented towards raiding survival hunters. If you guys have any input on how I could make it better or any corrections I would really appreciate it. I could especially use any corrections for the dps from AP numbers I tried to collect for the expose weakness calculator- oh btw there's an expose weakness calculator It'd be also nice if I could get some useful equivalency numbers to allow people to make gear judgements better- I'm not an expert on the math.
The guide is at: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics |
You repeatadly say that the 2:1 rotation is also refered to as a 3:2 rotation. Correct me if I´m wrong but so far I assumed a 2:1 rotation to be 2 steadys for each 1 auto shot whereas the 3:2 rotation would be kind of a 1:1.5 rotation that only utilises steady shots as specials leading to 3 steadies every 2 auto shots.
Yea Midnight, you're correct.
Yes indeed Midnight, you are correct!
And to be honest it's getting boring now.
1:1 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - :
1:15 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Multi-Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Arcane Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - :
2:1 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Steady Shot - :
3:2 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Steady Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - :
Never is any shot rotation called something except how i have outlined here.
Unfortunatly there still seems to be people who continue to call a 2:1 rotation, a 3:2. For reasons which still escape me.
Please can people who do the honorable job of answering all the questions of new players coming to these forums try and remember that a 2:1 and a 3:2 are completely different shot rotations.
And to be honest it's getting boring now.
1:1 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - :
1:15 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Multi-Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Arcane Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - :
2:1 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Steady Shot - :
3:2 Rotation = : Auto Shot - Steady Shot - Steady Shot - Auto Shot - Steady Shot - :
Never is any shot rotation called something except how i have outlined here.
Unfortunatly there still seems to be people who continue to call a 2:1 rotation, a 3:2. For reasons which still escape me.
Please can people who do the honorable job of answering all the questions of new players coming to these forums try and remember that a 2:1 and a 3:2 are completely different shot rotations.
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Originally Posted by Stub
I have been trying the 7/20/34 and am 0/20/41 atm. I just can't figure how often the IAtH procs - My calculations say it should be up most of the time:
~10 shots with 10% chance of a 12 sec buff ~ 100% uptime But my experience is that it isn’t, I dont know if it has an internal cooldown? The talent say 10% of all normal ranged attacks, is that only AS or does SS count too ( I would expect SS to be normal…)? When I look at WWS it only count very few procs for Quick Shot or doesn’t it show if it refresh the previous buff? I don’t have the DST or any other passive haste so I keep doing 2:1 or 1:1 while Rapid fire is up. As soon I have +50 haste I will try the 7/20/35 spec again to see if Quick Shot will bring me to a 3:2 rotation. I havent been able to find the information elsewhere, and hope someone can help |
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Originally Posted by Adenhart
That's not true. Depending on your gear/spec, Agility will still give more DPS point for point than hit rating, even while under the cap. Use spreadsheets to see what each point of stats will provide you with personally. That's not to say you don't want to be hit capped, but when it comes to gems/enchants +hit is not always the answer.
One thing I'd have to mention is that Improved FD seems to be an afterthought in the guide. For those 2 filler talents, nothing can potentially increase your DPS more. EDIT: Gear guide is missing [Cursed Vision of Sargeras], [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] |
Missing a shot on MD won't affect anything other than someone waiting to MD after you groaning.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Energy
Well with a 2.5 draw you'd really want 0/20/41 because you're not going to make very good use of the 7 points in BM if you're shooting 2:1
That's one of the points I was trying to make though, that no matter what gear level you are you should basically never use anything but 1:1, 3:2 or 2:1 (all shot via /cast/cast). This obviously means that points in Barrage or IAS are a complete waste, leaving you with only 7/20/34 (<2.1 draw + DST) and 0/20/41 (>2.1 but ideally 2.5 draw) as options. |
Last edited by Korikin : 06/11/08 at 6:51 PM.
Re: Hit rating, I value being capped enough that I stay capped at a loss of around 3-4dps that I could gain by gemming that last socket with agility instead of hit. I think it's worth it to know that you won't run into the 1/500 chance or so of missing when you really need it. These situations are few and far between, but they do come up (maybe when tranq shot is needed in ZA for example).
Re: 2:1 rotation at lower gear levels. I would love to switch to this, but I also see chain steadies constantly. It is not because of damage pushback or anything of that sort, either. I was under the impression that the reason it can happen is that there is not enough room at the end of a steady, before the GCD is up, for the auto shot to fire unless you have some minimal level of haste. Is that not the case, i.e. should my quiver be enough to stop this? If so, why do I still see chaining?
As it is, I'm 20/41, and start the fight with rapid fires, then a haste pot, so I am using /cast/cast a lot of the time anyway. I do switch to 1:1.5 when all of my sources of haste are on cooldown, though.
Re: 2:1 rotation at lower gear levels. I would love to switch to this, but I also see chain steadies constantly. It is not because of damage pushback or anything of that sort, either. I was under the impression that the reason it can happen is that there is not enough room at the end of a steady, before the GCD is up, for the auto shot to fire unless you have some minimal level of haste. Is that not the case, i.e. should my quiver be enough to stop this? If so, why do I still see chaining?
As it is, I'm 20/41, and start the fight with rapid fires, then a haste pot, so I am using /cast/cast a lot of the time anyway. I do switch to 1:1.5 when all of my sources of haste are on cooldown, though.
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Originally Posted by Korikin
I follow the logic I think. I'll try returning to a 0/20/41 in the near future. I always cringe a little taking off my DST I've been milking that trinket for so long and it did so well as BM that it's a hard habit to break. Lol.
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I'm sure there is an easy answer to this; Has anyone noticed the EW debuff on multiple targets after multi shot? I know it is "supposed" to effect only one target but...
Without a doubt, Multi-shot will apply EW to any mob on which it crits. I consistently have off-tanks comment on noticing it.
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Originally Posted by Energy
You don't have to take off your DST. It's required for 7/20/34 but it's not bad for 0/20/41.
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Originally Posted by huntcaudata
Re: 2:1 rotation at lower gear levels. I would love to switch to this, but I also see chain steadies constantly. It is not because of damage pushback or anything of that sort, either. I was under the impression that the reason it can happen is that there is not enough room at the end of a steady, before the GCD is up, for the auto shot to fire unless you have some minimal level of haste. Is that not the case, i.e. should my quiver be enough to stop this? If so, why do I still see chaining?
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I've got a feeling it's something with hasted casts.
Last edited by Riedacher : Yesterday at 12:02 PM.
I think I've wrapped my head around the basics of how the /cast /cast mechanics work enough to rewrite my shot rotations section some. Hopefully what I have now makes more sense. Honestly I think the name /cast /cast is too unwieldy so in my guide I'm calling it a heavy steady rotation (which in my opinion is a good name for it since you're basically choosing to go heavy on your steadies at the expense of your auto shots).
I'm still trying to figure out though when 7/20/34 would be better than 0/20/41 though. If I'm using the calculator properly, even at a 2.8 speed weapon, you would need 250 haste rating to get down to the 2.1 drawspeed. That doesn't seem realistic for any survival hunter without giving up a lot of stats. Yet I'm seeing a lot of high end survival hunters using 7/20/34. Are they basically aiming for the 2.1 drawspeed with quick shots up? It looks like with a 2.9 I'd need about 70 haste (not accounting for latency) to reach 2.1 with quick shots up so I'm wondering if that's where the 80-100 haste numbers have been coming from?
Looking at WWS I averaged about 25% of the boss fights with a quickshots proc up on Sunday in Hyjal, not sure if that's higher than I should be expecting or normal. So going 0/20/41 I would give up that 25% quickshots bringing me to 3:2 (assuming I had sufficient haste) and 2% damage bonus, in exchange for gaining 1 more point in thrill of the hunt, one more rapid fire per 5 minutes (which realistically is probably less due to threat concerns), and master tactician. Master tactician it looks like would have been up about 37% of the fights (this is assuming it procs off all shots which I think it does, I'm not really back converting for the number of shots quick shots gained me though so realistically it would be less). So I guess the question is, is 10% crit for 37% of a fight and one more rapid fire more damage than 15% haste for 25% of a fight and 2% flat damage increase? It sounds like it would be but with 7/20/34 being so popular I'm wondering what I'm missing.
Thank you everyone for all the input you've been sending by the way. I'm continuting to integrate suggestions as I have time (and I did add in the leather items I had missed). Does anyone have more accurate numbers for the AP to dps conversion for hunters than what I gleaned with my inept skill at using Cheekys?
I'm still trying to figure out though when 7/20/34 would be better than 0/20/41 though. If I'm using the calculator properly, even at a 2.8 speed weapon, you would need 250 haste rating to get down to the 2.1 drawspeed. That doesn't seem realistic for any survival hunter without giving up a lot of stats. Yet I'm seeing a lot of high end survival hunters using 7/20/34. Are they basically aiming for the 2.1 drawspeed with quick shots up? It looks like with a 2.9 I'd need about 70 haste (not accounting for latency) to reach 2.1 with quick shots up so I'm wondering if that's where the 80-100 haste numbers have been coming from?
Looking at WWS I averaged about 25% of the boss fights with a quickshots proc up on Sunday in Hyjal, not sure if that's higher than I should be expecting or normal. So going 0/20/41 I would give up that 25% quickshots bringing me to 3:2 (assuming I had sufficient haste) and 2% damage bonus, in exchange for gaining 1 more point in thrill of the hunt, one more rapid fire per 5 minutes (which realistically is probably less due to threat concerns), and master tactician. Master tactician it looks like would have been up about 37% of the fights (this is assuming it procs off all shots which I think it does, I'm not really back converting for the number of shots quick shots gained me though so realistically it would be less). So I guess the question is, is 10% crit for 37% of a fight and one more rapid fire more damage than 15% haste for 25% of a fight and 2% flat damage increase? It sounds like it would be but with 7/20/34 being so popular I'm wondering what I'm missing.
Thank you everyone for all the input you've been sending by the way. I'm continuting to integrate suggestions as I have time (and I did add in the leather items I had missed). Does anyone have more accurate numbers for the AP to dps conversion for hunters than what I gleaned with my inept skill at using Cheekys?
How did you get the 25% up time for Quick Shots? I ask because I know WWS does not show individual procs.
I know it's not exact, I was just trying to get a rough idea, and on a 5 minute fight I was getting consistently around 7 quick shots showing up in WWS. I have noticed that although it is possible for quick shots to refresh while it's still up, I don't see it happen all that much so I'm not sure how statistically significant that data is. Does anyone have more accurate quick shots proc data? I did do the math on the # of normal shots and the chance of proccing and that puts it as an expected 10 procs when I got 7, which I guess means it's overlapping more than I thought it would. Although I would expect master tactician would suffer from the same problem.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Energy
You don't have to take off your DST. It's required for 7/20/34 but it's not bad for 0/20/41.
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WWS of a recent Brut kill.
Things to note:
- 1 person with drums
- 1 bloodlust
- 108 haste
- No DST
Other:
- No MS warrior
- No meteor slash damage
- Used Ilidan bow
From the number of shots fired you can see it is a very clean 3:2 steady:auto ratio.
To share my personal experience with steady chains, anecdotal as it may be - switching to 108 haste from 78 I used to have made steady chains a lot less of a problem. If they do happen I find a multi or an arcane solves the problem quickly (downranked if mana is a problem)
Last edited by Cable : Today at 4:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
I know it's not exact...
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Originally Posted by Energy
While that's very nice, you would probably do more damage as 0/20/41 and that's why I said it was required for 7/20/34.
What required means in this case is that having a DST makes it worth speccing out of 0/20/41 and into 7/20/34, not that you can't do respectable dps without a DST, just that your dps would probably be higher as 0/20/41 given you do not have a DST. |
In a scenario with more drummers I can see a spec with readiness being superior with no DST, however a good spec must do well in many different situations not just be awesome in a perfect one and be inferior the rest of the time.
Anyway, in short I believe that DST is not very important when choosing a spec but rather your attack speed / passive haste and many other factors, some not within our control. Like I said different things work for different people, there is no fixed "sweet spot" or requirement.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Where I agree that different things work for different people, i think thats mainly because of gear and raid setup.
What i ment by "sweet spot" is that there is a perfect balance in stats that is better than others.
By this i mean that all things being equal, "ideal pratical group setup" best gear possible to choose from ( i guess not inc legendary bow as its obviously the best), on a tank n spank fight, with the nature of a DPS class being maths ( not pure maths admitidly, as crit is not consistant, but using maths can predict what it should be) then there is a balance between crit - hit - AP and AS ( given that all use a 2:1/3:2 depending on haste) which will produce the most DPS while maintaining high agility for EW.
Now i could just go a plug numbers into cheeky's spread sheet, and while i think it is a very useful tool, it is very often not accurate, and so i post here to compare with others and to ask specific questions about there setup and gear choices, because as has been said, there is nothing that compares to live tests.
What i would like to see is people posting there best brutallus DPS with a wws report, thus showing there actual crit% on that fight, and there buffs. And then an armory link or list of there actual AP - hit - crit% - AS, so as to judge if they crit more than expected or less.
The deciding factor (i suppose) is weather or not they get 1 or more bloodlusts/heroisms, but this is not for the sake of e-peen flexing, it is purely for comparison, so as to see what is working best in a pure DPS setting.
What i ment by "sweet spot" is that there is a perfect balance in stats that is better than others.
By this i mean that all things being equal, "ideal pratical group setup" best gear possible to choose from ( i guess not inc legendary bow as its obviously the best), on a tank n spank fight, with the nature of a DPS class being maths ( not pure maths admitidly, as crit is not consistant, but using maths can predict what it should be) then there is a balance between crit - hit - AP and AS ( given that all use a 2:1/3:2 depending on haste) which will produce the most DPS while maintaining high agility for EW.
Now i could just go a plug numbers into cheeky's spread sheet, and while i think it is a very useful tool, it is very often not accurate, and so i post here to compare with others and to ask specific questions about there setup and gear choices, because as has been said, there is nothing that compares to live tests.
What i would like to see is people posting there best brutallus DPS with a wws report, thus showing there actual crit% on that fight, and there buffs. And then an armory link or list of there actual AP - hit - crit% - AS, so as to judge if they crit more than expected or less.
The deciding factor (i suppose) is weather or not they get 1 or more bloodlusts/heroisms, but this is not for the sake of e-peen flexing, it is purely for comparison, so as to see what is working best in a pure DPS setting.
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Originally Posted by nosleep
I only ask because i recently got my best personal DPS on Brutallus of 1998, Wow Web Stats 5/20/36 I had LoTP, and a resto shaman dropping agi. No heroism. group = war tank - pala tank - me - resto shammy - feral druid. Shammy put into melee group to pop heroism. Using wind serpent LB + KC Using the badge bow (even tho i have illidan and archi bows, i wanted to test this) and the haste cloak from ZA, and the crafted Sunwell haste ring.So 3.36% haste. Along with Madness of the Betrayer and Tsunami Talisman. 2456 AP unbuffed with hawk. I put this into the spreadsheet last night and it was a small improvement on my previous personal best 1868, but it still said 1914. Which is of course lower than i actually got, and my crit on the fight was lower than it should of been. My crit was 51% buffed, so on this fight my auto shot was 8% down and 4% down on steady shot. ----------------- Now i have the polearm, and will drop the badge bow for the Illidan / Archimonde bow. 81 haste, which gives me a nice 2.48 AS. The World of Warcraft Armory |
Last edited by nosleep : Today at 12:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Grektar
Thanks for helping me get on my way towards becoming the guilds survival hunter. Just one question, how come you don't use multi-shot? is it because it's mana inefficient? Secondly, do I just spam that macro even when buffed with Blood Lust and Rapid Fire?
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And one thing i forgot to mention is the changing up of the macro. As for the /castrandom part, you can put multi shot there, or even take it out so that you can just spam a 1:1 on the macro if necessary, manually weaving in arcane shots, which is pretty easy. This is a good idea for when you use Rapid Fire or maybe on Kaz'rogal when you dont have mana to spare for an arcane shot.
And no problem at all for the help, what else would i do when i'm bored at work? hehe
For anyone still on the fence about 5/20/36 (and having mana issues as i do running imp mark) I managed to pull 2108 dps on our guild first brutallus kill with only my drums and with running owl for screech. I think the spec is definitely a viable option for end game survival raiding.
WWS Loading...
WWS Loading...
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Originally Posted by Evanescent
For anyone still on the fence about 5/20/36 (and having mana issues as i do running imp mark) I managed to pull 2108 dps on our guild first brutallus kill with only my drums and with running owl for screech. I think the spec is definitely a viable option for end game survival raiding.
WWS Loading... |
Sorry I should've included in my previous post that I use Manito's 3:2 at all times, even when hasted. For mana issues I typically start fights with 2 daggers of bad mojo enchanted with 30 int. I blow through that free mana, then swap to my felspine. When I get low on mana and need to viper, I swap back to the daggers so my mana pool is larger, the percentage of mana is lower, and thus it regens better. When I'm really low i swap in the Black Bow as well.
Were you using haste potions on that? I can't seem to find them under the WWS but I don't know what they are listed as- can't just be "haste" because there's no way you used 11 of them Or is this one of those things where there's two abilities that get listed with the same name? Looks like those 2 pts from focused fire to thrill of the hunt gained you about 2400 mana on the Brutalis fight so I'm just curious about the benefit you gained.
In the 2.4.3 notes there's this tidbit: "Hunters: Using an instant ability after Steady Shot will no longer lock out auto shot."
I'm curious as to what that's going to affect if anything. It sounds potentially good but I haven't been on the PTR yet.
I'm curious as to what that's going to affect if anything. It sounds potentially good but I haven't been on the PTR yet.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
In the 2.4.3 notes there's this tidbit: "Hunters: Using an instant ability after Steady Shot will no longer lock out auto shot."
I'm curious as to what that's going to affect if anything. It sounds potentially good but I haven't been on the PTR yet. |
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
Were you using haste potions on that? I can't seem to find them under the WWS but I don't know what they are listed as- can't just be "haste" because there's no way you used 11 of them Or is this one of those things where there's two abilities that get listed with the same name? Looks like those 2 pts from focused fire to thrill of the hunt gained you about 2400 mana on the Brutalis fight so I'm just curious about the benefit you gained.
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DST procs and haste pots are both labeled "Haste" if I remember correctly
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Originally Posted by Bass
I think this means they fixed the Kill Command bug. "Lock out" seems like odd language to use if they were referring to pushing back the next auto shot.
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And the Bug Fix is where using an instant like AS or KC after a steady shot had a slight chance to "lock up" your auto shot, meaning auto shot wouldn't fire until you crit some other mob besides the one you locked up on i believe.
Thanks for the post about the 2 part macro earlier i was having trouble with referencing the second part of the macro.
Also i have some question about some pieces of gear. Here is my current armory link with my normal raiding gear:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I show that even though i am still using the Worgen claw necklace in from attunmen, it shows at a higher dps than
Telonicus's pendant of mayhem although i was told switch over to that. I also want to get the Thalassian wildercloak from Kael'thas but i am considering the haste cloak from the first chest in ZA i am still relatively new to SV and am still learning. if you guys have any suggestions from my armory then please tell me although i think i am getting most of it,
and yes i realize that Darkmoon card: Wrath is ok for trinket but it showed up as higher sustained DPS than the Bloodlust Brooch that i was using. i am also farther back in the line for the Madness of the Betrayer so any suggestions for a trinket besides DST which never drops would also be appreciated by you guys! thanks for any advice.
P.S. if it does not show the right trinkets the ones i raid with are the Tsunami Talisman and the Darkmoon Card: Wrath
Also i have some question about some pieces of gear. Here is my current armory link with my normal raiding gear:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I show that even though i am still using the Worgen claw necklace in from attunmen, it shows at a higher dps than
Telonicus's pendant of mayhem although i was told switch over to that. I also want to get the Thalassian wildercloak from Kael'thas but i am considering the haste cloak from the first chest in ZA i am still relatively new to SV and am still learning. if you guys have any suggestions from my armory then please tell me although i think i am getting most of it,
and yes i realize that Darkmoon card: Wrath is ok for trinket but it showed up as higher sustained DPS than the Bloodlust Brooch that i was using. i am also farther back in the line for the Madness of the Betrayer so any suggestions for a trinket besides DST which never drops would also be appreciated by you guys! thanks for any advice.
P.S. if it does not show the right trinkets the ones i raid with are the Tsunami Talisman and the Darkmoon Card: Wrath
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Originally Posted by Wyleindril
Thanks for the post about the 2 part macro earlier i was having trouble with referencing the second part of the macro.
Also i have some question about some pieces of gear. Here is my current armory link with my normal raiding gear: The World of Warcraft Armory I show that even though i am still using the Worgen claw necklace in from attunmen, it shows at a higher dps than Telonicus's pendant of mayhem although i was told switch over to that. I also want to get the Thalassian wildercloak from Kael'thas but i am considering the haste cloak from the first chest in ZA i am still relatively new to SV and am still learning. if you guys have any suggestions from my armory then please tell me although i think i am getting most of it, and yes i realize that Darkmoon card: Wrath is ok for trinket but it showed up as higher sustained DPS than the Bloodlust Brooch that i was using. i am also farther back in the line for the Madness of the Betrayer so any suggestions for a trinket besides DST which never drops would also be appreciated by you guys! thanks for any advice. P.S. if it does not show the right trinkets the ones i raid with are the Tsunami Talisman and the Darkmoon Card: Wrath |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Okay, so I'm still having trouble trying to determine what macro I should use and what spec. I'm 0/20/41 atm and my attack speed is 2.44. I am currently using 2 different macros, one with multi shot, and one without when there is CC.
(With Multi)
#showtooltip steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame)
(Without Multi)
#showtooltip steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame)
I didn't write this macro, I pulled it from some other forum. I don't understand what the /castsequence=2 means. Should I change it if my attack speed is 2.44 with a 2.9 speed bow? I am hoping someone here can give me a macro that I can spam that works best for me since I am unable to write my own. Also, should I be switching to a 3rd macro when I have Blood Lust and Rapid Fire?
(With Multi)
#showtooltip steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame)
(Without Multi)
#showtooltip steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame)
I didn't write this macro, I pulled it from some other forum. I don't understand what the /castsequence=2 means. Should I change it if my attack speed is 2.44 with a 2.9 speed bow? I am hoping someone here can give me a macro that I can spam that works best for me since I am unable to write my own. Also, should I be switching to a 3rd macro when I have Blood Lust and Rapid Fire?
Last edited by Grektar : 06/19/08 at 2:29 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well i know there are other pieces for hit rating considering the insidious bands from teron and the quickstriders moccasins. but i was wondering because of the haste on the bracers i have now would the hit be worth the haste lost? i was thinking of keeping the worgen necklace and going with the Cloak of Fiends for the extra haste and the Moccasins to replace the hit rating from the Drape itself. And dont forget the 10 hit rating off of the tsunami
My class leader also told me i dont know if i think the same but i would need to either get the arch bow or the illidan bow for increase in my dps and the loss of agi from the crossbow is minimal compared to the personal dps i wold be from the bow.
My class leader also told me i dont know if i think the same but i would need to either get the arch bow or the illidan bow for increase in my dps and the loss of agi from the crossbow is minimal compared to the personal dps i wold be from the bow.
Last edited by Wyleindril : 06/19/08 at 1:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Wyleindril
Well i know there are other pieces for hit rating considering the insidious bands from teron and the quickstriders moccasins. but i was wondering because of the haste on the bracers i have now would the hit be worth the haste lost? i was thinking of keeping the worgen necklace and going with the Cloak of Fiends for the extra haste and the Moccasins to replace the hit rating from the Drape itself. And dont forget the 10 hit rating off of the tsunami
My class leader also told me i dont know if i think the same but i would need to either get the arch bow or the illidan bow for increase in my dps and the loss of agi from the crossbow is minimal compared to the personal dps i wold be from the bow. |
Bristleblitz and Black Bow are both pretty nice upgrades over Legionkiller, especially once you get your 4th piece of T6 and start shooting nothing but steady shots and autos. The added weapon damage should more then make up for the lost agility, not even considering the other stats.
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Originally Posted by Final_Rest
And yeah, i don't think i'll be switching to a 1:1 ever as survival, 400 haste is a bit much, A little over 300 is serpents swiftness and i still need quite a bit even then so...
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What I meant is when you are over 400 (about 25.4%) temporary haste effects. A Haste Potion is 400 haste. Rapid Fire is 600+, and Bloodlust/Heroism is above 400 haste as well. Whenever you are under any of those effects, you should switch to the 1:1 rotation to maximize your DPS. More to come later.
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo-OG
The Insidious Bands have a socket on them which should go a long way towards making up for the lost haste. The Cloak of Fiends is pretty crazy good, so I would suspect that it would be worth the loss from the Drape, though the Quickstrider Moccasins would certainly make up for the hit you would lose.
Bristleblitz and Black Bow are both pretty nice upgrades over Legionkiller, especially once you get your 4th piece of T6 and start shooting nothing but steady shots and autos. The added weapon damage should more then make up for the lost agility, not even considering the other stats. |
Well i will not have 4 pc t6 until we down kal for the bracers depending on what is going on. The t6 bracers do not have hit on them so i dont want to take a piece of gear wit hit on them like the insidious bands and become dependant on that. I am crafting the chest piece with the haste on it. and with the bow stiched leggings i am wearing right now its amazing in cheekys. But as i said i am not getting the t6 chest piece for 4 piece. So with that said should i use a 1:1:5 (hope i did that right >.>) or stay as a 2:1 rotation?
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Originally Posted by Grektar
Thanks for helping me get on my way towards becoming the guilds survival hunter. Just one question, how come you don't use multi-shot? is it because it's mana inefficient? Secondly, do I just spam that macro even when buffed with Blood Lust and Rapid Fire?
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Concerning specs, there are many various specs that work well and which one you use depends on your pereferences, the raids needs, your gear, your typical buffs, your latency and FPS, etc. What is usually agreed upon though is that every SV hunter should have at least 20 talents in MM with them being Lethal Shots, IHM or Eff, GftT, Aimed Shot, and Rapid Killing. In addition you should have at least 32 points in SV tree so you can get at least 2/3 EW (I would suggest that you currently get at least 3/3). That leaves 9 points to "play with". The IAotH builds typically do not work out best unless you have the T6 4-set bonus and/or operate under a lot of haste. I would probably not suggest using it ATM. I personally prefer the full SV build with MT and Readiness, which from my analyses, provides ME with the best DPS. Others like going into a barrage build like you had, and yet others like IAS.
Personally, I find the IAS build to be the worse, although it works well for many folks. You spend 5 points to be able to accomplish something with just arcane shot that you can already do with both arcane shot and multishot. Sure it allows you to keep a tight 1:1.5 rotation up on trash when there is CC, but that is designing your rotation for trash and not for bosses, and most bosses you can use multishot. And although multishot does cost more mana than arcane shot, it is a more damage efficient shot than arcane shot. For me without any barrage skills, multishot has 9.93 DPM while arcane has 7.89. The difference is even greater with barrage skills. In addition, the IAS rotations do not get as much benefits from haste. I personally prefer to spend those points somewhere else, but it is still a good build. I suggest trying some of them out yourself and seeing which works best for you. (BTW.. I see that you are 0/20/41 ATM, since you have 5/5 in MT, I would seriously suggest dropping one in TotH to get Readiness for its great utility that helps both yours and the raids DPSand your survivability - would need IFD as much since can have extra FDs with this skill)
Concerning IHM, in many ways it does make sense for a BM hunter to have the talent since they have less mana problems and their rotations are more friendly to refreshing the mark; however, I am a proponent of SV hunters having it. I like it since it allows me the full task of buffing the melee with both IHM and EW. In cases where the melee and range are on split targets, I consider myself part of the melee group and keep both IHM and EW up on their targets. At lower crit levels, you may need efficiency instead to help with mana, but at higher crit levels, it is easier to give up efficiency since TotH provides so much more mana. In addition, since you no longer have IAotH, you get a lot less of a penalty for using Aspect of the Viper when needed.
Concerning the /castrandom macro, for a IAS build with just arcane shot in the castrandom, it is a very good macro and will implement the 1:1.5 rotation unhasted. When hasted, it does provide flexibility in inserting additional auto-steadies between the arcanes while they are still on CD. For the version of the macro with multishot, it is still a decent macro, but it does not correctly implement the 1:1.5 rotation. That rotation requires at least 2 auto-steadies between specials, but this macro does not prevent specials after back-to-back auto-steadies. A benefit though is that it is flexible with haste while a /castsequence macro that enforces the true 1:1.5 rotation is not. Try some different ones out and see what works best for you. I prefer using a 1:1 macro and then manually casting my specials.
The macros you list are fine per the caveats I listed above. The reset=2 means that if you haven't pushed the button for 2 seconds, it will start over from the beginning. Since your slowest cast is 1.5s, you should not reset the rotation in the middle unless you are slow pressing the buttons or get 0.5s pushback. You may want to consider making the number a little larger, like 3.
Pre-End Game Survival Hunter Shot Rotation Analysis Part I
For my own information, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with my various trinkets under various haste effects. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that are not at end-game gear yet (do not have the T6 4-set bonus).
This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization; however, I have observed many of these results in actual raids. If I have time, I may try to perform the analysis (partially of course) in game as well.
Background and constraints
1) My ranged weapon is the badge crossbow, [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] since that is the best ranged weapon I have. Thus, this analysis applies for 2.8 base weapon speed with a 2.43 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. The results can be extrapolated for 2.9 and 3.0 base weapon speeds by realizing you need about 60 and 120 haste, respectively, to get to starting point of this analysis.
2)Tried out 3 trinket sets, which are my best trinkets. These are (unfortunately I never won [Tsunami Talisman]):
a. [Berserker's Call] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller]
b. [Berserker's Call] and [Bloodlust Brooch]
c. [Berserker's Call] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
Note that the analysis assumes using [Bloodlust Brooch] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical.
3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear.
4) Used my talents. I have a 0/20/41 Readiness spec with 2/3 EW and 3/3 TotH.
5) Used the raid buffs that I can count on. The pertinent ones of these are Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Blessing of Wisdom, Arcane Brilliance, Gift of the Wild, agility food, pet food, Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, and two Superior Mana Oils. Hence, the analysis does not include Leader of the Pact or Grace of Air since I rarely get either. With this set of buffs, the base agility is 1111 (277.75 EW AP). It also includes the boss debuffs of 5 Sunders and Curse of Shadows.
6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet.
7) Performed the analysis on the following rotations:
a. 1:1.5 (with both arcane shot and multishot)
b. 1:1.X (with both arcane shot and multishot)
c. 2:1
d. 3:2
e. 1:1
For those unfamiliar with the 1:1.X, it is similar to the 1:1.5 in that it does a base of “auto-steady shot”s with using arcane shot and multishot when they are available with at least two “auto-steady shot”s between the specials. With no haste and a slower base weapon speed, this rotation is a 1:1.5 rotation. As haste is increased, the rotation tightens until it is limited by the cooldowns on the specials. As haste continues to increase deadtime starts to exist before the specials such that eventually as haste increases, an additional “auto-steady shot” can be placed before one of the specials pushing that special out some. As haste continues, this new rotation tightens up, then gets some deadtime before the other special, and then inserts another “auto-steady shot” before that special. As haste continues to increase, more “auto-steady shot”s are placed between the specials. Note that the macros with /castrandom multishot, arcane shot is one way of pseudo implementing this rotation, although the macro does not enforce the correct number of “auto-steady shot”s between the specials, but it does insert additional “auto-steady shot”s between them as haste is increased.
8) Performed the analysis starting at 0 haste rating then adding haste rating in steps of 25. In regions where the increase in DPS was “linear”, haste rating was increased in steps of 100 until a non-linear region was encountered, in which case worked backwards to find where the regions changed.
9) For each combination, I recorded DPS, shots per second (SPS), and EW uptime. Note that since [Hourglass of the Unraveller] affects EW uptime via the additional critical strike chance and that the other two trinkets do not, it provides higher EW uptime than the other two do, which both have the same EW uptime.
10) For converting EW AP into raid DPS, I use a factor of 2. This is derived using a 0.25 average coefficient for converting AP to effective DPS and assuming 8 physical DPS in the raid (0.25 * 8 = 2).
11) The baseline rotation for all comparison will be the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus. It is also the [Berserker's Call] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller] trinket combination since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides:
DPS: 1569.68
SPS: 0.98
EW Uptime: 92.44% (256.75 average EW AP or 513.50 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2083.18
For my own information, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with my various trinkets under various haste effects. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that are not at end-game gear yet (do not have the T6 4-set bonus).
This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization; however, I have observed many of these results in actual raids. If I have time, I may try to perform the analysis (partially of course) in game as well.
Background and constraints
1) My ranged weapon is the badge crossbow, [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] since that is the best ranged weapon I have. Thus, this analysis applies for 2.8 base weapon speed with a 2.43 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. The results can be extrapolated for 2.9 and 3.0 base weapon speeds by realizing you need about 60 and 120 haste, respectively, to get to starting point of this analysis.
2)Tried out 3 trinket sets, which are my best trinkets. These are (unfortunately I never won [Tsunami Talisman]):
a. [Berserker's Call] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller]
b. [Berserker's Call] and [Bloodlust Brooch]
c. [Berserker's Call] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
Note that the analysis assumes using [Bloodlust Brooch] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical.
3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear.
4) Used my talents. I have a 0/20/41 Readiness spec with 2/3 EW and 3/3 TotH.
5) Used the raid buffs that I can count on. The pertinent ones of these are Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Blessing of Wisdom, Arcane Brilliance, Gift of the Wild, agility food, pet food, Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, and two Superior Mana Oils. Hence, the analysis does not include Leader of the Pact or Grace of Air since I rarely get either. With this set of buffs, the base agility is 1111 (277.75 EW AP). It also includes the boss debuffs of 5 Sunders and Curse of Shadows.
6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet.
7) Performed the analysis on the following rotations:
a. 1:1.5 (with both arcane shot and multishot)
b. 1:1.X (with both arcane shot and multishot)
c. 2:1
d. 3:2
e. 1:1
For those unfamiliar with the 1:1.X, it is similar to the 1:1.5 in that it does a base of “auto-steady shot”s with using arcane shot and multishot when they are available with at least two “auto-steady shot”s between the specials. With no haste and a slower base weapon speed, this rotation is a 1:1.5 rotation. As haste is increased, the rotation tightens until it is limited by the cooldowns on the specials. As haste continues to increase deadtime starts to exist before the specials such that eventually as haste increases, an additional “auto-steady shot” can be placed before one of the specials pushing that special out some. As haste continues, this new rotation tightens up, then gets some deadtime before the other special, and then inserts another “auto-steady shot” before that special. As haste continues to increase, more “auto-steady shot”s are placed between the specials. Note that the macros with /castrandom multishot, arcane shot is one way of pseudo implementing this rotation, although the macro does not enforce the correct number of “auto-steady shot”s between the specials, but it does insert additional “auto-steady shot”s between them as haste is increased.
8) Performed the analysis starting at 0 haste rating then adding haste rating in steps of 25. In regions where the increase in DPS was “linear”, haste rating was increased in steps of 100 until a non-linear region was encountered, in which case worked backwards to find where the regions changed.
9) For each combination, I recorded DPS, shots per second (SPS), and EW uptime. Note that since [Hourglass of the Unraveller] affects EW uptime via the additional critical strike chance and that the other two trinkets do not, it provides higher EW uptime than the other two do, which both have the same EW uptime.
10) For converting EW AP into raid DPS, I use a factor of 2. This is derived using a 0.25 average coefficient for converting AP to effective DPS and assuming 8 physical DPS in the raid (0.25 * 8 = 2).
11) The baseline rotation for all comparison will be the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus. It is also the [Berserker's Call] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller] trinket combination since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides:
DPS: 1569.68
SPS: 0.98
EW Uptime: 92.44% (256.75 average EW AP or 513.50 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2083.18
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Originally Posted by Wyleindril
Well i will not have 4 pc t6 until we down kal for the bracers depending on what is going on. The t6 bracers do not have hit on them so i dont want to take a piece of gear wit hit on them like the insidious bands and become dependant on that. I am crafting the chest piece with the haste on it. and with the bow stiched leggings i am wearing right now its amazing in cheekys. But as i said i am not getting the t6 chest piece for 4 piece. So with that said should i use a 1:1:5 (hope i did that right >.>) or stay as a 2:1 rotation?
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Pre-End Game Survival Hunter Shot Rotation Analysis Part II
Results and Observations
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the b trinket group provided the most DPS at 1571.52 (+1.84) but with less EW uptime of 91.69 (-0.75% => -2.08 EW AP => -4.16 raid DPS). Thus, the base a trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 2.32 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed), which results in a 2.19 weapon speed and 1.01 SPS. At this point the rotation becomes tight and any additional haste provides no benefit to the rotation. At this haste cap, the a trinket set provides 1605.32 DPS and 92.95 EW Uptime, resulting in +35.64 personal DPS, +2.83 raid DPS from EW, and +38.47 overall raid DPS. The b trinket set still provides a little more personal DPS of about +1.98 but still has about -0.72 EW uptime resulting in about -2.01 reduction in overall raid DPS.
- Overall for this rotation, the a trinket set is the best theoretically.
1.1.X rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, this rotation is the same as the 1:1.5 except that it already has an extra “auto-steady shot” before the second special. The a trinket set performs a little worse than with the 1:1.5. It has 1553.96 (-15.92) DPS, same SPS of 0.98, and a slightly worse EW uptime of 92.33 (-0.11). This results in -16.53 raid DPS. Thus, unhasted, this rotation is worse than the 1:1.5.
- However, with just a little bit of haste, this rotation catches up with the 1:1.5. At just 25 HR, it has only -1.47 personal DPS but +0.1 EW uptime for only -0.91 overall raid DPS. Another HR or 2 and it is better than the 1:1.5.
- At 75 HR, the current version of this rotation becomes tight. It provides +21.19 personal DPS, +0.02 SPS, and +0.40 EW uptime for +23.41 overall raid DPS.
- At about 76 HR, this rotation gets to a switch point and inserts an additional “auto-steady shot” before the first special. At this point a large drop in DPS occurs. At the 80 HR of the haste drums, it provides -34.42 DPS and has -0.34 EW uptime for -35.31 overall raid DPS.
- However, by about 135 haste, it catches back up to the 1:1.5 rotation in both DPS and EW uptime (the EW uptime catches up a little sooner though due to slightly higher SPS).
- At the about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed) that the 1:1.5 rotation becomes tight and doesn’t improve with haste anymore, this rotation has 1630.27 (+24.95) DPS and 93.45 (+0.50) EW uptime, resulting in +27.72 DPS over the 1:1.5 rotation with the same haste.
- As haste is increased, this rotation continues to general increase in both DPS and EW uptime with temporary decreases in both when the rotation reconfigures by adding in additional “auto-steady shot”s. Between 175 and 300 haste, DPS stays increase from 1630.27 to 1642.2, and EW uptime increases from 93.45 to 93.60 for modest gains.
- At the next rotation switch around 324 haste, the DPS stays between 1694 and 1710 haste until the next major rotation change around 510 haste at which point DPS varies between 1720 and 1779 DPS, and EW uptime varies between 94.78 and 95.40 until the final switch around 700 haste.
- After about 700 haste, the rotation only have minor increases in DPS of less than 1.0 per 25 haste added with very small gains in EW uptime as well as you really cant add anymore “auto-steady shot”s and still have arcane shots and multishots still in the rotation.
- During the whole range of haste, trinket set b consistently outperformed trinket set a in DPS with the amount difference increasing as haste increased from about 2 DPS to 5 DPS. On the other hand, the EW uptime was better for set a, but the difference decreased from about 0.8 when unhasted to about 0.4 at 1000 haste. Thus, with this rotation, trinket set b is slightly better, but only if you use the brooch every time it is off cooldown. If you do not use it every time it is off cooldown, then trinket set a is better.
- The DPS with trinket set c starts roughly in between sets a and b (roughly 1 DPS less than b). However, as SPS increases with the rotation, the DPS from trinket set c catches up to set b. At the about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed), the SPS goes above 1.03 and trinket set c start to outperform trinket set b in DPS. By 700 haste and staying roughly the same to 1000 haste, trinket set c does about +7 DPS over set b and +11 over set c. The reason for this improvement is that more steady shots are being performed.
- For this rotation, trinket set c is the winner. At 0 haste it is about a wash with set a and within 1 DPS of set b. After about 50 haste, it is better than set a over the rest of the range, and is better than set b after about 175 haste.
2:1
- Unhasted, this rotation does between -100 and -110 DPS across all 3 trinket sets compared to the 1:1.5.
- This rotation is only mildly affected by haste throughout the whole range of haste. It increases throughout the whole haste range of 0 to 1000 haste by only 40 DPS from 1470 to 1510 for the best trinket set.
- This rotation underperforms the 1:1.5 over its complete range of haste. When the 1:1.5 tops out at 175 haste, it is doing +124 DPS over the 2:1, and at 1000 haste, the 2:1 is still 95 DPS behind the 1:1.5.
- EW Uptime is generally always greater than 1% more over the whole haste range with the 1:1.5 than with the 2:1.
- Conclusion is that without any 4-set bonus, the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.5 rotation and should never be used.
- Trinket set c consistently outperforms the other 2 trinket sets by between 8-11 DPS over the complete range due to the large number of steady shots.
3:2:
- As with the 2:1 rotation, the best trinket set for the 3:2 throughout the whole range of haste is set c due to the large number of steady shots. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1422.58 (-147) personal DPS with 89.63% (-2.81) EW uptime, resulting in -155 DPS compared to the 1:1.5.
- As haste increases, the DPS and EW uptime of this rotation increases steadily until about 250 haste (2.10 weapon speed). At this point, the rotation does 1605.33 DPS (almost exactly the same as the 1:1.5) with 92.67% (-0.38) EW uptime, resulting in still a small loss in overall raid DPS relative to the 1:1.5. Over the rest of the haste range from 250 haste to 1000 haste, this rotation improves only slightly to about 1620 (+15) DPS with 92.87% (-0.08) EW uptime.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides very little benefit over the 1:1.5. It should not be used at all below 250 haste and even at 1000 haste the benefit is only about 14 DPS.
- Relative to the 1:1.X rotation, this rotation starts -131 DPS lower unhasted with -2.7% EW uptime for about -146 overall raid DPS. At 250 haste when the 3:2 starts making lesser gains, it is still has -32 personal DPS and -0.9 EW uptime for -37 overall raid DPS. After this point it starts to fall farther behind the 1:1.X rotation. At around the haste rating of Rapid Fire, it is about -150 personal DPS and -2.5% EW uptime for -164 overall raid DPS, with the difference continuing to grow up to 1000 haste rating.
1:1:
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 throughout most of the range of haste is set c due to the large number of steady shots. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set. Note that at 0 haste, it trails set a by about 5 overall DPS (mostly from better EW uptime) and catches it around 250 haste. Since this rotation underperforms the 1:1.5 in this range that set a is better and would not be used then, set c is the best since it performs better over the pertinent haste ranges.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1304 (-266) DPS with 87.13 (-5.31) EW uptime for -295 over raid DPS compared to the 1:1.5.
- The 1:1 does not outperform the 1:1.5 until just over 400 haste.
- Between 400 and 725 haste, the 1:1 rotation continues to perform better and better with doing 1827 (+222) DPS and 95.27 (+2.32) EW uptime for +235 overall raid DPS at 725 haste.
- After 725 haste, this rotation tightens up and only gains about 4 DPS and 0.18% EW uptime over the last 250 haste.
- Thus, compared to the 1:1.5 rotation, the 1:1 shouldn’t be switched to for haste effects up to just over 400 haste (don’t switch for a haste potion use alone). When under greater than 400 haste, switch to the 1:1.
- This rotation does not outperform the 1:1.X rotation until about 575 haste, so if you are performing the 1:1.X rotation, you shouldn’t switch to the 1:1 until you have haste effects greater than 575 haste.
- Both the 1:1 and 1:1.X rotations “stall out” at about the same haste rating of 725.
- At 1000 haste, the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.X rotation by 57.6 personal DPS with about the same EW uptime so that the overall raid DPS difference is 57.6.
Results and Observations
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the b trinket group provided the most DPS at 1571.52 (+1.84) but with less EW uptime of 91.69 (-0.75% => -2.08 EW AP => -4.16 raid DPS). Thus, the base a trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 2.32 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed), which results in a 2.19 weapon speed and 1.01 SPS. At this point the rotation becomes tight and any additional haste provides no benefit to the rotation. At this haste cap, the a trinket set provides 1605.32 DPS and 92.95 EW Uptime, resulting in +35.64 personal DPS, +2.83 raid DPS from EW, and +38.47 overall raid DPS. The b trinket set still provides a little more personal DPS of about +1.98 but still has about -0.72 EW uptime resulting in about -2.01 reduction in overall raid DPS.
- Overall for this rotation, the a trinket set is the best theoretically.
1.1.X rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, this rotation is the same as the 1:1.5 except that it already has an extra “auto-steady shot” before the second special. The a trinket set performs a little worse than with the 1:1.5. It has 1553.96 (-15.92) DPS, same SPS of 0.98, and a slightly worse EW uptime of 92.33 (-0.11). This results in -16.53 raid DPS. Thus, unhasted, this rotation is worse than the 1:1.5.
- However, with just a little bit of haste, this rotation catches up with the 1:1.5. At just 25 HR, it has only -1.47 personal DPS but +0.1 EW uptime for only -0.91 overall raid DPS. Another HR or 2 and it is better than the 1:1.5.
- At 75 HR, the current version of this rotation becomes tight. It provides +21.19 personal DPS, +0.02 SPS, and +0.40 EW uptime for +23.41 overall raid DPS.
- At about 76 HR, this rotation gets to a switch point and inserts an additional “auto-steady shot” before the first special. At this point a large drop in DPS occurs. At the 80 HR of the haste drums, it provides -34.42 DPS and has -0.34 EW uptime for -35.31 overall raid DPS.
- However, by about 135 haste, it catches back up to the 1:1.5 rotation in both DPS and EW uptime (the EW uptime catches up a little sooner though due to slightly higher SPS).
- At the about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed) that the 1:1.5 rotation becomes tight and doesn’t improve with haste anymore, this rotation has 1630.27 (+24.95) DPS and 93.45 (+0.50) EW uptime, resulting in +27.72 DPS over the 1:1.5 rotation with the same haste.
- As haste is increased, this rotation continues to general increase in both DPS and EW uptime with temporary decreases in both when the rotation reconfigures by adding in additional “auto-steady shot”s. Between 175 and 300 haste, DPS stays increase from 1630.27 to 1642.2, and EW uptime increases from 93.45 to 93.60 for modest gains.
- At the next rotation switch around 324 haste, the DPS stays between 1694 and 1710 haste until the next major rotation change around 510 haste at which point DPS varies between 1720 and 1779 DPS, and EW uptime varies between 94.78 and 95.40 until the final switch around 700 haste.
- After about 700 haste, the rotation only have minor increases in DPS of less than 1.0 per 25 haste added with very small gains in EW uptime as well as you really cant add anymore “auto-steady shot”s and still have arcane shots and multishots still in the rotation.
- During the whole range of haste, trinket set b consistently outperformed trinket set a in DPS with the amount difference increasing as haste increased from about 2 DPS to 5 DPS. On the other hand, the EW uptime was better for set a, but the difference decreased from about 0.8 when unhasted to about 0.4 at 1000 haste. Thus, with this rotation, trinket set b is slightly better, but only if you use the brooch every time it is off cooldown. If you do not use it every time it is off cooldown, then trinket set a is better.
- The DPS with trinket set c starts roughly in between sets a and b (roughly 1 DPS less than b). However, as SPS increases with the rotation, the DPS from trinket set c catches up to set b. At the about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed), the SPS goes above 1.03 and trinket set c start to outperform trinket set b in DPS. By 700 haste and staying roughly the same to 1000 haste, trinket set c does about +7 DPS over set b and +11 over set c. The reason for this improvement is that more steady shots are being performed.
- For this rotation, trinket set c is the winner. At 0 haste it is about a wash with set a and within 1 DPS of set b. After about 50 haste, it is better than set a over the rest of the range, and is better than set b after about 175 haste.
2:1
- Unhasted, this rotation does between -100 and -110 DPS across all 3 trinket sets compared to the 1:1.5.
- This rotation is only mildly affected by haste throughout the whole range of haste. It increases throughout the whole haste range of 0 to 1000 haste by only 40 DPS from 1470 to 1510 for the best trinket set.
- This rotation underperforms the 1:1.5 over its complete range of haste. When the 1:1.5 tops out at 175 haste, it is doing +124 DPS over the 2:1, and at 1000 haste, the 2:1 is still 95 DPS behind the 1:1.5.
- EW Uptime is generally always greater than 1% more over the whole haste range with the 1:1.5 than with the 2:1.
- Conclusion is that without any 4-set bonus, the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.5 rotation and should never be used.
- Trinket set c consistently outperforms the other 2 trinket sets by between 8-11 DPS over the complete range due to the large number of steady shots.
3:2:
- As with the 2:1 rotation, the best trinket set for the 3:2 throughout the whole range of haste is set c due to the large number of steady shots. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1422.58 (-147) personal DPS with 89.63% (-2.81) EW uptime, resulting in -155 DPS compared to the 1:1.5.
- As haste increases, the DPS and EW uptime of this rotation increases steadily until about 250 haste (2.10 weapon speed). At this point, the rotation does 1605.33 DPS (almost exactly the same as the 1:1.5) with 92.67% (-0.38) EW uptime, resulting in still a small loss in overall raid DPS relative to the 1:1.5. Over the rest of the haste range from 250 haste to 1000 haste, this rotation improves only slightly to about 1620 (+15) DPS with 92.87% (-0.08) EW uptime.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides very little benefit over the 1:1.5. It should not be used at all below 250 haste and even at 1000 haste the benefit is only about 14 DPS.
- Relative to the 1:1.X rotation, this rotation starts -131 DPS lower unhasted with -2.7% EW uptime for about -146 overall raid DPS. At 250 haste when the 3:2 starts making lesser gains, it is still has -32 personal DPS and -0.9 EW uptime for -37 overall raid DPS. After this point it starts to fall farther behind the 1:1.X rotation. At around the haste rating of Rapid Fire, it is about -150 personal DPS and -2.5% EW uptime for -164 overall raid DPS, with the difference continuing to grow up to 1000 haste rating.
1:1:
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 throughout most of the range of haste is set c due to the large number of steady shots. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set. Note that at 0 haste, it trails set a by about 5 overall DPS (mostly from better EW uptime) and catches it around 250 haste. Since this rotation underperforms the 1:1.5 in this range that set a is better and would not be used then, set c is the best since it performs better over the pertinent haste ranges.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1304 (-266) DPS with 87.13 (-5.31) EW uptime for -295 over raid DPS compared to the 1:1.5.
- The 1:1 does not outperform the 1:1.5 until just over 400 haste.
- Between 400 and 725 haste, the 1:1 rotation continues to perform better and better with doing 1827 (+222) DPS and 95.27 (+2.32) EW uptime for +235 overall raid DPS at 725 haste.
- After 725 haste, this rotation tightens up and only gains about 4 DPS and 0.18% EW uptime over the last 250 haste.
- Thus, compared to the 1:1.5 rotation, the 1:1 shouldn’t be switched to for haste effects up to just over 400 haste (don’t switch for a haste potion use alone). When under greater than 400 haste, switch to the 1:1.
- This rotation does not outperform the 1:1.X rotation until about 575 haste, so if you are performing the 1:1.X rotation, you shouldn’t switch to the 1:1 until you have haste effects greater than 575 haste.
- Both the 1:1 and 1:1.X rotations “stall out” at about the same haste rating of 725.
- At 1000 haste, the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.X rotation by 57.6 personal DPS with about the same EW uptime so that the overall raid DPS difference is 57.6.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo-OG
I would test on farm content or even on Dr. Boom to be sure, but from what I understand the two-part 3:2 macro works best on a 7/20/34 build with 80+ gear haste and automatically scales to whatever shot rotation is appropriate when temporary haste buffs proc, such as IAotH/Bloodlust/Heroism/etc. I've read that plain steady/auto rotations of some form are best no matter what, but have found that 1.5:1 produced better results for me. Then again, my gear is substantially different from yours, so I would test to make sure.
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Last edited by Wyleindril : 06/19/08 at 6:39 PM.
Pre-End Game Survival Hunter Shot Rotation Analysis Part III (final)
Recommendation
The results of this analysis leads me to two recommendations.
The first somewhat follows conventional wisdom. Use the 1:1.5 rotation until around 425 haste. Then switch to the 1:1 with haste effects above 425. Avoid the 2:1 rotation since it is never better than the 1:1.5. Suggest avoiding the 3:2 rotation since it is always inferior to the 1:1.5 under 425 haste and the 1:1 over 425 haste, although if you do the 3:2 between 250 and 425 haste, the loss in DPS from using the better rotation is relatively small (about -20 DPS at most). In regards to trinkets, suggest using the a trinket set if the large majority of your DPS uptime is unhasted or below 425 haste (drums alone or haste potion alone). However, if you operate a large portion of your DPS uptime with haste above 425, then trinket set c will probably be a little better. However, the DPS difference between the two trinket sets is relatively small (about 12 DPS at the maximum), so either option is good.
An improvement can be obtained to the above recommendation by obtaining some passive haste (as long as the haste items do not hurt your other stats much). Just getting over 25 passive haste will not only make your unhasted rotation a little better DPS-wise, but it will also make switching to the 1:1 under haste potions alone provide a DPS boost. Adding more passive haste beyond that (as long as stats are not hurt) will result in even more DPS unhasted and with the 1:1 rotation providing more DPS under the various large haste effects. For the amount of passive haste you have, switch to the 1:1 at haste effects at 425 - passive haste.
The second recommendation is a little less conventional. Use the 1:1.X rotation instead of the 1:1.5. The 1:1.X will be used until about 575 haste at which point switch to the 1:1 rotation. Although unhasted, the 1:1.X performs slightly worse than the 1:1.5 rotation, that loss in unhasted DPS should be more than be made up for with the much larger additional DPS when under haste effects between 50 and 575 haste. The situation can be improved on a little more by adding at least about 27 passive haste (as long as you do not lose too much other stats with swapping in the haste item). Doing so results in the 1:1.X rotation outperforming the 1:1.5 rotation over the complete range, including when unhasted. It also means that you should switch over to the 1:1 a little sooner (575 – passive haste rating). Either trinket set is fine to use with this scheme as well. If you are unhasted most of your DPS uptime, I would recommend trinket set a; however, if you are under haste effects a good portion of your DPS uptime, then trinket set c is best due to doing a larger proportion of steady shots.
Recommendation
The results of this analysis leads me to two recommendations.
The first somewhat follows conventional wisdom. Use the 1:1.5 rotation until around 425 haste. Then switch to the 1:1 with haste effects above 425. Avoid the 2:1 rotation since it is never better than the 1:1.5. Suggest avoiding the 3:2 rotation since it is always inferior to the 1:1.5 under 425 haste and the 1:1 over 425 haste, although if you do the 3:2 between 250 and 425 haste, the loss in DPS from using the better rotation is relatively small (about -20 DPS at most). In regards to trinkets, suggest using the a trinket set if the large majority of your DPS uptime is unhasted or below 425 haste (drums alone or haste potion alone). However, if you operate a large portion of your DPS uptime with haste above 425, then trinket set c will probably be a little better. However, the DPS difference between the two trinket sets is relatively small (about 12 DPS at the maximum), so either option is good.
An improvement can be obtained to the above recommendation by obtaining some passive haste (as long as the haste items do not hurt your other stats much). Just getting over 25 passive haste will not only make your unhasted rotation a little better DPS-wise, but it will also make switching to the 1:1 under haste potions alone provide a DPS boost. Adding more passive haste beyond that (as long as stats are not hurt) will result in even more DPS unhasted and with the 1:1 rotation providing more DPS under the various large haste effects. For the amount of passive haste you have, switch to the 1:1 at haste effects at 425 - passive haste.
The second recommendation is a little less conventional. Use the 1:1.X rotation instead of the 1:1.5. The 1:1.X will be used until about 575 haste at which point switch to the 1:1 rotation. Although unhasted, the 1:1.X performs slightly worse than the 1:1.5 rotation, that loss in unhasted DPS should be more than be made up for with the much larger additional DPS when under haste effects between 50 and 575 haste. The situation can be improved on a little more by adding at least about 27 passive haste (as long as you do not lose too much other stats with swapping in the haste item). Doing so results in the 1:1.X rotation outperforming the 1:1.5 rotation over the complete range, including when unhasted. It also means that you should switch over to the 1:1 a little sooner (575 – passive haste rating). Either trinket set is fine to use with this scheme as well. If you are unhasted most of your DPS uptime, I would recommend trinket set a; however, if you are under haste effects a good portion of your DPS uptime, then trinket set c is best due to doing a larger proportion of steady shots.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Wow, thank you for giving me such an elaborate explanation, that really helped. Seriously, that was amazing. I am just slightly concerned about whether or not I should use Multi-Shot. You said it's less mana efficient, but you clearly stated it does more dps than arcane shot. Would you recommend that i go 3/3 Barrage and 2/5 MT? And would that make my macro I posted with both arcane shot and multi shot good for boss fights? Or, should I spec 0/20/41 and go for readiness and use the macro I posted above without multi shot? If you could provide me with the macros you use that would be awesome because out attack speeds are pretty much identical. You're at 2.43 and I'm at 2.44
Last edited by Grektar : 06/19/08 at 6:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wyleindril
Also i have some question about some pieces of gear.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
Get a [Necklace of the Deep] with 2 [Delicate Crimson Spinel]s. It will last you till [Clutch of Demise] (assuming you're making use of the haste, which you would be if you're killing Brutallus).
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With all that said if i still took the [Cloak of Fiends] then i would lose the 17 hit rating from the [Drape of the Dark Reavers] and replaced the [Worgen Claw Necklace] with the [Necklace of the Deep]. this would force me to take the [Insidious Bands] and [Quickstrider Moccasins] together to make up the hit rating loss. This is something that i dont want to do. My main goal is not to make my wrist piece hit rating dependant and stay with my haste bracers till t6. Is this viable or am i wrong on this?
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Originally Posted by Wyleindril
With all that said if i still took the [Cloak of Fiends] then i would lose the 17 hit rating from the [Drape of the Dark Reavers] and replaced the [Worgen Claw Necklace] with the [Necklace of the Deep]. this would force me to take the [Insidious Bands] and [Quickstrider Moccasins] together to make up the hit rating loss. This is something that i dont want to do. My main goal is not to make my wrist piece hit rating dependant and stay with my haste bracers till t6. Is this viable or am i wrong on this?
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Not having max hit is not the end of the world. I ran with 1.5% under the cap for months, simply because that was the best gear setup I had at the time. As in, I had X items to work with, so I equipped what would give me more (raid+personal)dps total. I'm not going to downgrade end result dps just so I can say I cant miss.
Yes it's true that hit rating is the best dps return per item-budget until you are capped, but that wont always correlate into 100% hit being the best dps suit you can put on.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
What is wrong with Insidious Bands? They're the best wrist in the game pre-Sunwell. Quickstrider are also the best mail boots pre-T6 too (Teron no-stam boots fail). We had terrible drop rates on the leather Mother boots, not all our hunters got them.
Not having max hit is not the end of the world. I ran with 1.5% under the cap for months, simply because that was the best gear setup I had at the time. As in, I had X items to work with, so I equipped what would give me more (raid+personal)dps total. I'm not going to downgrade end result dps just so I can say I cant miss. Yes it's true that hit rating is the best dps return per item-budget until you are capped, but that wont always correlate into 100% hit being the best dps suit you can put on. |
i dont think its entirely the end of the world to not have hit cap cause i believe the hit cap is 98 for SV but i keep at least 90 all the time. But i am trying to think of the haste rating on the bracers i have now. [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] The haste on here puts me up to 80 haste rating and i am going to replace the [Vest of Mounting Assault] with the [Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard] which has haste rating also. I believe i will have a total of 105 haste if i stay with my current bracers and with out the bracers 78 total and i dont technically have the quickstriders yet we are still waiting for them to drop right now i am using the [Cobra-Lash Boots]
with a [Glinting Pyrestone] and [Shifting Nightseye].
Thx Wytefist for this great analysis. it is very interesting to read.
I just want to list a few points for hunters trying to decide if they want to give the 7/20/34 spec a shot or not.
First of all i am full t6 geared, of course i dont use all the parts cause i swap out whatever i can with better parts.
I dont have a DST and neither Berserkers Call or Madness of the Betrayer .
I am using Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness, and at least 4 piece t6 to justify the heavy Steady Shot usage.
All this lead to a nice 2130 DPS on Twins for example, which was more than the 2 BM Hunters in raid, but i think they had a few LoS issues during the fight. Also kills above 2000 dps on Brutallus (too lazy to search for the WWS now).
Wow Web Stats for Twins
As posted a lot here, you just have to be flexible with shot rotation and you can achive that with the mentionend spec as well. i have Shivering Felspine and Cloak of Fiends as passive haste items in my setup. There are many different situations that enable you to shoot different rotations :
1) No Quick Shots up, brings me to a very stabil 2:1 rotation where i just use Manitos Macro to shoot it. Also with Drums i can continue to use this shot rotation.
2) As soon as Quick Shots are up (and hopefully Drums too, which puts me at 2.06 speed) i go 3:2 rotation with the same macro, any additional haste might put me into the 1:1 rotation, i dont have to really think about that, it just happens.
Now most of the variations depend on mana for me. If i figure i got enough mana till the end of fight without potting up, i use a few Multi-Shots or Arcane Shots in the 2:1 rotations only. To do that, i just click the macro until i see the Steady shot starting to cast and then feed in the other shots manually. This also goes for Hunters Marking and Scorpid Stinging.
If i am low on mana i just continue with Steady Shots only which is far more mana friendly. I try to use Haste Pots instead of Mana Pots whenever possible before using any Multi/Arcane Shots.
A few advantages to consider using Steady Shot a lot is :
- less mana usage and that enables you to use Haste Pots instead of Mana/Fel Mana Pots.
- the macro is far easier to just spam click your button instead of having to do a more complicated shot rotation, especially in complex fights.
- without Master Tactian your crit rate isnt as unpredictable. I like high crit rate of course but at fights like twins where i have to watch aggro a lot i can have very "unlucky" crits and jump up in threat like a rocket which is very dangerous.
Now with all that said i also want to add that your great analysis brought me to another idea : why not just spec 0/20/41 and still shoot 2:1 rotation when mana is bad and just dont care about Quick Shots and use Readiness and Master Tactitian, which would for sure improve mana efficiency much more since i would get more crits. I will for sure give this a try soonish.
I just want to list a few points for hunters trying to decide if they want to give the 7/20/34 spec a shot or not.
First of all i am full t6 geared, of course i dont use all the parts cause i swap out whatever i can with better parts.
I dont have a DST and neither Berserkers Call or Madness of the Betrayer .
I am using Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness, and at least 4 piece t6 to justify the heavy Steady Shot usage.
All this lead to a nice 2130 DPS on Twins for example, which was more than the 2 BM Hunters in raid, but i think they had a few LoS issues during the fight. Also kills above 2000 dps on Brutallus (too lazy to search for the WWS now).
Wow Web Stats for Twins
As posted a lot here, you just have to be flexible with shot rotation and you can achive that with the mentionend spec as well. i have Shivering Felspine and Cloak of Fiends as passive haste items in my setup. There are many different situations that enable you to shoot different rotations :
1) No Quick Shots up, brings me to a very stabil 2:1 rotation where i just use Manitos Macro to shoot it. Also with Drums i can continue to use this shot rotation.
2) As soon as Quick Shots are up (and hopefully Drums too, which puts me at 2.06 speed) i go 3:2 rotation with the same macro, any additional haste might put me into the 1:1 rotation, i dont have to really think about that, it just happens.
Now most of the variations depend on mana for me. If i figure i got enough mana till the end of fight without potting up, i use a few Multi-Shots or Arcane Shots in the 2:1 rotations only. To do that, i just click the macro until i see the Steady shot starting to cast and then feed in the other shots manually. This also goes for Hunters Marking and Scorpid Stinging.
If i am low on mana i just continue with Steady Shots only which is far more mana friendly. I try to use Haste Pots instead of Mana Pots whenever possible before using any Multi/Arcane Shots.
A few advantages to consider using Steady Shot a lot is :
- less mana usage and that enables you to use Haste Pots instead of Mana/Fel Mana Pots.
- the macro is far easier to just spam click your button instead of having to do a more complicated shot rotation, especially in complex fights.
- without Master Tactian your crit rate isnt as unpredictable. I like high crit rate of course but at fights like twins where i have to watch aggro a lot i can have very "unlucky" crits and jump up in threat like a rocket which is very dangerous.
Now with all that said i also want to add that your great analysis brought me to another idea : why not just spec 0/20/41 and still shoot 2:1 rotation when mana is bad and just dont care about Quick Shots and use Readiness and Master Tactitian, which would for sure improve mana efficiency much more since i would get more crits. I will for sure give this a try soonish.
Grynn, looking at your level of gear I'm not really surprised they're leading you by that much. There are things you can do to improve your dps, but BM hunters are realistically always going to have a solid lead on you (200dps isn't unreasonable) if they know what they're doing, and your gear is not the best you can achieve at your current level of raiding. You just have to do your best to maximize what you can and remember that your expose weakness is contributing a considerable amount. As your gear improves it'll scale much better.
Some things I noticed from the WWS
- Do you run with a mageblood elixir? I didn't see it but that'd help your mana
- Looks like you're using standard mana potions instead of fel mana pots- the extra mana from fel mana pots would also help you out plus you can use them earlier in a fight (they are pricy tho so it depends how critical your dps is on the fight)
- I wouldn't bother with volley- it's a terrible aoe. If you really want to help aoe, stick an explosive trap on the murlocs. Channeling volley means you're not doing other damage attacks which would probably contribute far more
- I don't see you using multishot at all. If you're not using an IAS spec and your mana situation isn't extremely bad, you should be able to do more damage by using multishot when it's up in your rotation the same you would use arcane shot. On Tidewalker it should be safe to use (at least once the murlocs are picked up by the tank)
It sounds like you've been to my site so hopefully you've already perused the gear guide and are working on improving your gear, but one key I'd highly recommend is to work on getting yourself an S3 helm- even if you hate arenas it's an easy gear gain that will last you a long time for minimal time investment. Also you should be using the crit/AP leg patch over the stam/agil one, a crit scope on your gun, 24 AP on your bracers (I'm assuming you just didn't have time to enchant them yet) and definitely work on getting the badge gloves. Good luck on your rep climb to exalted with Aldor, that's another good source of additional dps. You're a little below the hit cap too but not enough to be overly worried about.
Some things I noticed from the WWS
- Do you run with a mageblood elixir? I didn't see it but that'd help your mana
- Looks like you're using standard mana potions instead of fel mana pots- the extra mana from fel mana pots would also help you out plus you can use them earlier in a fight (they are pricy tho so it depends how critical your dps is on the fight)
- I wouldn't bother with volley- it's a terrible aoe. If you really want to help aoe, stick an explosive trap on the murlocs. Channeling volley means you're not doing other damage attacks which would probably contribute far more
- I don't see you using multishot at all. If you're not using an IAS spec and your mana situation isn't extremely bad, you should be able to do more damage by using multishot when it's up in your rotation the same you would use arcane shot. On Tidewalker it should be safe to use (at least once the murlocs are picked up by the tank)
It sounds like you've been to my site so hopefully you've already perused the gear guide and are working on improving your gear, but one key I'd highly recommend is to work on getting yourself an S3 helm- even if you hate arenas it's an easy gear gain that will last you a long time for minimal time investment. Also you should be using the crit/AP leg patch over the stam/agil one, a crit scope on your gun, 24 AP on your bracers (I'm assuming you just didn't have time to enchant them yet) and definitely work on getting the badge gloves. Good luck on your rep climb to exalted with Aldor, that's another good source of additional dps. You're a little below the hit cap too but not enough to be overly worried about.
Id agree for the love of god don't ever take off that dst. I probably won't take mine off even when I get my blackened sliver. If you have mana problems, try using fel mana pots every 2 min and farming some demonic runes or buying dark runes to give yourself some more mana. I know without JoW keeping your mana up can be tough, but you really gotta use all the mana cons available.
Out of curiosity, what's considered 'okay' DPS for survival if your progressing through BT/Hyjal?
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Mji
Out of curiosity, what's considered 'okay' DPS for survival if your progressing through BT/Hyjal?
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Last edited by Cilithan : 06/26/08 at 5:18 AM.
I don't see many people posting at this gear level, so hopefully this is helpful to others as well. I'm in T4/Badge/BoE loot, with only the Arcanite Pistol/Legionkiller from beyond that, so this should be pretty comparable to where you're at. At any rate, some WWS of recent raids:
3 Bosses in Hyjal
Azgalor,Naj,Supremus,Mag
I'm in that same 1000-1300 range, have similar latency issues (300ish), use a 1:1 when hasted, 1:1.5 when not, and don't normally get any good group buffs (only FI in these parses I think). I'd definitely say this is "OK".
3 Bosses in Hyjal
Azgalor,Naj,Supremus,Mag
I'm in that same 1000-1300 range, have similar latency issues (300ish), use a 1:1 when hasted, 1:1.5 when not, and don't normally get any good group buffs (only FI in these parses I think). I'd definitely say this is "OK".
Whytefist, your pre-T6 content discussion got me to thinking about something. As a BM Hunter, I have always known that my best trinket options were (in as best an order as I think):
DST + Hourglass
DST + Tsunami
DST + Berserker's Call
DST + Ashtongue
DST + Madness
DST + Blackened Sliver
What I'm wondering now, as I progress back into Survival and from what I've read here, is what is the best trinket combo when you're in full T6 (granting the 4 piece bonus)? I think that we can all agree that the concept of using the Hourglass of the Unraveler and Tsunami Talisman is pretty much behind us with the only exception being that you're having ungodly issues with drops. For me, due to poor drops, my current DKP status, and a great many people in front of me wanting it as well, I'm a long time away from the Madness (we still haven't had on drop in 4 months of Council on farm).
So this got me to thinking. Let's assume that your options are the DST plus either the Ashtongue trinket or the Berserker's Call. Which offers the most DPS boost over time? I don't have the math in front of me for uptime calculations so I'm kind of half assing this. What this question really boils down to, in my mind, is this: Considering both trinkets over a 120s time period using a 2:1 rotation (we'll leave out the DPS calculations entirely),
- is the Zerker's Call better as you're applying 90 AP to 66 Steady Shots and 450 AP to 13 Steady Shots
or
- is the Ashtongue better as you're more apt to have the 275 AP bonus up more often during the time period in question
If I could figure out what the internal cool down on the Ashtongue Talisman is, that would go a long way to answering this question. But I'm curious about what the outcome would show.
DST + Hourglass
DST + Tsunami
DST + Berserker's Call
DST + Ashtongue
DST + Madness
DST + Blackened Sliver
What I'm wondering now, as I progress back into Survival and from what I've read here, is what is the best trinket combo when you're in full T6 (granting the 4 piece bonus)? I think that we can all agree that the concept of using the Hourglass of the Unraveler and Tsunami Talisman is pretty much behind us with the only exception being that you're having ungodly issues with drops. For me, due to poor drops, my current DKP status, and a great many people in front of me wanting it as well, I'm a long time away from the Madness (we still haven't had on drop in 4 months of Council on farm).
So this got me to thinking. Let's assume that your options are the DST plus either the Ashtongue trinket or the Berserker's Call. Which offers the most DPS boost over time? I don't have the math in front of me for uptime calculations so I'm kind of half assing this. What this question really boils down to, in my mind, is this: Considering both trinkets over a 120s time period using a 2:1 rotation (we'll leave out the DPS calculations entirely),
- is the Zerker's Call better as you're applying 90 AP to 66 Steady Shots and 450 AP to 13 Steady Shots
or
- is the Ashtongue better as you're more apt to have the 275 AP bonus up more often during the time period in question
If I could figure out what the internal cool down on the Ashtongue Talisman is, that would go a long way to answering this question. But I'm curious about what the outcome would show.
That's what I thought. The guild that I'm in now is fully clearing BT and Hyjal in about 2-3 days, with the rest of the week working on Brutallus and/or Kalecgos if people decide to be dumb.
MY question now becomes, on fights like Teron, where my DPS becomes upwards of 1500, are they expecting too much of me by saying I need more DPS?
Also, I'm currently using this rotation, Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto
This is manual shooting. I find that there is little to no clipping with this rotation, but it seems as though that isn't enough. I feel I could do more DPS with the gear that I have.
Any suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated.
MY question now becomes, on fights like Teron, where my DPS becomes upwards of 1500, are they expecting too much of me by saying I need more DPS?
Also, I'm currently using this rotation, Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto
This is manual shooting. I find that there is little to no clipping with this rotation, but it seems as though that isn't enough. I feel I could do more DPS with the gear that I have.
Any suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Bovii
If I could figure out what the internal cool down on the Ashtongue Talisman is, that would go a long way to answering this question. But I'm curious about what the outcome would show.
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@ Nicefacelol
The beauty of Survival is that as long as you get Expose Weakness and the Usual 20 points into marksmanship, you can do whatever you want.
The general Consensus though is that either 7/20/34, or 5/20/37 are the best specs for personal dps for survival while keeping your raid buffage up.
But again, it's really up to you. The difference in DPS from the different Survival Specs is really only a matter of a fair few DPS.
As for Macros, it's a lot harder to make a macro for SV and MM because of the weapon speed of most endgame bows, and the weaving of arcane shot or multi shot within the time between your steady shot finishing, and your autoshot firing without clipping.
The beauty of Survival is that as long as you get Expose Weakness and the Usual 20 points into marksmanship, you can do whatever you want.
The general Consensus though is that either 7/20/34, or 5/20/37 are the best specs for personal dps for survival while keeping your raid buffage up.
But again, it's really up to you. The difference in DPS from the different Survival Specs is really only a matter of a fair few DPS.
As for Macros, it's a lot harder to make a macro for SV and MM because of the weapon speed of most endgame bows, and the weaving of arcane shot or multi shot within the time between your steady shot finishing, and your autoshot firing without clipping.
Long time reader, first time poster
A couple quick questions.
1. I know it was discussed earlier in the thread, but I have a bow related question. Recently my guild has been farming the world bosses for money purposes and the barrel-blade longrifle dropped. I picked it up as an option to have, but I am wondering should I switch over to it or should I stick with the Vengeful Bow that I currently use. I know that a 3.0 speed is preferred for the 1:1.5 rotation that I use, but the possible 36 agility bonus is tempting. Has anyone else encountered this same problem or can you offer some advice?
2. For a guild being fairly new to t6 content (3/5 MH and 3/9 BT) I was curious to see what kind of dps numbers I should be seeing. Currently I can push 1200-1300 on a good night, but most often I sit around 1100. Are these good numbers for my gear or am I doing something wrong. I can post a WWS if needed, but the current ones are out of date.
FYI - I'll fix the armory once it updates.
A couple quick questions.
1. I know it was discussed earlier in the thread, but I have a bow related question. Recently my guild has been farming the world bosses for money purposes and the barrel-blade longrifle dropped. I picked it up as an option to have, but I am wondering should I switch over to it or should I stick with the Vengeful Bow that I currently use. I know that a 3.0 speed is preferred for the 1:1.5 rotation that I use, but the possible 36 agility bonus is tempting. Has anyone else encountered this same problem or can you offer some advice?
2. For a guild being fairly new to t6 content (3/5 MH and 3/9 BT) I was curious to see what kind of dps numbers I should be seeing. Currently I can push 1200-1300 on a good night, but most often I sit around 1100. Are these good numbers for my gear or am I doing something wrong. I can post a WWS if needed, but the current ones are out of date.
FYI - I'll fix the armory once it updates.
@ Rivkah and others.
Thanks for the input. This will certainly help, which is one of the reasons I /salute you all. I went and grabbed my S3 helm, and yesterday during TK, [Star-Strider Boots] dropped for me :P. I started getting used to weaving in Multi-shot during the raid, and for some reason I had it in my head that it wasn't the thing to do alongside of weaving in arcane shot.
Thanks again,
Grynn
Thanks for the input. This will certainly help, which is one of the reasons I /salute you all. I went and grabbed my S3 helm, and yesterday during TK, [Star-Strider Boots] dropped for me :P. I started getting used to weaving in Multi-shot during the raid, and for some reason I had it in my head that it wasn't the thing to do alongside of weaving in arcane shot.
Thanks again,
Grynn
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Originally Posted by Bovii
Whytefist, your pre-T6 content discussion got me to thinking about something. As a BM Hunter, I have always known that my best trinket options were (in as best an order as I think):
DST + Hourglass DST + Tsunami DST + Berserker's Call DST + Ashtongue DST + Madness DST + Blackened Sliver What I'm wondering now, as I progress back into Survival and from what I've read here, is what is the best trinket combo when you're in full T6 (granting the 4 piece bonus)? I think that we can all agree that the concept of using the Hourglass of the Unraveler and Tsunami Talisman is pretty much behind us with the only exception being that you're having ungodly issues with drops. For me, due to poor drops, my current DKP status, and a great many people in front of me wanting it as well, I'm a long time away from the Madness (we still haven't had on drop in 4 months of Council on farm). So this got me to thinking. Let's assume that your options are the DST plus either the Ashtongue trinket or the Berserker's Call. Which offers the most DPS boost over time? I don't have the math in front of me for uptime calculations so I'm kind of half assing this. What this question really boils down to, in my mind, is this: Considering both trinkets over a 120s time period using a 2:1 rotation (we'll leave out the DPS calculations entirely), - is the Zerker's Call better as you're applying 90 AP to 66 Steady Shots and 450 AP to 13 Steady Shots or - is the Ashtongue better as you're more apt to have the 275 AP bonus up more often during the time period in question If I could figure out what the internal cool down on the Ashtongue Talisman is, that would go a long way to answering this question. But I'm curious about what the outcome would show. |
For DST, I only saw it drop twice while playing my main depite killing Gruul upteen times. Plus, one of the other hunter that won it is our pally tank now and the rogue that won it is playing only part time currently. To add salt to the wounds, I have seen it drop 3 times on alt runs. I have been back to running Gruul on my main when we do it on off days, but no luck.
Took me about 16 times running BM after already being exalted with KoT before getting the hourglass. And I do not know how many mech runs I did before getting the abacus to drop.
Despite it being a 10-man raid and doing ZA religously for a while, I saw Berserker's Call drop 4 times before I won it.
We just tried council for the first time last night, so hopefully I will see madness drop soon; however, both our rogues have so much more DKP than me, so it will probably be a while.
Never won the Tsunami desipite the numerous times I have killed Leo including alt runs when I have switched to my hunter just for that fight.
Thus, I am thankful that I could purchase bloodlust with badges and the ashtongue trinket with rep. I will keep trying for the DST when I can.
Anyway, that's why I did my analysis with the trinkets I did since those are the best options I had.
I do plan to do a similar T6 4 set analysis sometime soon so that I am ready to go when I finally get the 4 pieces. However, that is still going to be a while since I just got my second piece this week on our first Mother kill (only took us about 2 hours to learn her tankfully and 2 protectors dropped). When I do it, I will consider doing the analysis with some additional trinkets I do not have so that it will benefit more hunters.
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Originally Posted by Mji
That's what I thought. The guild that I'm in now is fully clearing BT and Hyjal in about 2-3 days, with the rest of the week working on Brutallus and/or Kalecgos if people decide to be dumb.
MY question now becomes, on fights like Teron, where my DPS becomes upwards of 1500, are they expecting too much of me by saying I need more DPS? Also, I'm currently using this rotation, Steady > Arcane > Auto > Steady > Auto > Steady > Multi > Auto This is manual shooting. I find that there is little to no clipping with this rotation, but it seems as though that isn't enough. I feel I could do more DPS with the gear that I have. Any suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated. |
If you have the T6 4-set bonus, then you should be able to produce much greater than 1500 DPS. If you do not have the T6 4-set bonus, then I think 1500 DPS is pretty good. The best I have had is around 1746, but that is biased a little by the fact that I was ghosted at about 14%. If I wouldn't have been ghosted, it would have been a little lower since I had just finished using up the last of my haste effects that I would have had for the fight. I have been typically between 1300-1600 DPS (with wearing one T6) depending on how well I use my haste effects and how much pushback I get during steady casts from Incinerates or constructs in the raid.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
We just tried council for the first time last night, so hopefully I will see madness drop soon; however, both our rogues have so much more DKP than me, so it will probably be a while.
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* All kind of pets will have their own talent tree. A tanking talent tree, a DPS talent tree, and an utility talent tree. Each kind of pet family will have its own talent tree and its own unique ability. [/b] * The shot clipping will be removed from Steady Shot, you'll be able to use it without "interrupting" your autoshot. Hunters will be able to just smash their button.[/b] * There are going to be new pets in WotLK. * The skill points for each pets are being changed to the new "Pet talents" and will disappear. |
I guess this is our time to say our big thanks to those awesome hunters who did everything but hack Blizz servers to make hunters competitive, to those of you who put in the hours and made Dr. Boom into a goblinoid pincushion. To those who discovered, adapted, refined and perfected the 2:1/3:2/1:1, we salute you.
I guess this will make us a bit OP to begin with (when they realise what a can of worms this will unleash) unless they've got something else in store (for us or every other class).
The pet talent trees looks exciting too, a whole new way to theorycraft.
And so it is, the end of an era!
This
I suppose for a hunter who has gone through long nights of shooting at Dr. Boom this change is kind of disappointing as Blizzard will nerf our pve damage now. When all hunters can access the full dps potential developers realise that hunters are rather ridiculous in pve.
Oh well.. It is a nice change overall.
Oh well.. It is a nice change overall.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
i was hoping to get some insight with my current gear and rotation. Im using a 3:2 rotation and a hawk build as survival. I just got the Bristleblitz Striker from Arch, I had been using the badge xbow prior. I do have a bit of passive haste but only 63. It seems with the arch bow, when my Imp Hawk procs I lose dps. i got from a 2.5 speed to about a 2.2 speed, and the steadies seem to destroy my autos when that occurs. Would I be best to spec out of imp hawk? Or do i need a bit more haste? Bit less haste?
Edit: I guess what im looking for is if I have the right gear/spec to run the 2:1 rotation with the arch bow?
Edit: I guess what im looking for is if I have the right gear/spec to run the 2:1 rotation with the arch bow?
Last edited by Tazlin : 06/29/08 at 8:03 PM.
My armory:The World of Warcraft Armory, buying angelista's revenge later today
I've recently swapped to survival and have noticed an abnormal drop in dps from beastmastery(~500), this was using my old beastmastery macro which i've discarded. i was referred to this macro set and was told to use arcane whenever it was up along with these macros and have not tested this in BT yet.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
My DPS was only 744 a few night ago but my pet windserpent was not in use for most of the night which i plan to rectify. I was curious what i need to do to get my DPS up to where it should be as i seem to have some trouble finding quality posts for survival. I'd appreciate all tips and links to informative websites ( i currently use TKAsomething, and coldfront, i rarely come here but plan to change that). My guild's progression is 5/5, 7/9, 0/6.
I have a Xbow of relentless strikes and an assasians alchemist stone in the bank and a valestalker girdle.
I've recently swapped to survival and have noticed an abnormal drop in dps from beastmastery(~500), this was using my old beastmastery macro which i've discarded. i was referred to this macro set and was told to use arcane whenever it was up along with these macros and have not tested this in BT yet.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
My DPS was only 744 a few night ago but my pet windserpent was not in use for most of the night which i plan to rectify. I was curious what i need to do to get my DPS up to where it should be as i seem to have some trouble finding quality posts for survival. I'd appreciate all tips and links to informative websites ( i currently use TKAsomething, and coldfront, i rarely come here but plan to change that). My guild's progression is 5/5, 7/9, 0/6.
I have a Xbow of relentless strikes and an assasians alchemist stone in the bank and a valestalker girdle.
This thread is 94 pages long. The reason why it is so long, is because people didn't read it when it was only 20 pages, so new people keep asking the same questions again. I understand the need for specific questions, but when you're asking "how do I do more dps", that's not something we can magically fix.
My very quick tips:
-- You dont have 4pc t6 + ~80 passive haste, so I dont recommend you use that macro for two reasons: a) lesser dps than 1:1.5 even when it works well, and b) chances are it's not working well and you're chaining steady shots and few autoshots are getting through. A (well performed) 1.1:5 manual rotation will yield much higher dps. 1:1.5 = steady multi auto steady auto steady arcane auto steady auto. For this rotation I recommend the 0/20/41 spec, or similar. The 7/20/34 spec is mainly used for the /cast/cast macro that you listed, along with 4pc t6, a lot of passive haste, and preferably a DST.
-- Using Cheekys Spreadsheet is an easy way to compare gear. Make sure you use it properly and check all the right settings and raid buffs/debuffs. It will show both personal dps and the raid AP gain from EW. There are a few EW -> raid dps formulas lying around in this thread which you can use to determine which items to wear.
My very quick tips:
-- You dont have 4pc t6 + ~80 passive haste, so I dont recommend you use that macro for two reasons: a) lesser dps than 1:1.5 even when it works well, and b) chances are it's not working well and you're chaining steady shots and few autoshots are getting through. A (well performed) 1.1:5 manual rotation will yield much higher dps. 1:1.5 = steady multi auto steady auto steady arcane auto steady auto. For this rotation I recommend the 0/20/41 spec, or similar. The 7/20/34 spec is mainly used for the /cast/cast macro that you listed, along with 4pc t6, a lot of passive haste, and preferably a DST.
-- Using Cheekys Spreadsheet is an easy way to compare gear. Make sure you use it properly and check all the right settings and raid buffs/debuffs. It will show both personal dps and the raid AP gain from EW. There are a few EW -> raid dps formulas lying around in this thread which you can use to determine which items to wear.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
This thread is 94 pages long. The reason why it is so long, is because people didn't read it when it was only 20 pages, so new people keep asking the same questions again. I understand the need for specific questions, but when you're asking "how do I do more dps", that's not something we can magically fix.
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When you can perform a smooth 2:1 rotation that becomes a 3:2 with DST or IAOTH procs, and a 1:1 when both proc, you have enough haste. I believe there is a table in this thread that examines the haste needed to match each of those effects. It's hard to compare it to the real world, latency, etc, so it's really open to personal testing in a raid environment.
More and more people recommend to have ~80 Haste if the Hunter is skilled 7/20/33. Reason being is to get under 2.50 Speed.
I got both Vanirs weapons, ergo 44. With the [Hard Khorium Band] (28) it would be 72 Haste. 72 Haste results in 2.49. Enough, right?
Or should I rather get the [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] for Haste? T6 Gloves have better stats though...
Armory Link is on the left.
I got both Vanirs weapons, ergo 44. With the [Hard Khorium Band] (28) it would be 72 Haste. 72 Haste results in 2.49. Enough, right?
Or should I rather get the [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] for Haste? T6 Gloves have better stats though...
Armory Link is on the left.
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Originally Posted by Chanii
More and more people recommend to have ~80 Haste if the Hunter is skilled 7/20/33. Reason being is to get under 2.50 Speed.
I got both Vanirs weapons, ergo 44. With the [Hard Khorium Band] (28) it would be 72 Haste. 72 Haste results in 2.49. Enough, right? Or should I rather get the [Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix] for Haste? T6 Gloves have better stats though... Armory Link is on the left. |
There's a secondary aspect of the static haste rating, in that it allows you to perform a 2:1 rotation with the macro when not under the effect of AotH or drums. Without the static haste, in these circumstances, you will just chain steadies (as I am painfully aware, since ZA refuses to drop anything of use to me).
My question [and I searched but didn't see anything] to those present is - for those raiding Survival, do you find taking Readiness to be worth the loss of the 5 points in MT?
Our normal survival Hunter recently left for personal IRL issues - I'm stepping in to take over the Survival mantle, but like everyone else, I loathe MT and it's sort of lackluster use, but I know that readiness has been damned handy at various points *cough* Anetheron *cough* where multiple MDs are needed quickly - at the same time, we generally are running with 2-3 Hunters so the situations where a readiness may be needed are few and far between.
I personally prefer the stronger personal DPS build, especially with Brutallus coming up on our radar soon. But just wanted to know if any of you felt even fretting over readiness really mattered >.>
Our normal survival Hunter recently left for personal IRL issues - I'm stepping in to take over the Survival mantle, but like everyone else, I loathe MT and it's sort of lackluster use, but I know that readiness has been damned handy at various points *cough* Anetheron *cough* where multiple MDs are needed quickly - at the same time, we generally are running with 2-3 Hunters so the situations where a readiness may be needed are few and far between.
I personally prefer the stronger personal DPS build, especially with Brutallus coming up on our radar soon. But just wanted to know if any of you felt even fretting over readiness really mattered >.>
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Originally Posted by Crackseed
My question [and I searched but didn't see anything] to those present is - for those raiding Survival, do you find taking Readiness to be worth the loss of the 5 points in MT?
Our normal survival Hunter recently left for personal IRL issues - I'm stepping in to take over the Survival mantle, but like everyone else, I loathe MT and it's sort of lackluster use, but I know that readiness has been damned handy at various points *cough* Anetheron *cough* where multiple MDs are needed quickly - at the same time, we generally are running with 2-3 Hunters so the situations where a readiness may be needed are few and far between. I personally prefer the stronger personal DPS build, especially with Brutallus coming up on our radar soon. But just wanted to know if any of you felt even fretting over readiness really mattered >.> |
With the 4-piece Gronnstalker bonus, I would have a hard time justifying the loss of DPS. Ultimately it is the DPS classes' responsibility to watch their aggro and not rely on extra MDs buoying the threat of the main tank, and positioning and quick reaction by offtanks and people getting Doomed or whatever should mitigate a lot of the absolute need for an extra MD. It's nice to have, but if someone has the gear to support a higher DPS build, I don't see Readiness as ever being required.
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Originally Posted by Intermission
When you can perform a smooth 2:1 rotation that becomes a 3:2 with DST or IAOTH procs, and a 1:1 when both proc, you have enough haste. I believe there is a table in this thread that examines the haste needed to match each of those effects. It's hard to compare it to the real world, latency, etc, so it's really open to personal testing in a raid environment.
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I'm gonna be a little bit more specific about my question. Without listing all the gear involved, since I'm now juggling with many different combinations, I'm looking at possible 2 end-results in terms of stats, unbuffed:
Option1: 926 agi, 2390 AP, 38.16% crit, 0 haste, 2.61 weapon speed, hit-capped
Option2: 847 agi, 2360 AP, 36.14% crit, 75 haste, 2.49 weapon speed, hit-capped
In both cases I have 4T6 bonus, without DST, 5/20/36 spec, and I'm using Manito's macro for shot rotation.
What would you guys recommend ?
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Originally Posted by PreTXT
Well, it is true that only real world will give you the best data, although you are still judging by "feeling" since the boss fights can be quite different from one week to another. Shadow Constructs on Teron, Flamestrikes / Blizzard on Council, etc.,etc., makes it hard to establish a benchmark.
I'm gonna be a little bit more specific about my question. Without listing all the gear involved, since I'm now juggling with many different combinations, I'm looking at possible 2 end-results in terms of stats, unbuffed: Option1: 926 agi, 2390 AP, 38.16% crit, 0 haste, 2.61 weapon speed, hit-capped Option2: 847 agi, 2360 AP, 36.14% crit, 75 haste, 2.49 weapon speed, hit-capped In both cases I have 4T6 bonus, without DST, 5/20/36 spec, and I'm using Manito's macro for shot rotation. What would you guys recommend ? |
With that in mind I would have used option 1. The haste is not really needed unless you have a hard time getting a smooth 2:1 rotation or drop down to 3:2 without having help from other people's haste effects. By not taking your group setup (amount for drummers, heroism, other haste effects) into account, my opinion is that the 0/20/41 spec is better for personal dps, so is the gear since it has higher agi/AP/crit (=better EW uptime and higher AP boost, combined with 2xRF).
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Originally Posted by Arilea
First thing first: 2.49 speed with 15% haste when IAotH procs gives you a speed 2.11 sec. The braking point for a rotation to go from 2:1 to 3:2 is somewhere between 2.10 - 2.05 depending on lag and FPS rate. Based on this I would have droped the 5 points in the BM tree and used them in the SV tree, since the dmg boost from IAotH would be minimal due to no change in your rotation when it procs. As you say yourself; bossfights (hence also group setup) can be different from week to week and you don't really know i.e how many drummers you have available in your group to make your IAotH proc go below the braking point speed for a 3:2 rotation. To rely on a good group setup to be able to do good dps is not something I fancy.
With that in mind I would have used option 1. The haste is not really needed unless you have a hard time getting a smooth 2:1 rotation or drop down to 3:2 without having help from other people's haste effects. By not taking your group setup (amount for drummers, heroism, other haste effects) into account, my opinion is that the 0/20/41 spec is better for personal dps, so is the gear since it has higher agi/AP/crit (=better EW uptime and higher AP boost, combined with 2xRF). |
My main concern is whether I will see a lot Steady Shot chaining if I keep 2.61 weapon speed + 80 active haste from drums (equivalent to 2.48 weapon speed outside IAotH procs).
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Originally Posted by PreTXT
Thanks for the comment ... my fault I haven't provided the full picture. I usually raid with at least another 2 drummers in my group for a total of minimum 3 drums, sometimes 4, so I do benefit from IAotH procs. In addition, I always have an enhancement shaman in my group for GoA, mana totem and Heroism. I try to keep myself hasted as much as possible by using haste pots as well, and this is where 3/3 TotH helps a lot.
My main concern is whether I will see a lot Steady Shot chaining if I keep 2.61 weapon speed + 80 active haste from drums (equivalent to 2.48 weapon speed outside IAotH procs). |
The main reason why I belive you are getting confused about what haste vs. other stats is best, is the fact that so many point out 80 passive haste as optimal. What many fail to see is that this is optimal for SV hunters with DST because of the way the different haste effects works with each other to go from a 2:1 (under influence of passive haste only) to 3:2 (under influence of passive haste + IAotH + Drums) to 1:1 (under infulence of passive haste + RF/DST/Heroism or Haste potion + IAotH and even drums). To find the braking points at the different rotation and to know what makes you go where is important to be able to time the effects you can manage yourself. This is not your "issue" as I see it since you don't have DST, so I would recommand you to find the path with the lowest possible passive haste (haste on gear) which makes you run a smooth 2:1 without procs to 3:2 with procs. Hence recommanding option 1 + 1 gear with a high amount of passive haste taking your drummers into account and making you perform both 2:1 and 3:2 (only to do 1:1 with RF and Heroism ofcourse)
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Looking into the Survival haste rotation stuff and a little experimenting with Cheeky's I may have found something to resurrect from the past, the Barrel-blade long rifle, with it's 2.60 shot speed. With 80 passive haste, a constant 80 haste from drums, and the 2.60 shot speed we can get down to around 2.05 shot speed. Has anyone tried out the BBLR with the more recent findings regarding haste and survival? I picked one up off the ah for 3000g but have yet to equip it since it would be a pretty expensive experiment. Based on Cheeky's it doesn't look like it's worth it, normal non-hasted gear with Bristleblitz is 1867 dps with constant drums with 2:1, the hasted bblr is 1863 dps with a 3:2. There is a gain of 13 ew ap though.
Upon further thought, this will probably be moot soon with the unlinking of auto shot.
Upon further thought, this will probably be moot soon with the unlinking of auto shot.
Last edited by Anal : 07/02/08 at 1:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo-OG
Without 4-pieces of T6, I would have to say that overall, Readiness is worth it. I raided without it for a long time, but after speccing into it I would have to say it was worth it. The extra MD, the extra Rapid Fire, and even an extra FD when every single boss in ZA seems all but immune to dropping my damn aggro are all icing on the cake.
With the 4-piece Gronnstalker bonus, I would have a hard time justifying the loss of DPS. Ultimately it is the DPS classes' responsibility to watch their aggro and not rely on extra MDs buoying the threat of the main tank, and positioning and quick reaction by offtanks and people getting Doomed or whatever should mitigate a lot of the absolute need for an extra MD. It's nice to have, but if someone has the gear to support a higher DPS build, I don't see Readiness as ever being required. |
From all my analysis of pre-T6 4-set bonus specs, the Readiness spec has always worked out best for me theoretically and practically. An MT should not be undersold. For me right now, it theoretically provide an average of 3.7% crit with my unhasted rotation. The value is even higher depending on how much haste effects I get since haste results in more shots per second and a greater MT uptime. With all of our abilities that proc off crits (EW, TotH, GftT, some trinkets), that extra crit not only directly increases our DPS but also increases indirectly through our other talent effects as well.
Post-T6 4-set, it is still an option, but I believe that in most cases that it will result in less personal and raid overall DPS.
I have been considering the Imp hawk survival spec. (5/20/36). I have yet to get dst, and with only 25 haste atm I'm trying to figure out if it would be worth it, considering im using the badge bow still, my attack speed is at 2.4 which seemed viable for this spec (basically what is the normal attack speed necessary to succeed at this spec, i remember hearing something about 2.29, but im not sure if im remembering correctly. But also to add on to this. Would the thundering earthstorm diamond be an acceptable meta socket for a imp hawk surv spec? due to the chance on hit haste.
Smashed my personal best again at Brutallus on thursday night.
2206 DPS, no heroism.
Wow Web Stats
0/20/41 106 haste, Archi bow.
Group = me - war tank - pala tank - feral druid - resto shammy dropping agi
shammy swapped to melee group to pop heroism then back again.
Me and the druid using drums, shammy using resto drums.
2:1 rotation unhasted - 1:1 with rapid fire - 3:2 with haste pot
I have been 5/20/36 for the past few weeks, to see the benefit of imp hawk, and it was nice during RF / haste pot times with a hawk proc, but other wise it still made me do a 2:1 rotation with 106 passive haste, so thinking i need more haste to get a 3:2 with hawk proc's i decided to go back to 0/20/41 and my DPS improved by 150 (2050 being my previous best on brut)
On the kill i had 50% steady crit% and 54% auto shot crit%, fully buffed i had a 53% crit% so it was a pretty good example of potential DPS.
On a few of the many wipes:P i was peaking at about 2350 DPS for 2-3 mins but my crit on them trys was 1-2% more than my actual.
Oh, no burn on the kill, yey!
2206 DPS, no heroism.
Wow Web Stats
0/20/41 106 haste, Archi bow.
Group = me - war tank - pala tank - feral druid - resto shammy dropping agi
shammy swapped to melee group to pop heroism then back again.
Me and the druid using drums, shammy using resto drums.
2:1 rotation unhasted - 1:1 with rapid fire - 3:2 with haste pot
I have been 5/20/36 for the past few weeks, to see the benefit of imp hawk, and it was nice during RF / haste pot times with a hawk proc, but other wise it still made me do a 2:1 rotation with 106 passive haste, so thinking i need more haste to get a 3:2 with hawk proc's i decided to go back to 0/20/41 and my DPS improved by 150 (2050 being my previous best on brut)
On the kill i had 50% steady crit% and 54% auto shot crit%, fully buffed i had a 53% crit% so it was a pretty good example of potential DPS.
On a few of the many wipes:P i was peaking at about 2350 DPS for 2-3 mins but my crit on them trys was 1-2% more than my actual.
Oh, no burn on the kill, yey!
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Originally Posted by nosleep
Smashed my personal best again at Brutallus on thursday night.
2206 DPS, no heroism. Wow Web Stats 0/20/41 106 haste, Archi bow. Group = me - war tank - pala tank - feral druid - resto shammy dropping agi shammy swapped to melee group to pop heroism then back again. Me and the druid using drums, shammy using resto drums. 2:1 rotation unhasted - 1:1 with rapid fire - 3:2 with haste pot I have been 5/20/36 for the past few weeks, to see the benefit of imp hawk, and it was nice during RF / haste pot times with a hawk proc, but other wise it still made me do a 2:1 rotation with 106 passive haste, so thinking i need more haste to get a 3:2 with hawk proc's i decided to go back to 0/20/41 and my DPS improved by 150 (2050 being my previous best on brut) On the kill i had 50% steady crit% and 54% auto shot crit%, fully buffed i had a 53% crit% so it was a pretty good example of potential DPS. On a few of the many wipes:P i was peaking at about 2350 DPS for 2-3 mins but my crit on them trys was 1-2% more than my actual. Oh, no burn on the kill, yey! |
I'm having a really tough time collecting haste gear to make the switch to the /cast /cast macro. I have [Bristleblitz Striker] and the t6 4pc, but I'm fairly new to this guild, and literally all of the other hunters have more DKP than me, and we just started Sunwell. To top it off, there is also competition on the DST, Hard Khorium Bands, and the Shivering Felspine. We currently only have 1 day for SWP, and generally clear the Kalecgos trash only once, so we don't stockpile too many Sunmotes, and again... low DKP. And we have little chances of a Shivering Felspine, not to mention the first 2-3 aren't going to me. Without a DST, Shivering Felspine, or Hard Khorium Band (until I have a good 6k g to spare), I'm torn between going for odd haste pieces, or keeping my 1:1.5 rotation.
Gear I have:
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] ( can get next [Insidious Bands] )
[Band of Devastation] ( would replace [Garona's Signet Ring] )
[Arrow-fall Chestguard] ( [Vest of Mounting Assault] )
[Fists of Mukoa] ( would replace t6 gloves, thus breaking the set. Not worth it. )
Gear can get anytime soon:
[Cloak of Fiends] ( to replace [Blood Knight War Cloak], but... ZA just won't drop it. )
[Valestalker Girdle] (to replace [Bladeangel's Money Belt] just in cast I ever need a haste boost, and it won't cost me DKP. )
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] ( would replace t6 shoulders, and break the set. Again.. not worth it. )
Gear I can't get:
[Shivering Felspine] None have dropped, 4-5 people want it.
[Hard Khorium Band] Lack of sunmotes / money.
[Hard Khorium Choker] ^ that
[Dragonspine Trophy] 6-7 people want it, its going for DKP, and we're going maybe once every couple weeks.
See my problem? I can't grab the good haste gear, and I'm not part of a good drum rotation (usually me and another drummer max), so I'm not sure what to do. Any input? Gimp my stats a bit to switch rotations with low haste and no DST, or just say screw it and stick with the 1:1.5?
Gear I have:
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] ( can get next [Insidious Bands] )
[Band of Devastation] ( would replace [Garona's Signet Ring] )
[Arrow-fall Chestguard] ( [Vest of Mounting Assault] )
[Fists of Mukoa] ( would replace t6 gloves, thus breaking the set. Not worth it. )
Gear can get anytime soon:
[Cloak of Fiends] ( to replace [Blood Knight War Cloak], but... ZA just won't drop it. )
[Valestalker Girdle] (to replace [Bladeangel's Money Belt] just in cast I ever need a haste boost, and it won't cost me DKP. )
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] ( would replace t6 shoulders, and break the set. Again.. not worth it. )
Gear I can't get:
[Shivering Felspine] None have dropped, 4-5 people want it.
[Hard Khorium Band] Lack of sunmotes / money.
[Hard Khorium Choker] ^ that
[Dragonspine Trophy] 6-7 people want it, its going for DKP, and we're going maybe once every couple weeks.
See my problem? I can't grab the good haste gear, and I'm not part of a good drum rotation (usually me and another drummer max), so I'm not sure what to do. Any input? Gimp my stats a bit to switch rotations with low haste and no DST, or just say screw it and stick with the 1:1.5?
As I understand it, you'll still be served better by just using the steady shot macro with a 0/20/41 spec now that your steady shots should hit harder then your arcane shots. The other nice thing is that the macro will automatically switch you to a faster rotation when you get lusted or use rapid fire. The 5 point in imp hawk is once you hit the 154 haste rating mark.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Did someone make calcs about these two weapons, used by a SV Hunter?
[Apolyon, the Soul-render] VS. [Shivering Felspine]
Entchants: 35 agi
Gems: 10 Agi for each available Slot
It would be interesting at which uptime of EW [Apolyon, the Soul-render] is better to use.
So my thoughts are:
++ good up time of EW ~85% (tank'n spank encounter) --> [Shivering Felspine]
++ rare up time of EW <85% (a lot moving or target switchting ecnounter) --> [Apolyon, the Soul-render]
[Apolyon, the Soul-render] VS. [Shivering Felspine]
Entchants: 35 agi
Gems: 10 Agi for each available Slot
It would be interesting at which uptime of EW [Apolyon, the Soul-render] is better to use.
So my thoughts are:
++ good up time of EW ~85% (tank'n spank encounter) --> [Shivering Felspine]
++ rare up time of EW <85% (a lot moving or target switchting ecnounter) --> [Apolyon, the Soul-render]
Last edited by Pootch : 07/09/08 at 8:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pootch
Did someone make calcs about these two weapons, used by a SV Hunter?
[Apolyon, the Soul-render] VS. [Shivering Felspine] Entchants: 35 agi Gems: 10 Agi for each available Slot It would be interesting at which uptime of EW [Apolyon, the Soul-render] is better to use. So my thoughts are: ++ good up time of EW ~85% (tank'n spank encounter) --> [Shivering Felspine] ++ rare up time of EW <85% (a lot moving or target switchting ecnounter) --> [Apolyon, the Soul-render] |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
|
Originally Posted by Pootch
Did someone make calcs about these two weapons, used by a SV Hunter?
[Apolyon, the Soul-render] VS. [Shivering Felspine] Entchants: 35 agi Gems: 10 Agi for each available Slot It would be interesting at which uptime of EW [Apolyon, the Soul-render] is better to use. So my thoughts are: ++ good up time of EW ~85% (tank'n spank encounter) --> [Shivering Felspine] ++ rare up time of EW <85% (a lot moving or target switchting ecnounter) --> [Apolyon, the Soul-render] |
Last edited by Drakbak : 07/09/08 at 10:10 AM.
Another Brut WWS Report
I wanted to post a "best performance" report for Brutallus, for everyone else who is trying to determine if they're on the mark or not. I was grouped with resto shammy (GoA, Mana Spring, SoE -for pets), druid tank (LotP), a BM hunter, and a warrior tank. We also had a ret pally in the raid for JoW. I was showing a 50% crit rate in the paperdoll. I have no passive haste (booo).
I had 1075 agility, pre GoA (I think it goes to 1186 if I remember right). I did not have a +20 agi scroll on me. Chose the agility elixir over the demonslaying. I did not get burned so I didn't have to move at all. 3 haste pots, 2 rapidfires, 1 bloodlust (she didn't get swapped into a different group to give them a bloodlust, for once!). I was able to unload and never dipped below 70% mana. 2x weapon oils. No drummer in the group. I do pay attention to my haste effects. I manually weave 1:1.5 but let the macro switch to 3:2 or 1:1 when I'm under sufficient haste conditions.
Wow Web Stats
The previous kills of Brutallus had me around 1500 DPS; some 1% wipes showed me at 1600 DPS. Being able to use haste pots (instead of mana), having one bloodlust, and ESPECIALLY not getting burned really helped. Otherwise, everyone was pretty content at the ~1500 DPS I was putting out for every previous pull, since my EW was bringing in at least 800+ DPS (reasonable estimate by Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics).
I had 1100 buffed agi before I upgraded to the T6 belt (from a belt of deep shadow) and paired two mojo daggers (from the halberd of desolation), so now I have 25 less agility than I did before. But the damage increase from the additional armor penetration shows both in ArP calculators and I can see it from the increase in critical strike damage too. I haven't had a felspine drop for me yet, but will definitely toy around with the varying levels of "shoot faster" versus "hit harder" with haste and armor penetration.
Yes, I do love scattershot and wyvvern sting; much more than having readiness. I don't "just" raid, so the WWS shows what can be done with a non 100% raid spec. I'm sure I can do more, BUT I've been getting much use of scatter and wyvvern during felmyst, against those people who can't get out of the dusting fast enough. It's a little game of "how many MCd guildies can I kill before we wipe?" ^_^
I had 1075 agility, pre GoA (I think it goes to 1186 if I remember right). I did not have a +20 agi scroll on me. Chose the agility elixir over the demonslaying. I did not get burned so I didn't have to move at all. 3 haste pots, 2 rapidfires, 1 bloodlust (she didn't get swapped into a different group to give them a bloodlust, for once!). I was able to unload and never dipped below 70% mana. 2x weapon oils. No drummer in the group. I do pay attention to my haste effects. I manually weave 1:1.5 but let the macro switch to 3:2 or 1:1 when I'm under sufficient haste conditions.
Wow Web Stats
The previous kills of Brutallus had me around 1500 DPS; some 1% wipes showed me at 1600 DPS. Being able to use haste pots (instead of mana), having one bloodlust, and ESPECIALLY not getting burned really helped. Otherwise, everyone was pretty content at the ~1500 DPS I was putting out for every previous pull, since my EW was bringing in at least 800+ DPS (reasonable estimate by Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics).
I had 1100 buffed agi before I upgraded to the T6 belt (from a belt of deep shadow) and paired two mojo daggers (from the halberd of desolation), so now I have 25 less agility than I did before. But the damage increase from the additional armor penetration shows both in ArP calculators and I can see it from the increase in critical strike damage too. I haven't had a felspine drop for me yet, but will definitely toy around with the varying levels of "shoot faster" versus "hit harder" with haste and armor penetration.
Yes, I do love scattershot and wyvvern sting; much more than having readiness. I don't "just" raid, so the WWS shows what can be done with a non 100% raid spec. I'm sure I can do more, BUT I've been getting much use of scatter and wyvvern during felmyst, against those people who can't get out of the dusting fast enough. It's a little game of "how many MCd guildies can I kill before we wipe?" ^_^
Let me see if I understand this. A SV build with 7 points into BM is only worth it if I have enough passive haste that with a Hawk proc my draw speed drops below 2.1 and I have a DST as well. Otherwise I'm better off going with a 0/20/41 build and getting enough passive haste to create a tight 2:1 rotation? This is assuming that the 4pc bonus from T6.
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Originally Posted by Alucarde
Let me see if I understand this. A SV build with 7 points into BM is only worth it if I have enough passive haste that with a Hawk proc my draw speed drops below 2.1 and I have a DST as well. Otherwise I'm better off going with a 0/20/41 build and getting enough passive haste to create a tight 2:1 rotation? This is assuming that the 4pc bonus from T6.
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I would suspect that even without drums it would still work, since you could substitute haste pots for the fel mana pots you'd normally chain-chug from working Arcane and Multi shot in to your damage cycle, but I'm not entirely clear on that particular area of the mechanic.
This is the WWS report from my guilds latest attempts on Brut. I specced SV about a day ago due to our previous SV hunter not wanting to do it anymore. So because of this I know I am not gemmed accordingly and over the hit cap by like 36 hit rating. However I was looking to get some feedback on my performance. I am using a 20/41 build and for the most part used a 2:1 rotation. I tried a 1:1.5 rotation on a few of the attempts and it seemed to give me less DPS. So like I said any feedback on anything you can see I'm doing wrong would be greatly appreciated.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Hello guy's.
Not long ago I changed to Surv from BM. So not every item in my setup matches surv spec perfectly.
Here is my WOW armory
On our last Brutallus kill i Hit 2050 DPS, using Steady spaming macro. I was in group with restor shammy, DPS druid, and two BM hunters.
I have some questions:
-As i mentioned on this thread that surv hunters are mainly put in a group with tanks, why is it so?
-Can you recomend something i could do to increase my dps significantly?
Thank you for your help
Not long ago I changed to Surv from BM. So not every item in my setup matches surv spec perfectly.
Here is my WOW armory
On our last Brutallus kill i Hit 2050 DPS, using Steady spaming macro. I was in group with restor shammy, DPS druid, and two BM hunters.
I have some questions:
-As i mentioned on this thread that surv hunters are mainly put in a group with tanks, why is it so?
-Can you recomend something i could do to increase my dps significantly?
Thank you for your help
I was lucky enough to get the T6 Chest and Legs from our last run. May i ask whats the best gem to put there given that i am going survival build?
Red = +10 agi
Yellow = ???
Blue = ???
Red = +10 agi
Yellow = ???
Blue = ???
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Originally Posted by joms
I was lucky enough to get the T6 Chest and Legs from our last run. May i ask whats the best gem to put there given that i am going survival build?
Red = +10 agi Yellow = ??? Blue = ??? |
But the t6 chest has a good bonus. Its nice to fill some of your meta requirements there.
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Originally Posted by Tilky
Hello guy's.
-As i mentioned on this thread that surv hunters are mainly put in a group with tanks, why is it so? |
The World of Warcraft Armory
Is the link to my armory...I did like 1950 DPS on Brut in a group with 2 BM hunters, a pally with drums, and a priest. I also had a Bloodlust switched in.
I think I had WAY to many steadys compared to autos...and i know it gimped my DPS. With my spec, gear, haste should I be still jamming a 1:1.5, or should I be spamming 3:2?
What is this 2:1 I read about?
Also, are there thoughts on surv hunters stacking haste and using a fast weapon? i also have a bristleblitz...should i be using that?
Is the link to my armory...I did like 1950 DPS on Brut in a group with 2 BM hunters, a pally with drums, and a priest. I also had a Bloodlust switched in.
I think I had WAY to many steadys compared to autos...and i know it gimped my DPS. With my spec, gear, haste should I be still jamming a 1:1.5, or should I be spamming 3:2?
What is this 2:1 I read about?
Also, are there thoughts on surv hunters stacking haste and using a fast weapon? i also have a bristleblitz...should i be using that?
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 1 of 4
For my own information, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with various trinkets under various haste effects for two main spec options (0/20/41 and 7/20/34) for a 2.8 base speed ranged weapon (e.g. [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]) with the T6 4-set bonus gear. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use for when I finally get the T6 4-set bonus (guild currently working on Archimonde and Illidian so it should be within the next few weeks), and which spec option would be better. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that may be in similar situations. I will be doing another version of this analysis with a 3.0 base speed ranged weapon in the future and comparing the results to this one (not planning to do a version with a 2.9 base speed ranged weapon since there currently are not any good ones for end-game).
This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization; however, I have observed many of these trends in actual raids for the gear I have. If I have time, I may try to perform the analysis (partially of course) in game as well.
If you do not want to read all of the details, I have bolded the key points in parts 1 to 3, or you can go to part 4 which is unbolded.
Background and constraints
1) The ranged weapon used in the analysis is the badge crossbow, [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] since that is the best ranged weapon I currently have. Thus, this analysis applies for 2.8 base weapon speed with a 2.43 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. I also have an additional 27 haste rating from [item]Bindings of Lightning Reflexes[\item] resulting in a 2.39 unhasted weapon speed. The results can be extrapolated for 2.9 and 3.0 base weapon speeds by realizing you need about 87 and 147 passive haste, respectively, to get to starting point of this analysis.
2) Tried out three trinket sets, two which are my best trinkets. These are (unfortunately I have not won [item]Dragonspine Trophy[\item] yet but I included it in the analysis with the hopes I will and since it is a item that a lot of other survival hunters have):
a. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
b. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
c. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Dragonspine Trophy]
Note that the analysis assumes using [Berserker's Call] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application unless you have it in your shot rotation macro, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical. Also note that [Madness of the Betrayer] exists in all three options since it is a good trinket and I need the 20 hit rating from it to remain capped while using my better DPS items. The analysis also assumed that immediately when the DST proced that the rotation was switched to a 1:1 (even if a 3:2 may be the more ideal).
3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear with the exception that I replaced my chest ([item]Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard[\item]) and helm ([item]Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm[\item] with their T6 counterparts to get the T6 4-set bonus.
4) For the 0/20/41 spec I used my talents with Readiness, 2/3 EW, and 3/3 TotH. For the 7/20/34 spec, I dropped Readiness and MT and a point in TotH to get 5/5 IAotH and FF.
5) Used the raid buffs that I can count on. The pertinent ones of these are Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Blessing of Wisdom, Arcane Brilliance, Gift of the Wild, agility food, pet food, Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, and two Superior Mana Oils. Hence, the analysis does not include Leader of the Pact or Grace of Air since I rarely get either. With this set of buffs, the base agility is 1109 (277.25 EW AP). It also includes the boss debuffs of 5 Sunders and Curse of Shadows.
6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet.
7) Performed the analysis on the following rotations:
a. 1:1.5 (with both arcane shot and multishot)
b. 1:1.4 (with both arcane shot and multishot)
c. 2:1
d. 3:2
e. 1:1
For those unfamiliar with the 1:1.4, it is similar to the 1:1.5 in that it does a base of “auto-steady shot”s with using arcane shot and multishot when they are available with at least two “auto-steady shot”s between the specials. The difference is that this rotation adds in another auto-steady before the multishots since multishot is not yet available after the second steady shot has been fired after the last arcane shot. This is done instead of waiting for multishot to finish its cooldown as would be done for the 1:1.5 rotation. Thus, the rotation is:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady
The .4 comes from the fact that 40% or 0.40 of the specials compared to the number of auto-steadies similar to the .5 in the 1:1.5 being because 50% or 0.5 specials per auto-steady.
8) Performed the analysis starting at 0 haste rating then adding haste rating in steps of 25. In regions where the increase in DPS was “linear”, haste rating was increased in steps of 100 until a non-linear region was encountered, in which case worked backwards to find where the regions changed.
9) For each combination, I recorded DPS, shots per second (SPS), and EW uptime. Note that since [Dragonspine Trophy] often affects EW uptime via the additional SPS that the other two trinkets do not have, it usually provides higher EW uptime than the other two do, which both have the same EW uptime.
10) For converting EW AP into raid DPS, I use a factor of 2. This is derived using a 0.25 average coefficient for converting AP to effective DPS and assuming 8 physical DPS in the raid (0.25 * 8 = 2).
11) For Quickshot procs, I used the rotation during Quickshots that provided the maximum DPS and which was the unhasted rotation or something lower on the list in 7). For instance, when analyzing the 2:1 rotation, 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 were not options to use during Quickshots but 2:1, 3:2, and 1:1 were. When both DST and Quickshots proced, then a 1:1 was used. For the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations, used the 1:1.4 rotation for haste rating between 0 and 185 and then used the 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range. For the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations, used the 3:2 for haste ratings from 0 to 105 and then used 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range.
12) The initial baseline rotation for comparison is the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus with the 0/20/41 build. It is also trinket set a) since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides:
DPS: 1660.24
EW Uptime: 91.39% (253.38 average EW AP or 506.76 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2167.00
13) Key for converting the haste rating to weapon speed for this analysis is provided below. Note that the 0 haste rating value is after incorporating the 27 passive haste from the BT crafted bracers. The value in the table at -27 are the speed for no passive haste rating.
For my own information, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with various trinkets under various haste effects for two main spec options (0/20/41 and 7/20/34) for a 2.8 base speed ranged weapon (e.g. [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]) with the T6 4-set bonus gear. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use for when I finally get the T6 4-set bonus (guild currently working on Archimonde and Illidian so it should be within the next few weeks), and which spec option would be better. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that may be in similar situations. I will be doing another version of this analysis with a 3.0 base speed ranged weapon in the future and comparing the results to this one (not planning to do a version with a 2.9 base speed ranged weapon since there currently are not any good ones for end-game).
This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization; however, I have observed many of these trends in actual raids for the gear I have. If I have time, I may try to perform the analysis (partially of course) in game as well.
If you do not want to read all of the details, I have bolded the key points in parts 1 to 3, or you can go to part 4 which is unbolded.
Background and constraints
1) The ranged weapon used in the analysis is the badge crossbow, [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] since that is the best ranged weapon I currently have. Thus, this analysis applies for 2.8 base weapon speed with a 2.43 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. I also have an additional 27 haste rating from [item]Bindings of Lightning Reflexes[\item] resulting in a 2.39 unhasted weapon speed. The results can be extrapolated for 2.9 and 3.0 base weapon speeds by realizing you need about 87 and 147 passive haste, respectively, to get to starting point of this analysis.
2) Tried out three trinket sets, two which are my best trinkets. These are (unfortunately I have not won [item]Dragonspine Trophy[\item] yet but I included it in the analysis with the hopes I will and since it is a item that a lot of other survival hunters have):
a. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
b. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
c. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Dragonspine Trophy]
Note that the analysis assumes using [Berserker's Call] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application unless you have it in your shot rotation macro, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical. Also note that [Madness of the Betrayer] exists in all three options since it is a good trinket and I need the 20 hit rating from it to remain capped while using my better DPS items. The analysis also assumed that immediately when the DST proced that the rotation was switched to a 1:1 (even if a 3:2 may be the more ideal).
3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear with the exception that I replaced my chest ([item]Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard[\item]) and helm ([item]Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm[\item] with their T6 counterparts to get the T6 4-set bonus.
4) For the 0/20/41 spec I used my talents with Readiness, 2/3 EW, and 3/3 TotH. For the 7/20/34 spec, I dropped Readiness and MT and a point in TotH to get 5/5 IAotH and FF.
5) Used the raid buffs that I can count on. The pertinent ones of these are Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Blessing of Wisdom, Arcane Brilliance, Gift of the Wild, agility food, pet food, Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, and two Superior Mana Oils. Hence, the analysis does not include Leader of the Pact or Grace of Air since I rarely get either. With this set of buffs, the base agility is 1109 (277.25 EW AP). It also includes the boss debuffs of 5 Sunders and Curse of Shadows.
6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet.
7) Performed the analysis on the following rotations:
a. 1:1.5 (with both arcane shot and multishot)
b. 1:1.4 (with both arcane shot and multishot)
c. 2:1
d. 3:2
e. 1:1
For those unfamiliar with the 1:1.4, it is similar to the 1:1.5 in that it does a base of “auto-steady shot”s with using arcane shot and multishot when they are available with at least two “auto-steady shot”s between the specials. The difference is that this rotation adds in another auto-steady before the multishots since multishot is not yet available after the second steady shot has been fired after the last arcane shot. This is done instead of waiting for multishot to finish its cooldown as would be done for the 1:1.5 rotation. Thus, the rotation is:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady
The .4 comes from the fact that 40% or 0.40 of the specials compared to the number of auto-steadies similar to the .5 in the 1:1.5 being because 50% or 0.5 specials per auto-steady.
8) Performed the analysis starting at 0 haste rating then adding haste rating in steps of 25. In regions where the increase in DPS was “linear”, haste rating was increased in steps of 100 until a non-linear region was encountered, in which case worked backwards to find where the regions changed.
9) For each combination, I recorded DPS, shots per second (SPS), and EW uptime. Note that since [Dragonspine Trophy] often affects EW uptime via the additional SPS that the other two trinkets do not have, it usually provides higher EW uptime than the other two do, which both have the same EW uptime.
10) For converting EW AP into raid DPS, I use a factor of 2. This is derived using a 0.25 average coefficient for converting AP to effective DPS and assuming 8 physical DPS in the raid (0.25 * 8 = 2).
11) For Quickshot procs, I used the rotation during Quickshots that provided the maximum DPS and which was the unhasted rotation or something lower on the list in 7). For instance, when analyzing the 2:1 rotation, 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 were not options to use during Quickshots but 2:1, 3:2, and 1:1 were. When both DST and Quickshots proced, then a 1:1 was used. For the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations, used the 1:1.4 rotation for haste rating between 0 and 185 and then used the 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range. For the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations, used the 3:2 for haste ratings from 0 to 105 and then used 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range.
12) The initial baseline rotation for comparison is the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus with the 0/20/41 build. It is also trinket set a) since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides:
DPS: 1660.24
EW Uptime: 91.39% (253.38 average EW AP or 506.76 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2167.00
13) Key for converting the haste rating to weapon speed for this analysis is provided below. Note that the 0 haste rating value is after incorporating the 27 passive haste from the BT crafted bracers. The value in the table at -27 are the speed for no passive haste rating.
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Haste...Haste.......2.8.......3.0 Rating..Percent =========================== -27.......-1.72%.....2.43.....2.61 0...........0.00%.....2.39.....2.56 25.........1.59%.....2.36.....2.53 50.........3.18%.....2.32.....2.49 75.........4.78%.....2.29.....2.45 100........6.37%.....2.25.....2.41 125........7.96%.....2.22.....2.38 150........9.55%.....2.19.....2.34 175.......11.15%.....2.16.....2.31 200.......12.74%.....2.13.....2.28 225.......14.33%.....2.10.....2.25 250.......15.92%.....2.07.....2.22 275.......17.52%.....2.04.....2.19 300.......19.11%.....2.02.....2.16 325.......20.70%.....1.99.....2.13 350.......22.29%.....1.96.....2.10 375.......23.89%.....1.94.....2.08 400.......25.48%.....1.91.....2.05 425.......27.07%.....1.89.....2.03 450.......28.66%.....1.87.....2.00 475.......30.25%.....1.84.....1.98 500.......31.85%.....1.82.....1.95 525.......33.44%.....1.80.....1.93 550.......35.03%.....1.78.....1.91 575.......36.62%.....1.76.....1.89 600.......38.22%.....1.74.....1.86 625.......39.81%.....1.72.....1.84 650.......41.40%.....1.70.....1.82 675.......42.99%.....1.68.....1.80 700.......44.59%.....1.66.....1.78 725.......46.18%.....1.65.....1.76 750.......47.77%.....1.63.....1.75 775.......49.36%.....1.61.....1.73 800.......50.96%.....1.59.....1.71 825.......52.55%.....1.58.....1.69 850.......54.14%.....1.56.....1.67 875.......55.73%.....1.55.....1.66 900.......57.32%.....1.53.....1.64 925.......58.92%.....1.52.....1.62 950.......60.51%.....1.50.....1.61 975.......62.10%.....1.49.....1.59 1000......63.69%.....1.47.....1.58 |
Last edited by Whitefyst : Yesterday at 10:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Teallc
The World of Warcraft Armory
Is the link to my armory...I did like 1950 DPS on Brut in a group with 2 BM hunters, a pally with drums, and a priest. I also had a Bloodlust switched in. I think I had WAY to many steadys compared to autos...and i know it gimped my DPS. With my spec, gear, haste should I be still jamming a 1:1.5, or should I be spamming 3:2? What is this 2:1 I read about? Also, are there thoughts on surv hunters stacking haste and using a fast weapon? i also have a bristleblitz...should i be using that? |
You've got the perfect spec, enough haste, and a DST for 3:2. You should definitely be using the /cast /cast macro over a clipped 1:1.5. With a 2.8 speed and 97 haste, your various draw speeds should be:
2.29
1.99 with IAotH proc
1.91 with DST proc
1.66 with both
The /cast /cast macro simply adapts to your draw speed, it can shoot a 2:1 (steady steady auto, which you will shoot while unhasted from procs), a 3:2 (steady steady auto steady auto, when either IAotH or DST procs), or a 1:1 (steady auto, when both proc). Below is a nice chart to use to see what speeds will shoot which rotation.
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| ........ 1.59 ........ || ..... 38 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.00:1 ... | | ........ 1.61 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 35 .. || ...1.00:1 ... | | ........ 1.64 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.00:1 ... | ---> Slowest speed for true 1:1 | ........ 1.67 ........ || ..... 49 ...... || .. 42 .. || ...1.17:1 ... | | ........ 1.74 ........ || ..... 67 ...... || .. 59 .. || ...1.14:1 ... | | ........ 1.79 ........ || ..... 40 ...... || .. 34 .. || ...1.18:1 ... | | ........ 1.83 ........ || ..... 61 ...... || .. 47 .. || ...1.30:1 ... | ---> now closer to 3:2 than 1:1 | ........ 1.86 ........ || ..... 51 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.34:1 ... | | ........ 1.88 ........ || ..... 31 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.30:1 ... | | ........ 1.92 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.40:1 ... | | ........ 1.96 ........ || ..... 26 ...... || .. 18 .. || ...1.44:1 ... | | ........ 2.07 ........ || ..... 23 ...... || .. 16 .. || ...1.44:1 ... | ---> these speeds are the closest tested for true 3:2 | ........ 2.11 ........ || ..... 39 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.56:1 ... | | ........ 2.14 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 14 .. || ...1.71:1 ... | | ........ 2.17 ........ || ..... 43 ...... || .. 23 .. || ...1.87:1 ... | ---> now closer to 2:1 than 3:2 |
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 2 of 4
Results and Observations for the 0/20/41 Build with a 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provided the most DPS at 1660.24 than the b) at 1649.80 (-10.44) and c) at 1631.57 (-28.67) trinket groups and with only -0.10 EW uptime (=> -0.28 EW AP => -0.56 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 10.44 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 135 HR (2.21 weapon speed) for trinket sets a) and b). At this point the rotation becomes tight and any additional haste provides no benefit to those rotations. At this haste cap, the a) trinket set provides 1688.68 DPS and 91.81 EW Uptime, while trinket set c) has 1685.40 DPS (-3.28) and 92.28 EW uptime (+0.47% => +1.30 EW AP => +2.60 raid DPS) for only -0.68 overall DPS.
- Trinket set c) continues to increase in both DPS and EW uptime after the haste cap for the other trinket sets. This is because the DST procs are using the 1:1 rotation, which is still affected by haste after 135 HR. It continues to increase until about 295 HR, at which point DPS and EW uptime are roughly constant at 1715.00 (+26.32) and 92.69 (+0.88% => 2.44 EW AP => 4.88 raid DPS) for +32.2 DPS over what trinket set a) provides at all HR greater than 295.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set is the best theoretically. It is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 295 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 50% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, this rotation is the same as the 1:1.5 except that it already has an extra “auto-steady shot” before the multishots. The a) trinket set provided the most DPS at 1663.30 than the b) at 1654.06 (-9.24) and c) at 1633.83 (-29.47) trinket groups and with only -0.07 EW uptime (=> -0.19 EW AP => -0.38 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 9.24 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Unhasted, trinket set a) also outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation by +3.06 DPS and +0.12 EW Uptime (=> +0.33 EW AP => +0.66 raid DPS) for +3.72 overall DPS. Note that without the 27 HR from my bracers that the 1:1.4 rotation would have initially been outperformed by the 1:1.5.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- Trinket set a) continues to grow steadily with haste rating until the rotation becomes “tight” at about 135 HR, at which point it has about 1730 DPS and 92.45 EW uptime. After 135 HR, both DPS and EW uptime continue to increase but at a much slower rate with about 1775 DPS and 93.04 EW uptime at 1000 HR.
- Trinket set c) continues to grow steadily with haste rating until about 295 HR, at which point it has about 1760 DPS and 93.30 EW uptime. After 295 HR, both DPS and EW uptime continue to increase but at a much slower rate with about 1782 DPS and 93.57 EW uptime at 1000 HR. It catches up to trinket set a) in overall DPS at about 205 HR with at 1000 HR providing about +7 DPS and +0.53 EW uptime for about +10 overall DPS.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set is the best theoretically once again. It is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 205 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 75% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades to make up for the much larger DPS gap when unhasted or with just drums.
- Overall, the 1:1.4 rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation. Not only does it start out with about 3.7 more DPS, it does increasingly more DPS throughout the whole haste range. At the 80 HR of drums it provides about +36 DPS. At the 400 HR of a Haste Potion, it provides about +70 DPS. For a Rapid Fire, it provides about +87 DPS. The 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) is now the new base rotation with:
DPS: 1663.30
SPS: 0.99
EW Uptime: 91.51% (253.71 average EW AP or 507.42 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2170.73
2:1
- Unhasted, this rotation does between -90 and -100 DPS across all 3 trinket sets compared to the 1:1.4 rotation.
- This rotation is only mildly affected by haste throughout the whole range of haste. It increases throughout the whole haste range of 0 to 1000 haste by only 40 DPS from about 1573 to 1612 for trinket sets a) and b) and by about 90 DPS from 1565 to 1654 for trinket set c).
- Trinket set b) initially is the best trinket set and consistently leads trinkets set a) by between 0.5 to 1.5 DPS. Trinket set c) starts off about -8.3 DPS but +0.43 EW uptime for about -6 DPS. However, trinket set c) passes up set b) by about 40 HR and continues to increasingly outperform it throughout the rest of the haste range with doing +49 DPS at 1000 HR.
- This rotation underperforms the 1:1.4 over its complete range of haste. When the 1:1.4 slows down at 135 haste rating, it is doing +138 DPS over the 2:1, and at 1000 haste, the 2:1 is still 128 DPS behind the 1:1.4.
- EW Uptime is generally always greater than 1% more over the whole haste range with the 1:1.4 than with the 2:1.
- Conclusion is that the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.4 rotation and should never be used with a 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
3:2:
- The best trinket set for the 3:2 throughout the whole range of haste is set c) since DST procs a lot. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1536.52 (-127) personal DPS with 90.09% (-0.61) EW uptime, resulting in -130 DPS compared to the 1:1.4.
- As haste increases, the DPS and EW uptime of this rotation increases steadily until about 300 haste. At this point, the rotation does 1722.23 DPS (-22.05) with 92.91% (+0.27) EW uptime, resulting in about -20 overall raid DPS relative to the 1:1.4. Over the rest of the haste range from 250 haste to 1000 haste, this rotation improves only slightly to about 1741 (-34) DPS with 93.16% (+0.12) EW uptime for about -33 overall DPS at 1000 HR.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides no net benefit over the 1:1.4 and should not be used at all with the 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the 1:1 rotation starts between 232 and 269 DPS and between 3.28 and 4.46 EW uptime (between 18 and 25 EW DPS) below the 1:1.4 rotation over the three trinket sets. As haste increases, the both DPS and EW uptime improve rapidly. The 1:1 rotation surpasses the 1:1.4 rotation in overall DPS around 430 haste rating. At 1000 HR, the 1:1 does between 144 and 179 DPS and 2.12 EW uptime (12 EW DPS) better than the 1:1.4 rotation. Thus, the 1:1.4 rotation should be used for all total haste effects less than 430 haste rating, and the 1:1 should be used for total haste effects above it.
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 varies with haste rating between trinket set a) and c). Trinket set b) is always inferior to one or the other, so it is dropped from the 1:1 analysis. Initially, trinket set c) is better than set a) by about 36 total DPS since the 1:1 rotation is very lose with plenty of room for the DST to improve it. By the 430 HR at which the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.4, trinket set c) still leads by about 17 overall DPS. Set a) and c) do equivalent DPS at around 515 haste rating. At 1000 HR, set a) does about 36 more total DPS. Thus, trinket set a) is the best choice for the 1:1 rotation since during the majority of the range for which it is better than the 1:1.4, it outperforms set c) and since set a) is the preferred for the 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 0/20/41 Build with 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Use the 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) as the base rotation when unhasted and when under haste effects of less than 430 haste rating and then use the 1:1 rotation for haste effects greater than 430. Do not use the 1:1.5, 2:1, or 3:2 rotations at all since they will always provide worse overall DPS compared to the preferred rotations.
Results and Observations for the 0/20/41 Build with a 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provided the most DPS at 1660.24 than the b) at 1649.80 (-10.44) and c) at 1631.57 (-28.67) trinket groups and with only -0.10 EW uptime (=> -0.28 EW AP => -0.56 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 10.44 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 135 HR (2.21 weapon speed) for trinket sets a) and b). At this point the rotation becomes tight and any additional haste provides no benefit to those rotations. At this haste cap, the a) trinket set provides 1688.68 DPS and 91.81 EW Uptime, while trinket set c) has 1685.40 DPS (-3.28) and 92.28 EW uptime (+0.47% => +1.30 EW AP => +2.60 raid DPS) for only -0.68 overall DPS.
- Trinket set c) continues to increase in both DPS and EW uptime after the haste cap for the other trinket sets. This is because the DST procs are using the 1:1 rotation, which is still affected by haste after 135 HR. It continues to increase until about 295 HR, at which point DPS and EW uptime are roughly constant at 1715.00 (+26.32) and 92.69 (+0.88% => 2.44 EW AP => 4.88 raid DPS) for +32.2 DPS over what trinket set a) provides at all HR greater than 295.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set is the best theoretically. It is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 295 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 50% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, this rotation is the same as the 1:1.5 except that it already has an extra “auto-steady shot” before the multishots. The a) trinket set provided the most DPS at 1663.30 than the b) at 1654.06 (-9.24) and c) at 1633.83 (-29.47) trinket groups and with only -0.07 EW uptime (=> -0.19 EW AP => -0.38 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 9.24 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Unhasted, trinket set a) also outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation by +3.06 DPS and +0.12 EW Uptime (=> +0.33 EW AP => +0.66 raid DPS) for +3.72 overall DPS. Note that without the 27 HR from my bracers that the 1:1.4 rotation would have initially been outperformed by the 1:1.5.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- Trinket set a) continues to grow steadily with haste rating until the rotation becomes “tight” at about 135 HR, at which point it has about 1730 DPS and 92.45 EW uptime. After 135 HR, both DPS and EW uptime continue to increase but at a much slower rate with about 1775 DPS and 93.04 EW uptime at 1000 HR.
- Trinket set c) continues to grow steadily with haste rating until about 295 HR, at which point it has about 1760 DPS and 93.30 EW uptime. After 295 HR, both DPS and EW uptime continue to increase but at a much slower rate with about 1782 DPS and 93.57 EW uptime at 1000 HR. It catches up to trinket set a) in overall DPS at about 205 HR with at 1000 HR providing about +7 DPS and +0.53 EW uptime for about +10 overall DPS.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set is the best theoretically once again. It is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 205 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 75% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades to make up for the much larger DPS gap when unhasted or with just drums.
- Overall, the 1:1.4 rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation. Not only does it start out with about 3.7 more DPS, it does increasingly more DPS throughout the whole haste range. At the 80 HR of drums it provides about +36 DPS. At the 400 HR of a Haste Potion, it provides about +70 DPS. For a Rapid Fire, it provides about +87 DPS. The 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) is now the new base rotation with:
DPS: 1663.30
SPS: 0.99
EW Uptime: 91.51% (253.71 average EW AP or 507.42 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2170.73
2:1
- Unhasted, this rotation does between -90 and -100 DPS across all 3 trinket sets compared to the 1:1.4 rotation.
- This rotation is only mildly affected by haste throughout the whole range of haste. It increases throughout the whole haste range of 0 to 1000 haste by only 40 DPS from about 1573 to 1612 for trinket sets a) and b) and by about 90 DPS from 1565 to 1654 for trinket set c).
- Trinket set b) initially is the best trinket set and consistently leads trinkets set a) by between 0.5 to 1.5 DPS. Trinket set c) starts off about -8.3 DPS but +0.43 EW uptime for about -6 DPS. However, trinket set c) passes up set b) by about 40 HR and continues to increasingly outperform it throughout the rest of the haste range with doing +49 DPS at 1000 HR.
- This rotation underperforms the 1:1.4 over its complete range of haste. When the 1:1.4 slows down at 135 haste rating, it is doing +138 DPS over the 2:1, and at 1000 haste, the 2:1 is still 128 DPS behind the 1:1.4.
- EW Uptime is generally always greater than 1% more over the whole haste range with the 1:1.4 than with the 2:1.
- Conclusion is that the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.4 rotation and should never be used with a 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
3:2:
- The best trinket set for the 3:2 throughout the whole range of haste is set c) since DST procs a lot. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set.
- Unhasted, this rotation does 1536.52 (-127) personal DPS with 90.09% (-0.61) EW uptime, resulting in -130 DPS compared to the 1:1.4.
- As haste increases, the DPS and EW uptime of this rotation increases steadily until about 300 haste. At this point, the rotation does 1722.23 DPS (-22.05) with 92.91% (+0.27) EW uptime, resulting in about -20 overall raid DPS relative to the 1:1.4. Over the rest of the haste range from 250 haste to 1000 haste, this rotation improves only slightly to about 1741 (-34) DPS with 93.16% (+0.12) EW uptime for about -33 overall DPS at 1000 HR.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides no net benefit over the 1:1.4 and should not be used at all with the 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the 1:1 rotation starts between 232 and 269 DPS and between 3.28 and 4.46 EW uptime (between 18 and 25 EW DPS) below the 1:1.4 rotation over the three trinket sets. As haste increases, the both DPS and EW uptime improve rapidly. The 1:1 rotation surpasses the 1:1.4 rotation in overall DPS around 430 haste rating. At 1000 HR, the 1:1 does between 144 and 179 DPS and 2.12 EW uptime (12 EW DPS) better than the 1:1.4 rotation. Thus, the 1:1.4 rotation should be used for all total haste effects less than 430 haste rating, and the 1:1 should be used for total haste effects above it.
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 varies with haste rating between trinket set a) and c). Trinket set b) is always inferior to one or the other, so it is dropped from the 1:1 analysis. Initially, trinket set c) is better than set a) by about 36 total DPS since the 1:1 rotation is very lose with plenty of room for the DST to improve it. By the 430 HR at which the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.4, trinket set c) still leads by about 17 overall DPS. Set a) and c) do equivalent DPS at around 515 haste rating. At 1000 HR, set a) does about 36 more total DPS. Thus, trinket set a) is the best choice for the 1:1 rotation since during the majority of the range for which it is better than the 1:1.4, it outperforms set c) and since set a) is the preferred for the 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 0/20/41 Build with 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Use the 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) as the base rotation when unhasted and when under haste effects of less than 430 haste rating and then use the 1:1 rotation for haste effects greater than 430. Do not use the 1:1.5, 2:1, or 3:2 rotations at all since they will always provide worse overall DPS compared to the preferred rotations.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 3 of 4
Results and Observations for the 7/20/34 Build with a 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provided the most DPS at 1680.44 than the b) at 1670.78 (-9.66) and c) at 1662.48 (-17.96) trinket groups and with only -0.28 EW uptime -1.55 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 9.66 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) by a minimum of 7 DPS with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 135 HR (2.21 weapon speed) for all trinket sets. At this point the base rotation becomes tight for trinkets set a) and any additional haste provides no benefit to its base rotations, although trinket set c) still receives benefits from haste from the 1:1 used during DST procs. However, sets DPS and EW uptime do not become stagnate since the 1:1.4 rotation used during the Quickshot procs continues to tighten slightly under haste. At this 135 HR, trinket set c) becomes the best trinket set.
- At about 185 haste rating, the 1:1 rotation becomes better for use during Quickshot procs so DPS and EW uptime start to increase more rapidly with haste again.
- At about 390 haste rating a “wall” is hit for all trinket sets after which DPS and EW uptime improvements are small. At 390 HR, trinket set a) actually catches set c) in DPS but still trails slightly in EW uptime for about -2.5 overall DPS. At 390 HR, set c) does 1779 DPS with 91.61 EW uptime.
- Over the last 610 haste rating, DPS only increases by about 3 with 0.04 EW uptime improvement.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set or c) may be the best theoretically. a) is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 135 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 50% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades.
- Compared to the 1:1.4 rotation for the 0/20/41 build, the results are a little complicated due to the differing nature of how the two build/rotation sets are affected over the haste range and the much greater EW uptime for the 0/20/41 build.
- At 0 HR, the 0/20/41 1:1.4 provides about -6 DPS compared to trinket set a). However, the baseline rotation quickly surpasses these 1:1.5 rotations by about 10 HR with doing about +31 DPS at the 80 HR of drums. At about 175 HR, the benefits of the 0/20/41 max out at about +37 DPS after which these 1:1.5 rotations start to gain ground again until they catch the 0/20/41 rotation at about 325 HR. The 1:1.5 rotations increasingly pull ahead until a maximum of +21 DPS at 395 HR. From that maximum at 395, the 0/20/41 1:1.4 narrows the gap with roughly catching back up at about 700 HR. For the last 300 HR, the rotations/builds are roughly identical in overall DPS.
- Due to this complex back and forth between the best 0/20/41 rotation and these rotations, it is really hard to quantify which is better. Considering that typical haste amounts besides drums slightly favor these 1:1.5 rotations, I would have to slightly favor them as the better DPS choice. However, since the DPS gain is small and not uniform, I personally would still prefer the 0/20/41 build for the additional utility from Readiness, but that is my personal preference.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Trinket set a) outperforms sets b) and c) throughout the whole haste range, so they will not be included in the remainder of the analysis for this rotation.
- Throughout the whole haste range, this rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation in both DPS and EW uptime. So the comparison over the rest of this analysis will be against the 0/20/41 1:1.4 (called base).
- Compared to base, unhasted, this rotation 1686 DPS with 89.66 EW uptime for about +12 DPS.
- With just about 10 HR, the base rotation starts to outperform this rotation due to the much better EW uptime of the base. The maximum benefit of the base is achieved at about 110 HR at about +7.5 overall DPS. This small gain is nullified shortly after 185 HR when the 1:1 rotation becomes better for Quickshots.
- At about 395 HR, this rotation start to slow down its gains in DPS and EW uptime with haste. At 395 HR, it does about 1825 DPS with 91.80 EW uptime for +80 DPS over the base.
- At 1000 HR, this rotation does 1839 DPS with 91.97 EW uptime for +70 DPS over the base as the base slightly gains a little back.
- Thus, overall the 7/20/34 1:1.4 rotation outperforms the 0/20/41 1:1.4 rotation. It is superior when unhasted and for all haste effects except for drums. The 7/20/34 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) is now the new base rotation with:
DPS: 1685.66
EW Uptime: 89.66% (248.58 average EW AP or 497.16 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2182.82
2:1
- Trinket set c) outperforms trinket sets a) and b) through the whole range of haste and will be used for the remainder of the analysis for this rotation.
- This rotation experiences modest gains in DPS and EW uptime with haste until 105 HR at which the best Quickshot rotation changes from 3:2 to 1:1. After 105 HR, the gains are a little larger until 395 HR after which the gains are small over the remainder of the haste range.
- Compared to the base rotation, this rotation does about -95 DPS unhasted. At about 400 HR, it does about -110 DPS. At 1000 HR, it still does about -110 DPS since the improvements in both rotations are mostly from the common 1:1 Quickshots.
- Conclusion is that the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.4 rotation and should never be used with a 7/20/34 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
3:2:
- The best trinket set for the 3:2 is any. Each trinket set leads over some portion of the haste range, and they all stay with +/-10 DPS of each other. Sets a) and b) stay within +/-2 DPS with a leading until 395 HR and them b) the rest of the way. c) is the best choice until 395 HR and then is passed by a) and b). So pretty much personal preference or depending on how much of your DPS time you are going to be over 395 HR.
- Compared to the base rotation, this rotation does about -105 DPS unhasted. At about 400 HR, it does about -43 DPS. At 1000 HR, it still does about -37 DPS since the improvements in both rotations are mostly from the common 1:1 Quickshots.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides no net benefit over the 1:1.4 and should not be used at all with the 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the 1:1 rotation starts at best -195 DPS compared to the base. As haste increases, the both DPS and EW uptime improve rapidly. The 1:1 rotation surpasses the 1:1.4 rotation in overall DPS around 430 haste rating. At 1000 HR, the 1:1 does between +89 DPS relative to the base. Thus, the 1:1.4 rotation should be used for all total haste effects less than 430 haste rating, and the 1:1 should be used for total haste effects above it.
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 varies with haste rating between trinket set a) and c). Trinket set b) is always inferior to one or the other, so it is dropped from the 1:1 analysis. Initially, trinket set c) is better than set a) by about 36 total DPS since the 1:1 rotation is very lose with plenty of room for the DST to improve it. By the 430 HR at which the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.4, trinket set c) has been surpassed by set a) by about 17 overall DPS. Thus, trinket set a) is the best choice for the 1:1 rotation since during the whole range for which it is better than the 1:1.4, it outperforms set c) and since set a) is the preferred for the 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 7/20/34 Build with 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Use the 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) as the base rotation when unhasted and when under haste effects of less than 430 haste rating and then use the 1:1 rotation for haste effects greater than 430. Do not use the 1:1.5, 2:1, or 3:2 rotations at all since they will always provide worse overall DPS compared to the preferred rotations.
Results and Observations for the 7/20/34 Build with a 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provided the most DPS at 1680.44 than the b) at 1670.78 (-9.66) and c) at 1662.48 (-17.96) trinket groups and with only -0.28 EW uptime -1.55 raid DPS). Thus, the base a) trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 9.66 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations.
- Throughout the whole haste range, trinket set a) out performs trinket set b) by a minimum of 7 DPS with having the same EW uptime. Thus, trinket set b) is not involved in the additional discussion for this rotation.
- DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 135 HR (2.21 weapon speed) for all trinket sets. At this point the base rotation becomes tight for trinkets set a) and any additional haste provides no benefit to its base rotations, although trinket set c) still receives benefits from haste from the 1:1 used during DST procs. However, sets DPS and EW uptime do not become stagnate since the 1:1.4 rotation used during the Quickshot procs continues to tighten slightly under haste. At this 135 HR, trinket set c) becomes the best trinket set.
- At about 185 haste rating, the 1:1 rotation becomes better for use during Quickshot procs so DPS and EW uptime start to increase more rapidly with haste again.
- At about 390 haste rating a “wall” is hit for all trinket sets after which DPS and EW uptime improvements are small. At 390 HR, trinket set a) actually catches set c) in DPS but still trails slightly in EW uptime for about -2.5 overall DPS. At 390 HR, set c) does 1779 DPS with 91.61 EW uptime.
- Over the last 610 haste rating, DPS only increases by about 3 with 0.04 EW uptime improvement.
- Overall for this rotation, the a) trinket set or c) may be the best theoretically. a) is better unhasted and when affected by haste drums. Trinket set c) will be better only if under haste effects of greater than 135 HR such as haste potions, rapid fires, and heroisms/bloodlust for roughly 50% of your DPS time with assuming perfect switching between the 1:1.5 rotation and the 1:1 when the DST procs and fades.
- Compared to the 1:1.4 rotation for the 0/20/41 build, the results are a little complicated due to the differing nature of how the two build/rotation sets are affected over the haste range and the much greater EW uptime for the 0/20/41 build.
- At 0 HR, the 0/20/41 1:1.4 provides about -6 DPS compared to trinket set a). However, the baseline rotation quickly surpasses these 1:1.5 rotations by about 10 HR with doing about +31 DPS at the 80 HR of drums. At about 175 HR, the benefits of the 0/20/41 max out at about +37 DPS after which these 1:1.5 rotations start to gain ground again until they catch the 0/20/41 rotation at about 325 HR. The 1:1.5 rotations increasingly pull ahead until a maximum of +21 DPS at 395 HR. From that maximum at 395, the 0/20/41 1:1.4 narrows the gap with roughly catching back up at about 700 HR. For the last 300 HR, the rotations/builds are roughly identical in overall DPS.
- Due to this complex back and forth between the best 0/20/41 rotation and these rotations, it is really hard to quantify which is better. Considering that typical haste amounts besides drums slightly favor these 1:1.5 rotations, I would have to slightly favor them as the better DPS choice. However, since the DPS gain is small and not uniform, I personally would still prefer the 0/20/41 build for the additional utility from Readiness, but that is my personal preference.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Trinket set a) outperforms sets b) and c) throughout the whole haste range, so they will not be included in the remainder of the analysis for this rotation.
- Throughout the whole haste range, this rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation in both DPS and EW uptime. So the comparison over the rest of this analysis will be against the 0/20/41 1:1.4 (called base).
- Compared to base, unhasted, this rotation 1686 DPS with 89.66 EW uptime for about +12 DPS.
- With just about 10 HR, the base rotation starts to outperform this rotation due to the much better EW uptime of the base. The maximum benefit of the base is achieved at about 110 HR at about +7.5 overall DPS. This small gain is nullified shortly after 185 HR when the 1:1 rotation becomes better for Quickshots.
- At about 395 HR, this rotation start to slow down its gains in DPS and EW uptime with haste. At 395 HR, it does about 1825 DPS with 91.80 EW uptime for +80 DPS over the base.
- At 1000 HR, this rotation does 1839 DPS with 91.97 EW uptime for +70 DPS over the base as the base slightly gains a little back.
- Thus, overall the 7/20/34 1:1.4 rotation outperforms the 0/20/41 1:1.4 rotation. It is superior when unhasted and for all haste effects except for drums. The 7/20/34 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) is now the new base rotation with:
DPS: 1685.66
EW Uptime: 89.66% (248.58 average EW AP or 497.16 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2182.82
2:1
- Trinket set c) outperforms trinket sets a) and b) through the whole range of haste and will be used for the remainder of the analysis for this rotation.
- This rotation experiences modest gains in DPS and EW uptime with haste until 105 HR at which the best Quickshot rotation changes from 3:2 to 1:1. After 105 HR, the gains are a little larger until 395 HR after which the gains are small over the remainder of the haste range.
- Compared to the base rotation, this rotation does about -95 DPS unhasted. At about 400 HR, it does about -110 DPS. At 1000 HR, it still does about -110 DPS since the improvements in both rotations are mostly from the common 1:1 Quickshots.
- Conclusion is that the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.4 rotation and should never be used with a 7/20/34 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
3:2:
- The best trinket set for the 3:2 is any. Each trinket set leads over some portion of the haste range, and they all stay with +/-10 DPS of each other. Sets a) and b) stay within +/-2 DPS with a leading until 395 HR and them b) the rest of the way. c) is the best choice until 395 HR and then is passed by a) and b). So pretty much personal preference or depending on how much of your DPS time you are going to be over 395 HR.
- Compared to the base rotation, this rotation does about -105 DPS unhasted. At about 400 HR, it does about -43 DPS. At 1000 HR, it still does about -37 DPS since the improvements in both rotations are mostly from the common 1:1 Quickshots.
- Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides no net benefit over the 1:1.4 and should not be used at all with the 0/20/41 build at 2.8 base weapon speed.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the 1:1 rotation starts at best -195 DPS compared to the base. As haste increases, the both DPS and EW uptime improve rapidly. The 1:1 rotation surpasses the 1:1.4 rotation in overall DPS around 430 haste rating. At 1000 HR, the 1:1 does between +89 DPS relative to the base. Thus, the 1:1.4 rotation should be used for all total haste effects less than 430 haste rating, and the 1:1 should be used for total haste effects above it.
- The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 varies with haste rating between trinket set a) and c). Trinket set b) is always inferior to one or the other, so it is dropped from the 1:1 analysis. Initially, trinket set c) is better than set a) by about 36 total DPS since the 1:1 rotation is very lose with plenty of room for the DST to improve it. By the 430 HR at which the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.4, trinket set c) has been surpassed by set a) by about 17 overall DPS. Thus, trinket set a) is the best choice for the 1:1 rotation since during the whole range for which it is better than the 1:1.4, it outperforms set c) and since set a) is the preferred for the 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 7/20/34 Build with 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Use the 1:1.4 rotation with trinket set a) as the base rotation when unhasted and when under haste effects of less than 430 haste rating and then use the 1:1 rotation for haste effects greater than 430. Do not use the 1:1.5, 2:1, or 3:2 rotations at all since they will always provide worse overall DPS compared to the preferred rotations.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 2.8 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 4 of 4
Overall Recommendation for 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
From the previous information provided, one might arrive at the conclusion that the 7/20/34 build with 1:1.4 rotation under 430 HR and 1:1 above it would be best. But that is not necessarily the case since the above analysis neither compared every rotation against each other nor compared the specs over the rotations that are best over each haste region.
In fact, when comparing the recommendation for the 0/20/41 and 7/20/34 builds, there are 3 switches in regions for which is better. Unhasted, the 7/20/34 is better by about 12 DPS. By 20 HR, the 0/20/41 build starts to perform better with benefits hitting a maximum of about +8 DPS at 135 HR. At about 210 HR, the 7/20/34 becomes better again and continues to increase relatively to a maximum of about 70 DPS at 395 HR. By 605 HR, the 0/20/41 build becomes better and remains better with +34 DPS at 1000 HR.
Thus, which build is better depends on in which haste regions your normally operate. The 7/20/34 build is better unhasted, but adding an additional haste item can make the 0/20/41 build be better unhasted as well as for drums. The 7/20/34 build is better for Haste Potions and Bloodlusts alone or Haste Potions with Haste Drums. The 0/20/41 build is better for any Rapid Fire, and Bloodlusts combined with any other haste effect.
My plan if I am still using a 2.8 base speed ranged weapon when I get the four set bonus is to hopefully find an upgrade that has at least 20 HR too so that the 0/20/41 build is the best unhasted. Then considering that I am normally responsible for my own haste via drums (sometimes I get drums from another group member), haste potions (which I do not use as much as I would like since I usually need to use mana potions), and rapid fires, which Readiness allows more of, the 0/20/41 build is probably the better DPS option for me and also allows extra utility from Readiness, such as to help get the MTs initial threat up with an extra MD and manage my initial threat better with an extra FD.
Overall Recommendation for 2.8 Base Ranged weapon Speed
From the previous information provided, one might arrive at the conclusion that the 7/20/34 build with 1:1.4 rotation under 430 HR and 1:1 above it would be best. But that is not necessarily the case since the above analysis neither compared every rotation against each other nor compared the specs over the rotations that are best over each haste region.
In fact, when comparing the recommendation for the 0/20/41 and 7/20/34 builds, there are 3 switches in regions for which is better. Unhasted, the 7/20/34 is better by about 12 DPS. By 20 HR, the 0/20/41 build starts to perform better with benefits hitting a maximum of about +8 DPS at 135 HR. At about 210 HR, the 7/20/34 becomes better again and continues to increase relatively to a maximum of about 70 DPS at 395 HR. By 605 HR, the 0/20/41 build becomes better and remains better with +34 DPS at 1000 HR.
Thus, which build is better depends on in which haste regions your normally operate. The 7/20/34 build is better unhasted, but adding an additional haste item can make the 0/20/41 build be better unhasted as well as for drums. The 7/20/34 build is better for Haste Potions and Bloodlusts alone or Haste Potions with Haste Drums. The 0/20/41 build is better for any Rapid Fire, and Bloodlusts combined with any other haste effect.
My plan if I am still using a 2.8 base speed ranged weapon when I get the four set bonus is to hopefully find an upgrade that has at least 20 HR too so that the 0/20/41 build is the best unhasted. Then considering that I am normally responsible for my own haste via drums (sometimes I get drums from another group member), haste potions (which I do not use as much as I would like since I usually need to use mana potions), and rapid fires, which Readiness allows more of, the 0/20/41 build is probably the better DPS option for me and also allows extra utility from Readiness, such as to help get the MTs initial threat up with an extra MD and manage my initial threat better with an extra FD.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot?
2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right?
3) Do survival hunters use haste potions
4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions?
5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros
thanks
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot?
2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right?
3) Do survival hunters use haste potions
4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions?
5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros
thanks
Last edited by joms : 07/10/08 at 6:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by joms
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot? 2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right? 3) Do survival hunters use haste potions 4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions? 5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros thanks |
Being 0/20/41 Multishot is always worth casting unless there's a really really good reason not to use it, such as Crowd Control. I believe the whole point of Imp. Arcane builds is to eliminate Multishot from your damage cycle, but I'm not terribly familiar with those builds. I'm always kiting things in Hyjal when I'm not tanking dragons but Multishot is a pretty crappy AoE. Better then nothing though and Barrage would improve that slightly.
Shooting a 1.x:1, basically anything that isn't some ratio of only steadies and autos, generally means chain-chugging Fel Mana potions like they were going out of style. I would imagine some fights and raid/group makeups would let you use haste pots instead, but I would suspect those situations are extremely rare. I know the only time I haven't burnt a Fel Mana pot every 2 minutes is during farm content and then burning a haste pot wouldn't really be necessary either. For what it's worth, once I can find a haste potion recipe that isn't comically overpriced I intend to carry a stack with me "just in case" but I can't recall a situation where I could have afforded to use one, where hitting a potion of some sort was really needed.
I use the two-part /click macro for my Steady Shot in a manual rotation, and when I get haste from a Heroism/Rapid Fire/DST proc/whatever I switch to spamming the macro. Since it deals with varying amounts of haste so well, it is really nice to use. Even mashing it once works out great in a manual shot rotation since it also fires Kill Command and Lightning Breath.
I haven't seen a 1.x:1 macro that really worked well for me, so I manually fire my shots, but most of the ones I've seen are some form of a /cast /cast macro with a /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multishot or whatever thrown in somewhere. For 1:1, 2:1 and 3:2 I would recommend the Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macro which is the /click macro I mentioned that I use.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by joms
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot? 2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right? 3) Do survival hunters use haste potions 4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions? 5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 Macros thanks |
Although many folks like it and use it, I find an IAS build an even bigger waste of talent points. Sure it provides a tight 1:1.5 rotation (depending on base weapon speed) that you can use for more DPS when CC is around than scaling back to a 1:1.3 since you can't use multi around CC for a non-IAS build. However, that is really maximizing your DPS for trash and not for bosses. Since you can already get a good 1:1.5 rotation using multishot without spending 3-5 points in IAS, since multishot should do more damage than arcane shot, and since multishot does better damage per mana than arcane shot (9.7 versus 7.73 for arcane without anhy Barrage talents), I prefer spending the points in other talents instead of IAS. For me, going to an IAS build with assuming I only need 4 points in the talent, costs me 27 personal DPS, -7.6 raid DPS from less EW uptime, and other similar loses as indicated with going with Barrage. I have no problem with switching to the lower 1:1.3 DPS rotation around trash, since it is just trash.
However, do not take my word for it. Check it out yourself.
2) Unless there is CC that I shouldn't break (and sometimes even when there is), I always use multishot on both bosses and trash. Even without Barrage talents, it is my biggest damaging shot on single targets. For me it does on average 2185 damage as compared to 1455 for arcane shot and 1860 for both auto and steady shots. Thus, everytime I use arcane shot when I could have used a multishot, I lose about 730 damage. Sure multishot costs more mana, but it is more mana efficient than arcane shot since it does more damage per point of mana spent as listed earlier.
3) You bet we do. However, unless we have good mana support in the raid or group, we are usually more mana constricted than BM hunters, especially if we have IHM instead of Efficiency or if our crit rate is low and doesn't generate much mana with TotH, and our ability to use haste potions may be limited by our need to use mana potions to maintain our maximum DPS rotations. So if you have mana to spare, using a haste potion (and modifying your rotation as neccessary to take advantage of it) will increase your DPS.
Personally, I usually do not get much mana support, and I have IHM instead of Efficiency to more fully buff the physical DPS targets. Thus, I do not get to use mana potions as much as I would like. However, on DPS races where I feel I need to use at least one and will have sufficient mana to do so, I will use it at the very beginning of the fight before I use my back to back rapid fires so that I will be able to use a mana potion about 2 mins into the battle.
4) Yes, under appropriate haste conditions, you should switch to the appropriate rotation that provides the maximum. For what haste rating to switch rotations at depends on your base weapon speed, your passive haste, and the current temporary haste effects you are under. Since you are in a similar weapon speed situation as I am with the badge crossbow and the BT crafted haste bracers, I would suggest an approach similar to what I have provided in some recent posts. Use a 1:1.4 rotation instead of a 1:1.5 rotation since your passive weapon speed does better with it. Maintain this rotation under all haste effects under 430 haste rating, then switch to a 1:1 rotation under haste effects greater than 430. Avoid doing the 2:1 or 3:2 since they are outperformed by the 1:1.4 below 430 haste and the 1:1 above 430 haste. So for drums only, keep up the 1:1.4. For bloodlusts or rapid fires, use a 1:1. For haste potions alone, the 1:1.4 should still be better but going to a 1:1 wouldn't lose you too much DPS.
5) There are several versions of the 3:2, 2:1, 1:1 macro throughout this post. I would prefer not to repeat them an additional time. For the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations, I do not use a macro since there is no ideal macro of which I am aware that both correctly implements the rotation and is flexible with haste. What I do is use the /cast /cast 1:1 macro at all times and then hand weave in the arcane shots and multishots. To squeeze them in between a steady and a auto, I cast them over the last 0.5 seconds of the 1.5s cast of the steady shot. It takes a little practice to get used to and using an attack timer mod like Quartz or something similar helps, but once you get used to it, it becomes second nature. At least that is my preference.
If you have trouble hand-weaving, then there are several serviceable macros available already posted. The ones with /castrandom do not correctly implement the rotations but they are close enough and will perform either a pseudo 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation depending on your weapon speed. The /castsequence macros will correctly perform the rotations but suffer your latency twice (on both the cast and the feedback that the previous cast was successful). If you have lower latency, they are fine. To do a 1:1.4 rotation, just take one for a 1:1.5 and add in an additional auto-steady before one of the specials.
BTW... You may want to update your armory link since your changed realms.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/10/08 at 7:50 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
hi sir. can you post again the macros specially the 1:1.4 and 1:1.5? Is this different to the 1.4:1 and 1.5:1? i tried scrolling back and theres just so many variations such that i dont know anymore which is the right one.....
also, I have 764agility and 32.50% crit rating unbuffed and around 1005agility raid buffed. Is this good enough already for a survival build? Will MT still help me a lot with this crit rating?
also, I have 764agility and 32.50% crit rating unbuffed and around 1005agility raid buffed. Is this good enough already for a survival build? Will MT still help me a lot with this crit rating?
Last edited by joms : 07/10/08 at 11:06 PM.
I assume you are just entering T6 content if your agi is that low, (Not sure if this is you or not armory is being weird but if it is)
You are way over hit cap,Grab a neck that has agility, The SSO exalted one is your best option if your guild isnt killing Kael or Brutallus. Vengeful Helm is big, Daggers of Bad Mojo , Cloak of Fiends. MT is very usefull until you can get your crit up to around 36% crit unbuffed.
You are way over hit cap,Grab a neck that has agility, The SSO exalted one is your best option if your guild isnt killing Kael or Brutallus. Vengeful Helm is big, Daggers of Bad Mojo , Cloak of Fiends. MT is very usefull until you can get your crit up to around 36% crit unbuffed.
@Whitefyst
Great work! Looking forward to a 3.0 base speed analysis. Especially interesting are the relations between haste and spec in the conclusion. Could use a bit more emphasis on the breaking points for the more common rotations: 2:1-->3:2-->1:1 but definately a lovely read.
Will be rooting for that Bristleblitz!
Great work! Looking forward to a 3.0 base speed analysis. Especially interesting are the relations between haste and spec in the conclusion. Could use a bit more emphasis on the breaking points for the more common rotations: 2:1-->3:2-->1:1 but definately a lovely read.
Will be rooting for that Bristleblitz!
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Originally Posted by Cable
@Whitefyst
Great work! Looking forward to a 3.0 base speed analysis. Especially interesting are the relations between haste and spec in the conclusion. Could use a bit more emphasis on the breaking points for the more common rotations: 2:1-->3:2-->1:1 but definately a lovely read. Will be rooting for that Bristleblitz! |
Hope to get the 3.0 speed analysis with Bristleblitz done sometime next week, but as a forewarning, it will not be a true 1 to 1 comparison with the 2.8 speed analysis since I will be adding in at least 63 passive haste (at least 80 total) to get to the "optimum" base weapon speed that people have determined for a 3.0 speed weapon. Thus, the gear will not be the same resulting in the numbers, even when moving that additional passive haste down my tables, will not be directly comparable, although they should provide good rough trending information.
I think someone needs to make a graph of draw speeds that depicts what rotation is best at a certain amount of haste, starting at both 2.8 and 3.0 base speeds.
*wink wink Whitefyst*
*wink wink Whitefyst*
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by nutteh
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No it really isnt. It doesnt look like you got burned on the fight, had two drummers in your group, got a bloodlust, and had plenty of mana. Brut was debuffed with CoR and the other usual stuff. Additionally you were in a group with other BM hunters getting their FI procs. In worse gear I do around 2350 on that fight just using the auto / steady spam macro.
edit: having said that, there are subtle things that can make your dps on a fight like that swing a decent amount. Burn being one of them but there are others. If you are consistently pulling 2k in what feels like a perfect raid environment then look into it more. Part of it might be your choice of shot rotations. Are you able to make the best use of the haste available, etc.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 07/11/08 at 2:04 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
4pc ARENA gear SV hunter
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Originally Posted by joms
Given that i will use a 23/36 or something like this
1) To those who have chosen the talent "barrage", do you think it is much better than getting improved arcane shot? 2) Do you use Multi-shot on boss fights even if there is only 1 target? If not then barrage would only be useful in mob fights like those in the hyjal waves.... right? 3) Do survival hunters use haste potions 4) Do you switch to a 3:2 Macro or another macro when firing Rapid Fire or if using haste potions? 5) Can you paste a sample of the 1.5:1 / 1:1 / 1.4:1 / 2:1 / 3:2 / ETC Macros thanks |
Along these lines, someone please give me an idea of the feasibility/performance of this idea... I don't have the pvp gear to do it yet, nor have we made much progress into BT... our guild wants to kill kael and vashj before we go there... so no 4pc T6 to consider yet either. Only considering T5 gear and badge gear here:
TALENT BUILD: Take the 23/36 hybrid build (or a slight modification) and spec to improve multishot as much as possible (likely only the barrage talent +the usual other stuff).
GEAR BUILD: Here's the wierd part... since some of the pvp gear is better that a lot of the T5 gear from a straight dps point of view (assuming you have surefooted and, thus, can take the hit rating loss). GET 4pc OF ARENA GEAR, making sure to use the gloves as one of the four pieces!
BENEFITS: You have 12% increased damage to multishot from talents, you get another 5% increased damage from your gloves AND you get the multishot cooldown reduced from 10 to 9 seconds! Since I'm using the badge bow (remember we haven't killed archi or anything in BT yet) I pretty much have to shoot a 1:1.4 rotation because I shoot Just a bit too fast to get a real 1:1.5! however, the 4pc set bonus from arena gear should be enough to make the rotation 1:1.5 work again (Kind of like how the 4/5 points in IAS lets you squeeze your next arcane in one auto-steady pair sooner)!
The four Arena pieces I would use are the helm, the chest, the gloves and the shoulders... might actually take the pants since, with my low arena rating, I'll probably be doomed to only using S2 shoulders.
I also can't test this out yet as I don't have the requisite arena items to make this work and I can't really tell if Cheeky's spreadsheet properly models the reduced multishot cooldown set bonus from the gear.
This worth investigating or do I lose out on huge dps somewhere that I'm not realizing?
Last edited by Barradin : 07/11/08 at 3:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by Barradin
Along these lines, someone please give me an idea of the feasibility/performance of this idea... I don't have the pvp gear to do it yet, nor have we made much progress into BT... our guild wants to kill kael and vashj before we go there... so no 4pc T6 to consider yet either. Only considering T5 gear and badge gear here:
TALENT BUILD: Take the 23/36 hybrid build (or a slight modification) and spec to improve multishot as much as possible (likely only the barrage talent +the usual other stuff). GEAR BUILD: Here's the wierd part... since some of the pvp gear is better that a lot of the T5 gear from a straight dps point of view (assuming you have surefooted and, thus, can take the hit rating loss). GET 4pc OF ARENA GEAR, making sure to use the gloves as one of the four pieces! BENEFITS: You have 12% increased damage to multishot from talents, you get another 5% increased damage from your gloves AND you get the multishot cooldown reduced from 10 to 9 seconds! Since I'm using the badge bow (remember we haven't killed archi or anything in BT yet) I pretty much have to shoot a 1:1.4 rotation because I shoot Just a bit too fast to get a real 1:1.5! however, the 4pc set bonus from arena gear should be enough to make the rotation 1:1.5 work again (Kind of like how the 4/5 points in IAS lets you squeeze your next arcane in one auto-steady pair sooner)! The four Arena pieces I would use are the helm, the chest, the gloves and the shoulders... might actually take the pants since, with my low arena rating, I'll probably be doomed to only using S2 shoulders. I also can't test this out yet as I don't have the requisite arena items to make this work and I can't really tell if Cheeky's spreadsheet properly models the reduced multishot cooldown set bonus from the gear. This worth investigating or do I lose out on huge dps somewhere that I'm not realizing? |
Cheeky's spreadsheet certainly appears to model the glove and 4-piece Gladiator buffs to Multishot. The Calculations tab shows a 9-second Multi cooldown, and there are cells dedicated to "PvP Gloves" and "Barrage". I'd try your gear in the spreadsheet, then swap in the PvP pieces you are looking at, but my bet is it would be lower in damage then PvE gear with a 1.4:1 and 0/20/41. Though again, the S2/S3 hat and S2/S3 shoulders are pretty nice depending on what other alternatives you have for those slots.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Kaetrii
I think someone needs to make a graph of draw speeds that depicts what rotation is best at a certain amount of haste, starting at both 2.8 and 3.0 base speeds.
*wink wink Whitefyst* |
Total Haste Rating = Passive Haste Rating + Total Temporary Haste Rating
Total.....Total.........2.8........2.8..........3.0........3.0
Haste....Haste....Weapon....Best.......Weapon...Best
Rating..Percent ...Speed....Rotation....Speed...Rotation
=======================================
0..........0.00%.......2.43......1:1.5........2.61......TBD
25........1.59%.......2.40......1:1.4........2.57...................<------ 2.8 switch to 1:1.4 at about 20 HR
50........3.18%.......2.36......................2.53
75........4.78%.......2.32......................2.49...................<------ Haste Drums at 80 HR
100......6.37%.......2.29......................2.45
125......7.96%.......2.26......................2.42
150......9.55%.......2.22......................2.38
175......11.15%......2.19......................2.35
200......12.74%......2.16......................2.31
225......14.33%......2.13......................2.28
250......15.92%......2.10......................2.25...................<------ Quick Shots (QS) at 15%
275......17.52%......2.07......................2.22
300......19.11%......2.04......................2.19
325......20.70%......2.02......................2.16...................<------ Dragonspine Trophy (DST)
350......22.29%......1.99......................2.13
375......23.89%......1.97......................2.11
400......25.48%......1.94......................2.08...................<------ Haste Potion at 400 HR
425......27.07%......1.92......................2.05
450......28.66%......1.89.........1:1........2.03...................<------ 2.8 switch to 1:1 at about 430 HR
475......30.25%......1.87......................2.00
500......31.85%......1.85......................1.98
525......33.44%......1.82......................1.95
550......35.03%......1.80......................1.93...................<------- Bloodlust at about 550 HR also QS + DST
575......36.62%......1.78......................1.91
600......38.22%......1.76......................1.89
625......39.81%......1.74......................1.87...................<------- Rapid Fire at about 625 HR
650......41.40%......1.72......................1.84
675......42.99%......1.70......................1.82
700......44.59%......1.68......................1.80
725......46.18%......1.67......................1.78
750......47.77%......1.65......................1.77
775......49.36%......1.63......................1.75
800......50.96%......1.61......................1.73
825......52.55%......1.60......................1.71
850......54.14%......1.58......................1.69
875......55.73%......1.56......................1.68
900......57.32%......1.55......................1.66
925......58.92%......1.53......................1.64
950......60.51%......1.52......................1.63
975......62.10%......1.50......................1.61
1000....63.69%......1.49......................1.59
As stated previously, having about 20 passive haste rating will allow someone with a 2.8 speed weapon to perform the 1:1.4 rotation as their unhasted rotation for maximum DPS. Having about greater than 30 passive haste rating will making using the 1:1 rotation best with Haste Potions for a 2.8 speed weapon.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/11/08 at 7:04 PM.
ive been trying to read up from the past threads and i just cant find the damn rotations LOL
can you please post the 1:1.4 rotation?
i have 27 passive haste and im using the badge bow (2.8 speed) thus i beleive that the 1:1.4 rotation would be the best for me. I just cant find it! LOL
can you please post the 1:1.4 rotation?
i have 27 passive haste and im using the badge bow (2.8 speed) thus i beleive that the 1:1.4 rotation would be the best for me. I just cant find it! LOL
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Originally Posted by joms
ive been trying to read up from the past threads and i just cant find the damn rotations LOL
can you please post the 1:1.4 rotation? i have 27 passive haste and im using the badge bow (2.8 speed) thus i beleive that the 1:1.4 rotation would be the best for me. I just cant find it! LOL |
steady-multi-auto steady-auto steady-arcane-auto steady-auto steady-auto
That chart is the single best thing I've seen posted in this thread in a long time. I can't wait for the 3.0 to be finished.
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo-OG
1:1.4 is the same as a 1:1.5, only with an extra steady-auto at the end.
steady-multi-auto steady-auto steady-arcane-auto steady-auto steady-auto |
Also is 1:1.5 the same as 1.5:1 which others talk about? Or is it something different?
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Originally Posted by joms
Is there no macro for this? Does everyone who uses 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 just hand weave them?
Also is 1:1.5 the same as 1.5:1 which others talk about? Or is it something different? |
I've never seen a macro that works well for me so I manually weave my 1:1.4, but the ones I have seen are something along the lines of
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
possibly with Kill Command, Lightning Breath and/or some lines to disable error sounds/text thrown in. The problem with these is that it won't always fire things in exactly the right order, but often does things "close enough". Personally these macros tended to produce fairly random results and I'm used to manually weaving shots, so I don't bother with the macro.
The other macro I've seen is some long /castsequence macro with everything written out. The problem with /castsequence is that you suffer your latency twice, since it requires confirmation from the servers before moving to the next element in the sequence, or so I've read, but it ensures everything happens in the order it is supposed to.
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo-OG
I've never seen a macro that works well for me so I manually weave my 1:1.4, but the ones I have seen are something along the lines of
/cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot possibly with Kill Command, Lightning Breath and/or some lines to disable error sounds/text thrown in. The problem with these is that it won't always fire things in exactly the right order, but often does things "close enough". Personally these macros tended to produce fairly random results and I'm used to manually weaving shots, so I don't bother with the macro. The other macro I've seen is some long /castsequence macro with everything written out. The problem with /castsequence is that you suffer your latency twice, since it requires confirmation from the servers before moving to the next element in the sequence, or so I've read, but it ensures everything happens in the order it is supposed to. |
If you have very low latency though, a castsequence will enforce the rotation and still be close to max DPS.
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Originally Posted by Cagem
Progress wise my guild is at the first 2 bosses in BT, but I'm still using Sunfury (2.9) bow.
According to Cheeky's spreadsheet, haste will improve dps considerably. My impression was that the rotation is screwed up by adding haste with my setup, however replacing as below improves my buffed dps from 1219 to 1257: Bands of the Celestial Archer -> Bindings of lightning reflexes S2 shoulders -> Shoulders of lightning reflexes Cloak of the craft -> Crystalweave cape In total that means 90 Haste and lowers my draw speed to 2.39. According to Whitefyst analysis, you are fine running a 1:1.4 on a 2.8 bow with 20 HR, thus 2.4 draw speed. My question is then, will these haste items really increase my dps as the spreadsheet claims, or will it work differently in a real situation and screw my rotation up? |
1) How much in other stats are you giving up to get the passive haste. As long as the additional DPS from the increased shots per second overcomes the loss in average damage per shot, it is not an unhasted downgrad (but may not be an upgrade depending on other factors).
2) Adapting your rotation correctly to account for the haste. If you are using a rotation optimal for a much slower weapon speed on a faster weapon, then the haste (passive or temporary) is not going to be as effective and may not be worth the loss in stats per 1). For instance, if you are using a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.8 speed weapon when under Rapid Fire, a lot of the haste from Rapid Fire is lost. However, if you adapt your rotation properly to take into account the haste, then you can see large dividends on the sacrifice in other stats.
3) Finding the haste "sweet spots for your weapon". For different speed weapons, there are different values of minimum haste needed to be able to switch to the next faster rotation and still have room for temporary haste effects to work. For instance, for a 2.8 speed weapon, getting about 20 passive haste allows the 1:1.4 rotation to be outperform the 1:1.5; however, using a haste potion is still optimal for 1:1.4. Getting a little more passive haste to over 30-35 will allow someone with a 2.8 weapon to optimally use a 1:1.4 when unhasted and when under haste drums and a 1:1 when under haste potions or greater haste effects.
Now for your proposed changes (with assuming BoK and approximate 40 AP = 1% crit conversion):
- For the wrists, the differences are 0.64% crit for the Bands of the Celestial Archer versus 13 AP and 27 haste. This is essentially 27 haste versus 0.32% crit. As long as your rotation is not already tight, the 27 haste definitely wins out. Plus, the haste bracers also have more agility for higher EW AP.
- For the shoulders with assuming 2 +8 agi gems in the s2, the differences are 1.3% crit (and +26 agi) versus 24 AP and 37 haste, which is essentially 0.70% crit and 6.5 more EW AP versus 37 haste. This is a more iffy exchange in my opinion and would depend on the situation.
- For the cloaks, the difference is 33 AP, 0.32% crit, 3.2 EW AP, and 13 hit versus 26 haste. Normally, I would say that no way is the loss in stats for this exchange worth it. However, since that 26 haste does put you over into making the 1:1.4 a better rotation for you, it is possible that it is better. However, without looking at this more deeply, I would think you would be better off unhasted without this cloak change and with doing the 1:1.5. Or better yet since you must not need the hit from the cloak anymore to use the badge agi cloak. Check it out for yourself in Cheeky's and let us know which theoretically works out better (just make sure Cheeky's is actually having you do a 1:1.5 when looking at that rotation).
Just a short while ago I basically decided that I wanted to give a survival spec a go just to get a feel for what playing the spec is like. I did some reading and decided to make a few tests. Just fyi, I'm using Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix still, haven't gotten the Archimonde or Illidan bow yet, I have 27 passive haste (putting me at a 2.48 attack speed) and I have the 4xt6 bonus.
I went to Dr. Boom to try the dps of a few rotations and specs.
Basically I tried the 1:1.5, 1:1.4 and 2:1 rotations for both the 7/20/34 spec and the 0/20/41 spec.
From what I gather unless I can get enough haste to make the 7/20/34 slip into a 3:2 rotation when I get IAotH procs the 0/20/41 spec should give me higher dps. My macro does not slip into a 3:2 with IAotH yet I get more dps out of the 7/20/34 spec. Am I likely missing something that I will have in a raid that will make a difference or should I just go with the 7/20/34 spec and my 2:1 rotation?
Neither 1:1.5 nor 1:1.4 provided a higher dps than the 2:1 and both of the prior ones served only to make me run out of mana sooner. Again, is this something likely to change in a raid environment or does the 4xt6 simply make 2:1 superior to 1:1.5 and 1:1.4?
edit:
also, is there some kind of formula to determine how much the raid benefits from my EW debuff?
Something along the lines of "rogues gain X dps per Y AP and warrior gain Z dps per Y AP". Just a general guideline would be awesome.
I went to Dr. Boom to try the dps of a few rotations and specs.
Basically I tried the 1:1.5, 1:1.4 and 2:1 rotations for both the 7/20/34 spec and the 0/20/41 spec.
From what I gather unless I can get enough haste to make the 7/20/34 slip into a 3:2 rotation when I get IAotH procs the 0/20/41 spec should give me higher dps. My macro does not slip into a 3:2 with IAotH yet I get more dps out of the 7/20/34 spec. Am I likely missing something that I will have in a raid that will make a difference or should I just go with the 7/20/34 spec and my 2:1 rotation?
Neither 1:1.5 nor 1:1.4 provided a higher dps than the 2:1 and both of the prior ones served only to make me run out of mana sooner. Again, is this something likely to change in a raid environment or does the 4xt6 simply make 2:1 superior to 1:1.5 and 1:1.4?
edit:
also, is there some kind of formula to determine how much the raid benefits from my EW debuff?
Something along the lines of "rogues gain X dps per Y AP and warrior gain Z dps per Y AP". Just a general guideline would be awesome.
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Originally Posted by Lohegrin
also, is there some kind of formula to determine how much the raid benefits from my EW debuff?
Something along the lines of "rogues gain X dps per Y AP and warrior gain Z dps per Y AP". Just a general guideline would be awesome. |
I'm thinking fo finally dropping macros when I return to SV, but from what I've gathered, KC is a sizable chunk of our dps. What button configuration do people use (standard wow action bars) to hit KC when it's up with minimized clipping.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
I'm thinking fo finally dropping macros when I return to SV, but from what I've gathered, KC is a sizable chunk of our dps. What button configuration do people use (standard wow action bars) to hit KC when it's up with minimized clipping.
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I have kill command attached to my abilities even when I manually weave.
Then I don't know what to do. I had hoped to be comparable to our BM hunters as SV, but I was lucky to pass 1800. Really lucky. My dps averages around 1900 when fighting Brut as BM, and with my gear I should be seeing more. Is it possible to overspam a macro?
Whitefyst - Thanks for the good replies.
Here is my updated armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
I now have 840 Agility (unbuffed) adn 34.85 crit. Im also using the BBS bow (3.0 speed).
Given these new values, do you still think 20/41 and 1:1.4 would be the best for me?
Im thinking of using this for my 1:1.4 macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
plus the lightning breath once i get my windserpent to lv70
By the way, when you manual weave, do you use this macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
then just shoot multi-shot and arcane shot when it is available and ready?
Here is my updated armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
I now have 840 Agility (unbuffed) adn 34.85 crit. Im also using the BBS bow (3.0 speed).
Given these new values, do you still think 20/41 and 1:1.4 would be the best for me?
Im thinking of using this for my 1:1.4 macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
plus the lightning breath once i get my windserpent to lv70
By the way, when you manual weave, do you use this macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
then just shoot multi-shot and arcane shot when it is available and ready?
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Then I don't know what to do. I had hoped to be comparable to our BM hunters as SV, but I was lucky to pass 1800. Really lucky. My dps averages around 1900 when fighting Brut as BM, and with my gear I should be seeing more. Is it possible to overspam a macro?
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Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Whether haste increases your DPS or not depends on three factors that I have seen:
1) How much in other stats are you giving up to get the passive haste. As long as the additional DPS from the increased shots per second overcomes the loss in average damage per shot, it is not an unhasted downgrad (but may not be an upgrade depending on other factors). 2) Adapting your rotation correctly to account for the haste. If you are using a rotation optimal for a much slower weapon speed on a faster weapon, then the haste (passive or temporary) is not going to be as effective and may not be worth the loss in stats per 1). For instance, if you are using a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.8 speed weapon when under Rapid Fire, a lot of the haste from Rapid Fire is lost. However, if you adapt your rotation properly to take into account the haste, then you can see large dividends on the sacrifice in other stats. 3) Finding the haste "sweet spots for your weapon". For different speed weapons, there are different values of minimum haste needed to be able to switch to the next faster rotation and still have room for temporary haste effects to work. For instance, for a 2.8 speed weapon, getting about 20 passive haste allows the 1:1.4 rotation to be outperform the 1:1.5; however, using a haste potion is still optimal for 1:1.4. Getting a little more passive haste to over 30-35 will allow someone with a 2.8 weapon to optimally use a 1:1.4 when unhasted and when under haste drums and a 1:1 when under haste potions or greater haste effects. Now for your proposed changes (with assuming BoK and approximate 40 AP = 1% crit conversion): - For the wrists, the differences are 0.64% crit for the Bands of the Celestial Archer versus 13 AP and 27 haste. This is essentially 27 haste versus 0.32% crit. As long as your rotation is not already tight, the 27 haste definitely wins out. Plus, the haste bracers also have more agility for higher EW AP. - For the shoulders with assuming 2 +8 agi gems in the s2, the differences are 1.3% crit (and +26 agi) versus 24 AP and 37 haste, which is essentially 0.70% crit and 6.5 more EW AP versus 37 haste. This is a more iffy exchange in my opinion and would depend on the situation. - For the cloaks, the difference is 33 AP, 0.32% crit, 3.2 EW AP, and 13 hit versus 26 haste. Normally, I would say that no way is the loss in stats for this exchange worth it. However, since that 26 haste does put you over into making the 1:1.4 a better rotation for you, it is possible that it is better. However, without looking at this more deeply, I would think you would be better off unhasted without this cloak change and with doing the 1:1.5. Or better yet since you must not need the hit from the cloak anymore to use the badge agi cloak. Check it out for yourself in Cheeky's and let us know which theoretically works out better (just make sure Cheeky's is actually having you do a 1:1.5 when looking at that rotation). |
Note that the dps numbers I operate with does not count in pet dps.
When Using a 1:1.5 rotation I get a dps of 1053 using sunfury (With S2 bow it becomes 1067). Then I only use Bindings of Lightning Reflexes as haste item. I confirm that according to the preadsheet I loose dps when equipping Shoulders of lightning reflexes and Crystalweave Cape. The 1:1.5 rotation does not seem to benefit much from additional haste effects at all. using drums with this rotation only provides 5 extra dps.
When using a 1:1.4 rotation, the extra haste from the shoulders and cape will increase dps. When equipping them, the dps turns out as follows:
Bindings of lightning reflexes - 1043 dps
+Shoulders of lightning reflexes - 1059 dps
+Crystalweave Cape - 1066 dps
The extra haste from drums will then give 1084 dps
It seems that using the 1:1.4 rotation with all three haste items (90) is preferred since this seems to benefit better from additional haste effects than the 1:1.5 rotation does.
Now, I went a bit further to see what the best setup could be. I must admit that it never felt right to replace my DST with the hourglass, even though it seemed to work quite well. I therefore did some experiments in Cheeky's spreadsheet to check if the DST could have any benefit with my spec and setup.
Just to recap. My spec is 0/20/41 and the following experiement was done to compare the use of Hourglass and DST without 4x T6. My other trinket is Bloodlust brooch. These tests also compare the different outcomes of using Sunfury bow (2.9) and S2 bow (3.0).
All rotations below except from 1:1 includes both Multi and arcane.
Sunfury and Hourglass (90 HR) (Best setup using hourglass. ref above)
Normal: 1066 dps (1.4 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: -
RF: 1194 (1:1 rotation)
Sunfury bow and DST (90 HR)
Normal: 1054 dps (1.4 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1146 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1181 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1228 (1:1 rotation)
Sunfury bow and DST (27 HR)
Normal: 1053 dps (1.5 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1113 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1166 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1247 (1:1 rotation)
S2 bow and DST (90 HR)
Normal: 1037 dps (1.4 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1155 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1167 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1257 (1:1 rotation)
S2 bow and DST (27 HR)
Normal: 1067 dps (1.5 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1145 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1169 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1294 (1:1 rotation)
Conclusion
When comparing these, I see that the best setup by far is S2 bow with DST and 27 HR. Using only bindings of lightning reflexes (27 HR) as haste and a 1:1.5 rotation at normal speed, then switching to 1:1.3 rotation when DST procs and 1:1 when I pop Rapid fire. Seems I better get the S3 bow ASAP
It would be great to have some feedback on this even though many may find it not very relevant since it is not at Sunwell progress level.
Last edited by Cagem : Today at 6:12 AM.
What is next gear?
Just respecced Surv to boos the guilds raid dps been BM since i hit 70.
Atm i got this gear: The World of Warcraft Armory (I know my trinkets sucks, been doing BM for the trinket too many times and gruul dosnt seem to drop his trinket for me , any other tips about good trinkets?)
I just got Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix last week in kara, and i have around 105 badges atm. What is the best?
1. Wait untill i get 150 badges and get the Xbow from Badges.
2. Enchant and use the Sunfury bow and get Leggings of the Pursuit for badges (100 BoJ) to upgrade my atm crapy pants. This will increase my agility with about 40 unbuffed.
What is the best upgrade for me and for my raidbuffing?
What is the best rotations i can use? Atm i try to use: AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS- AS and so. Is that the best? It uses alot mana so i have hard time to keep me up on mana.
My guild is doing SSC and TK (some bosses down in both, fast progressing). What items should i spend my DKP on first, What is the best Surv gear parts that i should get my hands on?
Atm i got this gear: The World of Warcraft Armory (I know my trinkets sucks, been doing BM for the trinket too many times and gruul dosnt seem to drop his trinket for me , any other tips about good trinkets?)
I just got Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix last week in kara, and i have around 105 badges atm. What is the best?
1. Wait untill i get 150 badges and get the Xbow from Badges.
2. Enchant and use the Sunfury bow and get Leggings of the Pursuit for badges (100 BoJ) to upgrade my atm crapy pants. This will increase my agility with about 40 unbuffed.
What is the best upgrade for me and for my raidbuffing?
What is the best rotations i can use? Atm i try to use: AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS- AS and so. Is that the best? It uses alot mana so i have hard time to keep me up on mana.
My guild is doing SSC and TK (some bosses down in both, fast progressing). What items should i spend my DKP on first, What is the best Surv gear parts that i should get my hands on?
Don't get the chicken bow for survival.
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Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Then I don't know what to do. I had hoped to be comparable to our BM hunters as SV, but I was lucky to pass 1800. Really lucky. My dps averages around 1900 when fighting Brut as BM, and with my gear I should be seeing more. Is it possible to overspam a macro?
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given that we are farm on hyjal (2hrs clear) and BT (4.5hrs clear) and 2nd boss in sunwell (brutallus),
how would you spec your windserpent? what resist will you max out?
we only do hyjal / BT and some sunwell.
how would you spec your windserpent? what resist will you max out?
we only do hyjal / BT and some sunwell.
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Originally Posted by Anal
Don't get the chicken bow for survival.
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Badge bow looks like a bird and Sunfury bow have Phoenix in the name ..
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by smidefix
I just got Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix last week in kara, and i have around 105 badges atm. What is the best?
1. Wait untill i get 150 badges and get the Xbow from Badges. 2. Enchant and use the Sunfury bow and get Leggings of the Pursuit for badges (100 BoJ) to upgrade my atm crapy pants. This will increase my agility with about 40 unbuffed. What is the best upgrade for me and for my raidbuffing? What is the best rotations i can use? Atm i try to use: AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS- AS and so. Is that the best? It uses alot mana so i have hard time to keep me up on mana. My guild is doing SSC and TK (some bosses down in both, fast progressing). What items should i spend my DKP on first, What is the best Surv gear parts that i should get my hands on? |
I use the badge crossbow myself, and when used propery, it is by far superior to any of the other options I have to use (I have the Wolfslayer, Sunfury, Arcanite Steam Pistol, and Legionkiller) and the 14 hit rating is nice too. Sure it does not have agility on it so you lose a little raid DPS from EW, but the amount of personal DPS gained by far surpassess that loss, especially considering that the extra crit rating helps EW uptime as well as many other abilities.
For me with a 0/20/41 spec, compared to Sunfury with its best rotation (1:1.5) and will hand adjusting in the 14 hit rating difference, the badge xbow does about +34 personal DPS with only -3.3 EW AP or about -6.6 raid DPS from EW. All in all this is +27 overall raid DPS. Factor in the additional DPS gain that the 14 hit rating on the xbow allows by being able to substitute a hit item or gems for better DPS item or gems, and the benefit is even greater.
Now with that said, to prioritize your badge purchases, the Leggings of the Pursuit is the better option, but mostly due to the item from which you are upgrading. Comparing the two on my character, it is +24 personal DPS and +10 EW AP or +20 raid EW DPS for +44 raid DPS. Note though that this is on my character with his other gear and spec, verify the result with your gear and spec.
if you use the sunfury, the 1:1.5 is best (AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS - AS - SS - not the SS added from what you listed). With the badge xbow, suggest the 1:1.4 ((AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS - AS - SS - just add an AS-SS before the MS).
As far as prioritzing your DKP, that is a tricky thing to suggest since opportunity plays a part it. Items to look for in no particular order are:
- Void Reaver Greaves from VR if you do not get the badge pants
- Ranger General Chest from Hydross
- Cobra-Lash Boots from Vashj or Star-Strider Boots from Solarian - I prefer to the Solarian ones, especially since they are easy to get
- Ring of Lethality from Hydross (to replace VE ring as hit ring)
- Tsunami Talisman from Leo
- Cape and neck from Kael if lucky to get those (otherwise what you have is fine until BT/MH)
- 2xNetherbanes from A'lar to outdo Legacy and to allow use of two mana oils
For your helm, suggest getting on an arena team and getting the s3 helm. Its the best survival hunter helm until deep into BT.
For a trinket, look into getting Bloodlust Brooch with badges or if have other badge prioritizes the Hourglass of the Unraveller from BM or Berserker's Call from ZA.
Your shoulders, gloves, wrists, and belt are fine through SSC/TK,; however, when you get the opportunity, suggest getting the badge belt, Belt of the Silent Path, since it is a straight upgrade and since the 23 hit rating on it will allow the replacement of an inferior hit item and the badge mail gloves.
As far as T5 goes, the s3 helm, the VR legs, the Hydross chest, the ZA shoulders, and the badge mail gloves are better. Thus, I would priortize getting these other items over any T5 unless you are able to get a piece for cheap. I personally didn't bother much with the T5 set and only got 2 pieces cheap for the 2-set bonus when farming.
If you are having mana problems, suggest the following if you are not doing this already:
- Use Elixir of Major Mageblood as your Guardian elixir (with Major Agility as your Battle elixir)
- Use Superior Mana Oils on your melee weapons (dual weild if have better DPS option so can use two oils)
- Use Fel Mana pots instead of regular mana pots
- Get 3/3 TotH (3/3 EW is higher priority for you ATM though)
- Replace some of your leather pieces with better mail pieces with int (getting the badge legs will help some with another 450 mana)
Also, with your gear, I recommend avoiding a IAotH build. 0/20/41 with Readiness is what I would recommend. Plus, without an IAotH build, if you are really hurting for mana, it does not hurt you as much to switch to Aspect of the Viper if you need to.
Last edited by Whitefyst : Today at 1:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by jomzjomz
I now have 840 Agility (unbuffed) adn 34.85 crit. Im also using the BBS bow (3.0 speed).
Given these new values, do you still think 20/41 and 1:1.4 would be the best for me? Im thinking of using this for my 1:1.4 macro: /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command plus the lightning breath once i get my windserpent to lv70 By the way, when you manual weave, do you use this macro: /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command then just shoot multi-shot and arcane shot when it is available and ready? |
The first macro doesn't really implement the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation, but is one of the better macros for trying. It will automatically scale to do a pseudo-1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation depending on your attack speed (it will even scale more under larger haste effects).
For the second macro, that is what I use (although the 2-part macro some people refer to works as well). For handweaving, I do not just use MS or Arcane whenever they are available. That would be identical to performing the first macro with not correctly implementing the rotation and with adding in human error. Depending on whether you are using the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4, you use the specials at the appropriate time. For the 1:1.5 that is alternating using MS and Arcane shot after every 2 auto-steady combos. Arcane wiill be available for many seconds before you use it again. For the 1:1.4, you add in a third auto-steady before each MS.
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Originally Posted by smidefix
Do you mean the Badge bow or Sunfury bow with chicken bow?
Badge bow looks like a bird and Sunfury bow have Phoenix in the name .. |
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
whitefyst - Thanks so much for the help.
Anyway, sometimes i see people use this:
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
While some people post this:
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
Which is correct and what's the difference of each?
/cast Arcane Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast Multi-Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
Also is this a good thing to do?
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command, lightning breath
Or do i separate them as this:
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
Thanks so much.
Follow up question: When i was a BM hunter, my pet did 30%+ damage. Now that im a survival hunter, what should be my pet damage?
Anyway, sometimes i see people use this:
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
While some people post this:
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
Which is correct and what's the difference of each?
/cast Arcane Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast Multi-Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
Also is this a good thing to do?
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command, lightning breath
Or do i separate them as this:
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
Thanks so much.
Follow up question: When i was a BM hunter, my pet did 30%+ damage. Now that im a survival hunter, what should be my pet damage?
Last edited by jomzjomz : Today at 7:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by jomzjomz
Follow up question: When i was a BM hunter, my pet did 30%+ damage. Now that im a survival hunter, what should be my pet damage?
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Concerning your pet DPS, for my character, Cheeky's calculates my WS to do about 16.6% of my damage. I looked through some WWS, and it typically does around 14%. Some of this may be due to inefficiencies in casting KC and/or LB, but I believe that the biggest factor is that my pet dies a decent amount with losing his DPS until he is resummoned. Since I do not have IRP and since my pet does a small percentage of my damage, I almost never resummon my pet in the middle of a boss fight, with the exception being during the kite phase of Supremus. Other loses in DPS are due to sending my pet in and out of battle as necessary to avoid AoE effects on the melee. Another reason is that I usually pull mobs with MD and do not send my pet in until after the tank has started attacking or when I switch targets after killing one, I start up my attacks before sending in my pet.
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Originally Posted by Crowbite
1) Without the proper amount of haste, you'll always be doing a 2:1 rotation even with IAotH procs. Going off of Whyfyst reports you would be better of with one of the rotations he suggests.
2) [Cloak of Fiends] + [Valestalker Girdle] + your bracer will bring you above 73 passive haste. Remember though, this number is dependent on the fact that you have regular drums. if you regularly only have 1 or 2 drums, the 3:2 macro may not work for you. You need a total of 153 haste for a IAoftH proc to reduce your shot rotation with a 3.0 Bow |
So you would suggest that i still go ahead with the 7/20/34 and just use the 2:1 rotation with the gear i have? Or do you recommend that I should just stick with 20/41 and wait until i get the DST and/or 80 haste and use the 1:1.4 rotation?
Im really looking foward to the Analysis of the 3.0 speeds. Ive been tryign to find something that works best for my gear and spec but not being able to get a DST has left me kind of hanging in the middle with what i should use. I have the haste and gear for the 2:1 except for a dst..but its performed fairly well. I know it isnt reaching max dps tho. Does the random proc of the dst really stablize the 2:1 rotation that much that I shouldnt be using it without the trinket?
I have updated the rotation switching with haste chart at Post 2392 on Page 96 to include the 3.0 weapon speed analysis results.
The analysis is to follow.
The analysis is to follow.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 1 of 4
Here is the detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with a limited set of trinkets under various haste effects for two main spec options (0/20/41 and 7/20/34) for a 3.0 base speed ranged weapon (e.g. [item]Bristleback Striker[\item]) with the T6 4-set bonus gear. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use for when I finally get the T6 4-set bonus (guild currently working on Archimonde and Illidian so it should be within the next few weeks), and which spec option would be better. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that may be in similar situations.
I have previously done a 2.8 weapon speed analysis (see Post 2375 on page 95).
Please do not directly compare the results from this analysis against that for the 2.8 weapon speed analysis since it is comparing apples to oranges since different gear was used to achieve the recommended 80 passive haste for 3.0 weapon speeds and to maintain hit rating at or near hit cap. Plus, different weapons at the same speed have different attributes. Thus, although these analyses can be used to somewhat compare the [item]Bristleback Striker[\item] against the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes], which were used in these analyses, it cannot be used to compare other weapons of these speeds, such as [Black Bow of the Betrayer]. For weapons of the same speed though, it can be used as a reliable estimate for when to switch rotations (the exact switching point depends a little on the attributes of the weapon but the weapon speed is the overriding factor).
This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization..
If you do not want to read all of the details, I have bolded the key points.
Background and constraints
1) The ranged weapon used in the analysis is the Archimonde crossbow, [Bristleblitz Striker]. Thus, this analysis applies for 3.0 base weapon speed with a 2.56 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. I also have an additional 80 haste rating from [item]Bindings of Lightning Reflexes[\item], [Hard Khorium Band], and [Cloak of Fiends] resulting in a 2.44 unhasted weapon speed.
2) Tried out two trinket sets (left out the [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] option since it seems to be generally inferior). These are (unfortunately I have not won [item]Dragonspine Trophy[\item] yet but I included it in the analysis to determine whether it is worth still trying to get and since it is a item that a lot of other survival hunters have):
a. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
b. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Dragonspine Trophy]
Note that the analysis assumes using [Berserker's Call] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application unless you have it in your shot rotation macro, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical. Also note that [Madness of the Betrayer] exists in all three options since it is a good trinket and I need the 20 hit rating from it to remain capped while using my better DPS items. The analysis also assumed that immediately when the DST proced that the rotation was switched to a 1:1 (even if a 3:2 may be the more ideal for some small range of haste).
3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear with the exception that I replaced my chest ([item]Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard[\item]) and helm ([item]Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm[\item] with their T6 counterparts to get the T6 4-set bonus. Also due to the hit rating loss by replacing the badge crossbow and my cape, I had to replace my neck with [Choker of Vile Intent], my belt with [Boneweave Girdle], and boots with [Quickstrider Moccasins].
4) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning specs.
5) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning buffs, except that resulting agility was 1103.
6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet.
7) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning rotations.
8) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning specs stepping though haste ratings.
9) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning data recorded although to speed the analysis up I didn’t record SPS this time.
10) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning converting EW AP into DPS.
11) For Quickshot procs, I used the rotation during Quickshots that provided the maximum DPS and which was the unhasted rotation or something lower on the list in 7). For instance, when analyzing the 2:1 rotation, 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 were not options to use during Quickshots but 2:1, 3:2, and 1:1 were. When both DST and Quickshots proced, then a 1:1 was used. For the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations, used the 1:1.4 rotation for haste rating between 0 and 235 and then used the 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range. For the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations, used the 3:2 for haste ratings from 0 to 165 and then used 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range.
12) For a quick comparison with the badge crossbow in a few situations, used the same gear setup except with replacing the crossbow for BBS and replacing my normal neck in a rough 1 for 1 hit rating swap. Then recorded data at key points. This is still not a true comparison of the different weapon speed though and only applies between the two specific weapons.
13) The initial baseline rotation for comparison is the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus with the 0/20/41 build. It is also trinket set a) since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides:
DPS: 1667.94
EW Uptime: 91.09% (251.18 average EW AP or 502.36 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2170.30
Here is the detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with a limited set of trinkets under various haste effects for two main spec options (0/20/41 and 7/20/34) for a 3.0 base speed ranged weapon (e.g. [item]Bristleback Striker[\item]) with the T6 4-set bonus gear. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use for when I finally get the T6 4-set bonus (guild currently working on Archimonde and Illidian so it should be within the next few weeks), and which spec option would be better. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that may be in similar situations.
I have previously done a 2.8 weapon speed analysis (see Post 2375 on page 95).
Please do not directly compare the results from this analysis against that for the 2.8 weapon speed analysis since it is comparing apples to oranges since different gear was used to achieve the recommended 80 passive haste for 3.0 weapon speeds and to maintain hit rating at or near hit cap. Plus, different weapons at the same speed have different attributes. Thus, although these analyses can be used to somewhat compare the [item]Bristleback Striker[\item] against the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes], which were used in these analyses, it cannot be used to compare other weapons of these speeds, such as [Black Bow of the Betrayer]. For weapons of the same speed though, it can be used as a reliable estimate for when to switch rotations (the exact switching point depends a little on the attributes of the weapon but the weapon speed is the overriding factor).
This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization..
If you do not want to read all of the details, I have bolded the key points.
Background and constraints
1) The ranged weapon used in the analysis is the Archimonde crossbow, [Bristleblitz Striker]. Thus, this analysis applies for 3.0 base weapon speed with a 2.56 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. I also have an additional 80 haste rating from [item]Bindings of Lightning Reflexes[\item], [Hard Khorium Band], and [Cloak of Fiends] resulting in a 2.44 unhasted weapon speed.
2) Tried out two trinket sets (left out the [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] option since it seems to be generally inferior). These are (unfortunately I have not won [item]Dragonspine Trophy[\item] yet but I included it in the analysis to determine whether it is worth still trying to get and since it is a item that a lot of other survival hunters have):
a. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
b. [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Dragonspine Trophy]
Note that the analysis assumes using [Berserker's Call] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application unless you have it in your shot rotation macro, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical. Also note that [Madness of the Betrayer] exists in all three options since it is a good trinket and I need the 20 hit rating from it to remain capped while using my better DPS items. The analysis also assumed that immediately when the DST proced that the rotation was switched to a 1:1 (even if a 3:2 may be the more ideal for some small range of haste).
3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear with the exception that I replaced my chest ([item]Scaled Drakeskin Chestguard[\item]) and helm ([item]Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm[\item] with their T6 counterparts to get the T6 4-set bonus. Also due to the hit rating loss by replacing the badge crossbow and my cape, I had to replace my neck with [Choker of Vile Intent], my belt with [Boneweave Girdle], and boots with [Quickstrider Moccasins].
4) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning specs.
5) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning buffs, except that resulting agility was 1103.
6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet.
7) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning rotations.
8) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning specs stepping though haste ratings.
9) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning data recorded although to speed the analysis up I didn’t record SPS this time.
10) Same comment as for 2.8 analysis concerning converting EW AP into DPS.
11) For Quickshot procs, I used the rotation during Quickshots that provided the maximum DPS and which was the unhasted rotation or something lower on the list in 7). For instance, when analyzing the 2:1 rotation, 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 were not options to use during Quickshots but 2:1, 3:2, and 1:1 were. When both DST and Quickshots proced, then a 1:1 was used. For the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations, used the 1:1.4 rotation for haste rating between 0 and 235 and then used the 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range. For the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations, used the 3:2 for haste ratings from 0 to 165 and then used 1:1 for the remainder of the haste range.
12) For a quick comparison with the badge crossbow in a few situations, used the same gear setup except with replacing the crossbow for BBS and replacing my normal neck in a rough 1 for 1 hit rating swap. Then recorded data at key points. This is still not a true comparison of the different weapon speed though and only applies between the two specific weapons.
13) The initial baseline rotation for comparison is the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus with the 0/20/41 build. It is also trinket set a) since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides:
DPS: 1667.94
EW Uptime: 91.09% (251.18 average EW AP or 502.36 raid DPS)
Total DPS: 2170.30
Hi guys,
here is my WoW armoury The World of Warcraft Armory
My normal macro as follow:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2.57 !auto shot, steady shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] kill command
/castrandom arcane shot, multi shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Here is my shot rotation with rapid fire, heroism or DST proc:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Problem is i feel i am not optimizing my dps as a SV hunter. I recently specced to SV after being BM for a long time.
I cant link any WWS reports but will do so if I have the chance to.
I would appreciate if anyone gives any feedback/criticism regarding my macro.
Thanks in advance.
here is my WoW armoury The World of Warcraft Armory
My normal macro as follow:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2.57 !auto shot, steady shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] kill command
/castrandom arcane shot, multi shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Here is my shot rotation with rapid fire, heroism or DST proc:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Problem is i feel i am not optimizing my dps as a SV hunter. I recently specced to SV after being BM for a long time.
I cant link any WWS reports but will do so if I have the chance to.
I would appreciate if anyone gives any feedback/criticism regarding my macro.
Thanks in advance.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 2 of 4
Results and Observations for the 0/20/41 Build with a 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1667.94 DPS and 91.09 EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste until about haste of 210, at which point both remain essentially constant thoughout the remainder of the haste range at about 1714 DPS and 91.78 EW uptime.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides 1631.76 (-36.18) DPS and 91.06 (-0.03) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste until about 380 haste, at which point they both remain essentially constant throughout the remainder of the haste range at about 1745 DPS and 92.69 EW uptime. Note that at the 210 haste at which set a) topped off that set b) has roughly caught it.
- Although set b) outperforms set a) throughout the majority of the haste range (210-1000), I would still recommend set a) since it provides the most DPS over the majority of the range you would be using the 1:1.5 rotation (unhasted and only haste drums) since other rotations will be switched to at higher values of haste.
- The badge crossbow with set a) provides 1659.45 (-8.5) DPS and 91.72% (+0.62%) EW uptime unhasted. At the 210 haste that the 3.0 weapon tops off, the badge crossbow does 1676 (-38) DPS and 91.97 (+0.19) EW uptime. This is because the 2.8 speed weapon topped off at about 80 haste (the 135 haste from the 2.8 analysis minus the 53 additional haste in this analysis. Thus, as expected, the BBS performs the 1:1.5 rotation better than the badge crossbow.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1635 (-33) DPS and 90.63 (-0.46) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste throughout the whole range; however, the rate of increase lessens at about 135 haste and then lessens even more around 720 haste. At about 85 haste, it has caught up to the 1:1.5 rotation. At the 210 haste that the 1:1.5 tops off, it does about 1760 (+46) and 92.45 (+0.67). At 720 haste, it provides about 1800 DPS and 93.00% EW uptime with little improvement after.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides 1607 (-61) DPS and 90.74 (-0.35) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste, with catching the 1:1.5 a) rotation at about 110 haste, until about 380 haste, at which point they both increase at a smaller rate until about 780 haste at which both remain essentially constant throughout the remainder of the haste range at about 1814 DPS and 93.57 EW uptime.
- Although set b) outperforms set a) after about 275 haste, I would still recommend set a) since it provides much better DPS over the majority of the range you would be using the 1:1.4 rotation (unhasted and only haste drums) since other rotations will be switched to at higher values of haste.
- Although the 1:1.4 a) rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation after 85 haste, I still recommend the 1:1.5 a) rotation since it performs better over the ranges (unhasted and drums only) that the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 would be used.
- The badge crossbow with set a) provides 1627 (-41) DPS and 91.36% (+0.27%) EW uptime unhasted. At the 210 haste that the 3.0 weapon tops off, the badge crossbow does 1718 (+4) DPS and 92.66 (+0.88) EW uptime. Note that the badge crossbow is performing more poorly with this set up since stats were given up to achieve the additional haste for this analysis. Thus, for similar gear and both with the 80 haste, the BBS performing the 1:1.5 rotation does better than the badge crossbow doing the 1:1.4 over the pertinent haste ranges (unhasted and drums). However, badge crossbow 1:1.4 rotation from the previous analysis does close to similar raid DPS (slighty lower personal DPS but higher EW DPS) over the pertinent range with surpassing the BBS 1:1.5 after about 85 haste.
2:1
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1589 (-79) DPS and 90.02 (-1.07) EW uptime for -85 raid DPS. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste throughout the whole range but at modest rates (3-8 DPS per 100 haste). It never catches up to the 1:1.5 rotation. In fact, the closest it gets is the -85 raid DPS unhasted. At the 210 haste that the 1:1.5 tops off, it is at its worse case of about -122 DPS relative to the 1:1.5.
- Unhasted, trinket set b) provides about 15 DPS less than set a). However, set b) quickly passes it by 75 haste and then becomes increasingly better with providing +53 DPS by 400 haste. As haste increases from there, set a) catches back up a little but never gets closer than 57 DPS. Thus, trinket set b) is the best trinket set for the 2:1 rotation and this spec.
- The 2:1 rotation is vastly inferior to the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotation over the whole range of haste and should never be used.
- Didn’t bother to do a 2.8 weapon speed comparison since already have sufficient data indicating that the 2:1 is not an option ever with either weapon speed.
3:2:
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1555 (-113) DPS and 89.47 (-1.62) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste throughout the whole range; however, the rate of increase lessens dramatically at about 260. At approximately the 210 haste that the 1:1.5 tops off, it catches the 1:1.5. At 1000 haste, it provides about 1746 (+36) DPS and 92.44% (+0.66) EW.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides about 7 less DPS from the a) set. As haste increases, it closes the gap on set a) until they are equal at about 250 haste, after which it performs better with widening the gap to 28 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Overall, set b) outperforms set a), especially over the majority of the haste regions that it performs better than the 1:1.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides -313 DPS relative to the 1:1.5. It catches it by about 430 haste and continues to widen the gap until around 300 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket group provides -278 DPS relative to the 1:1.5. It catches it by about 390 haste and continues to widen the gap until around 264 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Comparing the two trinket sets, set b) start off about 36 DPS outperforms until around 630 haste and which point set a) performs better with being about 37 DPS better at 1000 haste. Which trinket set is better depends on which haste range you will be in more.
- The badge crossbow with set a) provides +27 DPS unhasted over the better of the BBS trinket sets unhasted. It remains better than either of the BBS 1:1s until after its DPS has topped off. At about 730 haste, the BBS set a) passes it up with improving the gap to around 59 DPS.
Recommendation for the 0/20/41 Build with 3.0 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Whether trinket set a) or b) is better to use is difficult to determine from the above information since each trinket can be better in different situations. So to help better come to a decision, I compiled the ideal rotation for each trinket set over the whole haste range.
For set a), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 85 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
For set b), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 65 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
When comparing the ideal rotations for each trinket, trinket set a) starts out better by 36 DPS. Trinket set b) catches it at about 275 haste. Trinket set b) improves to about 20 DPS lead at 400 haste when its 1:1.4 rotation slows down. From here, set a) catches up some and only trails by about 18 DPS when the 1:1 rotations take over. At that point set b) is doing about 35 DPS better but is caught by set a by 630 haste. Set a) is doing about 35 DPS better by 800 haste at which point the gains slow down with only being 37 DPS better at 1000 haste.
So if most of your rotation is between 0 and 275 haste (unhasted and drums only) or greater than 630 haste, then trinket set a) is better. If most of your rotation is between 275 haste and 630 haste, then I would say use trinket set b). My recommendation is trinket set a) since it covers the unhasted and drums only range and the high haste range and is easier to implement since you do not have to switch rotations on DST procs.
The most interesting observation from this analysis is how the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations are never the ideal option. If a player with the 0/20/41 spec and 3.0 weapon speed is trying to use the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation all the time, they are severely hurting their DPS potential. That rotation will always be worse than the ideals listed until around 630 haste at which point after it will be the same. Unhasted, the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is 85 DPS worse with a maximum of being about 105 worse at 125 haste as compared to using the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 instead of the 2:1 and 3:2.
Maybe things work different practically than theoretically, but I do not have the T6 4-set bonus yet to check it out in game myself.
Results and Observations for the 0/20/41 Build with a 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1667.94 DPS and 91.09 EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste until about haste of 210, at which point both remain essentially constant thoughout the remainder of the haste range at about 1714 DPS and 91.78 EW uptime.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides 1631.76 (-36.18) DPS and 91.06 (-0.03) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste until about 380 haste, at which point they both remain essentially constant throughout the remainder of the haste range at about 1745 DPS and 92.69 EW uptime. Note that at the 210 haste at which set a) topped off that set b) has roughly caught it.
- Although set b) outperforms set a) throughout the majority of the haste range (210-1000), I would still recommend set a) since it provides the most DPS over the majority of the range you would be using the 1:1.5 rotation (unhasted and only haste drums) since other rotations will be switched to at higher values of haste.
- The badge crossbow with set a) provides 1659.45 (-8.5) DPS and 91.72% (+0.62%) EW uptime unhasted. At the 210 haste that the 3.0 weapon tops off, the badge crossbow does 1676 (-38) DPS and 91.97 (+0.19) EW uptime. This is because the 2.8 speed weapon topped off at about 80 haste (the 135 haste from the 2.8 analysis minus the 53 additional haste in this analysis. Thus, as expected, the BBS performs the 1:1.5 rotation better than the badge crossbow.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1635 (-33) DPS and 90.63 (-0.46) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste throughout the whole range; however, the rate of increase lessens at about 135 haste and then lessens even more around 720 haste. At about 85 haste, it has caught up to the 1:1.5 rotation. At the 210 haste that the 1:1.5 tops off, it does about 1760 (+46) and 92.45 (+0.67). At 720 haste, it provides about 1800 DPS and 93.00% EW uptime with little improvement after.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides 1607 (-61) DPS and 90.74 (-0.35) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste, with catching the 1:1.5 a) rotation at about 110 haste, until about 380 haste, at which point they both increase at a smaller rate until about 780 haste at which both remain essentially constant throughout the remainder of the haste range at about 1814 DPS and 93.57 EW uptime.
- Although set b) outperforms set a) after about 275 haste, I would still recommend set a) since it provides much better DPS over the majority of the range you would be using the 1:1.4 rotation (unhasted and only haste drums) since other rotations will be switched to at higher values of haste.
- Although the 1:1.4 a) rotation outperforms the 1:1.5 rotation after 85 haste, I still recommend the 1:1.5 a) rotation since it performs better over the ranges (unhasted and drums only) that the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 would be used.
- The badge crossbow with set a) provides 1627 (-41) DPS and 91.36% (+0.27%) EW uptime unhasted. At the 210 haste that the 3.0 weapon tops off, the badge crossbow does 1718 (+4) DPS and 92.66 (+0.88) EW uptime. Note that the badge crossbow is performing more poorly with this set up since stats were given up to achieve the additional haste for this analysis. Thus, for similar gear and both with the 80 haste, the BBS performing the 1:1.5 rotation does better than the badge crossbow doing the 1:1.4 over the pertinent haste ranges (unhasted and drums). However, badge crossbow 1:1.4 rotation from the previous analysis does close to similar raid DPS (slighty lower personal DPS but higher EW DPS) over the pertinent range with surpassing the BBS 1:1.5 after about 85 haste.
2:1
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1589 (-79) DPS and 90.02 (-1.07) EW uptime for -85 raid DPS. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste throughout the whole range but at modest rates (3-8 DPS per 100 haste). It never catches up to the 1:1.5 rotation. In fact, the closest it gets is the -85 raid DPS unhasted. At the 210 haste that the 1:1.5 tops off, it is at its worse case of about -122 DPS relative to the 1:1.5.
- Unhasted, trinket set b) provides about 15 DPS less than set a). However, set b) quickly passes it by 75 haste and then becomes increasingly better with providing +53 DPS by 400 haste. As haste increases from there, set a) catches back up a little but never gets closer than 57 DPS. Thus, trinket set b) is the best trinket set for the 2:1 rotation and this spec.
- The 2:1 rotation is vastly inferior to the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotation over the whole range of haste and should never be used.
- Didn’t bother to do a 2.8 weapon speed comparison since already have sufficient data indicating that the 2:1 is not an option ever with either weapon speed.
3:2:
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1555 (-113) DPS and 89.47 (-1.62) EW uptime. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with haste throughout the whole range; however, the rate of increase lessens dramatically at about 260. At approximately the 210 haste that the 1:1.5 tops off, it catches the 1:1.5. At 1000 haste, it provides about 1746 (+36) DPS and 92.44% (+0.66) EW.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides about 7 less DPS from the a) set. As haste increases, it closes the gap on set a) until they are equal at about 250 haste, after which it performs better with widening the gap to 28 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Overall, set b) outperforms set a), especially over the majority of the haste regions that it performs better than the 1:1.
1:1:
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides -313 DPS relative to the 1:1.5. It catches it by about 430 haste and continues to widen the gap until around 300 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket group provides -278 DPS relative to the 1:1.5. It catches it by about 390 haste and continues to widen the gap until around 264 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Comparing the two trinket sets, set b) start off about 36 DPS outperforms until around 630 haste and which point set a) performs better with being about 37 DPS better at 1000 haste. Which trinket set is better depends on which haste range you will be in more.
- The badge crossbow with set a) provides +27 DPS unhasted over the better of the BBS trinket sets unhasted. It remains better than either of the BBS 1:1s until after its DPS has topped off. At about 730 haste, the BBS set a) passes it up with improving the gap to around 59 DPS.
Recommendation for the 0/20/41 Build with 3.0 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Whether trinket set a) or b) is better to use is difficult to determine from the above information since each trinket can be better in different situations. So to help better come to a decision, I compiled the ideal rotation for each trinket set over the whole haste range.
For set a), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 85 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
For set b), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 65 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
When comparing the ideal rotations for each trinket, trinket set a) starts out better by 36 DPS. Trinket set b) catches it at about 275 haste. Trinket set b) improves to about 20 DPS lead at 400 haste when its 1:1.4 rotation slows down. From here, set a) catches up some and only trails by about 18 DPS when the 1:1 rotations take over. At that point set b) is doing about 35 DPS better but is caught by set a by 630 haste. Set a) is doing about 35 DPS better by 800 haste at which point the gains slow down with only being 37 DPS better at 1000 haste.
So if most of your rotation is between 0 and 275 haste (unhasted and drums only) or greater than 630 haste, then trinket set a) is better. If most of your rotation is between 275 haste and 630 haste, then I would say use trinket set b). My recommendation is trinket set a) since it covers the unhasted and drums only range and the high haste range and is easier to implement since you do not have to switch rotations on DST procs.
The most interesting observation from this analysis is how the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations are never the ideal option. If a player with the 0/20/41 spec and 3.0 weapon speed is trying to use the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation all the time, they are severely hurting their DPS potential. That rotation will always be worse than the ideals listed until around 630 haste at which point after it will be the same. Unhasted, the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is 85 DPS worse with a maximum of being about 105 worse at 125 haste as compared to using the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 instead of the 2:1 and 3:2.
Maybe things work different practically than theoretically, but I do not have the T6 4-set bonus yet to check it out in game myself.
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 3 of 4
Results and Observations for the 7/20/34 Build with a 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1695 (+37) DPS and 89.31 (-0.78) EW uptime for +17 total raid DPS compared to the 0/20/41 1:1.5 a). Both DPS and EW uptime increase at diminishing rates with haste until about haste of 230 when the 0/20/41 1:1.5 a) has about caught up. At this point QS switches rotations and the rate of increase becomes larger. At about 490 haste, the rate of increase slows down and only increases by a few DPS thoughout the remainder of the haste range to1814 DPS and 91.16 EW uptime for +98 raid DPS.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides -26 DPS relative to set a). It follows a similar pattern as set a) except that its rate of increase to 230 haste in larger resulting in it passing set a) up at about 165 haste. After 230 haste, the increases start to have slightly more diminishing returns compared to set a) resulting in a maximum difference of about 16 DPS at about 380 haste, only 4 DPS better at 490 with that approximate difference holding through 1000 haste.
- Although set b) outperforms set a) throughout the majority of the haste range (165-1000), I would still recommend set a) since it provides the most DPS over the majority of the range you would be using the 1:1.5 rotation (unhasted and only haste drums) since other rotations will be switched to at higher values of haste. Plus, trinket set a) outperforms the 0/20/41 1:1.5 over the whole haste range, while set b) does not with performing worst in the lower haste range until about 110 DPS.
- The badge crossbow with set a) starts 22 DPS worse and never gets closer with trailing by 135 DPS at 1000 haste. This is because the 2.8 speed weapon topped off at about 80 haste (the 135 haste from the 2.8 analysis minus the 53 additional haste in this analysis. Thus, as expected, the 3.0 performs the 1:1.5 rotation better than the 2.8 speed weapon.
- The 7/20/34 1:1.5 with trinket set a) is the new base rotation for comparison.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1669 (-26) DPS and 88.93 (-0.38) EW uptime for -28 total raid DPS. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with passing the 1:1.5 rotation at about 65. The increases continue until the rotation temporarily stalls out at about 135 haste with 1750 DPS and 90.19 EW uptime (+38 raid DPS). The increases pick up again after QS switches rotations and increases steadily until about 490 haste, after which the increases continue at lower rates to 1000 haste with 1873 DPS and 91.94 EW uptime (+63 DPS). Thus, after 65 haste the 1:1.4 outperforms the 1:1.5 for the remainder of the haste range.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides -19 DPS relative to set a). It follows a similar pattern as set a) except that its rate of increase to the QS switch is larger resulting in it passing set a) up at about 210 haste. After 230 haste, the increases start to have slightly more diminishing returns compared to set a) resulting in a maximum difference of about 6 DPS at about 370 haste. Trinket set a) passes it back up around 425 haste and slowly increases the gap to around 11 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Trinket set a) is superior since it provides superior DPS over the majority of the haste range (0 to 210 and 425 to 1000) and when it does trail set b) it does not trail it by much.
- The badge crossbow with set a) with this unideal gear setup, did not even match anywhere close to these results. However, the badge crossbow with the gear set up in the previous analysis did outperform this 1:1.4 over much of the range. Unhasted, it provided 20 more DPS. Its advantage was maintained until the BBS 1:1.4 caught it at about 75 haste and increased its advantage by about 13 DPS at 150 haste. By 220 haste the badge crossbow caught back up with increasing its lead to about 14 DPS at 375 haste. After the badge crossbow's increases stalled out, the BBS catches it at about 430 haste and quickly gains a 29 DPS advantage until its increases slow at 490 haste resulting with doing 34 DPS better at 1000 haste. So over the range that a 1:1.4 rotation would be used, the badge crossbow can outperform the BBS provided that it has less static haste.
2:1
- Trinket set a) starts 11 DPS better unhasted, but set b) quickly passes it by 40 haste with maximizing its advantage to about 35 DPS at 375 haste with finishing at 21 DPS better at 1000 haste. Hence, the DST performs the 2:1 better over the vast majority of the range.
- The 2:1 rotation does worse than both the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 over the whole range of haste with never getting close and should never be used.
3:2:
- Trinket set b) is a little better for the 3:2 rotation. Unhasted, it trials the a) set by about 5 DPS but then quickly passes it by 25 DPS with maximum best of about 15 DPS at 390 haste with set a) passing it back up around 890 haste with only being 0.6 DPS better at 1000 haste.
- Once again, the 3:2 rotation never does better than the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 combo and should never be used. For most of the haste range it trails by 40-80 DPS except for a dip within 8 DPS around 250 haste while waiting for QS to switch rotations.
1:1:
- Both trinkets sets see large increases in DPS and EW uptime until about 800 haste at which the improvements slow down.
- Unhasted, trinkets set a) provides 1447 DPS and 84.91 EW uptime (-273 DPS to 1:1.5). It passes up the 1:1.5 /1:1.4 combo at about 530 haste with providing 1971 DPS and 93.14 EW uptime for +105 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Although the b) trinket set starts out better unhasted by about 37 DPS, the a) set catches it by about 460 haste with providing +18 DPS by 500 haste and +36 DPS at 1000 haste. Thus, trinket set a) is better since it performs better over the range that the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 7/20/34 Build with 3.0 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Once again, whether trinket set a) or b) is better to use is difficult to determine from the above information since each trinket can be better in different situations. So to help better come to a decision, I compiled the ideal rotation for each trinket set over the whole haste range.
For set a), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 65 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
For set b), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 65 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
When comparing the ideal rotations for each trinket, trinket set a) starts out better by 26 DPS. Trinket set b) catches it at about 210 haste. Trinket set b) improves to a maximum of only 6 DPS better at about 375 haste when its 1:1.4 rotation slows down. From here, set a) catches up at 430 haste with improving to about 35 DPS better by 800 haste at which point the gains slow down with only being 37 DPS better at 1000 haste.
Thus, for a 7/20/34 spec, overall trinket set a) performs better.
The most interesting observation from this analysis is how the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations are never the ideal option. If a player with the 7/20/34 spec and 3.0 weapon speed is trying to use the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation all the time, they are severely hurting their DPS potential. That rotation will always be worse than the ideals listed until around 530 haste at which point after it will be the same. Unhasted, the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is 78 DPS worse with a maximum of being about 137 worse at 150 haste as compared to using the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 instead of the 2:1 and 3:2.
Once again maybe practical application is different than theoretical, but I cannot test it yet.
Results and Observations for the 7/20/34 Build with a 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed
1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1695 (+37) DPS and 89.31 (-0.78) EW uptime for +17 total raid DPS compared to the 0/20/41 1:1.5 a). Both DPS and EW uptime increase at diminishing rates with haste until about haste of 230 when the 0/20/41 1:1.5 a) has about caught up. At this point QS switches rotations and the rate of increase becomes larger. At about 490 haste, the rate of increase slows down and only increases by a few DPS thoughout the remainder of the haste range to1814 DPS and 91.16 EW uptime for +98 raid DPS.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides -26 DPS relative to set a). It follows a similar pattern as set a) except that its rate of increase to 230 haste in larger resulting in it passing set a) up at about 165 haste. After 230 haste, the increases start to have slightly more diminishing returns compared to set a) resulting in a maximum difference of about 16 DPS at about 380 haste, only 4 DPS better at 490 with that approximate difference holding through 1000 haste.
- Although set b) outperforms set a) throughout the majority of the haste range (165-1000), I would still recommend set a) since it provides the most DPS over the majority of the range you would be using the 1:1.5 rotation (unhasted and only haste drums) since other rotations will be switched to at higher values of haste. Plus, trinket set a) outperforms the 0/20/41 1:1.5 over the whole haste range, while set b) does not with performing worst in the lower haste range until about 110 DPS.
- The badge crossbow with set a) starts 22 DPS worse and never gets closer with trailing by 135 DPS at 1000 haste. This is because the 2.8 speed weapon topped off at about 80 haste (the 135 haste from the 2.8 analysis minus the 53 additional haste in this analysis. Thus, as expected, the 3.0 performs the 1:1.5 rotation better than the 2.8 speed weapon.
- The 7/20/34 1:1.5 with trinket set a) is the new base rotation for comparison.
1.1.4 rotation with arcane shot and multishot
- Unhasted, the a) trinket group provides 1669 (-26) DPS and 88.93 (-0.38) EW uptime for -28 total raid DPS. Both DPS and EW uptime increase with passing the 1:1.5 rotation at about 65. The increases continue until the rotation temporarily stalls out at about 135 haste with 1750 DPS and 90.19 EW uptime (+38 raid DPS). The increases pick up again after QS switches rotations and increases steadily until about 490 haste, after which the increases continue at lower rates to 1000 haste with 1873 DPS and 91.94 EW uptime (+63 DPS). Thus, after 65 haste the 1:1.4 outperforms the 1:1.5 for the remainder of the haste range.
- Unhasted, the b) trinket set provides -19 DPS relative to set a). It follows a similar pattern as set a) except that its rate of increase to the QS switch is larger resulting in it passing set a) up at about 210 haste. After 230 haste, the increases start to have slightly more diminishing returns compared to set a) resulting in a maximum difference of about 6 DPS at about 370 haste. Trinket set a) passes it back up around 425 haste and slowly increases the gap to around 11 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Trinket set a) is superior since it provides superior DPS over the majority of the haste range (0 to 210 and 425 to 1000) and when it does trail set b) it does not trail it by much.
- The badge crossbow with set a) with this unideal gear setup, did not even match anywhere close to these results. However, the badge crossbow with the gear set up in the previous analysis did outperform this 1:1.4 over much of the range. Unhasted, it provided 20 more DPS. Its advantage was maintained until the BBS 1:1.4 caught it at about 75 haste and increased its advantage by about 13 DPS at 150 haste. By 220 haste the badge crossbow caught back up with increasing its lead to about 14 DPS at 375 haste. After the badge crossbow's increases stalled out, the BBS catches it at about 430 haste and quickly gains a 29 DPS advantage until its increases slow at 490 haste resulting with doing 34 DPS better at 1000 haste. So over the range that a 1:1.4 rotation would be used, the badge crossbow can outperform the BBS provided that it has less static haste.
2:1
- Trinket set a) starts 11 DPS better unhasted, but set b) quickly passes it by 40 haste with maximizing its advantage to about 35 DPS at 375 haste with finishing at 21 DPS better at 1000 haste. Hence, the DST performs the 2:1 better over the vast majority of the range.
- The 2:1 rotation does worse than both the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 over the whole range of haste with never getting close and should never be used.
3:2:
- Trinket set b) is a little better for the 3:2 rotation. Unhasted, it trials the a) set by about 5 DPS but then quickly passes it by 25 DPS with maximum best of about 15 DPS at 390 haste with set a) passing it back up around 890 haste with only being 0.6 DPS better at 1000 haste.
- Once again, the 3:2 rotation never does better than the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 combo and should never be used. For most of the haste range it trails by 40-80 DPS except for a dip within 8 DPS around 250 haste while waiting for QS to switch rotations.
1:1:
- Both trinkets sets see large increases in DPS and EW uptime until about 800 haste at which the improvements slow down.
- Unhasted, trinkets set a) provides 1447 DPS and 84.91 EW uptime (-273 DPS to 1:1.5). It passes up the 1:1.5 /1:1.4 combo at about 530 haste with providing 1971 DPS and 93.14 EW uptime for +105 DPS at 1000 haste.
- Although the b) trinket set starts out better unhasted by about 37 DPS, the a) set catches it by about 460 haste with providing +18 DPS by 500 haste and +36 DPS at 1000 haste. Thus, trinket set a) is better since it performs better over the range that the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4.
Recommendation for the 7/20/34 Build with 3.0 Base Ranged weapon Speed
Once again, whether trinket set a) or b) is better to use is difficult to determine from the above information since each trinket can be better in different situations. So to help better come to a decision, I compiled the ideal rotation for each trinket set over the whole haste range.
For set a), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 65 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
For set b), the 1:1.5 rotation is best until about 65 haste when the 1:1.4 becomes better. Then the 1:1 becomes best at about 530 haste.
When comparing the ideal rotations for each trinket, trinket set a) starts out better by 26 DPS. Trinket set b) catches it at about 210 haste. Trinket set b) improves to a maximum of only 6 DPS better at about 375 haste when its 1:1.4 rotation slows down. From here, set a) catches up at 430 haste with improving to about 35 DPS better by 800 haste at which point the gains slow down with only being 37 DPS better at 1000 haste.
Thus, for a 7/20/34 spec, overall trinket set a) performs better.
The most interesting observation from this analysis is how the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations are never the ideal option. If a player with the 7/20/34 spec and 3.0 weapon speed is trying to use the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation all the time, they are severely hurting their DPS potential. That rotation will always be worse than the ideals listed until around 530 haste at which point after it will be the same. Unhasted, the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is 78 DPS worse with a maximum of being about 137 worse at 150 haste as compared to using the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 instead of the 2:1 and 3:2.
Once again maybe practical application is different than theoretical, but I cannot test it yet.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
T6 4-Set Bonus Shot Rotation and Build Analysis for 3.0 Base Ranged Weapon Speed: Part 4 of 4
Overall Recommendation for 3.0 Base Ranged weapon Speed
From the previous information provided, one might arrive at the conclusion that the 7/20/34 build with 1:1.4 rotation under 430 HR and 1:1 above it would be best. But that is not necessarily the case since the above analysis neither compared every rotation against each other nor compared the specs over the rotations that are best over each haste region.
In fact, when comparing the recommendation for the 0/20/41 and 7/20/34 builds, there are 3 switches in regions for which is better. Unhasted, the 7/20/34 is better by about 17 DPS. By 80 HR, the 0/20/41 build starts to perform better with benefits hitting a maximum of about +20 DPS at 150 HR. At about 300 HR, the 7/20/34 becomes better again and continues to increase relatively to a maximum of about 70 DPS at 500 HR. By 725 HR, the 0/20/41 build becomes better and remains better with +35 DPS at 1000 HR.
Thus, which build is better depends on in which haste regions your normally operate. The 7/20/34 build is better unhasted, but adding an additional haste item can make the 0/20/41 build be better unhasted as well as for drums. The 7/20/34 build is better for Haste Potions, Bloodlusts, and Rapid Fires alone or with Haste Drums. Overall, for its unhasted benefits and benefits for standard haste effects, the 7/20/34 build is better for a 3.0 speed weapon, although the 0/20/41 build is still an acceptable alternative if the utility of Readiness is desired.
Although it is difficult to compare since one is comparing apples to oranges, overall, the [Bristleblitz Striker] with 80 passive haste rating does seem to perform better than the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] with the same 80 passive haste rating or for the set up in the previous 2.8 weapon speed analysis. Although there are some situations where the badge crossbow does better.
Comparing the best 3.0 weapon speed rotation from this analysis versus the best 2.8 weapon speed rotation from the previous analysis, the 3.0 does better unhasted by about 17 DPS. But the 2.8 catches it by 30 haste but with doing only a maximum of 6 DPS better before the 3.0 catches it again at about 110 haste. Until about 260 haste where the new QS rotation kicks in, the 3.0 is only doing a maximum of 8 DPS better; however, after 260 haste it achieves a maximum of about 60 DPS at 475 haste. After that the 2.8 passes it up just after 600 haste with doing 36 DPS better at 700 haste. At around 790 after the 2.8 rotation has slowed, the 3.0 catches it again by only does about 6 DPS better maximum over the rest of the haste region.
Thus, the 3.0 did better unhasted and during haste potions and bloodlusts, but the 2.8 did better when under drums and rapid fires.
My plan is to try to win the BBS when it drops but to still perform a 0/20/41 rotation since I like the utility of Readiness and would prefer to not have to worry about switching rotations for QS procs. I believe the DPS loss from the inefficiency of not ideally switching rotations properly on QS procs and the extra rapid fire will help to make up some of the DPS loss when compared to the 7/20/34, although I may still switch to that spec after I have tried them both out in game.
Concerning the DST, I am not really sold on its benefits. It does not seem to be as big of a benefit as people had lead me to believe from previous posts. If I already had it, I may consider using it since it can provide benefits when used properly; however, since I do not already have it, I do not think it is worth sending my hunter in on Gruul runs in hopes of getting it, especially considering that our Gruul runs are on off-nights with a less progressed guild to help fill about half the raid slots such that DKP is not used. It does do better with the 7/20/34 rotation and performing the 2:1/3:2/1:1, but BC with a 1:1.5/1:1.4/1:1 rotation does much better. The reason that it does better with the 2:1 and 3:2 is because those are inferior rotations and the DST haste proc to temporarily go to a better rotation makes a huge difference.
Overall Recommendation for 3.0 Base Ranged weapon Speed
From the previous information provided, one might arrive at the conclusion that the 7/20/34 build with 1:1.4 rotation under 430 HR and 1:1 above it would be best. But that is not necessarily the case since the above analysis neither compared every rotation against each other nor compared the specs over the rotations that are best over each haste region.
In fact, when comparing the recommendation for the 0/20/41 and 7/20/34 builds, there are 3 switches in regions for which is better. Unhasted, the 7/20/34 is better by about 17 DPS. By 80 HR, the 0/20/41 build starts to perform better with benefits hitting a maximum of about +20 DPS at 150 HR. At about 300 HR, the 7/20/34 becomes better again and continues to increase relatively to a maximum of about 70 DPS at 500 HR. By 725 HR, the 0/20/41 build becomes better and remains better with +35 DPS at 1000 HR.
Thus, which build is better depends on in which haste regions your normally operate. The 7/20/34 build is better unhasted, but adding an additional haste item can make the 0/20/41 build be better unhasted as well as for drums. The 7/20/34 build is better for Haste Potions, Bloodlusts, and Rapid Fires alone or with Haste Drums. Overall, for its unhasted benefits and benefits for standard haste effects, the 7/20/34 build is better for a 3.0 speed weapon, although the 0/20/41 build is still an acceptable alternative if the utility of Readiness is desired.
Although it is difficult to compare since one is comparing apples to oranges, overall, the [Bristleblitz Striker] with 80 passive haste rating does seem to perform better than the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] with the same 80 passive haste rating or for the set up in the previous 2.8 weapon speed analysis. Although there are some situations where the badge crossbow does better.
Comparing the best 3.0 weapon speed rotation from this analysis versus the best 2.8 weapon speed rotation from the previous analysis, the 3.0 does better unhasted by about 17 DPS. But the 2.8 catches it by 30 haste but with doing only a maximum of 6 DPS better before the 3.0 catches it again at about 110 haste. Until about 260 haste where the new QS rotation kicks in, the 3.0 is only doing a maximum of 8 DPS better; however, after 260 haste it achieves a maximum of about 60 DPS at 475 haste. After that the 2.8 passes it up just after 600 haste with doing 36 DPS better at 700 haste. At around 790 after the 2.8 rotation has slowed, the 3.0 catches it again by only does about 6 DPS better maximum over the rest of the haste region.
Thus, the 3.0 did better unhasted and during haste potions and bloodlusts, but the 2.8 did better when under drums and rapid fires.
My plan is to try to win the BBS when it drops but to still perform a 0/20/41 rotation since I like the utility of Readiness and would prefer to not have to worry about switching rotations for QS procs. I believe the DPS loss from the inefficiency of not ideally switching rotations properly on QS procs and the extra rapid fire will help to make up some of the DPS loss when compared to the 7/20/34, although I may still switch to that spec after I have tried them both out in game.
Concerning the DST, I am not really sold on its benefits. It does not seem to be as big of a benefit as people had lead me to believe from previous posts. If I already had it, I may consider using it since it can provide benefits when used properly; however, since I do not already have it, I do not think it is worth sending my hunter in on Gruul runs in hopes of getting it, especially considering that our Gruul runs are on off-nights with a less progressed guild to help fill about half the raid slots such that DKP is not used. It does do better with the 7/20/34 rotation and performing the 2:1/3:2/1:1, but BC with a 1:1.5/1:1.4/1:1 rotation does much better. The reason that it does better with the 2:1 and 3:2 is because those are inferior rotations and the DST haste proc to temporarily go to a better rotation makes a huge difference.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/17/08 at 3:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by jomzjomz
So you would suggest that i still go ahead with the 7/20/34 and just use the 2:1 rotation with the gear i have? Or do you recommend that I should just stick with 20/41 and wait until i get the DST and/or 80 haste and use the 1:1.4 rotation?
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I definitely do not recommend using a 2:1 (or 3:2) rotation ever. You will give up a lot of DPS, both personal and raid from EW, relative to doing a 1:1.5/1:1.4 until the 1:1 becomes the better option.
I might have missed it earlier, but what macro are you using to do your 3:2 rotation and how exactly do you switch to a tighter rotation during a DST proc?
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Crowbite
I might have missed it earlier, but what macro are you using to do your 3:2 rotation and how exactly do you switch to a tighter rotation during a DST proc?
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"The reason that it [DST] does better with the 2:1 and 3:2 is because those are inferior rotations and the DST haste proc to temporarily go to a better rotation makes a huge difference."
My answer is that I personally do not (or at least not intentionally). With my current gear (no T6 4-set bonus, badge xbow, and 52 passive haste), I attempt to do a 1:1.4/1:1 rotation. I use a version of the /cast auto /cast steady macro as my base rotation with hand-weaving in the arcane shots and multishots when doing the 1:1.4 at hastes less than 395 and then the 1:1 at hastes above 395.
But if I was doing a 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation and using any of the numerous versions of the /cast /cast macro to do it, then the rotation switch would be automatic during the DST procs due to the faster attack speed.
My comment referred to that situation and my modeling of it in the analysis in Cheeky's spreadsheet. As I stated in Part 1 of the analysis, whenever I was testing a rotation with DST in the trinket set, I tried out all rotations of equal or lesser value (priority of 1:1.5->1:1.4->2:1->3:2->1:1) and chose for that haste level the one that provided the best results.
If you were referring to my chart on the haste values for optimally switching rotations, the chart just provides the optimal values at which to switch, it doesn't tell you how to properly implement these switches, which probably do not correspond to when the /cast /cast macro automatically performs the switches. I am unable to determine whether these coincide myself since I do not have a 3.0 speed weapon on which to perform tests to see how closely the optimal switch points match with the automatic switch points. If anyone else can provide that comparison, it would be welcomed. However, I do not think that is possible to do since you cannot modify your haste rating in game in steps of 25.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/17/08 at 5:14 PM.
I'm using manito's dual cast
Has anyone here given any thought to how removal of auto shot locking will effect macro selection (and potentially shot rotation)?
Although this might better fit into the Hunter WotLK Talent Discussion, I don't think that a macro will be neccessary anymore in the addon. You just mash Steady Shot and throw Instants in beetween without looking at your swingtimer, so.. Mages don't [have to] use macros either as far as I know, and with WotLK our playstyle won't differ too much from theirs.
Is there a point in time when, survival hunters can drop the 28 crit rating scope, for a 12 damage scope? I'm currently just over 35% chance to crit, without buffs. Typically with full raid buffs and elixirs, without a feral druid, I tend to put up about 40% chance to crit.
I have been unable to locate an information that specifically answers my question, so I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere.
I have been unable to locate an information that specifically answers my question, so I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere.
Hi everyone,
I'm a survival hunter and looking to improve my dps. Most of the posts here deal with haste and t6 raiding, so I felt I should pose my own questions I came here in an attempt to find the answers to.
Armory Link also, I raid with [Bloodlust Brooch] not Riding Crop.
My guild is currently working on t5 content and I need some help with my personal dps. From week to week my personal dps can range from high 600's to mid 900s on the same. I initially feet that I'm lacking in ap, and I'm relying too much on my crit for dps.
But by reading these forums, I have deducted I might not be using the right shot rotation or that there's something that I'm missing other than gear. Raiding I only use steady shot, so its ss, as, ss, as etc... I hope you all can help me out with your knowledge. Impart some wisdom on me please.
I'm a survival hunter and looking to improve my dps. Most of the posts here deal with haste and t6 raiding, so I felt I should pose my own questions I came here in an attempt to find the answers to.
Armory Link also, I raid with [Bloodlust Brooch] not Riding Crop.
My guild is currently working on t5 content and I need some help with my personal dps. From week to week my personal dps can range from high 600's to mid 900s on the same. I initially feet that I'm lacking in ap, and I'm relying too much on my crit for dps.
But by reading these forums, I have deducted I might not be using the right shot rotation or that there's something that I'm missing other than gear. Raiding I only use steady shot, so its ss, as, ss, as etc... I hope you all can help me out with your knowledge. Impart some wisdom on me please.
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Originally Posted by Nalifein
Is there a point in time when, survival hunters can drop the 28 crit rating scope, for a 12 damage scope? I'm currently just over 35% chance to crit, without buffs. Typically with full raid buffs and elixirs, without a feral druid, I tend to put up about 40% chance to crit.
I have been unable to locate an information that specifically answers my question, so I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere. |
So finally worked out my Brutallus rotations and got a result I liked, have always been over 2k but this time I got 2323 Wow Web Stats
The World of Warcraft Armory
I'm just wondering if my agil is fine for Survival(not the greatest, but I'm the only hunter willing to re-spec, re-gemming I'll have about 760 agil as BM). I'm looking at the 4 pc T6 bonus, but without the chest since I have the SW crafted one.
With 97 passive haste or so, I think with my BBS I should do fairly well DPS wise. However I still haven't been able to get my mits on a DST.
I'm just wondering if my agil is fine for Survival(not the greatest, but I'm the only hunter willing to re-spec, re-gemming I'll have about 760 agil as BM). I'm looking at the 4 pc T6 bonus, but without the chest since I have the SW crafted one.
With 97 passive haste or so, I think with my BBS I should do fairly well DPS wise. However I still haven't been able to get my mits on a DST.
Hey guys, I'm slightly concerned about my performance in raids. Now, until 2 weeks ago I had never been anything more than Beast Mastery, so this thread and my other readings have been really useful. My gear is equal to a lot of the surv hunters who have posted WWS reports, but looking at buffs and debuffs the only real differences I see frequently are madness and DST procs, alongside a 4-5% critical difference.
Part of this is probably due to the fact that we run both hunters in the tank group with a resto sham, feral and warrior and that I'm only getting 60-90secs of drums depending on which feral comes along, plus we twist the agi to wf dependent on who is tanking at the time. I'm also guessing that my crit is probably 2-3% lower than I'd ideally like. My other concern is that why our rogues who are pretty much finished with BT and the new set parts are still pulling 400 dps less than the BM hunter who seems to have gained almost 300dps from EW compared to when we were both BM, while the rogues seem to be pretty static.
Wow Web Stats
This is with 4pcT6, 3:2 separated macro, Wind Serpent - if I'm not constantly getting 2minutes of drums, surely it shouldn't be affecting my dps by this much compared to the 21-2300s being posted?
Part of this is probably due to the fact that we run both hunters in the tank group with a resto sham, feral and warrior and that I'm only getting 60-90secs of drums depending on which feral comes along, plus we twist the agi to wf dependent on who is tanking at the time. I'm also guessing that my crit is probably 2-3% lower than I'd ideally like. My other concern is that why our rogues who are pretty much finished with BT and the new set parts are still pulling 400 dps less than the BM hunter who seems to have gained almost 300dps from EW compared to when we were both BM, while the rogues seem to be pretty static.
Wow Web Stats
This is with 4pcT6, 3:2 separated macro, Wind Serpent - if I'm not constantly getting 2minutes of drums, surely it shouldn't be affecting my dps by this much compared to the 21-2300s being posted?
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Originally Posted by Nalifein
Is there a point in time when, survival hunters can drop the 28 crit rating scope, for a 12 damage scope? I'm currently just over 35% chance to crit, without buffs. Typically with full raid buffs and elixirs, without a feral druid, I tend to put up about 40% chance to crit.
I have been unable to locate an information that specifically answers my question, so I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere. |
- Increases EW uptime for greater personal and raid damage
- Gives more focus to your pet via GftT - for greater pet DPS
- Returns more mana from TotH
I usually raid with an average of about 52% crit, and I have no plans to replace my scope.
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Originally Posted by hailjh
Hi everyone,
I'm a survival hunter and looking to improve my dps. Most of the posts here deal with haste and t6 raiding, so I felt I should pose my own questions I came here in an attempt to find the answers to. Armory Link also, I raid with [Bloodlust Brooch] not Riding Crop. My guild is currently working on t5 content and I need some help with my personal dps. From week to week my personal dps can range from high 600's to mid 900s on the same. I initially feet that I'm lacking in ap, and I'm relying too much on my crit for dps. But by reading these forums, I have deducted I might not be using the right shot rotation or that there's something that I'm missing other than gear. Raiding I only use steady shot, so its ss, as, ss, as etc... I hope you all can help me out with your knowledge. Impart some wisdom on me please. |
For the badge crossbow, the rotations you should be using are:
- Unhasted to about 20 haste: 1:1.5 =>
...auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady (repeat)
- Between 20 and 430 haste: 1:1.4 =>
...auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady (repeat)
...(Just adds and auto-steady before the multi)
- Greater than 430 haste: 1:1 => auto-steady (repeat)
If you get greater than 20 passive haste, you can use the 1:1.4 as your unhasted rotation.
Other suggestions to improve your DPS:
- Drop IAotH. With the non-auto-steady only max DPS rotation, it does not help you as much as other options. SUggest 0/20/41 for MT and Readiness.
- Think I caught you in your PvP gear so I cannot really comment on all your gear. For the non-PvP pieces, comments are:
...- You get more DPS on your bracers with the Assault (+24 AP) enchant.
- Having only 2/5 in IHM doesn't do much. If another hunter in your raids already has 5/5 IHM, then I suggest droppping it to get GftT. GftT provides your pet with much more focus to dump, allowing it to do more specials and more DPS. If no hunter in your raids has full IHM, then I suggest getting it but still getting GftT. Now I realize that you may have mana issues since you do not have much. Make sure to use mana oil on your weapon and elixirs of major mageblood as well as chugging mana pots. If you still have mana issues, then suggest another hunter have IHM and you Efficiency until you can increase your mana pool more.
Good evening folks ^_^
Well I recently turned survival and the only bosses I've gotten to test on so far was Illidari Council and the first 50% of Illidan, so I can't determine much since those fights involve quite a bit of movement. I'm not sure if I'm maximizing my DPS to it's fullest though.
The World of Warcraft Armory
(I use Cloak of Fiends btw, I think I logged with Gorefiend's cape on)
I have 122 passive haste, which takes me down to 2.42, however I've yet to get a DST. I've looked around and have heard different opinions on what talent build to use and which rotation to shoot for.
First spec/rotation(what people suggest): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- Use 1:1.5 then switch to 3:2 once AoTH procs or during heroism.
- Other rotation suggestion I heard with this build would be just going 3:2 period.
Second would be my current spec/rotation: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- Use 1:1.5 and switch to 1:1 once Rapid Fire or Heroism is up.
I'm not too sure which road to take
Well I recently turned survival and the only bosses I've gotten to test on so far was Illidari Council and the first 50% of Illidan, so I can't determine much since those fights involve quite a bit of movement. I'm not sure if I'm maximizing my DPS to it's fullest though.
The World of Warcraft Armory
(I use Cloak of Fiends btw, I think I logged with Gorefiend's cape on)
I have 122 passive haste, which takes me down to 2.42, however I've yet to get a DST. I've looked around and have heard different opinions on what talent build to use and which rotation to shoot for.
First spec/rotation(what people suggest): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- Use 1:1.5 then switch to 3:2 once AoTH procs or during heroism.
- Other rotation suggestion I heard with this build would be just going 3:2 period.
Second would be my current spec/rotation: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- Use 1:1.5 and switch to 1:1 once Rapid Fire or Heroism is up.
I'm not too sure which road to take
I just went survival tonight. It's a trial basis, so my gems are still in the BM range. We're currently working on the Illidari Council.
I'm sure this has been asked. What is the SV preferred shot rotation? I pretty much copied Whitefyst's spec. Could someone post the steady shot macro for said preferred rotation?
I've been BM for a pretty long time, but losing my 2pc T5 bonus, I think it's time for a change. So do all the rogues, feral druid, ret pally, warriors, and other hunters in my guild lol. Any advice would be great.
Using the Bristleblitz and have low haste. Armory is here: The World of Warcraft Armory
I usually raid with the Bloodlust Brooch and Ashtongue Talisman. Trust me, I know the AToS is the suck, but I could NEVER get a TT to drop for me, and haven't had a shot at a MotB yet. I work with the tools I've been given, heh. And, as I said, I'll re-gem properly after I try this out for a few days to see if it goes well.
I'm sure this has been asked. What is the SV preferred shot rotation? I pretty much copied Whitefyst's spec. Could someone post the steady shot macro for said preferred rotation?
I've been BM for a pretty long time, but losing my 2pc T5 bonus, I think it's time for a change. So do all the rogues, feral druid, ret pally, warriors, and other hunters in my guild lol. Any advice would be great.
Using the Bristleblitz and have low haste. Armory is here: The World of Warcraft Armory
I usually raid with the Bloodlust Brooch and Ashtongue Talisman. Trust me, I know the AToS is the suck, but I could NEVER get a TT to drop for me, and haven't had a shot at a MotB yet. I work with the tools I've been given, heh. And, as I said, I'll re-gem properly after I try this out for a few days to see if it goes well.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
I'm curious to know, has anyone tried comparing Bristleblitz to the Illidan bow by any chance on Brutallus?
The reason is; we are dropping MH soon and I am wondering whether the illidan bow is just as viable for the 2K dps required. 15 Archi kills and still no Bristleblitz....
On another note - I have recently gathered a 4 set T6 bonus and I have found that although +80 passive haste is recommended for a decent Heavy Steady rotation with a 3.0 second bow, it does seem to work fine with less.
Using only the Badge Chest (for example) to give only +25 haste (2.57 Drawspeed) works a pretty nice 2:1 (using Manito's macro). Useful until you get the Felspine, Cloak of Fiends etc.
I tried the shortcut of using the Badge Bow with 0 haste to get under the 2.5 sec drawspeed. It defies logic but it does consistently less DPS than the Serpent Spine bow and 25 haste - using Manito's again.
I heard somewhere that Steady Shot gives more DPS with slower bows - is this correct? If it is that might explain the difference.
The reason is; we are dropping MH soon and I am wondering whether the illidan bow is just as viable for the 2K dps required. 15 Archi kills and still no Bristleblitz....
On another note - I have recently gathered a 4 set T6 bonus and I have found that although +80 passive haste is recommended for a decent Heavy Steady rotation with a 3.0 second bow, it does seem to work fine with less.
Using only the Badge Chest (for example) to give only +25 haste (2.57 Drawspeed) works a pretty nice 2:1 (using Manito's macro). Useful until you get the Felspine, Cloak of Fiends etc.
I tried the shortcut of using the Badge Bow with 0 haste to get under the 2.5 sec drawspeed. It defies logic but it does consistently less DPS than the Serpent Spine bow and 25 haste - using Manito's again.
I heard somewhere that Steady Shot gives more DPS with slower bows - is this correct? If it is that might explain the difference.
Last edited by myonions : 07/22/08 at 11:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by Nakaya_kilrogg
I usually raid with the Bloodlust Brooch and Ashtongue Talisman. Trust me, I know the AToS is the suck, but I could NEVER get a TT to drop for me, and haven't had a shot at a MotB yet. I work with the tools I've been given, heh. And, as I said, I'll re-gem properly after I try this out for a few days to see if it goes well.
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo-OG
I do Cobra Reflexes, Avoidance, Lightning Breath and max ranks of Fire and Shadow resists. The rest of the points get spent in Stamina.
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Originally Posted by wyldbill
I'd rather wear the hourglass over that ashtongue talisman. Try plugging that into cheeky's sheet: brooch & hourglass. Without the haste, that should be a significant upgrade over the ashtongue talisman.
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I am torn on this subject as still haven't got a TT or MoTB to drop either for!
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Originally Posted by myonions
I tried the shortcut of using the Badge Bow with 0 haste to get under the 2.5 sec drawspeed. It defies logic but it does consistently less DPS than the Serpent Spine bow and 25 haste - using Manito's again.
I heard somewhere that Steady Shot gives more DPS with slower bows - is this correct? If it is that might explain the difference. |
So, the best SV shot rotation for a 3.0 weapon is...?
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Originally Posted by Nakaya_kilrogg
So, the best SV shot rotation for a 3.0 weapon is...?
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I'm convinced that 2:1 is not a good rotation through testing of my own (in terms of damage, but not mana efficiency), but I'm still undecided about 1:1.3 vs 3:2.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by smidefix
Now to my question, what to upgrade next from badges, Bloodlust Brooch or Belt of the Silent Path? Or maybe something other?
I also got Bindings of Lightning Reflexes from MH trash last time, are they good for me at this point? When do haste really give a boost? (Even that i don't have chance to get HoD atm) My dps seems to vary quite much, when we killed Winterchill last time i got around 1000 dps but then on Voidreaver i only hade around 860. WWS reports: Wow Web Stats - VR Wow Web Stats - Winterchill Can you see something i do diffrent? I try to stay to same Dps cycle all time. Will i gain or loose dps if I respecc 0/20/41 ? I have done some math, i will have 2 more rapid fire in a 6-7 min fight. But will that + the extra crit give more then i get from IAoTH? |
The Bloodlust Brooch is a nice DPS upgrade relative to the Mark of Conquest; however, I hesitate once again to suggest making that change due to your mana situation and that you probably rely on the trinket for your mana. Thus, I prefer not to provide any suggestions without having a better feel for your particular mana situation. If you can make the changes and maintain your DPS uptime, then by all means make them.
Concerning the Bindings of Lightning Reflexes, they are about a 7 overall upgrade for me (+11 personal DPS and -4 raid DPS from EW) from your current wrists due to it helping me be able to perform a 1:1.4 unhasted max DPS rotation instead of the 1:1.5 with the badge crossbow. Suggest checking out the change yourself in Cheeky's.
In general haste provide a good boost when it allows you to either tighten up your rotation (without making it fully tight and wasting some of the haste) or allowing you to switch rotations for better DPS.
Assuming identical buffs and boss debuffs, your DPS will vary from boss to boss for various reasons, including:
1) The boss's armor and resistances/immunities. Rage only has 6200 armor while VR has 8800. Hence, your DPS will tend to be higher on Rage than VR.
2) The nature of the fight - do you have to move around a lot or experience interruptions? For the Rage fight, if I stand at max range sperad out from everyone else, I rarely have to move (if at all) to get out of death and decay allowing me to maintain my max DPS rotation through most or all of the fight. On the other hand, I know I will need to move and move frequently in the VR fight, resulting in a loss of DPS.
From the analyses I have previously done on my character, I have found the 0/20/41 spec to work the best for me, with the addition of the extra utility from readiness. I had a IAotH build at one time until I did the original analysis that prompted me to switch, and I have gotten the same result everytime I have reperformed the analysis (prior to T6 4-set bonus with 3.0 speed weapon). Suggest checking it out yourself in Cheeky's.
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Originally Posted by Shikimaru
I have 122 passive haste, which takes me down to 2.42, however I've yet to get a DST. I've looked around and have heard different opinions on what talent build to use and which rotation to shoot for.
First spec/rotation(what people suggest): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - Use 1:1.5 then switch to 3:2 once AoTH procs or during heroism. - Other rotation suggestion I heard with this build would be just going 3:2 period. Second would be my current spec/rotation: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - Use 1:1.5 and switch to 1:1 once Rapid Fire or Heroism is up. I'm not too sure which road to take |
I also suggest never using a 2:1 or 3:2 rotation. As per my analysis a couple pages back, I suggest using the 1:1.5 rotation unhasted. Switch to the 1:1.4 under any haste effects less than 480 haste. Then use the 1:1 for haste greater than 480. The results of this will outperform either the 2:1 or 3:2 over all haste values. If you pick up about another 28 haste, then you can use the 1:1.4 unhasted as well for better DPS than the 1:1.5 and switch to the 1:1 at hastes above 450.
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Originally Posted by Nakaya_kilrogg
What is the SV preferred shot rotation? I pretty much copied Whitefyst's spec. Could someone post the steady shot macro for said preferred rotation?
Using the Bristleblitz and have low haste. I usually raid with the Bloodlust Brooch and Ashtongue Talisman. Trust me, I know the AToS is the suck, but I could NEVER get a TT to drop for me, and haven't had a shot at a MotB yet. I work with the tools I've been given, heh. And, as I said, I'll re-gem properly after I try this out for a few days to see if it goes well. |
- Between 0 and 150 haste: 1:1.5 (auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-multishot-auto-steady (repeat))
- Between 150 and 600 haste: 1:1.4 (same as above but with another auto-steady before the multishot)
- Greater than 600 haste: 1:1 (old BM rotation)
As far as macros, you will have to look past in posts to get any since I would prefer not to repeat any, especially when I do not use any full rotation macros myself. I use the BM 1:1 macro with hand-weaving my arcane and multis.
Whether Hourglass or AToS is better depends on your average weapon speed, sepc, and rotation. With a 3.0 speed weapon with being hasted for only short periods of your DPS time and the 0/20/41 spec, I find the hourglass, if you have it, to be more beneficial as some of my previous analyis posted has discussed. That extra crit not only helps your DPS but also returns more mana from TotH, increases your EW uptime, and provides your pet with more focus. The AToS will outperform the hourglass under certain conditions (mainly when under higher average weapon speeds and doing more steady shots per second), even with your situation, but I believe from my analyses that the hourglass will perform better for you more often. Check it out yourself in Cheeky's though.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/22/08 at 6:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by jomzjomz
So basically we only need Fire and Shadow resist in sunwell right? BTW we are only in Brutallus in sunwell so maybe ill spec my pet upto the 3rd boss of sunwell and for all the bosses in BT. In this regard, would Fire + Shadow still be the only resist needed for my pet?
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Hello,
I was approached by my guild to go survival to boost raid dps and i was itching to go give survival a try for a while (BM cookie cutter spec atm).
armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I assumed that it wouldn't be that hard, figured there will be a cookie cutter spec for Survival and a handy macro and off i go but i was wrong.
Build:
i was looking into 7/20/34 but i think i lack enough haste to make it work with my 3.0 weapon.
I figured 0/20/41 might be a better choice because haste procs might screw me over with a shot macro in the beginning. maybe iAotH spec in the future when i get a hang of it?
Shot rotation:
post 2460 mentions 1:1.5 shot rotation would be ideal with 3.0 weapon speed and little haste (without DST). my question is what is a decent 1:1.5 macro?
i found 2 but i am not sure if they are right?
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(rank 6), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
vs.
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=10 Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Gear:
what are the 2 better choices for survival trinket wise?
Madness and Berserk's Call or Madness and Tsunami?
Neckless of the Deep > Choker of endless nightmare? (missing in post 17)
Dory's Embrace > Cloak of Fiends? (also missing in post 17) just wondering since ignore armor would be more beneficial than haste?
sorry for this wall of text, looking forward to some help.
I was approached by my guild to go survival to boost raid dps and i was itching to go give survival a try for a while (BM cookie cutter spec atm).
armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I assumed that it wouldn't be that hard, figured there will be a cookie cutter spec for Survival and a handy macro and off i go but i was wrong.
Build:
i was looking into 7/20/34 but i think i lack enough haste to make it work with my 3.0 weapon.
I figured 0/20/41 might be a better choice because haste procs might screw me over with a shot macro in the beginning. maybe iAotH spec in the future when i get a hang of it?
Shot rotation:
post 2460 mentions 1:1.5 shot rotation would be ideal with 3.0 weapon speed and little haste (without DST). my question is what is a decent 1:1.5 macro?
i found 2 but i am not sure if they are right?
/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot(rank 6), !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
vs.
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=10 Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Gear:
what are the 2 better choices for survival trinket wise?
Madness and Berserk's Call or Madness and Tsunami?
Neckless of the Deep > Choker of endless nightmare? (missing in post 17)
Dory's Embrace > Cloak of Fiends? (also missing in post 17) just wondering since ignore armor would be more beneficial than haste?
sorry for this wall of text, looking forward to some help.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
I've been 5/20/36 spec survival for quite some time but my guild has finally started to make some progression. We're 4/6 ssc 2/4 tk and have Rage down in MH. I usually put out 1100-1250dps depending on wether i get an enh shaman for GoA totem while using the Manito's macro from Bigredkitty. I just wondered if there is a more efficient spec, shot rotation, or gear choices that i should be using to maximize my dps as well as raid wide EW dps.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Spec-
I see you keep recommending 20/41 with MT/Readiness for better dps/EW uptime for most hunters not stacking piles of Haste. I've tried to read through all of your posts to get a clear explanation why but I haven't found it clearly explained. I've never tried a readiness spec and wondered what the difference in playstyle (timing trinkets/etc) would be.
Gear-
As I'm only in mid-t5 content and don't have access to any of the 3.0 bows should I stick with sunfury or get the badge bow and try to stack some haste? Should I ditch the t5 2pc bonus and requip my Pauldrons of Primal Fury and purchase the Badge gloves? And would it be beneficial to start stacking more personal AP/crit at this point since I am already to 900+ unbuffed agility or should I continue stacking Agility till my eyes bleed?
Rotation-
Depending on the answers to the questions above what rotation would most benefit me over using the Manito's macro i am currently using? I've never been fond of using multishot due to its high mana cost but if I am seriously gimping my dps without it where would it be best to put into my macro/rotation?
Thanks in advance and I realize I have alot of questions in here.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Spec-
I see you keep recommending 20/41 with MT/Readiness for better dps/EW uptime for most hunters not stacking piles of Haste. I've tried to read through all of your posts to get a clear explanation why but I haven't found it clearly explained. I've never tried a readiness spec and wondered what the difference in playstyle (timing trinkets/etc) would be.
Gear-
As I'm only in mid-t5 content and don't have access to any of the 3.0 bows should I stick with sunfury or get the badge bow and try to stack some haste? Should I ditch the t5 2pc bonus and requip my Pauldrons of Primal Fury and purchase the Badge gloves? And would it be beneficial to start stacking more personal AP/crit at this point since I am already to 900+ unbuffed agility or should I continue stacking Agility till my eyes bleed?
Rotation-
Depending on the answers to the questions above what rotation would most benefit me over using the Manito's macro i am currently using? I've never been fond of using multishot due to its high mana cost but if I am seriously gimping my dps without it where would it be best to put into my macro/rotation?
Thanks in advance and I realize I have alot of questions in here.
Last edited by Slager : 07/23/08 at 3:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by huntcaudata
The reason is probably that your macro is not working without haste, and you're constantly chaining steady shots. Auto shot won't correctly fire after a steady when you're spamming a macro unless you have enough haste to make Steady shot finish before the GCD is up. Even a little haste is enough to do this (like the 25 from the chest), which is why it works for you when you use that setup.
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I guess that shows that Manito's macro needs at least some haste gear to work properly. Just in case ppl need a link to it again:
Manito's Macro
Has anyone compared Archi Bow to Illidan bow on Brutallus?
I basically wondering what kind of dps I can be expected to put out as a survival hunter in BT.
We've cleared it three weeks now and I respecced SV just recently. I did slightly more than 1800 dps
on Teron Gorefiend, using a 2:1 rotation (1:1.5 and variations doesnt seemt o put out more dps for me).
Gear was at the time pretty much what I have now except I had the badge chest instead of the t6 one.
Our raid setup might look a bit odd but that because we're more of a raiding group than an actual guild
and we simply bring along what we have and work with that.
Wow Web Stats
So, if I can put out around 1800 dps on pure nuke fights am I doing what I should or do I fail somehow?
Also, I was sort of wondering which gear pieces I can look at getting, including leather, to improve my gear.
Disregard the gemming, I'm not sure if I'm going to stay SV so I'm not yet willing to replace my epic chest
gems for instance. (SWP drops and craftables are out of reach) I'm aware of Bow-stitched and archi/illi bow
they simply have not dropped yet.
We've cleared it three weeks now and I respecced SV just recently. I did slightly more than 1800 dps
on Teron Gorefiend, using a 2:1 rotation (1:1.5 and variations doesnt seemt o put out more dps for me).
Gear was at the time pretty much what I have now except I had the badge chest instead of the t6 one.
Our raid setup might look a bit odd but that because we're more of a raiding group than an actual guild
and we simply bring along what we have and work with that.
Wow Web Stats
So, if I can put out around 1800 dps on pure nuke fights am I doing what I should or do I fail somehow?
Also, I was sort of wondering which gear pieces I can look at getting, including leather, to improve my gear.
Disregard the gemming, I'm not sure if I'm going to stay SV so I'm not yet willing to replace my epic chest
gems for instance. (SWP drops and craftables are out of reach) I'm aware of Bow-stitched and archi/illi bow
they simply have not dropped yet.
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Originally Posted by Lohegrin
I basically wondering what kind of dps I can be expected to put out as a survival hunter in BT.
We've cleared it three weeks now and I respecced SV just recently. I did slightly more than 1800 dps on Teron Gorefiend, using a 2:1 rotation (1:1.5 and variations doesnt seemt o put out more dps for me). Gear was at the time pretty much what I have now except I had the badge chest instead of the t6 one. Our raid setup might look a bit odd but that because we're more of a raiding group than an actual guild and we simply bring along what we have and work with that. Wow Web Stats So, if I can put out around 1800 dps on pure nuke fights am I doing what I should or do I fail somehow? Also, I was sort of wondering which gear pieces I can look at getting, including leather, to improve my gear. Disregard the gemming, I'm not sure if I'm going to stay SV so I'm not yet willing to replace my epic chest gems for instance. (SWP drops and craftables are out of reach) I'm aware of Bow-stitched and archi/illi bow they simply have not dropped yet. |
My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Fight : Brutallus
This is the macro i use: (i get from 1200 to 1600 dps only)
Macro:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
Then i manually shoot Multi-shot and Arcane shot
AutoShot-SteadyShot-Multishot-Autoshot-Steadyshot-Autoshot-Steadyshot-Arcaneshot-Autoshot-Steadyshot
I also start of by using MD then shoot the boss with Arcane/Multi/Distracting shot then i click my Drums of Battle then hit a macro that activates Blood Fury / Rapid Fire / Berserker's Call. When Rapid fire ends, I hit Feign Death then click Readiness, then i hit Rapid Fire again. During the time Rapid fire is up, I just spam the Macro I posted above and when it ends, I go back to the macro plus manually shooting multi/arcane shot. I then rinse and repeat.
Yet I only get 1200-1600 DPS.(I often get only 1300dps)
My latency is 250ms. What am I doing wrong?
I am not sure if this applies to Surv hunters or not since they mostly use cast sequence macros BUT when i was BM it is better to not pop your cooldowns unless the hunters mark has full strength. There is a huntermark counter on these forums somewhere but again i am not sure if this would boost a surv hunter.
@jomzjomz
I suppose it might come down to group composition and boss debuffs but this is my macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
My ping is between 40-80 ms
@germanboy3383
could you find the name of that addon?
I suppose it might come down to group composition and boss debuffs but this is my macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
My ping is between 40-80 ms
@germanboy3383
could you find the name of that addon?
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Originally Posted by germanboy3383
I am not sure if this applies to Surv hunters or not since they mostly use cast sequence macros BUT when i was BM it is better to not pop your cooldowns unless the hunters mark has full strength. There is a huntermark counter on these forums somewhere but again i am not sure if this would boost a surv hunter.
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From this thread:
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Originally Posted by Zarni
I have made a new version of Sorata's addon. It's written pretty much from scratch actually, so beware, there may be bugs. :O
It can be found at Hunter's Mark | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse, and also on wowace. |
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Originally Posted by jomzjomz
Macro: /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command /castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath Then i manually shoot Multi-shot and Arcane shot |
With just steady-spam i got to 198X dps without haste-potions (21XX with) at brutallus (feral+shaman - tank grp). After "weaving" the multi into (it still does more dmg than steady, even with 4/8 T6 and without barage) i'm at 20XX dps without and around 2250 with haste pots.
I spam the macro by hand if that helps :<
1:1.5 at 0/2x/3x will bring higher results at 0 haste, though.
Lohegrin and jomzjomz, those macros you posted look to be 2:1 style macros not for 1:1.5. Am I misreading your posts? Typically with 1:1.5 you use a castsequence style macro.
I did say I was using 2:1, he asked for my macro :>
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Hello all, Serf here. Was wondering what I could do to increase my DPS. here's my Armory...
My Armory
And right now I'm stuck at doing only SSC (early SSC, aka hydross, Lurker, Leo and last week was our first down of Morogrim) and sometimes TK (A'lar/Loot Reaver). Can't get a Hyjal or BT to save my life (or get new lewts) and our ZA run just cannot down Jan'alai for some reason, so at best we can assume three chests, but no Hex Lord or Zul'Jin gear. Be.imba.hu rates my gear ratio as being well in excess of being BT/Hyjal worthy. Within those parameters, what can I do better? I average 800-900 DPS usually, using this macro;
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
and manually weaving in arcanes and multis when I need to due to moving about or needing to not use multi-targetting attacks to not break CC.
I've been looking to pick up the Ranger-General's Chestguard off Hydross, once it drops again and the shaman doesn't get it (-.-) as well as Trollbane, once it finally appears in the chest instead of that stupid Staff of Dark Mending. Any help would be nice.
Oh, i also use Major Agi pots and agi food, of course. With Mark of the Wild, Kings, and both food and elixir, I easily pass 1K agi, if anyone wonders, somewhere in the range of 1030 or so.
My Armory
And right now I'm stuck at doing only SSC (early SSC, aka hydross, Lurker, Leo and last week was our first down of Morogrim) and sometimes TK (A'lar/Loot Reaver). Can't get a Hyjal or BT to save my life (or get new lewts) and our ZA run just cannot down Jan'alai for some reason, so at best we can assume three chests, but no Hex Lord or Zul'Jin gear. Be.imba.hu rates my gear ratio as being well in excess of being BT/Hyjal worthy. Within those parameters, what can I do better? I average 800-900 DPS usually, using this macro;
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
and manually weaving in arcanes and multis when I need to due to moving about or needing to not use multi-targetting attacks to not break CC.
I've been looking to pick up the Ranger-General's Chestguard off Hydross, once it drops again and the shaman doesn't get it (-.-) as well as Trollbane, once it finally appears in the chest instead of that stupid Staff of Dark Mending. Any help would be nice.
Oh, i also use Major Agi pots and agi food, of course. With Mark of the Wild, Kings, and both food and elixir, I easily pass 1K agi, if anyone wonders, somewhere in the range of 1030 or so.
Last edited by Serf : 07/23/08 at 5:47 PM. Reason: Edited for clarification
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Originally Posted by Lohegrin
I did say I was using 2:1, he asked for my macro :>
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Hi all,
Well I came here for opinions on what to do now that I got a DST drop =)
The World of Warcraft Armory
(I might of logged out with Gorefiend's cape on, I can use Cloak of Fiends though)
I've only got 2 pieces of T6 so I do not have the set bonus yet, but I'm just wondering since I got 97(122 with Cloak of Fiends) passive haste + DST, should I go 7/20/34 anyways?
If so, would the 3:2 be the most dps output for that spec? Appreciate any tips =)
(Right now using 1:1.5 rotation with my current spec on the armory.)
Well I came here for opinions on what to do now that I got a DST drop =)
The World of Warcraft Armory
(I might of logged out with Gorefiend's cape on, I can use Cloak of Fiends though)
I've only got 2 pieces of T6 so I do not have the set bonus yet, but I'm just wondering since I got 97(122 with Cloak of Fiends) passive haste + DST, should I go 7/20/34 anyways?
If so, would the 3:2 be the most dps output for that spec? Appreciate any tips =)
(Right now using 1:1.5 rotation with my current spec on the armory.)
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
Lohegrin and jomzjomz, those macros you posted look to be 2:1 style macros not for 1:1.5. Am I misreading your posts? Typically with 1:1.5 you use a castsequence style macro.
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/cast Steady Shot
This is the 2:1 Macro IF you do not hand-weave a multi/autoshot every 2 sets of auto/steady shot. I do not use the castsequence style because my latency is high.
Actually, this macro is a 2:1, a 3:2 and a 1:1 depending on what your total haste currently is. It also becomes a 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 if you hand weave multi/arcane shot.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Slager
I've been 5/20/36 spec survival for quite some time but my guild has finally started to make some progression. We're 4/6 ssc 2/4 tk and have Rage down in MH. I usually put out 1100-1250dps depending on wether i get an enh shaman for GoA totem while using the Manito's macro from Bigredkitty. I just wondered if there is a more efficient spec, shot rotation, or gear choices that i should be using to maximize my dps as well as raid wide EW dps.
Spec- I see you keep recommending 20/41 with MT/Readiness for better dps/EW uptime for most hunters not stacking piles of Haste. I've tried to read through all of your posts to get a clear explanation why but I haven't found it clearly explained. I've never tried a readiness spec and wondered what the difference in playstyle (timing trinkets/etc) would be. Gear- As I'm only in mid-t5 content and don't have access to any of the 3.0 bows should I stick with sunfury or get the badge bow and try to stack some haste? Should I ditch the t5 2pc bonus and requip my Pauldrons of Primal Fury and purchase the Badge gloves? And would it be beneficial to start stacking more personal AP/crit at this point since I am already to 900+ unbuffed agility or should I continue stacking Agility till my eyes bleed? Rotation- Depending on the answers to the questions above what rotation would most benefit me over using the Manito's macro i am currently using? I've never been fond of using multishot due to its high mana cost but if I am seriously gimping my dps without it where would it be best to put into my macro/rotation? |
1) In general, SV hunters are a crit spec with many of our talents deriving from crit. More crit is generally a good thing for us since it not only directly increases our DPS from criting more often but also indirectly affects our DPS by increasing the amount of focus our pet generates increasing its DPS, increasing our EW uptime and therefore both our personal and raid DPS, and the amount of mana that TotH returns increasing our DPS uptime.
2) I have found from analysis that in the vast majority of situations that the 0/20/41 build with a properly performed rotation will out DPS the other options for someone without much haste or a DST. I have done comparison analyses of my character's current gear across various specs on numerous occassions and have always come to the conclusion that 0/20/41 was best. However, do not take my word for it, check it out yourself since there are situations with the right gear, rotations, and strategy that another spec may work better.
3) The utility of Readiness. Do not underestimate its value. Not only can you get extra Rapid Fires to increase your DPS, but you get extra other abilities as well. Extra MDs to keep the tanks threat up (especially early in the fight) so that the DPS has a higher threat ceiling under which to work. Extra FDs (especially early) to manage your threat and allow maximum DPS. At the start of boss fights, this is how I usually take advantage of REadiness:
- Pull boss to MT via MD
- As soon as get 4 hits, pop AP trinket and Rapid Fire
- FD if get close to tanks threat level (and even if I do)
- Hit Readiness
- Hit MD to raise the tanks threat by my next 3 naturally occurring shots from my rotation
- Hit Rapid Fire (with other AP trinket or AP drums if using those instead of haste works better)
- Use FD again (I often find that I need to use FD again before the 30s that it would have normally taken to CD)
- After this use abilities and trinkets as available at your discretion
It is also nice for extra Deterrences, if you have it, while kiting stuff or trying to stay alive until FD gets off CD.
4) The difficulty some people have with ideally switching rotations during QS procs. If you do not switch rotations properly, you will lose a lot of the benefit of teh IAotH spec.
On the other hand, there are many people that in application do better with other builds and rotations, but I think that vast majority of those situations being successful is because of the difficulty of properly implementing the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotations in game for some folks versus the ease of a steady shot spam.
Concerning gear, stacking agility is an important goal for a SV hunter, but we need to be careful doing so. Sometimes items with more agility do not provide the most overall raid DPS. It doesn't help much to increase your agility by 8 resulting in a 4 DPS gain to the rest of the raid if your personal DPS suffers by more than 4. The raid loses out then.
My goal is not to stack agility but to increase my overalll DPS contribution to the raid, of which stacking agility is often a major contributor to doing that. If you are not using it already, I suggest using Cheeky's spreadsheet for comparing gear. When I do the comparison, I check the change in my personal DPS versus the change in the raid DPS from EW (this is the change in average EW x 2 for a rough estimate of raid benefit - assumes 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other equivalent physical DPS). As long as the net DPS is positive, the item is an upgrade. Check out your suggested gear swaps in Cheeky's to determine whether they are an improvement. If you gain only a little DPS from the change, I would stay with the 2 T5 pieces since the extra time your pet is alive and contributing to your DPS will probably make up for the loss in the gear comparison. Its a judgement call though if its close.
You are 19 hit rating over the cap of 95 though, so if you have anything better to replace any of your to hit items, I would suggest doing so.
And the badge crossbow, when used properly, is a huge improvement over the Sunfury, but check it out yourself.
Concerning rotations, if all you are using is the BM rotation (2:1/3:2/1:1) with your weapon speed and gear that provides no extra benefit to steady shot, your are several gimping your DPS, especially when at low haste effect levels. As an example using my character, below if a comparison of what various rotations theoretically do for me unhasted and at Rapid Fire haste (assuming no LotP or GoA buffs):
1:1.5 => 1597 DPS and 250 average EW AP and 1618 DPS and 251 EW AP
1:1.4 => 1614 DPS and 251 average EW AP and 1694 DPS and 254 EW AP
2:1 => 1478 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1504 DPS and 248 EW AP
3:2 => 1467 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1614 DPS and 252 EW AP
1:1 => 1353 DPS and 239 average EW AP and 1818 DPS and 259 EW AP
As can be seen, the 2:1 and 3:2 are vastly inferior at both unhasted and rapid fire than the 1:1.4 rotation (and 1:1.5). In fact from 0 to 1000 haste, the 1:1.4 vastly outperforms the 2:1 and 3:2 since it does more shots per second by squeezing in arcane shots and multishots between auto-steadies. Although the 1:1 starts way worse, its performance improves more with haste and outperforms the after about 400 haste. Now these results are because I have the badge crossbow and have added enough passive haste (over 25) to make the 1:1.4 always outperform the 1:1.5. Thus, my optimal rotation is the 1:1.4 from 0 to 400 haste and then the 1:1 after.
For your weapon speed, I suggest using the 1:1.5 rotation unhasted and until about 100 haste, then the 1:1.4 from that until about 500 haste, and then the 1:1 after.
And for the record, although MS has a high mana cost, it also provides the most damage of all the shots you should be using and does better damage per mana than arcane shot.
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Originally Posted by Lohegrin
I basically wondering what kind of dps I can be expected to put out as a survival hunter in BT. I did slightly more than 1800 dps
on Teron Gorefiend, using a 2:1 rotation (1:1.5 and variations doesnt seemt o put out more dps for me). |
Oh, and 1800 is nice DPS on Gorefiend for a 0/20/41 spec and no DST.
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Originally Posted by jomzjomz
I almost have the same gear as you except that I use the BBS bow while you use the sunfury. I have never gotten past 1600 dps while using 1:1.5 and from my readings here, 1:1.5 > 2:1, yet you get 1800 DPS.
I also start of by using MD then shoot the boss with Arcane/Multi/Distracting shot then i click my Drums of Battle then hit a macro that activates Blood Fury / Rapid Fire / Berserker's Call. When Rapid fire ends, I hit Feign Death then click Readiness, then i hit Rapid Fire again. During the time Rapid fire is up, I just spam the Macro I posted above and when it ends, I go back to the macro plus manually shooting multi/arcane shot. I then rinse and repeat. Yet I only get 1200-1600 DPS.(I often get only 1300dps) My latency is 250ms. What am I doing wrong? |
Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/23/08 at 7:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
3) The utility of Readiness. Do not underestimate its value. Not only can you get extra Rapid Fires to increase your DPS, but you get extra other abilities as well. Extra MDs to keep the tanks threat up (especially early in the fight) so that the DPS has a higher threat ceiling under which to work. Extra FDs (especially early) to manage your threat and allow maximum DPS. At the start of boss fights, this is how I usually take advantage of REadiness: - Pull boss to MT via MD - As soon as get 4 hits, pop AP trinket and Rapid Fire - FD if get close to tanks threat level (and even if I do) - Hit Readiness - Hit MD to raise the tanks threat by my next 3 naturally occurring shots from my rotation - Hit Rapid Fire (with other AP trinket or AP drums if using those instead of haste works better) - Use FD again (I often find that I need to use FD again before the 30s that it would have normally taken to CD) - After this use abilities and trinkets as available at your discretion It is also nice for extra Deterrences, if you have it, while kiting stuff or trying to stay alive until FD gets off CD. |
I was still holding on to scatter shot though.
As you mention, with an extra deterrence - maybe I can manage without it. 2 x traps in PVP when the player has used their PVP trinket to escape the first can probably be even more effective than a short stun.....not to mention all of the other benefits you have mentioned here.
Thanks for that - i'll respec tomorrow....and tell the raid it's to add 2 x MD to the tank for the good of the raid ...but really it was I didn't want to let go of that last bit of MS spec that I had. Damn Bliz for nerfing MS so much - we pwned in T1/T2 instances.
Thank you soooo much for the thoughtful, indepth feedback Whitefyst. I'm going to give 20/41 a try and see if i can get used to manually weaving in shots more often.
Got ignored. Reposting :\. Edited a few things over the past few days.
I've been playing as survival for a few months now. It's also my first character.
Armory: Windarrow
Unbuffed stats(as of new spec):
Agi: 856
AP w/o aoth: 2098
Crit: 37.38%
I could have stacked more agility, but I decided that balancing out my AP, crit and agi would provide much better dps from myself, while losing just a little on the raid dps pov.
My guild is having a bit of trouble with ssc/tk at the moment, and I don't know whether to expect progress in either of them. Given that, how should I be upgrading my gear, and what should I be aiming for in terms of upgrades at this point in time? My targets as of now are to get the chest 3 ring from za and another dagger of bad mojo for armor pen. stack and also an extra charge of superior mana oil, and Ranger General's if we work harder on ssc. Is there anything else I should be aiming for?
Reading up about a hunter not using macros being 'blasphemy' in one of the earlier pages, i'm planning to start using them macros more if they will indeed help my output in raids. However, apart from convinience, how else does a macro contribute to better output from your hunter? The macro gives me a sense of fixed routine in my rotations, and I really prefer being flexible. I use quartz as a shot timer too.
My dps(with 0/27/34) on gruul reaches up to just above 1000 with groundslams and caveins, za bosses, mainly hexlord and zj range between 950 to again, just above 1000. I switched to a 0/20/41 spec a week ago, my dps now has dipped, to about 875 to 930 range, I'll learn to use WWS so I can get some logs up too.
Lastly, which rotation would be complementing my gear the most at this point in time? From reading, it seems to be a 1:1.4 or 1:1.5
I've been playing as survival for a few months now. It's also my first character.
Armory: Windarrow
Unbuffed stats(as of new spec):
Agi: 856
AP w/o aoth: 2098
Crit: 37.38%
I could have stacked more agility, but I decided that balancing out my AP, crit and agi would provide much better dps from myself, while losing just a little on the raid dps pov.
My guild is having a bit of trouble with ssc/tk at the moment, and I don't know whether to expect progress in either of them. Given that, how should I be upgrading my gear, and what should I be aiming for in terms of upgrades at this point in time? My targets as of now are to get the chest 3 ring from za and another dagger of bad mojo for armor pen. stack and also an extra charge of superior mana oil, and Ranger General's if we work harder on ssc. Is there anything else I should be aiming for?
Reading up about a hunter not using macros being 'blasphemy' in one of the earlier pages, i'm planning to start using them macros more if they will indeed help my output in raids. However, apart from convinience, how else does a macro contribute to better output from your hunter? The macro gives me a sense of fixed routine in my rotations, and I really prefer being flexible. I use quartz as a shot timer too.
My dps(with 0/27/34) on gruul reaches up to just above 1000 with groundslams and caveins, za bosses, mainly hexlord and zj range between 950 to again, just above 1000. I switched to a 0/20/41 spec a week ago, my dps now has dipped, to about 875 to 930 range, I'll learn to use WWS so I can get some logs up too.
Lastly, which rotation would be complementing my gear the most at this point in time? From reading, it seems to be a 1:1.4 or 1:1.5
Ok, finally got a useful WWS report from 7/22 vs. Brut. I got burned twice....in almost a row so that's one excuse. I normally run around people to get to burn spots, do you guys run through Brut? Ever since the latest patch, Manito's macro been acting weird for me.
Wow Web Stats
My ping is around 150 most of the night and my fps is around 60 if I recall correctly.
Wow Web Stats
My ping is around 150 most of the night and my fps is around 60 if I recall correctly.
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Originally Posted by Windarrow
Got ignored. Reposting :\. Edited a few things over the past few days.
I could have stacked more agility, but I decided that balancing out my AP, crit and agi would provide much better dps from myself, while losing just a little on the raid dps pov. My guild is having a bit of trouble with ssc/tk at the moment, and I don't know whether to expect progress in either of them. Given that, how should I be upgrading my gear, and what should I be aiming for in terms of upgrades at this point in time? My targets as of now are to get the chest 3 ring from za and another dagger of bad mojo for armor pen. stack and also an extra charge of superior mana oil, and Ranger General's if we work harder on ssc. Is there anything else I should be aiming for? Reading up about a hunter not using macros being 'blasphemy' in one of the earlier pages, i'm planning to start using them macros more if they will indeed help my output in raids. However, apart from convinience, how else does a macro contribute to better output from your hunter? The macro gives me a sense of fixed routine in my rotations, and I really prefer being flexible. I use quartz as a shot timer too. Lastly, which rotation would be complementing my gear the most at this point in time? From reading, it seems to be a 1:1.4 or 1:1.5 |
Your gemming of 5 +10 crit gems is hurting your DPS and the raid's and not helping it. The reason for this is that crit does not scale, but agility does with LR and BoK. Let's compare the benefit of three +10 crit gems versus 3 +10 agility gems (leaving two in case you get a helm with a meta socket).
1) 30 crit rating = 1.35% crit
2) 30 agility => 38 agility with LR and BoK => 38 AP, 0.95% crit, 9.5 moe EW AP assuming 100% uptime for 19 more raid DPS, 76 armor and 1.52% dodge
Comparing the two, option 2 provides 38 AP, 9.5 EW AP for 19 raid DPS, 76 armor, and 1.52% dodge at the cost of only 0.40% crit. It's pretty clear to me which is better. The increased agility upping your base EW AP affects EW a lot more than 0.40% crit, especially with being 3/3 EW. That extra crit only returns 0.1% more mana from 2.3 TotH and provides little additional pet focus. For me, the change to the 3 +10 crit gems lowers my personal DPS by more than 7 and my average EW AP by more than 8 AP. That is a loss in about 23 raid DPS, plus the survivability increases in armor and doge versus the small mana gain from TotH. Suggest checking it out in Cheeky's to see the full theoretcial impact for you character. If you switch the gems out, 1 of the 2 I would keep would be in your wrists since that is the only one with a good socket bonus that you are getting.
Since you have the badge crossbow, I would suggest acquiring an item with about 25 haste or more than is an upgrade. That additional haste will allow you to use the 1:1.4 rotation (see other posts for what that is if you do not know) unhasted and until around 430 haste, after which you should use a 1:1. Suggested ways are the badge chest or if you can get 4 hearts of darkness, the crafted haste bracers, or the ZA cloak. Compared to your current gear, upgrading your chest would be my preferred suggestion.
My biggest concern about your gear is your low mana pool. I assume you are having mana problems unless you are in a mana support group. Are you having mana problems? If so, look to replace some of your 4 leather items for comparable or better DPS mail items. The int on the mail will not only help increase your mana pool but also increase your mana regen if forced to use AoV. Nothing worng with wearing a little leather as long as you can maintain your DPS uptime with your max DPS rotation. BEing able to use the 1:1.4 rotation instead of 1:1.5 rotation as your base will help reduce mana consumption a little as well. Duel weilding with two mana oils and using major mageblood elixers will help as well.
Concerning macros, I believe that there is already enough discussion on that topic already and do not want to talk more on it. Whatever you can get to work for you to most ideally implement your rotations is what is best.
Windarrow,
I agree with whitefyst. You should look to pick up a little bit more mana... if you're running out or have to switch to viper you're giong to regret it, but you know whether you're running out or not.
As far as macros... I would consider getting the /cast/cast (or "3:2") macro. The reason is that:
A. Mashing that macro is identical to mashing your steady shot button anyways in terms of shot rotation (try it out).
B. You can macro your kill commands and (if applicable) lightning breath abilities to the macro so you don't have to manually hit them... which will be difficult when you are manually weaving the 1:1.X rotations.
You can (and should) manually weave the multis and arcanes as necessary using this macro.
I would also pick up the badge 2h axe if you can. You don't need too much haste at this point with the badge bow but it's still a wicked weapon for you.
I agree with whitefyst. You should look to pick up a little bit more mana... if you're running out or have to switch to viper you're giong to regret it, but you know whether you're running out or not.
As far as macros... I would consider getting the /cast/cast (or "3:2") macro. The reason is that:
A. Mashing that macro is identical to mashing your steady shot button anyways in terms of shot rotation (try it out).
B. You can macro your kill commands and (if applicable) lightning breath abilities to the macro so you don't have to manually hit them... which will be difficult when you are manually weaving the 1:1.X rotations.
You can (and should) manually weave the multis and arcanes as necessary using this macro.
I would also pick up the badge 2h axe if you can. You don't need too much haste at this point with the badge bow but it's still a wicked weapon for you.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Sorry if you got ignored, but it is not easy for the small set of people that reply to posts like yours to reply to everyone's, especially when similar stuff is being said over and over.
Your gemming of 5 +10 crit gems is hurting your DPS and the raid's and not helping it. The reason for this is that crit does not scale, but agility does with LR and BoK. Let's compare the benefit of three +10 crit gems versus 3 +10 agility gems (leaving two in case you get a helm with a meta socket). 1) 30 crit rating = 1.35% crit 2) 30 agility => 38 agility with LR and BoK => 38 AP, 0.95% crit, 9.5 moe EW AP assuming 100% uptime for 19 more raid DPS, 76 armor and 1.52% dodge Comparing the two, option 2 provides 38 AP, 9.5 EW AP for 19 raid DPS, 76 armor, and 1.52% dodge at the cost of only 0.40% crit. It's pretty clear to me which is better. The increased agility upping your base EW AP affects EW a lot more than 0.40% crit, especially with being 3/3 EW. That extra crit only returns 0.1% more mana from 2.3 TotH and provides little additional pet focus. For me, the change to the 3 +10 crit gems lowers my personal DPS by more than 7 and my average EW AP by more than 8 AP. That is a loss in about 23 raid DPS, plus the survivability increases in armor and doge versus the small mana gain from TotH. Suggest checking it out in Cheeky's to see the full theoretcial impact for you character. If you switch the gems out, 1 of the 2 I would keep would be in your wrists since that is the only one with a good socket bonus that you are getting. Since you have the badge crossbow, I would suggest acquiring an item with about 25 haste or more than is an upgrade. That additional haste will allow you to use the 1:1.4 rotation (see other posts for what that is if you do not know) unhasted and until around 430 haste, after which you should use a 1:1. Suggested ways are the badge chest or if you can get 4 hearts of darkness, the crafted haste bracers, or the ZA cloak. Compared to your current gear, upgrading your chest would be my preferred suggestion. My biggest concern about your gear is your low mana pool. I assume you are having mana problems unless you are in a mana support group. Are you having mana problems? If so, look to replace some of your 4 leather items for comparable or better DPS mail items. The int on the mail will not only help increase your mana pool but also increase your mana regen if forced to use AoV. Nothing worng with wearing a little leather as long as you can maintain your DPS uptime with your max DPS rotation. BEing able to use the 1:1.4 rotation instead of 1:1.5 rotation as your base will help reduce mana consumption a little as well. Duel weilding with two mana oils and using major mageblood elixers will help as well. Concerning macros, I believe that there is already enough discussion on that topic already and do not want to talk more on it. Whatever you can get to work for you to most ideally implement your rotations is what is best. |
With mana oil and chain chugging pots, I sort of make it to the end of long fights with some mana, especially when we have somewhat incapable raid dps. For short raid bosses like the ones in ZA, I usually manage not brilliantly, but just okay. End up with about just below 1000 mana. Sometimes during raids these days viper has more uptime than hawk to be able to manage mana properly, I suppose that would come under "forced to use AoV". Other than that, I ocassionally have a shammy in my group, mana spring does help. What would be an idea mana pool? 7k-8k? Thanks.
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Windarrow, I agree with whitefyst. You should look to pick up a little bit more mana... if you're running out or have to switch to viper you're giong to regret it, but you know whether you're running out or not. As far as macros... I would consider getting the /cast/cast (or "3:2") macro. The reason is that: A. Mashing that macro is identical to mashing your steady shot button anyways in terms of shot rotation (try it out). B. You can macro your kill commands and (if applicable) lightning breath abilities to the macro so you don't have to manually hit them... which will be difficult when you are manually weaving the 1:1.X rotations. You can (and should) manually weave the multis and arcanes as necessary using this macro. I would also pick up the badge 2h axe if you can. You don't need too much haste at this point with the badge bow but it's still a wicked weapon for you. |
Regarding the axe however, I did consider it as an offspec item, but as SV I don't think we should be using that due to the big loss in agility? Shouldn't a double Dagger Of Bad Mojo do better with sv hunts?
GftT vs Efficiency
Heyall.
I just made the switch from BM to Survival (was running out of +hit to make cap). My current spec (0/20/41) chooses a couple points of efficiency over go for the throat. I am wondering if this is a boneheaded thing to do. Is there a thread/post about it i missed?
I've been BM for quite some time so I'd appreciate any niggling spec/gear critiques if someone is bored.
I just made the switch from BM to Survival (was running out of +hit to make cap). My current spec (0/20/41) chooses a couple points of efficiency over go for the throat. I am wondering if this is a boneheaded thing to do. Is there a thread/post about it i missed?
I've been BM for quite some time so I'd appreciate any niggling spec/gear critiques if someone is bored.
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Originally Posted by Sayr
Heyall.
I just made the switch from BM to Survival (was running out of +hit to make cap). My current spec (0/20/41) chooses a couple points of efficiency over go for the throat. I am wondering if this is a boneheaded thing to do. Is there a thread/post about it i missed? I've been BM for quite some time so I'd appreciate any niggling spec/gear critiques if someone is bored. |
Repost due to being the last post of a page when people were alreadyd ealing with something else at the time.
Only changes now are that I may luckily be getting into Hyjal or BT, possibly both, sometime soon.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Hello all, Serf here. Was wondering what I could do to increase my DPS. here's my Armory...
My Armory And right now I'm stuck at doing only SSC (early SSC, aka hydross, Lurker, Leo and last week was our first down of Morogrim) and sometimes TK (A'lar/Loot Reaver). Can't get a Hyjal or BT to save my life (or get new lewts) and our ZA run just cannot down Jan'alai for some reason, so at best we can assume three chests, but no Hex Lord or Zul'Jin gear. Be.imba.hu rates my gear ratio as being well in excess of being BT/Hyjal worthy. Within those parameters, what can I do better? I average 800-900 DPS usually, using this macro; #showtooltip Steady Shot /castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); and manually weaving in arcanes and multis when I need to due to moving about or needing to not use multi-targetting attacks to not break CC. I've been looking to pick up the Ranger-General's Chestguard off Hydross, once it drops again and the shaman doesn't get it (-.-) as well as Trollbane, once it finally appears in the chest instead of that stupid Staff of Dark Mending. Any help would be nice. Oh, i also use Major Agi pots and agi food, of course. With Mark of the Wild, Kings, and both food and elixir, I easily pass 1K agi, if anyone wonders, somewhere in the range of 1030 or so. |
Only changes now are that I may luckily be getting into Hyjal or BT, possibly both, sometime soon.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Hi everyone.
I have been reading through these forums for a while now, mainly the Survival class mechanic discussions and i have not seen any EW calculators that were available to download. So i have been working on my spreadsheet today and have just finished it.
Here is a link to the download. The password is EJtribute
MegaShare.com Free Webhosting
Let me know what you think and if you think my values are wrong.
Many thanks to Rivkah for these values Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics .
I have been reading through these forums for a while now, mainly the Survival class mechanic discussions and i have not seen any EW calculators that were available to download. So i have been working on my spreadsheet today and have just finished it.
Here is a link to the download. The password is EJtribute
MegaShare.com Free Webhosting
Let me know what you think and if you think my values are wrong.
Many thanks to Rivkah for these values Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics .
Last edited by Trojansgreed : 07/25/08 at 8:07 AM.
Wind,
yes, use the 3:2 or cast/cast macro with the kill command/lightning breath line in it so you can cast all three of those spells with one button and avoid possible mistakes by having to hit 3 different buttons repeatedly.
You're right that you're losing about 60 agility by using badge axe over the trollbane... I would make the decision between the two as follows:
A. if you are using badge bow, get the badge axe as well since it will be VERY Difficult to maintain a 1:1.5 rotation with that weapons speed. Youl'll be forced to use a 1:1.4 rotation and so speeding it up with the haste from the badge axe will be quite useful
B. if you're using a 3.0 speed weapon, use only as much haste as you need to keep a 1:1.5 rotation going... this means that the 55 haste from the badge axe will likely make you shoot way too fast and so you would do well with trollbane... Either way... you might consider the S3 axe in this case.
yes, use the 3:2 or cast/cast macro with the kill command/lightning breath line in it so you can cast all three of those spells with one button and avoid possible mistakes by having to hit 3 different buttons repeatedly.
You're right that you're losing about 60 agility by using badge axe over the trollbane... I would make the decision between the two as follows:
A. if you are using badge bow, get the badge axe as well since it will be VERY Difficult to maintain a 1:1.5 rotation with that weapons speed. Youl'll be forced to use a 1:1.4 rotation and so speeding it up with the haste from the badge axe will be quite useful
B. if you're using a 3.0 speed weapon, use only as much haste as you need to keep a 1:1.5 rotation going... this means that the 55 haste from the badge axe will likely make you shoot way too fast and so you would do well with trollbane... Either way... you might consider the S3 axe in this case.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Okay so, right now my guild is getting ready to jump into BT. In Hyjal im doing about 1100-1300 dps on normal fights, and like 1600-1700 on a boss with low armor.
-I have a DST
-1:1.5 rotation currently
-Have badge bow
-I use Ancient Amani Longbow for 3.0
-You can see my spec on armory 0/27/34
My question is, with my current setup, what can I change to increase my DPS.
Okay so, right now my guild is getting ready to jump into BT. In Hyjal im doing about 1100-1300 dps on normal fights, and like 1600-1700 on a boss with low armor.
-I have a DST
-1:1.5 rotation currently
-Have badge bow
-I use Ancient Amani Longbow for 3.0
-You can see my spec on armory 0/27/34
My question is, with my current setup, what can I change to increase my DPS.
Hmm,
After reading a lot of replies here i was shocked at the amount of DPS people are claiming they do. 1800DPS? 1600DPS?
i have 4 set bonus of tier 6 and i normally get around 1300 DPS in BT. I use 1:1:5 rotation and use a wind serpent with go for the throat etc. raid buffed my agility is around 1300 with GOA and crit chance 52% with LOP. I should be doing more DPS? When I don’t have GOA or LOP its around 1100DPS o.O!
My unbuffed agility is 941
Crit chance 38.01%
The World of Warcraft Armory
That is my armory page and my current spec, slightly weird but it gives me more agility.
If anyone could give me any advice on how to increase my DPS? Or any item/spec changes that would benefit. I would appreciate it..I dont really understand how these people are claiming 1600DPS/1800DPS with surv spec and i want to know!
Thanks
Sarah
After reading a lot of replies here i was shocked at the amount of DPS people are claiming they do. 1800DPS? 1600DPS?
i have 4 set bonus of tier 6 and i normally get around 1300 DPS in BT. I use 1:1:5 rotation and use a wind serpent with go for the throat etc. raid buffed my agility is around 1300 with GOA and crit chance 52% with LOP. I should be doing more DPS? When I don’t have GOA or LOP its around 1100DPS o.O!
My unbuffed agility is 941
Crit chance 38.01%
The World of Warcraft Armory
That is my armory page and my current spec, slightly weird but it gives me more agility.
If anyone could give me any advice on how to increase my DPS? Or any item/spec changes that would benefit. I would appreciate it..I dont really understand how these people are claiming 1600DPS/1800DPS with surv spec and i want to know!
Thanks
Sarah
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Originally Posted by Zombeana
Hmm,
After reading a lot of replies here i was shocked at the amount of DPS people are claiming they do. 1800DPS? 1600DPS? i have 4 set bonus of tier 6 and i normally get around 1300 DPS in BT. I use 1:1:5 rotation and use a wind serpent with go for the throat etc. raid buffed my agility is around 1300 with GOA and crit chance 52% with LOP. I should be doing more DPS? When I don’t have GOA or LOP its around 1100DPS o.O! My unbuffed agility is 941 Crit chance 38.01% The World of Warcraft Armory That is my armory page and my current spec, slightly weird but it gives me more agility. If anyone could give me any advice on how to increase my DPS? Or any item/spec changes that would benefit. I would appreciate it..I dont really understand how these people are claiming 1600DPS/1800DPS with surv spec and i want to know! Thanks Sarah |
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
I've managed to get my hands on a few hearts of darkness recently and crafted the Bindings of Lightning Reflexes. I'm also next in line for Cloak of Fiends whenever it drops but I have a question as to where to spend my badges next. Should I get the badge chest and further increase my haste (at the cost of almost 1% crit) or get the badge xbow for higher dps (but at the cost of 22agi/25ap and some crit over sunfury bow because of losing troll racial for bows). I've put them both into cheeky's spreadsheet but the both provide roughly the same boost from what I can see although I may have some settings wrong or something as I am somewhat newbish at cheeky's spreadsheet.
Last edited by Slager : Today at 10:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by ohrion
Without a WWS report we can't really tell you what you're doing wrong. You're spec isn't helping your DPS much I would go for one of the standards discussed here at length depending on your gear level.
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Originally Posted by Zombeana
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I did notice that your shots are hitting a bit lower than mine normally do.
Gorefiend, RoS, and anything in Hyjal save Archimonde will give some better numbers to look at.
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Originally Posted by Zombeana
Hmm,
After reading a lot of replies here i was shocked at the amount of DPS people are claiming they do. 1800DPS? 1600DPS? i have 4 set bonus of tier 6 and i normally get around 1300 DPS in BT. I use 1:1:5 rotation and use a wind serpent with go for the throat etc. raid buffed my agility is around 1300 with GOA and crit chance 52% with LOP. I should be doing more DPS? When I don’t have GOA or LOP its around 1100DPS o.O! My unbuffed agility is 941 Crit chance 38.01% The World of Warcraft Armory That is my armory page and my current spec, slightly weird but it gives me more agility. If anyone could give me any advice on how to increase my DPS? Or any item/spec changes that would benefit. I would appreciate it..I dont really understand how these people are claiming 1600DPS/1800DPS with surv spec and i want to know! Thanks Sarah |
There are some fights that are good for judging your DPS. Teron Gorefiend is a good one to test on in BT to get an idea of what your raid DPS really is. I do between 1600 and 1750 on that fight but the end raid stat will be more like 1100. On ROS for example I sometimes do 2000+ but this is not a true picture as the head has 0 armour.
I would suggest that if you can add some haste gear then you can use Manito's macro. The ideal (and also my aim atm) is 80 haste with a 3.0 sec bow for a Heavy Steady 3:2 rotation. That seems to have been tried and tested for max dps. However, you can also use that Macro with only 25 haste and it works a pretty nice 2:1 with a 3.0 sec bow. The beauty of the macro as it works with extra haste very well. (Ignore the fact I have the Badge bow on atm - when I compare to the Serpent Bow the DPS is so close I cannot work out which is best. )
Just throw in the odd multi shot at the right time for some additional pew.
Personally I am going for Cloak of Fiends (ZA) and Shivering Felspine (Sunwell Trash) to get me near enough to the 80 haste mark but there are other options: Bindings of Lightning Reflexes (BT Trash Pattern), Valestalker Girdle (MH) and Hard Khorium Band (Sunwell Trash Pattern - assuming you can find someone to make you one for a reasonable fee).
I find that Readiness spec works best for me atm as you can do 2 x Rapid fire in a row. Try to mix this in between bloodlusts and other haste adding abilities and you will kick bottom with ur gear. But there are a number of different specs you can play with.
Concerning spec - I would get rid of combat experience as it does not give you as much benefit as you might think. I think you need to go for one of the tried and tested specs and you will have more joy.
Have a look at Rivkahs guide:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
It will help you choose a spec.
You can test on Dr.Boom in Netherstorm 4/5 times with different macros and specs to see which one works best for you.
I sound like I know what i'm talking about right? - Well most of this was learnt in this thread.
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Originally Posted by myonions
However, you can also use that Macro with only 25 haste and it works a pretty nice 2:1 with a 3.0 sec bow.
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Essentially, weaving arcane and multi shots when possible should in theory produce better DPS than a 2:1 by a fair amount and a 3:2 by a reasonable amount as well. The only time you're better off just spamming auto and steady shots is when you hit the 1:1 haste level.
With your gear (Zombeana) I would suggest the 20/41 spec (as myonions did) and I would stick to the 1.5:1 rotation for the most part. See where you end up with those changes.
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
muffpox on survival.
Survival raiding is essentially the buffing spec of the hunter class. Here we have the perfect candidate to pickup 5/5 Improved Hunter’s Mark. Yet, the buffage spoken of is Expose Weakness. A specialized role within a raid that given the right circumstances puts the Survival hunter in a position to trade personal DPS for agility so that melee and hunters can benefit as much as possible from the Survivalist’s critical hits.
I assume 3/3 EW is mandatory. The argument that nears, promoting a hybrid 0-27/28-34/33, stems from the view Readiness is a “6pt talent.” I cannot credit properly the source but I’m pretty sure it has come up on these forums that Master Tactician within a 25 person raid is relatively useless, given the high buffed crit % of most raiders and the inconsistency that is inherent with crit-streams. If increasing DPS is the issue, respeccing Beast Mastery would likely do just that, +hit isn’t hard to cap with or without Surefootedness.
I believe that for the one Survival hunter in a raid to run with any less agility than could be had is a raid-DPS loss that is not compensated by the personal increases of the Survival hunter’s speccing or gearing under their potential agility.
It is true that a threshold exists where the lack of physical damage-doing raiders might call for more personal DPS as EW would not hold its own as a beneficial buff anymore; but, at that point you might as well spec BM and try to keep Ferocious Inspiration up for those Locks and Mages or if you’re lucky an Elemental Shammy and not any healers in your group.
Arguing against the standard 0-20-41, I believe the stat increases from Combat Experience outweigh having readiness available. The hybrid-EW spec 0-27/28-34/33 has a floating point, you could also try 1-27-33, but I like it as 1/3 Thrill of the Hunt. Ranged Weapon Specialization is another option, but there are many.
All this being said, am I off my rocker here? I do think this only applies to a 25 person raid unless a 10man is physical damage heavy. Is the consensus at ease with more than one Survival hunter in a raid being overkill and gimped-by-spec DPS?
I do not have spreadsheets for my claim that a raid benefits most from the Survival hunter taking Combat Experience over Readiness (or any other talents that increases the hunter’s personal DPS) as EW’s gains create more raid-wide DPS, given the proper makeup. If the benefits of EW are not sufficient, BM is more beneficial to a raid. The benefits of 2% more agility versus a 5min cool-down and proccing 10% inc crit when you already have a pile.... I hope my lack of data can be forgiven and a more technical response could be given in support or against my claim.
Someone asked for EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
I assume 3/3 EW is mandatory. The argument that nears, promoting a hybrid 0-27/28-34/33, stems from the view Readiness is a “6pt talent.” I cannot credit properly the source but I’m pretty sure it has come up on these forums that Master Tactician within a 25 person raid is relatively useless, given the high buffed crit % of most raiders and the inconsistency that is inherent with crit-streams. If increasing DPS is the issue, respeccing Beast Mastery would likely do just that, +hit isn’t hard to cap with or without Surefootedness.
I believe that for the one Survival hunter in a raid to run with any less agility than could be had is a raid-DPS loss that is not compensated by the personal increases of the Survival hunter’s speccing or gearing under their potential agility.
It is true that a threshold exists where the lack of physical damage-doing raiders might call for more personal DPS as EW would not hold its own as a beneficial buff anymore; but, at that point you might as well spec BM and try to keep Ferocious Inspiration up for those Locks and Mages or if you’re lucky an Elemental Shammy and not any healers in your group.
Arguing against the standard 0-20-41, I believe the stat increases from Combat Experience outweigh having readiness available. The hybrid-EW spec 0-27/28-34/33 has a floating point, you could also try 1-27-33, but I like it as 1/3 Thrill of the Hunt. Ranged Weapon Specialization is another option, but there are many.
All this being said, am I off my rocker here? I do think this only applies to a 25 person raid unless a 10man is physical damage heavy. Is the consensus at ease with more than one Survival hunter in a raid being overkill and gimped-by-spec DPS?
I do not have spreadsheets for my claim that a raid benefits most from the Survival hunter taking Combat Experience over Readiness (or any other talents that increases the hunter’s personal DPS) as EW’s gains create more raid-wide DPS, given the proper makeup. If the benefits of EW are not sufficient, BM is more beneficial to a raid. The benefits of 2% more agility versus a 5min cool-down and proccing 10% inc crit when you already have a pile.... I hope my lack of data can be forgiven and a more technical response could be given in support or against my claim.
Someone asked for EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
Last edited by muffpox : Today at 1:06 PM. Reason: talent tree malfunction, ejecting from post
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
I apologize for double posting but the quality of discussion here merited an effort to show something in support of my claim.
I used Rivkah’s EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
Assuming a raid makeup including:
2 rogues, a dps warrior, enhancement shaman, a ret pali, feral druid, protection warrior, 1 BM hunter and 1 survival hunter
[at 1000 agil] that's a total of 673 dps gained with a 100% expose weakness uptime [+22 TPS].
From 1020 agility your raid will gain 255 AP for a total of 686.23 dps gain assuming 100% uptime. In addition your protection warrior will gain 22.44 TPS
I used 100% uptime for 1020 agil only to compare with the set Rhivkah gave. From the 2% agility increase of Combat Experience the raid gains what looks to be only about 13 dps and maybe one more threat every sec for the tank. I am less sure of the benefits of hybrid versus 0-20-41. Of course the given make-up could easily include more melee and hunters in a raid group. This would escalate the importance of max agility. Is it enough though?
I used Rivkah’s EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
Assuming a raid makeup including:
2 rogues, a dps warrior, enhancement shaman, a ret pali, feral druid, protection warrior, 1 BM hunter and 1 survival hunter
[at 1000 agil] that's a total of 673 dps gained with a 100% expose weakness uptime [+22 TPS].
From 1020 agility your raid will gain 255 AP for a total of 686.23 dps gain assuming 100% uptime. In addition your protection warrior will gain 22.44 TPS
I used 100% uptime for 1020 agil only to compare with the set Rhivkah gave. From the 2% agility increase of Combat Experience the raid gains what looks to be only about 13 dps and maybe one more threat every sec for the tank. I am less sure of the benefits of hybrid versus 0-20-41. Of course the given make-up could easily include more melee and hunters in a raid group. This would escalate the importance of max agility. Is it enough though?
Last edited by muffpox : 07/28/08 at 1:44 PM. Reason: pasted text was messy
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
...
1:1.5 => 1597 DPS and 250 average EW AP and 1618 DPS and 251 EW AP 1:1.4 => 1614 DPS and 251 average EW AP and 1694 DPS and 254 EW AP 2:1 => 1478 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1504 DPS and 248 EW AP 3:2 => 1467 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1614 DPS and 252 EW AP 1:1 => 1353 DPS and 239 average EW AP and 1818 DPS and 259 EW AP As can be seen, the 2:1 and 3:2 are vastly inferior at both unhasted and rapid fire than the 1:1.4 rotation (and 1:1.5). In fact from 0 to 1000 haste, the 1:1.4 vastly outperforms the 2:1 and 3:2 since it does more shots per second by squeezing in arcane shots and multishots between auto-steadies. Although the 1:1 starts way worse, its performance improves more with haste and outperforms the after about 400 haste. Now these results are because I have the badge crossbow and have added enough passive haste (over 25) to make the 1:1.4 always outperform the 1:1.5. Thus, my optimal rotation is the 1:1.4 from 0 to 400 haste and then the 1:1 after. .... |
I was thinking about this information, and do you have an OOM time for these different rotations. It's all well and good to keep these rotations going like the 1:1.4 and 1:1.5 however, I have found them to use excessive amounts of mana. This results in having to use (fel) mana pots rather than haste pots. Furthermore, do you include drum rotations, heroism usage.
Pretty much all the top survival dps WWS reports that I have seen have hunters using 2:1/3:2/1:1 changing rotations depending on their current haste.
Well the big issue with combat experience is the amount of agility it gives you is teeny. If you're running at 900 agility unbuffed, that's a whopping 18 agility, buffed at 1200 is 24 agility. Instead you could be gaining 2% total dps. I ran the math on my calculator (which for the record has estimated numbers for dps and will never be 100% accurate) with my typical raid makeup and 24 agility gains the raid 18.43 dps with 90% uptime. Assuming you are putting out 1300 dps, 2% dps gain would be 26 dps. So ya I know on paper combat expertise looks good for a survival hunter, but it doesn't seem to be as good an RDPS gain as ranged weapon specialization. Plus in smaller environments (5-10 man) or with less physical dps the gain would be even less.
I will say that my dps was similar to yours shortly after I hit 4 pc T6. I don't think I was timing my shots optimally or something but really when I swapped out my belt for the haste leather belt (only haste I had at the time), put on my DST, switched to 7/20/34 and switched to the heavy steady rotation, my dps went up like 200+. So for me it was a good change. However my gun seems to be easier to reach the sweet spot on haste than the 3.0 weapons most survival hunters are using, so that probably made it easier for me. Now that I have a shivering felspine I'm at a fairly good speed and I've been very happy with the change. I don't know if it will work better for you though since you have a different speed weapon and different gear.
In reference to the WWS you posted, Council is a very bad fight for dps measurement, I don't think I've ever broken 1400 on that fight because there's just so much movement involved and I have to keep up scorpid sting as well. I also notice you're the only hunter. I've noticed that when I'm the only hunter it tends to hurt my dps some, probably due to the way the hunter's mark buff scaling works- it takes longer to ramp up. Illidan is also terrible for dps measuring. I tend to do my best dps on fights like Teron and Rage. I find RoS not so good for dps measurement though because of the terrible pushback in phase 2, plus it tends to be so threat tight for me that one FD resist can kill my output.
I've read the recent analysis posted by Whitefyst and it's very interesting but I have to say that basing an entire analysis of shot rotations on Cheekys may not make it completely accurate. Cheekys can only model things so well and I have a hard time believing that all the conventional wisdom currently being followed in the survival community is wrong because analysis of spreadsheet data says so. It may be one of those real world application versus on paper sort of problems or it may just be that people just aren't as good at reproducing perfect rotations so the heavy steady style leads to people doing better in practice, but based on my own experience and what I've seen people doing in general, I have to take it all with a grain of salt. The fact that nobody seems to be able to consistently agree on what the perfect spec and rotation is for survival (even for a specific gear set) indicates to me that the differences aren't as big as folks make them out to be in the first place and that the variations have more to do with playstyle.
I'm really looking forward to this expansion so we can stop arguing about perfect shot rotations and get back to arguing about basic specs
I will say that my dps was similar to yours shortly after I hit 4 pc T6. I don't think I was timing my shots optimally or something but really when I swapped out my belt for the haste leather belt (only haste I had at the time), put on my DST, switched to 7/20/34 and switched to the heavy steady rotation, my dps went up like 200+. So for me it was a good change. However my gun seems to be easier to reach the sweet spot on haste than the 3.0 weapons most survival hunters are using, so that probably made it easier for me. Now that I have a shivering felspine I'm at a fairly good speed and I've been very happy with the change. I don't know if it will work better for you though since you have a different speed weapon and different gear.
In reference to the WWS you posted, Council is a very bad fight for dps measurement, I don't think I've ever broken 1400 on that fight because there's just so much movement involved and I have to keep up scorpid sting as well. I also notice you're the only hunter. I've noticed that when I'm the only hunter it tends to hurt my dps some, probably due to the way the hunter's mark buff scaling works- it takes longer to ramp up. Illidan is also terrible for dps measuring. I tend to do my best dps on fights like Teron and Rage. I find RoS not so good for dps measurement though because of the terrible pushback in phase 2, plus it tends to be so threat tight for me that one FD resist can kill my output.
I've read the recent analysis posted by Whitefyst and it's very interesting but I have to say that basing an entire analysis of shot rotations on Cheekys may not make it completely accurate. Cheekys can only model things so well and I have a hard time believing that all the conventional wisdom currently being followed in the survival community is wrong because analysis of spreadsheet data says so. It may be one of those real world application versus on paper sort of problems or it may just be that people just aren't as good at reproducing perfect rotations so the heavy steady style leads to people doing better in practice, but based on my own experience and what I've seen people doing in general, I have to take it all with a grain of salt. The fact that nobody seems to be able to consistently agree on what the perfect spec and rotation is for survival (even for a specific gear set) indicates to me that the differences aren't as big as folks make them out to be in the first place and that the variations have more to do with playstyle.
I'm really looking forward to this expansion so we can stop arguing about perfect shot rotations and get back to arguing about basic specs
Hee muffpox, I was typing my reply while you posted yours- my numbers were based off of my guild's usual makeup with 2 rogues, a ret pali, 2 feral druids, 2 BM hunters, survival hunter, dps warrior and prot warrior.
Namarus brings up a good point too, when I switched to heavy steady I had a lot less mana issues, even though I went from 2 points in thrill of the hunt to 1 and dropped a few points in efficiency. When I was running a 1:1.5 I found on a lot of fights that even with chain potting I couldn't maintain it that well, I would get low on mana and have to drop my specials out of the rotation for a bit to make it to my next pot timer. I rarely am that bad off with the heavy steady rotation, although on a few fights (Shaz, Council) I still have to slow down my shots a bit to get by, but I also keep scorpid up constantly on those fights which is a severe mana drain.
Namarus brings up a good point too, when I switched to heavy steady I had a lot less mana issues, even though I went from 2 points in thrill of the hunt to 1 and dropped a few points in efficiency. When I was running a 1:1.5 I found on a lot of fights that even with chain potting I couldn't maintain it that well, I would get low on mana and have to drop my specials out of the rotation for a bit to make it to my next pot timer. I rarely am that bad off with the heavy steady rotation, although on a few fights (Shaz, Council) I still have to slow down my shots a bit to get by, but I also keep scorpid up constantly on those fights which is a severe mana drain.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
switched to 7/20/34 and switched to the heavy steady rotation, my dps went up like 200+. So for me it was a good change.
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I got a DST recently and have about 122(97 if I use Gorefiend's cape) passive haste, but don't have my 4 pc T6 yet. Not sure if I should too respec to 7/20/34 or stick with my current 0/2X/3X spec with the 1:1.5 rotation =/
The World of Warcraft Armory
Yes, heavy steady rotation is the rotation created by the BM 3:2 macro. I've been using that term to describe it, since /cast /cast macro is too unwieldy and describing it as a 3:2 for survival is pretty inaccurate. Since the macro is designed to create a rotation with a heavier use of steady shots than auto shots, I think it's a good name
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Originally Posted by muffpox
I apologize for double posting but the quality of discussion here merited an effort to show something in support of my claim.
I used Rivkah’s EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics |
Using the previously accepted AP to dps conversion of .2 to .3 dps/AP with your 255 AP yields 357 to 536 dps, assuming 100% uptime. In practice, I think the low end of the conversion factors tend to be closer to reality.
As such, I'm convinced that the Combat Experience talent is not worth sacrificing either Readiness or Imp AotH in any SV build.
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Originally Posted by myonions
Personally I am going for Cloak of Fiends (ZA) and Shivering Felspine (Sunwell Trash) to get me near enough to the 80 haste mark but there are other options: Bindings of Lightning Reflexes (BT Trash Pattern), Valestalker Girdle (MH) and Hard Khorium Band (Sunwell Trash Pattern - assuming you can find someone to make you one for a reasonable fee).
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Leighlu, some of the estimated dps numbers I'm using are from class spreadsheets (if I recall at least the hunter and rogue ones are), some have been passed onto me by people playing those class/specs who follow the theorycraft. I have been making adjustments here and there as people give them to me, but obviously the numbers are never going to be completely accurate since dps gain from AP depends on many gear factors and is not consistent across the board. If you know of specific corrections that need to be made please let me know. It is clear however from what I've found thus far that dps gain for AP varies significantly depending on class, which is why I tried to build the calculator to be customized to raid makeup.
Regardless of whether you use the generalized AP numbers or my calculator, it seems to be pretty clear that combat expertise is not preferable to ranged weapon specialization. Whether a readiness or imp hawk build is preferable to a ranged weapon specialization build however is another story. I think it's pretty clear that you never want to use a heavy steady rotation with a heavy marks build, but with a 1:1.5 rotation it's less clear as to which one comes out ahead.
Regardless of whether you use the generalized AP numbers or my calculator, it seems to be pretty clear that combat expertise is not preferable to ranged weapon specialization. Whether a readiness or imp hawk build is preferable to a ranged weapon specialization build however is another story. I think it's pretty clear that you never want to use a heavy steady rotation with a heavy marks build, but with a 1:1.5 rotation it's less clear as to which one comes out ahead.
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Originally Posted by germanboy3383
80 haste including a DST or not? i am asking because i am trying to figure out if i could go 3:2 heavy SS rotation with only that little haste. i am sure its more viable to do it with a DST but would a 3:2 without DST be better than the current 1.5:1 rotation i use now?
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I believe the theory is that if you don't have the DST and you don't have a solid drum rotation, you're better off going the readiness route for the extra rapid fires which will proc you into 1:1 rather than relying on quick shots hasting you without actually getting you into a better rotation. I haven't really tested it personally though, I'm just relaying what I've seen conveyed by others.
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Originally Posted by ohrion
Maybe you missed the analysis done recently about shot rotations and maximizing DPS.
Essentially, weaving arcane and multi shots when possible should in theory produce better DPS than a 2:1 by a fair amount and a 3:2 by a reasonable amount as well. The only time you're better off just spamming auto and steady shots is when you hit the 1:1 haste level. With your gear (Zombeana) I would suggest the 20/41 spec (as myonions did) and I would stick to the 1.5:1 rotation for the most part. See where you end up with those changes. |
I do agree though, in theory you should get more weaving in the Arcanes and Multis.
Personally, when affected by lots of haste like Bloodlust or Rapid Fire I always use Manito's only as it adapts automatically to the changes in haste.
When not, or just being affected by smaller amounts of haste like drums I use Either Manitos and weave in Arcanes and Multis or I go back to my old "All Out" macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I think if you read all of the posts here you have enough things to test to keep you busy for a while
I know it kept me busy...poor Dr.Boom....
has anyone ever experienced trouble using the /cast /cast macro over using a /castsequence macro? It seems even when hasted to/under 1.50 speed autoshots, I still end up half the time chain-casting Steadies, while the cast-sequence might delay by a fraction of a second but keeps the two shots in sequence.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Serf
has anyone ever experienced trouble using the /cast /cast macro over using a /castsequence macro? It seems even when hasted to/under 1.50 speed autoshots, I still end up half the time chain-casting Steadies, while the cast-sequence might delay by a fraction of a second but keeps the two shots in sequence.
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Steady chaining remains a serious problem for people using the steady spam macro until they get enough passive haste to let it work properly. Generally speaking worse latency = less required passive haste to get things working smoothly. This absolutely comes down to a situation that is different for each player. Your latency will determine what level of passive haste you need to not chain steadies using the /cast /cast macro. Until you reach that point you should use one of the rotations whitefyst has posted about in the last several pages - 1.4:1, 1.5:1 or work out some other mechanism for you to get the desired result. It takes a lot of work w/ dr boom and recount to work out something that allows you to produce max sv dps until you get enough gear to allow chain mashing the button to work. Failing that you should spec BM until you get the gear. Nobody needs 900dps SV hunters in raids clinging to the "look at all the dps my expose weakness proc makes" thing.
Specifically on castsequence as a means of fixing the situation. Aside from the double latency penalty you pay with it, using a 1:1 rotation the delay is ( your_shot_speed - 1.5 ). It generates pretty terrible SV dps. You can do a steady, steady, auto in a cast sequence which does a 2:1. This again generates pretty terrible SV dps. Some things you can do include:
- Slow up on the macro spamming when the auto shot is ready to fire.
- Hand weave in arcane and/or multi (being instants these give plenty of time for auto to fire).
- Create a bunch of macros set up for varying levels of haste, glue your eyes to something like PowerDisplay and switch on the fly. You lose a good bit as each new macro winds up if you ended on the same shot type the new macro begins with though.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 07/29/08 at 1:24 PM.
So having read the past 5-6 pages in particular, it seems like there is a lot of a disagreement as to whether the 3:2 is "almost as good" as the 1.5:1, even when on Cheeky's it seems like it would be significantly worse. Possiblybecause it's very hard to maintain a perfect 1.5:1 in the real world?
I'm trying survival for the first timne this week, and my plan as of right now is to run the 1.5:1 with BBOTB. using a steady,!auto /castsequence and manually weaving multi/arcane, with a 28/33 Spec (Barrage). I've read this thread and Rivkah's guide, and played with Cheeky's a lot and this definitely seems like the most personal DPS I can get, although mana may be a problem on long fights.
Does this seem reasonable? Or am I underestimating the value of 4pcT6 and a heavy steady rotation, even with basically 0 haste?
I'm trying survival for the first timne this week, and my plan as of right now is to run the 1.5:1 with BBOTB. using a steady,!auto /castsequence and manually weaving multi/arcane, with a 28/33 Spec (Barrage). I've read this thread and Rivkah's guide, and played with Cheeky's a lot and this definitely seems like the most personal DPS I can get, although mana may be a problem on long fights.
Does this seem reasonable? Or am I underestimating the value of 4pcT6 and a heavy steady rotation, even with basically 0 haste?
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
cheeky can't properly handle the 3:2 macro, it can not adopt to the haste effect which might drop the 3:2 to a 1:1 macro, instead the spreadsheet handles the 3:2 macro as a classic cast sequence macro, which in theory yields less DPS.
I am new to survival also, but it seems best to go with a non hasted spec (0/xx/xx) first and a 1.5:1 rotation for the first week or so to get a hang of the new spec and shotrotation. after a week try tweaking the spec, gear, group set up, etc.
PowerDisplay has a haste display?
I am new to survival also, but it seems best to go with a non hasted spec (0/xx/xx) first and a 1.5:1 rotation for the first week or so to get a hang of the new spec and shotrotation. after a week try tweaking the spec, gear, group set up, etc.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
...
- Slow up on the macro spamming when the auto shot is ready to fire. - Hand weave in arcane and/or multi (being instants these give plenty of time for auto to fire). - Create a bunch of macros set up for varying levels of haste, glue your eyes to something like PowerDisplay and switch on the fly. You lose a good bit as each new macro winds up if you ended on the same shot type the new macro begins with though. |
Last edited by Aldriana : 07/29/08 at 4:05 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Macro Reference
Hello All,
I've been following this thread for many, many months. Took a break from WoW for several weeks, but I'm ready to get back into raiding and I'm looking to optimize my DPS, specifically with regard to macros, since that's really all I can control at the moment. I know there's differing opinions regarding whether or not to use macros, so let's just assume I'm one of those guys that just can't get hand-timing down.
I've seen lots of references to 1.5:1, 1.4:1, 3:2, 2:1 rotations, and I think I pretty much understand that the name reflects specials:auto with the difference being weapon speed under different circumstances (i.e. levels of haste). I wanted to come up with a reference, for myself, of macros that represent some of these rotations.
Looking through these and other forums, I've come up with the following:
I've indicated the ones that I use, and they provide me with (I think) decent DPS. The macros in the "Doesn't Work" section have been posted in places, but when I try to use them, it never seems to get to the /castrandom part... unless, of course, I was doing something wrong. Also, I know that the /castsequence ones are very dependent on latency (i.e. if I have a high latency, these will gimp my DPS quite a bit).
So, my question:
I'm not necessarily looking for anyone to tell me which one is better than the other. I know I have some Dr. Boom and other testing to do. What I am looking for, is just to make sure that I've included all the possibilities here and, specifically in the case of the /castsequence ones, that I've included the correct number of shots.
Do the /castsequence ones illustrate a 1.5:1 or 1.4:1?
Now, if anyone wants to comment or give me their opinion with regard to the above, I'd appreciate it. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a mind for numbers, so I can't really provide any empirical evidence for any of these... if anyone else would like to, I invite you to do so.
As a side note, I know this isn't the place for a "rate my build" post, but if anyone is bored and wants to take a look and let me know if there are any holes, I'd appreciate it. I've tried to get as much of the best gear that I can for where I'm at, and my guild is making it's way through T5 content ATM. I know I still need some work; specifically, the pieces I need to upgrade ASAP are belt, boots, and, maybe, bracers. I've decided to wait until an upgrade to my [Hauberk of the War Bringer] before getting the chest enchant. Also, been trying to decide if I should start gemming with +10 Agi now or wait a little while yet... they're not cheap.
Anyway, thanks in advance for any comments/opinions.
I've been following this thread for many, many months. Took a break from WoW for several weeks, but I'm ready to get back into raiding and I'm looking to optimize my DPS, specifically with regard to macros, since that's really all I can control at the moment. I know there's differing opinions regarding whether or not to use macros, so let's just assume I'm one of those guys that just can't get hand-timing down.
I've seen lots of references to 1.5:1, 1.4:1, 3:2, 2:1 rotations, and I think I pretty much understand that the name reflects specials:auto with the difference being weapon speed under different circumstances (i.e. levels of haste). I wanted to come up with a reference, for myself, of macros that represent some of these rotations.
Looking through these and other forums, I've come up with the following:
------- With CC ------- /castsequence Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot - OR - /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /cast Arcane Shot - OR - (What I currently use) /cast !Auto Shot /castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot ---------- Without CC ---------- /castsequence Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot - OR - /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot - OR - (What I currently use) /cast !Auto Shot /castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot ------------ Doesn't Work ------------ /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot - OR - /cast !Auto Shot /cast Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
So, my question:
I'm not necessarily looking for anyone to tell me which one is better than the other. I know I have some Dr. Boom and other testing to do. What I am looking for, is just to make sure that I've included all the possibilities here and, specifically in the case of the /castsequence ones, that I've included the correct number of shots.
Do the /castsequence ones illustrate a 1.5:1 or 1.4:1?
Now, if anyone wants to comment or give me their opinion with regard to the above, I'd appreciate it. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a mind for numbers, so I can't really provide any empirical evidence for any of these... if anyone else would like to, I invite you to do so.
As a side note, I know this isn't the place for a "rate my build" post, but if anyone is bored and wants to take a look and let me know if there are any holes, I'd appreciate it. I've tried to get as much of the best gear that I can for where I'm at, and my guild is making it's way through T5 content ATM. I know I still need some work; specifically, the pieces I need to upgrade ASAP are belt, boots, and, maybe, bracers. I've decided to wait until an upgrade to my [Hauberk of the War Bringer] before getting the chest enchant. Also, been trying to decide if I should start gemming with +10 Agi now or wait a little while yet... they're not cheap.
Anyway, thanks in advance for any comments/opinions.
Last edited by Sinnar : 07/30/08 at 9:42 AM.
I've been using Speedometer to show current attack speed, very helpful.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
PowerDisplay can be configured to show haste level, current weapon speed, crit rate, ranged atk power, etc. Nice and clean.
Sorry I cant trim this any. Here is a shot of my ui from back in February. PowerDisplay is the 4 lines of text to the left of my information bar in the lower center of the screen. 2303 is RAP, 2.52 is current shot speed, 0 haste, 41.67% crit.
Sorry I cant trim this any. Here is a shot of my ui from back in February. PowerDisplay is the 4 lines of text to the left of my information bar in the lower center of the screen. 2303 is RAP, 2.52 is current shot speed, 0 haste, 41.67% crit.
Last edited by QuiggyB : 07/29/08 at 4:33 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
Steady chaining remains a serious problem for people using the steady spam macro until they get enough passive haste to let it work properly. Generally speaking worse latency = less required passive haste to get things working smoothly. This absolutely comes down to a situation that is different for each player. Your latency will determine what level of passive haste you need to not chain steadies using the /cast /cast macro. Until you reach that point you should use one of the rotations whitefyst has posted about in the last several pages - 1.4:1, 1.5:1 or work out some other mechanism for you to get the desired result. It takes a lot of work w/ dr boom and recount to work out something that allows you to produce max sv dps until you get enough gear to allow chain mashing the button to work. Failing that you should spec BM until you get the gear. Nobody needs 900dps SV hunters in raids clinging to the "look at all the dps my expose weakness proc makes" thing.
Specifically on castsequence as a means of fixing the situation. Aside from the double latency penalty you pay with it, using a 1:1 rotation the delay is ( your_shot_speed - 1.5 ). It generates pretty terrible SV dps. You can do a steady, steady, auto in a cast sequence which does a 2:1. This again generates pretty terrible SV dps. Some things you can do include: - Slow up on the macro spamming when the auto shot is ready to fire. - Hand weave in arcane and/or multi (being instants these give plenty of time for auto to fire). - Create a bunch of macros set up for varying levels of haste, glue your eyes to something like PowerDisplay and switch on the fly. You lose a good bit as each new macro winds up if you ended on the same shot type the new macro begins with though. |
Wow Web Stats
I think my DPS as a SV with full raid buffs, and the equivilently low quality gear, using said macro, was rather good. I play with about 200 MS latency usually, around 40 FPS. I definitely could have used my racials, trinkets, and RF more often to get a better showing, but i don't think it's bad for my first BT run.
EDIT: The other two hunters, Runamuk (MM) and Daorc (BM) are much better geared than me, and utilize the /cast/cast macros. There isn't a huge gap between us, but it basically goes as one usually expects- Bm at top, followed a bit lower by MM, then SV at the bottom for personal DPS but buffing everyone (my agi was at 1144, so that's a lot of EW AP. )
Last edited by Serf : 07/29/08 at 9:15 PM.
Serf, I'm looking at your WWS report and it confuses me. First of all I'm not sure why you're raiding with a hunter specced MM (in his armory he's currently survival). Second, Daorc's shot breakdown is really screwy on the Najentus kill, I don't have any idea what rotation he's using but it doesn't look right. Third, I'm looking at your shot rotation and I'm not entirely clear on what you were doing either. You seem to have been doing a 1:1.5 style rotation but you have only about half as many autoshots as Daorc. Even though a survival hunter shoots much slower than BM, I would still think you wouldn't be that much lower. So I'm not sure what's wrong there but something seems to be.
Looking at your gear btw, you should really get a crit scope on that gun (S3 helm wouldn't hurt either). AP is better than +stats on bracers too. Your spec also looks a little weird to me, 25 points in marks without barrage or IAS seems nice for mana but you probably are giving up some potential damage, and I see you guys are getting judgement of wisdom and I didn't see you pop any pots on Najentus so I'm guessing you can afford to give up some of the mana regen for a more damage oriented spec and use pots more if need be.
Looking at your gear btw, you should really get a crit scope on that gun (S3 helm wouldn't hurt either). AP is better than +stats on bracers too. Your spec also looks a little weird to me, 25 points in marks without barrage or IAS seems nice for mana but you probably are giving up some potential damage, and I see you guys are getting judgement of wisdom and I didn't see you pop any pots on Najentus so I'm guessing you can afford to give up some of the mana regen for a more damage oriented spec and use pots more if need be.
I don't pop mana pots because I never leave Viper. I've found that the 155 AP it gives isn't worth the lost of the longevity having Viper on from the start gives me. Even at the low end it's still recovering a very nice portion of mana every tick.
As for the crit scope: With a base 34.24% crit rate, I'm pretty sure that a little more crit won't help me as much as a damage scope, or am I misinterpreting the effect of damage scopes as increasing the weapon damage ratio (177-329 going to 187-339) when it is something else altogether?
As for Assault to bracers, yeah, I know that it gives a higher benefit than stats, but I'm an agility whore. >.>; The extra stamina helps a little when it comes to raid-wide damage (I'm very barely over the minimum health cap for naj unbuffed) and since Lightning Reflexes adds all your agility together before multiplying it, it seems to givea better bonus than most calculators I've seen give it credit for, though it is still DPS-wise inferior to Assault, of course.
As for the 25 points into Marks it's for the efficiency and for the Imp. Hunter's Mark; i'm sacrificing the bonii of IAS and barrage for even more raid utility. I also refuse to chain chug pots because I feel that that method is a format of exploiting something they didn't want, which it seems is apparent with what has been revealed to us about WotLK. It always seemed like a bit of a cop out. (personal opinion, I know it ends up making me worse for DPS. i appreciate the pointer though.)
For the half as many auto shots on my part, he has 1.9 un-modified haste for his autoshots. I have 2.52. I also tend to lead with arcane or multi, and the mobs don`t last all that long, heh- at least that`s what it seems to be to me. I`m not really sure as to what`s up with it for sure myself. I use a steady/auto macro with hand-weaved arcane and multis, using the castsequence macro I posted in a previous post.
As for the crit scope: With a base 34.24% crit rate, I'm pretty sure that a little more crit won't help me as much as a damage scope, or am I misinterpreting the effect of damage scopes as increasing the weapon damage ratio (177-329 going to 187-339) when it is something else altogether?
As for Assault to bracers, yeah, I know that it gives a higher benefit than stats, but I'm an agility whore. >.>; The extra stamina helps a little when it comes to raid-wide damage (I'm very barely over the minimum health cap for naj unbuffed) and since Lightning Reflexes adds all your agility together before multiplying it, it seems to givea better bonus than most calculators I've seen give it credit for, though it is still DPS-wise inferior to Assault, of course.
As for the 25 points into Marks it's for the efficiency and for the Imp. Hunter's Mark; i'm sacrificing the bonii of IAS and barrage for even more raid utility. I also refuse to chain chug pots because I feel that that method is a format of exploiting something they didn't want, which it seems is apparent with what has been revealed to us about WotLK. It always seemed like a bit of a cop out. (personal opinion, I know it ends up making me worse for DPS. i appreciate the pointer though.)
For the half as many auto shots on my part, he has 1.9 un-modified haste for his autoshots. I have 2.52. I also tend to lead with arcane or multi, and the mobs don`t last all that long, heh- at least that`s what it seems to be to me. I`m not really sure as to what`s up with it for sure myself. I use a steady/auto macro with hand-weaved arcane and multis, using the castsequence macro I posted in a previous post.
Why is Daoc the BM hunter using AS and MS? And why does he use a Thundering Skyfire Diamond for his meta gem?
Also, just because there was a nerf to potions in the WotLK beta does not mean that you are 'exploiting' anything in TBC. If you follow through with that kind of logic then you should stop using a drum rotation also, since that was also given a 2 min party wide debuff.
Also, just because there was a nerf to potions in the WotLK beta does not mean that you are 'exploiting' anything in TBC. If you follow through with that kind of logic then you should stop using a drum rotation also, since that was also given a 2 min party wide debuff.
Serf, it's nice that you're happy with your damage for your first BT raid, but I have to tell you, you could be doing better. You are choosing not to avail yourself of all the tools available at your disposal and the result is that you are not contributing as much as you could to the raid. I understand that you may not want to spend a lot of consumables on farm content and that's probably fine, but your guild is going to be learning new fights where your damage output matters a lot more, and if you aren't willing to make an effort to maximize yourself you're only going to be hurting them.
Chugging mana pots is not violating anything, it's compensating for Blizzard's failure to design hunter mana regeneration properly. Blizzard tunes fights with the understanding that you're going to use all the consumable options available to you. The reason they are changing it in the expansion is so they can tune fights to not require the pots and ideally they are also planning to include major mana regeneration changes to go with it. Using viper all the time when you could potion to do more damage with hawk is basically killing your dps- viper is meant to be used to get you through tight mana periods, not meant to be a primary aspect to use throughout a boss, this is why it gives you more regen when you have less mana. Plus if you regularly have judgement of wisdom available (I noticed you had it for Naj but not sure about other fights) then you should be regenning quite a bit of mana from that, which means you can afford to go with a spec that's not quite as mana friendly.
I don't really feel like looking up the data for you right now, but the crit scope is definitely better for you than the damage scope. 34% crit isn't really that high for survival, usually at 35% is the recommended level to get a windserpent pet (if your raid has no elemental shaman) and most survival hunters at BT level are higher than that.
Agility is nice but remember that the goal of a survival hunter is to raise the total raid dps, not to just make the biggest expose weakness you can. Sometimes your raid dps will benefit more from you going with a lot more personal dps benefit than from a small amount of agility. Yes you do gain from lightning reflexes, but it's still not enough to compensate in this case- basically you get 26.5% bonus to your agility including kings- that's 5.06 agility from +stats, it's not all that much. Assault to bracers definitely comes out ahead. If there are specific fights you need the extra stamina for, you can use some 30 stam food or swap in a piece of gear that has higher stamina- restricting your dps significantly for a 4 stamina gain on your bracers is not the best way to go about fixing the problem. The S3 helm actually would do quite a bit to solve your stamina problem in addition to giving you a large dps gain.
The problem with the way you've specced is that since you have JoW and potions available to you that you aren't making use of (are you using mageblood and mana oils btw?), you don't even really need all the mana regen in your spec. You have 5 points in efficiency and 3 points in thrill of the hunt. Are you actually running out of mana on fights still with pots? If not, then you can afford to give some of it up- a barrage build that includes 2 points in efficiency is one option if you don't want to go too drastic. Your shots would cost a bit more, but you'd gain some damage to your multishots. There are other options, but really a build with 5 points in efficiency and 3 points in thrill of the hunt seems a little overkill to me.
I was looking specifically at the Najentus fight in relation to the shot differential. The gap of .6 weapon speed should not have produced that big a difference in shots I think. Your weapon speed is the same as what I used to run with before I switched to the heavy steady rotation, and looking back at some old WWS reports for the same fight and same length of time, I had a lot more autoshots than you did. I think something is definitely wrong. You are shooting your arcane or multishot after the steady before the next auto right? If you're shooting it after the auto and before the steady, it'd push back your steady which would in turn be pushing back your next auto, and could explain why your shots are so low. Just a theory tho.
Chugging mana pots is not violating anything, it's compensating for Blizzard's failure to design hunter mana regeneration properly. Blizzard tunes fights with the understanding that you're going to use all the consumable options available to you. The reason they are changing it in the expansion is so they can tune fights to not require the pots and ideally they are also planning to include major mana regeneration changes to go with it. Using viper all the time when you could potion to do more damage with hawk is basically killing your dps- viper is meant to be used to get you through tight mana periods, not meant to be a primary aspect to use throughout a boss, this is why it gives you more regen when you have less mana. Plus if you regularly have judgement of wisdom available (I noticed you had it for Naj but not sure about other fights) then you should be regenning quite a bit of mana from that, which means you can afford to go with a spec that's not quite as mana friendly.
I don't really feel like looking up the data for you right now, but the crit scope is definitely better for you than the damage scope. 34% crit isn't really that high for survival, usually at 35% is the recommended level to get a windserpent pet (if your raid has no elemental shaman) and most survival hunters at BT level are higher than that.
Agility is nice but remember that the goal of a survival hunter is to raise the total raid dps, not to just make the biggest expose weakness you can. Sometimes your raid dps will benefit more from you going with a lot more personal dps benefit than from a small amount of agility. Yes you do gain from lightning reflexes, but it's still not enough to compensate in this case- basically you get 26.5% bonus to your agility including kings- that's 5.06 agility from +stats, it's not all that much. Assault to bracers definitely comes out ahead. If there are specific fights you need the extra stamina for, you can use some 30 stam food or swap in a piece of gear that has higher stamina- restricting your dps significantly for a 4 stamina gain on your bracers is not the best way to go about fixing the problem. The S3 helm actually would do quite a bit to solve your stamina problem in addition to giving you a large dps gain.
The problem with the way you've specced is that since you have JoW and potions available to you that you aren't making use of (are you using mageblood and mana oils btw?), you don't even really need all the mana regen in your spec. You have 5 points in efficiency and 3 points in thrill of the hunt. Are you actually running out of mana on fights still with pots? If not, then you can afford to give some of it up- a barrage build that includes 2 points in efficiency is one option if you don't want to go too drastic. Your shots would cost a bit more, but you'd gain some damage to your multishots. There are other options, but really a build with 5 points in efficiency and 3 points in thrill of the hunt seems a little overkill to me.
I was looking specifically at the Najentus fight in relation to the shot differential. The gap of .6 weapon speed should not have produced that big a difference in shots I think. Your weapon speed is the same as what I used to run with before I switched to the heavy steady rotation, and looking back at some old WWS reports for the same fight and same length of time, I had a lot more autoshots than you did. I think something is definitely wrong. You are shooting your arcane or multishot after the steady before the next auto right? If you're shooting it after the auto and before the steady, it'd push back your steady which would in turn be pushing back your next auto, and could explain why your shots are so low. Just a theory tho.
I can strongly suggest you to start using Hawk and manapots, every class has to chainchug something, so dont hold back
This might seem like an ignorant/stupid question, and I apologize in advance..
But has anyone sort of consolidated the information here? Or attempted to? I'm trying to help out my hunters, but I can't exactly wean out all the information in a 150 page BM thread and 100 page Survival thread very easily. Is there a hunter website (ie shadowpriest.com)? Sorry to interrupt the discussion.
But has anyone sort of consolidated the information here? Or attempted to? I'm trying to help out my hunters, but I can't exactly wean out all the information in a 150 page BM thread and 100 page Survival thread very easily. Is there a hunter website (ie shadowpriest.com)? Sorry to interrupt the discussion.
I frequent The Hunting Lodge
Though for Survival many in this thread and those over at the lodge different in their opinion on specs for Survival hunters.
Though for Survival many in this thread and those over at the lodge different in their opinion on specs for Survival hunters.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Well...
Wow Web Stats I think my DPS as a SV with full raid buffs, and the equivilently low quality gear, using said macro, was rather good. I play with about 200 MS latency usually, around 40 FPS. I definitely could have used my racials, trinkets, and RF more often to get a better showing, but i don't think it's bad for my first BT run. EDIT: The other two hunters, Runamuk (MM) and Daorc (BM) are much better geared than me, and utilize the /cast/cast macros. There isn't a huge gap between us, but it basically goes as one usually expects- Bm at top, followed a bit lower by MM, then SV at the bottom for personal DPS but buffing everyone (my agi was at 1144, so that's a lot of EW AP. ) |
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Originally Posted by Serf
has anyone ever experienced trouble using the /cast /cast macro over using a /castsequence macro?
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Originally Posted by wvbean
I frequent The Hunting Lodge
Though for Survival many in this thread and those over at the lodge different in their opinion on specs for Survival hunters. |
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IMPROVED FEIGN DEATH Decreases the chance that your FD will be resisted by up to 4%. A nice talent, but far from a necessary one. Part of what determines if your FD will be resisted is whether or not there is other players generating enough aggro to distract it. Even in 5-mans and Heroics, there should be enough other people generating aggro that you should rarely be resisted in the first place. |
FinishHer - I know of a couple hunters that are working on guides like the enhancement, but because hunter mechanics can change given certain levels of gear, these guides are difficult and time consuming to write. Unless your hunters are willing sift through these threads and actually want to get the most out of their DPS numbers, you'll be fighting an uphill battle.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
So you'll discount an entire website based on one thing you saw and didn't like? Nice philosophy.
Plus you pulled that out of a BM hunter guide. Go to the Survival forums and start some discussion if you want to get their opinions. Quite a few experienced Survival hunters that frequent it that are knowledgeable.
Plus you pulled that out of a BM hunter guide. Go to the Survival forums and start some discussion if you want to get their opinions. Quite a few experienced Survival hunters that frequent it that are knowledgeable.
Last edited by wvbean : 07/30/08 at 1:11 PM.
New Suv Hunter lost in sea of information
First post, so beg your pardon if I violate any posting rules.
In reading through this thread (mostly the last 10-12 pages) and another Suv Hunter forum, I'm left in a state of confusion. I have attempted to follow all the advice listed but cannot seem to break 900 (780-850 usually) DPS in early MH/BT or deep SSC. I have been using a 1.4:1 shot rotation due to having passive haste from my chestpiece (Armory not linked due to the auto linkage in my profile). When I pop Rapid Fire I switch to a 3:2 BM Steady Shot rotation. Using a wind serpent pet as my buffed crit rate is ~34-36%. Lightning breath causes ~150 Damage per use.
I am completely lost as to talent choices. I have seen both the 28/33 and the 20/41 highly advocated. I have not seen the math behind these trees though. I have read the recent posts on shot rotation numbers, but must have missed the theory behind the talent choices.
I am in the process of regemming my gear. I plan to keep the 2 green gems in the chest and legs (meta reqs). All other gems will be +8 or +10 Agi. Other than that, I'm at a loss as to why my personal DPS is so low. I understand my purpose is to support the raid as a whole, (~900 Agi raid buffed, 750 unbuffed) but I can't help but feel I can do better with my own DPS. I currently am in the bottom 3 on DPS during raids.
I appologize for the "help-me" post, but I have read through mounds of info on suv hunters, but obviously have misunderstood it from my DPS performance.
In reading through this thread (mostly the last 10-12 pages) and another Suv Hunter forum, I'm left in a state of confusion. I have attempted to follow all the advice listed but cannot seem to break 900 (780-850 usually) DPS in early MH/BT or deep SSC. I have been using a 1.4:1 shot rotation due to having passive haste from my chestpiece (Armory not linked due to the auto linkage in my profile). When I pop Rapid Fire I switch to a 3:2 BM Steady Shot rotation. Using a wind serpent pet as my buffed crit rate is ~34-36%. Lightning breath causes ~150 Damage per use.
I am completely lost as to talent choices. I have seen both the 28/33 and the 20/41 highly advocated. I have not seen the math behind these trees though. I have read the recent posts on shot rotation numbers, but must have missed the theory behind the talent choices.
I am in the process of regemming my gear. I plan to keep the 2 green gems in the chest and legs (meta reqs). All other gems will be +8 or +10 Agi. Other than that, I'm at a loss as to why my personal DPS is so low. I understand my purpose is to support the raid as a whole, (~900 Agi raid buffed, 750 unbuffed) but I can't help but feel I can do better with my own DPS. I currently am in the bottom 3 on DPS during raids.
I appologize for the "help-me" post, but I have read through mounds of info on suv hunters, but obviously have misunderstood it from my DPS performance.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by germanboy3383
Why is Daoc the BM hunter using AS and MS? And why does he use a Thundering Skyfire Diamond for his meta gem?
Also, just because there was a nerf to potions in the WotLK beta does not mean that you are 'exploiting' anything in TBC. If you follow through with that kind of logic then you should stop using a drum rotation also, since that was also given a 2 min party wide debuff. |
I don't know about his choice of meta, but I can only assume that the reason he uses Multi is because, well, it hits 3 targets. 3 targets being hit for additional damage > steady spam, esp. with a 0.5 cast vs. a 1.5 cast unhasted. And while Steady may be our most efficient shot, Arcane does put out more damage, no? perhaps he's using the same style of macro/manual cast?
As for the drum rotations- That's none of my doing, because if you took the time to check my professions on my Armory, you'd see I'm engineering/mining. I don't condone the abuse of drums, either, but I didn't even notice it, honestly. Same goes for it as with the abuse of pots though- The change in WotLK just seems like vindication for me. relying on consumables to chain-chug them has always been against my grain- using long duration consumables to buff up is a different matter. It makes me dependant on not only another person, but also upon something that was obviously not designed to take place as such. yes, Hawk gives me 155 more AP- which translates to 11.07 DPS- but if I can't maintain my damage rotation during the entirety of the fight, then I lose far more DPS than I've gained with hawk. I sacrifice a small amount of DPS for guarenteed damage for the entire fight.
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Originally Posted by QuiggyB
You were not using said macro. The original question you asked was about chaining steadies with a /cast !auto shot /cast steady shot macro veriant. Looking at that WWS you were using something that produced a 1.5:1 using steady, arcane and multi.
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Rivkah:
I know I could be doing better. But by not chugging mana pots and still remaining in the blue for mana, I see myself as not abusing the system some have built (chain-chugging pots) and instead remaining within the system created by blizzard and not having the mana problems of others. Sure it gives more mana at the low end of your mana pool than at the high end, but the mana recuperation given by it at low end effect the regen works out to be still about 50 MP/5. I just don't find the DPS buff of Hawk to be worth letting my mana drain out, because I have never, even with just steady/auto reverting to a 1:1 rotation, been able to recover enough mana to keep myself in the blue if I wait for half-way. Think of it as a preventative measure, instead of a reactive one.
Regarding my crit %, I'm still missing a lot of gear that I'd like to have, often using something off-type (like those stupid Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots) or very low-level gear ratio (Tunic of the Ranger Lord; it's a freaking heroic MgT piece for crying out loud! I want my Ranger-General's Chestplate already. ;_. Having achieved 34.xx% crit with the lack of certain pieces of gear I know that I could easily get over 35% once I can finally get those. >.< Re: the S3 helm though- I don't arena much, and when I do, I get stuck with a non-healer, or get stuck against full S4 geared people. So, my points buildup is very slow. Meh- I'll eventually get enough points. Again though, gear issue.
I do use mana oils and a potion of greater intellect, actually, since I can't ever find mageblood or Draenic Wisdom on the AH- they're always sold out, and the mats are equally hard to find on the AH. If I knew someone whom I could buy them off of regularily, I would.
Also, screw windserpents. :P Sorry, but I really don't like them, and while I will get a pet that benefits the raid, I'll get one that benefits the raid in a way that I can appreciate; I'm currently, for example, using a Owl with Screech, for a half-imp Demo Shout every Screech that stacks with Demo Shout, too. may not be as big a thing against casters, but it certainly helps versus the melee, and it's a cheaper focus cost, too.
If the fight lasts longer than about three minutes, I've hit about the 50% mark of my mana. since most fights end at about 4 minutes and something in, I'm just running dry as they end. The Efficiency cost cut in Arcane Shot and Multi Shot are really what Efficiency is for, for me. If i was just steady-chaining, I'd easily see no reason to have it.
Regarding the Naj fight difference: Ahhh, alright then. That would be, I believe, because some of the raid members don't see it as necessary to actually pluck spines from their hapless comrades. So i was doing a fair share of running around and trying to assist with that at range. I don't wait to fire Arcane, since they changed the speed at which autoshot fires after instant shots, and I do wait on multi.
As for assault to bracers; I know, I know. I'm just stubborn about that. ;P Just doesn't seem right to be getting just AP instead of Agi. I don't exactly have secondary gear to be putting on, though, for stamina fights- I have my one set of gear that i've been trying to upgrade, and I basically went from doing first few bosses of SSC (Hydross, Leo, Moro, Lurker) and A'lar and Loot Reaver in TK with what effectively qualified as beta raids (easier going) where I floated around the 5th-6th top DPS, straight to being in BT alpha (serious business) around 8th-9th. I'm still getting used to the change in environs, as well as in how the alpha raiders work.
NB: I'm pretty good, I think, at the whole "hunter"ing thing, it's the part on the raid specifics I'm still getting in tune with.
Last edited by Serf : 07/30/08 at 3:13 PM.
In my survival raid guide I've attempt to collect a good deal of the general wisdom I've seen in the various forums. It doesn't include all the detailed theorycraft, mostly I've just tried to answer the most common questions and include links to more detailed sources where possible. I need to go in and make some adjustments soon, been kinda busy lately.
Myke, do you have any WWS reports we can look at? It may help us determine what's going wrong. Looking at your armory I will say your gear is pretty low level for the content you're doing. There are several changes you can make that aren't very difficult. Doing 5-6 weeks worth of arenas (even if you lose, 10 games a week will only take you about an hour) will net you an S3 helm. The SSO neck is better than the saberclaw talisman. The S2 shoulders of course are better than the S1. You can probably upgrade your bracers soon from Rage, but if you don't get new ones soon, you can also consider getting the leather badge ones. Dual breeching comets or trollbane are better than legacy if you can get them. The badge gloves are better than the T5 (the ones with crit). Belt of deep shadow can be crafted and is better than girdle of the prowler. You should be using a crit/AP patch on your pants instead of the stam/agil ones. Your rings need serious work, get the badge ring and try to get another good ring if you can, maybe Garona's Signet Ring if you're still doing Kara. Also work on getting an hourglass.
In terms of spec choice, there seems to be a lot of argument about what's best, but what you have should be decent, although 2 points in imp mark isn't all that useful, see if you can get another hunter in the raid to take the full thing or try to squeeze it in up to 5 (maybe drop a point in RWS for 1 pt in thrill of the hunt to compensate for the lost efficiency if you need it).
Myke, do you have any WWS reports we can look at? It may help us determine what's going wrong. Looking at your armory I will say your gear is pretty low level for the content you're doing. There are several changes you can make that aren't very difficult. Doing 5-6 weeks worth of arenas (even if you lose, 10 games a week will only take you about an hour) will net you an S3 helm. The SSO neck is better than the saberclaw talisman. The S2 shoulders of course are better than the S1. You can probably upgrade your bracers soon from Rage, but if you don't get new ones soon, you can also consider getting the leather badge ones. Dual breeching comets or trollbane are better than legacy if you can get them. The badge gloves are better than the T5 (the ones with crit). Belt of deep shadow can be crafted and is better than girdle of the prowler. You should be using a crit/AP patch on your pants instead of the stam/agil ones. Your rings need serious work, get the badge ring and try to get another good ring if you can, maybe Garona's Signet Ring if you're still doing Kara. Also work on getting an hourglass.
In terms of spec choice, there seems to be a lot of argument about what's best, but what you have should be decent, although 2 points in imp mark isn't all that useful, see if you can get another hunter in the raid to take the full thing or try to squeeze it in up to 5 (maybe drop a point in RWS for 1 pt in thrill of the hunt to compensate for the lost efficiency if you need it).
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Originally Posted by FinishHer
Is there a hunter website (ie shadowpriest.com)?
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Also I would like to put in another plug for Rivkah's Survival Hunter Raid Basics page - it does an excellent job of summarizing the current "state of the art" for SV hunters.
Ok Serf, so basically we've established you aren't looking to improve your dps, you just are happy playing and satisfied with the results you're getting. That's fine, there's lots of players like that and if your guild doesn't care and you don't care, I'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise. Usually when people post in this thread they're looking for ways to improve and I tried to give you the best advice I could on that front, take it or leave it.
I wasn't telling you that you have to get a windserpent btw, owl is often useful for raid buff, although better if you don't have a warrior with imp demo, not sure if you do- I was just using that as an example of why saying you have enough crit and don't need a crit scope wasn't really correct, because survival hunters do typically run with more crit than you have and it still benefits them substantially.
I wasn't telling you that you have to get a windserpent btw, owl is often useful for raid buff, although better if you don't have a warrior with imp demo, not sure if you do- I was just using that as an example of why saying you have enough crit and don't need a crit scope wasn't really correct, because survival hunters do typically run with more crit than you have and it still benefits them substantially.
Having just gained my 4 piece t6 bonus, I'm looking for peoples opinions/experience on the switch from 0/20/41 to 7/20/34.
Now, heres the crux....I have not been blessed with a DST, nor can I guarentee a group of drummers (hunters do not get alot of love in my new guild, if I get a feral druid I consider myself lucky!)
There will be 2-3 drummers in my party (including myself).
50 Passive haste (Badge chest, Cloak of Fiends)
2.36 base speed
2.25 speed with drums
2.05 speed with Iaoth
1.95 speed with Iaoth & drums
1.89 speed with haste potion
1.69 speed with rapid fire
So, to stay as I am using 20/41 and a 1.15(/4) and moving to my cast macro only on rapid fires/heroism/haste pots, or to move with the times to 7/20/34 and accept that there will be times when I can't use the cast macro, and fall back onto multi/arcane shots?
Incidentally has anybody happened upon a addon(or thought of creating one) that will maybe make it more obvious which haste buffs you have on you at a given time, in order to tailor your rotation accordingly?
Input appreciated,
Flea
(apologies if you feel this would be more appropriate in the Hunter Help me thread, I have tried looking for SV help there in the past and it got completely overlooked)
Now, heres the crux....I have not been blessed with a DST, nor can I guarentee a group of drummers (hunters do not get alot of love in my new guild, if I get a feral druid I consider myself lucky!)
There will be 2-3 drummers in my party (including myself).
50 Passive haste (Badge chest, Cloak of Fiends)
2.36 base speed
2.25 speed with drums
2.05 speed with Iaoth
1.95 speed with Iaoth & drums
1.89 speed with haste potion
1.69 speed with rapid fire
So, to stay as I am using 20/41 and a 1.15(/4) and moving to my cast macro only on rapid fires/heroism/haste pots, or to move with the times to 7/20/34 and accept that there will be times when I can't use the cast macro, and fall back onto multi/arcane shots?
Incidentally has anybody happened upon a addon(or thought of creating one) that will maybe make it more obvious which haste buffs you have on you at a given time, in order to tailor your rotation accordingly?
Input appreciated,
Flea
(apologies if you feel this would be more appropriate in the Hunter Help me thread, I have tried looking for SV help there in the past and it got completely overlooked)
Sorry Rivkah- I AM looking to increase my DPS, but I won't abuse pot chugging to do so. I'm also, as you can see, highly argumentative. >.>;
Right now, I need to improve my gear a lot, I know that; Since I'm using in some cases still heroic gear (*cries over still having his Tunic of the Ranger Lord*) I know that if i can upgrade those pieces I'll be doing a lot better just on that alone- same if I get a lucky drop of Supremus next week and get Legionkiller (that's another reason i don't have a crit scope... those things are prohibitively hard to make if you don't have the mats already farmed, at least on my server- nodes are rare, even in high node concentration areas... I don't exactly have the mats or the time to farm up the mats for a critscope every time I upgrade my ranged weapon).
Regarding Windserpent vs. Owl: That was purely my opinion, re: Screw Windserpent. xD Sorry. I just really think they're ugly, and they never seem to survive more than 5 seconds into a fight, and with the current bug with them STILL not being fixed (they go to range to cast lightning breath) it just seems wrong to use them anyways. And, as far as I know and have experienced, Screech stacks with demo shout, even improved, or is that just a perception problem on my end?
As for typical SV hunters running with more crit than me- They normally go over 50% raid buffed then? o.O Because I'm talking purely unbuffed I have 34.24%, and that's, again, with the relatively low end gear that I have. Or are you saying most SV hunters in my gear have more?
Right now, I need to improve my gear a lot, I know that; Since I'm using in some cases still heroic gear (*cries over still having his Tunic of the Ranger Lord*) I know that if i can upgrade those pieces I'll be doing a lot better just on that alone- same if I get a lucky drop of Supremus next week and get Legionkiller (that's another reason i don't have a crit scope... those things are prohibitively hard to make if you don't have the mats already farmed, at least on my server- nodes are rare, even in high node concentration areas... I don't exactly have the mats or the time to farm up the mats for a critscope every time I upgrade my ranged weapon).
Regarding Windserpent vs. Owl: That was purely my opinion, re: Screw Windserpent. xD Sorry. I just really think they're ugly, and they never seem to survive more than 5 seconds into a fight, and with the current bug with them STILL not being fixed (they go to range to cast lightning breath) it just seems wrong to use them anyways. And, as far as I know and have experienced, Screech stacks with demo shout, even improved, or is that just a perception problem on my end?
As for typical SV hunters running with more crit than me- They normally go over 50% raid buffed then? o.O Because I'm talking purely unbuffed I have 34.24%, and that's, again, with the relatively low end gear that I have. Or are you saying most SV hunters in my gear have more?
|
Originally Posted by Serf
Sorry Rivkah- I AM looking to increase my DPS, but I won't abuse pot chugging to do so. I'm also, as you can see, highly argumentative. >.>;
Right now, I need to improve my gear a lot, I know that; Since I'm using in some cases still heroic gear (*cries over still having his Tunic of the Ranger Lord*) I know that if i can upgrade those pieces I'll be doing a lot better just on that alone- same if I get a lucky drop of Supremus next week and get Legionkiller (that's another reason i don't have a crit scope... those things are prohibitively hard to make if you don't have the mats already farmed, at least on my server- nodes are rare, even in high node concentration areas... I don't exactly have the mats or the time to farm up the mats for a critscope every time I upgrade my ranged weapon). Regarding Windserpent vs. Owl: That was purely my opinion, re: Screw Windserpent. xD Sorry. I just really think they're ugly, and they never seem to survive more than 5 seconds into a fight, and with the current bug with them STILL not being fixed (they go to range to cast lightning breath) it just seems wrong to use them anyways. And, as far as I know and have experienced, Screech stacks with demo shout, even improved, or is that just a perception problem on my end? As for typical SV hunters running with more crit than me- They normally go over 50% raid buffed then? o.O Because I'm talking purely unbuffed I have 34.24%, and that's, again, with the relatively low end gear that I have. Or are you saying most SV hunters in my gear have more? |
Not using potions is like not wearing pants. We all want to do it, but its socially unacceptable not to. The game and all the encounters in the game are designed around everyone using potions at every opportunity. Just like work office ethics assume appropriate coverage of genitals. To say using a potion every cooldown is "abuse" is laughable.
Using Viper instead of Hawk is just a by-product of your potion laziness, and also your paladin laziness as JoW should give you all the mana you need. Most hunters chain Haste potions on dps important fights, as JoW (ontop of manaspring/tide) are adequate to sustain a /cast/cast steady + KC rotation/macro. The only fight where I use Mana instead of Haste is Muru, as JoW cannot be put on the adds (I save a pot cooldown for P2 though, which is used to either Haste or Shadow).
An owl pet is handy. Personally I dont use one, but it's nice to have especially when working on fights such as Brutallus if tank healing is your weakness. Of course you want a dps pet ready in your stables for when you need it, regardless of how "ugly" it is (hint: you're an Orc hunter, you're already ugly).
And sub-par enchants/gem/gear/talent choices is something you'll hopefully realise in time.
PS/edit: If you came here looking for advice, then spout out some horribly illogical reasons for not taking on board that advice, expect to get some awkward replies.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Well, until I got into this alpha, JoW has never been something I've gotten, so honestly I'm not used to it. If it really provides enough help, I can easily lose some Efficiency, for example.
Another problem about using pots all the time- The prices on my server are heavily inflated, moreso than most I see, and fel mana pots are almost impossible to buy. The only reason i can afford my major agi pots at 100g a stack is because i can buy the erocone, thankfully, and have an alchemist make them for me.
As for haste... Netherbloom sells at 30g a single piece, if it sells at all, and the afformentioned Terocone (2 for the haste) is 50g a stack. Dailies every day don't keep up with the costs, not when i have to obtain the mats for other things, like my enchants for upgraded gear, gems, et cetera.
As for 'ugly' pets; There's ugly, an then there's ugly. :P Even the pets most call 'ugly' have an aesthetic. Windserpents just don't appeal to mine. besides, birds better suit my overal idea of being a buffer/debuffer with the Screech. besides, i don't find orcs to be all THAT ugly...
As for sub-par enchants, I already realize I chose the wrong enchant, for the 'best overall' effect in a raid setup. The 1.3 DPS increase of AP over Stats is a sacrifice I'm willing to take atm- I do more than just do the end-game raids, and as I said, i only have the one set of gear, so i can't just swap out for a stamina set, for example. I'll be starting to do that as I continue to get better gear than what I have now, using the pieces I have now to sub out for a stamina set.
Sub par gems, though? That's a point of contention I'm still trying to figure out. Of course I have to meet my meta requirements, but where exactly do those gems best fit? Where can i "dump" gems of the other two colors (rather, of the orange hit/agi or purple agi/stam) to benefit myself most? That's something I'm still working on. but if it's a red slot, it gets a rare/epic red 10 agi gem, no matter what.
As for awkward replies... Yeah, I know. I'm a weird guy. Sorry if I come across as stupid, in some cases; I have an odd view of things.
Edit: talents are really where I'm most in the dark. i know the obvious parts of it, of course, what to avoid, what to take for sure, but exact number of points for efficiency, (like 4/5 frenzy is just as good as 5/5) that sort of thing I know I'm weak on. I've always felt that being safe is better than being sorry in the end.
Another problem about using pots all the time- The prices on my server are heavily inflated, moreso than most I see, and fel mana pots are almost impossible to buy. The only reason i can afford my major agi pots at 100g a stack is because i can buy the erocone, thankfully, and have an alchemist make them for me.
As for haste... Netherbloom sells at 30g a single piece, if it sells at all, and the afformentioned Terocone (2 for the haste) is 50g a stack. Dailies every day don't keep up with the costs, not when i have to obtain the mats for other things, like my enchants for upgraded gear, gems, et cetera.
As for 'ugly' pets; There's ugly, an then there's ugly. :P Even the pets most call 'ugly' have an aesthetic. Windserpents just don't appeal to mine. besides, birds better suit my overal idea of being a buffer/debuffer with the Screech. besides, i don't find orcs to be all THAT ugly...
As for sub-par enchants, I already realize I chose the wrong enchant, for the 'best overall' effect in a raid setup. The 1.3 DPS increase of AP over Stats is a sacrifice I'm willing to take atm- I do more than just do the end-game raids, and as I said, i only have the one set of gear, so i can't just swap out for a stamina set, for example. I'll be starting to do that as I continue to get better gear than what I have now, using the pieces I have now to sub out for a stamina set.
Sub par gems, though? That's a point of contention I'm still trying to figure out. Of course I have to meet my meta requirements, but where exactly do those gems best fit? Where can i "dump" gems of the other two colors (rather, of the orange hit/agi or purple agi/stam) to benefit myself most? That's something I'm still working on. but if it's a red slot, it gets a rare/epic red 10 agi gem, no matter what.
As for awkward replies... Yeah, I know. I'm a weird guy. Sorry if I come across as stupid, in some cases; I have an odd view of things.
Edit: talents are really where I'm most in the dark. i know the obvious parts of it, of course, what to avoid, what to take for sure, but exact number of points for efficiency, (like 4/5 frenzy is just as good as 5/5) that sort of thing I know I'm weak on. I've always felt that being safe is better than being sorry in the end.
Last edited by Serf : 07/31/08 at 1:51 AM.
Sorry, I threw on the gem/enchant/talent/gear line as a "not really important, you'll realise what is best for your character in time" sort of statement. I didnt mean to say they are all bad now, or that you dont already know whats best in some cases. I didnt Armory you. Bad wording on my part.
I also dislike Windserpents. Theoretically they are superior dps, but Ravagers have always been far better in my eyes for a long list of reasons. The reliance of macro spam to incorporate Lightning Breath for Wind Serpent dps is the main drawback. If you ever need to go manual (which you do at some stage in almost every fight, end-sunwell especially so) then you loose their main dps advantage. Even under perfect scenarios (ie Brutallus, no Burn, full raid buffs, using LB macro, autocast off), my Ravager has consistently out dps'ed my Wind Serpent.
Potion costs arent that bad. I havent done a daily in months, and I never farm. I simply sell a few epic gems every now and then for 250g each. I use the badges from raiding to buy them. Haste pots are around 7-8g each on my server, 90g for a stack of Agi Elixirs, 40g per stack of Agi food, and I make a batch of mana injectors every few weeks, each pot is around 3g I believe. Ammo can be a real money killer too. Drums are cheap as chips. Agi scrolls are one of the more expensive things, but I usually ninja a fair few from repair bots, and only ever use them on Brutallus/KJ or when we were going for first kills.
Admittedly I do not pay for repairs, the guild bank does. However at 5-6g a death in repairs, the Agi Elixir and Agi Food cost twice as much as the death does, not to mention the potions and ammo used on that attempt. So I dont believe the repair bill is anywhere near as much as a contributor as regular consumables.
Anyway, talking about costs of raiding is pretty pointless. Back in Thaddius/Loatheb->KT times, or in pre-2.1 SSC/TK times it was infinitely worse than it is now. You would need to spend approximately 2 hours farming for every 1 hour or progression raiding. It was ridiculous. That ratio has gone from 2:1 to around 1:8 with the 2.1 patch changes. It's a change for the better I think, and the potion sickness is another nice change.
Yes, I agree with the potion change. It's amazing. Anything to cut raiding costs is great. I dont think it should apply to HP/elemental protection pots... but that's not the same issue as chain ironshield/haste/mana pots. However just because that is the new standard in potions in WOTLK, right now 1 every 2 minutes is the expected prot frequency. Fights and classes are designed based around the mp5 given from a pot every 2 minutes. Bosses like Brutallus, Void Sentinels, etc hit as hard as they do because its accepted the tanks will have Ironshields on 100% of the time. It would be ridiculous for them not to design that way, because that is the limitation they gave us.
I also dislike Windserpents. Theoretically they are superior dps, but Ravagers have always been far better in my eyes for a long list of reasons. The reliance of macro spam to incorporate Lightning Breath for Wind Serpent dps is the main drawback. If you ever need to go manual (which you do at some stage in almost every fight, end-sunwell especially so) then you loose their main dps advantage. Even under perfect scenarios (ie Brutallus, no Burn, full raid buffs, using LB macro, autocast off), my Ravager has consistently out dps'ed my Wind Serpent.
Potion costs arent that bad. I havent done a daily in months, and I never farm. I simply sell a few epic gems every now and then for 250g each. I use the badges from raiding to buy them. Haste pots are around 7-8g each on my server, 90g for a stack of Agi Elixirs, 40g per stack of Agi food, and I make a batch of mana injectors every few weeks, each pot is around 3g I believe. Ammo can be a real money killer too. Drums are cheap as chips. Agi scrolls are one of the more expensive things, but I usually ninja a fair few from repair bots, and only ever use them on Brutallus/KJ or when we were going for first kills.
Admittedly I do not pay for repairs, the guild bank does. However at 5-6g a death in repairs, the Agi Elixir and Agi Food cost twice as much as the death does, not to mention the potions and ammo used on that attempt. So I dont believe the repair bill is anywhere near as much as a contributor as regular consumables.
Anyway, talking about costs of raiding is pretty pointless. Back in Thaddius/Loatheb->KT times, or in pre-2.1 SSC/TK times it was infinitely worse than it is now. You would need to spend approximately 2 hours farming for every 1 hour or progression raiding. It was ridiculous. That ratio has gone from 2:1 to around 1:8 with the 2.1 patch changes. It's a change for the better I think, and the potion sickness is another nice change.
Yes, I agree with the potion change. It's amazing. Anything to cut raiding costs is great. I dont think it should apply to HP/elemental protection pots... but that's not the same issue as chain ironshield/haste/mana pots. However just because that is the new standard in potions in WOTLK, right now 1 every 2 minutes is the expected prot frequency. Fights and classes are designed based around the mp5 given from a pot every 2 minutes. Bosses like Brutallus, Void Sentinels, etc hit as hard as they do because its accepted the tanks will have Ironshields on 100% of the time. It would be ridiculous for them not to design that way, because that is the limitation they gave us.
Maybe it's just the eternal optimist in me looking at potting and trying futilely to make a build where I don't have to touch them except in the direst of needs.
I'm a Miner/Engineer, so I don't use drums, nor will I drop mining for LWing just to use drums. Not my thing, and my guild's fine with that- Repair bots need to come from soemwhere, and the mats need to coem from somewhere too. ;P
I have to pay my own costs for everything. Guild pays for nothing, though thankfully now that I'm raiding in the alpha I get my fair share of the epic gem drops out of the whole process.
Also, almost no one buys the gems on my server; people have evne tried selling them for 200g, and no sale, usually.
Also, i heavily envy you for having the injector recipes. It`s impossible to find that damn thing, at least for my luck. it does make the `cost`of having mana pots less painful, however. Would you be willing to derive a SV build that would suit my current gear for maximum benefit?
I'm a Miner/Engineer, so I don't use drums, nor will I drop mining for LWing just to use drums. Not my thing, and my guild's fine with that- Repair bots need to come from soemwhere, and the mats need to coem from somewhere too. ;P
I have to pay my own costs for everything. Guild pays for nothing, though thankfully now that I'm raiding in the alpha I get my fair share of the epic gem drops out of the whole process.
Also, almost no one buys the gems on my server; people have evne tried selling them for 200g, and no sale, usually.
Also, i heavily envy you for having the injector recipes. It`s impossible to find that damn thing, at least for my luck. it does make the `cost`of having mana pots less painful, however. Would you be willing to derive a SV build that would suit my current gear for maximum benefit?
Serf here's the thing about the pot chugging, in high end raiding, a lot of people have to do it, especially healers. If you aren't maximizing your dps because you don't believe in chugging pots, that extends the length of the fight, which leads to healers having to chug more potions. So from a raiding perspective, you avoiding pots is passing those costs on to someone else. That being said, I don't really believe that it's fair to expect a lot of pot chugging on what qualifies as farm content- I tend to play it cheap on the easy stuff myself. But you have to decide when you're working on new content, whether you want to be part of the problem or the solution for your raid. As a survival hunter you already seem to be taking the route of providing solutions to help the raid do better. Maximizing your dps within reasonable parameters is also part of that picture. As you push on to harder content (not sure how far along you guys are), these things are going to be more important.
As a survival hunter your best pet dps choices are ravager or windserpent, depending on your crit level and your raid makeup. If you raid with an elemental shaman there's no point in even worrying about the windserpent, because it's probably not a good fit for you (I disagree about the ugly tho, my Slinky is cute!). The ravager is probably best for general use in that case. The owl will do less dps than the ravager, but if your raid likes the debuff, the amount of dps it reduces you by isn't so much that it's a problem to use him (my owl was a big help on our first Kalecgos kill Sunday). The thing is there's a maximum amount of AP you can debuff on a boss, it's 340 AP. Now a regular demoralizing shout is a 300 AP debuff. Improved demoralizing shout is 420. Curse of recklessness adds 135 to the boss. So if your tanks don't have imp demoralizing shout, then when you have CoR up, your owl is debuffing 175 AP which is pretty darn useful. However if your tanks have imp demoralizing shout, with CoR up you are only debuffing 55 AP, which while nice, is far less exciting. If you don't run with CoR up at all, then it can end up not gaining you anything, but it looks like you guys use CoR so the owl is probably earning his keep. Now that being said, I noticed you don't have kill command in use on your WWS. You should include that in your macro.
Looking at your WWS again, on Najentus you gained 6k mana from JoW and another almost 3k from thrill of the hunt. You also had a mana tide totem (I'm jealous now) which gave you almost another 2k. So you gained back 13k mana that fight not even counting the aspect of the viper you say you were running the entire fight. That's a lot of mana back- were you actually having any mana problems on that fight? I don't have to pot at all on Najentus if I have judgement of wisdom alone and I have no points in efficiency and only 1 point in thrill of the hunt. It sounds like you just don't have a lot of experience yet with high end raiding so maybe as you get more used to the mana that's available you will be able to adjust your playstyle accordingly.
It sucks that your server economy is so terrible, and not having an herbalist definitely sucks. If I couldn't provide my own herbs it'd be a lot more frustrating. You don't know anyone who can make fel mana potions? I can't believe there's nobody in your guild with the recipe, it's farmable in like 15 minutes. You can always use regular mana pots too, they're cheaper, although obviously they don't provide quite as much benefit. Again I don't think you necessarily need to be chain potting on every fight, but I think you have room to adjust your spec some to be a little more damage oriented and take the risk of potting a little more often than you do now. On progression content though, you really should be willing to pot heavily, if your guild as a whole isn't willing it's going to make it a lot harder to learn and you'll just be paying for it in repair bills instead. I'm really glad they're putting potion sickness in the expansion if it means they're going to revamp things so that chain potting isn't required to produce good damage, but I'm reserving judgement till I see how it works out.
I think the big thing about your gem choices is actually that you are pretty seriously over the hit cap, and you're probably better off going with 2 crit/stam gems rather than the hit/agil and agil/stam gems. The net agility is the same since you are sacrificing 2 full agil sockets instead of 4 half sockets, but the crit will do you more good than the hit as long as you are above the cap. Easiest thing based on your current gear (and I realize it may not make sense to regem at the moment) would be to put 2 green gems in your pants, get the socket bonus there, and switch the rest of your gems to pure agil. Or if you were really stuck on getting the 2 agil bonus from your gloves, you could go with 3 gems, 1 purple, one green and one orange. Regardless in either case it would free you from having to have a mix gem in your PvP shoulders.
In terms of typical crit, in my gear I run at about 50-53% crit raid buffed in a proper stack group (GoA, feral, full consumables). My gear's better than yours but I still find crit to be beneficial (although it does tend to make early pull threat rather touch and go). I was just saying crit scope is still worthwhile. Mats cost is outrageous though so I understand if you realistically think you're getting a new wepaon soon you might not want to apply one to this one.
Anyhow I cover a lot of what you should know on my guide if you want to read it:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
Intermission, your not using potions is like not wearing pants thing was hilarious. I had to share that with my guild I'm also curious what your windserpent and ravager dps has been? Slinky pumps out pretty good dps for me.
As a survival hunter your best pet dps choices are ravager or windserpent, depending on your crit level and your raid makeup. If you raid with an elemental shaman there's no point in even worrying about the windserpent, because it's probably not a good fit for you (I disagree about the ugly tho, my Slinky is cute!). The ravager is probably best for general use in that case. The owl will do less dps than the ravager, but if your raid likes the debuff, the amount of dps it reduces you by isn't so much that it's a problem to use him (my owl was a big help on our first Kalecgos kill Sunday). The thing is there's a maximum amount of AP you can debuff on a boss, it's 340 AP. Now a regular demoralizing shout is a 300 AP debuff. Improved demoralizing shout is 420. Curse of recklessness adds 135 to the boss. So if your tanks don't have imp demoralizing shout, then when you have CoR up, your owl is debuffing 175 AP which is pretty darn useful. However if your tanks have imp demoralizing shout, with CoR up you are only debuffing 55 AP, which while nice, is far less exciting. If you don't run with CoR up at all, then it can end up not gaining you anything, but it looks like you guys use CoR so the owl is probably earning his keep. Now that being said, I noticed you don't have kill command in use on your WWS. You should include that in your macro.
Looking at your WWS again, on Najentus you gained 6k mana from JoW and another almost 3k from thrill of the hunt. You also had a mana tide totem (I'm jealous now) which gave you almost another 2k. So you gained back 13k mana that fight not even counting the aspect of the viper you say you were running the entire fight. That's a lot of mana back- were you actually having any mana problems on that fight? I don't have to pot at all on Najentus if I have judgement of wisdom alone and I have no points in efficiency and only 1 point in thrill of the hunt. It sounds like you just don't have a lot of experience yet with high end raiding so maybe as you get more used to the mana that's available you will be able to adjust your playstyle accordingly.
It sucks that your server economy is so terrible, and not having an herbalist definitely sucks. If I couldn't provide my own herbs it'd be a lot more frustrating. You don't know anyone who can make fel mana potions? I can't believe there's nobody in your guild with the recipe, it's farmable in like 15 minutes. You can always use regular mana pots too, they're cheaper, although obviously they don't provide quite as much benefit. Again I don't think you necessarily need to be chain potting on every fight, but I think you have room to adjust your spec some to be a little more damage oriented and take the risk of potting a little more often than you do now. On progression content though, you really should be willing to pot heavily, if your guild as a whole isn't willing it's going to make it a lot harder to learn and you'll just be paying for it in repair bills instead. I'm really glad they're putting potion sickness in the expansion if it means they're going to revamp things so that chain potting isn't required to produce good damage, but I'm reserving judgement till I see how it works out.
I think the big thing about your gem choices is actually that you are pretty seriously over the hit cap, and you're probably better off going with 2 crit/stam gems rather than the hit/agil and agil/stam gems. The net agility is the same since you are sacrificing 2 full agil sockets instead of 4 half sockets, but the crit will do you more good than the hit as long as you are above the cap. Easiest thing based on your current gear (and I realize it may not make sense to regem at the moment) would be to put 2 green gems in your pants, get the socket bonus there, and switch the rest of your gems to pure agil. Or if you were really stuck on getting the 2 agil bonus from your gloves, you could go with 3 gems, 1 purple, one green and one orange. Regardless in either case it would free you from having to have a mix gem in your PvP shoulders.
In terms of typical crit, in my gear I run at about 50-53% crit raid buffed in a proper stack group (GoA, feral, full consumables). My gear's better than yours but I still find crit to be beneficial (although it does tend to make early pull threat rather touch and go). I was just saying crit scope is still worthwhile. Mats cost is outrageous though so I understand if you realistically think you're getting a new wepaon soon you might not want to apply one to this one.
Anyhow I cover a lot of what you should know on my guide if you want to read it:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics
Intermission, your not using potions is like not wearing pants thing was hilarious. I had to share that with my guild I'm also curious what your windserpent and ravager dps has been? Slinky pumps out pretty good dps for me.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
The best spec before you get 4pc t6 and a fair amount of passive haste, would be something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
0/20/41 (edit I threw points into parry/imp clip/entrap or whatever rather than Monster Slaying. Obviously this changes due to your content. If you still fight giants/beasts/dragons, go monster, if you do Felmyst you dont want any points in entraptment, etc.)
You wouldnt want to do the 7/20/34 at your gear level.
The 0/20/41 playstyle revolves around a manual 1.1:5. You are never going to get anywhere near as good dps out of that spec with anything other than a manual rotation. So if you flinch at that thought, you should either get 4pc t6 and passive haste/drums very soon, or think about joining your BM buddies. It is also a very mana intensive spec. It has 2/3 TotH, which is 1 more than the 7/20/34 spec, but it makes heavy use of multishot and arcane shot, mana whores.
You could use a 2:1 /cast/cast macro with that spec, but you would want to gather quite a bit of passive haste to reduce steady chaining. Also keep in mind one of the the largest causes of steady chaining is incoming damage causing steady pushback, which can result in the next two autos being skipped unless you notice the damage taken and let go of the macro immediately, and let the steady/auto go through before starting again. This is a nice time to throw in a multishot too or to refresh HM.
One of the most important things to keep in mind with any spec is to be able to adjust your shot rotation mid fight depending on your mana situation. This changes from spec somewhat. Currently I use a scaling 2:1/3:2/1:2 "/cast/cast" macro. DST and impAOTH takes me to BM type levels of haste. It's quite mana efficient. However when it looks like I may not make the full distance, simply dropping KC (using a different macro) can help me sustain the dps at the best damage per mana possible. When you go to a 0/20/41 spec, you may want to begin with the 1.1:5 rotation but adjust to a 1:1 rotation when Rapid Fire or Bloodlust is active, using those periods as a means to recoup some mana. As a final option, swapping to Viper and doing a 1:1 rotation may be useful if you are at 20%ish mana with quite a lot of boss HP left, and no immediate mana gains (pot/tide/jow) imminent.
Whytefist, (sorry, not sure on spelling) has done some amazing research on pre-t6 builds and their appropriate shot rotations. It might be worth doing a search for all posts done by him in the Survival thread.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
0/20/41 (edit I threw points into parry/imp clip/entrap or whatever rather than Monster Slaying. Obviously this changes due to your content. If you still fight giants/beasts/dragons, go monster, if you do Felmyst you dont want any points in entraptment, etc.)
You wouldnt want to do the 7/20/34 at your gear level.
The 0/20/41 playstyle revolves around a manual 1.1:5. You are never going to get anywhere near as good dps out of that spec with anything other than a manual rotation. So if you flinch at that thought, you should either get 4pc t6 and passive haste/drums very soon, or think about joining your BM buddies. It is also a very mana intensive spec. It has 2/3 TotH, which is 1 more than the 7/20/34 spec, but it makes heavy use of multishot and arcane shot, mana whores.
You could use a 2:1 /cast/cast macro with that spec, but you would want to gather quite a bit of passive haste to reduce steady chaining. Also keep in mind one of the the largest causes of steady chaining is incoming damage causing steady pushback, which can result in the next two autos being skipped unless you notice the damage taken and let go of the macro immediately, and let the steady/auto go through before starting again. This is a nice time to throw in a multishot too or to refresh HM.
One of the most important things to keep in mind with any spec is to be able to adjust your shot rotation mid fight depending on your mana situation. This changes from spec somewhat. Currently I use a scaling 2:1/3:2/1:2 "/cast/cast" macro. DST and impAOTH takes me to BM type levels of haste. It's quite mana efficient. However when it looks like I may not make the full distance, simply dropping KC (using a different macro) can help me sustain the dps at the best damage per mana possible. When you go to a 0/20/41 spec, you may want to begin with the 1.1:5 rotation but adjust to a 1:1 rotation when Rapid Fire or Bloodlust is active, using those periods as a means to recoup some mana. As a final option, swapping to Viper and doing a 1:1 rotation may be useful if you are at 20%ish mana with quite a lot of boss HP left, and no immediate mana gains (pot/tide/jow) imminent.
Whytefist, (sorry, not sure on spelling) has done some amazing research on pre-t6 builds and their appropriate shot rotations. It might be worth doing a search for all posts done by him in the Survival thread.
Last edited by Intermission : 07/31/08 at 3:13 AM.
A manual 1/1.5? That's a steady/auto with hand-weaved arcane/multis, right? That's how I've done it ever since I got my hands on steady shot. ^^; I actually LOATHE the simplistic Steady/auto spam of BM, and personally think that Serpent's Swiftness and TBW are rather overpowered and need to be toned down from what they are.
I'll throw points into monster slaying and shift entrapment to parry, because that 1% with Deterrence up can still save you- I actually managed to tank Azgalor for a full 13 seconds before I got smushed with a crushing blow finally after Deterrence ended, so i like the idea of increasing my avoidance there. besides, if a mob gets immobilized at the wrong time beside a player, it will immediately turn and beat on them, instead of following it's aggro table, so I don't want to risk that.
I'm looking to start gathering passive haste without losing too much agility, but aside from the Cloak of Fiends am not really sure where to start on that.
And that shot rotation is exactly why I've always used 5/5 efficiency and 3/3 TotH with Viper 100%, because my mana DOES go to pot unless I do it, faster than even pot cycles can keep it up.
I'll throw points into monster slaying and shift entrapment to parry, because that 1% with Deterrence up can still save you- I actually managed to tank Azgalor for a full 13 seconds before I got smushed with a crushing blow finally after Deterrence ended, so i like the idea of increasing my avoidance there. besides, if a mob gets immobilized at the wrong time beside a player, it will immediately turn and beat on them, instead of following it's aggro table, so I don't want to risk that.
I'm looking to start gathering passive haste without losing too much agility, but aside from the Cloak of Fiends am not really sure where to start on that.
And that shot rotation is exactly why I've always used 5/5 efficiency and 3/3 TotH with Viper 100%, because my mana DOES go to pot unless I do it, faster than even pot cycles can keep it up.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Sorry to be the guy that just jumps in and asks for help. I've read quite a bit of information and I've been told many things that are conflicting, but most of the information I've gotten here so far has been beneficial.
I've been survival for about a month now... currently I'm specced 0/20/41 but my dps is not where I personally want it to be. My biggest question right now is concerning shot rotation, I'm currently using a 1:1 macro, which I know isn't the best, but I'm not sure what is. I'm also not exactly sure as to what things like 1.5:1 are... I'd appreciate any help that I could get.
Here's a recent WWS, shows me at some of my better times and at some of my very worst recently WWS Loading...
I've been survival for about a month now... currently I'm specced 0/20/41 but my dps is not where I personally want it to be. My biggest question right now is concerning shot rotation, I'm currently using a 1:1 macro, which I know isn't the best, but I'm not sure what is. I'm also not exactly sure as to what things like 1.5:1 are... I'd appreciate any help that I could get.
Here's a recent WWS, shows me at some of my better times and at some of my very worst recently WWS Loading...
Last edited by Veeloxx : 07/31/08 at 3:36 AM.
edit: this also applies to Veeloxx I guess, who just replied before I did.
1.1:5 is the old rotation every marks (and some BM's) used back in the day before macros, and many SV hunters use now.
It's just:
steady <special> auto steady <small gap> auto steady <special> auto steady <small gap> auto
aka
steady multi auto steady auto steady arcane auto steady auto
Doing this manually will see noticeable improvements from a castsequence. The <special> slots are multi and arcane, or if need be things like Scorpid Sting or Hunters Mark. The abilities can also be put in the small gaps in the rotation, but it slightly pushes back the next autoshot. Usually worth the pushback though, until your haste makes it not an option. Further passive haste still can lead to slight differences in the shot cycle... but they come naturally when you get a feel for it.
Performing this by hand with a clear understanding of your autoshot timer, steady shot casts and GCD will give you a much better feel for the class, and you can adapt and change your rotation far easier than using a steady-auto castsequence macro and just throwing multishots in there, which many hunters do and wonder why they are 300 dps behind similarly geared hunters.
1.1:5 is the old rotation every marks (and some BM's) used back in the day before macros, and many SV hunters use now.
It's just:
steady <special> auto steady <small gap> auto steady <special> auto steady <small gap> auto
aka
steady multi auto steady auto steady arcane auto steady auto
Doing this manually will see noticeable improvements from a castsequence. The <special> slots are multi and arcane, or if need be things like Scorpid Sting or Hunters Mark. The abilities can also be put in the small gaps in the rotation, but it slightly pushes back the next autoshot. Usually worth the pushback though, until your haste makes it not an option. Further passive haste still can lead to slight differences in the shot cycle... but they come naturally when you get a feel for it.
Performing this by hand with a clear understanding of your autoshot timer, steady shot casts and GCD will give you a much better feel for the class, and you can adapt and change your rotation far easier than using a steady-auto castsequence macro and just throwing multishots in there, which many hunters do and wonder why they are 300 dps behind similarly geared hunters.
Well, personally I'd say you used Volley too many times, if it weren't for the fact that I've seen the Hyjal trash pulls and some of them are so tightly packed the DPS of Volley is better than trying to fire off any shots into that mess... Maybe also try throwing a explosive trap into the mix?
You have an AP/crit gem in your gear, are you sure you should be using that instead of an agi/hit gem? that would put you 1 hit over the hit cap with Surefooted 3/3, and give you a bit more agility.
it's also quite possible that your grouping setup isn't exactly the best... Are you getting a feral druid and a shaman with the agi totem down for you?
Also, this is just my opinion, but the assassin's alchemist stone doesn't seem to be very good- berserker's call has an awesome on use ability and has that 90 AP on equip benefit, so seems to, IMO, pull ahead.
Also, you're not that far behind the BM hunter in your raid...
Edit to Intermission: So you mean, just use Steady, no macro, and hand-time it?
You have an AP/crit gem in your gear, are you sure you should be using that instead of an agi/hit gem? that would put you 1 hit over the hit cap with Surefooted 3/3, and give you a bit more agility.
it's also quite possible that your grouping setup isn't exactly the best... Are you getting a feral druid and a shaman with the agi totem down for you?
Also, this is just my opinion, but the assassin's alchemist stone doesn't seem to be very good- berserker's call has an awesome on use ability and has that 90 AP on equip benefit, so seems to, IMO, pull ahead.
Also, you're not that far behind the BM hunter in your raid...
Edit to Intermission: So you mean, just use Steady, no macro, and hand-time it?
I wasn't really talking about trash pulls, I'm speaking more of just the boss fights. And that isn't our best BM hunter either, our top hunter was out of town and not able to make the raid that night
Edit: group makeup for all but the Archi fight was... me, feral druid, bm hunter, resto shaman, and resto druid.
so I still got heroism, but no GoA totem
Edit: group makeup for all but the Archi fight was... me, feral druid, bm hunter, resto shaman, and resto druid.
so I still got heroism, but no GoA totem
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
I have been encountering a bug with misdirect for the past 4 months or so. It only happens to me (as opposed to the other guild hunters), so I suspect that it may be related to a survival talent (thus why I am asking in this thread). I was wondering if anyone else here has encountered this bug and/or knows what causes it.
The bug occurs on Mother Shahraz and Felmyst. I have never observed it on another boss. I misdirect the tank, and go to pull the boss, and my misdirect charges start to vanish one by one. They vanish at seemingly random times (ie, sometimes I can pull without any charges disappearing, sometimes 2 vanish in rapid succession). Obviously the tank is not clicking it off, because all 3 charges would disappear at the same time. I do not use any abilities to cause the charges to vanish. I have had to have the BM hunters pull on these bosses to prevent hilarious pull mishaps.
Anyone seen this?
EDIT: I do not have viper up when I pull.
The bug occurs on Mother Shahraz and Felmyst. I have never observed it on another boss. I misdirect the tank, and go to pull the boss, and my misdirect charges start to vanish one by one. They vanish at seemingly random times (ie, sometimes I can pull without any charges disappearing, sometimes 2 vanish in rapid succession). Obviously the tank is not clicking it off, because all 3 charges would disappear at the same time. I do not use any abilities to cause the charges to vanish. I have had to have the BM hunters pull on these bosses to prevent hilarious pull mishaps.
Anyone seen this?
EDIT: I do not have viper up when I pull.
Last edited by acote : 07/31/08 at 5:28 AM.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Edit to Intermission: So you mean, just use Steady, no macro, and hand-time it?
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The worst thing you could be doing is using the /castsequence or /cast/cast steady auto and then manually hitting multi and arcane the moment they come off cooldown.
When you perform the 1:1.5 you will notice it just feels and looks (get an autoshot timer mod) right. It gets out the most amount of shots in the least amount of time, making use of every GCD (aside the small gaps where you wait for the autoshot to fire). You will not necessarily use multi/arcane the second they come off cooldown, but you will often be close.
Anyway I get frustrated/bored when talking about 2 year old hunter mechanics. Sorry mate, but I'm off. Good luck with your hunting. I only made my first post because I wanted to talk about going to work with no pants!
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Originally Posted by acote
IThe bug occurs on Mother Shahraz and Felmyst. I have never observed it on another boss. I misdirect the tank, and go to pull the boss, and my misdirect charges start to vanish one by one. They vanish at seemingly random times (ie, sometimes I can pull without any charges disappearing, sometimes 2 vanish in rapid succession). Obviously the tank is not clicking it off, because all 3 charges would disappear at the same time. I do not use any abilities to cause the charges to vanish. I have had to have the BM hunters pull on these bosses to prevent hilarious pull mishaps.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Heh, I never used the macro at first, but then i started to use it because I'd either take too long, or start casting again too fast, so that i'd end up clipping the autoshot. I've never been able to find a cast timer that actually works for me, either; either the thing just doesn't seem to want to work, or it doesn't work properly, saying a shot is ready before it is, or isn't ready when it is, that sort of thing. >.<
As for it looking and feeling just about right; Currently with my castsequence macro and hand weaving it does feel pretty smooth, to me.
@ Rivkah: If i was part of progression content, I would chug pots or whatever I need to do to not be a liability to the raid. Currently however I've just proceeded through territory where I'm basically just another DPS/utility add in the group. I've currently respecced to remove efficiency and a point of TotH to get down to Readiness, and I hope that things end up working well with this setup, though i'm not entirely sure having rapid Fire on a 3 minute CD instead of a 4 minute which breaks it from the BF/trinket CD rotation is a good thing.
As for Kill Command, yes, it's a bit of damage off the GCD, but at 75 mana, it's almost the cost of a Steady Shot, and worth at least 20x less. 220-ish damage is what a test sample of 50 KCs gave, with only a single being a crit, doing about 500 damage. The mana cost of KC isn't worth the damage it does when i can spend the short time waiting on the GCD to cast a shot that uses a little more mana and does far more damage on average.
As for being well over the hit cap- yeah, I know. no luck on the cloak of fiends so far, and then there's also the hit from the Arcanite Steam-Pistol that I hope to be dropping when I upgrade to Legionkiller. Those two upgrades would bring me to exactly 96 hit, just over the cap, where I'm aiming for.
Edit: Thank you for the info regarding my owl's screech vs. Ravager. I already knew Ravager with Gore was the top DPS (until WotLK) bt I was never aware of any AP debuff cap. How was that found out?
As for it looking and feeling just about right; Currently with my castsequence macro and hand weaving it does feel pretty smooth, to me.
@ Rivkah: If i was part of progression content, I would chug pots or whatever I need to do to not be a liability to the raid. Currently however I've just proceeded through territory where I'm basically just another DPS/utility add in the group. I've currently respecced to remove efficiency and a point of TotH to get down to Readiness, and I hope that things end up working well with this setup, though i'm not entirely sure having rapid Fire on a 3 minute CD instead of a 4 minute which breaks it from the BF/trinket CD rotation is a good thing.
As for Kill Command, yes, it's a bit of damage off the GCD, but at 75 mana, it's almost the cost of a Steady Shot, and worth at least 20x less. 220-ish damage is what a test sample of 50 KCs gave, with only a single being a crit, doing about 500 damage. The mana cost of KC isn't worth the damage it does when i can spend the short time waiting on the GCD to cast a shot that uses a little more mana and does far more damage on average.
As for being well over the hit cap- yeah, I know. no luck on the cloak of fiends so far, and then there's also the hit from the Arcanite Steam-Pistol that I hope to be dropping when I upgrade to Legionkiller. Those two upgrades would bring me to exactly 96 hit, just over the cap, where I'm aiming for.
Edit: Thank you for the info regarding my owl's screech vs. Ravager. I already knew Ravager with Gore was the top DPS (until WotLK) bt I was never aware of any AP debuff cap. How was that found out?
Last edited by Serf : 07/31/08 at 5:17 AM.
I just couldn't help it ... Serf, really, so far you've been given excellent advices on how to improve your DPS, to which you related contra-arguments that would make any serious raiding guild to think twice before taking you on-board.
Excellence comes at a hefty price, and for a SV hunter that's more than true, since we have to tune our gear & playstyle to the maximum in order to achieve top-results. If you're not prepared to go the extra mile and do absolutely everything to improve your DPS then you'll remain in the "average" class of players.
To give you an example: what we're you doing with using AotV when you have shaman & retri pala in raid is just unimaginable. I raided for so many times with no mana support except Fel Mana potions and I was using [Dark Rune] just to earn the extra few hundreds of mana that were allowing to finish a fight with AotH up all the time and benefit from the extra AP (and I had the classic 0/20/41 build). Now I have a shaman and a retri pala in raid and chain-chugging Fel Mana has been replaced by chain-chugging Haste potions, which are even more expensive. I'm not even using mana oils anymore and I use [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] which is still working for us (thank God for this bug!).
And this kind of effort is done by every other serious raiding SV hunter who wants to achieve top results ... so in that respect, comments like "mana cost of KC isn't worth the damage" are really misplaced. I don't want to sound harsh since we are all here to learn but you need to be more open-minded.
My advice would be to give it a shot during one of the raids and apply all the advices with no mana usage consideration in mind (assuming shaman + retri pala), so you will get a feel of using everything possible. It might make you reconsider your playstyle.
Excellence comes at a hefty price, and for a SV hunter that's more than true, since we have to tune our gear & playstyle to the maximum in order to achieve top-results. If you're not prepared to go the extra mile and do absolutely everything to improve your DPS then you'll remain in the "average" class of players.
To give you an example: what we're you doing with using AotV when you have shaman & retri pala in raid is just unimaginable. I raided for so many times with no mana support except Fel Mana potions and I was using [Dark Rune] just to earn the extra few hundreds of mana that were allowing to finish a fight with AotH up all the time and benefit from the extra AP (and I had the classic 0/20/41 build). Now I have a shaman and a retri pala in raid and chain-chugging Fel Mana has been replaced by chain-chugging Haste potions, which are even more expensive. I'm not even using mana oils anymore and I use [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] which is still working for us (thank God for this bug!).
And this kind of effort is done by every other serious raiding SV hunter who wants to achieve top results ... so in that respect, comments like "mana cost of KC isn't worth the damage" are really misplaced. I don't want to sound harsh since we are all here to learn but you need to be more open-minded.
My advice would be to give it a shot during one of the raids and apply all the advices with no mana usage consideration in mind (assuming shaman + retri pala), so you will get a feel of using everything possible. It might make you reconsider your playstyle.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Edit: Thank you for the info regarding my owl's screech vs. Ravager. I already knew Ravager with Gore was the top DPS (until WotLK) bt I was never aware of any AP debuff cap. How was that found out?
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Just because I say something doesn't feel worth it to me doesn't mean that I won't try it out. I may be stubborn about my feelings regarding something, BUT I'm not close-minded enough to never change! As has been pointed out earlier, I am very new to the whole endgame raiding scene, basically going from easy-going beta, where people can even just not show and it can be excused, to the much more hardcore alpha. I've already changed a few things that were more a problem of personal preference (I'm looking to switch out my owl for a ravager right now, picking up Gore 9 and then a Nethermine Ravager, and bracer-stats is already replaced).
I never once thought about doing scholo runs for those dark runes, though- they had entirely passed out of mind. I'm going to have to farm some of those up, because I find myself never using HS due to it being either I am at 100%, or am insta-dead, or there's no point to using it because it's a wipe anyways. xD It's too bad that they changed the adamantite sharpening stones last patch though to no longer affect ranged weapon damage.
And as I've said before, I'm very argumentative. I always take the devil's advocate position in any situation, which as some of you might have found, can be frustrating, and I apologize. It's the part of me that wants to see the responses to such things, to see if I can squeak out an iota more understanding of the thought processes behind the reasoning, until I'm satisfied with the answer, which Intermission and Rivkah have been more than helpful in bantering back and forth with me about. Knowing "X is best" doesn't help me as much as why it's best, in what ways, and exactly the details of it. I'm weird that way.
Edit: Well Vee, that depeds, honestly; i still have problems, for example, even when manually casting it, of the WS moving to range and then casting LB. Also they as a whole just don't sem to survive as well, and a dead pet gives no DPS.
I never once thought about doing scholo runs for those dark runes, though- they had entirely passed out of mind. I'm going to have to farm some of those up, because I find myself never using HS due to it being either I am at 100%, or am insta-dead, or there's no point to using it because it's a wipe anyways. xD It's too bad that they changed the adamantite sharpening stones last patch though to no longer affect ranged weapon damage.
And as I've said before, I'm very argumentative. I always take the devil's advocate position in any situation, which as some of you might have found, can be frustrating, and I apologize. It's the part of me that wants to see the responses to such things, to see if I can squeak out an iota more understanding of the thought processes behind the reasoning, until I'm satisfied with the answer, which Intermission and Rivkah have been more than helpful in bantering back and forth with me about. Knowing "X is best" doesn't help me as much as why it's best, in what ways, and exactly the details of it. I'm weird that way.
Edit: Well Vee, that depeds, honestly; i still have problems, for example, even when manually casting it, of the WS moving to range and then casting LB. Also they as a whole just don't sem to survive as well, and a dead pet gives no DPS.
Serf, I don't remember the exact thread I got the attack power debuff data from but it was in one of the EJ forum threads. I think it was actually a warlock thread discussing CoR. I had heard about there being a cap before that but when I worked on my guide I spent a lot of time looking through various sources for more detailed information and I found a post that explained it in detail. Owls can still be valuable in a variety of circumstances, but it's good to know what exactly you're getting out of it. The primary reason I used mine on Kalecgos is that we had 3 tanks, pali, warrior (with no imp DS) and druid and the one dps warrior, and the availability of DS and thunderclap was pretty inconsistent between the portals to both realms, so every little bit of debuff counted (plus that fight is really not a dps race, the key was keeping up with the healing).
Personally I found that I gained dps when I switched to castsequence (this is before I had the gear to support the heavy steady rotation), probably because it was easier for me to focus on keeping the arcanes and multis manually weaved consistently when I wasn't having to worry about timing my steadies as well, plus on any fight with a lot of movement or stuff to keep track of, it cut down on my distractions. Everyone has different results though, for some folks manually timing is superior. It's good to try both methods and see what's best for you. I highly recommend against macroing in arcanes and multis though, leaving those to manual control gives you a lot more flexibility.
In terms of kill command, I understand your reasoning, and to be honest I used to apply the same reasoning myself. I didn't use kill command for a long time because mana was tight and I didn't see the sense in including it when kill command did so little damage. But when I switched to my heavy steady rotation I started using it and I found it didn't really make that noticable a mana problem for me. Looking at my Rage kill last night, kill command was 4% of my damage. So it's basically 4% damage I was giving up. I would suggest gradually trying to work in the higher dps options into your playstyle and get a feel for what you can fit without creating too large a strain manawise. It may be that on some fights you can use it effectively and on others you can't spare the mana, or it may depend on your raid makeup, but you should do what you can to figure it out.
It sounds like you are in the progression team now, did I read you wrong? How far along are you guys? Good luck with the new spec, let us know how it works out.
The thing about the shorter rapid fire is there are a lot of times where than extra minute can make a difference in whether you use 2 or 1 rapid fire in a fight. Najentus for instance is about a 4-5 minute fight. Usually you can't safely use rapid fire right away due to threat concerns, I typically time my first rapid fire right after the first bubble, at which point I've safely feigned twice and have a good threat space to work with. Ideally I can just squeeze in a second rapid fire at the end of the fight. Although recently we've been killing Naj faster so I've been trying to find a way to use it a bit earlier, but threat is always my nemesis I'm familiar with the timing problem though, I have it with drums + rapid fire, even though I have no activated trinkets. With readiness though I expect it'd be especially nice since you can probably do rapid fire earlier and use readiness to get a spare FD, spare MD and spare rapid fire with a lot less threat concern, and still probably get in that 3 min cooldown before the fight ends.
I wasn't saying btw that you should go out of your way to drop the hit gear, trust me it'll come on its own in T6 content, just saying that gives you flexibility with your gemming.
Oh, and in the case of dark runes you could also farm the demonic runes from the demons in Felwood if you prefer that to Scholo, I'm not sure how the drop rate compares, I tend to prefer going to Felwood.
The windserpent bug btw can be worked around by turning off autocast and including lightning breath in a macro. It's a lil annoying but Slinky manages just fine On the positive side, there are a few fights where the ranged attacks on a pet are nice, I put Slinky on stay in phase 2 Illidan and he just happily casts lightning bolts from a safe spot the entire phase.
Personally I found that I gained dps when I switched to castsequence (this is before I had the gear to support the heavy steady rotation), probably because it was easier for me to focus on keeping the arcanes and multis manually weaved consistently when I wasn't having to worry about timing my steadies as well, plus on any fight with a lot of movement or stuff to keep track of, it cut down on my distractions. Everyone has different results though, for some folks manually timing is superior. It's good to try both methods and see what's best for you. I highly recommend against macroing in arcanes and multis though, leaving those to manual control gives you a lot more flexibility.
In terms of kill command, I understand your reasoning, and to be honest I used to apply the same reasoning myself. I didn't use kill command for a long time because mana was tight and I didn't see the sense in including it when kill command did so little damage. But when I switched to my heavy steady rotation I started using it and I found it didn't really make that noticable a mana problem for me. Looking at my Rage kill last night, kill command was 4% of my damage. So it's basically 4% damage I was giving up. I would suggest gradually trying to work in the higher dps options into your playstyle and get a feel for what you can fit without creating too large a strain manawise. It may be that on some fights you can use it effectively and on others you can't spare the mana, or it may depend on your raid makeup, but you should do what you can to figure it out.
It sounds like you are in the progression team now, did I read you wrong? How far along are you guys? Good luck with the new spec, let us know how it works out.
The thing about the shorter rapid fire is there are a lot of times where than extra minute can make a difference in whether you use 2 or 1 rapid fire in a fight. Najentus for instance is about a 4-5 minute fight. Usually you can't safely use rapid fire right away due to threat concerns, I typically time my first rapid fire right after the first bubble, at which point I've safely feigned twice and have a good threat space to work with. Ideally I can just squeeze in a second rapid fire at the end of the fight. Although recently we've been killing Naj faster so I've been trying to find a way to use it a bit earlier, but threat is always my nemesis I'm familiar with the timing problem though, I have it with drums + rapid fire, even though I have no activated trinkets. With readiness though I expect it'd be especially nice since you can probably do rapid fire earlier and use readiness to get a spare FD, spare MD and spare rapid fire with a lot less threat concern, and still probably get in that 3 min cooldown before the fight ends.
I wasn't saying btw that you should go out of your way to drop the hit gear, trust me it'll come on its own in T6 content, just saying that gives you flexibility with your gemming.
Oh, and in the case of dark runes you could also farm the demonic runes from the demons in Felwood if you prefer that to Scholo, I'm not sure how the drop rate compares, I tend to prefer going to Felwood.
The windserpent bug btw can be worked around by turning off autocast and including lightning breath in a macro. It's a lil annoying but Slinky manages just fine On the positive side, there are a few fights where the ranged attacks on a pet are nice, I put Slinky on stay in phase 2 Illidan and he just happily casts lightning bolts from a safe spot the entire phase.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Veeloxx
Ravager isn't necessarily top dps either. If you have 2 points in Go for the Throat and your crit is around 35% unbuffed (or more), then the wind serpent with lightning breath can actually give better dps because there isn't a CD on lightning breath like there is for Gore.
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Originally Posted by Veeloxx
Edit: group makeup for all but the Archi fight was... me, feral druid, bm hunter, resto shaman, and resto druid.
so I still got heroism, but no GoA totem |
Last edited by Gearknight : 07/31/08 at 3:53 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Of course depending on certain fights I might bring my owl instead of a ravager, but currently we're at 5/5 hyjal and 5/however many is left in BT. I guess you could call it progression, but right as of now I think we're just stuck at crafting all the shadow resist crap for Shahraz. Otherwise, it's just farm content for them, new stuff for me.
I have never nor will ever use arcane shot or multi-shot in a macro. It's only autoshot and steady i have ever used, and that's exactly why I used a castsequence- though i switched steady and auto in comparison to the usual castsequence, because the usual way sometimes steady would still end up (how?) clipping auto. I'm going to try going back to a steady manual and timing it, see if I can get a better effectiveness out of it. That's mainly why I used a castsequence though.
Would the DPS of Kill Command beat out the additional damage of being in Aspect of the Hawk? because I did notice that I can get a lot of mana back, and if it would, then I can remain in viper, get my additional mana, and still do more damage via KC. Not as effective as KC and hawk, but better than currently.
I guess I'm lucky, but with the three hunters (me, Daorc, Runamuk) I can toss in my MD after theirs and the tank's already around like 10K+ aggro, I can lay into them no problem without worrying. Now with Readiness a second FD and MD after that will be very nice to blow. I`ll report my findings about changes here; one thing I`ve noticed is that either my luck with it is good, or MT activates at a higher than 6% chance currently- I can go a whole fight MT`d up, with it constantly refreshing.
And I know you weren`t criticizing me for having a lot of hit gear- Still have tons of upgrades to go through that are lacking in hit currently. No biggie. ^^ But as for the Dark Runes, far easier to get off the bosses in Scholo, for me, because I can bring along some lowbie guildies and get them loot at the same time, with the added bonus they aren't soulbound, and have a pretty high drop rate- not only off the bosses, but the one off the necros and dark summoners is not half bad either. I'll try out the Felwood guys though... Might be faster solo-farming those than trying to go through Scholo.
As for the windserpent bug- that's what I'm saying, though. I've used it in manual cast, used it in a cast macro, no autocast; Still wants to run away. Dunno why.
Update: Okay... Wow. yeah. I need to get rid of some of this hit rating! xD I'm now at 162 hit rating thanks to ALL THREE hunters in the raid PASSING on the halberd of Desolation so I could get it! @_@ SO I'm going to be dropping Surefooted for now to buff my traps, until I can start dropping some of this hit I have.
I have never nor will ever use arcane shot or multi-shot in a macro. It's only autoshot and steady i have ever used, and that's exactly why I used a castsequence- though i switched steady and auto in comparison to the usual castsequence, because the usual way sometimes steady would still end up (how?) clipping auto. I'm going to try going back to a steady manual and timing it, see if I can get a better effectiveness out of it. That's mainly why I used a castsequence though.
Would the DPS of Kill Command beat out the additional damage of being in Aspect of the Hawk? because I did notice that I can get a lot of mana back, and if it would, then I can remain in viper, get my additional mana, and still do more damage via KC. Not as effective as KC and hawk, but better than currently.
I guess I'm lucky, but with the three hunters (me, Daorc, Runamuk) I can toss in my MD after theirs and the tank's already around like 10K+ aggro, I can lay into them no problem without worrying. Now with Readiness a second FD and MD after that will be very nice to blow. I`ll report my findings about changes here; one thing I`ve noticed is that either my luck with it is good, or MT activates at a higher than 6% chance currently- I can go a whole fight MT`d up, with it constantly refreshing.
And I know you weren`t criticizing me for having a lot of hit gear- Still have tons of upgrades to go through that are lacking in hit currently. No biggie. ^^ But as for the Dark Runes, far easier to get off the bosses in Scholo, for me, because I can bring along some lowbie guildies and get them loot at the same time, with the added bonus they aren't soulbound, and have a pretty high drop rate- not only off the bosses, but the one off the necros and dark summoners is not half bad either. I'll try out the Felwood guys though... Might be faster solo-farming those than trying to go through Scholo.
As for the windserpent bug- that's what I'm saying, though. I've used it in manual cast, used it in a cast macro, no autocast; Still wants to run away. Dunno why.
Update: Okay... Wow. yeah. I need to get rid of some of this hit rating! xD I'm now at 162 hit rating thanks to ALL THREE hunters in the raid PASSING on the halberd of Desolation so I could get it! @_@ SO I'm going to be dropping Surefooted for now to buff my traps, until I can start dropping some of this hit I have.
Last edited by Serf : 08/01/08 at 2:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Well, personally I'd say you used Volley too many times, if it weren't for the fact that I've seen the Hyjal trash pulls and some of them are so tightly packed the DPS of Volley is better than trying to fire off any shots into that mess... Maybe also try throwing a explosive trap into the mix?
You have an AP/crit gem in your gear, are you sure you should be using that instead of an agi/hit gem? that would put you 1 hit over the hit cap with Surefooted 3/3, and give you a bit more agility. it's also quite possible that your grouping setup isn't exactly the best... Are you getting a feral druid and a shaman with the agi totem down for you? Also, this is just my opinion, but the assassin's alchemist stone doesn't seem to be very good- berserker's call has an awesome on use ability and has that 90 AP on equip benefit, so seems to, IMO, pull ahead. Also, you're not that far behind the BM hunter in your raid... Edit to Intermission: So you mean, just use Steady, no macro, and hand-time it? |
Don't be afraid of mana pots, and if you have enough pally's in the raid maybe push for a Blessing of Wisdom.
Group makeup is also very important. The best party DPS (I have found so far) is a Feral Druid, a Shammy Dropping Agi, and the other 2 spots are usually DPS Warrior and BM hunter or maybe a rogue so they get added benefit. Oh and 2 of us with Drums
Having a Retardin (retribution paladin) in the raid is also a boost to DPS. They have something similar to EW - a raidwide debuff on the target that gives +3% extra Crit chance on the Target - cannot remember the talents name now.
After some testing the last few raids - with a little haste 25-50 Manito's and manually weaving in Arcanes and Multis (unless hasted enough for a 1:1) works best for me. So, anyone with similar gear/talent spec may wish to try that to see if it works for them.
There's two retadin buffs- imp Sanctity Aura for extra damage, and the imp seal of crusader I believe it is.
I know my shots just fine- It's just when you get into exact specifics of macros that I get edgy.
I know my shots just fine- It's just when you get into exact specifics of macros that I get edgy.
So I've been raiding as survival for a few days now and I feel like it's starting to "click" a little bit, but I'm sure there's still room for improvement, so any feedback would be appreciated. The only thing I would do differently for sure is chug more haste potions in Sunwell, but that was our first Felmyst kill after 2 days of many attempts and I ran out. I currently have 0 mana problems with 3/3 thrill and a ret pally, should I move those points to RWS? Or maybe try 20/41 instead?
Felmyst
Gorefiend
Felmyst
Gorefiend
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Originally Posted by Dralmoo
So I've been raiding as survival for a few days now and I feel like it's starting to "click" a little bit, but I'm sure there's still room for improvement, so any feedback would be appreciated. The only thing I would do differently for sure is chug more haste potions in Sunwell, but that was our first Felmyst kill after 2 days of many attempts and I ran out. I currently have 0 mana problems with 3/3 thrill and a ret pally, should I move those points to RWS? Or maybe try 20/41 instead?
Felmyst Gorefiend |
I was raiding with a barrage spec just as you are now but once I switched to Readiness I got roughly an extra 100 dps.
It just takes a little while to get used to the order in which you do things to take full advantage of it.
I do a MD, quick shots, then FD, a bit more pew, Readiness then repeat rotation going followed by drums and if i'm lucky a Bloodlust.
Give it a try and see how you get on.
I recently started binding my 2:1 steady shot macro w/ KC to my mouse-wheel up rather than clicking it. Whenever my haste is increased I simply use Quartz to determine when to stop wheeling or when to throw in an arcane shot. In my first gorefiend kill, literally about 30 minutes after rebinding my key, I put out nearly 2550 dps. This is with 2 BM hunters in my group as well as a resto shaman and feral druid. The shaman was subbed out and we got 2 bloodlusts, however one of the BM hunters was DC'd about half the fight. Drum rotation was used through the whole fight and Judgment of Wisdom was up as well.
Anyways, just a friendly recommendation to all fellow survival hunters to give it a try.
Gorefiend WWS
NOTE: Feel free to armory me for my gear but for the fight listed above note that I used the Ashtounge Talisman in place of the Madness of the Betrayer since I ended up getting the Madness later that night. Used pet: Ravager.
Anyways, just a friendly recommendation to all fellow survival hunters to give it a try.
Gorefiend WWS
NOTE: Feel free to armory me for my gear but for the fight listed above note that I used the Ashtounge Talisman in place of the Madness of the Betrayer since I ended up getting the Madness later that night. Used pet: Ravager.
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Originally Posted by raphgar
I recently started binding my 2:1 steady shot macro w/ KC to my mouse-wheel up rather than clicking it. Whenever my haste is increased I simply use Quartz to determine when to stop wheeling or when to throw in an arcane shot. In my first gorefiend kill, literally about 30 minutes after rebinding my key, I put out nearly 2550 dps. This is with 2 BM hunters in my group as well as a resto shaman and feral druid. The shaman was subbed out and we got 2 bloodlusts, however one of the BM hunters was DC'd about half the fight. Drum rotation was used through the whole fight and Judgment of Wisdom was up as well.
Anyways, just a friendly recommendation to all fellow survival hunters to give it a try. Gorefiend WWS NOTE: Feel free to armory me for my gear but for the fight listed above note that I used the Ashtounge Talisman in place of the Madness of the Betrayer since I ended up getting the Madness later that night. Used pet: Ravager. |
May I ask, why are you equipping madness right now? I doubt it beats ashtongue when the hit rating is entirely wasted.
Nice work man. can you link the macro you used?
I bind the Manito's macro to the number 1 and spam the hell out of that clicking Arcane or Multi Manually.
I was under the impression though that you can only spam so fast and then it make no difference. Maybe you proved that wrong - or maybe you just had some sexy haste.
Anyway nice job.
EDIT: And lol at the pet name. I have a Cat named Vag but that is another story...
I bind the Manito's macro to the number 1 and spam the hell out of that clicking Arcane or Multi Manually.
I was under the impression though that you can only spam so fast and then it make no difference. Maybe you proved that wrong - or maybe you just had some sexy haste.
Anyway nice job.
EDIT: And lol at the pet name. I have a Cat named Vag but that is another story...
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Kutak
May I ask, why are you equipping madness right now? I doubt it beats ashtongue when the hit rating is entirely wasted.
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Here's the macro I used:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Last edited by raphgar : 08/01/08 at 7:01 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by muffpox
Survival raiding is essentially the buffing spec of the hunter class. Here we have the perfect candidate to pickup 5/5 Improved Hunter’s Mark. Yet, the buffage spoken of is Expose Weakness. A specialized role within a raid that given the right circumstances puts the Survival hunter in a position to trade personal DPS for agility so that melee and hunters can benefit as much as possible from the Survivalist’s critical hits.
I assume 3/3 EW is mandatory. The argument that nears, promoting a hybrid 0-27/28-34/33, stems from the view Readiness is a “6pt talent.” I cannot credit properly the source but I’m pretty sure it has come up on these forums that Master Tactician within a 25 person raid is relatively useless, given the high buffed crit % of most raiders and the inconsistency that is inherent with crit-streams. If increasing DPS is the issue, respeccing Beast Mastery would likely do just that, +hit isn’t hard to cap with or without Surefootedness. I believe that for the one Survival hunter in a raid to run with any less agility than could be had is a raid-DPS loss that is not compensated by the personal increases of the Survival hunter’s speccing or gearing under their potential agility. It is true that a threshold exists where the lack of physical damage-doing raiders might call for more personal DPS as EW would not hold its own as a beneficial buff anymore; but, at that point you might as well spec BM and try to keep Ferocious Inspiration up for those Locks and Mages or if you’re lucky an Elemental Shammy and not any healers in your group. Arguing against the standard 0-20-41, I believe the stat increases from Combat Experience outweigh having readiness available. The hybrid-EW spec 0-27/28-34/33 has a floating point, you could also try 1-27-33, but I like it as 1/3 Thrill of the Hunt. Ranged Weapon Specialization is another option, but there are many. All this being said, am I off my rocker here? I do think this only applies to a 25 person raid unless a 10man is physical damage heavy. Is the consensus at ease with more than one Survival hunter in a raid being overkill and gimped-by-spec DPS? I do not have spreadsheets for my claim that a raid benefits most from the Survival hunter taking Combat Experience over Readiness (or any other talents that increases the hunter’s personal DPS) as EW’s gains create more raid-wide DPS, given the proper makeup. If the benefits of EW are not sufficient, BM is more beneficial to a raid. The benefits of 2% more agility versus a 5min cool-down and proccing 10% inc crit when you already have a pile.... I hope my lack of data can be forgiven and a more technical response could be given in support or against my claim. |
At lower instance levels where the hunter has lower crit percent and the raid DPS benefit from EW is a large percent of the raid's DPS, 3/3 EW over 2/3 EW can make a huge difference in the raid's overall DPS.
However, nearing end game when the both the hunter's crit percent is higher and all the DPS in the raid put out much larger DPS numbers, the benefit of 3/3 EW versus 2/3 EW is not as large.
Here is a table of "ideal" (no breaks in rotation) EW uptime using a 1:1.4 rotation with crit percent for both 3/3 and 2/3 EW:
Crit %.....2/3......3/3......Diff
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25........72.06...86.93...14.87
30........78.99...91.71...12.72
35........84.39...95.25...10.86
40........88.57...97.31....8.74
45........91.73...98.54....6.81
50........94.12...99.26....5.14
55........95.88...99.65....3.77
60........97.17...99.85....2.68
Two trends to be taken from this table:
1) The benefit of EW from crit is asymtotic. Hence, as crit gets higher and you are approaching 100% EW uptime, the changes in EW uptime get smaller with changes in crit.
2) Due to the asymtotic effect of EW uptime with crit, as crit rate becomes higher, the difference in EW uptime from 2/3 and 3/3 EW becomes smaller.
Let's now compare an early raiding instance hunter with an endgame hunter for illustrative purposes (the exact numbers are not important here but the trends).
Assuming that the early hunter has about 900 agility fully raid buffed and 30% crit and that the average DPS of raid members in 700 DPS with 14 DPSers, then:
- average EW AP from 3/3 is 206.35 providing about 414 DPS to the raid
- the raid does 9.8K DPS on its own, hence, EW boosts the raid DPS by 4.2%
- average EW AP from 2/3 is 177.73 providing about 355 DPS to the raid for a 3.6% boost
- here the difference between 2/3 and 3/3 EW is only about 60 raid DPS or about 0.6% of the raid's DPS
- the 0.6% percent between 2/3 and 3/3 may not seem much, but it is even greater when not able to perform under ideal conditions with rotation being interrupted by moving, damage, etc
Assuming that the near endgame hunter has about 1200 agility fully raid buffed and 50% crit and that the average DPS of raid members in 1500 DPS with 14 DPSers, then:
- average EW AP from 3/3 is 297.78 providing about 596 DPS to the raid
- the raid does 21K DPS on its own, hence, EW boosts the raid DPS by 2.9%
- average EW AP from 2/3 is 282.36 providing about 565 DPS to the raid for a 2.7% boost
- here the difference between 2/3 and 3/3 EW is only about 30 raid DPS or about 0.2% of the raid's DPS
- the affect of the unideal rotations are less on the EW for the near endgame hunter who has much higher crit percent than for the early hunter
So for the early hunter, the difference between 2/3 EW and 3/3 EW tends to be more absolute raid DPS and percentage of raid DPS than it is for a near end game hunter. Furthermore, it is difficult for an early hunter at his relative low DPS to find a place for the one talent point going from 3/3 EW to 2/3 EW to make up for the loss in raid DPS (60 in this example); however, it is much more easier with a near end game hunter to utilize the point from 3/3 EW to 2/3 EW to increase his personal DPS enough to make up for the loss in raid DPS. Futhermore, near endgame, the difference in raid DPS from 3/3 to 2/3 EW is relatively small compared to the overall raid DPS that the loss is meaningless to raid and allows the hunter to spend the point on something more personally useful.
I was a huge advocate of 3/3 EW until a couple months ago when I realized that I had gotten to such a high crit % that difference between 2/3 and 3/3 EW was so small that it was no longer providing significant benefit to the raid while at the same time that high crit percent with a 3rd point in TotH would greatly help my mana situation, since I rarely received any mana support in raids. Getting that 3rd point in TotH greatly increased my max DPS uptime and decreased my reliance on mana pots and Aspect of the Viper (even with using two mana oils and major mageblood elixirs) with allowing the use of more haste pots and that with how high my DPS was that the improved max DPS uptime provided a better benefit to the raid (and my moral) than the extra EW in most situations.
Now, I have no good rule for when to switch from 3/3 to 2/3 EW since it depends on a case by case basis with the spec, gear, and rotation of the hunter and the current capability and needs of the raid and the typical buffs the hunter receives during the raids.
Second, as I have postulated many times in posts in this thread, I am an advocate of not only Readiness but also MT. Now the benefits of MT changes depending on your rotation and weapon speed, but the more shots per second you perform, the greater your MT uptime and average crit percent from it is. Personally, assuming execution of my ideal rotation, MT provides 3.7% crit on average for my character. This is even higher when factoring in the increased SPS and MT uptime from haste effects. Previous posts provide more data, but that much crit not only directly increases my DPS but also increases my DPS from greater EW uptime (improves raid DPS as well), from my pet DPS from more focus from GftT, and from increased max DPS uptime from more mana from TotH. Analyses I have performed have shown that for many situations, a 0/20/41 build can outperform any other build plus provide the utility of Readiness. Now, I am not saying that there are not situations in which other specs can be better. Plenty of those situations exist; however, I am saying that 0/20/41 is a viable spec in a lot of situations and because of the value of MT.
Third, as has been also stated in this thread on numerous occasions, although stacking agility to maximize EW AP is generally the wise decision to increase overall raid DPS, it is not always so. There are plenty of instances where choosing the item with less agility can increase overall raid DPS, so stacking agility should not be done blindly. For instance, a while back I replaced my [Bracers of the Pathfinder] with [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes], although I lost 14 agility in that exchange. The reason I did this is that the haste allowed me with the badge crossbow to do a 1:1.4 rotation unhasted for max DPS instead of the 1:1.5. Switching the 2 items, I get 15 more DPS but -3.69 EW AP for a net of about +8 DPS unhasted. This difference is even greater under haste effects. And the benefits of the lesser agility item can occur even when it doesn't have haste.
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Originally Posted by Namarus
I was thinking about this information, and do you have an OOM time for these different rotations. It's all well and good to keep these rotations going like the 1:1.4 and 1:1.5 however, I have found them to use excessive amounts of mana. This results in having to use (fel) mana pots rather than haste pots. Furthermore, do you include drum rotations, heroism usage.
Pretty much all the top survival dps WWS reports that I have seen have hunters using 2:1/3:2/1:1 changing rotations depending on their current haste. |
For SV hunters that do not have that ideal situation, particularly the lack haste effects provided by others or a DST, then their 1:1 up time tends to be lower making other rotations more viable when not using the 1:1. In my analyses, I have tried to make it clear under what conditions I performed them and under what conditions I felt my recommendations performed better and under what conditions I felt optional recommendations may perform better.
In the case that your referenced, my recommendation was designed specifically for the person I was replying to and their gear and talents. My recommendation was not meant to be taken out of context or as gospel for the general situations, and I have always tried to make that clear.
And the analyses I did a while back (which hold for the assumptions I listed) was performed over haste ranges from 0 to 1000 with indicating what rotation was best at what haste rating. My recommendations in some cases provided different answers depending on how often you were under haste effects since that can bias the recommendation one way or another.
My analyses had to assume that you had sufficient mana to perform your rotations. It is almost impossible to account for everybody's vastly varying mana situations. However, from analyses I have performed, it is quite clear to me the huge DPS lost unhasted between the 1:1.4 and the 2:1 or 3:2. Even having to resort to AoV with 1:1.4 to keep DPS uptime it outperforms the 2:1 or 3:2 by a large amount. Also using a mana pot and a 1:1.4 rotation performed better DPS average out over a 2 min period than the unhasted 2:1/3:2 rotation with 12s of haste potion. The only times I see the 2:1 or 3:2 doing better is if you are having severe mana problems where you have significantly reduced max DPS uptime or when you are operating under the majority of the conditions I listed above that has provided the best SV hunter DPS where you are rarely operating in unhasted conditions.
The other major factor where I can see the 2:1/3:2/1:1 doing better that the 1:1.5/4/1:1 rotation, as I have stated previously, is where people are having a hard time correctly implementing the 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations and switching to the 1:1 rotation under appropriate haste effects. The 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 rotations are difficult to implement exactly (I am definitely not perfect at it although I think I do it rather well) and mistakes can cost you a lot of DPS. Plus, if you do not switch to the 1:1 at the right times, you will lose additional DPS from the ideal. On ther other hand, the 2:1/3:2/2:1 rotation is much easier and almost error proof to implement over the whole range of haste. Thus, folks tend to get near ideal results from it more often. However, when folks state that they see in game that the 2:1/3:2 is providing better results for them than the 1:1.5/4, that does not mean that their new rotation is better than the 1:1.5/4 only that it is better then how they were implementing it and not necessarily that they are currently doing the maximum DPS that they could be doing.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
I've read the recent analysis posted by Whitefyst and it's very interesting but I have to say that basing an entire analysis of shot rotations on Cheekys may not make it completely accurate. Cheekys can only model things so well and I have a hard time believing that all the conventional wisdom currently being followed in the survival community is wrong because analysis of spreadsheet data says so. It may be one of those real world application versus on paper sort of problems or it may just be that people just aren't as good at reproducing perfect rotations so the heavy steady style leads to people doing better in practice, but based on my own experience and what I've seen people doing in general, I have to take it all with a grain of salt. The fact that nobody seems to be able to consistently agree on what the perfect spec and rotation is for survival (even for a specific gear set) indicates to me that the differences aren't as big as folks make them out to be in the first place and that the variations have more to do with playstyle.
I'm really looking forward to this expansion so we can stop arguing about perfect shot rotations and get back to arguing about basic specs |
I also pointed out that I have observed many of the trends I see in my results in game, and my DPS has improved from utilizing the results of my analyses.
The other point to make sure to understand is the context of results. People should not take the results of my analyses out of context and try to apply them to general situations, that just doesn't work or hold true. Just like it doesn't work to look at what the SV hunters that have been getting the max DPS do and expect what they are doing to be best for you when your situation may be very different from theirs. The key is to observe what is working best for different players in different situations and determine which situation most matches the typical conditions for your player in your raids or the conditions that you could possibly obtain and to model your approach for the observations that work best in those situations.
A lot of people have adopted the approach that has provided the best SV DPS numbers without analyzing whether that approach is indeed best for their situation. For those whose situations more closely mimic those that have gotten the higher DPS, then adopting that approach has generally been beneficial for them. For those who have adopted that approach whose situations are not similar to that ideal situation, they can be actually hurting their performance over what they could be doing.
And as I said in my reply to Namarus, the 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is definitely easy to implememt near ideally with great macros that make it even easier while the 1:1.5/4 rotations are much more difficult to implement ideally with no ideal macros. Thus, the 1:1.5/4 are much more suscpetible to providing less than ideal results due to unideal implementation.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 08/01/08 at 9:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Update: Okay... Wow. yeah. I need to get rid of some of this hit rating! xD I'm now at 162 hit rating thanks to ALL THREE hunters in the raid PASSING on the halberd of Desolation so I could get it! @_@ SO I'm going to be dropping Surefooted for now to buff my traps, until I can start dropping some of this hit I have.
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Yeah, I may just. But first I'm going to do some hit loss maths first, to see exactly how much I can safely lose to upgrade some very important pieces. Why trade out the gem when I'm just going to need to get it replaced to the original one after?
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Serf:
1). You are 20 points over hit cap.
2). Replace all your gems except 2 with +10 Agility.
3). In those 2 remaining gem slots (I recommend using your legs for this), to fulfill your metagem requirements, put either:
-Dazzling Seaspray Emerald
-Sundered Chrysoprase
4). Replace your +10 Scope with +28 Crit Scope.
-Then you will be only 6 points above the Hit cap, as opposed to an enormous 20.
-Since you value your mana so much (as proved by your refusal to drink mana pots despite your obviously low mana pool and
gimp your dps by using viper instead of hawk) the 4mp5 from the 2 green gems should appeal to you.
-Also since you value giving a maximum Agi boost to your raid at the expense of everything else (as you said in an earlier post)
if you regem with the 2 greens in your legs, and all else red, you will get a net bonus of 6Agi.
=So you will lose a worthless 12 hit and 12 stam in exchange for 6 (white) agi, 4mp5, and a varying amount of Int and/or Crit.
How does that sound?
1). You are 20 points over hit cap.
2). Replace all your gems except 2 with +10 Agility.
3). In those 2 remaining gem slots (I recommend using your legs for this), to fulfill your metagem requirements, put either:
-Dazzling Seaspray Emerald
-Sundered Chrysoprase
4). Replace your +10 Scope with +28 Crit Scope.
-Then you will be only 6 points above the Hit cap, as opposed to an enormous 20.
-Since you value your mana so much (as proved by your refusal to drink mana pots despite your obviously low mana pool and
gimp your dps by using viper instead of hawk) the 4mp5 from the 2 green gems should appeal to you.
-Also since you value giving a maximum Agi boost to your raid at the expense of everything else (as you said in an earlier post)
if you regem with the 2 greens in your legs, and all else red, you will get a net bonus of 6Agi.
=So you will lose a worthless 12 hit and 12 stam in exchange for 6 (white) agi, 4mp5, and a varying amount of Int and/or Crit.
How does that sound?
Last edited by Brassnukles : 08/02/08 at 7:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Yeah, I may just. But first I'm going to do some hit loss maths first, to see exactly how much I can safely lose to upgrade some very important pieces. Why trade out the gem when I'm just going to need to get it replaced to the original one after?
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Also, the reason to swap the gems now and then to swap them again later (even if back to the original ones) is so that you can be the best you can be at all times.
But if you think that using mana pots is worse than using Aspect of the Viper, and if you think that stacking agility > all, even though numerous people have tryed explaining the benefits of using mana pots so that you can use Aspect of the Hawk, and explained that stacking agi is only good if the agi item = more raid DPS than a different item would give personally a good example of this is Necklace of the deep with 2 x 10 agi gems in Vs worgan claw necklace, and you don't want to change gems because it seems pointless to you if you have to change them again at a later date, then i would come to the conclusion that in fact you do not want to be the best you can be, and are happy just being as you are.
Now, if the reason you don't want to swap gems is because you can not afford to, then say that, because as it is you seem to not want to take the advice of some very experienced players, players who achieve the very impressive results they do, by pushing there character to the best it can be. If all hunters took your approach to there game, there would not be the DPS from hunters that there is.
Strive to be the best you can be...or never kill Brutallus.
Actually the T6 bracers do not have hit on them, and they are the only piece he's likely to see anytime soon if his guild is really only at 5/9 BT. I had to do quite a bit of hit futzing throughout BT to maintain my cap and I suspect he'll need to do the same.
Looking at what he's wearing now, I expect he'll replace his helm soon with T6 or S3- if he gets the S3 it has some hit, the T6 does not. He'll most likely replace his shoulders soon either with the Akama shoulders or T6, neither has hit. The chest will eventually be replaced with the chest from Bloodboil or T6, neither has hit. The bracers he should probably wear till he gets T6 bracers in Sunwell, so he'll be going from hit bracers to no hit bracers. The gloves will likely be replaced soon with T6, no hit on either of those again. The belt will probably not be replaced by anything with hit unless he decides to switch to the boneweave girdle. If he gets the bow stitched legs those will replace pants he currently has hit on with pants that don't. He'll probably pick up the quickstrider moccasins so his boots will maintain their level of hit (unless he goes for the shadowmaster's boots which don't have hit). He currently has hit on the ring of lethality, if he gets the ZA ring that'll reduce his hit but that's an easy thing to swap in and out for extra hit. At some point he may get a madness of the betrayer which would get him more hit, but who knows when it'll drop and if he'll get one. At some point he's going to get a new ranged weapon, good chance of the new one not having any hit, unless he just goes for the badge one. The cloak should really be replaced with the badge agil cloak for now (or possibly the haste one from ZA). So short term his hit situation will be declining or staying steady, but he's definitely way over right now.
Replacing the cloak and ring would cut down on the bulk of his hit overkill (and eventually the ranged weapon). I understand if he doesn't want to regem the helm right now if he's working on S3, in a few weeks it'll be replaced and the damage differential on it will be minimal for the cost. The gloves may be the same way, do you have any realistic expectation as to how long before you see the T6 gloves? The shoulders I'd say it depends on if he's in a line to get the ones from Akama or if they're likely to be his the next time they drop- they're not killing Shaz yet although it sounds like they'll be there pretty soon. I would consider regemming the pants though, drop rate on bow stitched is pretty crappy, who knows if you'll ever get them.
Looking at what he's wearing now, I expect he'll replace his helm soon with T6 or S3- if he gets the S3 it has some hit, the T6 does not. He'll most likely replace his shoulders soon either with the Akama shoulders or T6, neither has hit. The chest will eventually be replaced with the chest from Bloodboil or T6, neither has hit. The bracers he should probably wear till he gets T6 bracers in Sunwell, so he'll be going from hit bracers to no hit bracers. The gloves will likely be replaced soon with T6, no hit on either of those again. The belt will probably not be replaced by anything with hit unless he decides to switch to the boneweave girdle. If he gets the bow stitched legs those will replace pants he currently has hit on with pants that don't. He'll probably pick up the quickstrider moccasins so his boots will maintain their level of hit (unless he goes for the shadowmaster's boots which don't have hit). He currently has hit on the ring of lethality, if he gets the ZA ring that'll reduce his hit but that's an easy thing to swap in and out for extra hit. At some point he may get a madness of the betrayer which would get him more hit, but who knows when it'll drop and if he'll get one. At some point he's going to get a new ranged weapon, good chance of the new one not having any hit, unless he just goes for the badge one. The cloak should really be replaced with the badge agil cloak for now (or possibly the haste one from ZA). So short term his hit situation will be declining or staying steady, but he's definitely way over right now.
Replacing the cloak and ring would cut down on the bulk of his hit overkill (and eventually the ranged weapon). I understand if he doesn't want to regem the helm right now if he's working on S3, in a few weeks it'll be replaced and the damage differential on it will be minimal for the cost. The gloves may be the same way, do you have any realistic expectation as to how long before you see the T6 gloves? The shoulders I'd say it depends on if he's in a line to get the ones from Akama or if they're likely to be his the next time they drop- they're not killing Shaz yet although it sounds like they'll be there pretty soon. I would consider regemming the pants though, drop rate on bow stitched is pretty crappy, who knows if you'll ever get them.
OK, lets see what he has on that has hit.
17 hit on cloak - 30 from deso - 19 from the gun - 12 from bracers - 22 from boots - 15 from legs - 19 from ring.
His helm - neck - shoulders - chest - gloves - belt - 1 ring and both trinkets do not have hit now and so will either be no loss in hit when replaced or a gain depending on the item.
I don't think i need to say that 162 hit is way over the top. He can drop all +hit gems and replace them with 10 AGI as long as he keeps the meta requirements.
The point here is that as he goes along he will lose some hit from replacing an item and get some back from others, the bracers are a perfect example. By the time he can get T6 bracers and so lose the hit from the ones he has, he will be killing the boss that drops the legs with 20 hit.
At the moment he can afford to drop 67 hit from gear or gems, that is an incredible amount of hit in wasted item points that could be better spent now, and if later hit becomes a problem, well, that will be because he has upgraded to better gear and can then choose what he want to do as far as keep an item with +hit and use all agi gems or drop the item for better and use a hit gem or 2. That will be up to him at the time.
Also when did cost come into theroycrafting? I understand that gems can be hard to get or expensive for some people, but that has nothing to do with what is best.
If you can get your hit from gear, then gem all agi +minimal meta requirements. If you are lacking some hit after all gear is added, then use some 5 agi 5 hit or whatever gems you need to.
17 hit on cloak - 30 from deso - 19 from the gun - 12 from bracers - 22 from boots - 15 from legs - 19 from ring.
His helm - neck - shoulders - chest - gloves - belt - 1 ring and both trinkets do not have hit now and so will either be no loss in hit when replaced or a gain depending on the item.
I don't think i need to say that 162 hit is way over the top. He can drop all +hit gems and replace them with 10 AGI as long as he keeps the meta requirements.
The point here is that as he goes along he will lose some hit from replacing an item and get some back from others, the bracers are a perfect example. By the time he can get T6 bracers and so lose the hit from the ones he has, he will be killing the boss that drops the legs with 20 hit.
At the moment he can afford to drop 67 hit from gear or gems, that is an incredible amount of hit in wasted item points that could be better spent now, and if later hit becomes a problem, well, that will be because he has upgraded to better gear and can then choose what he want to do as far as keep an item with +hit and use all agi gems or drop the item for better and use a hit gem or 2. That will be up to him at the time.
Also when did cost come into theroycrafting? I understand that gems can be hard to get or expensive for some people, but that has nothing to do with what is best.
If you can get your hit from gear, then gem all agi +minimal meta requirements. If you are lacking some hit after all gear is added, then use some 5 agi 5 hit or whatever gems you need to.
1) We haven't even finished BT, we aren't even touching SWP yet. >.<
2) I am 20 points over the un-surefooted hit cap, I know. But if I get my legionkiller, that's 19 hit down the drain from tossing my arcanite steam-pistol. Or if I get a Bristleblitz Striker off of Archi this sunday. This is why I was talking about doing some hit loss math- there are a number of pieces that I need to upgrade from, notably my cloak (Dark Reaver to Fiends), my ring (lethality to Primal Wrath), and my ranged weapon(Steam-pistol to legionkiller), which together total 54 hit rating, dropping me down from 162 to 108 hit, which would let me drop two hit/agi gems (going to 98 hit) regardless of whether I get them now or when I get said upgrades. (heh, just did the math here all over again for you guys to see it. :P)
3) 5 int won't be of much help giving only 150 mana from the two, but the 5 crit would be nice. I'll pick up two chrysoprases from the steamvault, and until then, use two jaggeds.
4) I'm not replacing the scope. This has been discussed before- the mats are way too costly to waste on an item that is set to be replaced as quickly as possible. The Steam-pistol isn't worth it.
5) I refuse to chain chug them while sitting in hawk, I didn't say I don't use them at all. that's just stupid. I've been rather adamant on getting as much agility as possible per slot, but tossing those two greens into the legs really is a smart move, which I hadn't thought of before. A problem I've had before, trying to look on too small a measure of management and missing the bigger picture. Heh. Thanks for the help on that.
6) That I do, Nosleep. But I don't have ANY T6 gear. My best stuff is the hunter badge pants, gloves and ring, with the Halberd from Naj and the rogue bracers from Teron, of which the last two are items I got within just this past week. I`ve gotten a bit used to having set gear because for the longest time, I wasn`t getting any upgrades. By actually looking at what I need to shift out so that I have to do a minimum of rearranging as I get upgrades means that I can actually plan it out and save myself the trouble of changing things later. It`s nothing to do with `not wanting to be the best`.
7) I think the system of chain-chugging pots is worse, not using them period. I'm also not stupid enough not to realize that if the buff an item gives me is better for my DPS by a wide enough margin to overwhelm that of a pure agi item, that I should use it, There's a reason why I wear the SSO necklace as Aldor instead of the NotD, even though I have both. Again, I'm looking to what I can do to minimize the impact on the future, not try to skimp.
8) it's not that I can't afford it, it's that I have not much time to do things aside from the raiding itself, barely time to do my netherwing dailies. And again, I'm highly argumentative, it doesn't mean that I am not listening, nosleep. But I won't accept "this is best" as an answer; WHY it's best is what I need (I'm not referring to the simple answers of like why agi over AP is better, etc. but the more technical, in depth explanations for some things).
2) I am 20 points over the un-surefooted hit cap, I know. But if I get my legionkiller, that's 19 hit down the drain from tossing my arcanite steam-pistol. Or if I get a Bristleblitz Striker off of Archi this sunday. This is why I was talking about doing some hit loss math- there are a number of pieces that I need to upgrade from, notably my cloak (Dark Reaver to Fiends), my ring (lethality to Primal Wrath), and my ranged weapon(Steam-pistol to legionkiller), which together total 54 hit rating, dropping me down from 162 to 108 hit, which would let me drop two hit/agi gems (going to 98 hit) regardless of whether I get them now or when I get said upgrades. (heh, just did the math here all over again for you guys to see it. :P)
3) 5 int won't be of much help giving only 150 mana from the two, but the 5 crit would be nice. I'll pick up two chrysoprases from the steamvault, and until then, use two jaggeds.
4) I'm not replacing the scope. This has been discussed before- the mats are way too costly to waste on an item that is set to be replaced as quickly as possible. The Steam-pistol isn't worth it.
5) I refuse to chain chug them while sitting in hawk, I didn't say I don't use them at all. that's just stupid. I've been rather adamant on getting as much agility as possible per slot, but tossing those two greens into the legs really is a smart move, which I hadn't thought of before. A problem I've had before, trying to look on too small a measure of management and missing the bigger picture. Heh. Thanks for the help on that.
6) That I do, Nosleep. But I don't have ANY T6 gear. My best stuff is the hunter badge pants, gloves and ring, with the Halberd from Naj and the rogue bracers from Teron, of which the last two are items I got within just this past week. I`ve gotten a bit used to having set gear because for the longest time, I wasn`t getting any upgrades. By actually looking at what I need to shift out so that I have to do a minimum of rearranging as I get upgrades means that I can actually plan it out and save myself the trouble of changing things later. It`s nothing to do with `not wanting to be the best`.
7) I think the system of chain-chugging pots is worse, not using them period. I'm also not stupid enough not to realize that if the buff an item gives me is better for my DPS by a wide enough margin to overwhelm that of a pure agi item, that I should use it, There's a reason why I wear the SSO necklace as Aldor instead of the NotD, even though I have both. Again, I'm looking to what I can do to minimize the impact on the future, not try to skimp.
8) it's not that I can't afford it, it's that I have not much time to do things aside from the raiding itself, barely time to do my netherwing dailies. And again, I'm highly argumentative, it doesn't mean that I am not listening, nosleep. But I won't accept "this is best" as an answer; WHY it's best is what I need (I'm not referring to the simple answers of like why agi over AP is better, etc. but the more technical, in depth explanations for some things).
Well cost is reality. Obviously in a perfect world every gem in his gear would be epic and it would all be agil gems with 2 crit/stam gems. I would hope he's figured that out by now. At the same time if he has a realistic expectation that he's going to replace the gear in a very small period of time, regemming it now is not cost efficient- the amount of dps you gain per individual gem change is really not that large. So the pants for instance, are a great example of something he should regem, because who knows when or if he's going to replace them. But the T4 helm? If he's working on the S3 why should he waste 50-400g (on my server delicate living rubies are about 75g, delicate crimson spinels about 325g, judging from what he's said, I expect his server gems to be more expensive than mine) to get a very small upgrade in stats that will be replaced within a few weeks. T6 gloves have fairly reliable drop rate, so depending on how far down he is on the list of folks to get them, it may or may not make sense for him to regem those now. He needs to make a reasonable judgement call on how long he expects to have various pieces and decide which ones it makes sense to regem. I'm more concerned about his gun scope, because unless he's buying the badge weapon, there's no reasonable predicting of when he's going to upgrade the weapon and that seems like it would be a far bigger upgrade.
I think his priorities should be on upgrading the ring and cloak (and resocketing any gear he can't be sure of replacing within a month), the cloak is simple since that's just badges, the ring he needs to do timed ZAs for, does your guild have ZA runs you can go on Serf? You could use a berserker's call from Zul'jin too while you're in there
I think his priorities should be on upgrading the ring and cloak (and resocketing any gear he can't be sure of replacing within a month), the cloak is simple since that's just badges, the ring he needs to do timed ZAs for, does your guild have ZA runs you can go on Serf? You could use a berserker's call from Zul'jin too while you're in there
Yeah, I'm hoping to get in on my guilds' ZA bear mount runs for the actual timed chest gear, notable the fiends cloak and the ring; i actually switched from the blood knight cloak to this one because of the hit, believe it or not, haha. As for the gear I have- T6 gloves soon is a definite. If the token drops, I'm pretty much guarenteed it. Only three people including me spoke up last Hyjal, and two tokens dropped- No one else can use it, I guess, heh. As for when to upgrade my ranged weapon- Legionkiller is a guarenteed -mine-, and they've gotten it to drop a lot, just not the last two Supremus kills. Waiting for that so I can slap the one I have onto it instead, or perhaps the badge bow (Which is better? It's really too fast for my tastes, honestly, but is it worth it?) or if I get a lucky Archi drop, the Bristleblitz.
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Originally Posted by Serf
I don't pop mana pots because I never leave Viper. I've found that the 155 AP it gives isn't worth the lost of the longevity having Viper on from the start gives me. Even at the low end it's still recovering a very nice portion of mana every tick.
As for the crit scope: With a base 34.24% crit rate, I'm pretty sure that a little more crit won't help me as much as a damage scope, or am I misinterpreting the effect of damage scopes as increasing the weapon damage ratio (177-329 going to 187-339) when it is something else altogether? As for Assault to bracers, yeah, I know that it gives a higher benefit than stats, but I'm an agility whore. >.>; The extra stamina helps a little when it comes to raid-wide damage (I'm very barely over the minimum health cap for naj unbuffed) and since Lightning Reflexes adds all your agility together before multiplying it, it seems to givea better bonus than most calculators I've seen give it credit for, though it is still DPS-wise inferior to Assault, of course. As for the 25 points into Marks it's for the efficiency and for the Imp. Hunter's Mark; i'm sacrificing the bonii of IAS and barrage for even more raid utility. I also refuse to chain chug pots because I feel that that method is a format of exploiting something they didn't want, which it seems is apparent with what has been revealed to us about WotLK. It always seemed like a bit of a cop out. (personal opinion, I know it ends up making me worse for DPS. i appreciate the pointer though.) For the half as many auto shots on my part, he has 1.9 un-modified haste for his autoshots. I have 2.52. I also tend to lead with arcane or multi, and the mobs don`t last all that long, heh- at least that`s what it seems to be to me. I`m not really sure as to what`s up with it for sure myself. I use a steady/auto macro with hand-weaved arcane and multis, using the castsequence macro I posted in a previous post. |
As others have stated, you should be using AoH as much as possible and only using AoV when necessary. Ideally, you should limit reliance on AoV by use of mana pots (with fel mana being ideal), mana oils (dual weilding allows the use of two and can provide more DPS than a 2Her), and Elixirs of Major Mageblood. Furthermore, as your crit rating goes up, the benefit from TotH will increase as well as helping to reduce the need for Efficiency and AoV. Personally, I have lived without any points in Efficiency since becoming 70 and have been able to manage my mana successfully for the most part even without mana support in raids beyond BoW and the spirit buff. I did struggle a little early on before my crit was high enough to get good returns from TotH.
And for the record, AoH does about 40 more DPS when active not 11.07. The raw conversion that they use between AP and DPS on your character sheet doesn't take into account a lot of factors. The number is even greater than 40 DPS when you add in haste affects.
And yes, I have read your argument about mana pots being an "exploit" and "cheating" and not "what Blizzard intended". If it was not what Blizzard intended, they wouldn't have already changed it instead of waiting until a new expansion when they revamp everything. Currently, the use of mana pots is the universal default method for managing mana for just about every class and has been since well before TBC. Not using mana pots for your argument is artifically constraining your performance, but if that is what you choose to do and your guild is fine with it, that is fine.
Of course, the ideal is to use haste potions instead of mana potions if you have sufficient mana support from the raid to do so. However, you should not be using AoV to allow yourself to use haste potions unless you can get an extra 240+ DPS using the haste potion over its 12s to overcome to continuous loss of 40 DPS over the 2 min cooldown. For my character, the use of a haste potion by itself or on top of haste drums does not provide anywhere near 240+ DPS. It provides about 65 DPS for me with my 2.36 unhasted weapon speed and 1:1.4/1:1 rotation. Now this number will vary for different people depending on their unhasted weapon speed and their chosen rotations.
Also as others have stated, the crit scope destroys the damage scope. On my character, it is a difference of about 10 DPS, but it has an even greater effect than that. That extra crit (about 1.25%), results in a little more focus for your pet resulting in more DPS, more mana from TotH (about 0.5% more), more proc on your Hourglass, and greater EW uptime, helping the raid's DPS as well. Plus, there is no realistic cap on crit. Unless you are giving up a lot in other stats to get it, it never hurts you to have more crit. My average crit in raids is decently over 50%, and even more so when I get lucky and have GoA.
Now I understand not wanting to spend the cash to upgrade your scope now when you believe you will be getting a better weapon soon, but ideally you should be using the crit scope.
And as others have stated, 24 AP is slightly better RAID DPS (not just personal DPS) than +4 stats. 44 health is not worth the loss in DPS and will not save your life in the vast majority of cases nor will the 60 mana keep you from going OOM. On my character, it does +2.9 DPS at the cost of 1.35 average EW AP when ideally performing my rotation and with including LR and BoK. Raid DPS comes out ahead here. Raid DPS even comes out more ahead in situations where I am not performing my ideal rotation consistently, due to moving, interruptions, latency, FPS, bad timing, etc., and am actually only gaining a fraction of that 1.35 EW AP. Furthermore, raid DPS also comes out ahead in boss fights where the physical DPS is spread (e.g, High King, early Mag, Lurker when submerged, Fanthom Lord, possibly on Moro, Hydross, Vashj, Alar, parts of Solarian, parts of the Kael fight, most of Shade of Akama, Gorefiend with them ghosted, Mother when some have the debuff, Council, parts of Illidian, and possibly Anetheron) or when you are raiding with less physical DPS or when physical DPS has died.
I understand and can sympathize with the cost of potions and elixers. I was really hurt by it for a long time, but survived with being fully prepared for every raid with every consumable I needed well before we had any daily quests, much less the number of easy and clumped together ones we have today. However, I utilized a better solution for getting the pots and elixirs than having to do dailies and be a slave to the cost and availability of alchy products or mats on the AH. What I ended up doing was create an alt herb/alchy and level it to 70, which is pretty easy these days. although still time-consuming. The fel mana potion recipe was easy to farm, although I had to pay well for the major mageblood one, but it was worth it. Now instead of an hour doing dailies and hoping what I need is on the AH, I can spend less than an hour farming the mats on my alt and making the consumables. Plus, it makes me money with doing the daily gathering quest and selling the extra mats. Now I realize that leveling an alt to be your herb/alchy slave may be too much for a lot of people, but if you can do it, it will pay off with being worth the investment and continue to do so in the future.
And as another example or option to try, this is how I do my 1:1.5/1:1.4 rotations, and I tend to be quite successful with it with even leading my guild in damage done on some bosses (saying this only to show the effectiveness of this approach when done correctly). I use a macro for the base auto-steady rotation. Personally, I use the simple /cast /cast with KC added (and LB for my WS). If you have low latency, the /castsequence version is a good alternative as is Manilto's 2 part macro. Whichever works best for you. I try to cast my specials over the last 0.5 seconds of the steady shot cast so that they will be qued up and ready to go to sneak in before the auto shot fires (I use Quartz to see my cast bar but other mods work as well). This approach may seem awkward at first, but once you do it for a while it becomes second nature. For the 1:1.5, its always 2 auto steadies then a special. So once you get used to the manual rotation, you get into a rythym that becomes second nature. The 1:1.4 is not much different except that you put 3 auto-steadies before one of the specials. Now I will be the first to admit that it can be difficult to do this ideally (I know that I am not perfect at it) and that you can easily not be performing anywhere near the ideal DPS if you perform it incorrectly. That is where practice comes in.
The other nice aspect of the manual rotation as Rivkah stated is its flexibility. As Intermission stated, it allows you to substitute in other specials, like refreshing Hunter's Mark or a sting, in place of one of the specials with minimizing the impact to your DPS. Furthemore, it allows you to better adjust your rotation to haste affects. For example, if I had a slightly slower weapon speed, I would be better off using a 1:1.5 rotation unhasted and then switching to a 1:1.4 rotation when under haste affects of drums or better and then a 1:1 at haste greater than haste potions. With manually perfoming my specials around the core steady-auto macro, it is just a function of being aware of my haste situation and modifying my timing of specials appropriately.
Now I realize that the manual implementation can be difficult for some people and that for them that using a macro will result in higher DPS for them. Using the full macro for the 1:1.5/1:1.4 is not the maximum DPS they could be doing, but it may be the maximum DPS that they can realistically do, and that is fine. Whatever works for each person in their given situation.
And concerning the badge crossbow at your point in the game with no T6 4-set bonus, if used properly with about 22 passive haste and a 1:1.4/1:1 rotation, it definitely beats the best that can be reasonably achieved with the Steam Pistol or Legionkiller despite the loss in agility from my analyses. I have all 3 weapons. Of course, if you can get BBS soon, then I wouldn't bother spending the 150 badges on it.
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Originally Posted by Serf
As for the crit scope: With a base 34.24% crit rate, I'm pretty sure that a little more crit won't help me as much as a damage scope, or am I misinterpreting the effect of damage scopes as increasing the weapon damage ratio (177-329 going to 187-339) when it is something else altogether?
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I will just quote cheeky here.
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Originally Posted by Cheeky
By punching in insane values in the DPS spreadsheet hand-adjust area, I've found the point in crit% where the [Khorium Scope] outperforms the [Stabilized Eternium Scope] is when your crit rate is at about 95%. This is when using a Priority rotation, so Multi-Shot is included.
Always, always use the +crit scope for PvE. (The point of inflection for PvP depends heavily upon the target resilience.) |
Little behind? We've already covered that I was being argumentative and already understand most of those things, just that I needed more in-depth reasoning for some of them, and others I needed to give up thee mindset or an easy-going raider and push the bar, which was a new feeling for me since until this past sunday, I was doing things like Kara still, and was lucky to have an SSC raid. @_@ Things changed drastically and quickly for me in that respect.
I'm not going to argue AotH DPS with you- I was just using the fla conversion AP to DPS ratio, not anything else, due to my lack of knowledge of exactly how much benefit to include compared with the instant shots, et al. Not having Excel to use a spreadsheet sort of sucks. Regardless, while using AotH I run out of mana about a minute and a half into the fight (Trust me, if I could trade out the leather I have for a non-agi/AP downgrade that's int-capable mail, I would, if just for the mana pool) while with AotV I will JUST run out of mana at the end of about four minutes and a couple of seconds, about the average lifetime of a boss. I've tried switching to AotH instead of AotV for fights I know my stable DPS and lost DPS because of the lack of mana forcing me once both mana pot and dark rune were on CD to resort to a steady/auto only rotation gimping my damage output. having the sustainable DPS (and higher ratio of crit output to keep EW up) is more important to me, at the least right -now- than outputting a few more DPS in the first part of a fight.
The scope again... It is ludicrously expensive in gold and/or materials to make, and I have a very realistic expectation to get a better weapon shortly. there is no reason at the moment to change the scope I have. Dropping a single point from TotH even though it's only a 37% drop in chance, seems to have hit my mana efficiency a lot harder than i'd have expected as well. I'm looking to shift some points around to get 3/3 out of it, because it does have a larger impact by far than efficiency.
As for waiting for a new expansion- It's a very, very large change to the entire game's balance. Why would they NOT wait to change it? Blizzard has always had a reputation for making sure to work things out- sure in the end there might still be bugs, but I don't think I've experienced less bugs with any other game company. They do do great work on making sure it's more than just out of beta to get to the masses.
The AP/Stats conversation is waaaaay over. You should have read the rest of the posts leading up to now. :P As for levelling a 70, I don't have the time, nor the patience to do so. Quests are boring early on, and no one runs the instances except maybe SM, which is where I thrive- in instances. Sure I'll do quests outside instances, but 100 fetch quests or 100 "kill X mob type A" quests aren't very appealing. I do have herb/alch friends I've made since then, so if I can provide the raw materials (cheaper than the finished product) they can craft the elixirs for me; Still don't know anyone with Fel mana, and they never sell on the AH.
Regarding my shot rotation/macro, I was asking if it looked alright, or if I could improve it, not that I don't know anything about shot rotations. ;P I've been auto/steady macro since 62, and I've been 70 for 38 of my 72 days played (I got stalled at 60 for a long time because of not having TBC at the time). I do appreciate the feedback though, and hope someone else reading it gets some benefit from it.
I'm not sure how soon I can get my hands on the Bristleblitz, but it shouldn't be too long; As far as I know no one else hunter-wise wants it.
I'm not going to argue AotH DPS with you- I was just using the fla conversion AP to DPS ratio, not anything else, due to my lack of knowledge of exactly how much benefit to include compared with the instant shots, et al. Not having Excel to use a spreadsheet sort of sucks. Regardless, while using AotH I run out of mana about a minute and a half into the fight (Trust me, if I could trade out the leather I have for a non-agi/AP downgrade that's int-capable mail, I would, if just for the mana pool) while with AotV I will JUST run out of mana at the end of about four minutes and a couple of seconds, about the average lifetime of a boss. I've tried switching to AotH instead of AotV for fights I know my stable DPS and lost DPS because of the lack of mana forcing me once both mana pot and dark rune were on CD to resort to a steady/auto only rotation gimping my damage output. having the sustainable DPS (and higher ratio of crit output to keep EW up) is more important to me, at the least right -now- than outputting a few more DPS in the first part of a fight.
The scope again... It is ludicrously expensive in gold and/or materials to make, and I have a very realistic expectation to get a better weapon shortly. there is no reason at the moment to change the scope I have. Dropping a single point from TotH even though it's only a 37% drop in chance, seems to have hit my mana efficiency a lot harder than i'd have expected as well. I'm looking to shift some points around to get 3/3 out of it, because it does have a larger impact by far than efficiency.
As for waiting for a new expansion- It's a very, very large change to the entire game's balance. Why would they NOT wait to change it? Blizzard has always had a reputation for making sure to work things out- sure in the end there might still be bugs, but I don't think I've experienced less bugs with any other game company. They do do great work on making sure it's more than just out of beta to get to the masses.
The AP/Stats conversation is waaaaay over. You should have read the rest of the posts leading up to now. :P As for levelling a 70, I don't have the time, nor the patience to do so. Quests are boring early on, and no one runs the instances except maybe SM, which is where I thrive- in instances. Sure I'll do quests outside instances, but 100 fetch quests or 100 "kill X mob type A" quests aren't very appealing. I do have herb/alch friends I've made since then, so if I can provide the raw materials (cheaper than the finished product) they can craft the elixirs for me; Still don't know anyone with Fel mana, and they never sell on the AH.
Regarding my shot rotation/macro, I was asking if it looked alright, or if I could improve it, not that I don't know anything about shot rotations. ;P I've been auto/steady macro since 62, and I've been 70 for 38 of my 72 days played (I got stalled at 60 for a long time because of not having TBC at the time). I do appreciate the feedback though, and hope someone else reading it gets some benefit from it.
I'm not sure how soon I can get my hands on the Bristleblitz, but it shouldn't be too long; As far as I know no one else hunter-wise wants it.
Just one thing on the fel mana potion recipe. It can be easily farmed at the blood elf camp in southern Shadowmoon Valley (check wowhead for the exact spot). It's a BOP recipe, but has a very high drop rate, so maybe you can talk an alchemist friend into going with you to farm it for a bit. I'm not a potion specialist and I had trouble finding someone in my guild who was and also had the recipe, so I took one of them to farm it, dropped in 3 kills. There are some group quests in that area too that a lot of people tend to skip, so maybe you guys can get those done while you're there if you haven't done them yet.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
Personally, I use the simple /cast /cast with KC added (and LB for my WS). If you have low latency, the /castsequence version is a good alternative as is Manilto's 2 part macro. (...) I try to cast my specials over the last 0.5 seconds of the steady shot cast so that they will be qued up and ready to go to sneak in before the auto shot fires (I use Quartz to see my cast bar but other mods work as well).
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You got me confused here Whitefyst...
I was under the impression weaving specials using the /cast /cast macro (or Manito's) would still result in more SS than Auto's and clipping of Auto shots.
Or what you're saying is when adding the weaving shots, the macro adjusts (because of GCD?) and never gets off two steadies in a row, and the result is a smooth SS - special - auto - SS - auto - SS - special - auto sequence?
I thought the /castsequence macro was always used for the 1:1.5/1:1.4 rotations, never the /cast /cast...
Thanks for any clarification, but anyway i will try the /cast /cast macro with weaving straight away tonight on DrBoom, so maybe I find the answer myself.
And btw Whitefyst, Rivkah and the rest of you, thanks for all the excellent data and information you have been providing in this thread.
EDIT: spelling and some wording/format
Last edited by Harrumph : 08/03/08 at 10:11 PM.
Thing is harrumph... All this information i've forced them to say in the last few pages, doesn't it end up being very useful and up to date? ;D
Also, I think there's been an assumpion going on this whole time- that I normally get SoW and/or JoW. it's not a common thing for any of my raids.
Update: WOOHOO! Finally got rid of my Tunic, though not for what I thought it would be- Yay Vest of Mounting Assault! Just wish it had a bit more int on it. Still trying for my RGC.
Also, I think there's been an assumpion going on this whole time- that I normally get SoW and/or JoW. it's not a common thing for any of my raids.
Update: WOOHOO! Finally got rid of my Tunic, though not for what I thought it would be- Yay Vest of Mounting Assault! Just wish it had a bit more int on it. Still trying for my RGC.
Last edited by Serf : Yesterday at 1:38 AM.
Hopeless case. Just ignore him. I am from now on.
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Originally Posted by Serf
Thing is harrumph... All this information i've forced them to say in the last few pages, doesn't it end up being very useful and up to date? ;D.
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You fail at playing a hunter, and your raid fails for not recognizing the level of fail you bring to the raid. You have just been looking for ways to justify it, and you have not nor will not get any here.
The least he could have done is use the high end +damage scope. Just noticed that he is a miner too... The scope mats are free for him...
I tried a /cast /cast macro with 0 haste and BBotB and found I would often chain 3 steadys in a row, so that's a no go with my latency at least. But the /castsequence seems to work fine.
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Originally Posted by Harrumph
You got me confused here Whitefyst...
I was under the impression weaving specials using the /cast /cast macro (or Manito's) would still result in more SS than Auto's and clipping of Auto shots. Or what you're saying is when adding the weaving shots, the macro adjusts (because of GCD?) and never gets off two steadies in a row, and the result is a smooth SS - special - auto - SS - auto - SS - special - auto sequence? I thought the /castsequence macro was always used for the 1:1.5/1:1.4 rotations, never the /cast /cast... |
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Originally Posted by Dralmoo
I tried a /cast /cast macro with 0 haste and BBotB and found I would often chain 3 steadys in a row, so that's a no go with my latency at least. But the /castsequence seems to work fine.
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I use the badge xbow with 52 passive haste to get me into the speed to use a 1:1.4 unhasted and a 1:1 with a haste potion. My much faster weapon speed, reduces the chance of chaining steadies when also adding in the specials. Furthermore, I do not spam my auto-steady macro, I have a good feel for the timing of when to cast using the macro so that the shot order is correct (not that I do not make mistakes from time to time or have a bad patch). I also like using the /cast /cast since for my manual weaving so that when I am at high haste effects I just spam it and stop using my specials. This is what works best for me since I am a button clicker and not a button pusher. I have the /cast /cast macro action button positioned between arcane shot and multishoot buttons so that I can monitor their cooldowns as a soft cue and only have to move a button to the left or right when want to cast a special. I seem be be successful with this since it fits well with my weapon speed and game style of play. However, I readily recognize that this will not work for everyone under various situations since it is optimal for my situation or other similar ones.
Now if I ever convert to a 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation, I will definitely be spamming that macro as long as I have a quick enough weapon speed to not chain steadies.
Firstly; Understood and accepted by the people who frequent these forums from the start, and have the ability to utilize Cheeky's spreadsheets (Which, by the way, ONLY work with the actual Microsoft Excel product, which is quite expensive at 229 dollars american) perhaps- Quite a few people get directed here to get information and the more basic things they simply don't know. I've directed a large number of peeople here and they've told me the information they've found here is singularily unhelpful because you're expected to know a certain amount of information- information that isn't to be found elsewhere except perhaps in scattered fragments across all 104 pages of this forum, if you're lucky.
Secondly; Of course gemming for hit when already capped is a waste. But when you get a Halberd, Steam-Pistol, upgrade to Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots from Edgewalker's, and get Insidious bands within about 3-4 days of each other, that's a LOT of hit- 70 hit, to be exact. It's not exactly like I gemmed for hit after getting all these things.
Thirdly; No, my situation is not special. I'm tired of trying to find one specific piece of useful information in over a hundred pages, and tired of being told this site is unhelpful for people I and others recommend to come here (I was originally recommended t come here to see if I could get some info to better myself, which I have) for information because of more of the same.
Fourthly; I most certainly do not fail at playing a hunter. I wouldn't have been brought in to the raid if I did fail. The fact with minimal SR we managed to down Mother, and with an end-of-the-raid total DPS of almost 20K also certainly indicates that the raid isn't fail, either. Bad troll is bad.
Lastly; Farming the bowmen, still no scope. No one I know has the scope either, and no one on Trade when I ask has it either. I'd make it myself, but again, no recipe.
Secondly; Of course gemming for hit when already capped is a waste. But when you get a Halberd, Steam-Pistol, upgrade to Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots from Edgewalker's, and get Insidious bands within about 3-4 days of each other, that's a LOT of hit- 70 hit, to be exact. It's not exactly like I gemmed for hit after getting all these things.
Thirdly; No, my situation is not special. I'm tired of trying to find one specific piece of useful information in over a hundred pages, and tired of being told this site is unhelpful for people I and others recommend to come here (I was originally recommended t come here to see if I could get some info to better myself, which I have) for information because of more of the same.
Fourthly; I most certainly do not fail at playing a hunter. I wouldn't have been brought in to the raid if I did fail. The fact with minimal SR we managed to down Mother, and with an end-of-the-raid total DPS of almost 20K also certainly indicates that the raid isn't fail, either. Bad troll is bad.
Lastly; Farming the bowmen, still no scope. No one I know has the scope either, and no one on Trade when I ask has it either. I'd make it myself, but again, no recipe.
This is my first post here.... however i have been reading and reading for some time now. I have found many options/opinions on macros and specs here and I thank you all ahead of time for all the effort you put into this.
However I have tryed many macros and a few other pointers I have found along the way and in the end i find myself in my curent gear eather slipping behind in dps or just failing to get it up were I think it should be.(curently around 1000) I only have my T6 gloves badge gear and T5 shoulders to work with. ATM I have a Hourglass and the Talon of Al'ar to work with as my main trinkets. Any and all sugestions will be taken into consideration and welcomed with oppen eyes.
As far as content my guild has downed all but the last boss in Hyjal and started our way in BT (3 bosses downed so far)
Ty for your time
However I have tryed many macros and a few other pointers I have found along the way and in the end i find myself in my curent gear eather slipping behind in dps or just failing to get it up were I think it should be.(curently around 1000) I only have my T6 gloves badge gear and T5 shoulders to work with. ATM I have a Hourglass and the Talon of Al'ar to work with as my main trinkets. Any and all sugestions will be taken into consideration and welcomed with oppen eyes.
As far as content my guild has downed all but the last boss in Hyjal and started our way in BT (3 bosses downed so far)
Ty for your time
From everything I've read and experienced, the talon of Alar sucks, get a bloodlust brooch or Hourglass of the Unraveller or, if you still run gruuls/SSC DST/Tsunami (best in slot, as far as I'm concerned, others may diagree... generally, listen to them over me if their names are rivkah, intermission, or Whitemyst. ;P).
Gear Dilemma and Hit Cap
My guild is just starting to work on Kalecgos, and I'm having a few gear issues. I have Halberd of Desolation and Felspine dropped for me last night.
I have issues reaching the hit cap (95) and losing the 30 hit from Halberd makes me wince. I can switch StarStrider for QuickStrider (+15 hit), although I was also hoping to switch Leggings of Pursuit for Bow Stitched (-15). We've only seen the Council trinket(+20) once, and after last night that's likely to go to a DPS warrior before me now.
I've plugged the various alternatives into Cheeky's and came up with the following values:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...1sk1ESEg&hl=en
I haven't yet been to Dr Boom to see what the Felspine's haste does to my rotation - the values in that spreadsheet are based on the assumption that it doesn't ruin it through latency/whatever. I'm not entirely comfortable with haste yet, although I have Cloak of Fiends in the bank in case needed.
Armory Lite - The WoW Armory Alternative: Karleek of Kilrogg
That's showing arcane res gear from last night, normally I have Blood Knight War Cloak (never got Aran's, and we only killed Kael a couple of times before attunements were removed), and Bladefist's Breath (changing for Ashtongue trinket though).
The highest DPS and crit and EW values there (ignoring the lines which wish I had Madness already) are where I'm at 71 hit, but that makes me uncomfortable. Obviously the misses are counted by Cheeky's, so the DPS figures should be right (shouldn't they?), and I could even equip Halberd before doing a vital misdirect and unequip after, I suppose.
I'm aware there's not a direct question in all that; I'd just like some opinions and guidance.
I have issues reaching the hit cap (95) and losing the 30 hit from Halberd makes me wince. I can switch StarStrider for QuickStrider (+15 hit), although I was also hoping to switch Leggings of Pursuit for Bow Stitched (-15). We've only seen the Council trinket(+20) once, and after last night that's likely to go to a DPS warrior before me now.
I've plugged the various alternatives into Cheeky's and came up with the following values:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...1sk1ESEg&hl=en
I haven't yet been to Dr Boom to see what the Felspine's haste does to my rotation - the values in that spreadsheet are based on the assumption that it doesn't ruin it through latency/whatever. I'm not entirely comfortable with haste yet, although I have Cloak of Fiends in the bank in case needed.
Armory Lite - The WoW Armory Alternative: Karleek of Kilrogg
That's showing arcane res gear from last night, normally I have Blood Knight War Cloak (never got Aran's, and we only killed Kael a couple of times before attunements were removed), and Bladefist's Breath (changing for Ashtongue trinket though).
The highest DPS and crit and EW values there (ignoring the lines which wish I had Madness already) are where I'm at 71 hit, but that makes me uncomfortable. Obviously the misses are counted by Cheeky's, so the DPS figures should be right (shouldn't they?), and I could even equip Halberd before doing a vital misdirect and unequip after, I suppose.
I'm aware there's not a direct question in all that; I'd just like some opinions and guidance.
EW uptime
Hello
Just a quick question:
Anyone know a mod to keep track for EW uptime?
I'm running with 2/3 EW now at about 45% crit raid buffed, so i would like to see some in-game value for our "boss debuff
" uptime.
Would be nice to get a history of these uptime value and compare them with 3/3 EW
cheers
Just a quick question:
Anyone know a mod to keep track for EW uptime?
I'm running with 2/3 EW now at about 45% crit raid buffed, so i would like to see some in-game value for our "boss debuff
" uptime.
Would be nice to get a history of these uptime value and compare them with 3/3 EW
cheers
Serf:
1). -Use a school/office/friends computer that has Excel.
-Every SV hunter in the world who can understand some English comes here to this forum and this thread.
-We are extremely LUCKY that all the recent SV information is posted HERE in this thread and exclusively in this thread.
It makes searching for what you need to know MUCH easier than wading through dozens of threads, instead of just the one. 104 pages of SV material is a DIAMOND MINE!
-If people don't know some of the 'basics' to which you refer, there are several 'beginners guides' posted throughout the net. Everything that is written here is based and founded on those basics. You can deduce the basics from what is written here, and if you follow what is written here, you may actually never even need to know the basics.
2). -It takes, at best, less than 1 second to buy new gems on AH. 3-4 days is 259,200-345,600 seconds. Feel free to take your pick as to which particular one of those seconds you wish to spare to regem.
3). -Your situation is not special. You are just refusing to follow good advice and wasting forum space with irrelevant objections. Posters here kindly answered your questions and provided you with information that had already been explored several times earlier in the thread. You chose to ignore it. So even though you now have the information you 'needed' before you on a silver platter, you still arent partaking of it. What a waste. Everything is here. It may be difficult to understand at times as there are a lot of numbers and the occasional contrary/confusing poster (such as yourself) but its all here.
Pretty lame and ironic in my opinion to start blaming the forum as 'unhelpful for people' considering how much help and attention you have, undeservedly, gotten yourself already.
4). -You do fail as a SV hunter. The reason is the following. SV is the best Hunter tree, for raids, owing to EW. However it is only best for 1 Hunter, after which BM is the best tree. Therefore the best hunter should SV. Therefore the hunter that is SV should be the best he/she can be. Capiche? There can be only 1 SV hunter, and this important position should be given to the one that best can fulfill it. Not to mention it is also the hardest tree to play to its optimum.
5). -Your guild has 7 hunters, of which you are the only SV.
3 of the hunters have: Stabilized Eternium Scope: [Stabilized Eternium Scope] (+28Crit)
3 of the hunters have: Khorium Scope: [Khorium Scope] (+12dmg)
1 of the hunters has: Adamantite Scope: [Adamantite Scope] (+10dmg)
(Guess who, its you. Nuff said)
Can you please be quiet and keep your 'opinions' to yourself and let this thread carry on its important work without your constant interjections. Your just making a fool of yourself. The last drop for me was when you start blaming this forum for being 'unhelpful' when in fact it has proven itself to be everything but in regards to you. This place owns. Don't try to shift the blame for your own shortcomings onto what is for everybody else the galactic center of SV net resources.
1). -Use a school/office/friends computer that has Excel.
-Every SV hunter in the world who can understand some English comes here to this forum and this thread.
-We are extremely LUCKY that all the recent SV information is posted HERE in this thread and exclusively in this thread.
It makes searching for what you need to know MUCH easier than wading through dozens of threads, instead of just the one. 104 pages of SV material is a DIAMOND MINE!
-If people don't know some of the 'basics' to which you refer, there are several 'beginners guides' posted throughout the net. Everything that is written here is based and founded on those basics. You can deduce the basics from what is written here, and if you follow what is written here, you may actually never even need to know the basics.
2). -It takes, at best, less than 1 second to buy new gems on AH. 3-4 days is 259,200-345,600 seconds. Feel free to take your pick as to which particular one of those seconds you wish to spare to regem.
3). -Your situation is not special. You are just refusing to follow good advice and wasting forum space with irrelevant objections. Posters here kindly answered your questions and provided you with information that had already been explored several times earlier in the thread. You chose to ignore it. So even though you now have the information you 'needed' before you on a silver platter, you still arent partaking of it. What a waste. Everything is here. It may be difficult to understand at times as there are a lot of numbers and the occasional contrary/confusing poster (such as yourself) but its all here.
Pretty lame and ironic in my opinion to start blaming the forum as 'unhelpful for people' considering how much help and attention you have, undeservedly, gotten yourself already.
4). -You do fail as a SV hunter. The reason is the following. SV is the best Hunter tree, for raids, owing to EW. However it is only best for 1 Hunter, after which BM is the best tree. Therefore the best hunter should SV. Therefore the hunter that is SV should be the best he/she can be. Capiche? There can be only 1 SV hunter, and this important position should be given to the one that best can fulfill it. Not to mention it is also the hardest tree to play to its optimum.
5). -Your guild has 7 hunters, of which you are the only SV.
3 of the hunters have: Stabilized Eternium Scope: [Stabilized Eternium Scope] (+28Crit)
3 of the hunters have: Khorium Scope: [Khorium Scope] (+12dmg)
1 of the hunters has: Adamantite Scope: [Adamantite Scope] (+10dmg)
(Guess who, its you. Nuff said)
Can you please be quiet and keep your 'opinions' to yourself and let this thread carry on its important work without your constant interjections. Your just making a fool of yourself. The last drop for me was when you start blaming this forum for being 'unhelpful' when in fact it has proven itself to be everything but in regards to you. This place owns. Don't try to shift the blame for your own shortcomings onto what is for everybody else the galactic center of SV net resources.
Karleek: Have you considered [Biznicks 247x128 Accurascope].
It might provide you, temporarily, with enough hit to carry you over till you can balance your gear to return to a crit scope.
It would also allow you to juggle some points in/out of Surefooted in the meantime.
It might provide you, temporarily, with enough hit to carry you over till you can balance your gear to return to a crit scope.
It would also allow you to juggle some points in/out of Surefooted in the meantime.
Cheeky's does model different rotations for Quick Shots and DST, you can set them to be 1:1 instead of 3:2. I don't think it models Rapid Fire at all, though.
I think if you look back at Whytefist's posts, you'll see that the 1.5/1.4 rotation is actually better dps for you (in ideal/spreadsheet conditions). In fact... I'm not going back to re-read at the moment, but... I believe the 1.5/1.4 rotation is actually better even if you do have 4piece t6. The reason you see the awesome dps numbers being output by hunters using the /cast /cast macro and a 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is because a) they didn't know this at the time as Whytefists calculations are relatively recent and b) it is roughly 1 billion times easier to use the /cast /cast macro than it is to somehow make a 1.5 work when accounting for latency, changing haste speeds, etc. This is especially true if you have anything else to do during the raid (leading, moving, etc.)
Myself, I've switched to the /cast /cast macro even though I don't have the 4 piece, and no DST, and I've seen an increase in DPS. Considering that my latency jumps from 140 to 350 ms, that for some reason I chain steadies without bound, and that a 1.5 is actually impossible to use when CC is around, I have seen a real-world dps increase by downgrading to some haste gear to stop chaining steadies and just spamming the macro.
This probably makes me a bad hunter for not being able to hand-weave. Oh well.
Edit/Addition: If the castrandom macro is working for you, you are the luckiest hunter in the world. I see nothing but shots going off in the wrong order (therefor clipping), chaining steadies, and general assmuppetry when I use that sort of macro.
Myself, I've switched to the /cast /cast macro even though I don't have the 4 piece, and no DST, and I've seen an increase in DPS. Considering that my latency jumps from 140 to 350 ms, that for some reason I chain steadies without bound, and that a 1.5 is actually impossible to use when CC is around, I have seen a real-world dps increase by downgrading to some haste gear to stop chaining steadies and just spamming the macro.
This probably makes me a bad hunter for not being able to hand-weave. Oh well.
Edit/Addition: If the castrandom macro is working for you, you are the luckiest hunter in the world. I see nothing but shots going off in the wrong order (therefor clipping), chaining steadies, and general assmuppetry when I use that sort of macro.
As I mentioned in my original post, it was 2am and I was tired as hell so I very well may have been clipping and who knows what else with the castrandom macro. The only thing that seemed to register in my head was the dps number on recount being higher with the castrandom. I suppose I'll just have to go into my next raid with the /cast and the /castrandom macros and swap them out to get some real-time feedback. I was hoping someone here had already tried this and could tell me if I was assbackwards.
assmuppetry - I'm going to be using this whenever the opportunity presents itself now. ha ha
assmuppetry - I'm going to be using this whenever the opportunity presents itself now. ha ha
The thing I don't quite understand is...if a 3:2 is worse DPS than 1.5/1.4:1 for Survival under ideal conditions, wouldn't it mean that for BM it's worse then a 1.5/1.4:1 as well? Since BM doesn't actually gain any direct damage benefits to Steady Shot?
So are we basically saying that, with a 3.0 speed weapon, unless you have enough haste for a 1:1 ratio (which would be easier for a BM to reach) that a 1.5/1.4:1 ratio is your best bet?
Seems to go against everything.
So are we basically saying that, with a 3.0 speed weapon, unless you have enough haste for a 1:1 ratio (which would be easier for a BM to reach) that a 1.5/1.4:1 ratio is your best bet?
Seems to go against everything.
Kraven - You have to remeber that at Dr. Boom your multishot will almost always hit 3 targets, while at a boss fight there is usually just one. So you can't compare those dps numbers properly.
Don't forget that the mana usage when using arcane/multi is insane.
Holy hell Joheltro, thanks man. I'm honestly embarrassed that I forgot to take that into account. Looks like I'll stick to the /cast /cast for boss fights and use the /castrandom for trash clearing without cc.
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
First, my stating of how I did my rotation was meant purely as an example, and I stated that people have to use what is best for them. Macros are sensitive to so many things, such as weapon speed, latency, FPS, how often you hit the macro, what method you use for casting, etc.
I use the badge xbow with 52 passive haste to get me into the speed to use a 1:1.4 unhasted and a 1:1 with a haste potion. My much faster weapon speed, reduces the chance of chaining steadies when also adding in the specials. Furthermore, I do not spam my auto-steady macro, I have a good feel for the timing of when to cast using the macro so that the shot order is correct (not that I do not make mistakes from time to time or have a bad patch). |
I tested Manito's vs /castsequence on Dr Boom with my setup.
0/20/41, AotH, no Hunter's Mark, not popping any trinkets etc, using Blackflight arrows
Sunfury bow, 2.52 drawspeed
Around 150 ms ping
average of 10 series with each macro, running until OOM.
Manual weaving Arc, Multi.
1:1 /castsequence macro:
DPS-------Damage------Time to OOM---Mana/s-----Mana/1k Damage
930,5-----105910,2------108,75 s--------55,38-------56,87
3:2 Manito macro:
DPS-------Damage------Time to OOM---Mana/s-----Mana/1k Damage
947,66----98494---------101,2 s---------59,52-------61,15
With the /castsequence I was doing 1:1.5 rotation.
However, with the 3:2 macro, I found it impossible (for me ofc, not saying that it's completely impossible) to avoid chaining 2 steadies every 3rd round.
So the sequence ended up as not a traditional 1:1.5. Instead it was SS-auto-SS-Arcane-auto-SS-auto-SS-SS-auto-SS-multi-auto. This actually had one benefit... (see conclusion below)
Chaining 3 SS happened rarely (1 occurence about every 2 or 3 series I ran).
Observations/conclusions for myself:
I was trying for a long time to execute the Manito macro in such a way as to not get 2 chained SS every 3rd round, but never managed to. Might not be possible with 2.9 bow? So for the measurements, I abandoned this approach, and "semi-spammed" like I usually do (spamming in bursts around the end of steady cast and after every weave of a special).
Running with the 1:1 macro with my setup will sustain DPS for a longer time, and I will continue to run this for any fights where I don't have additional Mana regen support.
However, I will try with the 3:2 in the next raid I happen to get a shammy/sp, as it does consistently put out higher DPS for me on Dr Boom, see if it works out to more damage also in raid.
I found the 3:2 macro easier to weave with, here's why: With 1:1 macro, every 2nd or 3rd time Multi was up, the CD would finish so late that I'd either delay the next auto, or even fail and get the Multi in after the auto, delaying my next steady with a fair amount. With Manito's, I'd get more time on the cd:s, because there is a round of SS-SS-auto inbetween. This makes the CD of Multi end in better time for the next cast, and I'd never clip the next auto, or miss the Multi and accidentaly put it after the auto.
I'll run another test once I get my hands on the badge xbow and see what the increased speed does for me (will have enough badges next week i think).
Hey guys,
I have got a tiny question. I am thinking about the Brutallus encounter and asking myself when is the best moment to pop up cooldowns ( trinkets, haste potions, rapid fire ) ? Should I wait until sunder armor is stacked up 5 times + curse of recklessness or should I pull them out right from the beginning ?
I have got a tiny question. I am thinking about the Brutallus encounter and asking myself when is the best moment to pop up cooldowns ( trinkets, haste potions, rapid fire ) ? Should I wait until sunder armor is stacked up 5 times + curse of recklessness or should I pull them out right from the beginning ?
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
Hey guys,
I have got a tiny question. I am thinking about the Brutallus encounter and asking myself when is the best moment to pop up cooldowns ( trinkets, haste potions, rapid fire ) ? Should I wait until sunder armor is stacked up 5 times + curse of recklessness or should I pull them out right from the beginning ? |
Side note: Trolls, get in a soaking group and wait until that 3rd slash to pop berserking.
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Originally Posted by Kutak
Your first step in considering cooldowns on Brutallus is, of course, that you use them as many times as possible over the course of the fight. 2 minute CDs can be used 3 times, 3- and 5-minute ones twice, etc. Next, yes, they should be used when as many debuffs are up as you can reasonably expect that increase your damage (FF, CoR, imp JoC if you get it, sunders... what else am I missing? ). Waiting for these to be put up should never prevent you from using your cooldowns the maximum number of times in a fight, if they do the people responsible for them are being slowasses. AP trinkets should be popped in conjunction with a hasted state whenever possible, and I don't mean merely drums. Using multiple haste-inducing cooldowns at once is trickier... I can't say for sure when it is or isn't a good idea unfortunately, maybe someone else can.
Side note: Trolls, get in a soaking group and wait until that 3rd slash to pop berserking. |
I was working a bit on it and I think this should work out well:
6:00 - pull
5:30 - trinket + rapid fire + drums + flame cap
5:15 - haste potion
5:00 - everything on cooldown
.
.
.
.
.
.
3:15 - trinket + haste potion + drums
.
.
.
.
1:15 - drums + haste potion + trinket
1:00 - rapid fire + flame cap
0:00 - Brutallus deceased
flame cap? i dont quite understand the use for it, may someone please so kind as to elaborate on that please. At least for the hunter PoV.
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Originally Posted by germanboy3383
flame cap? i dont quite understand the use for it, may someone please so kind as to elaborate on that please. At least for the hunter PoV.
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Originally Posted by Arkedos
Well of course I am considering to use the cooldowns as often as possible.
I was working a bit on it and I think this should work out well: 6:00 - pull 5:30 - trinket + rapid fire + drums + flame cap 5:15 - haste potion 5:00 - everything on cooldown . . . . . . 3:15 - trinket + haste potion + drums . . . . 1:15 - drums + haste potion + trinket 1:00 - rapid fire + flame cap 0:00 - Brutallus deceased |
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Originally Posted by Kutak
Looks right, only thing that might be missing is a heroism, if your guild gives you those. Note that your drums are not every 2 minutes exactly, which is fine if there are only 1-2 drummers in your group; with more you will probably have to be regular about them or risk overlap. Try to feign death only while not using cooldowns, threat permitting. I assume you know all this, but eh.
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Originally Posted by Kutak
Looks right, only thing that might be missing is a heroism, if your guild gives you those. Note that your drums are not every 2 minutes exactly, which is fine if there are only 1-2 drummers in your group; with more you will probably have to be regular about them or risk overlap. Try to feign death only while not using cooldowns, threat permitting. I assume you know all this, but eh.
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Rather than possibly using a non-optimal haste routine based around slash damage, I think you're better off doing this if you are SV using the 2:1/3:2/1:1 cycle:
Whenever he is slashing your side, just watch his cast bar. The moment it starts, release macro. Begin macro again once an autoshot has happened after slash. Fill the empty time with a HM, Multishot, etc. That way you avoid the steady-chaining.
Random trivia, if people are curious why it steady-chains (ie, loss of one or more autoshots) on slash or any incoming pushback damage:
GCD: 1.5 seconds.
Steady: ~1.2
Time needed for an auto to fire: ~0.2 (thanks to whichever patch it was). Note: I dont mean the "0.5 second" autoshot cast, as that can now begin during a steady. There still is however, a time required with no action for an auto to go through.
So with a steady every GCD, the autos spit out whenever the swing timer lets them (be it 2:1, 3:2, or 1:1 frequency based on current swing speed from haste) inside the 1.5 - 1.2 gap between Steady finishing and the next Steady starting (when GCD is up). When the pushback on steady happens, the ~0.3 gap where autoshot would of been spat out is now gone, as steadyshot got pushed into that area, and the next one started right away as GCD was up. Then due to serverside queuing and GCD-lax, future autoshots can also be skipped during the funky compensation that the client/server/UI dance does (hence "steady-chains" of up to ~4 steadies without an auto).
Simply casting a multishot on slash, or waiting a split second, will prevent any loss of autoshots.
Oh and while I'm on the topic, the reason why haste makes this whole thing smoother is because it both shortens the cast of Steadyshot (meaning for larger steady-gcd gap), and also potentially reduces auto cast time. Then it also has the benefit of reaching the well known haste break points where autoshot frequency changes under various procs. Latency plays into this during the serverside queuing of steady shot, and it also more noticable during non-GCD capped times (ie, pushback), the the corrensponding casts afterwards. KC between the two steadies where an auto is due to fire also makes the steady<->gcd gap smaller, potentially skipping an autoshot without enough passive haste.
Rambling is fun, and it's been ~20 pages since I repeated the /cast/cast theory.
Whenever he is slashing your side, just watch his cast bar. The moment it starts, release macro. Begin macro again once an autoshot has happened after slash. Fill the empty time with a HM, Multishot, etc. That way you avoid the steady-chaining.
Random trivia, if people are curious why it steady-chains (ie, loss of one or more autoshots) on slash or any incoming pushback damage:
GCD: 1.5 seconds.
Steady: ~1.2
Time needed for an auto to fire: ~0.2 (thanks to whichever patch it was). Note: I dont mean the "0.5 second" autoshot cast, as that can now begin during a steady. There still is however, a time required with no action for an auto to go through.
So with a steady every GCD, the autos spit out whenever the swing timer lets them (be it 2:1, 3:2, or 1:1 frequency based on current swing speed from haste) inside the 1.5 - 1.2 gap between Steady finishing and the next Steady starting (when GCD is up). When the pushback on steady happens, the ~0.3 gap where autoshot would of been spat out is now gone, as steadyshot got pushed into that area, and the next one started right away as GCD was up. Then due to serverside queuing and GCD-lax, future autoshots can also be skipped during the funky compensation that the client/server/UI dance does (hence "steady-chains" of up to ~4 steadies without an auto).
Simply casting a multishot on slash, or waiting a split second, will prevent any loss of autoshots.
Oh and while I'm on the topic, the reason why haste makes this whole thing smoother is because it both shortens the cast of Steadyshot (meaning for larger steady-gcd gap), and also potentially reduces auto cast time. Then it also has the benefit of reaching the well known haste break points where autoshot frequency changes under various procs. Latency plays into this during the serverside queuing of steady shot, and it also more noticable during non-GCD capped times (ie, pushback), the the corrensponding casts afterwards. KC between the two steadies where an auto is due to fire also makes the steady<->gcd gap smaller, potentially skipping an autoshot without enough passive haste.
Rambling is fun, and it's been ~20 pages since I repeated the /cast/cast theory.
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Originally Posted by myonions
You seem to have exactly the gear I am aiming for on my wishlist so it's nice to see those results from it.
Just out of curiosity were you using Manito's or the Standard BM Macro? I have found that Manito's seems to lock Autoshot more frequently than the standard /cast /cast BM macro for some reason. I have been getting some lag though recently and that probably explains it in my case...creating a little panic when you are spamming FD and it will not cast |
Yes, I was using Manito's Macro with a G15 keyobard. Group setup was 2 BM Hunters, Feral Tank, Resto Shaman and myself. 1 Bloodlust and 2 Drums (I believe the other BM Hunter ran out of drums just before we pulled).
I also found that lag and poor latency can put a large dent in our DPS, on my old computer I would raid with about 8 FPS on average, it wasn't fun at all.
I just changed from BM (BRK standard spec) to Survival.
We have been setting records for kill times in bosses where EW really counts, but my personal DPS is down from 2-3 place in the raids to 9-11. The personal DPS does not really matter to me if we are killing more bosses, but from reading here I think I am missing some tricks.
The World of Warcraft Armory
the whip is usually a Tsunami.
Any suggestions for some easy agility? I am going with Comets and Agility. My hit is way too high with Surefooted and being a bow equipped Troll. But where to change?
We have been setting records for kill times in bosses where EW really counts, but my personal DPS is down from 2-3 place in the raids to 9-11. The personal DPS does not really matter to me if we are killing more bosses, but from reading here I think I am missing some tricks.
The World of Warcraft Armory
the whip is usually a Tsunami.
Any suggestions for some easy agility? I am going with Comets and Agility. My hit is way too high with Surefooted and being a bow equipped Troll. But where to change?
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Originally Posted by DOOA
I just changed from BM (BRK standard spec) to Survival.
We have been setting records for kill times in bosses where EW really counts, but my personal DPS is down from 2-3 place in the raids to 9-11. The personal DPS does not really matter to me if we are killing more bosses, but from reading here I think I am missing some tricks. The World of Warcraft Armory the whip is usually a Tsunami. Any suggestions for some easy agility? I am going with Comets and Agility. My hit is way too high with Surefooted and being a bow equipped Troll. But where to change? |
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
Sorry for being too vague. I read about 30 pages of this thread. some really helped.
WWS of last night's BT run
WWS Loading...
As you can tell, I am still learning to play SV.
Armory has my correct setup now.
Why does EW show up so few times in WWS? I have it up a LOT.
WWS of last night's BT run
WWS Loading...
As you can tell, I am still learning to play SV.
Armory has my correct setup now.
Why does EW show up so few times in WWS? I have it up a LOT.
Last edited by DOOA : Today at 1:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by DOOA
Sorry for being too vague. I read about 30 pages of this thread. some really helped.
WWS of last night's BT run WWS Loading... As you can tell, I am still learning to play SV. Armory has my correct setup now. Why does EW show up so few times in WWS? I have it up a LOT. |
Thanks - did not know it could do that
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Originally Posted by DOOA
Thanks - did not know it could do that
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In any case with 3/3 points and a decent crit rate (>40% raid buffed), it should stay up around 90% of the time, minimum. When I go surv I only go 2/3 EW and get around a 95% uptime with 55% crit, good way to save a talent point if you can achieve that with raid synergies. Best bet is just to watch the debuff manually on boss fights where there is minimum time where you don't shoot the boss i.e. najentus, teron, bloodboil, brutallus etcetc.
Abey, first off your spec looks pretty good. The only change I might make is moving one point from TotH to fill out EW. That is generally recommended until you hit ~50% crit raid buffed.
A couple quick notes on your gear... As SV you will only need 95 hit rating to be capped. If you can, try to snag the [Bristleblitz Striker] since it appears you are downing Archi. The 3.0 speed is nice, and you have the haste to support it. As SV it should probably go to you first, as the xbow is better for BM hunters. Also, if the T6 aren't an option for you (low on DKP or whatever) pick up the [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] if they drop.
All in all, looks pretty good though. That rotation should be fine 'till you get your 4 piece.
P.S I'm very jelous of your trinkets.
Edited for Grammar. I didn't realize it was that strict here.
A couple quick notes on your gear... As SV you will only need 95 hit rating to be capped. If you can, try to snag the [Bristleblitz Striker] since it appears you are downing Archi. The 3.0 speed is nice, and you have the haste to support it. As SV it should probably go to you first, as the xbow is better for BM hunters. Also, if the T6 aren't an option for you (low on DKP or whatever) pick up the [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] if they drop.
All in all, looks pretty good though. That rotation should be fine 'till you get your 4 piece.
P.S I'm very jelous of your trinkets.
Edited for Grammar. I didn't realize it was that strict here.
Last edited by LuringShadow : Yesterday at 5:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by LuringShadow
Abey, first off your spec looks pretty good. The only change I might make is moving one point from TotH to Fill out EW. That is generally recommended until you hit ~50% crit raid buffed.
A couple quick notes on your gear... As SV you will only need 95 hit rating to be capped If you can, try to snag the [Bristleblitz Striker] since it appears you are downing Archi. The 3.0 speed is nice, and you have the haste to support it. As SV it should probably go to you first, as the xbow is better for BM hunters. Also, if the T6 aren't an option for you (low on DKP or whatever) pick up the [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] if they drop. All in all, looks pretty good though . That rotation should be fine till you get your 4 piece. P.S I'm very jelous of your trinkets |
1) I will make the change to ToTH and EW, as you suggest when next I log in.
2) I have no better items to place in the slots where I have hit rating (hence why I'm over the cap)
3) As we are pushing BT content, I hope to get the shoulder item you mention above (I'm ahead of the other hunter on the SK list *wink*)
4) I have 2pcs T6 and 2pcs T5 which I sometimes swap out depending on the fight (needing to heal the pet etc.,). How I am geared now in the Armory is pretty much my default raid setup.
Yes, I was fortunate enough to win the DST back when we DID have DKP.
Once again, thank you for your suggestions and refinements. This is just a great thread w/ awesome, knowledgeable ppl.
Abey.
Hi. long time reader.
I recently respecced survival and i basicly know nothing about the shot rotations or mechanics of this spec. if someone could give me a few pointers or tips that would be a huge thanks. i've been BM for a year now and raiding BT as this specis new to me.
armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
I recently respecced survival and i basicly know nothing about the shot rotations or mechanics of this spec. if someone could give me a few pointers or tips that would be a huge thanks. i've been BM for a year now and raiding BT as this specis new to me.
armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
Im very didcated to Survival, number 1 on agility US wide by a healthy margin.
Gankbang.com :: Armory
Ive theorycrafted long and hard about my spec. I think that Im doing fine, but in terms of personal dps I see myself as lacking, and of course I should be, but if I have a chance to do more dmg while still supplying my utility buff, then I might as well do it.
The World of Warcraft Armory
So my question to the EJ guru's are what do I have to upgrade to? What is the best choice for spec?
My thoughts are as such:
Helm - T6
Shoulders - T6
Back - Thalassian Wildercloak
Chest - T6
Bracer - T6
Pants - Bow-stitched Leggings
Trinkets are a bit of an issue, Im very happy with my Tsunami Talisman, but what to pair with it is difficult to decide.
Originally I used the hourglass, which turned into me using the DM Card Wrath, nether of which IMO helped my dps or EW up time.
DST - more personal dps, Probably similar to 5/5 Imp Hawk.
Madness of the Betrayer - This was my thought initially just due to itemization.
Alchemist Stone - Ive always considered it, but not till now have I seriously wanted it.
With 2/2 Combat Experience and 5/5 Lightning Reflexes Every point of Agility is crucial, its why I dropped Mining for Enchanting (+8 agi to rings) and why I ditched the CE Helm kit for the Old World Libram of Voracity (+8 agi to helm).
And seeing how engineering only gives me rp toys and a helm that I would never want, this idea bumps higher in my mind everyday.
As to spec, I see a lot of T6 go 7/20/34 Imp Hawk + 2% dmg But at the cost of 2% agi which at my stat numbers is around 30agi. I dont have T6 though, So Ive always been 0/27/34 with 1/3TotH 3/3EW, then once my agility was high enough and crit waranted 2/3TotH 2/3EW. And recently Ive been playing around with my current spec of 0/29/32 again 2%dmg while maintaining 2/2 CE and 3/3 Barrage. So overall Much more dmg, around 100-200 More in raids. But wow do I run out of mana, Hence my current equipping of Mark of Conquest. In a normal 6M dmg fight It restores identical to 2/3 TotH.
So Ive blind sided you with thoughts and the past, what are your thoughts on all of this?
Gankbang.com :: Armory
Ive theorycrafted long and hard about my spec. I think that Im doing fine, but in terms of personal dps I see myself as lacking, and of course I should be, but if I have a chance to do more dmg while still supplying my utility buff, then I might as well do it.
The World of Warcraft Armory
So my question to the EJ guru's are what do I have to upgrade to? What is the best choice for spec?
My thoughts are as such:
Helm - T6
Shoulders - T6
Back - Thalassian Wildercloak
Chest - T6
Bracer - T6
Pants - Bow-stitched Leggings
Trinkets are a bit of an issue, Im very happy with my Tsunami Talisman, but what to pair with it is difficult to decide.
Originally I used the hourglass, which turned into me using the DM Card Wrath, nether of which IMO helped my dps or EW up time.
DST - more personal dps, Probably similar to 5/5 Imp Hawk.
Madness of the Betrayer - This was my thought initially just due to itemization.
Alchemist Stone - Ive always considered it, but not till now have I seriously wanted it.
With 2/2 Combat Experience and 5/5 Lightning Reflexes Every point of Agility is crucial, its why I dropped Mining for Enchanting (+8 agi to rings) and why I ditched the CE Helm kit for the Old World Libram of Voracity (+8 agi to helm).
And seeing how engineering only gives me rp toys and a helm that I would never want, this idea bumps higher in my mind everyday.
As to spec, I see a lot of T6 go 7/20/34 Imp Hawk + 2% dmg But at the cost of 2% agi which at my stat numbers is around 30agi. I dont have T6 though, So Ive always been 0/27/34 with 1/3TotH 3/3EW, then once my agility was high enough and crit waranted 2/3TotH 2/3EW. And recently Ive been playing around with my current spec of 0/29/32 again 2%dmg while maintaining 2/2 CE and 3/3 Barrage. So overall Much more dmg, around 100-200 More in raids. But wow do I run out of mana, Hence my current equipping of Mark of Conquest. In a normal 6M dmg fight It restores identical to 2/3 TotH.
So Ive blind sided you with thoughts and the past, what are your thoughts on all of this?
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Originally Posted by Samonu
Im very didcated to Survival, number 1 on agility US wide by a healthy margin.
Gankbang.com :: Armory Ive theorycrafted long and hard about my spec. I think that Im doing fine, but in terms of personal dps I see myself as lacking, and of course I should be, but if I have a chance to do more dmg while still supplying my utility buff, then I might as well do it. |
Don't forget that your personal DPS is a portion of your raid's DPS.
Some choices you should REALLY scrutinize are the glyph on your helm, Nethercleft leg enchant, the dual wielding unbral shivs, and the Mark of Conquest (this really shouldnt be a raid consideration, more of a solo trinket). Also the barrel blade is not very good for being survival specced (although the speed would be good for the 7/x/x spec - but you don't have 4T6 or a DST); the badge bow would be a marked improvement. Also a helm with a meta socket for a relentless would be nice. S3/S4 helm is very good for raiding. Crusade is a far better darkmoon card than wrath, Bloodlust Brooch is better than wrath. Also being a draenei survival hunter, you are 14 points over the hit cap, which is more potentially lost DPS.
Combat Experience for survival is rarely considered a positive choice - its just not a very good talent, also not having Rapid Killing with 27-29 points in MM is odd. I would think that a higher end damage bow and a 20/41 spec would work better for you. Really though, I think your gearing choices are a bigger problem than the 0/27/34.
I would recommend that you delve into the spreadsheet and then add your personal DPS plus the result from Expose Weakness Calculator
to make some choices here. Agility is VERY important when specced survival, but must be weighed with all things.
Hey all,
I just came back to wow after some time off and have been looking at some of the new gear now available. In the near future I plan to upgrade my Sunfury to the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes.
My question is:
1. The rotation with this crossbow from what I understand is very tight to be doing a 1:1.5 rotation which I have been using for some time now. What rotation is recommended when using this weapon? ***Please note that I am SV specced and do not have any additional haste items other then my quiver***
I have been reading a lot about this 2:1 rotation but haven't given it a try since being back. Does this rotation make use of AS or MS or purely Auto and Steady? Please explain
Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.
I just came back to wow after some time off and have been looking at some of the new gear now available. In the near future I plan to upgrade my Sunfury to the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes.
My question is:
1. The rotation with this crossbow from what I understand is very tight to be doing a 1:1.5 rotation which I have been using for some time now. What rotation is recommended when using this weapon? ***Please note that I am SV specced and do not have any additional haste items other then my quiver***
I have been reading a lot about this 2:1 rotation but haven't given it a try since being back. Does this rotation make use of AS or MS or purely Auto and Steady? Please explain
Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.
Wowhead has weight filters to help balance whether the agility bonus (I add 10% to the agility number for the kings benefit) is really superior to a non-agility, but high AP/crit/haste/hit etc. item. I've found a number of upgrades that listed lower agility numbers, and was skeptic at first, but I have seen a marked increase in my overall DPS, and a very minor decrease overall in my agility, so my EW hasn't suffered much at all.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that Gankbang.com is not very accurate, as you have to add your own character to the ranks by hand, rather than it actually parse the armory database and show all characters within your search. Yes, your agility is impressive, I fully admit, but using that site to say "I'm No. 1!" is a bit out there.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that Gankbang.com is not very accurate, as you have to add your own character to the ranks by hand, rather than it actually parse the armory database and show all characters within your search. Yes, your agility is impressive, I fully admit, but using that site to say "I'm No. 1!" is a bit out there.
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Originally Posted by Faerdael
Don't forget that your personal DPS is a portion of your raid's DPS.
Some choices you should REALLY scrutinize are the glyph on your helm, Nethercleft leg enchant, the dual wielding unbral shivs, and the Mark of Conquest (this really shouldnt be a raid consideration, more of a solo trinket). The barrel blade is not very good for being survival specced. Helm with a meta socket for a relentless would be nice. Also being a draenei survival hunter, you are 14 points over the hit cap, which is more potentially lost DPS. Combat Experience for survival is rarely considered a positive choice - its just not a very good talent, Not having Rapid Killing with 27-29 points in MM is odd. I would recommend that you delve into the spreadsheet and then add your personal DPS plus the result from. Agility is VERY important when specced survival, but must be weighed with all things. |
I mean if Im the buff Hunter then I should be the best buff I can be, hence the 5/5 Imp Mark and degree in which I stack agility. I see a piece of gear with 8 more agility and 20 less ap and I think with 17% bonus thats almost 9, more crit, and more ap through ew back to me as well as the rest. I see it as an equal trade if not more so.
As far as Combat Experience is concerned, Its not that great, but given its a percentage that scales, its all relative to the amount of gear you have. I noticed a dramatic increase in not only ew up time but overall raid dps just from 2 points that I would have had in TotH, to which I could just mana pot if needs be.
Somethings double in purpose, the stm leg kit has agility but I am always on ranged tanking duty with sv health and tons of stm and -4% dmg through talents. And Umbral Shivs have the highest agility obtainable out of swp they just also have hit, so granted Im over hit cap but I havent gemed for hit. Also When I switched out my Coif for T4, I saw a huge dps loss, which I find odd but I think the gems I had to use in order to activate the meta was what I was seeing.
This current spec is just application and test of theorycrafting, Imo offering this level of agility to the raid while maintaining 900-950 dps is alright in my opinion. Granted you guys are the dps masters and know all about the formulas of what to use and how, else I wouldnt be asking you.
My main concerns are Trinket options and spec, what you have found to be the best given my spot in progression (T5).
Samonu, it is obvious to the majority of the old-timers around here that you are stacking agility too aggressively. I understand that you don't want to change that, as you're proud of what you've achieved, but you've come to us asking for help, and the only proper help to give is that you've stacked too much agility, and need to drop some of it for increases in personal DPS. If you are "very dedicated to survival" as you say, then that means properly weighing increases in EW strength (agility) versus other sources of personal dps (attack power, crit rating, armor penetration, haste), to maximize total raid DPS.
You say you'd take 8 agility over 20 AP. So would I. But when you picked a bracer enchant, you chose 4 agility over 24 AP. This is a little extreme. When you picked a leg enchant, you picked 12 agility over 50 AP and 12 crit rating. This is absolutely absurd. It's quite obvious that the popular choices for these sorts of things are the best choices. Umbral shivs aren't terrible, but getting the correct head enchant would mean you no longer need the hit from them, and many other things become better (badge MH fist, Rage, dagger of bad mojo, to name a few).
Quit with the stamina. "Ranged tanking?" for what?? The only things that come to mind are Supremus trash and Kaz'rogal/Azgalor trash. As far as I remember, there's no boss or trash that a hunter tanks in T5 content. Stamina should be just about ignored on gear and enchants.
Each point of Combat Experience is worse than each point of Ranged Weapon Spec. This has been theorycrafted repeatedly, so if you don't believe it, feel free to search the thread. 0/28/33 is a good spec if you want to stay that, just take 3 RWS and 3 EW. It's odd that given how dedicated you are to making your raid buff as good as possible that you'd only take 2/3 EW. With 40% crit and 1 shot per second, the difference between 2 EW and 3 EW is 89% versus 97% uptime. So only taking 2/3 EW is effectively costing you 8% of your agility. I'll bet that makes you no longer 1st in the US in agility.
The ranged weapon is the one equipment slot where a survival hunter will find that the good choices often have no agility. You'd get the most mileage of a 2.9 or 3.0 speed weapon, with the most important stat being the weapon DPS, by far. The best one you have access to is probably the steam pistol, or you could consider the badge crossbow, despite the nonoptimal speed. Vashj's bow and Legionkiller are both excellent choices if you can get to those bosses too. You also need a meta socket. The increased critical bonus of relentless earthstorm is not to be underestimated. The best way for you to get a meta socket quickly would be a Season 3 helm.
You say you'd take 8 agility over 20 AP. So would I. But when you picked a bracer enchant, you chose 4 agility over 24 AP. This is a little extreme. When you picked a leg enchant, you picked 12 agility over 50 AP and 12 crit rating. This is absolutely absurd. It's quite obvious that the popular choices for these sorts of things are the best choices. Umbral shivs aren't terrible, but getting the correct head enchant would mean you no longer need the hit from them, and many other things become better (badge MH fist, Rage, dagger of bad mojo, to name a few).
Quit with the stamina. "Ranged tanking?" for what?? The only things that come to mind are Supremus trash and Kaz'rogal/Azgalor trash. As far as I remember, there's no boss or trash that a hunter tanks in T5 content. Stamina should be just about ignored on gear and enchants.
Each point of Combat Experience is worse than each point of Ranged Weapon Spec. This has been theorycrafted repeatedly, so if you don't believe it, feel free to search the thread. 0/28/33 is a good spec if you want to stay that, just take 3 RWS and 3 EW. It's odd that given how dedicated you are to making your raid buff as good as possible that you'd only take 2/3 EW. With 40% crit and 1 shot per second, the difference between 2 EW and 3 EW is 89% versus 97% uptime. So only taking 2/3 EW is effectively costing you 8% of your agility. I'll bet that makes you no longer 1st in the US in agility.
The ranged weapon is the one equipment slot where a survival hunter will find that the good choices often have no agility. You'd get the most mileage of a 2.9 or 3.0 speed weapon, with the most important stat being the weapon DPS, by far. The best one you have access to is probably the steam pistol, or you could consider the badge crossbow, despite the nonoptimal speed. Vashj's bow and Legionkiller are both excellent choices if you can get to those bosses too. You also need a meta socket. The increased critical bonus of relentless earthstorm is not to be underestimated. The best way for you to get a meta socket quickly would be a Season 3 helm.
Well, I'm doing something wrong! First, I made all suggested changes to spec and gear, as outlined in this thread (awesome thread) based on guild progression content, gear, passive/active haste and pet (LB). The macro suggested on page 96 is the 1:1.4 as I have 386 HR. I plugged in the changes to the macro but neither arcane shot nor multi-shot are going off. I can manually weave NP and I'm totally willing to do this as I can't program for crap!
Here is the changed macro (modified from ye ole BM 3:2):
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot (Rank 9), Multi-Shot (Rank 6)
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrors
The referenced "MultiBarBottom" line helped KC from sticking my 3:2 macro and reads as:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
What have I messed up? I've searched this thread but can't find a good, complete macro that I can use for BOTH CC'd mobs as well as boss or non-CC'd mobs (ie., macro w/ and w/o multi-shot). I already feel foolish for having to ask a scripting question so please take it easy on me. Also, if I've overlooked a sweet spot in this thread that deals w/ this (ie., pg 55-58 which I DID re-read) please let me know and I'm happy to investigate further on my own.
Again, THIS is now the place I come to for all things hunter. You regulars are just an amazing group of folks. Thank you again for your time, advice and (of course) patience w/ ppl like me!
Sincere thanks always,
Abey.
In an attempt to answer my own question, I have uncovered these macros from other sources:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot,Steady Shot, Arcane Shot,Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot,Auto Shot,Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
but perhaps better for my purposes:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.44/combat/target !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
and I'll just weave multi-shot as needed based on CC v non-CC.
Any comments?
Abey.
Here is the changed macro (modified from ye ole BM 3:2):
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot (Rank 9), Multi-Shot (Rank 6)
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrors
The referenced "MultiBarBottom" line helped KC from sticking my 3:2 macro and reads as:
/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot
What have I messed up? I've searched this thread but can't find a good, complete macro that I can use for BOTH CC'd mobs as well as boss or non-CC'd mobs (ie., macro w/ and w/o multi-shot). I already feel foolish for having to ask a scripting question so please take it easy on me. Also, if I've overlooked a sweet spot in this thread that deals w/ this (ie., pg 55-58 which I DID re-read) please let me know and I'm happy to investigate further on my own.
Again, THIS is now the place I come to for all things hunter. You regulars are just an amazing group of folks. Thank you again for your time, advice and (of course) patience w/ ppl like me!
Sincere thanks always,
Abey.
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Originally Posted by Abey
Well, I'm doing something wrong! First, I made all suggested changes to spec and gear, as outlined in this thread (awesome thread) based on guild progression content, gear, passive/active haste and pet (LB). The macro suggested on page 96 is the 1:1.4 as I have 386 HR. I plugged in the changes to the macro but neither arcane shot nor multi-shot are going off. I can manually weave NP and I'm totally willing to do this as I can't program for crap!
Here is the changed macro (modified from ye ole BM 3:2): #showtooltip Steady Shot /console Sound_EnableSFX 0 /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot (Rank 9), Multi-Shot (Rank 6) /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 /console Sound_EnableSFX 1 /script UIErrors The referenced "MultiBarBottom" line helped KC from sticking my 3:2 macro and reads as: /castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot What have I messed up? I've searched this thread but can't find a good, complete macro that I can use for BOTH CC'd mobs as well as boss or non-CC'd mobs (ie., macro w/ and w/o multi-shot). I already feel foolish for having to ask a scripting question so please take it easy on me. Also, if I've overlooked a sweet spot in this thread that deals w/ this (ie., pg 55-58 which I DID re-read) please let me know and I'm happy to investigate further on my own. Again, THIS is now the place I come to for all things hunter. You regulars are just an amazing group of folks. Thank you again for your time, advice and (of course) patience w/ ppl like me! Sincere thanks always, Abey. |
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot,Steady Shot, Arcane Shot,Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot,Auto Shot,Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
but perhaps better for my purposes:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2.44/combat/target !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
and I'll just weave multi-shot as needed based on CC v non-CC.
Any comments?
Abey.
Abey,
What you probably want to do is simply use:
/castsequence steady shot, !auto shot
/click KCbuttonBlahBlah
And manually add both arcane and multi. This allows total flexibility in 1:1.5 vs 1:1.4 as you gain things like DST/IAotH/drums, as well as going to 1:1 with heroism/rapid fire.
You also seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of "reset=2.44" in the macro. All this part does is make it so that when you stop shooting and then start again, you'll start with an auto shot, not steady first. Personally, I like steady first, it allows for tight misdirected triple taps (steady-arcane-auto) without a need for a separate macro. You can simply do away with the reset conditions altogether, it's no big deal. Personally I have reset=5 and put steady shot first.
reset=target with auto shot first could actually be a problem, leading to things like 2 auto shots with no special in between when you're switching targets (Spitfire totems, shadow demons, etc).
Also, avoid signing your posts.
What you probably want to do is simply use:
/castsequence steady shot, !auto shot
/click KCbuttonBlahBlah
And manually add both arcane and multi. This allows total flexibility in 1:1.5 vs 1:1.4 as you gain things like DST/IAotH/drums, as well as going to 1:1 with heroism/rapid fire.
You also seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of "reset=2.44" in the macro. All this part does is make it so that when you stop shooting and then start again, you'll start with an auto shot, not steady first. Personally, I like steady first, it allows for tight misdirected triple taps (steady-arcane-auto) without a need for a separate macro. You can simply do away with the reset conditions altogether, it's no big deal. Personally I have reset=5 and put steady shot first.
reset=target with auto shot first could actually be a problem, leading to things like 2 auto shots with no special in between when you're switching targets (Spitfire totems, shadow demons, etc).
Also, avoid signing your posts.
Quick question and I apologize for the randomness. I'm a SV hunter with no haste and this is going to sound dumb to most but through a turn of a events I'm using a the sunfury bow with my guild which is just starting sunwell and I don't mean trash. We havn't had to much luck on range weapons dropping in HJ or BT.
So the question is will the badge bow distroy my dps because I can't maintain a 1:1.5 at 2.52 weapon speed?
And if I get it what is the recomended rotaion knowing I have no haste gear?
Thanks
So the question is will the badge bow distroy my dps because I can't maintain a 1:1.5 at 2.52 weapon speed?
And if I get it what is the recomended rotaion knowing I have no haste gear?
Thanks
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Gearknight
Abey,
What you probably want to do is simply use: /castsequence steady shot, !auto shot /click KCbuttonBlahBlah And manually add both arcane and multi. This allows total flexibility in 1:1.5 vs 1:1.4 as you gain things like DST/IAotH/drums, as well as going to 1:1 with heroism/rapid fire. You also seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of "reset=2.44" in the macro. All this part does is make it so that when you stop shooting and then start again, you'll start with an auto shot, not steady first. Personally, I like steady first, it allows for tight misdirected triple taps (steady-arcane-auto) without a need for a separate macro. You can simply do away with the reset conditions altogether, it's no big deal. Personally I have reset=5 and put steady shot first. reset=target with auto shot first could actually be a problem, leading to things like 2 auto shots with no special in between when you're switching targets (Spitfire totems, shadow demons, etc). Also, avoid signing your posts. |
Thanks for your advice. As mentioned in my post, the macro displayed was simply one I had uncovered that seemed close to what I wanted, but I was not the author of the macro. I displayed it as I copied it for completeness sake but your comment on the reset is well taken.
In any event, thanks for the concise macro as I like things to be clean.
Last edited by Abey : Today at 8:11 PM. Reason: To comply w/ forum rules.
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Originally Posted by Digitrev
So the question is will the badge bow distroy my dps because I can't maintain a 1:1.5 at 2.52 weapon speed?
And if I get it what is the recomended rotaion knowing I have no haste gear? |
Also concluding my post on the Sunfury Bow some pages ago.
I recently aquired the badge bow and have run DrBoom tests comparing it with Sunfury. I ran 4 tests, weaving arcane/multi with either the 1:1 macro (/castsequence) or 3:2 macro (/cast /cast or Manito's, mine being Manito's) for each bow.
I have no haste gear.
My armory if you wanna check for gear. The World of Warcraft Armory
The rotation I'm doing with the 1:1 macro is a regular 1:1.5 weaving arcane/multi.
With the 3:2 what I get it's more like a "1:1.6" in the sense that i'll get a chained steady shot in every 3rd round, so it's:
steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-multishot-auto etc etc...
Others have reported they can achieve a true 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation for this macro, I just seem to not get the timing down for that.
Average of 10 series until oom (with Aspect of the Hawk):
Sunfury
1:1
DPS-------Damage----------Time
937,34----106530,4---------108,73
3:2
DPS-------Damage----------Time
957,91------99733,6---------101,53
Badge xbow
1:1
DPS-------Damage----------Time
981,38-----108850,9---------106,48
3:2
DPS-------Damage----------Time
1019,76---106543,1---------101,55
Difference:
Badge xbow over Sunfury:
Rotation DPS-----Damage------Time
1:1-------44,04----2320,5--------2,25
3:2-------61,85----6809,5--------0,03
Conclusion: no matter if you run the 1:1.5 rotation or the "1:1.6" rotation, you will get an increased DPS from using the Badge XBow. It's always better, regardless of rotation.
And yes you can achieve a good rotation with the badge bow despite the faster speed. It will be tighter but it's definitely possible to get a solid 1:1.5 rotation down using the 1:1 macro. The 3:2, despite the dodgier rotation, has produced better dps for me, tho it is more Mana inefficent and might be hard to sustain in raid.
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Originally Posted by Digitrev
I didn't use multi in my 1.1:5 test for 2 purposes. First being shooting multi at Dr.boom and hitting his bombs around him throw you're dps compairsons way off. And 2nd because multi has a cast time and Arcane shot barly fits with a 2.44 weapon speed. Its already behond me how AS cools fast enough to be shot every 2x 1:1 at 2.44 theres hardly any room for a .5 cast time.
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General comment about using any mob to do comparative dps tests when the mechanic is shot rotation or weapon speed (anything that ultimately alters the mix of shots fired). Use recount and just record the number of shots fired in the same time period. Assign a static value for dmg for each shot type. You can get this off of a WWS. Relative DPS then becomes simple math. You dont need to do a ton of trials to eliminate variability in crit rates or dice rolls. For the multi-shot problem just divide the number recount shows by 3 - i.e. if it says 21 multis you hit boom 7 times. Here is a link to a post I made in this thread back in January 08 that does just this: linky <-- look at the method, not the conclusions as things have changed several times over.
As always, if you want an easy place to do testing that includes your pet (perhaps to test the impact of placing KC in your macro) there is the blasted lands guys or the ghosts in DM North up in the kings room. They never die, never attack and record dmg like a regular mob. You can also take a weapon you want to train skill in up there, hit auto attack and go do something. Because you are in combat it wont log you off.
edit: Dont forget to compute relative mana costs as well. Arcane is 2x and multi is 2.5x more than steady. People frequently get excited when they figure out ways to eek out 40 more dps while ignoring the fact that they increased mana consumption by 40% doing so.
With Blizzard announcing that they will release WotLK talents before the actual expansion, has anyone been running any DPS numbers for a level 70 build?
This is the Talent Calculator I have been experimenting with;
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
There are some interesting choices for PvE Survival. I for one am debating the worth of talents like "Hunting Party" and "Sniper Training" because of the sacrifices that would have to be made in the other trees. The possible loss of talents like "Improved Aspect of the Hawk" or "Mortal Shots".
This is the Talent Calculator I have been experimenting with;
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
There are some interesting choices for PvE Survival. I for one am debating the worth of talents like "Hunting Party" and "Sniper Training" because of the sacrifices that would have to be made in the other trees. The possible loss of talents like "Improved Aspect of the Hawk" or "Mortal Shots".
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Originally Posted by Blaize
With Blizzard announcing that they will release WotLK talents before the actual expansion, has anyone been running any DPS numbers for a level 70 build?
This is the Talent Calculator I have been experimenting with; WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator There are some interesting choices for PvE Survival. I for one am debating the worth of talents like "Hunting Party" and "Sniper Training" because of the sacrifices that would have to be made in the other trees. The possible loss of talents like "Improved Aspect of the Hawk" or "Mortal Shots". |
I was considering somthing like THIS.
I was considering this type of build:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
|
Originally Posted by Blaize
I was considering this type of build:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator |
|
Originally Posted by Blaize
I was considering this type of build:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator |
The debate for me is Mortal Shots, I would love to see how much DPS it is actually worth. Master Tactician is still kind of underwhelming to me, and I don't see much sense in going too deep into Survival and not getting Hunting Party. The new Careful Aim looks very good, 100% attack power from int is about 300 ap raid buffed. I personally have been wishing for a pushback talent for a long time. Essentially every boss in Sunwell has some kind of AoE and the loss in dps due to pushback is reasonable.
Somehow I missed that Careful Aim gives 100% now, good catch. Taking that into consideration I have revised my spec. Assuming that we keep bringing all the shadow priests we usually do and I don't need Hunting Party I'd go with this. That would give me the most amount of haste procs since I still don't have my DST. If the raid decided that they did want the mana return, I suppose I'd go with something like this. Looks like we'll have to do some testing in the PTR coming up to test out Careful Aim vs. Mortal Shots to get a better picture of which has more benifit.
At the risk of repeating info, here's my experiences as Surv hunter, and adjusting macros to work with the spec.
The guild is working towards KJ in Sunwell, Surv was seen as the bitch spec no one wanted to take. But to maximise for the DPS race on KJ, several of us have taken buff specs in order to win. This includes a BF warrior and imp EA Rogue. I'm at the level where 2:1/3:2/1:1 works the best, so I use the Manito 2-part macro. I have around 150ms-250ms latency during prime time and run about 5% haste with a 3.00 sec bow.
The biggest difference I've found with going from BM to surv, is the problem of chaining steadies, which others have reiterated on this thread. The two biggest causes are where KC locks up autos, and boss fights which have some element of pushback. For the most part, the KC issue has been resolved by simply making sure that your KC line in the macro is between the "/cast !autoshot" and "/cast Steady Shot" lines. This has solved that problem for me completely. As for pushback, there really is no way around it other than being aware of where you are in your rotation and letting off the spam until your auto fires off.
Hope this helps those in high end content.
The guild is working towards KJ in Sunwell, Surv was seen as the bitch spec no one wanted to take. But to maximise for the DPS race on KJ, several of us have taken buff specs in order to win. This includes a BF warrior and imp EA Rogue. I'm at the level where 2:1/3:2/1:1 works the best, so I use the Manito 2-part macro. I have around 150ms-250ms latency during prime time and run about 5% haste with a 3.00 sec bow.
The biggest difference I've found with going from BM to surv, is the problem of chaining steadies, which others have reiterated on this thread. The two biggest causes are where KC locks up autos, and boss fights which have some element of pushback. For the most part, the KC issue has been resolved by simply making sure that your KC line in the macro is between the "/cast !autoshot" and "/cast Steady Shot" lines. This has solved that problem for me completely. As for pushback, there really is no way around it other than being aware of where you are in your rotation and letting off the spam until your auto fires off.
Hope this helps those in high end content.
Easy question, is there any way to tell how often EW procs? I've been looking at recount and WWS and don't see a debuff uptime, only a DOT uptime, and seeing as EW is not a DOT.... doesn't show up.
Anyone find a way to figure it out other than guessing?
Anyone find a way to figure it out other than guessing?
Just an FYI for those who haven't read the news yet, it seems in the expansion expose weakness will be a self buff only. Guess we'll have to see if the damage buffs and hunting party will keep survival viable. The wording of the announcement with regards to raid regen talents like hunting party is also confusing, I wonder if they are going to keep in the energy/rage/runic regen.
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Originally Posted by Rivkah
Just an FYI for those who haven't read the news yet, it seems in the expansion expose weakness will be a self buff only. Guess we'll have to see if the damage buffs and hunting party will keep survival viable. The wording of the announcement with regards to raid regen talents like hunting party is also confusing, I wonder if they are going to keep in the energy/rage/runic regen.
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Hunting Party will also only affect the 10 lowest (same as VT). I can't believe this is happening. I have been survival for a long time and I never wanted to go back. Looks like our days are numbered. I suppose I'll have to go farm up some badges for the xbow now. This is very dissapointing.
Here's the post for those who haven't seen it yet: WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking
Here's the post for those who haven't seen it yet: WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking
For WotLK, I was thinking this build would be best for maximising personal DPS along with keeping EW up at all times.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
I find that IAotH is rather invaluable to my own personal DPS. I was 0/27/34 before I went into SWP and my DPS was below 1400. After I respected and did some testing, I found my dps was alittle higher, sitting around 1600+. I couldn't find any link to any of my more recent raids WWS to show the differences.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator
I find that IAotH is rather invaluable to my own personal DPS. I was 0/27/34 before I went into SWP and my DPS was below 1400. After I respected and did some testing, I found my dps was alittle higher, sitting around 1600+. I couldn't find any link to any of my more recent raids WWS to show the differences.
3/3 focussed aim? Why? Sure, steady shot is a big part of our DPS, but with the unlinking going on of steady and auto, it's not SUCH a huge thing. 5/5 lethal shots and mortal shots is a requirement for any hunter, because 5% passive crit and 30% added crit damage are worth more than basically any other talent you could put the points into.
Lock and Load has been proven to be a good talent even if you never trap anything, and even with 'just' arcane shot, getting three AS in three GCDs for free is an impressive amount of damage, considering that serpent sting will actually be viable damage with it's increased scalar.
Sniper Training has also been proven to be not worth the points due to buff range problems as well as simpler problems such as merely maintaining a constant 30 yards from the boss- considering some bosses such as Supremus, being exactly 30 yards away or more but still within 41 yards can be a downright impossibility some times.
And with the autoshot delinking, IAotH becomes less important, meaning that it can be removed to make room for more important talents, even if you miss out on (what I see as important) Explosive Shot and TNT- but they can be picked up come WotLK and more levelling.
Something like this Marksmanship 13 / Survival 48 build.
Lock and Load has been proven to be a good talent even if you never trap anything, and even with 'just' arcane shot, getting three AS in three GCDs for free is an impressive amount of damage, considering that serpent sting will actually be viable damage with it's increased scalar.
Sniper Training has also been proven to be not worth the points due to buff range problems as well as simpler problems such as merely maintaining a constant 30 yards from the boss- considering some bosses such as Supremus, being exactly 30 yards away or more but still within 41 yards can be a downright impossibility some times.
And with the autoshot delinking, IAotH becomes less important, meaning that it can be removed to make room for more important talents, even if you miss out on (what I see as important) Explosive Shot and TNT- but they can be picked up come WotLK and more levelling.
Something like this Marksmanship 13 / Survival 48 build.
Does anyone think the change to Master Tactican will make this skill worthwhile to have?
Essentially they changed it so now it has a 10% chance (up from 6%) to proc. Thoughts?
Essentially they changed it so now it has a 10% chance (up from 6%) to proc. Thoughts?
Yes, Master Tactician is now better than Lethal Shots. All 40+ survival hunters should have it.
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Originally Posted by Crydak
So far I'm seeing that this is currently a 2:1 Shot Rotation? |
ps Signing your posts on this forum is a no no
I thought it would be a 2:1 rotation cause of the amount in percent (66%:33%)
And what do you mean with signing?
Finally would you suggest more Haste or less?Or a slower Weapon like Illi Bow?
And what do you mean with signing?
Finally would you suggest more Haste or less?Or a slower Weapon like Illi Bow?
No, the established naming convention for the rotations (1:1, 2:1, 3:2, 1:1.5 etc) describe the ratio of the number of special attacks to autoattacks. Not the ratio of the damage they do. (confusingly, the special attacks is after the colon for the 1:1.5 rotation)
Steady shot does more damage than autoshot, especially with 4/6 T6. Thus the rotation you did was probably closer to 3:2. You can see the amount of shots you did in Recount by clicking on the damage bar, which opens a new window with details on your attacks.
not signing posts (ie not putting your name at the bottom) is one of the forum rules here
Steady shot does more damage than autoshot, especially with 4/6 T6. Thus the rotation you did was probably closer to 3:2. You can see the amount of shots you did in Recount by clicking on the damage bar, which opens a new window with details on your attacks.
not signing posts (ie not putting your name at the bottom) is one of the forum rules here
I wonder if my "closer" 3:2 Rotation is that bad,causing me only 1,7k dps at Kil'Jaeden and 2,0k on Brutallus,so I wanted to check if my Rota is right.
OK guys, I hope someone can give me some advice on increasing my dps. My giuld is planning on starting the T5 content and I would like to up my persoanl dps as well as raid contribution. Check out my gear below, a recent WWS from Kara and my macro below. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Wow Web Stats (I had my best DPS during the last Shade fight)
The World of Warcraft Armory
#showtooltip Auto Shot
castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Wow Web Stats (I had my best DPS during the last Shade fight)
The World of Warcraft Armory
#showtooltip Auto Shot
castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Last edited by Idumuje : Yesterday at 6:32 PM.